In practice if it comes to it, would it be easier for Boris to sack Dom or vice versa? Dom controls the political staff and indirectly the Civil Service, so it probably depends on who would keep the donors happier.
Well, that’s that on lockdown. For starters, I can go down and see my sister and her family later this week. I’ll just sit in the garden and we can chat. That won’t break any rules, in my judgement.
Like @isam I've been taking my own approach to government guidance for some time.
We’d better all hope the government doesn’t need to lockdown again hard. Because it is going to have absolutely no credibility getting engagement or even compliance.
Well, it’s cut through to the non-political people I know. My Mum (voted Blue last time and has been stalwart in her stance that we’ve got to be supportive of a Government trying to find their way through an unprecedented crisis) is really pissed off over this. Really pissed off. Forget whatever petty Leave-y or Remain-y tribalistic crap you may think of, this is two fingers up to everyone who followed the rules. Either Cummings is toast, or the restrictions are toast. Boris’s choice.
Sample of one down my way but a local resident who has been hugely (and personally) supportive messaged me this afternoon in fury saying that if Cummings doesn’t go, he will vote elsewhere.
Quite shaken by that. Despite fierce Tory tribal loyalty, I agree that Cummings should be fired. I absolutely know I would be calling for that had it been Alastair Campbell so.....
It has been said that the government were surprised at the public's obedience to the lockdown, Boris definitely seemed reluctant to enforce it.
Maybe it was only meant to be 'advisory'...
Advisory if you're Dominic Cummings, certainly.
They passed a law saying you shouldn’t leave your house save in exceptional circumstances and made it a criminal offence. That is hardly to be considered “advisory”.
It has been said that the government were surprised at the public's obedience to the lockdown, Boris definitely seemed reluctant to enforce it.
Maybe it was only meant to be 'advisory'...
It was supposed to generally increase social distancing. I stress the word "generally". It has been incredibly successful. More successful that the government imagined - success which has made it even more difficult to un-lockdown us.
It was not supposed to turn us in to a nation of craven, curtain-twitching, snitching rule-observers. We have dissolved into a petty frit nation, losing our sanity. Dan Hodges said it right earlier.
Who snitched on Cummings? Was it for money? Are we even asking these questions?
Well, that’s that on lockdown. For starters, I can go down and see my sister and her family later this week. I’ll just sit in the garden and we can chat. That won’t break any rules, in my judgement.
Like @isam I've been taking my own approach to government guidance for some time.
We’d better all hope the government doesn’t need to lockdown again hard. Because it is going to have absolutely no credibility getting engagement or even compliance.
You reckon? I thought you were like me in thinking that the bigger problem is going to be getting people to go back to normal.
It has been said that the government were surprised at the public's obedience to the lockdown, Boris definitely seemed reluctant to enforce it.
Maybe it was only meant to be 'advisory'...
Advisory if you're Dominic Cummings, certainly.
They passed a law saying you shouldn’t leave your house save in exceptional circumstances and made it a criminal offence. That is hardly to be considered “advisory”.
Yes, I could've sworn that they'd done that too.
But Grant Shapps assures me they didn't, so I must be misremembering.
Anyone who is not acquainted with Cannock Chase - it is highly recommended. It must be the Midlands’ best kept secret. It’s both beautiful and usually fairly quiet.
Really? The last time I was there it just said "M6 Services" and I did not think much of the cafe...
Yeah, well, you have to actually leave the m6 to get the full effect Bev (and yes, those services are awful).
But Cannock Wood, or Milford, or Sherbrook Valley, or Birches Valley, are just gorgeous.
You can LEAVE the M6 before Knutsford? Well, you learn something every day
Fortunately Britain isn't governed by polls, but by general elections...
The problem with your “we won bigly so suck it up losers” attitude is that in May 2024 or earlier you are going to have to defend it. If you’ve spent 5 years ignoring public opinion that may be difficult.
Well, that’s that on lockdown. For starters, I can go down and see my sister and her family later this week. I’ll just sit in the garden and we can chat. That won’t break any rules, in my judgement.
Like @isam I've been taking my own approach to government guidance for some time.
We’d better all hope the government doesn’t need to lockdown again hard. Because it is going to have absolutely no credibility getting engagement or even compliance.
