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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polls aren’t moving but Labour shouldn’t be too concerned

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polls aren’t moving but Labour shouldn’t be too concerned

The government is presiding over a mounting coronavirus death toll, many ministers seem completely out of their depth, Keir Starmer is beginning to provide considered and serious opposition, so why aren’t the headline numbers in the polls even hinting at a change of mood? 

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    1st
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Excellent thread Southam, well done.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    It would be easier to maintain a certain degree of self respect, perhaps.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited May 2020
    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted), and the party rating should slowly come back to him.

    LotO is a nightmare job during a serious crisis, it's difficult to strike the right tone between holding the government to account, and micro-analysing decisions made under extreme pressure with the benefit of perfect hindsight.

    As we move to the post-lockdown phase, there will be somewhat more time for politics-as-usual, and Starmer will be able to highlight people who fall through the cracks of the various government programmes, as the decisions taken by ministers will be more political rather than scientific in nature.

    His biggest issue is still going to be party management, the hard left are still trying to dominate where they can, and are using very inflammatory language to describe government actions that goes down poorly with the public.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    Hancock takes the blame for a lot of that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    9th
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT.

    As a contrarian to those who aren't keen on the fuss about VE Day I think it can mean a lot to those from that generation still with us. And we should be grateful we still have some with us ... I was young for the comparable anniversary for WWI and didn't fully comprehend it's importance then, now there's nobody left from then.

    My wife's put a lot of effort into VE Day commemorations in the home she works at, they've been doing things through this week and it's been very much appreciated. She said yesterday there were a couple of people who'd fought in the war smiling with tears in their eyes.

    Like anything in life it can be abused but this anniversary is significant and meaningful to many we are fortunate to still have with us. We shouldn't take that for granted while we bicker about other things. We should pay less attention to those who abuse it and more attention to those we should appreciate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    Not sure why the government get blamed for "Ferguson". Even though his code / model are out dated, he is the countries leading expert on this and has been called upon by governments of all shades.

    And Turkish PPE, every country has got burned during this crisis. UK government got burned worse than some gowns from Turkey e.g. the antibody tests and fairly regular for PPE from China not to be what it says it is...and that is what the rest of Europe have experienced.

    NHS app (i have been critical) but we dont know that it is a disaster yet.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    Not sure why the government get blamed for "Ferguson". Even though his code / model are out dated, he is the countries leading expert on this and has been called upon by governments of all shades.

    And Turkish PPE, every country has got burned during this crisis. UK government got burned worse than some gowns from Turkey e.g. the antibody tests and fairly regular for PPE from China not to be what it says it is...and that is what the rest of Europe have experienced.

    NHS app (i have been critical) but we dont know that it is a disaster yet.
    So we have a useless expert with homemade crap outdated model as our best , numerous disasters on buying crap by having crap procurement, crap design of an APP purely for jingoistic , wanting to spy on people.
    Do they have any plus points or can they get any worse.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    Not sure why the government get blamed for "Ferguson". Even though his code / model are out dated, he is the countries leading expert on this and has been called upon by governments of all shades.

    And Turkish PPE, every country has got burned during this crisis. UK government got burned worse than some gowns from Turkey e.g. the antibody tests and fairly regular for PPE from China not to be what it says it is...and that is what the rest of Europe have experienced.

    NHS app (i have been critical) but we dont know that it is a disaster yet.
    Indeed. The crisis is fast moving and the government is doing as reasonable a job as can be expected. Mistakes will be made but that's inevitable in such a fast moving situation.

    What will shape the next election isn't this crisis it's the next 4 years. The economy will need resetting after this, care homes already needed sorting and are now rightly getting more attention. Healthcare is perennially an issue.

    This crisis will trigger conversations and actions that may never have happened otherwise but the next 4 years will decide the next election.

    Anyone who pays attention to today's polling is on a hiding to nothing. Both parties have a chance and nothing is guaranteed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Manchester City and England defender Kyle Walker says he feels he is "being harassed" after it was reported he had broken social distancing rules again.

    Can't a man have a sex party during lockdown without attracting criticism...its just plain harassment is what it is.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Surprise surprise from The English Overlords.............Ratty Hancock at his best...

    We have raised a specific issue with the UK Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Matt Hancock, about a decision that was taken with respect to the Department for International Trade overseas network and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issuing advice not to support new procurement requests from devolved administrations.

