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  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Do we know when the Apple/google effort is going to role out its app?

    And will there be any reason why people wont/cant just down load that one when its available?

    I realise it would be much less effective if some people used one while other used a different one, but could you choos to have both on your phone?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    glw said:

    IanB2 said:

    An early teething problem with the IOW NHS App is that it requires at least IOS version 11 or Android version 8. There appear to be older phones in circulation that can’t install it.

    That is 60% of Android phones (those using the Play Store currently), Google enables 95% reach by supporting Android 5.0.
    So that's the *poorest* 40% of android users and a smaller percentage of the *poorest* apple users locked out because some London based coding dweeb has said "What do you mean, legacy systems? EVERYBODY I KNOW is using IoS 13".

    Everything about this is looking like a May grade clusterfuck.
    May grade is good.
    I never learn, I greet every new tory leader with a genuine and heartfelt belief that they are going to pivot towards basic competence.
    It's the hope that kills you etc.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Scott_xP said:

    It seems a bit odd to criticise the government for the uninformed speculation of the press.

    You have to give the press credit though for all independently arriving at exactly the same uninformed speculative outcome...

    Miraculous.
    They always do. Haven't you noticed that over the years? That's probably because they copy each other's speculation.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    The cynic tells me that SNP Govt looking for something different they can do that won't backfire. Previous stunts on business support and local govt finance have not gone well. I think lockdown could have worked but looks like Boris has done a reverse ferret and closed it down.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1258400776038363137?s=20

    Is anyone doing similar graphs for Scotland & Wales?

    Any use? This also has the total NRS 'registry office' data further down, week on week. https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited May 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Latest comment on the NHSX app Bluetooth issues (long thread, conclusion is we still don't know yet).
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1258327399391006720

    Surely that's the easiest thing to check? Just get a phone and see if it needs to be constantly reactivated.

    I wonder if they have some form of agreement with Apple bend the rules a little. Of course, they would strenuously deny such a thing...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    Scott_xP said:

    It seems a bit odd to criticise the government for the uninformed speculation of the press.

    You have to give the press credit though for all independently arriving at exactly the same uninformed speculative outcome...

    Miraculous.
    They always do. Haven't you noticed that over the years? That's probably because they copy each other's speculation.

    It would, of course, be totally unknown for the government (or its spokespeople) to slip a few messages to favoured journalists in sympathetic outlets.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    The Rochdales, Southern Observers and Jonathans of this Parish could be in for a long four and a half years.

    Explaining why, Mr watching paint dry not being 20% ahead, as they predicted, is Corbyns fault.

    Its going to be fun watching the excuses.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    You know that isn’t true. The voting system turned an unclear vote into a clear result.
    The vote was clear. Just because you don't like the result doesn't change it. Just as Tories had to in 97 and 01.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    'The polls leading up to elections day had narrowed but there was almost nothing to suggest anything other than TMay was going to secure another CON majority.'

    I am afraid that is simply wrong! In the last week of the 2017 campaign there were several polls showing Tory leads in the range of 1% - 4% . As some of us pointed out at the time, such polls were suggesting the serious possibility of a Hung Parliament. Yougov's seat by seat projection was also pointing that way.Beyond that , the fact that the Tory GB was narrow despite the very clear surge they were getting in Scotland did imply that the anti-Tory swing in England & Wales was higher than indicated by the headline GB figures.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Rochdales, Southern Observers and Jonathans of this Parish could be in for a long four and a half years.

    Explaining why, Mr watching paint dry not being 20% ahead, as they predicted, is Corbyns fault.

    Its going to be fun watching the excuses.

    While it will be fun watching you explain why there's no difference between Mr watching paint dry and the Tories only to pivot at the election to saying how great Mr watching paint dry is and how much he needs to win.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    Scott_xP said:

    It seems a bit odd to criticise the government for the uninformed speculation of the press.

    You have to give the press credit though for all independently arriving at exactly the same uninformed speculative outcome...

    Miraculous.
    They always do. Haven't you noticed that over the years? That's probably because they copy each other's speculation.

    It would, of course, be totally unknown for the government (or its spokespeople) to slip a few messages to favoured journalists in sympathetic outlets.

    Richard would be shocked...shocked... to find that briefing is going on here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    The cynic tells me that SNP Govt looking for something different they can do that won't backfire. Previous stunts on business support and local govt finance have not gone well. I think lockdown could have worked but looks like Boris has done a reverse ferret and closed it down.
    It's killing the SNP in the polls.

    Stroke of genius by BJ to put the SNP's gas at a peep by..er..doing what they're doing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Scott_xP said:

    It seems a bit odd to criticise the government for the uninformed speculation of the press.

    You have to give the press credit though for all independently arriving at exactly the same uninformed speculative outcome...

    Miraculous.
    They always do. Haven't you noticed that over the years? That's probably because they copy each other's speculation.

    It would, of course, be totally unknown for the government (or its spokespeople) to slip a few messages to favoured journalists in sympathetic outlets.

    To think that this was the work of an unguided speculative press is one of the more naive responses I have seen during the crisis. Untypical of Richard.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    3 million more unemployed in the US this week, taking the total to 33 million since this started.

