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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris looks as though he’s survived the Cummings lockdown road

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris looks as though he’s survived the Cummings lockdown road trip – but at what price?

The above is one of the videos now on YouTube with the words of the Proclaimers 500 Miles song adapted for Mr Cummings and his drive to Durham during the lockdown. This events of the past week have dominated the headlines and become a big talking point.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited May 2020
    Next Cabinet Minister out -- note that the "reshuffle" rules vary from place to place so check if you get dead-heat rules on everyone the same day, or the first announced wins.

    Robert Jenrick is 20/1 with Starsports (first announced) and Paddy Power (dead-heat). Jenrick is the Housing Secretary who broke the guidelines to drive to his second third home, and who this week had his decision on a housing development overturned. Coincidentally, Jenrick's decision would have saved a Party donor £40 million. The news got lost in the row over eye tests up north but that is two decisions that in normal times might have provoked an exchange of letters. We are not living in normal times so do not lose the rent money!

    From The Independent (other newspapers are available):
    Robert Jenrick approved the Westferry Printworks development in east London on 14 January, a day before new rules would have increased the owners’ costs by up to £50m.

    The site belongs to Northern & Shell, the company owned by former Daily Express proprietor Richard Desmond, and which donated £10,000 to the Conservative Party in September 2017.

    Tower Hamlets council has now overturned Mr Jenrick’s decision to approve an expanded version of the scheme that included 1,500 homes, which went against the advice of planning inspectors. The council launched the challenge in March on the basis that Mr Jenrick’s decision appeared to have been “influenced by a desire to help the developer to avoid a financial liability”.

    The government has now accepted that Mr Jenrick acted unlawfully, the council said in a statement released on Friday. Whitehall backed down to avoid having to release documents that may have shed light on how the housing secretary reached his decision, the authority said.

    It said: “Following an agreement between all parties –- the secretary of state, the developer, the Greater London Authority and Tower Hamlets council -– the courts have agreed to a consent order quashing the decision.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/robert-jenrick-bias-tower-hamlets-westferry-printworks-richard-desmond-northern-shell-a9534941.html
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    FPT -- USA Dem VP nominee -- Harris into 11/8 or evens; Catherine Cortez Masto withdraws from Biden VP consideration (ht @Nigelb)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    FPT -- USA Dem VP nominee -- Harris into 11/8 or evens; Catherine Cortez Masto withdraws from Biden VP consideration (ht @Nigelb)

    I think this is also of interest. As well as demonstrating a moral bankruptcy when it comes to the administration of justice, it suggests Republicans might be giving up on the prospects of winning in November.

    Graham urges senior judges to step aside so Trump, GOP can replace them
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/499957-graham-urges-senior-judges-to-step-aside-ahead-of-november-election
    ... "This is an historic opportunity. We’ve put over 200 federal judges on the bench. I think 1 in 5 federal judges are Trump appointees. ... So if you’re a circuit judge in your mid-60s, late 60s, you can take senior status; now would be a good time to do that if you want to make sure the judiciary is right of center. This is a good time to do it," Graham added.

    He also encouraged judges who want to make sure a successor can be confirmed by the November election to announce their plans to retire sooner rather than later, adding that he would "need some time" to get them through the committee....

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Next Cabinet Minister out -- note that the "reshuffle" rules vary from place to place so check if you get dead-heat rules on everyone the same day, or the first announced wins.

    Robert Jenrick is 20/1 with Starsports (first announced) and Paddy Power (dead-heat). ...

    Good odds, but might get lost in the current news cycle.
    (And yes, it’s pretty low behaviour.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    This is disturbing. As the thread goes on to point out, these numbers are significantly below every scientific consensus.

    Incompetence is possible, but so big of a error this far into the pandemic seems unlikely. Political pressure to massage the numbers ? But who would believe that would turn out well for them ?

    https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1263605696844623873
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    IshmaelZ said:

    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.

    Just to clarify this, the size of his majority is 80 but that means it 'only' takes 40 of his MPs to rebel and vote against for the majority to be overturned.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Nigelb said:

    FPT -- USA Dem VP nominee -- Harris into 11/8 or evens; Catherine Cortez Masto withdraws from Biden VP consideration (ht @Nigelb)

    I think this is also of interest. As well as demonstrating a moral bankruptcy when it comes to the administration of justice, it suggests Republicans might be giving up on the prospects of winning in November.

    Graham urges senior judges to step aside so Trump, GOP can replace them
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/499957-graham-urges-senior-judges-to-step-aside-ahead-of-november-election
    ... "This is an historic opportunity. We’ve put over 200 federal judges on the bench. I think 1 in 5 federal judges are Trump appointees. ... So if you’re a circuit judge in your mid-60s, late 60s, you can take senior status; now would be a good time to do that if you want to make sure the judiciary is right of center. This is a good time to do it," Graham added.

    He also encouraged judges who want to make sure a successor can be confirmed by the November election to announce their plans to retire sooner rather than later, adding that he would "need some time" to get them through the committee....

    It's also an appeal to the fairly large numbers of voters whose main motivation for voting is getting conservative judges appointed.
    But yes, Republicans recognise that their policies are unpopular - they've already seen how gerrymandering and voter suppresssion can't keep their majority in the House. Even the gerrymandered Senate is at risk (although it's hard to see the conservatives losing their undemocratic majority there any time soon). The presidency is obviously up for grabs, despite the Republicans' unfair advantage in the electoral college. Trying to ensure extreme conservative majorities in the judiciary (who are increasingly unrepresentative of the American population) for decades to come is their last line of defence.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.

    Just to clarify this, the size of his majority is 80 but that means it 'only' takes 40 of his MPs to rebel and vote against for the majority to be overturned.
    Obviously. There is no question of overturning a vote on this anyway, so the size is merely an interesting-ish coincidence.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    ydoethur said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?