    The Department for International Trade’s overseas networks should be supporting the devolved Administrations, as parts of the UK.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It wasn't - the Editor of the Jewish Chronicle tweeted in his defence.....a while since he's done that for a Labour leader!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    Not sure why the government get blamed for "Ferguson". Even though his code / model are out dated, he is the countries leading expert on this and has been called upon by governments of all shades.
    He’s been fiddling Staats though.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    The big criticism of the government that is most likely to stick is the deaths in care homes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Damn. Just posted my brilliant interview advice on the last thread if anyone cares.

    Also, on the subject of being allowed to learn from expensive mistakes, the classic example is (well, apart from innumerable ministers over the decades) Jacob Rees-Mogg who famously was forgiven a $4 million mistake in the over a City takeover in a job he'd only got because Lloyd George (grandson of ...) knew his father, and now he's got more money than the Queen.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Excellent thread - I remember when that poll came out of Labour member's preferred leader with Starmer on top thinking "they're serious about getting back into government". Starmer still has a lot of stable cleaning to do, and the Labour brand has undoubtedly been tarnished - but as you observe he has time on his side and the choices that lie ahead for the government are a procession of lesser evils.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted), and the party rating should slowly come back to him.

    LotO is a nightmare job during a serious crisis, it's difficult to strike the right tone between holding the government to account, and micro-analysing decisions made under extreme pressure with the benefit of perfect hindsight.

    As we move to the post-lockdown phase, there will be somewhat more time for politics-as-usual, and Starmer will be able to highlight people who fall through the cracks of the various government programmes, as the decisions taken by ministers will be more political rather than scientific in nature.

    His biggest issue is still going to be party management, the hard left are still trying to dominate where they can, and are using very inflammatory language to describe government actions that goes down poorly with the public.

    He's getting a good honeymoon period with the membership, though there are always a few outliers. We had a virtual CLP meeting last night and the unanmimous feeling (from Corbynites like me to union activists to Labour Firsters) was that he'd made a good start and we shouldn't expect too much for now since the LOTO barely registers in the news. We felt the current Zoomed PMQs were both far more interesting watching than the traditional bearpit and also ideal for Starmer - we were agnostic on how he'd do in a chamber full of shouty people, but that's not expected any time soon.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Starmer's the real deal.

    I think most importantly no one feels the 'fear' which people would have with Corbyn. He's on the left, but he's not going to do anything stupid. He doesn't say anything stupid, he's not got the mad outrunners which just want to watch the world burn. Sure he might push taxes up and make the rich pay more, but he's not going to destroy the engines.

    He seems to truly respect people, and people across the political spectrum.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited May 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Starmer thing was unfortunate, better have just said oh I need to get my daughter. But it isn't a big deal and won't even register, unless it becomes a pattern of appearing to only do things for the photo op. But he is too smart to make a such clumsy sounding slip up again.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    If I was a Labour supporter I would be concerned about Starmer's ability to miss open goals.

    He's likely to get plenty more opportunities in future so perhaps he'll get better.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    And still to this today has cosy Zoom chats with them.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    surely the point about VE day is that we aren;t allowed to celebrate it.

    We currently don;t have the freedoms our fathers and grandfathers fought for.

    They have been stripped from us on a dubious premise designed by man who has been shown to be a wildly inaccurate hypocrite.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited May 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It came across as treating something that should be spontaneous, into something he wanted to be scripted and stage-managed.

    In the grand scheme of things though, it's tomorrow's chip paper - assuming he doesn't make a habit of such slip-ups that could develop into a media 'narrative'.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Manchester City and England defender Kyle Walker says he feels he is "being harassed" after it was reported he had broken social distancing rules again.

    Can't a man have a sex party during lockdown without attracting criticism...its just plain harassment is what it is.

    These are tough times for the prostitution industry, and I think we should all pay a little more respect to a man public-spirited enough to want to do his bit to help out.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    And still to this today has cosy Zoom chats with them.
    Please tell me that was a very unfunny attempt at a joke.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    surely the point about VE day is that we aren;t allowed to celebrate it.

    We currently don;t have the freedoms our fathers and grandfathers fought for.

    They have been stripped from us on a dubious premise designed by man who has been shown to be a wildly inaccurate hypocrite.

    *Checks watch*

    *Raises eyebrows*

    Have you considered AA?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted), and the party rating should slowly come back to him.

    LotO is a nightmare job during a serious crisis, it's difficult to strike the right tone between holding the government to account, and micro-analysing decisions made under extreme pressure with the benefit of perfect hindsight.

    As we move to the post-lockdown phase, there will be somewhat more time for politics-as-usual, and Starmer will be able to highlight people who fall through the cracks of the various government programmes, as the decisions taken by ministers will be more political rather than scientific in nature.