    :(
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Reading the government letter. Although it says in big letters that the App only works on the Island, logically there isn’t anything geographically specific about it. All they can do is ignore any triggers from people giving postcodes from other locations. The essence of it - recording which devices yours has been close to - will work anywhere, now, and those people clever enough to have given a false postcode will effectively already be in the trial.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
    Kind of is gaining 1pt here if anyone wanted a straw to clutch

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1258349359718109184?s=21
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited May 2020
    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1258400776038363137?s=20

    Is anyone doing similar graphs for Scotland & Wales?

    Any use? This also has the total NRS 'registry office' data further down, week on week. https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker
    Thank you. It does seem that Scotland deaths are plateauing not declining. But I presume this is "total" and not just "hospital" as in the England case above.


  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1258400776038363137?s=20

    Is anyone doing similar graphs for Scotland & Wales?

    Any use? This also has the total NRS 'registry office' data further down, week on week. https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker
    Just talking Hospital deaths is also misleading as we know other settings are not performing anywhere near as well
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It seems a bit odd to criticise the government for the uninformed speculation of the press.

    You have to give the press credit though for all independently arriving at exactly the same uninformed speculative outcome...

    Miraculous.
    They always do. Haven't you noticed that over the years? That's probably because they copy each other's speculation.

    It would, of course, be totally unknown for the government (or its spokespeople) to slip a few messages to favoured journalists in sympathetic outlets.

    To think that this was the work of an unguided speculative press is one of the more naive responses I have seen during the crisis. Untypical of Richard.
    Proof were it needed that it's exceedingly psychologically difficult to give up on being a PB Tory.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    The Rochdales, Southern Observers and Jonathans of this Parish could be in for a long four and a half years.

    Explaining why, Mr watching paint dry not being 20% ahead, as they predicted, is Corbyns fault.

    Its going to be fun watching the excuses.

    The Rochdales, Southern Observers and Jonathans of this Parish could be in for a long four and a half years.

    Explaining why, Mr watching paint dry not being 20% ahead, as they predicted, is Corbyns fault.

    Its going to be fun watching the excuses.

    Well we have now reached the 8% point of this Parliament were it to run its full term. More likely , we are closer to the 10% mark given that the most likely time for the next election is the first half of 2024. Under the terms of the FTPA , it would be 2nd May 2024 - which might be a good bet even if the FTPA is repealed. If so , we are already less than 4 years from Polling Day!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    edited May 2020
    BigRich said:

    Do we know when the Apple/google effort is going to role out its app?

    And will there be any reason why people wont/cant just down load that one when its available?

    I realise it would be much less effective if some people used one while other used a different one, but could you choos to have both on your phone?

    It's not an app in itself, it's a software framework (known as an API) that governments can use to design their own apps around. There won't be the option to use one or the other.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
    Kind of is gaining 1pt here if anyone wanted a straw to clutch

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1258349359718109184?s=21
    I thought it was "20% ahead" not behind!
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    isam said:
    You know, before this, I had no idea how prevalent both asthma and diabetes were. As for hypertension...

    12% of the population have asthma.
    An estimated 6% have undiagnosed diabetes
    30% of adult men have hypertension; 26% of adult women have it.
    (I think all three count as "underlying medical condition" for covid-19 stats)

    Obviously there will be some overlap (obesity probably causes all three, for example, so I've omitted that), but if they were all independent variables, that would mean that 42% of adults will be counted as "having a pre-existing medical condition"

    Add those with what we'd normally see as "serious conditions" and we're not far short of half the adult population.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Naturally.
    But the official line remains that we have insufficient evidence...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    Mine did mine last week and we did the whole scene. Coffee, magazine, background music. She asked me what I did and where I was going for my holidays. Bit of a giggle in these dark days of lockdown.
    Cosplay definitely getting more vanilla under lockdown.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752

    The cynic tells me that SNP Govt looking for something different they can do that won't backfire. Previous stunts on business support and local govt finance have not gone well. I think lockdown could have worked but looks like Boris has done a reverse ferret and closed it down.
    It's killing the SNP in the polls.

    Stroke of genius by BJ to put the SNP's gas at a peep by..er..doing what they're doing.
    Well, can't disagree in a way. People are flag-rallying and Nicola is doing a good presentational job. Taking ScotGov's views into account and delaying UK lockdown relaxation would still be sensible for Boris in keeping a lid on the constitutional question.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited May 2020
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    Mine did mine last week and we did the whole scene. Coffee, magazine, background music. She asked me what I did and where I was going for my holidays. Bit of a giggle in these dark days of lockdown.
    Genuine LOL, brilliant!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Guernsey now on 6 days without any new COVID cases and active cases down to 15. Lockdown was very similar to UK's except mandatory self-quarantine for all arrivals was introduced on March 19. Testing in a small jurisdiction clearly a lot easier to scale up - done the equivalent of 3.6million in the UK.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IanB2 said:

    Reading the government letter. Although it says in big letters that the App only works on the Island, logically there isn’t anything geographically specific about it. All they can do is ignore any triggers from people giving postcodes from other locations. The essence of it - recording which devices yours has been close to - will work anywhere, now, and those people clever enough to have given a false postcode will effectively already be in the trial.

    Does it not know where you are though?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    IanB2 said:

    Reading the government letter. Although it says in big letters that the App only works on the Island, logically there isn’t anything geographically specific about it. All they can do is ignore any triggers from people giving postcodes from other locations. The essence of it - recording which devices yours has been close to - will work anywhere, now, and those people clever enough to have given a false postcode will effectively already be in the trial.