You reckon? I thought you were like me in thinking that the bigger problem is going to be getting people to go back to normal.
People are much more keen to go to the beach than go back to work. Funny that.
Well, that’s that on lockdown. For starters, I can go down and see my sister and her family later this week. I’ll just sit in the garden and we can chat. That won’t break any rules, in my judgement.
Like @isam I've been taking my own approach to government guidance for some time.
We’d better all hope the government doesn’t need to lockdown again hard. Because it is going to have absolutely no credibility getting engagement or even compliance.
You reckon? I thought you were like me in thinking that the bigger problem is going to be getting people to go back to normal.
People are much more keen to go to the beach than go back to work. Funny that.
To be fair, I think that's more to do with not being as scared about the beach as they are of the train/tube/office etc.
It has been said that the government were surprised at the public's obedience to the lockdown, Boris definitely seemed reluctant to enforce it.
Maybe it was only meant to be 'advisory'...
It was supposed to generally increase social distancing. I stress the word "generally". It has been incredibly successful. More successful that the government imagined - success which has made it even more difficult to un-lockdown us.
It was not supposed to turn us in to a nation of craven, curtain-twitching, snitching rule-observers. We have dissolved into a petty frit nation, losing our sanity. Dan Hodges said it right earlier.
Who snitched on Cummings? Was it for money? Are we even asking these questions?
Presumably the neighbours.
Presumably they thought, "What the **** is that **** doing there when he and his colleagues are telling us to stay at home?"
And who could blame them? If they also nabbed a few grand from a private company running a national newspaper, then good luck to them and I hope they enjoy a nice holiday with it when safe to do so. No skin off my nose.
Well, that’s that on lockdown. For starters, I can go down and see my sister and her family later this week. I’ll just sit in the garden and we can chat. That won’t break any rules, in my judgement.
Like @isam I've been taking my own approach to government guidance for some time.
We’d better all hope the government doesn’t need to lockdown again hard. Because it is going to have absolutely no credibility getting engagement or even compliance.
You reckon? I thought you were like me in thinking that the bigger problem is going to be getting people to go back to normal.
It works both ways. The government is simply not going to be listened to as a moral authority by large numbers of people. They’ll make their own minds up and do as they please.
It does seem particularly incongruous to lock up visiting tourists and returning Britons for 14 days, while permitting actively viral travel to Durham.
His cartoons really are excellent.
I must say I don't agree with the majority on here that this will significantly undermine the lockdown.
People will largely observe the rules regardless I suspect. They'll just be really annoyed and even more suspicious of politicians.
Well, it’s cut through to the non-political people I know. My Mum (voted Blue last time and has been stalwart in her stance that we’ve got to be supportive of a Government trying to find their way through an unprecedented crisis) is really pissed off over this. Really pissed off. Forget whatever petty Leave-y or Remain-y tribalistic crap you may think of, this is two fingers up to everyone who followed the rules. Either Cummings is toast, or the restrictions are toast. Boris’s choice.
The restrictions have pretty well been history in England since Boris' 'fireside chat'.
Well, that’s that on lockdown. For starters, I can go down and see my sister and her family later this week. I’ll just sit in the garden and we can chat. That won’t break any rules, in my judgement.
In my judgment they'd better give back the money to everyone who has been fined for breaking these rules, if they were only advisory.
1979: The Tory manifesto included a free vote on hanging? Bloody hell!
I think I'm right in saying Thatcher was in favour of it and voted accordingly.
It's not that surprising - it was a fairly seriously debated issue until deep into the 1980s (still is now in some quarters, and probably has decent levels of public support, but is now a fringe issue with no serious prospect of success any time soon).
And Bank Holiday Monday looks to be absolutely lovely weather. If Dom’s still in post by Monday (and I suspect he will be), I reckon we’ll see a metric fuck-tonne of people defying the restrictions.
And, if those who are so sure it’s all over and we’re safe now are wrong, there will follow a big spike in cases and, 2-3 weeks later, an increase in deaths.
Now, maybe there would have been such behaviour anyway, at least to an extent, but now there’s a narrative to hang it off of and there will be those who would have complied who will now see this as an excuse.
