Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Motes and beams. Leading a response to a pandemic without mora

1235789

Comments

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Freggles said:

    I'm wondering how many people speaking about the instruction to stay at home would have done so if their fire alarm was going off and the building was being engulfed in flames.

    Using your own personal judgement is what any sentient intelligent person should do. People banging on as if there's one rule for every situation don't just insult our intelligence they're insulting their own.

    The regulations specifically allow you to leave home in order to prevent injury.
    Very specific aren't they?
    Indeed and having a young infant with no childcare is harmful. QED it is reasonable to leave the home to get childcare.
    In all your comments, you seem to pretend there was only one beach of regulations, not three or more.

    Forget the trips (plural) between London and Durham, and tell me how the Castle Bernard sojourn was in the rules.
    I think it's logical before you go for a long cross country drive if you've just recovered from illness to take a half hour drive to see that you're up to the pressures of driving.

    I believe that's what Cummings meant but not what he said. The way it was phrased was awful but the logic I understood.
    If I wanted to take a drive to test my eyesight* I would probably prefer not to stray too far from home, in case I decided it wasn't up to a long drive. It's a bit risky going 25 miles away, IMHO, because what do you do in this CV-19 world if you get to Castle Bernard and decide your eyesight is not good enough.

    * Which, I would assume, the DVLA does not recommend
    Barnard Castle incidentally is a lot more than half an hour from Durham. However, I don’t know which side of Durham he was starting from. If it was the south near Chester-Le-Street, than half an hour sounds about right. If it was from the northern side, it would be much more like an hour.
    Geography fail there I'm afraid.

    So there is. Why did I think Chester-Le-Street is south of Durham? I stayed there about five years ago and must have muddled it with another stay I made at Shincliffe.

    Honestly, my eyes need testing. Time for a drive to Barnard Castle?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    What does Boris keep looking at, up and down, left and right? It's as though he has been self-medicating with Michael Gove.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    More a tummy tickling than a 'grilling'
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Freggles said:

    I'm wondering how many people speaking about the instruction to stay at home would have done so if their fire alarm was going off and the building was being engulfed in flames.

    Using your own personal judgement is what any sentient intelligent person should do. People banging on as if there's one rule for every situation don't just insult our intelligence they're insulting their own.

    The regulations specifically allow you to leave home in order to prevent injury.
    Very specific aren't they?
    Indeed and having a young infant with no childcare is harmful. QED it is reasonable to leave the home to get childcare.
    In all your comments, you seem to pretend there was only one beach of regulations, not three or more.

    Forget the trips (plural) between London and Durham, and tell me how the Castle Bernard sojourn was in the rules.
    I think it's logical before you go for a long cross country drive if you've just recovered from illness to take a half hour drive to see that you're up to the pressures of driving.

    I believe that's what Cummings meant but not what he said. The way it was phrased was awful but the logic I understood.
    If I wanted to take a drive to test my eyesight* I would probably prefer not to stray too far from home, in case I decided it wasn't up to a long drive. It's a bit risky going 25 miles away, IMHO, because what do you do in this CV-19 world if you get to Castle Bernard and decide your eyesight is not good enough.

    * Which, I would assume, the DVLA does not recommend
    It's strange, isn't it that opticians tend to sit people down in a chair and ask them to read letters, rather than putting them in a car and doing it that way.

    Perhaps Cummings plans to set up his own chain of opticians based around that concept. Perhaps he could call it JobSavers?
    The numberplate eyesight test is still the standard, and is changed only in minor ways for nearly a century.

    The reason is so that anyone can measure out the distance and test themselves.
    And they can do it without getting into a car.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I appreciate that it's more fun talking about Dominic Cummings but I'm disappointed I haven't been able to move debate on, just as the government wishes. What metrics is the government using for lifting lockdown? It hasn't articulated them at all yet and it does seem rather important.

    To answer that:

    We must protect our NHS - Yes.

    We must see sustained falls in the death rate - Yes.

    We must see sustained and considerable falls in the rate of infection - Yes.

    We must sort out our challenges in getting enough PPE to the people who need it, and yes, it is a global problem but we must fix it. - Yes, according to the latest announcements.

    And last, we must make sure that any measures we take do not force the reproduction rate of the disease – the R – back up over one, so that we have the kind of exponential growth we were facing a few weeks ago. - To be seen as things develop, but the talk over the past couple of days about the possibility of reimposing lockdowns locally shows that the government is on the case.

    So I don't really see what the criticism in big-picture terms is here. The government is doing what it said it would do. Other countries are doing similar things, which will no doubt provide useful pre-warning of any issues.

    We can scrutinise the specific decisions and priorities as the regulations are relaxed, but overall the direction and pace seem to be appropriate.
    The government has said none of that. You're hypothesising.

    As of today, what Covid alert level are we at?
    We were on 3.5 and will shortly be on 3 so Im going for 3.14159
    A pious aspiration.
    @ydoethur I challenge you to better this today.
    I don’t think that contest would do anything other than lead us in circles.
    Especially with so many PBers diametrically opposed to each other.
    We’d keep dodging round the issue.

    I said this would lead us in circles...
    We would go off on a tangent.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited May 2020
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    Smug? Moi? As if. :smile:

    But I will confess I find it mildly gratifying that so many people are now noticing what has been apparent to me all along...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I appreciate that it's more fun talking about Dominic Cummings but I'm disappointed I haven't been able to move debate on, just as the government wishes. What metrics is the government using for lifting lockdown? It hasn't articulated them at all yet and it does seem rather important.

    To answer that:

    We must protect our NHS - Yes.

    We must see sustained falls in the death rate - Yes.

    We must see sustained and considerable falls in the rate of infection - Yes.

    We must sort out our challenges in getting enough PPE to the people who need it, and yes, it is a global problem but we must fix it. - Yes, according to the latest announcements.