    They only way they could geofence it would be if they use location services on the device, which they're trying to say they're not...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alex Massie in the Spectator making some pretty unanswerable points:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-and-cummings-words-are-coming-back-to-bite

    I'm sure that there are plenty on here who will still prefer simply to ignore them.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    The Rochdales, Southern Observers and Jonathans of this Parish could be in for a long four and a half years.

    Explaining why, Mr watching paint dry not being 20% ahead, as they predicted, is Corbyns fault.

    Its going to be fun watching the excuses.

    While it will be fun watching you explain why there's no difference between Mr watching paint dry and the Tories only to pivot at the election to saying how great Mr watching paint dry is and how much he needs to win.
    Well of course i will want Labour to win. I would think its very unlikely we will. I think the 1.8 on Con most seats at the next GE is decent value. 2.38 on Lab. most seats not so much.

    Also unlike at least 2 of the 3 named posters i will be staying in , voting for Lab. and actively working hard to get them elected, regardless of the leader. The only exception to that is if they support some illegal war.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    Presumably Scotland and Wales still want their subsidy cheques, even if they don't want to restart the economy that pays for them
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Giving this some "Mr Common Sense" (which is unlike me) I would say wearing a medical standard mask MUST to some extent protect others from your "germs" if you are sick with something infectious. However you can't recommend something without providing it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    edited May 2020
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Latest comment on the NHSX app Bluetooth issues (long thread, conclusion is we still don't know yet).
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1258327399391006720

    Surely that's the easiest thing to check? Just get a phone and see if it needs to be constantly reactivated.

    I wonder if they have some form of agreement with Apple bend the rules a little. Of course, they would strenuously deny such a thing...
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    edited May 2020
    Nigelb said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Naturally.
    But the official line remains that we have insufficient evidence...
    Whatever the rights and wrongs of masks, as someone who had done couple of systematic reviews, supervised ten or so and marked many others (masters dissertations), the search looks, well... really quite bad. Two databases only (ok, and google scholar, but limited to top 30 results), very limited search terms (seems like you have to match 'community' or 'household') and very few results screened. For most things you expect thousands - can be fewer, but low numbers like that should ring alarm bells about a possibly bad search. Also the synthesis is pretty much non-existent. If I was marking this (at masters level) I'm not sure it would even pass.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    He has a hell of a challenge though

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/labour-selected-hitler-defending-local-candidate-peterborough/
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Sandpit said:

    BigRich said:

    Do we know when the Apple/google effort is going to role out its app?

    And will there be any reason why people wont/cant just down load that one when its available?

    I realise it would be much less effective if some people used one while other used a different one, but could you choos to have both on your phone?

    It's not an app in itself, it's a software framework (known as an API) that governments can use to design their own apps around. There won't be the option to use one or the other.
    Thanks for that, and a pity :(

    I think Ireland are going the Apple/Google way, if so would it work if we all decided to download the Irish App? or is this not possible?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    eadric said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1258400776038363137?s=20

    Is anyone doing similar graphs for Scotland & Wales?

    Any use? This also has the total NRS 'registry office' data further down, week on week. https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker
    Thank you. It does seem that Scotland deaths are plateauing not declining. But I presume this is "total" and not just "hospital" as in the England case above.


    Scotland may have to stay locked down.... indefinitely. Tricky for the politicians to sell
    Scotlands hospital admissions for Covid have plateaued for a while as well
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    The cynic tells me that SNP Govt looking for something different they can do that won't backfire. Previous stunts on business support and local govt finance have not gone well. I think lockdown could have worked but looks like Boris has done a reverse ferret and closed it down.
    It's killing the SNP in the polls.

    Stroke of genius by BJ to put the SNP's gas at a peep by..er..doing what they're doing.
    Well, can't disagree in a way. People are flag-rallying and Nicola is doing a good presentational job. Taking ScotGov's views into account and delaying UK lockdown relaxation would still be sensible for Boris in keeping a lid on the constitutional question.
    Well, I agree with your not disagreeing (naturlich!), it's the sabre rattling from some of the more mediocre elements of your party I have a problem with. I know all politicians have multiple motivations and agendas but I really do think taking Nicola at face value on wanting to find the best solutions for Scotland re. Covid while working as constructively as possible with HMG would be a good starting point.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    Mine did mine last week and we did the whole scene. Coffee, magazine, background music. She asked me what I did and where I was going for my holidays. Bit of a giggle in these dark days of lockdown.
    Genuine LOL, brilliant!
    :smile: - the result was none too professional though. I'd have been complaining to the manager.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Presumably Scotland and Wales still want their subsidy cheques, even if they don't want to restart the economy that pays for them

    Scotland and Wales governments will always have their hands out!

    Pity that they can't use the money coming from England to sort their COVID situation out - virtually no testing and care home chaos in both countries - no wonder they don't want to come out of lockdown.

    Glad I live in England
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    Ha Ha
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
    Kind of is gaining 1pt here if anyone wanted a straw to clutch

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1258349359718109184?s=21
    Keir has completely reshaped the leadership ratings. He is yet to achieve the same with VI.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    Mine did mine last week and we did the whole scene. Coffee, magazine, background music. She asked me what I did and where I was going for my holidays. Bit of a giggle in these dark days of lockdown.
    Cosplay definitely getting more vanilla under lockdown.
    :smile: - it was exciting enough for me right now.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Giving this some "Mr Common Sense" (which is unlike me) I would say wearing a medical standard mask MUST to some extent protect others from your "germs" if you are sick with something infectious. However you can't recommend something without providing it.
    That is right. They must prevent at least one of stuff coming in and stuff coming out, or what's the point of them? The problem is partly that the world of medicine is so in thrall to the anecdote police that they won't accept common sense, or anything else other than a RCT, and for various reasons it's impossible to do a mask RCT.