The shielding period for the vulnerable is up in 3 weeks. What does Boris do if it’s up during a period when deaths are spiking upwards?
What happens when media are blaming those deaths - and any need for an extension of shielding or a re-lockdown - on this?
I mean, it’s a great story. Perfect for the media’s standard format of “Outrage, as...” plus “Government fuckup” and “Hypocrisy!”
And all Cummings and his defenders can do is see it through the “piss off the FBPE-crowd” spectacles.
What'll probably happen is that Cummings will "step back" for a few months, and return when everyone's attention is elsewhere.
After Cummings also issuing a fulsome apology as suggested by Lord Fink and Boris attending tomorrow's briefing in person. Leaving poor Grant Shapps out to dry this afternoon didn't sit well with me.
Fortunately Britain isn't governed by polls, but by general elections...
The problem with your “we won bigly so suck it up losers” attitude is that in May 2024 or earlier you are going to have to defend it. If you’ve spent 5 years ignoring public opinion that may be difficult.
I'll be only too happy to defend it.
The problem with your 'What's today's headline or poll? We must obey it like craven cowards' approach is that caving in to the opposition debilitates a government in the long term much more seriously than a few bad headlines.
It's obvious what anti-Tories want, and so by no means should we give it to them. Quite simple, really.
It has been said that the government were surprised at the public's obedience to the lockdown, Boris definitely seemed reluctant to enforce it.
Maybe it was only meant to be 'advisory'...
It was supposed to generally increase social distancing. I stress the word "generally". It has been incredibly successful. More successful that the government imagined - success which has made it even more difficult to un-lockdown us.
It was not supposed to turn us in to a nation of craven, curtain-twitching, snitching rule-observers. We have dissolved into a petty frit nation, losing our sanity. Dan Hodges said it right earlier.
Who snitched on Cummings? Was it for money? Are we even asking these questions?
do we care , the rat needs to go, someone performed a public duty and deserves a knighthood.
Wonder how those Lab-Tory switchers in the Northern Red Wall are feeling tonight?
I doubt most of them really care less about Cummings, they might think he is a bit of an idiot but they are not going to vote for Starmer over it.
If they switch back or to the Brexit Party it will be more likely to be if Boris extends the transition period which Leavers are still strongly opposed to
Labour to Tory switchers won't switch back if they think the Tories are a massive bunch of shysters who locked them indoors, stopped them visiting their ill Mum etc, but didn't follow the rules themselves?
You're on another planet.
Labour to Tory switchers from 2017 to 2019 did so for one reason and one reason alone, to deliver Brexit and in full ie out of the single market and with free movement ended.
Never apologise, never explain. If you do it once, it becomes a habit that is very hard to get out of.
Never complain, never explain was the Queen Mother's mantra - one her daughter adheres to. Some of the younger generation have gone a bit wobbly on that.....
What'll probably happen is that Cummings will "step back" for a few months, and return when everyone's attention is elsewhere.
After Cummings also issuing a fulsome apology as suggested by Lord Fink and Boris attending tomorrow's briefing in person. Leaving poor Grant Shapps out to dry this afternoon didn't sit well with me.
Par for the course for Bozo the Clown, run as fast as you can if not just a PR job. He would never have done as good a job as Schapps did given the hand he was dealt.
"The suspicion remains that somewhere, deep in their hearts, the cabinet’s collective reaction to this scandal – for such it is – is predicated on a still darker appreciation of an unwelcome political reality. Namely that the Prime Minister, whatever his other talents, is not actually up to the job of running the country in a moment such as this. "
Cedd? Dom's son is called Cedd. Apparently an Anglo Saxon saint. Dom obviously has ambitions for his offspring.
My first name, Alastair, is a variant of Alexander. My middle name is Stephen. Put together, that implies I will be a defender of mankind who is crowned.
I have often wondered about my parents’ ambitions for me.
Fortunately Britain isn't governed by polls, but by general elections...
The problem with your “we won bigly so suck it up losers” attitude is that in May 2024 or earlier you are going to have to defend it. If you’ve spent 5 years ignoring public opinion that may be difficult.
I'll be only too happy to defend it.