    And last, we must make sure that any measures we take do not force the reproduction rate of the disease – the R – back up over one, so that we have the kind of exponential growth we were facing a few weeks ago. - To be seen as things develop, but the talk over the past couple of days about the possibility of reimposing lockdowns locally shows that the government is on the case.

    So I don't really see what the criticism in big-picture terms is here. The government is doing what it said it would do. Other countries are doing similar things, which will no doubt provide useful pre-warning of any issues.

    We can scrutinise the specific decisions and priorities as the regulations are relaxed, but overall the direction and pace seem to be appropriate.
    The government has said none of that. You're hypothesising.

    As of today, what Covid alert level are we at?
    We were on 3.5 and will shortly be on 3 so Im going for 3.14159
    A pious aspiration.
    @ydoethur I challenge you to better this today.
    I don’t think that contest would do anything other than lead us in circles.
    Especially with so many PBers diametrically opposed to each other.
    We’d keep dodging round the issue.

    I said this would lead us in circles...
    We would go off on a tangent.
    That’s probably a sin this idea of yours has gone too far.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    What does Boris keep looking at, up and down, left and right? It's as though he has been self-medicating with Michael Gove.

    At the cue cards Dom is holding up for him
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited May 2020

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised when using his surname as being agressively partisan being as everyone knows him as Boris.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    So winning the EU referendum and an 80 seat majority is an example of someone who is not any good?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    In recent years Western governments, and probably all governments, have been allowed to oversell what a government can do for its population.

    When Corona struck therefore people naturally turned to their governments to 'sort out' the problem quickly and efficiently.

    They failed, because sometimes nature is powerful. The government could no more stop some people dying from Corona than they could some people dying from a Tsunami, a meteor strike, a volcanic eruption, an earthquake.

    Indeed, you could argue governments have made things worse. It was humans as much as nature, for example, that got Corona into care homes.

    We now know that Corona is much less harmful outdoors, and yet our instructions were to 'stay home' on top of each other in enclosed units.

    Corona has cruelly exposed the limits of government, any government, to guarantee a life for its citizens and so its not wonder the PM is floundering. Any PM would.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    chloe said:

    Boris and Cummings should both go

    I think Sunak should be the man to lead. Hunt in as CoE.
  • Brom said:

    More a tummy tickling than a 'grilling'

    A tummy like his needs to be tickled before grilling to keep it tender and tasty.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    kinabalu said:

    I appreciate that it's more fun talking about Dominic Cummings but I'm disappointed I haven't been able to move debate on, just as the government wishes. What metrics is the government using for lifting lockdown? It hasn't articulated them at all yet and it does seem rather important.

    Of the five original tests, the first 3 are done. The fourth is in progress and seems on track. The fifth could never be guaranteed so has been loosened/changed/dropped.

    We are learning more from other countries unlockdowns than we can learn from looking at our own R during lockdown.
    The government needs to say that if it's true.

    The problem group are not those itching to go to the pub, the beach or to Nando's. It's the pensioners who have all the money and who don't feel safe out of the house.
    I haven't seen any official mention of when the specially shielded individuals can come out of hiding. I think TSE said the latest advice is end of June, but the government really haven't talked about this.
    It's not just specially shielded individuals. There's a cohort of over 70s who took the initial statements that they needed to take extra care very seriously indeed.
    I and many of my friends did. And organisations such as the U3a confirmed us in our view.
    My mother today has for the first time since lockdown gone into a shop. She has been steeling herself for this moment for at least two weeks. She had the moral support at a social distance of my sister. I know she feels extremely proud of herself now.

    She lives on a close of bungalows with a lot of other oldies (she'd be affronted if she saw I used that word about her - I got into trouble last night for pointing out that Joe Biden was the same age as her). They're quite sociable between themselves but each only has a handful of links outside the close. They're all really spooked still.

    I don't think some younger people have really grasped just how much fear there still is out there.
    I was at Morrisons today and can report that there is still a level of anxiety in there. One woman lost her temper with somebody who came too close. Some quite bad language.
    Quite right too.

    Shopping indoors is by far the most risky permitted activity out there. If I go to a supermarket indoors there will probably be someone coming within 2 metres every minute or less. They're the ones who are most likely to be infected because they don't give a damn. It's potentially worse in some retailers who quite clearly are content to go through the motions to cover themselves while still letting far too many into their stores. Based on experience to date I go to a near deserted supermarket about 8.45pm. And use your trolley to block the idiots from getting close.

    By contrast If I play golf for three hours in the outdoors there will generally be only one person within 100 yards of me the whole time. It's ridiculous that we still have to tee off at intervals of 10 minutes no less.
    It's a problem that no matter how careful you are, there's always the other guy.

    For example, I did see someone dutifully standing in a queue 6 feet behind the person in front, but with two people literally about 6 inches behind him.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I appreciate that it's more fun talking about Dominic Cummings but I'm disappointed I haven't been able to move debate on, just as the government wishes. What metrics is the government using for lifting lockdown? It hasn't articulated them at all yet and it does seem rather important.

    To answer that:

    We must protect our NHS - Yes.

    We must see sustained falls in the death rate - Yes.

    We must see sustained and considerable falls in the rate of infection - Yes.

    We must sort out our challenges in getting enough PPE to the people who need it, and yes, it is a global problem but we must fix it. - Yes, according to the latest announcements.

    And last, we must make sure that any measures we take do not force the reproduction rate of the disease – the R – back up over one, so that we have the kind of exponential growth we were facing a few weeks ago. - To be seen as things develop, but the talk over the past couple of days about the possibility of reimposing lockdowns locally shows that the government is on the case.

    So I don't really see what the criticism in big-picture terms is here. The government is doing what it said it would do. Other countries are doing similar things, which will no doubt provide useful pre-warning of any issues.

    We can scrutinise the specific decisions and priorities as the regulations are relaxed, but overall the direction and pace seem to be appropriate.
    The government has said none of that. You're hypothesising.