    From the bookies perhaps?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    I'm sorry to report that there's been a Madonna.

    https://twitter.com/weehalfpintt/status/1266177368730763269?s=20

    (Apologies also if this belittles the disgusting behaviour of the Minnieapolis police which doesn't seem yo have had much discussion here. The reaction in the US seems to indicate that the racial divide is as stark as ever)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?

    From the bookies perhaps?
    Yes, being rather more intelligent than Dominic Cummings and not needing an eye test, I got that far. I was wondering which one.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    As an aside on Next Out betting, price differences between bookmakers suggest there must be value somewhere but in recent experience can mean it is a crapshoot. What we do not know is Boris's attitude to reshuffles; Cameron famously left ministers in place unless his hand was forced.

    To illustrate the differences, here are the prices from Betfair Sportsbook (so presumably Paddy Power as well), Ladbrokes and Starsports respectively. Other bookmakers are available. Ministers are sorted by shortest price available. Note also the books do not even agree if Amanda Milling (Minister without portfolio) is in the Cabinet, and two of them misspell George Eustice. Both these are encouraging signs for punters as they indicate a lack of research by odds compilers. All of which said, I'm not playing.

    Priti Patel 3/1, 3/1, 6/1
    George Eustice 10/1, 12/1, 5/1
    Gavin Williamson 12/1, 12/1, 7/1
    Therese Coffey 20/1, 20/1, 7/1
    Boris Johnson 8/1, 8/1, 10/1
    Liz Truss 20/1, 16/1, 8/1
    Robert Buckland 12/1, 20/1, 10/1
    Matt Hancock 14/1, 12/1, 10/1
    Ben Wallace 12/1, 12/1, 33/1
    Simon Hart 18/1, 16/1, 12/1
    Michael Gove 16/1, 25/1, 12/1
    Grant Shapps 16/1, 16/1, 14/1
    Alister Jack 20/1, 20/1, 14/1
    Anne-Marie Trevelyan 16/1, 16/1, 20/1
    Alok Sharma 20/1, 20/1, 16/1
    Brandon Lewis 20/1, 20/1, 40/1
    Oliver Dowden 20/1, 20/1, 20/1
    Robert Jenrick 20/1, 10/1, 20/1
    Dominic Raab 25/1, 20/1, 20/1
    Rishi Sunak 25/1, 20/1, 25/1
    Baroness Evans 33/1, 33/1, 20/1
    Amanda Milling unq, unq, 25/1

    Keen readers may have spotted that I do not know how to format tables!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited May 2020
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT -- USA Dem VP nominee -- Harris into 11/8 or evens; Catherine Cortez Masto withdraws from Biden VP consideration (ht @Nigelb)

    I think this is also of interest. As well as demonstrating a moral bankruptcy when it comes to the administration of justice, it suggests Republicans might be giving up on the prospects of winning in November.

    Graham urges senior judges to step aside so Trump, GOP can replace them
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/499957-graham-urges-senior-judges-to-step-aside-ahead-of-november-election
    ... "This is an historic opportunity. We’ve put over 200 federal judges on the bench. I think 1 in 5 federal judges are Trump appointees. ... So if you’re a circuit judge in your mid-60s, late 60s, you can take senior status; now would be a good time to do that if you want to make sure the judiciary is right of center. This is a good time to do it," Graham added.

    He also encouraged judges who want to make sure a successor can be confirmed by the November election to announce their plans to retire sooner rather than later, adding that he would "need some time" to get them through the committee....

    It's also an appeal to the fairly large numbers of voters whose main motivation for voting is getting conservative judges appointed.
    But yes, Republicans recognise that their policies are unpopular - they've already seen how gerrymandering and voter suppresssion can't keep their majority in the House. Even the gerrymandered Senate is at risk (although it's hard to see the conservatives losing their undemocratic majority there any time soon). The presidency is obviously up for grabs, despite the Republicans' unfair advantage in the electoral college. Trying to ensure extreme conservative majorities in the judiciary (who are increasingly unrepresentative of the American population) for decades to come is their last line of defence.

    Not their last, perhaps even one of their first. Remember that Republican Senators refused to consider Barack Obama's nominee to the Supreme Court, leaving the seat empty till after the election and inauguration of Trump.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick_Garland_Supreme_Court_nomination

    Some never-Trump Republicans have been working on electing right wing judges for years. For instance, Rick Wilson, who wrote Everything Trump Touches Dies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Wilson_(political_consultant)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited May 2020

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    Like the man himself and his blog (and his statement), you can retroactively edit to make the narrative fit the events...
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
    I suspect even Bad Al Campbell is quietly applauding. "Oh, well played...I couldn't have done it better myself...."

    Of course, Plato pointed out that Donald Trump was making the right noises in the right places to get elected. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.

    Just to clarify this, the size of his majority is 80 but that means it 'only' takes 40 of his MPs to rebel and vote against for the majority to be overturned.
    And why would they do that?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    They printed a story that was factually accurate and a vital matter of public health.

    Sounds like they got it spot on...
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    If you are alone and self isolating because of a severe clinical vulnerability how will you feel tonight as Britain's newspapers revel in the end of lockdown and "firing up the barbecue"?

    We were all in together in a national effort until we weren't.


    That was always going to be the case. There's no way the government could keep the whole nation locked down because a few million people are more susceptible to serious conditions from getting the virus. It would be unfeasible both economically and socially. It's sad for those who aren't able to benefit from the relaxed rules, however, that doesn't mean the rules shouldn't be relaxed where they can be. The relaxation seems eminently sensible.

    I'm worried that it is being rolled out a week too early before proper contact tracing is in place though, and that seems to be based on the government's need to change the story from Dom.
    The harsh truth is that this is a virus which is only really dangerous for a small percentage of people: those with serious health conditions and the very elderly. Hardly anyone under 50 with no health conditions has died from it.
    Indeed. I wonder how well known that is? My sense is people are catching on. There is some crazy stat that healthy under-60s are at more risk of falling down the stairs than from Covid-19. Which sounds bonkers, but is apparently the case.
    This is continually repeated as if it is a sensible argument against lockdown.

