The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
Doesn't China own over $1tn in US treasury bills (or some equally stupid amount as they need to keep the Yuan's value down)?
I'm trying to think of a tax idea that I would support now, in the changed circumstances, but wouldn't have supported in the time before, and I'm struggling.
Similarly I can't think of an item of government spending that I'd now be prepared to do without that I wound previously have defended.
This changing your mind lark is awfully hard.
Very nice thought experiment in response to Cyclefree's header. Yes, I struggle too. I can think of quite a few things that I would reluctantly accept that I'd have opposed before, though. Cuts to culture, media and sport, for instance - if they are really popular they will survive, and if they aren't maybe we can't afford to subsidise them. I get the Reithian idea that as a society we enrich ourselves and future generations by having a rich cultural choice - but perhaps that's not a first priority?
And perhaps we could make a couple of billion from a windfall tax on football.
The Arts, Music and Sport are some of the areas that are going to take the biggest hit this year. A crowd is rather intrinsic to all of these. Many football clubs (particularly below the PL) are at risk of going bust, so too music venues and theatres. It is likely that they will have big audiences again in a year though. They are not one of the industries subject to longterm structural change.
Indeed, However the Premier League has a player payroll alone of approx £1.5 billion a year.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
Indeed, as all the creditors will largely themselves be in debt that is not impossible
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
Policy is represented by a matrix with "works well" on one axis and "sounds good" on the other axis. There's nothing in the "works well and sounds good" quadrant because if there was the last guy would have done it, and nobody's interested in "works badly and sounds bad". So government is normally a process of dutifully trying to squeeze through some "works well but sounds bad" policies, while implementing a minimum of the "works badly but sounds good" policies that you promised to get power.
However, the current PM doesn't like doing unpopular things and at least the time being the bond markets seem happy to lend governments money for free, so although the normal process of government will continue in less important departments, none of CycleFree's excellent suggestions will be implemented and Boris will be all Borrow Borrow Borrow and Money Printer Go Brrr.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
The whole sorry saga has made me reflect on the meaning of money anyway. Before anyone lampoons this I did at least study economics at A level.
What's it all about? The bits of paper or bank statements reflect what, exactly? Manufactured goods? Services? One person picks fruit in a field and indirectly someone pushing paper clips around a desk pays her, who in turn is paid by someone else placing some sort of value on the paper clip work they do. That person is paid by other people including investors in paper clips etc. etc.
It's all meaningless really.
It really isn't. It's a belief system. So long as people think their money will be worth something substantial tomorrow, then things are broadly okay. If that stops, then it really is Armageddon.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
It was the failure to think the unthinkable (Closing off every non freight route in), implementing strict quarantine and hermetically sealing the UK off (We're an island so it could have been done) that's got us into this present mess. The Gov't should be considering every option now.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
The whole sorry saga has made me reflect on the meaning of money anyway. Before anyone lampoons this I did at least study economics at A level.
What's it all about? The bits of paper or bank statements reflect what, exactly? Manufactured goods? Services? One person picks fruit in a field and indirectly someone pushing paper clips around a desk pays her, who in turn is paid by someone else placing some sort of value on the paper clip work they do. That person is paid by other people including investors in paper clips etc. etc.
It's all meaningless really.
Send me all your money then, I will send you a shedload of paperclips, we will see how smart you are in a couple of days or so. A bit more studying was required methinks.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
Difficult choices indeed but let's wait and see if they are necessary. Ignore the debt and deficit hawks for the moment. They are usually wrong. Rishi Sunak should not repeat George Osborne's blunder in choking off the recovery inherited from Labour. The challenge will be to resume normal economic activity and growth, not to depress the economy further still.
whatever it takes.
I totally agree.
I wouldn't put it past Boris to run a deficit. He's no Keith Joseph.
Boris said it in as many words yesterday. He is opposed to austerity.