    As of today, what Covid alert level are we at?
    We were on 3.5 and will shortly be on 3 so Im going for 3.14159
    A pious aspiration.
    @ydoethur I challenge you to better this today.
    A circumfrential answer in my opinion. And an irrational one...
    e's got no chance.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2020

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    So winning the EU referendum and an 80 seat majority is an example of someone who is not any good?
    It's pointless arguing. Many on here seem to think a GE is just around the corner, that the government has a wafer thin majority, and that in four years, any of this will make any difference.

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    This moment does remind me of when some Labour supporters who had so long wished Brown to take over from Blair started the slow realisation that their man was a crock of shit. I had the advantage of a little inside knowledge on Boris Johnson. He is even more unsuited to the job of PM than Gordy. People thought that TMay was poor. She is a colossus compared to her hopeless successor.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Boris is just not well and his bumbling along is not impressive

    He is polite to his interrogators but I cannot see him leading into GE 2024, indeed I do not see him in place this time next year

    This seems to be a growing consensus. That he will not make the next election. I think he will myself. It is rare for power to be given up voluntarily and I can't see the party booting him out unless he starts to poll as a clear electoral liability. And that will not happen unless the public demonstrates a greater level of interest and perceptiveness about politics than I for one give them credit for.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    I usually call him Johnson, but no doubt I have slipped at times.

    You are correct I think.

    What is even more is that Boris is effectively a stage name. His family and numerous girlfriends all call him Alexander or Alex.

  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Brom said:

    eek said:

    The Cummings saga is not a brexit issue
    Well, for some the hatred towards him / Cummings is 100% Brexit, but yes, Tory Bear pointing out all the Remainers on the panel ahead of time, is as I say just "getting excuses in early".
    The Cummings saga is not a Brexit issue but Brexit is an available excuse for why people are being mean to Dominic and that excuse seems to be being used (in part) to justify his retention.
    It is not a Brexit issue, it is a right or wrong issue.

    Two extreme ERG members, Stephen Baker and Laurence Robertson, have both expressed their dissatisfaction over Cummings. There are probably other of a Brexit persuasion who also ain't happy.
    Definitely a Brexit issue. Look at Alastair Campbell disobeying the rules today but getting angry at Cummings.
    So why are Baker, Robertson and many other strongly pro-Brexit people lining up on the wrong side? I think it is because they think Cummings was wrong. So do I. So do most people, if the polls are anything to go by.

    That suggests it's being seen as a right v wrong issue, and I'm sure that's healthy. Viewing it through the prism of Brexit is unhealthy because it trivialises it.
    The few remaining Cummings fans are desperately flailing around trying to find a straw to clutch. After failing dismally to smear Tony Lloyd this morning they are now trying to turn into a Brexit issue. Sadly anyone with a functioning brain cell can see that the attacks are also coming from leave politicians.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    Calling Johnson 'Boris' is buying into the character he has created, and it is bullshit. Perhaps I have inadverterntly been bought.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    This moment does remind me of when some Labour supporters who had so long wished Brown to take over from Blair started the slow realisation that their man was a crock of shit. I had the advantage of a little inside knowledge on Boris Johnson. He is even more unsuited to the job of PM than Gordy. People thought that TMay was poor. She is a colossus compared to her hopeless successor.

    ....who won a huge majority. Brown didn't. Nor did May. Or Cameron for that matter.

    I applaud your theoretical musings but unfortunately reality is somewhat different.
  • chloechloe Posts: 308
    Pulpstar said:

    chloe said:

    Boris and Cummings should both go

    I think Sunak should be the man to lead. Hunt in as CoE.
    That would be a vast improvement.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    Quite so. It's actually more partisan to call him a cuddly name like Boris. Much more sensible to be correct and call him Mr Johnson.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised when using his surname as being agressively partisan being as everyone knows him as Boris.
    I think you are too kind. Johnson is the correct term, or if you prefer to be less aggressively partisan "Mr Johnson". The formal address is so little used now it seems so much more condescending to the ejit
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    I usually call him Johnson, but no doubt I have slipped at times.

    You are correct I think.

    What is even more is that Boris is effectively a stage name. His family and numerous girlfriends all call him Alexander or Alex.

    I will only call him Johnson although in the past Alexandra on occasions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited May 2020

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    So winning the EU referendum and an 80 seat majority is an example of someone who is not any good?
    Somebody who has failed as a businessman, failed as a think tank director, failed as a special adviser and failed as an academic, but through the use of over-simplistic slogans and sometimes dishonest slogans to summarise matters he didn’t fully comprehend has become a successful campaigner, is no good?

    Hmmm.

    *Thinks hard*

    I’m sticking to ‘yes,’ actually. But then, it depends on what you are talking about. His work on the NE Assembly referendum was pretty basic. Contrary to his later claims, he only spent about two days on it. But in those two days, he came up with the slogan that shaped the campaign around ‘no more politicians.’ And that was definitely very important in the outcome. Cf Brexit and the GE.

    However, campaigners with simplistic solutions are pretty shite at actually governing. He amply proved that at education. He blames ‘vested interests’ for his failure, but really it was a heady mixture of incompetence, ignorance, arrogance and laziness. We’ve seen all those on display again this week.

    If he had been an advertising copy writer, he would have been magnificent, albeit probably also frequently in deep shit with the ASA. But as an executive, he’s hopeless.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Anyone at Newsnight been sacked ?

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    Pulpstar said:

    Not sure why Trump his mad at Twitter, it's been an amazing platform for him.

    I wonder what the consequences would be for Twitter if it simply turned him off. Would it be breaking any law?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    chloe said:

    Pulpstar said:

    chloe said:

    Boris and Cummings should both go

    I think Sunak should be the man to lead. Hunt in as CoE.
    That would be a vast improvement.
    Labour would eat them for breakfast. Ditto, the EU. And then the electorate.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited May 2020
    Hmmmm.