  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    eadric said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1258400776038363137?s=20

    Is anyone doing similar graphs for Scotland & Wales?

    Any use? This also has the total NRS 'registry office' data further down, week on week. https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker
    Thank you. It does seem that Scotland deaths are plateauing not declining. But I presume this is "total" and not just "hospital" as in the England case above.


    Scotland may have to stay locked down.... indefinitely. Tricky for the politicians to sell
    Scotlands hospital admissions for Covid have plateaued for a while as well
    Not sure that's true. The number of people in ICU has fallen from over 200 to 86 as of today, and the number of people in hospital is starting to decline similar to the rest of the UK. The big negative is the care home situation which, while slowly getting better, is a problem, as across the rest of the country.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Latest comment on the NHSX app Bluetooth issues (long thread, conclusion is we still don't know yet).
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1258327399391006720

    Surely that's the easiest thing to check? Just get a phone and see if it needs to be constantly reactivated.

    I wonder if they have some form of agreement with Apple bend the rules a little. Of course, they would strenuously deny such a thing...
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329
    I don't think that proves it. Unless that is seen repeatedly, which I don't think has been claimed yet?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Giving this some "Mr Common Sense" (which is unlike me) I would say wearing a medical standard mask MUST to some extent protect others from your "germs" if you are sick with something infectious. However you can't recommend something without providing it.
    That is right. They must prevent at least one of stuff coming in and stuff coming out, or what's the point of them? The problem is partly that the world of medicine is so in thrall to the anecdote police that they won't accept common sense, or anything else other than a RCT, and for various reasons it's impossible to do a mask RCT.

    The question is the behavioural response: does it encourage riskier behaviour?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    The cynic tells me that SNP Govt looking for something different they can do that won't backfire. Previous stunts on business support and local govt finance have not gone well. I think lockdown could have worked but looks like Boris has done a reverse ferret and closed it down.
    It's killing the SNP in the polls.

    Stroke of genius by BJ to put the SNP's gas at a peep by..er..doing what they're doing.
    Well, can't disagree in a way. People are flag-rallying and Nicola is doing a good presentational job. Taking ScotGov's views into account and delaying UK lockdown relaxation would still be sensible for Boris in keeping a lid on the constitutional question.
    Well, I agree with your not disagreeing (naturlich!), it's the sabre rattling from some of the more mediocre elements of your party I have a problem with. I know all politicians have multiple motivations and agendas but I really do think taking Nicola at face value on wanting to find the best solutions for Scotland re. Covid while working as constructively as possible with HMG would be a good starting point.
    Good to see partisan gullibility doesn't just limit itself to the English Nationalists that support Boris Johnson!!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
    Kind of is gaining 1pt here if anyone wanted a straw to clutch

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1258349359718109184?s=21
    Keir has completely reshaped the leadership ratings. He is yet to achieve the same with VI.

    I suspect that the polls we are looking at currently are even less meaningful than those which appeared a few months after the elections of 1997 - 1987 - 1983 - and 1966. People are simply not tuned in to party politics at all.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    BigRich said:

    Sandpit said:

    BigRich said:

    Do we know when the Apple/google effort is going to role out its app?

    And will there be any reason why people wont/cant just down load that one when its available?

    I realise it would be much less effective if some people used one while other used a different one, but could you choos to have both on your phone?

    It's not an app in itself, it's a software framework (known as an API) that governments can use to design their own apps around. There won't be the option to use one or the other.
    Thanks for that, and a pity :(

    I think Ireland are going the Apple/Google way, if so would it work if we all decided to download the Irish App? or is this not possible?
    Hmm, that's an interesting question. I guess it could possibly work from a technical perspective, if everyone in England were to download the Irish app.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Nigelb said:
    Sounds like Hancock. Don't know which more worrying; Trump sounding like Hancock or Hancock sounding like Trump.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    edited May 2020
    Floater said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    He has a hell of a challenge though

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/labour-selected-hitler-defending-local-candidate-peterborough/
    If he is a holocaust denier he should be kicked out Its Guido though
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Latest comment on the NHSX app Bluetooth issues (long thread, conclusion is we still don't know yet).
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1258327399391006720

    Surely that's the easiest thing to check? Just get a phone and see if it needs to be constantly reactivated.

    I wonder if they have some form of agreement with Apple bend the rules a little. Of course, they would strenuously deny such a thing...
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329
    I don't think that proves it. Unless that is seen repeatedly, which I don't think has been claimed yet?
    It's been claimed to be coming up between every 30 minutes and a couple of hours. I've not been testing it myself though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited May 2020
    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Latest comment on the NHSX app Bluetooth issues (long thread, conclusion is we still don't know yet).
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1258327399391006720

    Surely that's the easiest thing to check? Just get a phone and see if it needs to be constantly reactivated.