The key date is the 3rd of November. If Biden wins, the GOP that voted for the budget-destroying Trump tax cuts (and before that the Bush tax cuts and the Reagan tax cuts) will flip to being deficit hawks for as long as the other side occupies the White House. Many of our pundits and even politicians take their cues from Washington. If Biden wins, the press may turn on Boris.
If Biden wins with the Democrats in control of Congress the US will see a spending splurge not seen since the days of LBJ and FDR, in which case Boris' spending plans will look modest in comparison
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
My guess would be a collapse of private pension schemes - but there are others on here who I'm sure will put me right!
I'm 100% in equities.
So am I, fairly well spread around the world, and not much retail.
Money printing of whatever form is going to be the rule rather than the exception across the world. That tends to push down the value of cash and income, and increase the value of capital assets.
Not a good day for equities again today, though many markets are closed for International Labour Day. Nice to have the Capitalists mark Anarchist protests.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
Good morning all. No dancing round the maypole this MayDay unless we can keep 2m apart.
On topic; do public schools get Gift Aid, as other, perhaps more legitimate, charities do?
Not really on topic. Raise tax on independent schools by all means. But be aware that any significant move will shut a significant number of them down, so is highly unlikely to be a net gain for the exchequer over the next five years at least.
There are, surely, 'consequences' of all Ms Cyclefree's thoughts? And if a significant number of independent schools close, might there be more discussion of standards in State schools? Over-stating, if your and your family's only experience of school is Eton what is your sub-conscious view of Slough Comp? And a similar thought; it's always seemed to me, and this is, I suggest, borne out by current events, that too many opinion formers have little or no experience of 'care of the elderly' especially Care Homes.
If you send your children to Eton or indeed any private school even if you sent them to a state school you would not even consider a bog standard Slough comp, you would send them to an outstanding state comprehensive or academy in a wealthy catchment area or to a grammar school
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
The whole sorry saga has made me reflect on the meaning of money anyway. Before anyone lampoons this I did at least study economics at A level.
What's it all about? The bits of paper or bank statements reflect what, exactly? Manufactured goods? Services? One person picks fruit in a field and indirectly someone pushing paper clips around a desk pays her, who in turn is paid by someone else placing some sort of value on the paper clip work they do. That person is paid by other people including investors in paper clips etc. etc.
It's all meaningless really.
It really isn't. It's a belief system. So long as people think their money will be worth something substantial tomorrow, then things are broadly okay. If that stops, then it really is Armageddon.
That's exactly right. It is a belief system.
Coronavirus is causing a lot of people to recalibrate. Whether that's sufficient to alter capitalism I doubt, but I remain hopeful.
We would do well to turn more local, in our supply and demand. This is especially true of food.
Talking of that, John Humphrys wrote a really good book which remains remarkably prescient: The Great Food Gamble. Highly recommend it.
The argument is that Gift Aid directs Government expenditure in the direction of the charities that receive the money.
And as I don't like the charities getting the money it's wrong and that expenditure should be on things I do like.
@algakirk@eek Thanks for the explanations, I don't understand why people just stick up links to fee sites assuming people will have access. Sadly a lot of these charities are scams for hoorays to pay themselves huge salaries and ponce about, and it is the small decent ones that will suffer.
I'm not going to disagree but that is a job for legislation and the charity commission, it's not a job of the Government itself. It's wise to keep the income and expenditure system separate.
But if we are going that way when charities use commercial firms to raise money (be it chuggers or TV adverts) it should be 100% clear how much money was spent, i.e. how much the chugger / firm gets paid per signature and how much the TV campaign cost.
My personal viewpoint is that no charity that uses either deserves a penny of my money and I will and have intentionally avoid giving them another penny.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
what a nice clear explanation - so many people don't seem to realise just how much UK government debt is owed to itself via the magic of modern central banking - the whole debt problem will sort itself out over an incredibly long period of time, like forever as the BoE can just sit on those gilts and nominally await repayment. Once the QE genie was unleashed it changed debt dynamics in profound ways for countries that can do it.