    People do not fall down the stairs less becaus of corons virus. People under 60 have died, these are people whose skills need to be replaced. People under 60 still get very ill and have put a big burdon on the NHS. The prime minister is in this category, and every person of working age unable to work because of the disease is a hit to the economy. Do not forget the personal pain and anguish caused by deaths and illnesses regardless of the victim's age.

    The UK has been hit by this virus, but has avoided disaster, ... just. The reason for this has been the lockdown.

    It is reasonable now to slowly wind the restrictions down as the infection rate is decreasing. The reason for this wind down is NOT because people are more at risk of falling down stairs than dying of covid.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
    I suspect even Bad Al Campbell is quietly applauding. "Oh, well played...I couldn't have done it better myself...."

    Of course, Plato pointed out that Donald Trump was making the right noises in the right places to get elected. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
    Afaicr she also said that the great man wouldn't be POTUS (no doubt due to the assaults of the libtard MSM), so..
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    If you really think this has been the darkest time for government you are going to be disappointed. But in a way you sort of have a point: if Boris does more than one thing at once it can be impossible to judge whether the point of thing A was to dead cat thing B or the otherwise deranged thing B had no purpose except to draw attention away from thing A.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
    I suspect even Bad Al Campbell is quietly applauding. "Oh, well played...I couldn't have done it better myself...."

    Of course, Plato pointed out that Donald Trump was making the right noises in the right places to get elected. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
    Afaicr she also said that the great man wouldn't be POTUS (no doubt due to the assaults of the libtard MSM), so..
    She didn't think he'd manage to pull it off. But what she was highlighting made it far less of a punt for some to back Trump winning Michigan....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Scott_xP said:

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    They printed a story that was factually accurate and a vital matter of public health.

    Sounds like they got it spot on...
    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    Many of the journalists concerned will of course have second homes and not been able to go to them because they were ordered to stay at their primary residence. Now they’re told, oops, that wasn’t the case, you could have gone to your nice house in the Chilterns rather than a smelly, cramped, overheated flat in Camden, if you’d come up with a wildly implausible claim about childcare.

    That probably isn’t helping.

    But really, the reason they are angry is because everyone is angry. The Cummings story feeds into every single negative narrative about the Tories. Their wealth, their arrogance, their elitism, the difference between their lives and the lives of most people. Most of all, however, it builds on the idea that they think rules only apply to other people, and that’s never a good look whoever and whenever is in power.

    This is very much a dodgy dossier moment. Nobody was prosecuted, although in the end it cost Campbell his job, and the judge exonerated him, accepting his version of events. But how many people still think Campbell lied on oath all the way through? It will dog him for the rest of his life.

    And in a way, this is worse - although arguably it shouldn’t be - because lockdown and quarantine affected everyone in the country directly in a way the Iraq war didn’t.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    I am not sure what you suggest was his master plan all along. You are right however that he has used adversity to his own advantage in an uncomfortably cynical way. He has been ably assisted by his wingman going along with the subterfuge.

  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    IshmaelZ said:

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    If you really think this has been the darkest time for government you are going to be disappointed. But in a way you sort of have a point: if Boris does more than one thing at once it can be impossible to judge whether the point of thing A was to dead cat thing B or the otherwise deranged thing B had no purpose except to draw attention away from thing A.
    Spot on, the economic crisis will be far worse than the effect of the virus so far.

    In 6 months time this will be the most unpopular government in history and there's nothing Boris can do about it
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?

    From the bookies perhaps?
    Yes, being rather more intelligent than Dominic Cummings and not needing an eye test, I got that far. I was wondering which one.
    According to Oddschecker, the last of the 11/10 Labour disappeared three weeks ago.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Scott_xP said:
    And the new problem for the government - where previously it was only hardened cynics like me that would have doubted them, after Barnard Castle everyone is automatically going to assume they’re lying about everything.

    Any benefit of any doubt has not so much gone as been fired into space from a giant cannon wrapped around a thermonuclear device that then detonated.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited May 2020
    ydoethur said:

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    Many of the journalists concerned will of course have second homes and not been able to go to them because they were ordered to stay at their primary residence. Now they’re told, oops, that wasn’t the case, you could have gone to your nice house in the Chilterns rather than a smelly, cramped, overheated flat in Camden, if you’d come up with a wildly implausible claim about childcare.

    That probably isn’t helping.

    But really, the reason they are angry is because everyone is angry. The Cummings story feeds into every single negative narrative about the Tories. Their wealth, their arrogance, their elitism, the difference between their lives and the lives of most people. Most of all, however, it builds on the idea that they think rules only apply to other people, and that’s never a good look whoever and whenever is in power.

    This is very much a dodgy dossier moment. Nobody was prosecuted, although in the end it cost Campbell his job, and the judge exonerated him, accepting his version of events. But how many people still think Campbell lied on oath all the way through? It will dog him for the rest of his life.

    And in a way, this is worse - although arguably it shouldn’t be - because lockdown and quarantine affected everyone in the country directly in a way the Iraq war didn’t.
    By Al Campbell's dictum suggested that the man at the centre of the scandal should have gone if it was still in the news after seven days. I think Cummings was up there for nine or more, and I suspect that in a sense the story will now never go away.

    A huge amount of political capital has been expended. For what?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Scott_xP said:

    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.

    Well, of course it shouldn’t.

    But because of the retrospective and novel reinterpretation of the rules, it undoubtedly will.

    We have gone from ‘this is what you must do,’ to ‘this is what would help. But if you really want to do something else you can if you think it’s right.’
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Thread by Penslyvanian legislator

    https://twitter.com/BrianSimsPA/status/1265787518974377991?s=19

    Important state for the upcoming general election
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    coach said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.

    Just to clarify this, the size of his majority is 80 but that means it 'only' takes 40 of his MPs to rebel and vote against for the majority to be overturned.
    And why would they do that?
    Good morning everybody. And a fine spring morning it is. Here, anyway!