    Saturday. Man on bike goes to A&E for stitches to mouth because of wire and wood trap stretched across cycle / walking trail at head height.

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cyclist-ripped-bike-wire-trap-18307147

    Sunday. Sunday Times columnist inserts aside in column on different subject that “it’s tempting” to “tie piano wire at neck height across the road” with a view to catch families of cyclists legally riding in his neighbourhood.

    Wednesday. After complaints, Sunday Times asserts that their columnist was only joking.
    https://twitter.com/ShipBrief/status/1265541683715940352

    Some way still to go to create a civilised country in lalaland.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Johnson is desperately unimpressive. He genuinely has no idea about the policy of the government he is supposed to lead.


    Seriously, how on earth are we going to get though this crisis and end the Brexit transition with Johnson at the helm?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    I always call him Johnson. As a friend put it on Facebook once, he couldn't call him "Boris" because he wasn't his mate, and he was a dick.
    Also as others have noted, the whole "Boris" thing is part of his PR operation, and isn't even his actual name.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Off topic.
    The video of that Police man in the USA with his knee on the black man's neck for minutes.Whilst he tells him he can not breathe , then later dies is horrific.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    So winning the EU referendum and an 80 seat majority is an example of someone who is not any good?
    People remember Pyrrhus for his great victories too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    I always call him Johnson. As a friend put it on Facebook once, he couldn't call him "Boris" because he wasn't his mate, and he was a dick.
    Also as others have noted, the whole "Boris" thing is part of his PR operation, and isn't even his actual name.
    If you wish to go with his general penile characteristics, you could always call him A Johnson.

    I think that covers many bases.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".



  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Meg Hillier's showboating didn't get her far.

  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    Mango said:



    I dislike Claire Fox. I don't support her, never have.

    Except, you know, when you voted for her.

    I'm not sure you understand this democracy business at all...
    I didn't vote for her. I voted a protest vote and I voted for there to be no MEPs.

    My protest was acknowledged and there are no MEPs. Job done.
    But you did vote for her. You marked a ballot paper in support of her party, in the constituency where she was top of the list. She was duly elected as your representative. Job done.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Two months old, but I liked this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HS4O0mxl3A
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited May 2020

    deleted
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    There has been an arrest in the Barnard Castle case.

    The Guardian writer...

  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".



    I'm going to say I'm glad I just write and sell software that people either want or don't.

    As you say the economy is going to be completely screwed.

    I take it your figures don't change significantly depending on Brexit outcomes?
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    TGOHF666 said:

    Anyone at Newsnight been sacked ?

    Paul Mason to return soon?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited May 2020

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    So winning the EU referendum and an 80 seat majority is an example of someone who is not any good?
    People remember Pyrrhus for his great victories too.

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    So winning the EU referendum and an 80 seat majority is an example of someone who is not any good?
    eople remember Pyrrhus for his great victories too.
    Bit like Nicola Sturgeon. Won the victory but utterly powerless.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    At the moment comparing the Scottish and UK Government strategies is fascinating me.

    The Scottish Government message is extremely clear and simple and well-delivered, but arguably their aim is far too narrow. They are putting suppression of the virus to effectively zero as the sole aim of everything they do to the complete neglect of pretty much every other potential consideration. It is an understandable but entirely unnuanced position. I'm sure they would deny that, but it seems clear to me, as someone who has read all the SG papers and listened to the SG daily briefings - that they are relying on the fact that they don't really need to worry about paying for everything to allow them to focus solely on the covid health issue. This allows them effectively to now have drifted to a full "step" behind the UK government position in terms of easing the lockdown, despite what would appear to be the natural advantages of having locked down at the same timepoint but effectively earlier in the infection curve than England, plus a naturally much more separated population on average across the country anyway.

    The UK Government appear to have more of a nuanced understanding that life does need to go on despite the virus and an acuter knowledge of the fact that the economy cannot simply be ignored indefinitely till this is all over, but their message and communications are so hilariously incompetently vague and blustered and confused and off-the-cuff (and now distracted at best and utterly compromised at worst by Cummings) - a veritable smorgasbord of suggestions and ideas and guidance and advice all pinging and ricocheting off every surface - that no one really appears to know what it is that they're actually intending to DO. Boris cannot explain anything concisely or coherently at the best of times and at the moment he is just a blubbering wreck. Everyone else who regularly stands in for him seems to have their own take on what is happening. An absolute bona fide mess.

    To me the UK government have the right position but no apparent competence to achieve it; the Scottish government have the competence (not perfect I accept but considerably better) but to achieve the wrong (in my eyes) strategy.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    More a tummy tickling than a 'grilling'

    A tummy like his needs to be tickled before grilling to keep it tender and tasty.
    the grilling never came.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".

    Many of us here are anticipating the economics are going to be horrendous. Better to go into some serious economic shit with the public onside I think though ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    I appreciate that it's more fun talking about Dominic Cummings but I'm disappointed I haven't been able to move debate on, just as the government wishes. What metrics is the government using for lifting lockdown? It hasn't articulated them at all yet and it does seem rather important.

    Of the five original tests, the first 3 are done. The fourth is in progress and seems on track. The fifth could never be guaranteed so has been loosened/changed/dropped.

    We are learning more from other countries unlockdowns than we can learn from looking at our own R during lockdown.
    The government needs to say that if it's true.

    The problem group are not those itching to go to the pub, the beach or to Nando's. It's the pensioners who have all the money and who don't feel safe out of the house.
    I haven't seen any official mention of when the specially shielded individuals can come out of hiding. I think TSE said the latest advice is end of June, but the government really haven't talked about this.
    It's not just specially shielded individuals. There's a cohort of over 70s who took the initial statements that they needed to take extra care very seriously indeed.
    I and many of my friends did. And organisations such as the U3a confirmed us in our view.
    My mother today has for the first time since lockdown gone into a shop. She has been steeling herself for this moment for at least two weeks. She had the moral support at a social distance of my sister. I know she feels extremely proud of herself now.