    I wonder if they have some form of agreement with Apple bend the rules a little. Of course, they would strenuously deny such a thing...
    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257795741004771329
    I don't think that proves it. Unless that is seen repeatedly, which I don't think has been claimed yet?
    It's been claimed to be coming up between every 30 minutes and a couple of hours. I've not been testing it myself though.
    OK - I hadn't seen those claims, just the one screenshot which isn't that helpful on its own.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Giving this some "Mr Common Sense" (which is unlike me) I would say wearing a medical standard mask MUST to some extent protect others from your "germs" if you are sick with something infectious. However you can't recommend something without providing it.
    That is right. They must prevent at least one of stuff coming in and stuff coming out, or what's the point of them? The problem is partly that the world of medicine is so in thrall to the anecdote police that they won't accept common sense, or anything else other than a RCT, and for various reasons it's impossible to do a mask RCT.

    The question is the behavioural response: does it encourage riskier behaviour?
    Why wouldn't it do the opposite? I have a huge tendency to absentmindedness and therefore to forgetting that perfectly healthy looking strangers could infect me with a lethal disease. Popping masks on them would be an effective reminder.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    .
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    Mine did mine last week and we did the whole scene. Coffee, magazine, background music. She asked me what I did and where I was going for my holidays. Bit of a giggle in these dark days of lockdown.
    Cosplay definitely getting more vanilla under lockdown.
    :smile: - it was exciting enough for me right now.
    If you'd put it off for a couple of days, it could have given you something for the weekend...
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    ABZ said:

    eadric said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1258400776038363137?s=20

    Is anyone doing similar graphs for Scotland & Wales?

    Any use? This also has the total NRS 'registry office' data further down, week on week. https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker
    Thank you. It does seem that Scotland deaths are plateauing not declining. But I presume this is "total" and not just "hospital" as in the England case above.


    Scotland may have to stay locked down.... indefinitely. Tricky for the politicians to sell
    Scotlands hospital admissions for Covid have plateaued for a while as well
    Not sure that's true. The number of people in ICU has fallen from over 200 to 86 as of today, and the number of people in hospital is starting to decline similar to the rest of the UK. The big negative is the care home situation which, while slowly getting better, is a problem, as across the rest of the country.
    I was basing it on the nightly Government slides, obviously they don't give numbers just lines. I did notice the ICU line had fallen considerably.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Also unlike at least 2 of the 3 named posters i will be staying in , voting for Lab. and actively working hard to get them elected, regardless of the leader. The only exception to that is if they support some illegal war.

    And that is where I start howling with laughter. Lets set aside your views on the legality of the war, in 2005 we had a choice. Between a pro-war Labour government who brought in Sure Start, or a pro-war Tory government literally advertising "are you thinking what we're thinking" racism as a slogan.

    For all of your holier than thou crap you were quite happy to have a Tory government to shat on the people you claim to speak for "because Iraq".

    Which is why, when presented with both the choice of sanctimonious hysterics and the full facts, Labour voters in their millions said "fuck this" and voted Tory.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Naturally.
    But the official line remains that we have insufficient evidence...
    Whatever the rights and wrongs of masks, as someone who had done couple of systematic reviews, supervised ten or so and marked many others (masters dissertations), the search looks, well... really quite bad. Two databases only (ok, and google scholar, but limited to top 30 results), very limited search terms (seems like you have to match 'community' or 'household') and very few results screened. For most things you expect thousands - can be fewer, but low numbers like that should ring alarm bells about a possibly bad search. Also the synthesis is pretty much non-existent. If I was marking this (at masters level) I'm not sure it would even pass.
    Rule of thumb for me is you probably want to at least be title or abstract screening a couple of thousand results, which would suggest the search strategy is awful. Just checked the search strategy. It's awful.

    Genuinely can't see that this would pass a Masters. As you say there's essentially no attempt at synthesis. But it would fail anyway because it lacks any assessment of study quality, not even basic checklist stuff.

    Also the way they've handled mathematical modelling studies is odd. It's pretty common simply to exclude them, but sensible to check how they've populated the model - if the effect of masks wasn't assigned arbitrarily, there's a chance this could lead you on to other studies that have generated relevant evidence. Arguably you could use a modelling study to estimate the effectiveness of masks from observed data (particularly if you had regional data on proportion of people who wear masks and you do some sort of Bayesian synthesis thingy to find a posterior estimate of effectiveness) so perhaps in this case a blanket "no modelling studies" wouldn't be appropriate, but the review suggests (though doesn't make clear - another failing point, as it can't even report the studies adequately!) the modellers just made arbitrary effectiveness numbers up at the individual level and wanted to see the impact at the population level.

    Anyhow a Masters fail wouldn't be too bad considering the second author is described as "Student Grade 11 IB , The Shri Ram School" (a posho Indian boarding school)...
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    "Shear" terror?
    Hair razing experience.

    :-)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Giving this some "Mr Common Sense" (which is unlike me) I would say wearing a medical standard mask MUST to some extent protect others from your "germs" if you are sick with something infectious. However you can't recommend something without providing it.
    That is right. They must prevent at least one of stuff coming in and stuff coming out, or what's the point of them? The problem is partly that the world of medicine is so in thrall to the anecdote police that they won't accept common sense, or anything else other than a RCT, and for various reasons it's impossible to do a mask RCT.