    I suggest that if we appear to be getting to a situation where the Tories are going to get an electoral hammering, then some at least MP's for (once) Red Wall seats may decide to rebel, reasoning that they just might save themselves if they appear to be 'putting their constituents first', rather than party loyalty. They won't all be able to do a runner for a less endangered seat, as David Amess did in 1979.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    edited May 2020

    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....

    Read some of the 4000 replies to this

    https://twitter.com/garystreeterSWD/status/1266047678070296576
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
    I suspect even Bad Al Campbell is quietly applauding. "Oh, well played...I couldn't have done it better myself...."

    Of course, Plato pointed out that Donald Trump was making the right noises in the right places to get elected. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
    Afaicr she also said that the great man wouldn't be POTUS (no doubt due to the assaults of the libtard MSM), so..
    She didn't think he'd manage to pull it off. But what she was highlighting made it far less of a punt for some to back Trump winning Michigan....
    If this has been declared National Aftertiming Day, I backed Trump to be President, partly as a result of Plato's incessant posting of everything she found on Twitter and Facebook, none of which she appeared to have read. Plato herself rated Hillary the most likely winner, with Trump a 1 in 3 chance iirc (in answer to a direct question).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?

    From the bookies perhaps?
    Yes, being rather more intelligent than Dominic Cummings and not needing an eye test, I got that far. I was wondering which one.
    According to Oddschecker, the last of the 11/10 Labour disappeared three weeks ago.
    Quite.

    To be honest, looking at those odds I’m not currently tempted by any of them. If the Conservatives go to 2-1 for most seats, that would probably be value but not at evens. 11-8 on is rather generous for Labour though even given the Cummings fiasco.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    They printed a story that was factually accurate and a vital matter of public health.

    Sounds like they got it spot on...
    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....
    You have gone from thought provoking to Brexit babbling fantasy in less than a handful of posts.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250

    coach said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.

    Just to clarify this, the size of his majority is 80 but that means it 'only' takes 40 of his MPs to rebel and vote against for the majority to be overturned.
    And why would they do that?
    Good morning everybody. And a fine spring morning it is. Here, anyway!

    I suggest that if we appear to be getting to a situation where the Tories are going to get an electoral hammering, then some at least MP's for (once) Red Wall seats may decide to rebel, reasoning that they just might save themselves if they appear to be 'putting their constituents first', rather than party loyalty. They won't all be able to do a runner for a less endangered seat, as David Amess did in 1979.
    Fanciful I'm afraid. Those new MPs will do exactly what they're told, you know it and so do they, we're talking about the Conservative Party not 16 year olds organising a house party
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    coach said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    If you really think this has been the darkest time for government you are going to be disappointed. But in a way you sort of have a point: if Boris does more than one thing at once it can be impossible to judge whether the point of thing A was to dead cat thing B or the otherwise deranged thing B had no purpose except to draw attention away from thing A.
    Spot on, the economic crisis will be far worse than the effect of the virus so far.

    In 6 months time this will be the most unpopular government in history and there's nothing Boris can do about it
    It’s also going to hit hardest those areas most reliant on manufacturing and trade - the Midlands, the North of England and North Wales.

    In other words, those areas where Conservative support is at its newest and flakiest.

    I wonder, for starters, what will happen to Jaguar Land Rover and JCB, who between them dominate pretty much the whole economy of Staffordshire outside Burton.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.

    Well, of course it shouldn’t.

    But because of the retrospective and novel reinterpretation of the rules, it undoubtedly will.

    We have gone from ‘this is what you must do,’ to ‘this is what would help. But if you really want to do something else you can if you think it’s right.’
    Only a fool would use it as an excuse to ignore the rules, but only a fool would fail to exercise their own judgemnet. Cummings has considerably extended the scope for such judgement to be exercised.

    That's ok with me, because my judgements fine. How's yours?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    They printed a story that was factually accurate and a vital matter of public health.

    Sounds like they got it spot on...
    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....
    The 20,000 dead in care homes have not quietly become undead while our attention was elsewhere, though, and we have not quietly slipped ten places down the deaths per million leader board. Those issues will not go away. If your theory is right Dom has bought a ten day reprieve at the cost of painting himself and Boris as incompetent liars.

    This is mere fluff of course, but so are other things. Boris has lost at least as much ground as he gained by coming back from the dead and naming his sprog after the doctors who brought him back. And while all this happens SKS grows in stature by keeping still and doing nothing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited May 2020

    coach said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mere survival was always guaranteed but the cost has been huge. This will be remembered. The greatest loss is of authority. Last September Johnson withdrew the whip from 21 MPs. That is now outweighed by the fact that 80 odd MPs (the size of his majority) have defied him with, presumably, impunity by calling for Cummings to go, unless of course we now get a weekend of the long knives.

    Just to clarify this, the size of his majority is 80 but that means it 'only' takes 40 of his MPs to rebel and vote against for the majority to be overturned.
    And why would they do that?
    Good morning everybody. And a fine spring morning it is. Here, anyway!

    I suggest that if we appear to be getting to a situation where the Tories are going to get an electoral hammering, then some at least MP's for (once) Red Wall seats may decide to rebel, reasoning that they just might save themselves if they appear to be 'putting their constituents first', rather than party loyalty. They won't all be able to do a runner for a less endangered seat, as David Amess did in 1979.
    Do you mean 1997?

    Edit - would be quite amusing though to see some genuinely independent MPs in those seats, rather than party patsies that too many of them had to put up with (with honourable exceptions like Bolsover).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Scott_xP said:

    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....

    Read some of the 4000 replies to this

    https://twitter.com/garystreeterSWD/status/1266047678070296576
    over 5000 replies and none of the ones I saw match his desire..
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    ydoethur said:

    coach said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    If you really think this has been the darkest time for government you are going to be disappointed. But in a way you sort of have a point: if Boris does more than one thing at once it can be impossible to judge whether the point of thing A was to dead cat thing B or the otherwise deranged thing B had no purpose except to draw attention away from thing A.
    Spot on, the economic crisis will be far worse than the effect of the virus so far.