The problem with your 'What's today's headline or poll? We must obey it like craven cowards' approach is that caving in to the opposition debilitates a government in the long term much more seriously than a few bad headlines.
It's obvious what anti-Tories want, and so by no means should we give it to them. Quite simple, really.
You misrepresent my attitude. My attitude to this is that he should be prosecuted for a criminal offence and resign as a matter of honour given his actions as a potential super spreader of a contagious potentially lethal virus. That is what all people, Tory or otherwise, should believe.
1979: The Tory manifesto included a free vote on hanging? Bloody hell!
We still had hanging until the decade before
Wasn't capital punishment for treason still in place way, way after 1964?
Until Blair removed it yes
A couple of interesting facts are that the first country to abolish capital punishment was Venezuela in 1863 (although it's a bit of a debatable point as it had fallen out of use in other places and some states had abolished it in other places).
The first English speaking jurisdiction to abolish it was Michigan in 1847 (except technically for treason but never used).
Well, it’s cut through to the non-political people I know. My Mum (voted Blue last time and has been stalwart in her stance that we’ve got to be supportive of a Government trying to find their way through an unprecedented crisis) is really pissed off over this. Really pissed off. Forget whatever petty Leave-y or Remain-y tribalistic crap you may think of, this is two fingers up to everyone who followed the rules. Either Cummings is toast, or the restrictions are toast. Boris’s choice.
Sample of one down my way but a local resident who has been hugely (and personally) supportive messaged me this afternoon in fury saying that if Cummings doesn’t go, he will vote elsewhere.
Quite shaken by that. Despite fierce Tory tribal loyalty, I agree that Cummings should be fired. I absolutely know I would be calling for that had it been Alastair Campbell so.....
Message to Dom...
"Come on Dom....hang in there. The elites are after you...you are a disruptor, you are not even a Tory...stick a V sign and stay the course...."
Fortunately Britain isn't governed by polls, but by general elections...
The problem with your “we won bigly so suck it up losers” attitude is that in May 2024 or earlier you are going to have to defend it. If you’ve spent 5 years ignoring public opinion that may be difficult.
I'll be only too happy to defend it.
The problem with your 'What's today's headline or poll? We must obey it like craven cowards' approach is that caving in to the opposition debilitates a government in the long term much more seriously than a few bad headlines.
It's obvious what anti-Tories want, and so by no means should we give it to them. Quite simple, really.
You misrepresent my attitude. My attitude to this is that he should be prosecuted for a criminal offence and resign as a matter of honour given his actions as a potential super spreader of a contagious potentially lethal virus. That is what all people, Tory or otherwise, should believe.
Who's going to prosecute him? You? Because the police and the Attorney General aren't interested!
Fantastic. A lot of people who are so certain they've got him now would do well to look back on their myriad failures against him with a good measure of humility.
I think that is a knob thing to say.
Because this is nothing to do with Brexit. There are lots of things Cummings could have said that would have been true and pointed, but Brexit? He's like the worst Remoaner fighting the last war.
One of Cummings plays here is to turn it into a Culture War Leavers vs Remainders thing.
I'm starting to have a wobble on my Cummings to last till June bet. This level of movement is starting to smack of desperation rather than strength by the government.
Wonder how those Lab-Tory switchers in the Northern Red Wall are feeling tonight?
Why would they care? They voted Tory so we would leave the EU rather than have a second referendum, and we have. If they had voted Labour, we would have not left the EU, might not at all, Jeremy Corbuyn would be PM, and and we would be in the middle of a pandemic that's killing elderly and vulnerable people.
Yes, I think there is the potential for there being votes in this. And if the Northern Red Wall turns red again we might get Laura Pidcock back on our screens, giving us the unlimited benefit of her infinite wisdom while angling to run the country . So the Tories need to think fast if they are going to save us from that fate.
As Boris said the day after the GE, the votes were on loan and he had to convince them they'd done the right thing. I guess so far he has delivered Brexit, but the Coronavirus probably negates any credit he got for that, and possiby a bit more too
Corbyn and Swinson must be cursing themselves for allowing the GE, now they have to watch as Starmer and Davey get the public support that would have been theirs
Corbyn lost his veto on the election as soon as Swinson and the SNP indicated a willingness to go along with a December poll.