    His biggest issue is still going to be party management, the hard left are still trying to dominate where they can, and are using very inflammatory language to describe government actions that goes down poorly with the public.

    He's getting a good honeymoon period with the membership, though there are always a few outliers. We had a virtual CLP meeting last night and the unanmimous feeling (from Corbynites like me to union activists to Labour Firsters) was that he'd made a good start and we shouldn't expect too much for now since the LOTO barely registers in the news. We felt the current Zoomed PMQs were both far more interesting watching than the traditional bearpit and also ideal for Starmer - we were agnostic on how he'd do in a chamber full of shouty people, but that's not expected any time soon.
    Go back to before the lockdown and PMQs was already quiet because Tory whips told their side to STFU in order that Boris could hear the questions and think. What little noise there now is comes from Labour, and that's mainly "hear, hear" and similar meaningless utterances. It is interesting, in this light, to wonder if Tory barracking over the years actively harmed their own leaders.

    It will be interesting to see what CCHQ comes up with if SKS continues to do well. Paternity leave; overseas summits; reversion to two sessions so SKS has only three questions each time, making it harder to develop an argument and giving Boris two "last words"?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited May 2020
    What's everyone reading during lockdown ? I am not a great fiction reader but read some non fiction in the last 7 weeks including

    The Games - David Goldblatt (history of the Olympics)
    The Crucibles greatest matches -Hector Nunns (I love snooker and any "pub" game)
    Who dares wins -Dominic Sandbrook (Britain 1979-1982)
    The medal factory - About British Cycling and its recent triumphs and tribulations.
    A better betting with a decent fellow - A social history of Bookmaking
    A short history of Europe - Simon Jenkins
    A short history of London -Simon Jenkins
    Ghosts at the table - a history of poker
    Airhead -Emily Maitlis

    Quite proud of myself even if all on my sort of hobbies!
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Manchester City and England defender Kyle Walker says he feels he is "being harassed" after it was reported he had broken social distancing rules again.

    Can't a man have a sex party during lockdown without attracting criticism...its just plain harassment is what it is.

    These are tough times for the prostitution industry, and I think we should all pay a little more respect to a man public-spirited enough to want to do his bit to help out.
    Now SeanT has mellowed out a bit, I'm sure its been very trying times.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Afternoon all :)

    An excellent thread, @SouthamObserver for which many thanks and I don't disagree. Starmer has started well and paradoxically the covid-19 crisis gives him time to get his feet under the table and control of the Party as the Government is or are the ones taking the big decisions and will of course have to accept the scrutiny that goes with it.

    Labour has to come up with a policy programme for the late 2020s and beyond - imagining a Britain with a different relationship to the world than it has had for the past 50 years - clear of the EU but still having to find its place (economic, cultural, strategic) in the world.

    I've said on here leaving the EU provided the opportunity to re-think the concept of the nation state from the bottom up (or the top down) and Labour has that opportunity to imagine a very different Britain - hopefully with power much more devolved to re-invigorate politics at local level but also retaining the linkage that is what we are as English (or Scottish, Welsh or Irish or British and we must never forget many who have come here to settle see themselves first and foremost as British).

    It will be interesting to see if Starmer has the vision to make Labour a truly progressive party - if so, he will deserve support.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    And still to this today has cosy Zoom chats with them.
    Please tell me that was a very unfunny attempt at a joke.
    Nope...

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/corbyn-joins-abbott-ribeiro-addy-anther-antisemitic-zoom-chat/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    People will be able to exercise outside more than once a day in Wales, with some libraries, recycling centres and garden centres set to re-open too, First Minister Mark Drakeford has said.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    I think you are being unfair

    1. Care homes - that was either an oversight or a deliberate consequence of a desire to protect capacity in the NHS at all costs. It’s fair to blame the government. But it’s interesting that every other government made the same choice

    2. Late lockdown - he followed the guidance from SAGE. That’s the right thing to do.

    3. Turkish PPE - until you have it you can’t test it. I’d rather money was wasted buying stuff on spec than not having enough. Has any hospital *actually* run out of PPE?

    4. Ferguson. Why is one mans inability to keep his duck in his pants and his willingness to break the rules the governments fault? 😏

    5. NHS App. haven’t followed the story closely enough. But if it’s no good then that is blameworthy

    I don’t see 5 as being more than a Hancock level issue. 1 might be, depending on the fact pattern
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    Corbyn's problem with antisemitism was two-fold. First, there really were active and noisy antisemites readmitted up north. More importantly, the definition of antisemitism changed to encompass being anti-Israel (as the Jewish state) thus condemning Corbyn's decades of interference in the Middle East. Corbyn was not anti-Jewish in the classic sense. Indeed, given Corbyn is an Arsenal season ticket holder, it is telling that his enemies could not even find him using the y-word to describe Spurs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    And still to this today has cosy Zoom chats with them.
    Please tell me that was a very unfunny attempt at a joke.
    Nope...