    In 6 months time this will be the most unpopular government in history and there's nothing Boris can do about it
    It’s also going to hit hardest those areas most reliant on manufacturing and trade - the Midlands, the North of England and North Wales.

    In other words, those areas where Conservative support is at its newest and flakiest.

    I wonder, for starters, what will happen to Jaguar Land Rover and JCB, who between them dominate pretty much the whole economy of Staffordshire outside Burton.
    Spot on, there'll be examples everywhere. No idea how they'll respond but from a govt point of view the problems haven't even started.

    I suspect that Starmer and his mob aren't savvy enough to come up with an alternative so it could be worse for them
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited May 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.

    Well, of course it shouldn’t.

    But because of the retrospective and novel reinterpretation of the rules, it undoubtedly will.

    We have gone from ‘this is what you must do,’ to ‘this is what would help. But if you really want to do something else you can if you think it’s right.’
    Yes, that is the key point. It is not that millions of people will rise up and break lockdown to spite Dominic Cummings but that in order to excuse Cummings, the government (and even Eustice as quoted) is now saying that the rules are only guidelines that can be varied whenever your particular circumstances and your common sense suggest an alternative is appropriate.

    From Monday we can have six people round for a barbecue. But Sunday evening is almost Monday. And surely nine are allowed if we divide them into two groups. That sort of thing is the danger.

    ETA I see this point has been made already; never mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.

    Well, of course it shouldn’t.

    But because of the retrospective and novel reinterpretation of the rules, it undoubtedly will.

    We have gone from ‘this is what you must do,’ to ‘this is what would help. But if you really want to do something else you can if you think it’s right.’
    Only a fool would use it as an excuse to ignore the rules, but only a fool would fail to exercise their own judgemnet. Cummings has considerably extended the scope for such judgement to be exercised.

    That's ok with me, because my judgements fine. How's yours?
    The problem is that if the judgement of Cummings is good enough, so is the judgement of absolutely anyone.

    I think your ‘only a fool’ remarks get to the nub of the problem though.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?

    From the bookies perhaps?
    Yes, being rather more intelligent than Dominic Cummings and not needing an eye test, I got that far. I was wondering which one.
    According to Oddschecker, the last of the 11/10 Labour disappeared three weeks ago.
    Quite.

    To be honest, looking at those odds I’m not currently tempted by any of them. If the Conservatives go to 2-1 for most seats, that would probably be value but not at evens. 11-8 on is rather generous for Labour though even given the Cummings fiasco.
    Particularly after today, when we remain locked in whilst Boris is preparing for an England only piss-up down the pub.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
    I suspect even Bad Al Campbell is quietly applauding. "Oh, well played...I couldn't have done it better myself...."

    Of course, Plato pointed out that Donald Trump was making the right noises in the right places to get elected. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
    Afaicr she also said that the great man wouldn't be POTUS (no doubt due to the assaults of the libtard MSM), so..
    She didn't think he'd manage to pull it off. But what she was highlighting made it far less of a punt for some to back Trump winning Michigan....
    If this has been declared National Aftertiming Day, I backed Trump to be President, partly as a result of Plato's incessant posting of everything she found on Twitter and Facebook, none of which she appeared to have read. Plato herself rated Hillary the most likely winner, with Trump a 1 in 3 chance iirc (in answer to a direct question).
    So Plato was suggesting odds close to those of the market? Ye just can't pay for insight like that.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Australia news -- HMQ's letters about the sacking of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam can be opened, following a court ruling.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-52844272
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.

    Well, of course it shouldn’t.

    But because of the retrospective and novel reinterpretation of the rules, it undoubtedly will.

    We have gone from ‘this is what you must do,’ to ‘this is what would help. But if you really want to do something else you can if you think it’s right.’
    Yes, that is the key point. It is not that millions of people will rise up and break lockdown to spite Dominic Cummings but that in order to excuse Cummings, the government (and even Eustice as quoted) is now saying that the rules are only guidelines that can be varied whenever your particular circumstances and your common sense suggest an alternative is appropriate.

    From Monday we can have six people round for a barbecue. But Sunday evening is almost Monday. And surely nine are allowed if we divide them into two groups. That sort of thing is the danger.

    ETA I see this point has been made already; never mind.
    Sunday is also the last day of half term. Even under these strange circumstances that will surely have a bearing on events.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 694
    I've tried to understand how Cummings could have "wargamed" his trip to political advantage but I am afraid I really can't see it. Boris now looks as if he is too dependent on Dom to sack him; as one person put on Twitter: "Boris will not sack Dom for the same reason that Orville never sacked Keith Harris." Boris is now seen as Dom's stooge. Plus, Dom, the great brain behind Brexit, is now seen by many as a Mr. Magoo character who takes his family on a 60 mile trip to test his eyesight. There was a cartoon on one of the threads yesterday which showed Dom running away from a car crash carrying Boris as a baby in a child's car seat.

    If the economy bounces back with a vengence then this incident will fade in public memory. But if it tanks, then the cartoon of the car crash is likely to become a meme with UK Economy written on the side of the car.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited May 2020

    Australia news -- HMQ's letters about the sacking of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam can be opened, following a court ruling.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-52844272

    My knowledge of Australian history could be written on the back of a fairly small postage stamp, but from what I do know (if it’s correct) I have to say neither Whitlam nor Fraser emerge from that episode with any credit whatsoever - Whitlam for his spoiled child antics before, and Fraser for his cynical behaviour towards Kerr after.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The two are indelibly connected. Many of the normal people most enraged by Cummings actions, and Johnson's failure to sack him, are those who lost loved ones in care homes and were not able to be with them at the end, or were not able to share their grief with family at a funeral.

    These people are possibly going to be a bit less forgiving of mistakes made by the government in relation to care homes now that they know how the government reacts to its senior members breaking its own rules.

    These are not hermetically sealed issues.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    SandraMc said:

    I've tried to understand how Cummings could have "wargamed" his trip to political advantage but I am afraid I really can't see it.