    The question is the behavioural response: does it encourage riskier behaviour?
    We would have to ask our resident driving license non-holder but certainly when I was on my bike there was a world of difference in my riding between a) when I was in a suit and brogues going to a meeting; and b) when I was fully robocopped up, knee sliders an' all.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2020

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    If they keep it up, we'll just have to call another snap election and take both Miliband Minor and Bootle at the same time :wink:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    The use of facemasks by the general population to prevent transmission of Covid 19 infection: A systematic review.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
    ...This systematic review aims to summarize the available evidence regarding the role of face mask in community settings in slowing the spread of respiratory viruses such as SARS- CoV-2. Methods The preferred reporting items for systematic reviews and meta-analyses (PRISMA) guidelines were used for this review. A literature search using PUBMED, Google Scholar, and Cochrane database were performed using Medical subject heading (MeSH) words from the year 2000-2020. The articles focused on the use of masks and N95 respirators in healthcare workers were excluded. Results A total of 305 records were identified, out of which 14 articles were included in the review based upon quality and eligibility criteria. All the articles mentioned about the role of face masks in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses like influenza, SARS, and SARS-CoV-2, in the community or experimental setting. Studies also suggested that early initiation of face mask usage was more effective. Masks were also reported to be more effective in viruses that transmit easily from asymptomatic individuals, as is now known in SARS-CoV-2. Conclusion Theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence suggested that usage of face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.

    Of course masks work. It's the simplest, easiest way of slowing a pandemic.

    We learned this painfully during Spanish flu, when masks eventually became mandatory across the West. It is quite incredible that we are having to learn it all over again, very very slowly.
    Giving this some "Mr Common Sense" (which is unlike me) I would say wearing a medical standard mask MUST to some extent protect others from your "germs" if you are sick with something infectious. However you can't recommend something without providing it.
    That is right. They must prevent at least one of stuff coming in and stuff coming out, or what's the point of them? The problem is partly that the world of medicine is so in thrall to the anecdote police that they won't accept common sense, or anything else other than a RCT, and for various reasons it's impossible to do a mask RCT.

    The question is the behavioural response: does it encourage riskier behaviour?
    Why wouldn't it do the opposite? I have a huge tendency to absentmindedness and therefore to forgetting that perfectly healthy looking strangers could infect me with a lethal disease. Popping masks on them would be an effective reminder.
    People might think that the very fact of having one on obviated the need to be careful/not touch one's face/wash one's hands regularly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    I'll accept that. It's just that their best..........
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Nigelb said:

    .

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:
    1. Downing Street pants being shat over todays newspaper front pages
    2. Glad to see that Bozza has grown a lockdown mad haircut like so many people have
    My wife cut my hair today with some clippers she uses on the dog. It was terrifying.
    Mine did mine last week and we did the whole scene. Coffee, magazine, background music. She asked me what I did and where I was going for my holidays. Bit of a giggle in these dark days of lockdown.
    Cosplay definitely getting more vanilla under lockdown.
    :smile: - it was exciting enough for me right now.
    If you'd put it off for a couple of days, it could have given you something for the weekend...
    lol - next time. Which I bet there will be. Barbers probably towards the back of the queue.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    I'll accept that. It's just that their best..........
    But can you imagine if it had been Corbyn, Abbott and people like that running it?!

    :anguished:
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Floater said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    He has a hell of a challenge though

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/labour-selected-hitler-defending-local-candidate-peterborough/
    Corbyn's Labour Party was infested with lunatics. Absolute nutters not only standing as candidates in Peterborough but someone has vetted him as kosher and then members have voted for him. My local BLP is posting Marxist newspaper articles on Facebook politics groups. London Young Labour extolling the virtue of IRA murderers.

    They all have to go. I fought them. They broke me. I quit and said "you've won" as I couldn't face myself in the mirror any more, and having resolved that Corbyn must be stopped I took a step too far, joined the OAP retirement club and did my best to talk myself into it.

    As my now ex-MP has put to the local dissenters objecting to my return, if they can't accept back a 25 year veteran member how do they hope to win back the decades-long Labour voters who voted Tory in December? I know that BJO doesn't care about winning elections, but some of us do.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    The government can for now maintain one of the greatest and cruelest deceptions ever perpetrated by any UK government on the people of Britain - that lockdown is a consequence free policy.

    That we have time and money to go on and on until the virus is 'beaten' (whatever beaten looks like).

    Headlines like a 14% contraction in the UK economy, greatest recession in 300 years are meaningless to the millions on furlough who think they are going to walk back into jobs. Or those in the public sector that think they can never be culled

    Economic meltdown? dramatic fall in living standards?

    yeh whatever

    The fact is that many of these people are long term redundant, they just don;t know it yet.

    When Rishi turns off the taps, as he must one day, well...

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Floater said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    He has a hell of a challenge though

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/labour-selected-hitler-defending-local-candidate-peterborough/
    Corbyn's Labour Party was infested with lunatics. Absolute nutters not only standing as candidates in Peterborough but someone has vetted him as kosher and then members have voted for him. My local BLP is posting Marxist newspaper articles on Facebook politics groups. London Young Labour extolling the virtue of IRA murderers.

    They all have to go. I fought them. They broke me. I quit and said "you've won" as I couldn't face myself in the mirror any more, and having resolved that Corbyn must be stopped I took a step too far, joined the OAP retirement club and did my best to talk myself into it.

    As my now ex-MP has put to the local dissenters objecting to my return, if they can't accept back a 25 year veteran member how do they hope to win back the decades-long Labour voters who voted Tory in December? I know that BJO doesn't care about winning elections, but some of us do.
    BJO and HYUFD are the same. Partisan purists who put purity before winning and progress.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    edited May 2020



    For all of your holier than thou crap you were quite happy to have a Tory government to shat on the people you claim to speak for "because Iraq".