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/corbyn-joins-abbott-ribeiro-addy-anther-antisemitic-zoom-chat/
    Countdown to someone shooting the messenger instead of addressing the message in 3, 2 ...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    MaxPB said:

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.


  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    I haven't put these up for a while.
    Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria still fairly exponential. Europe leveling out as is well known.



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It came across as treating something that should be spontaneous, into something he wanted to be scripted and stage-managed.

    In the grand scheme of things though, it's tomorrow's chip paper - assuming he doesn't make a habit of such slip-ups that could develop into a media 'narrative'.
    How is a nationwide weekly clap, at a set time, in any way ‘spontaneous’ ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    Corbyn's problem with antisemitism was two-fold. First, there really were active and noisy antisemites readmitted up north. More importantly, the definition of antisemitism changed to encompass being anti-Israel (as the Jewish state) thus condemning Corbyn's decades of interference in the Middle East. Corbyn was not anti-Jewish in the classic sense. Indeed, given Corbyn is an Arsenal season ticket holder, it is telling that his enemies could not even find him using the y-word to describe Spurs.
    So not using the y-word means you're not an anti-Semite? Low bar you're setting there.

    I suppose maybe Jews just needed to get a better understanding of English irony ...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020
    What should worry Labour is the last 2 leaders of the opposition to lead their parties into Government in the last 25 years ie Tony Blair and David Cameron, both took poll leads for their party straight after being elected party leader. Starmer however is seeing Labour currently polling no better than the Tories were under IDS was when he was elected Tory leader in similar circumstances in 2001 as 9/11 overshadowed his election as Covid overshadowed Starmer's election.

    However events could still change things as the Iraq War cut Blair's poll lead drastically from 2003 as the impact of Covid and hard Brexit and the end of the transition period in December could slash Boris' poll lead
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    And still to this today has cosy Zoom chats with them.
    Please tell me that was a very unfunny attempt at a joke.
    Terrorists giving Zoom bombing a whole new meaning?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Promising (but early stage) research.

    Structural Basis for Potent Neutralization of Betacoronaviruses by Single-Domain Camelid Antibodies
    https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30494-3.pdf
    ... Coronaviruses make use of a large envelope protein called spike (S) to engage host cell receptors and cata- lyze membrane fusion. Because of the vital role that these S proteins play, they represent a vulnerable target for the development of therapeutics. Here, we describe the isolation of single-domain antibodies (VHHs) from a llama immunized with prefusion-stabilized coronavirus spikes. These VHHs neutralize MERS-CoV or SARS- CoV-1 S pseudotyped viruses, respectively. Crystal structures of these VHHs bound to their respective viral targets reveal two distinct epitopes, but both VHHs interfere with receptor binding. We also show cross-reac- tivity between the SARS-CoV-1 S-directed VHH and SARS-CoV-2 S and demonstrate that this cross-reactive VHH neutralizes SARS-CoV-2 S pseudotyped viruses as a bivalent human IgG Fc-fusion. These data provide a molecular basis for the neutralization of pathogenic betacoronaviruses by VHHs and suggest that these molecules may serve as useful therapeutics during coronavirus outbreaks....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    Keir Starmer is a breath of fresh opposition, however don’t underestimate the ability of the Labour Party to find a way to miss an open goal.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    They might get to a hung parliment. But I can't see overturning a 80 seat majority to another majority in one sitting. Not unless they change the situation in Scotland, which doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon, unless the SNP implode.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    I think you are being unfair

    1. Care homes - that was either an oversight or a deliberate consequence of a desire to protect capacity in the NHS at all costs. It’s fair to blame the government. But it’s interesting that every other government made the same choice

    2. Late lockdown - he followed the guidance from SAGE. That’s the right thing to do.

    3. Turkish PPE - until you have it you can’t test it. I’d rather money was wasted buying stuff on spec than not having enough. Has any hospital *actually* run out of PPE?

    4. Ferguson. Why is one mans inability to keep his duck in his pants and his willingness to break the rules the governments fault? 😏

    5. NHS App. haven’t followed the story closely enough. But if it’s no good then that is blameworthy

    I don’t see 5 as being more than a Hancock level issue. 1 might be, depending on the fact pattern
    I love "keep his duck in his pants" - advice we should all follow.