    You just need to rewrite history

    Like he did
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    So 4 days ago Spain took 2,000 off its Covid 19 death figures and yesterday added 12,000 to its tally. And this is a Western democracy. Why anyone believes Country's figures on Covid 19 deaths is beyond me.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    I am also curious whether Dom's hamfisted edit to make him appear smarter than he really is has any impact on peoples' opinion of him

    Not amongst the PB fanbois, obviously, but the public in general, and Tory MPs in particular.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Based on my (solo) trip to the park yesterday, the lockdown is essentially over in terms of voluntarily public compliance. Pretty much all the govt can do now is order things to stay closed/have reduced capacity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    So 4 days ago Spain took 2,000 off its Covid 19 death figures and yesterday added 12,000 to its tally. And this is a Western democracy. Why anyone believes Country's figures on Covid 19 deaths is beyond me.

    Surely nobody does?

    All other considerations aside, we’ll only get a rough idea of the number of deaths in 2-3 years time, when we can see how large the spike in the death rate was above the rolling average either side.

    And in some countries (e.g. China) we won’t even get that, because the figures will have been fiddled, while in others (e.g. Venezuela) it’s most unlikely they’re actually being collated at all outside certain small areas.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Scott_xP said:

    I am also curious whether Dom's hamfisted edit to make him appear smarter than he really is has any impact on peoples' opinion of him

    Not amongst the PB fanbois, obviously, but the public in general, and Tory MPs in particular.

    Want to rewrite history about how he bested your lot to achieve Brexit?

    lol.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Interesting change of tone

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1266255085102751745

    Last weekend, he did nothing wrong, nothing to see here.

    Now, sure he did it, but you shouldn't.

    Well, of course it shouldn’t.

    But because of the retrospective and novel reinterpretation of the rules, it undoubtedly will.

    We have gone from ‘this is what you must do,’ to ‘this is what would help. But if you really want to do something else you can if you think it’s right.’
    Only a fool would use it as an excuse to ignore the rules, but only a fool would fail to exercise their own judgemnet. Cummings has considerably extended the scope for such judgement to be exercised.

    That's ok with me, because my judgements fine. How's yours?
    That would be a killer point if the rules had been set by independent adults in Geneva, let's say, or Brussels - in that case the obligation to obey them would obviously be unaffected by Cummings's failure to obey them. As it is, they are set by the same incompetent liars, Cummings among them, as are quietly breaching them, which makes a much stronger case for questioning them in toto.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The two are indelibly connected. Many of the normal people most enraged by Cummings actions, and Johnson's failure to sack him, are those who lost loved ones in care homes and were not able to be with them at the end, or were not able to share their grief with family at a funeral.

    These people are possibly going to be a bit less forgiving of mistakes made by the government in relation to care homes now that they know how the government reacts to its senior members breaking its own rules.

    These are not hermetically sealed issues.
    You are missing the point. The media went for the non-story of Cummings. They had the care homes....
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The two are indelibly connected. Many of the normal people most enraged by Cummings actions, and Johnson's failure to sack him, are those who lost loved ones in care homes and were not able to be with them at the end, or were not able to share their grief with family at a funeral.

    These people are possibly going to be a bit less forgiving of mistakes made by the government in relation to care homes now that they know how the government reacts to its senior members breaking its own rules.

    These are not hermetically sealed issues.
    You are missing the point. The media went for the non-story of Cummings. They had the care homes....
    Much as you try to spin the Cummings incident as a non-story, it isn’t.


    Care homes will come up as an issue in the inevitable public enquiry
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    You sound like Plato (RIP) carefully painting targets around Donald Trump's tweeted arrows before applauding his genius.

    ETA You are nonetheless right about the effect in distracting attention from real scandals.
    I suspect even Bad Al Campbell is quietly applauding. "Oh, well played...I couldn't have done it better myself...."

    Of course, Plato pointed out that Donald Trump was making the right noises in the right places to get elected. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
    Afaicr she also said that the great man wouldn't be POTUS (no doubt due to the assaults of the libtard MSM), so..
    She didn't think he'd manage to pull it off. But what she was highlighting made it far less of a punt for some to back Trump winning Michigan....
    If this has been declared National Aftertiming Day, I backed Trump to be President, partly as a result of Plato's incessant posting of everything she found on Twitter and Facebook, none of which she appeared to have read. Plato herself rated Hillary the most likely winner, with Trump a 1 in 3 chance iirc (in answer to a direct question).
    So Plato was suggesting odds close to those of the market? Ye just can't pay for insight like that.
    Plato, partly through her obsession with social media, got the Trump phenomenon much quicker than most and posted incessantly that he should be taken seriously when most (including myself) still regarded his campaign as somewhere between a joke and publicity for his TV programs.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....

    Read some of the 4000 replies to this

    https://twitter.com/garystreeterSWD/status/1266047678070296576
    over 5000 replies and none of the ones I saw match his desire..
    If a tweet I have seen is to be believed, and it's a big 'if', which is why I am not sharing it at this stage, then there is more to come on Cummings.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    ydoethur said:

    So 4 days ago Spain took 2,000 off its Covid 19 death figures and yesterday added 12,000 to its tally. And this is a Western democracy. Why anyone believes Country's figures on Covid 19 deaths is beyond me.

    Surely nobody does?

    All other considerations aside, we’ll only get a rough idea of the number of deaths in 2-3 years time, when we can see how large the spike in the death rate was above the rolling average either side.

    And in some countries (e.g. China) we won’t even get that, because the figures will have been fiddled, while in others (e.g. Venezuela) it’s most unlikely they’re actually being collated at all outside certain small areas.
    Do you not look at Scotts continual retweets? We have the highest excess deaths in the world according to all these, even though they are palpable nonsense.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    Scott_xP said:

    I am also curious whether Dom's hamfisted edit to make him appear smarter than he really is has any impact on peoples' opinion of him

    Not amongst the PB fanbois, obviously, but the public in general, and Tory MPs in particular.