    Meanwhile you did exactly the same 5 months ago

    For all of your holier than thou crap you were quite happy to have a Tory government to shat on the people you claim to speak for and you even joined another party rather than have a Labour PM

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    The government can for now maintain one of the greatest and cruelest deceptions ever perpetrated by any UK government on the people of Britain - that lockdown is a consequence free policy.

    That we have time and money to go on and on until the virus is 'beaten' (whatever beaten looks like).

    Headlines like a 14% contraction in the UK economy, greatest recession in 300 years are meaningless to the millions on furlough who think they are going to walk back into jobs. Or those in the public sector that think they can never be culled

    Economic meltdown? dramatic fall in living standards?

    yeh whatever

    The fact is that many of these people are long term redundant, they just don;t know it yet.

    When Rishi turns off the taps, as he must one day, well...

    What was the viable alternative?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    The government can for now maintain one of the greatest and cruelest deceptions ever perpetrated by any UK government on the people of Britain - that lockdown is a consequence free policy.

    That we have time and money to go on and on until the virus is 'beaten' (whatever beaten looks like).

    Headlines like a 14% contraction in the UK economy, greatest recession in 300 years are meaningless to the millions on furlough who think they are going to walk back into jobs. Or those in the public sector that think they can never be culled

    Economic meltdown? dramatic fall in living standards?

    yeh whatever

    The fact is that many of these people are long term redundant, they just don;t know it yet.

    When Rishi turns off the taps, as he must one day, well...

    What was the viable alternative?
    The Swedish approach.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
    Kind of is gaining 1pt here if anyone wanted a straw to clutch

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1258349359718109184?s=21
    Keir has completely reshaped the leadership ratings. He is yet to achieve the same with VI.

    I wouldn’t expect major change until the pandemic fades considerably. Perhaps by (virtual?) Party conference season.

    I am not particularly a SK fan, but he did quite well at PMQs the other day. He is rather dull, but I think he can balance that if he doesn't try to hog the limelight too much, and encourages a more active front bench team. The team approach vs Johnson's yes men could play well.

    We are approaching the 75th Anniversary of a rather dull, but highly competent lawyer unseating a charismatic, but erratic journalist. Wouldn't it be ironic if Johnson's mock Churchillism skipped straight to ignominious exit?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Floater said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    He has a hell of a challenge though

    https://order-order.com/2020/05/07/labour-selected-hitler-defending-local-candidate-peterborough/
    Corbyn's Labour Party was infested with lunatics. Absolute nutters not only standing as candidates in Peterborough but someone has vetted him as kosher and then members have voted for him. My local BLP is posting Marxist newspaper articles on Facebook politics groups. London Young Labour extolling the virtue of IRA murderers.

    They all have to go. I fought them. They broke me. I quit and said "you've won" as I couldn't face myself in the mirror any more, and having resolved that Corbyn must be stopped I took a step too far, joined the OAP retirement club and did my best to talk myself into it.

    As my now ex-MP has put to the local dissenters objecting to my return, if they can't accept back a 25 year veteran member how do they hope to win back the decades-long Labour voters who voted Tory in December? I know that BJO doesn't care about winning elections, but some of us do.
    If your CLP or BLP is continuing to act in a highly factional manner, I suggest that you escalate matters via a complaint through the NW Regional Office. You might find that there's more support for tackling this than you imagine, and they do have some significant powers.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    BigRich said:

    Do we know when the Apple/google effort is going to role out its app?

    And will there be any reason why people wont/cant just down load that one when its available?

    Apple/Google have basically said that only one app for each nation (or each state for the US), from a suitable body, will be allowed. So if the NHS doesn't create such an app it won't be available here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    An early teething problem with the IOW NHS App is that it requires at least IOS version 11 or Android version 8. There appear to be older phones in circulation that can’t install it.

    Who could have foreseen such a thing?

    Answer: anyone who knows that the IoW is the most poverty-stricken bit of the English countryside bar parts of Cornwall, where splashing out on the latest Samsung or iphone is not a priority. Brilliant place to test the app.
    I have mentioned this before on here but a friend of mine, noted economist, was visiting somewhere relatively built up but out of the way in England and went into a newsagent to buy a Mars Bar, to be told that they didn't stock them because no one could afford them round that way.
    All bought up by the Fish and Chip shop?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Ave_it said:

    So despite all.the filthy comments on here about Boris and the Govt... voting intention is unchanged. Its as well to remember that such comments are not the views of the majority.. not even all Labour voters...

    The loony left (remember them) are always the most vocal! Most people know Boris and his team are doing their best...
    The government can for now maintain one of the greatest and cruelest deceptions ever perpetrated by any UK government on the people of Britain - that lockdown is a consequence free policy.

    That we have time and money to go on and on until the virus is 'beaten' (whatever beaten looks like).

    Headlines like a 14% contraction in the UK economy, greatest recession in 300 years are meaningless to the millions on furlough who think they are going to walk back into jobs. Or those in the public sector that think they can never be culled

    Economic meltdown? dramatic fall in living standards?

    yeh whatever

    The fact is that many of these people are long term redundant, they just don;t know it yet.

    When Rishi turns off the taps, as he must one day, well...