    I am not trying to be fair or unfair, just pointing out that the cockups are piling up to the extent that an overall impression of incompetence is increasing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    Taxes are not going up, Boris and Sunak will borrow rather than put up tax
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    America certainly facilitated much of the financial activity. 'Providing' the money sounds a good deal more benevolent than what happened.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    I was interested to read that the British actually had an immense navy serving under US command in the final months of the war, and that huge British forces were ear-marked for the invasion of Japan, had it gone ahead.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Back to matters more mundane.

    It will be interesting to see ho the re-opening of civic amenity sites on Monday in many authorities goes in terms of queues. Poor weather forecast for many areas might dampen (literally) the desire to get up early and head for the dump but I still think we will see plenty of pictures of queues.

    The two horror stories coming out of this are care homes which we are already discussing and the rise in domestic violence about which little has been said. I'm aware of a number of authorities frantically seeking to bring former sites into use as refuges for the surge in domestic violence cases - I think we will hear some really unpleasant stories coming out.

    As for care homes, I'll simply point out local councils have been spending money like water in the past six weeks and for all Sunak's largesse it is really a drop in the ocean. Prioritising where the Government money goes is a huge issue - some have looked at spending on temporary hospitals, mortuaries and provision of food parcels for those on the sheltered list (which numbers tens if not hundreds of thousands nationally).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    I wouldn't say favourites, but the Tories will have been in office for 14 years, so time for a change will resonate as a message.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993

    Manchester City and England defender Kyle Walker says he feels he is "being harassed" after it was reported he had broken social distancing rules again.

    Can't a man have a sex party during lockdown without attracting criticism...its just plain harassment is what it is.

    These are tough times for the prostitution industry, and I think we should all pay a little more respect to a man public-spirited enough to want to do his bit to help out.
    Of just prostitution- shoplifters and burglArs are having a tough time too. No handouts for them

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020
    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    An excellent thread Joff. My advice to the Labour leadership would be to have a think about how they’ll react to the really big decisions. So far they’ve been in the comfortable position to criticise the execution of policy. More tests and PPE - who would support more of that?

    But at some point the government will face some stark choices. For example, would Labour support a bailout of one or more banks? When tax rises are announced, Labour will inevitably want to criticise them, but how would they pay for this? The public may be more supportive of tax rises than Labour expects.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Scott_xP said:
    I'm guessing that's going to be announced on Sunday. It's almost petty after the complaints about not moving as one they rush out to announce everything first.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Just back from a nice walk around town, and the news from this corner of Hertfordshire is that I'm confident for the first time that the lockdown is disintegrating.

    The numbers out exercising don't appear to be excessive, and the train station car park is as quiet as usual, but the roads are definitely busier. Maybe not quite as busy as on a normal bank holiday, but not a million miles from it.

    Methinks that the public are moving out of lockdown ahead of Government, just as they were one step ahead going into it. Yes, some of the extra traffic is probably shopping-related (there was a queue outside Morrisons in town, so experience suggests that the one at Tesco will be very much lengthier,) but I reckon there's also quite a lot of family visiting going on.

    If the car journey stats in the Government daily briefings don't show a continued uptick, relative to previous weeks, in the coming days then I shall be surprised.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    And still to this today has cosy Zoom chats with them.
    Please tell me that was a very unfunny attempt at a joke.
    Nope...

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/corbyn-joins-abbott-ribeiro-addy-anther-antisemitic-zoom-chat/
    Oh, good grief.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    What's everyone reading during lockdown ? I am not a great fiction reader but read some non fiction in the last 7 weeks including

    The Games - David Goldblatt (history of the Olympics)
    The Crucibles greatest matches -Hector Nunns (I love snooker and any "pub" game)
    Who dares wins -Dominic Sandbrook (Britain 1979-1982)
    The medal factory - About British Cycling and its recent triumphs and tribulations.
    A better betting with a decent fellow - A social history of Bookmaking
    A short history of Europe - Simon Jenkins
    A short history of London -Simon Jenkins
    Ghosts at the table - a history of poker
    Airhead -Emily Maitlis

    Quite proud of myself even if all on my sort of hobbies!

    That's a good effort in 7 weeks. I've managed only a Japanese novel by David Mitchell and approx 100 pages of Alistair Campbell's diaries - this latter quite a test of resilience and willpower.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Sean_F said:


    I was interested to read that the British actually had an immense navy serving under US command in the final months of the war, and that huge British forces were ear-marked for the invasion of Japan, had it gone ahead.

    When the Japanese capitulated after the dropping of the atomic bombs, Mountbatten found himself in de facto command of a vast area of territory in south east Asia.