    Want to rewrite history about how he bested your lot to achieve Brexit?
    lol.
    Cheating and lying.... Yes indeed. The man is a genius-
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    So 4 days ago Spain took 2,000 off its Covid 19 death figures and yesterday added 12,000 to its tally. And this is a Western democracy. Why anyone believes Country's figures on Covid 19 deaths is beyond me.

    It's not a matter of belief, but of practicalities.

    Every observation, measurement or statistic comes with a degree of error. This error does not, in itself, make the measurement worthless.

    So, we cannot yet be certain whether the death rate is higher in Spain, Italy or the UK, because of the errors. However, we can be certain that the death rate in all three countries is worse than in Germany, despite the errors.

    So we can say useful and consequential things with imperfect data. Why pretend otherwise?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Scott_xP said:
    Have to say that is a rather good headline.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Marquee Mark's general point about the press losing their cool and being unable to see through the issue is pretty much bang on. They've absolutely lost it. Lost. It.

    They printed a story that was factually accurate and a vital matter of public health.

    Sounds like they got it spot on...
    They fell for "Look - bastard Leaver squirrel!". Yeah, their finest hour, sure, uh-huh, yup....
    You have gone from thought provoking to Brexit babbling fantasy in less than a handful of posts.
    Scott_P hardly deserves thought-provoking though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Have to say that is a rather good headline.
    Until you said that, I hadn’t spotted the double meaning!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    So 4 days ago Spain took 2,000 off its Covid 19 death figures and yesterday added 12,000 to its tally. And this is a Western democracy. Why anyone believes Country's figures on Covid 19 deaths is beyond me.

    Well its convenient, isn't it. Suspension of disbelief is easy if it suits your purpose.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eristdoof said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    If you are alone and self isolating because of a severe clinical vulnerability how will you feel tonight as Britain's newspapers revel in the end of lockdown and "firing up the barbecue"?

    We were all in together in a national effort until we weren't.


    That was always going to be the case. There's no way the government could keep the whole nation locked down because a few million people are more susceptible to serious conditions from getting the virus. It would be unfeasible both economically and socially. It's sad for those who aren't able to benefit from the relaxed rules, however, that doesn't mean the rules shouldn't be relaxed where they can be. The relaxation seems eminently sensible.

    I'm worried that it is being rolled out a week too early before proper contact tracing is in place though, and that seems to be based on the government's need to change the story from Dom.
    The harsh truth is that this is a virus which is only really dangerous for a small percentage of people: those with serious health conditions and the very elderly. Hardly anyone under 50 with no health conditions has died from it.
    Indeed. I wonder how well known that is? My sense is people are catching on. There is some crazy stat that healthy under-60s are at more risk of falling down the stairs than from Covid-19. Which sounds bonkers, but is apparently the case.
    This is continually repeated as if it is a sensible argument against lockdown.

    People do not fall down the stairs less becaus of corons virus. People under 60 have died, these are people whose skills need to be replaced. People under 60 still get very ill and have put a big burdon on the NHS. The prime minister is in this category, and every person of working age unable to work because of the disease is a hit to the economy. Do not forget the personal pain and anguish caused by deaths and illnesses regardless of the victim's age.

    The UK has been hit by this virus, but has avoided disaster, ... just. The reason for this has been the lockdown.

    It is reasonable now to slowly wind the restrictions down as the infection rate is decreasing. The reason for this wind down is NOT because people are more at risk of falling down stairs than dying of covid.
    Stay downstairs - Protect the NHS - Save lives

    ?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The two are indelibly connected. Many of the normal people most enraged by Cummings actions, and Johnson's failure to sack him, are those who lost loved ones in care homes and were not able to be with them at the end, or were not able to share their grief with family at a funeral.

    These people are possibly going to be a bit less forgiving of mistakes made by the government in relation to care homes now that they know how the government reacts to its senior members breaking its own rules.

    These are not hermetically sealed issues.
    You are missing the point. The media went for the non-story of Cummings. They had the care homes....
    And nobody can think of two things at one time, or even consecutively. Can't be done.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404

    You are missing the point. The media went for the non-story of Cummings. They had the care homes....

    The point I have been trying to make is that the MSM choose their battle, then flunked it. Now they are retreating in a chaotic rabble.

    This could have been Boris's Stalingrad: from now on the BBC panzers will be in constant retreat towards Broadcasting House.

    (I may have overdone the military metaphors there...)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Scott_xP said:
    We saw exactly the same thing reported in Germany when they eased their lockdown. It turned out not to be true.

    What I think we will see is a slow down in the rate of decline of the virus. Indeed our numbers already show some signs of plateauing. Effective trace, test and isolate will be needed to improve things further and we don't have that yet.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Scott_xP said:

    I am also curious whether Dom's hamfisted edit to make him appear smarter than he really is has any impact on peoples' opinion of him

    Not amongst the PB fanbois, obviously, but the public in general, and Tory MPs in particular.

    Want to rewrite history about how he bested your lot to achieve Brexit?

    lol.
    Do you want to rewrite history about whose lot was bested? Surely it was Conservative government (aka your lot) policy to remain in the EU.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    coach said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    500 Miles - or 20,000 Care-home Dead - which do you think the Government would rather social media were creating memes about?

    The darkest time for government was always going to be those few weeks before they could signal meaningful easing of the lockdown. When the numbers of dead stayed stubbornly high, inexplicable to the casual observor. When everyone was getting listless. Why can't we go out now? Like that bloke I never voted for - and certainly won't be voting for next time....

    It has now dangled the shiny new thing of a weekend BBQ and soon, shopping! Meanwhile, the scary prospect of forensic investigation of care home deaths by the media recedes. Who wants to be reminded of dead old people - when you can form a socially-distanced queue for a sausage in a bun in the sun?