    She lives on a close of bungalows with a lot of other oldies (she'd be affronted if she saw I used that word about her - I got into trouble last night for pointing out that Joe Biden was the same age as her). They're quite sociable between themselves but each only has a handful of links outside the close. They're all really spooked still.

    I don't think some younger people have really grasped just how much fear there still is out there.
    I was at Morrisons today and can report that there is still a level of anxiety in there. One woman lost her temper with somebody who came too close. Some quite bad language.
    I fear there may be fisticuffs as we enter a phase of uncertainty around social distancing and other measures. We saw this before lockdown.
    Yes. Social distancing is like the tango, isn't it. If some are doing it and some are not, you get, er, people doing the tango but by no means everybody. The curse of the 'not quite right' analogy. :smile:

    But, yes, totally agree with your point. There will be blood.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    kyf_100 said:

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA ...

    Please please please tell us. We should be so grateful. Personally I would stand in absolute awe of you.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    DavidL said:


    Cummings is not even a deckchair on the Titanic which we are arguing about throwing overboard as the iceberg rips an ever bigger hole in the ship of state and the pathetic, irrational, disproportionate and frankly mad obsession with Cummings shows so much of what is wrong with this country today. People should grow up. There is plenty to be angry about, plenty to be genuinely worried about.1 job in Whitehall is not even close to making the list.


    Re-read the Quote at the top of this page, "You must stay at home".
    Boris' top advisor broke this order. That is why people are angry.
    It does not matter if Cummings is not even a piece of rat shit on the Titanic, people feel betrayed by the government.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pulpstar said:

    Not sure why Trump his mad at Twitter, it's been an amazing platform for him.

    On two of his tweets Twitter posted links to this: https://twitter.com/i/events/1265330601034256384
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Essexit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Essexit said:

    Foxy said:

    Essexit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm wondering how many people speaking about the instruction to stay at home would have done so if their fire alarm was going off and the building was being engulfed in flames.

    Using your own personal judgement is what any sentient intelligent person should do. People banging on as if there's one rule for every situation don't just insult our intelligence they're insulting their own.

    False equivalency klaxon. False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency. A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

    They were infected with a deadly virus - something your false equivalency doesn't take into account. Leaving the house meant that others could catch it. Unlike in a fire, there were alternatives to leaving the house up to and including calling social services. While I accept that calling social services not ideal, particularly not to the policital elite, it is temporary and not deadly, WHICH IS WHAT INFECTING COUNTY DURHAM WITH COVID-19 IS FFS. How hard can this be to understand? They may have killed someone to avoid sending their child to a place of safety outside their family - something plenty of very good parents do and have done since time began.
    Given that they didn't actually come into contact with anyone either on the way there or back (including Cummings' parents), they could not have infected County Durham with COVID-19. Even if what they did was a technical breach of the rules, surely the key question is did they risk speeding up transmission of the virus? And it doesn't look like they did.
    You mean, apart from the trip into the hospital.
    The lad was assessed over the phone and 999 decided to send an ambulance out. He could have been sent on his own but that seems a cruel thing to do to a four year-old. I would however be interested to know if the paramedics were made aware of Mary Wakefield's illness (assuming she was still symptomatic at that point).
    And here's the Ennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnttttttttttttttttttttttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeee
    point of not travelling about the country when you suspect you might have Covid-19.
    So would it be alright with you if the boy had been taken ill in London and Mary Wakefield had gone to hospital with him there?
    Yes, obviously declaring the suspect Covid nature of the illness to protect the paramedics and admissions staff.
    If she declared that to the paramedics in Durham (and we don't know whether or not she did), surely the decision to take her was on them, and presumably the precautions were taken.
    Paramedics are going to act the same way in London and Durham. Do you not understand the huge difference though. If noone with the virus within London travels to Durham, there is no possible way the virus reaches Durham.
    NHS staff by and large don't have a choice about whether or not they come into contact with the virus, hence all the PPE. With the best will in the world a paramedic in London or Durham could get infected through the Cummings' family action but the virus was already rampant through London at that point so adding 1 infection to the pool simply doesn't matter as much as introducing to a low infected place. THIS really, really, really was precisely why travel around the country to second homes etc was explicitly banned in the guidance (I am not sure of the law)
    I can't believe I'm having to explain this, @Foxy is a medic and might be able to help you out more on this if you need the fact that travelling around with the virus is a horrendously poor idea.
    To be pedantic, it wasn't a second home per se, it was his parents' home. More to the point, he wasn't swanning off there for a jolly and a knees-up with his folks.
    No he was swanning off breaking quarantine.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Freggles said:

    I'm wondering how many people speaking about the instruction to stay at home would have done so if their fire alarm was going off and the building was being engulfed in flames.

    Using your own personal judgement is what any sentient intelligent person should do. People banging on as if there's one rule for every situation don't just insult our intelligence they're insulting their own.

    The regulations specifically allow you to leave home in order to prevent injury.
    Very specific aren't they?
    Indeed and having a young infant with no childcare is harmful. QED it is reasonable to leave the home to get childcare.
    In all your comments, you seem to pretend there was only one beach of regulations, not three or more.

    Forget the trips (plural) between London and Durham, and tell me how the Castle Bernard sojourn was in the rules.
    I think it's logical before you go for a long cross country drive if you've just recovered from illness to take a half hour drive to see that you're up to the pressures of driving.

    I believe that's what Cummings meant but not what he said. The way it was phrased was awful but the logic I understood.
    If I wanted to take a drive to test my eyesight* I would probably prefer not to stray too far from home, in case I decided it wasn't up to a long drive. It's a bit risky going 25 miles away, IMHO, because what do you do in this CV-19 world if you get to Castle Bernard and decide your eyesight is not good enough.