    He and his staff had planned an invasion of Malaya for September 1945 (Operation Zipper) leading to Operation Mailfist, the liberation of Singapore, planned for early 1946.

    Instead, he had to deal with Japanese troops in Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaya, Singapore and elsewhere as well as Allied POWs across a vast area.

    Mountbatten took the surrender of the Japanese Southern Army Group in Singapore on 12th September.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    His personal ratings are good (last night's slip-up excepted)

    Was last night a slip up ?

    The press are always going to be videoing the new LOTO clapping for NHS workers, clearly he was keeping his daughter out of shot whilst the cameras "got what they needed".
    It was an unfortunate way of putting it. He would have been better served by asking ‘have you got what you wanted?’ because unfortunately our media are that petty and stupid (especially to Labour politicians).

    Ultimately however it will only matter if it feeds a wider narrative. Cameron being caught getting a flashier car and lying about his reasons, or having his car follow him with a clean shirt while he ostentatiously cycled to work, didn’t ultimately resonate because he was considered fairly solid. Miliband’s banana and other Miliband’s bacon sandwich resonated because everyone thought (however unfairly) they were socially clueless geeks.
    Indeed. Corbyn's mural/wreath/etc resonated because he was seen as an anti-Semite surrounding himself with people like Williamson, Livingstone etc who were too.
    Slightly different in his case, because what they showed despite his feeble denials was that he was an antisemite. People who are not raving antisemites people don’t share platforms with Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, or lay wreaths at terrorists’ graves and come up with unconvincing lies to explain away the photos.
    Corbyn's problem with antisemitism was two-fold. First, there really were active and noisy antisemites readmitted up north. More importantly, the definition of antisemitism changed to encompass being anti-Israel (as the Jewish state) thus condemning Corbyn's decades of interference in the Middle East. Corbyn was not anti-Jewish in the classic sense. Indeed, given Corbyn is an Arsenal season ticket holder, it is telling that his enemies could not even find him using the y-word to describe Spurs.
    Rubbish. Corbyn’s problem was he disliked Jews unless they shared his profoundly anti-Jewish beliefs (which is oddly not that uncommon).

    You don’t have to share platforms with raving neo-Nazis and honour mass murderers to be a trenchant critic of Israel and its actions. If you do you show what kind of person you are.

    And incidentally his refusal to admit it and his repeated lies on the matter demonstrates his moral cowardice, although I know this conflicts with his carefully crafted public image.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    tlg86 said:

    An excellent thread Joff. My advice to the Labour leadership would be to have a think about how they’ll react to the really big decisions. So far they’ve been in the comfortable position to criticise the execution of policy. More tests and PPE - who would support more of that?

    But at some point the government will face some stark choices. For example, would Labour support a bailout of one or more banks? When tax rises are announced, Labour will inevitably want to criticise them, but how would they pay for this? The public may be more supportive of tax rises than Labour expects.

    Starmer will push for wealth taxes and a return to the 50% top rate of income tax, the Tories will not raise tax on the rich
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    And yet stock exchanges in Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are apparently open for business.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. D, more than petty, it's stupid and confusing.

    There is a case for differing lockdown easing/imposition but that's got to depend on circumstances, not just be an all-England/Scotland/Wales approach. Big cities across the UK may need to act differently to villages.

    FPT: Mr. Away, I always have a book by my computer, usually one I've already read, that I can delve into when doing scans or waiting for something. I'm about 5/6 into Journey to the West right now.

    Also halfway through the third of Phil Tucker's Chronicles of the Black Gate, a fantasy series I'm really rather enjoying.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    Brexit has square root of nothing to do with it.

    Today is the anniversary of the liberation of Europe from the Nazis and the end of one of the worst evils the world has ever seen. Today's mundane international politics isn't relevant.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    And yet stock exchanges in Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are apparently open for business.
    VE day isn't normally a bank holiday. It was for the 75th anniversary.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    I wouldn't say favourites, but the Tories will have been in office for 14 years, so time for a change will resonate as a message.
    Did not for Kinnock in 1992 after 13 years of Tory rule, though he made gains, did for Cameron in 2010 after 13 years of Labour rule but still not enough for a Tory majority
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020
    Interesting to see the changes since 2010, Torbay just declared as a LD hold, now a big Tory majority, Putney as a Tory hold, now gained by Labour.

    Kingswood as a Tory gain, the only seat still Tory
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    Tax harms the economy and cuts growth. Why put it up?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    And yet stock exchanges in Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are apparently open for business.
    VE day isn't normally a bank holiday. It was for the 75th anniversary.
    IIRC it was also in 1995 (50th anniversary).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Scott_xP said:
    I think garden centres are coming here too. I think that will be the big bazooka in Johnson's speech on Sunday.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited May 2020
    TSE breaking travel restrictions in the Smoke?

    https://twitter.com/suzanne_moore/status/1258688913012674561?s=20
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    Brexit has square root of nothing to do with it.