Since I think the problem will just be pushed to another day as long as humanly possible my only question is whether planned for splurging will bu curtailed so it can go on new stuff, or whether since we're all screwed economically anyway they'll figure might as well add the cost of all that planned splurging on top of any virus response.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
what a nice clear explanation - so many people don't seem to realise just how much UK government debt is owed to itself via the magic of modern central banking - the whole debt problem will sort itself out over an incredibly long period of time, like forever as the BoE can just sit on those gilts and nominally await repayment. Once the QE genie was unleashed it changed debt dynamics in profound ways for countries that can do it.
It's harder to do that when you don't control the currency - which is why Italy is such a mess at the moment.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
When you borrow large amounts of money from yourself at 0% interest rates two questions arise: What could possibly go wrong? and Why is this not OK if a Labour government does it?
If a thing sounds like a perpetual motion machine to the uneducated mind is it possible that in fact it is?
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
what a nice clear explanation - so many people don't seem to realise just how much UK government debt is owed to itself via the magic of modern central banking - the whole debt problem will sort itself out over an incredibly long period of time, like forever as the BoE can just sit on those gilts and nominally await repayment. Once the QE genie was unleashed it changed debt dynamics in profound ways for countries that can do it.
It's harder to do that when you don't control the currency - which is why Italy is such a mess at the moment.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
China owns a staggering amount of US debt
Yes. I dont think that they will be buying much this year, but what effect does a Chinese bond strike have? Currently China owns USD 3.2 trillion in overseas debt, including USD 1.1 trillion of US debt, but that makes up only 5% of the US national debt, most of which is owned by Americans directly or indirectly.
Policy is represented by a matrix with "works well" on one axis and "sounds good" on the other axis. There's nothing in the "works well and sounds good" quadrant because if there was the last guy would have done it, and nobody's interested in "works badly and sounds bad". So government is normally a process of dutifully trying to squeeze through some "works well but sounds bad" policies, while implementing a minimum of the "works badly but sounds good" policies that you promised to get power.
However, the current PM doesn't like doing unpopular things and at least the time being the bond markets seem happy to lend governments money for free, so although the normal process of government will continue in less important departments, none of CycleFree's excellent suggestions will be implemented and Boris will be all Borrow Borrow Borrow and Money Printer Go Brrr.
Excellent point and yes, fire up the printers.
I think the govt gets a huge free pass on the debt level, which as @MaxPB points out, will be monetised.
But we British public are a fickle lot and we will closely scrutinise those excess mortality rates. Boris told us to wait for them and so we will. For his sake (and obvs for the people who have died and were seriously ill) he will hope it turns out that our handling was within an SD of the average, excess mortality-wise.
Otherwise the public might not be so happy and, if there is economic disturbance that the govt can't print itself out of (ie a demand slump), then the public might look for a dog to kick.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
When you borrow large amounts of money from yourself at 0% interest rates two questions arise: What could possibly go wrong? and Why is this not OK if a Labour government does it?
If a thing sounds like a perpetual motion machine to the uneducated mind is it possible that in fact it is?
Essentially it's a massive bluff. The government is betting that the holders of the £1.2tn don't want their gilts to be devalued to nothing. I think markets just about buy the in extremis explanation and the inflation one.
What would be an issue is uncontrolled printing to fund the day to day business of government, which is what Jez was talking about. At that point the money supply overwhelms everything else and the currency craters.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
The things that define the wealth of nations are infrastructure, climate, natural resources, education, skills, work ethic, labour force, public health and community cohesion. Money, debt etc has no inherent value.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
He'd be wrong because money printing helps holders of assets. The poor, being poor, hold few assets. Tory donors and more generally the wealthy will do very will out of QE.
Switching the tv on this morning and watching Sky's report from Sao Paulo is distressing and horrific and for once I congratulate Sky for bringing this news story to us.