    * Which, I would assume, the DVLA does not recommend
    It's strange, isn't it that opticians tend to sit people down in a chair and ask them to read letters, rather than putting them in a car and doing it that way.

    Perhaps Cummings plans to set up his own chain of opticians based around that concept. Perhaps he could call it JobSavers?
    The numberplate eyesight test is still the standard, and is changed only in minor ways for nearly a century.

    The reason is so that anyone can measure out the distance and test themselves.
    Without driving
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".



    It is a statement of the obvious that getting the economy going after lock down will not be easy, why on earth you need to see a NDA to realise that is beyond me?
  • Scott_xP said:
    So no change then, because that's the percentage that thought he should quit.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".



    Great post. Some of us have been expecting this economic catastrophe.

    In the end, the reason why we are leaving lockdown is that we have to. The reason we will junk social distancing is that we have to. The reason wqe will go back to the old normal is that we have to. The alternative is social and economic disintegration.

    Those are the choices. They always were.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    ydoethur said:

    This is a lose-lose for Bozo now. If he fires him he will look weak. if he keeps him he looks weak. POBWAS

    Cummings is clever but arrogant, he needs to stay, Boris comes over as a fool, he needs to take a rest until the end of the pandemic.
    "Boris" as you affectionately refer to him does not just come over as a fool, he is a fool. Not necessarily educationally (though an Eton education always helps), but from every aspect of leadership that one would expect from a PM he is an idiot. Cummings is clever, in that he is riding a donkey for as long as said donkey thinks it needs him and not the other way around.
    I previously regularly referred to him as Johnson, I have been criticised for using his surname for being agressively partisan as everyone knows him as Boris.
    It’s funny, but I think I’m the only poster who refers to him consistently as ‘Johnson.’ Never called him ‘Boris’ since he became FS.

    Just doesn’t feel right to me to call the PM by their first name.
    I always call him Johnson. As a friend put it on Facebook once, he couldn't call him "Boris" because he wasn't his mate, and he was a dick.
    Also as others have noted, the whole "Boris" thing is part of his PR operation, and isn't even his actual name.
    Tories and Leavers call him Boris, left-wingers and Remainers call him Johnson.

    Same as Labour supporters called Corbyn Jeremy and Tories called him by his surname
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    As a matter of interest, I have collated a table of the numbers of Covid-19 inpatients in Leics. This is from published figures, using all the dates when our comms team sent out an update:

    6 May: 139
    10 May: 145
    11 May: 138
    12 May: 131
    13 May: 125
    14 May: 140
    17 May: 155
    19 May: 156
    21 May: 141
    26 May: 141

    There seems to be a weekend effect, with a slight uptick both BH Weekend (8-10 May) and the following one (16-17 May).

    There seems to be a peak 10 days after the VE day BH, and we end the three weeks no better than we started. Not much of a downward trend here.

    Deaths up from 256 to 332 over the period, discharged up from 558 to 738
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    At the moment comparing the Scottish and UK Government strategies is fascinating me.

    The Scottish Government message is extremely clear and simple and well-delivered, but arguably their aim is far too narrow. They are putting suppression of the virus to effectively zero as the sole aim of everything they do to the complete neglect of pretty much every other potential consideration. It is an understandable but entirely unnuanced position. I'm sure they would deny that, but it seems clear to me, as someone who has read all the SG papers and listened to the SG daily briefings - that they are relying on the fact that they don't really need to worry about paying for everything to allow them to focus solely on the covid health issue. This allows them effectively to now have drifted to a full "step" behind the UK government position in terms of easing the lockdown, despite what would appear to be the natural advantages of having locked down at the same timepoint but effectively earlier in the infection curve than England, plus a naturally much more separated population on average across the country anyway.

    The UK Government appear to have more of a nuanced understanding that life does need to go on despite the virus and an acuter knowledge of the fact that the economy cannot simply be ignored indefinitely till this is all over, but their message and communications are so hilariously incompetently vague and blustered and confused and off-the-cuff (and now distracted at best and utterly compromised at worst by Cummings) - a veritable smorgasbord of suggestions and ideas and guidance and advice all pinging and ricocheting off every surface - that no one really appears to know what it is that they're actually intending to DO. Boris cannot explain anything concisely or coherently at the best of times and at the moment he is just a blubbering wreck. Everyone else who regularly stands in for him seems to have their own take on what is happening. An absolute bona fide mess.

    To me the UK government have the right position but no apparent competence to achieve it; the Scottish government have the competence (not perfect I accept but considerably better) but to achieve the wrong (in my eyes) strategy.

    The SNP strategy is all about being able to say "nur nur ni nur nur - we did better than England at controlling Covid." Then expecting the resulting fucked economy to be bailed out by, er, England. It takes some brass neck to try it. But if it should fail....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".



    Actually we do know. And are very fearful.

    Yesterday I was approached about a full-time job. Unprompted by me. I would normally say no.

    I am not. I am going to think very hard about it because I may very well need it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Scott_xP said:
    So no change then, because that's the percentage that thought he should quit.
    There must be some:

    Its important and he must stay
    Its not important but he should go
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    At the moment comparing the Scottish and UK Government strategies is fascinating me.

    The Scottish Government message is extremely clear and simple and well-delivered, but arguably their aim is far too narrow. They are putting suppression of the virus to effectively zero as the sole aim of everything they do to the complete neglect of pretty much every other potential consideration. It is an understandable but entirely unnuanced position. I'm sure they would deny that, but it seems clear to me, as someone who has read all the SG papers and listened to the SG daily briefings - that they are relying on the fact that they don't really need to worry about paying for everything to allow them to focus solely on the covid health issue. This allows them effectively to now have drifted to a full "step" behind the UK government position in terms of easing the lockdown, despite what would appear to be the natural advantages of having locked down at the same timepoint but effectively earlier in the infection curve than England, plus a naturally much more separated population on average across the country anyway.