    Today is the anniversary of the liberation of Europe from the Nazis and the end of one of the worst evils the world has ever seen. Today's mundane international politics isn't relevant.
    Which Europe? 1945 also saw half of Europe occupied by the Soviets for over 40 years...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:


    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748

    Do you not think it would be equally appropriate later this year to similarly honour and remember our forces who were still fighting in the Far East when the European war ended?

    Burma was often called "the forgotten war" and while we think of the POWs and the Bridge over the River Kwai, the perception is the Americans did all the fighting against the Japanese which not only forgets the contribution of the British but also the Australians, the Chinese, the Indians and local resistance movements such as the Viet Minh who fought the Japanese but also wanted independence from France.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    I wouldn't say favourites, but the Tories will have been in office for 14 years, so time for a change will resonate as a message.
    Yes indeed - it will be time for a change.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. HYUFD, I wonder if that perception, which is entirely understandable, might be focusing on the wrong thing.

    Maybe it's as much to do with the unacceptable opposition becoming acceptable as the state of the Government.

    [That said, if I were Starmer I'd rather face Boris Johnson than Rishi Sunak].
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    I wouldn't say favourites, but the Tories will have been in office for 14 years, so time for a change will resonate as a message.
    Did not for Kinnock in 1992 after 13 years of Tory rule, though he made gains, did for Cameron in 2010 after 13 years of Labour rule but still not enough for a Tory majority
    Did for Wilson in 1964 after 13 years of Conservative rule.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    RobD said:


    VE day isn't normally a bank holiday. It was for the 75th anniversary.

    Liberation Day is an annual public holiday in the Channel Islands.

  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I think garden centres are coming here too. I think that will be the big bazooka in Johnson's speech on Sunday.
    more popgun than bazooka
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    kinabalu said:

    What's everyone reading during lockdown ? I am not a great fiction reader but read some non fiction in the last 7 weeks including

    The Games - David Goldblatt (history of the Olympics)
    The Crucibles greatest matches -Hector Nunns (I love snooker and any "pub" game)
    Who dares wins -Dominic Sandbrook (Britain 1979-1982)
    The medal factory - About British Cycling and its recent triumphs and tribulations.
    A better betting with a decent fellow - A social history of Bookmaking
    A short history of Europe - Simon Jenkins
    A short history of London -Simon Jenkins
    Ghosts at the table - a history of poker
    Airhead -Emily Maitlis

    Quite proud of myself even if all on my sort of hobbies!

    That's a good effort in 7 weeks. I've managed only a Japanese novel by David Mitchell and approx 100 pages of Alistair Campbell's diaries - this latter quite a test of resilience and willpower.
    I finished The Mirror and the Light earlier in the week (incidentally, the only item on middle-class lockdown bingo that I've ticked off). Almost 900 pages, and something of a struggle too. It's the weakest of the three, though I feel the trilogy as a whole has been rather over-hyped. Am now halfway through Ali Smith's Hotel World - an altogether more satisfying read.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    And yet stock exchanges in Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are apparently open for business.
    VE day isn't normally a bank holiday. It was for the 75th anniversary.
    My point was (in response to HYUFD) that the UK is apparently taking it more seriously than our European friends.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I agree. I would rather be SKS than Boris Johnson at the moment.

    Boris can (and will) make Hancock the fall guy. He's still PM with an 80 seat majority after this.
    Care homes, late lockdown, Turkish PPE, Ferguson, NHS app, and, crucially, our final position on the leaderboard. More heads than just Hancock's will be needed.
    Not sure why the government get blamed for "Ferguson". Even though his code / model are out dated, he is the countries leading expert on this and has been called upon by governments of all shades.
    He’s been fiddling Staats though.
    He's adept in alg-her-bra?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    An excellent thread Joff. My advice to the Labour leadership would be to have a think about how they’ll react to the really big decisions. So far they’ve been in the comfortable position to criticise the execution of policy. More tests and PPE - who would support more of that?

    But at some point the government will face some stark choices. For example, would Labour support a bailout of one or more banks? When tax rises are announced, Labour will inevitably want to criticise them, but how would they pay for this? The public may be more supportive of tax rises than Labour expects.