Fantastic. A lot of people who are so certain they've got him now would do well to look back on their myriad failures against him with a good measure of humility.
I think that is a knob thing to say.
Because this is nothing to do with Brexit. There are lots of things Cummings could have said that would have been true and pointed, but Brexit? He's like the worst Remoaner fighting the last war.
I have immense respect for your judgement, but come on, nothing to do with Brexit? The continuity Remainers (and I voted Remain myself, ffs, so that's hardly a slight on all Remainers) desperately want his scalp. The violation of the rules is just a happy pretext. He's their nemesis, their bogeyman, and they want to take him down. No other government adviser would attract this kind of wall-to-wall vitriol.
Ummm... if it was Jeremy Hunt who was in the firing line now, do you think my view would be any different?
Comments
We’d better all hope the government doesn’t need to lockdown again hard. Because it is going to have absolutely no credibility getting engagement or even compliance.
Quite shaken by that. Despite fierce Tory tribal loyalty, I agree that Cummings should be fired. I absolutely know I would be calling for that had it been Alastair Campbell so.....
It was not supposed to turn us in to a nation of craven, curtain-twitching, snitching rule-observers. We have dissolved into a petty frit nation, losing our sanity. Dan Hodges said it right earlier.
Who snitched on Cummings? Was it for money? Are we even asking these questions?
But Grant Shapps assures me they didn't, so I must be misremembering.
Presumably they thought, "What the **** is that **** doing there when he and his colleagues are telling us to stay at home?"
And who could blame them? If they also nabbed a few grand from a private company running a national newspaper, then good luck to them and I hope they enjoy a nice holiday with it when safe to do so. No skin off my nose.
Hanging is the one that should have been suspended.
I've been surprised how many normally supportive, Conservative-leaning columnists and journalists have come out against him.
I must say I don't agree with the majority on here that this will significantly undermine the lockdown.
People will largely observe the rules regardless I suspect. They'll just be really annoyed and even more suspicious of politicians.
No 10 said Cummings was in self-isolation at home in their press briefings when he disappeared from the scene .
What home ?
It's not that surprising - it was a fairly seriously debated issue until deep into the 1980s (still is now in some quarters, and probably has decent levels of public support, but is now a fringe issue with no serious prospect of success any time soon).
If Dom’s still in post by Monday (and I suspect he will be), I reckon we’ll see a metric fuck-tonne of people defying the restrictions.
And, if those who are so sure it’s all over and we’re safe now are wrong, there will follow a big spike in cases and, 2-3 weeks later, an increase in deaths.
Now, maybe there would have been such behaviour anyway, at least to an extent, but now there’s a narrative to hang it off of and there will be those who would have complied who will now see this as an excuse.
The shielding period for the vulnerable is up in 3 weeks. What does Boris do if it’s up during a period when deaths are spiking upwards?
What happens when media are blaming those deaths - and any need for an extension of shielding or a re-lockdown - on this?
I mean, it’s a great story. Perfect for the media’s standard format of “Outrage, as...” plus “Government fuckup” and “Hypocrisy!”
And all Cummings and his defenders can do is see it through the “piss off the FBPE-crowd” spectacles.
The problem with your 'What's today's headline or poll? We must obey it like craven cowards' approach is that caving in to the opposition debilitates a government in the long term much more seriously than a few bad headlines.
It's obvious what anti-Tories want, and so by no means should we give it to them. Quite simple, really.
Otherwise they would have stuck with Corbyn
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hugh-salmon/the-queen-never-complain-_b_1365308.html
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-dominic-cummings-must-go
I seem to recall that Gove had this view when he pulled the plug on a Johnson leadership run back in the day. Or did I dream that?
I have often wondered about my parents’ ambitions for me.
https://twitter.com/govuk/status/1264179319695388673?s=21
The first English speaking jurisdiction to abolish it was Michigan in 1847 (except technically for treason but never used).
Message to Dom...
"Come on Dom....hang in there. The elites are after you...you are a disruptor, you are not even a Tory...stick a V sign and stay the course...."
I'm starting to have a wobble on my Cummings to last till June bet. This level of movement is starting to smack of desperation rather than strength by the government.