    The UK Government appear to have more of a nuanced understanding that life does need to go on despite the virus and an acuter knowledge of the fact that the economy cannot simply be ignored indefinitely till this is all over, but their message and communications are so hilariously incompetently vague and blustered and confused and off-the-cuff (and now distracted at best and utterly compromised at worst by Cummings) - a veritable smorgasbord of suggestions and ideas and guidance and advice all pinging and ricocheting off every surface - that no one really appears to know what it is that they're actually intending to DO. Boris cannot explain anything concisely or coherently at the best of times and at the moment he is just a blubbering wreck. Everyone else who regularly stands in for him seems to have their own take on what is happening. An absolute bona fide mess.

    To me the UK government have the right position but no apparent competence to achieve it; the Scottish government have the competence (not perfect I accept but considerably better) but to achieve the wrong (in my eyes) strategy.

    The SNP strategy is all about being able to say "nur nur ni nur nur - we did better than England at controlling Covid." Then expecting the resulting fucked economy to be bailed out by, er, England. It takes some brass neck to try it. But if it should fail....
    The SNP strategy is entirely to cover up the lack of skills and experience they have to deal with a crisis of this magnitude - by blaming Westminster for bad stuff.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    This moment does remind me of when some Labour supporters who had so long wished Brown to take over from Blair started the slow realisation that their man was a crock of shit. I had the advantage of a little inside knowledge on Boris Johnson. He is even more unsuited to the job of PM than Gordy. People thought that TMay was poor. She is a colossus compared to her hopeless successor.

    Rubbish, Boris won a bigger majority than any Tory leader since Thatcher and the biggest of any leader since Blair in 2001.

    Neither Brown nor May won a majority.

    As long as the Tories still lead most polls Boris is going nowhere
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Stocky said:

    Bojo`s lost his mojo.

    Not really. To a large degree, he was always this bad. It's just that it's not being edited, there's no laugh track and his audience is sober.
    He's badly exposed in these focused, professional environments. He needs noise and a bit of chaos. Bet he can't wait for normal slapstick PMQs to resume.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:
    Good idea. Distance yourself from this decaying regime and be ready clear up the mess. I'm green on Penny.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Freggles said:

    I'm wondering how many people speaking about the instruction to stay at home would have done so if their fire alarm was going off and the building was being engulfed in flames.

    Using your own personal judgement is what any sentient intelligent person should do. People banging on as if there's one rule for every situation don't just insult our intelligence they're insulting their own.

    The regulations specifically allow you to leave home in order to prevent injury.
    Very specific aren't they?
    Indeed and having a young infant with no childcare is harmful. QED it is reasonable to leave the home to get childcare.
    In all your comments, you seem to pretend there was only one beach of regulations, not three or more.

    Forget the trips (plural) between London and Durham, and tell me how the Castle Bernard sojourn was in the rules.
    I think it's logical before you go for a long cross country drive if you've just recovered from illness to take a half hour drive to see that you're up to the pressures of driving.

    I believe that's what Cummings meant but not what he said. The way it was phrased was awful but the logic I understood.
    If I wanted to take a drive to test my eyesight* I would probably prefer not to stray too far from home, in case I decided it wasn't up to a long drive. It's a bit risky going 25 miles away, IMHO, because what do you do in this CV-19 world if you get to Castle Bernard and decide your eyesight is not good enough.

    * Which, I would assume, the DVLA does not recommend
    It's strange, isn't it that opticians tend to sit people down in a chair and ask them to read letters, rather than putting them in a car and doing it that way.

    Perhaps Cummings plans to set up his own chain of opticians based around that concept. Perhaps he could call it JobSavers?
    The numberplate eyesight test is still the standard, and is changed only in minor ways for nearly a century.

    The reason is so that anyone can measure out the distance and test themselves.
    Without driving
    you probably don't drive yourself ..its like saying you have passed the test so you can drive.

    That certainly isn't true, it might be legally true.... just look at the stats of accidents involving young drivers and why their premiums are resultantly so huge.

    Its not just seeing things at the required distance, its seeing what's going on to the left and the right and the ability to judge things correctly.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".

    Do you also have the figures for how screwed the economy would have been had there been the Corona pandemic but no lockdown?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Prediction - neither the Liaison Committee nor PMQs will exist in their current form by the end of this Parliament. Both will be changed to ensure that Johnson faces less scrutiny.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Declare war on china to win in November?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Foxy said:

    As a matter of interest, I have collated a table of the numbers of Covid-19 inpatients in Leics. This is from published figures, using all the dates when our comms team sent out an update:

    6 May: 139
    10 May: 145
    11 May: 138
    12 May: 131
    13 May: 125
    14 May: 140
    17 May: 155
    19 May: 156
    21 May: 141
    26 May: 141

    There seems to be a weekend effect, with a slight uptick both BH Weekend (8-10 May) and the following one (16-17 May).

    There seems to be a peak 10 days after the VE day BH, and we end the three weeks no better than we started. Not much of a downward trend here.

    Deaths up from 256 to 332 over the period, discharged up from 558 to 738

    Are these how many in patients there are, or how many were admitted on that day?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited May 2020
    Michael Portillo was very interesting on the PM programme about 30 minutes ago. He described Johnson as being like a "spectator".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Prediction - neither the Liaison Committee nor PMQs will exist in their current form by the end of this Parliament. Both will be changed to ensure that Johnson faces less scrutiny.

    The Liaison committee will stay. BoZo just won't attend.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".

    Do you also have the figures for how screwed the economy would have been had there been the Corona pandemic but no lockdown?
    What I'm wondering is how much more screwed the British economy will be if we have a second lockdown.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Under the Basic Law, it had devolved executive, legislative, and judicial powers. In most political systems, that would be considered a high degree of autonomy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Johnson is desperately unimpressive. He genuinely has no idea about the policy of the government he is supposed to lead.