    Brexit Derangement Syndrome. Dom has played it brilliantly to his advantage - by being the ultimate bait. Sure, he will have hated being the guy in the spotlight, rather than the shadows. But, hey, if that is what it took to deflect and get us to the easing of restrictions. He knew it was inevitable the story would come out. Come on Newsnight, come on Today Programme, come on Channel 4 News, come on Guardian, come on SKY - here is my chest. Fire your rubber-tipped arrows at me. Chance of me ending up skewered like St. Sebastian? Nil.

    Classic Dom.

    If you really think this has been the darkest time for government you are going to be disappointed. But in a way you sort of have a point: if Boris does more than one thing at once it can be impossible to judge whether the point of thing A was to dead cat thing B or the otherwise deranged thing B had no purpose except to draw attention away from thing A.
    Spot on, the economic crisis will be far worse than the effect of the virus so far.

    In 6 months time this will be the most unpopular government in history and there's nothing Boris can do about it
    Quite possible, even though people supported the economic response. It's why deferring of any difficult choices will remain the order of the day as long as possible.

    I think longer term the government will be screwed by all this, irrespective of any good or bad things it did. Those will only affect the flavour of any criticism.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Where did you get your odds for the next Welsh Assembly elections?

    From the bookies perhaps?
    Yes, being rather more intelligent than Dominic Cummings and not needing an eye test, I got that far. I was wondering which one.
    You will have stumped him now
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Scott_xP said:

    I am also curious whether Dom's hamfisted edit to make him appear smarter than he really is has any impact on peoples' opinion of him

    Not amongst the PB fanbois, obviously, but the public in general, and Tory MPs in particular.

    Hmm. Those who knew of him and were not fans already thought of him as a rather dim fantasist and raging egomaniac.

    I’d say this isn’t going to make a major change to public views.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Socky said:

    You are missing the point. The media went for the non-story of Cummings. They had the care homes....

    The point I have been trying to make is that the MSM choose their battle, then flunked it. Now they are retreating in a chaotic rabble.

    This could have been Boris's Stalingrad: from now on the BBC panzers will be in constant retreat towards Broadcasting House.

    (I may have overdone the military metaphors there...)
    I think that there is some merit it Mike's thread header. The PM has not emerged from this stronger or undamaged, not at all. But the media has been shown to be impotent and more than a bit incoherent and lacking all sense of perspective. No winners, plenty of losers.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    Scott_xP said:

    "Medical experts getting in touch. Say already seeing rise in cases from relaxing of #lockdown rules & expecting second wave. "Just 2 more weeks & we wld probably have been ok" one says. Lifting too early catastrophic for economy & health."

    I may be a heartless right-winger, but everything is a compromise, and it is the job of politicians not "medical experts" to make that call.

    Yes we may see a 2nd wave, but if it is containable, that is probably the correct trade off in order to get the economy working again.

    To put it another way: extra work now for the NHS to avoid budget cuts later.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Australia news -- HMQ's letters about the sacking of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam can be opened, following a court ruling.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-52844272

    Malcolm Fraser wrote that it was US pressure that got rid of Whitlam
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    edited May 2020
    The Government is correct to think that they've got past the peak of the Cummings story. Most people have filed it as "disgraceful incident" but are probably not interested in picking over more details. Consequently, I expect Conservative poll ratings to stabilise rather than keep dropping.

    The problem is more, as Collins observes, that the Government has lost the air of competence. People will be cautiously pleased by the lockdown relaxations, but inclined to attribute them to Johnson wanting to change the subject rather than the successful nexr stage of a masterplan. If no widespread resurgence of the virus follows, people will move on from that too and we'll be debating economic aftermath and Brexit. But the Government's reserves of credibility have been spent, and the next problem will be hard to handle.

    Speaking of Brexit, my understanding from a Downing Street contact (politics is a small world, even across party) is that the Government is planning on No Deal - not just contingency planning, but actively assuming it. They are encouraging friendly writers to discuss the new freedoms which No Deal will facilitate. Have they thought through the downsides? I really don't think they have.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited May 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    It was inevitable that any decision on lockdown would be attacked as implemented too late or too soon whenever it happened. 2 more weeks and people would have been saying why couldn't you do it 2 weeks sooner.

    So it will once again fall down on what scientific advice the government received as to whether it has acted reasonably, since in the absence of unanimity of opinion, an impossibility, that contrary voices exist doesnt prove anything. What advice led to the decision and what that advice was based on would.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Socky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "Medical experts getting in touch. Say already seeing rise in cases from relaxing of #lockdown rules & expecting second wave. "Just 2 more weeks & we wld probably have been ok" one says. Lifting too early catastrophic for economy & health."

    I may be a heartless right-winger, but everything is a compromise, and it is the job of politicians not "medical experts" to make that call.

    Yes we may see a 2nd wave, but if it is containable, that is probably the correct trade off in order to get the economy working again.

    To put it another way: extra work now for the NHS to avoid budget cuts later.
    More bluntly there is a direct correlation between falls in GDP and suicide rates. Add in the isolation of the lockdown and that feature is going to be greatly exacerbated. There are no easy choices, just a different price for each.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Why can you still get 11/10 LAB Most Seats in the Welsh Assembly elections? Looks like free cash with BoZo driving voters away.

    Not any more. Now shortened to 8/11.
    PB moves a market. Again.

    Still, even 8/11 looks generous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    So 4 days ago Spain took 2,000 off its Covid 19 death figures and yesterday added 12,000 to its tally. And this is a Western democracy. Why anyone believes Country's figures on Covid 19 deaths is beyond me.

    It's not a matter of belief, but of practicalities.

    Every observation, measurement or statistic comes with a degree of error. This error does not, in itself, make the measurement worthless.

    So, we cannot yet be certain whether the death rate is higher in Spain, Italy or the UK, because of the errors. However, we can be certain that the death rate in all three countries is worse than in Germany, despite the errors.

    So we can say useful and consequential things with imperfect data. Why pretend otherwise?
    You make a good point, but it's frustrating for the public generally as we seem to generally disbelieve our country's figures, or be wary of them because of degree of error, but treat most others as utterly correct when as you point out it's more complex.
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