    Starmer will push for wealth taxes and a return to the 50% top rate of income tax, the Tories will not raise tax on the rich
    The Tories have spent the last decade putting taxes up on the rich where appropriate. You are an embarrassment for the party, a far left stereotype of a heartless Tory bastard.
  • What's everyone reading during lockdown ? I am not a great fiction reader but read some non fiction in the last 7 weeks including

    The Games - David Goldblatt (history of the Olympics)
    The Crucibles greatest matches -Hector Nunns (I love snooker and any "pub" game)
    Who dares wins -Dominic Sandbrook (Britain 1979-1982)
    The medal factory - About British Cycling and its recent triumphs and tribulations.
    A better betting with a decent fellow - A social history of Bookmaking
    A short history of Europe - Simon Jenkins
    A short history of London -Simon Jenkins
    Ghosts at the table - a history of poker
    Airhead -Emily Maitlis

    Quite proud of myself even if all on my sort of hobbies!

    I've been at home for 11 weeks (two in probably needless household isolation) because I had four weeks of paternity leave before the lockdown began, but I've read much less than usual because commuting to work by train provided my main opportunity to read. Signs are that won't be happening again for many months (ironically given my work is mostly concerned with rail) which means I'll very reluctantly be spending that reading time with the kids.

    Reading Mountains of the Mind at the moment. Mallory just kicked the bucket.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    And yet stock exchanges in Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are apparently open for business.
    VE day isn't normally a bank holiday. It was for the 75th anniversary.
    IIRC it was also in 1995 (50th anniversary).
    Well remembered. 8 May 1995 was a Monday so the holiday was postponed by a week. On that occasion it may have been flagged up well in advance, before calendars were printed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I know it's a long way out but I make Labour favourites for the next election. Reason - the tough choice the Tories will face on tax. Big spending cuts are out so tax is going up - a lot - once the economy is off its knees. If they do this in steeply progressive fashion hitting the affluent - by which I mean not just the rich but the many millions who are merely comfortable - they lose their traditional base. And if they don't, they lose their new base, the RedWallers.

    Taxes are not going up, Boris and Sunak will borrow rather than put up tax
    They can try that but it carries enormous political risks. It will allow Labour to run as the party of sound money and fiscal responsibility. Combined with their usual USP of social justice, this will make for a formidable offering.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    I wanted to respond to Cyclefree's excellent contribution on the previous thread.

    I understand her frustration at the VE-day celebrations. We emphasise this rather than VJ-day and there was still a major conflict going on in Asia when we were celebrating the defeat of Nazi Germany.

    Yet Liberation Day (and that in many ways is far more appropriate a title) is still celebrated every year in the Channel Islands and we have little or no perception of what it is like to be conquered and the sheer unalloyed joy of liberation and the restoration of freedom.

    Apart from countries which were neutral in both World Wars only Britain of all the nations of Europe has never experienced what it is like to be conquered in modern times. To have hostile foreign troops walking down your streets, to be told what you do and when to do it by "the enemy" and to be second class citizens in your own country.

    I think it's right we continue to celebrate our liberation and that of the world from the darkness of Naziism and celebrate all those who contributed to that including the USSR and the various resistance groups. We were alone for a while but we won with the help of large parts of the rest of the world. As someone said the Americans provided the money, the Russians provided the blood and we provided the time.

    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748
    Brexit has square root of nothing to do with it.

    Today is the anniversary of the liberation of Europe from the Nazis and the end of one of the worst evils the world has ever seen. Today's mundane international politics isn't relevant.
    It does actually to some degree.

    80% of Leavers think it is right to celebrate VE Day but only 61% of Remainers do
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/arts/survey-results/daily/2020/04/29/70023/1?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Daily_Questions&utm_campaign=Question_2
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    TSE breaking travel restrictions in the Smoke?

    https://twitter.com/suzanne_moore/status/1258688913012674561?s=20

    Nah, that's @Dura_Ace
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Indeed, even Berlin is celebrating VE Day today as liberation from Nazi rule.

    The only people who are not seem to be a few diehard Remainers like Alistair Meeks and Cyclefree who refuse to join Brexiteers in celebrating anything and the AfD in Germany who refuse to celebrate a German defeat, even if it was the Nazis defeated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52574748

    Do you not think it would be equally appropriate later this year to similarly honour and remember our forces who were still fighting in the Far East when the European war ended?

    Burma was often called "the forgotten war" and while we think of the POWs and the Bridge over the River Kwai, the perception is the Americans did all the fighting against the Japanese which not only forgets the contribution of the British but also the Australians, the Chinese, the Indians and local resistance movements such as the Viet Minh who fought the Japanese but also wanted independence from France.
    Yes, we can celebrate VJ Day too
This discussion has been closed.