    It gives me no pleasure to say "told you so" to all those Tory Members that voted for him. The odd thing is, he is even worse than I thought he'd be. He just cannot step up to the plate. I wonder if even HYUFD is having doubts?
    Far from it, you were telling me before the election Boris would not win northern and Midlands Leave seats, he did, by a landslide
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:

    Prediction - neither the Liaison Committee nor PMQs will exist in their current form by the end of this Parliament. Both will be changed to ensure that Johnson faces less scrutiny.

    The Liaison committee will stay. BoZo just won't attend.
    I declined to commit to attending again within the first two minutes.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Chris said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".

    Do you also have the figures for how screwed the economy would have been had there been the Corona pandemic but no lockdown?
    What I'm wondering is how much more screwed the British economy will be if we have a second lockdown.
    Same as every other economy I suppose.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    HYUFD said:

    This moment does remind me of when some Labour supporters who had so long wished Brown to take over from Blair started the slow realisation that their man was a crock of shit. I had the advantage of a little inside knowledge on Boris Johnson. He is even more unsuited to the job of PM than Gordy. People thought that TMay was poor. She is a colossus compared to her hopeless successor.

    Rubbish, Boris won a bigger majority than any Tory leader since Thatcher and the biggest of any leader since Blair in 2001.

    Neither Brown nor May won a majority.

    As long as the Tories still lead most polls Boris is going nowhere
    Winning an election is not proof of being suited to the job of prime-minister.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    TGOHF666 said:

    Anyone at Newsnight been sacked ?

    I look forward to them doing a partisan hatchet job on themselves on the next Newsnight! :lol:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Andy_JS said:

    Michael Portillo was very interesting on the PM programme about 30 minutes ago. He described Johnson as being like a "spectator".

    LOL. Well he is isn't he? Cummings run the show and that's why he has been kept at enormous cost.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Scott_xP said:
    The same Amber Rudd who was "aristocracy co-ordinator" on Four Weddings? That one?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2020
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    This moment does remind me of when some Labour supporters who had so long wished Brown to take over from Blair started the slow realisation that their man was a crock of shit. I had the advantage of a little inside knowledge on Boris Johnson. He is even more unsuited to the job of PM than Gordy. People thought that TMay was poor. She is a colossus compared to her hopeless successor.

    Rubbish, Boris won a bigger majority than any Tory leader since Thatcher and the biggest of any leader since Blair in 2001.

    Neither Brown nor May won a majority.

    As long as the Tories still lead most polls Boris is going nowhere
    Winning an election is not proof of being suited to the job of prime-minister.
    It probably goes a very long way though. Considering it's the only way of getting the job (mostly).
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Do the wider population appreciate what is to come economically?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    This moment does remind me of when some Labour supporters who had so long wished Brown to take over from Blair started the slow realisation that their man was a crock of shit. I had the advantage of a little inside knowledge on Boris Johnson. He is even more unsuited to the job of PM than Gordy. People thought that TMay was poor. She is a colossus compared to her hopeless successor.

    Rubbish, Boris won a bigger majority than any Tory leader since Thatcher and the biggest of any leader since Blair in 2001.

    Neither Brown nor May won a majority.

    As long as the Tories still lead most polls Boris is going nowhere
    Winning an election is not proof of being suited to the job of prime-minister.
    It is the most important job of the party leader and the party pick the leader who becomes the PM if they win that election
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh Scott, twitter isn't going to get you what you want I'm afraid.
    I for one want him to stay right where he is.

    He has single-handedly brought Labour right back into the game in the space of 5 short days. What a hero.
    You do know the next GE is fours years from now?
    Yes.

    Four years of Dominic Cummings doing this level of damage and it won’t be a new Thatcher the Tories need but a new Clement Davies.
    You must be feeling well smug as the poster who more than anyone has been telling anybody who would listen - which was precious few - that the sum of Dominic Cummings was considerably less than his parts.
    Smug? Moi? As if. :smile:

    But I will confess I find it mildly gratifying that so many people are now noticing what has been apparent to me all along...
    Always good to be ahead of the curve.

    Hey, point of order though -

    EYE always call the PM "Johnson" too. Only called him Boris when he was sick and I was feeling a bit motherly.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".

    Do you also have the figures for how screwed the economy would have been had there been the Corona pandemic but no lockdown?
    What I'm wondering is how much more screwed the British economy will be if we have a second lockdown.
    Same as every other economy I suppose.
    Not if the other countries don't have a second lockdown.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    Andy_JS said:

    Michael Portillo was very interesting on the PM programme about 30 minutes ago. He described Johnson as being like a "spectator".

    Yes, very interesting.

    Also of interest was his opinion that the pursuit of Cummings was a bit of a waste of time now since the PM has decided that he will not be sacked come what may.

    Starmer is a very lucky General!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Andy_JS said:

    Michael Portillo was very interesting on the PM programme about 30 minutes ago. He described Johnson as being like a "spectator".

    That’s a shame. But if ever the Times called for a New Statesman...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    kyf_100 said:

    Could I just say I find it absolutely barking mad that you are all still debating Cummings as if it will matter in four years time when the economic depression bites later this year.

    I really wish I could share some of the data I have seen under NDA, because it would terrify all of you. Suffice to say nobody is going to give a s*it about Cummings in six months time. Certainly not in 2024.

    If you have a job at the end of all this, or are lucky enough to not need a job for a year or two, you will be thanking your lucky stars.

    We are in serious, serious trouble and the government has literally no idea what to do about it. That is the real story. Everything else is what I believe IT consultants call "bike shedding".

    The Cummings affair is integral to how the government tackles what is coming next politically. It needs as much goodwill as it can get as the lockdown ends, the furlough unwinds and things become real. I agree that very few will be talking about Cummings in four years' time - except in the sense that this episode made it much harder for the government to tackle the crisis. The fact that Johnson will not give him up shows just how important to the finctioning of the government he believes Cummings to be. That matters a lot.

This discussion has been closed.