    What was the viable alternative?
    If that's going to be the position of Boris and his shills when the sh8t hits the fan, well, I reckon he might not last the year.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    Starmer really does have to play the long game here. The case is that the government is not up to the job that fate has asked it to do - both during the crisis and its aftermath. We are at the very start of the argument and he has not started badly. Right now, though, most people (quite rightly) support the lockdown and the the financial aid the government has come up with. Starmer and the Labour party do as well (quite rightly). This is about years, not weeks or months.
    The latest poll had both Labour and the Govt falling though

    MoE

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast please?

    Who forecast that?

    The damage done to Labour's standing over the last few years has been immense. It's going to take years to mend. At least we now have a leader who may be able to go some way to doing it. You can see that in his personal ratings.
    But in early 2019 Labour was ahead!
    Yes, people do not give Johnson enough credit. The ghastly guy pulled off an utter triumph, electorally, and he has genuine appeal to lots of people. I think it's because the host of this site, plus many of the more prolific and influential participants, have a very dim view of both him AND Corbyn - thus the preferred narrative is that Johnson is crap but won a landslide because Corbyn was twice as crap. This doesn't ring true to me. It was many things, clearly, but what it mainly was was "Boris" and his all conquering message, Get Brexit Done, which played well to both Leavers and the large number of Remainers who nevertheless were sick and tired of "it" and wanted "it" done.
    Boris's greatest strength as a politician is the dogged determination that his opponents apply to underestimating him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited May 2020
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    Reading the government letter. Although it says in big letters that the App only works on the Island, logically there isn’t anything geographically specific about it. All they can do is ignore any triggers from people giving postcodes from other locations. The essence of it - recording which devices yours has been close to - will work anywhere, now, and those people clever enough to have given a false postcode will effectively already be in the trial.

    Does it not know where you are though?
    It specifically says that “this app does not use GPS or record locations”.

    Thinking it through, although it says that within four hours of reporting symptoms, the app will notify all your contacts, implying it is somehow automatic, there must surely be a human intervention at that point.? Otherwise assorted paranoid hypochondriacs, larking kids, drunks and worried wells could trigger a whole chain of notifications, wasting time and worrying people unnecessarily with no possibility of any comeback, since who is to say after the event that you didn’t actually have a temperature and a cough?

    I would expect someone to phone you up and run through some screening questions to make sure your response is genuine and to try and screen out the time wasters. At that point they could check verbally whether you live on the island or not, and tell those calling from north island to go see their doctor, phone 111 or whatever.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902



    For all of your holier than thou crap you were quite happy to have a Tory government to shat on the people you claim to speak for "because Iraq".

    Meanwhile you did exactly the same 5 months ago

    For all of your holier than thou crap you were quite happy to have a Tory government to shat on the people you claim to speak for and you even joined another party rather than have a Labour PM

    When will we be 20% ahead as forecast?
    *grin* do keep up. I directly ran a local LD campaign that explicitly and exclusively targeted Tory voters. because its not just about how many votes you get, its how many votes the other lot get. Diverting Tory votes into a LD dead-end reduced their total, and we more than doubled our vote. We broke ground on the vote swapping campaign where we actively told traditional LibDem voters to vote Labour in exchange for the reverse down south.

    Nationally the LDs were working their arses off to win seats off the Tories, pity about the Momentum stormtroopers tipped into seats like Finchley to stop the defector Jew from taking a Tory seat.

    If you read off the site at the time I did not want ANY majority government. A complete stalemate to stop the evils of both Johnson and Corbyn would have been perfect.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    We've had two re-elections because two substitute Tory leaders haven't liked the result of the previous one. But nobody was allowed to vote again on the other thing because they didn't like the result. Yay democracy!

    Anyway, we all debated the first Starmer vs Johnson PMQs yesterday. Forensic takedown vs populist bluster.

    Politically I'd say the triumph of Starmer was to force Johnson to make it up on the spot. "200k tests a day" and "big announcement Sunday" will not age well...

    People were capable of voting again on the other thing. Twice.

    If people cared about the other thing in the other way they could have voted to give the yellow peril seats in 2017 or the reds and yellows in 2019. As it happens they voted quite clearly in 2019 to Get Brexit Done.
    Total bollox. It was a keep Corbyn out election. The electorate decided that the blue twat was slightly less dangerous than the red twat.
    It was a whatever people wanted to vote for election. They literally voted for the party whose slogan was Get Brexit Done while the party that had set it's stall on Fuck Brexit lost seats including their leader.
    And its hardly like Forensic Keir is gaining ground.

    Quite the opposite.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    5h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 50% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-2)
    LDEM: 7% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 06 May
    Kind of is gaining 1pt here if anyone wanted a straw to clutch

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1258349359718109184?s=21
    Keir has completely reshaped the leadership ratings. He is yet to achieve the same with VI.

    I wouldn’t expect major change until the pandemic fades considerably. Perhaps by (virtual?) Party conference season.

    I am not particularly a SK fan, but he did quite well at PMQs the other day. He is rather dull, but I think he can balance that if he doesn't try to hog the limelight too much, and encourages a more active front bench team. The team approach vs Johnson's yes men could play well.

    We are approaching the 75th Anniversary of a rather dull, but highly competent lawyer unseating a charismatic, but erratic journalist. Wouldn't it be ironic if Johnson's mock Churchillism skipped straight to ignominious exit?
    I think there may be a few million people who could vote for him but not his party until he overtly disowns its recent past and recreates it - in Blair fashion.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Politically, it would be a very strong argument in favour of Unionism if this happened.
This discussion has been closed.