The authorities are using diggers to create thousands upon thousands of open graves for their covid victims and if any of us want reminding of what happens when the virus overwhelmes a health systems and goes out of control, this is it
Words are hard to find to see the pain and misery of the grieving and to weep with them.
What has humanity done to allow a virus like this to ravage the world.
It is the animals revenge and we all need to turn our minds to respecting and valuing the worlds creatures and their environment and realising that there is far more to life than ' turning a dollar'
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
What has humanity done to allow a virus like this to ravage the world.
It is the animals revenge and we all need to turn our minds to respecting and valuing the worlds creatures and their environment and realising that there is far more to life than ' turning a dollar'
I imagine that we get rising unemployment and higher prices soon. Next year a vaccine (probably). Not everyone gets the vaccine for a while and restrictions remain. Many people do not return to work. The government cuts job retention schemes as the economy is starting to reopen, and poverty rockets by the end of 2021. I am not sure if Boris is still Prime Minister by this stage, as he ruled out austerity yesterday. Is this credible?
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
When you borrow large amounts of money from yourself at 0% interest rates two questions arise: What could possibly go wrong? and Why is this not OK if a Labour government does it?
If a thing sounds like a perpetual motion machine to the uneducated mind is it possible that in fact it is?
There's a difference between doing it during a crisis in extremis and only as long as conditions remain favourable with low inflation - and doing it on a daily basis for day to day expenditure.
That's like saying if it's ok to get a mortgage to pay for a home then why not borrow for that foreign holiday that you can't afford?
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
When you borrow large amounts of money from yourself at 0% interest rates two questions arise: What could possibly go wrong? and Why is this not OK if a Labour government does it?
If a thing sounds like a perpetual motion machine to the uneducated mind is it possible that in fact it is?
At some point it has got to give. Even Krugman, that anti-austerityite extraordinaire (who I have a lot of time for), accepts that. You can't keep on printing as the bond markets will expect inflation and hence mark you down. But for the moment, inflation is low and doesn't seem like ticking up any time soon (people will save for a potential second lockdown, for example).
As for why Labour wrong Tory right, so to speak? Well by every estimation and opinion, Lab was spending far too much in those proverbial good times, with fiscal receipts at record levels. That doesn't mean that austerity was the only option in 2010 (again, Krugman is good on this), but something had to be done to address the size of govt.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
The last I heard was that the Debt Management Office was selling a record amount of government debt on the open market. Is that not actually happening?
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
You should start your own UKIP lite because you are not a compassionate fair minded conservative, just a Trump tribute act
What has humanity done to allow a virus like this to ravage the world.
It is the animals revenge and we all need to turn our minds to respecting and valuing the worlds creatures and their environment and realising that there is far more to life than ' turning a dollar'
I cannot say I get much moved when people talk about animals revenge or the planet etc striking back. I think its unhelpful anthropomorphism and ascribing meaning to meaningless.
Thst might well lead to good positive actions from good motivations, valuing the worlds creatures is good, but 'nature strikes back' style talk I think is unnecessary and overwrought, in a situation which is wrought enough.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
So you don't think there will be a need for those foreign workers such as are being bussed in right now to help on farms?
You must be terribly sad at Priti's plans and the likely end of free movement, given you were such a fan of the EU that you actually voted to remain. Are you the only Remainer in the village in Epping? I bet you have to keep that one quiet!
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
The last I heard was that the Debt Management Office was selling a record amount of government debt on the open market. Is that not actually happening?
Yes and no. The bank buys from the secondary markets. They purchase £20bn from pension funds on the secondary markets so the pension funds need to buy £20bn at the auctions to replace their holdings. Is essentially how it works. Additionally the bank has begun using the buyer of last resort fund to avoid the embarrassment of a failed auction, but I don't think it's been used very much.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
The last I heard was that the Debt Management Office was selling a record amount of government debt on the open market. Is that not actually happening?
It is. The government doesn't sell directly to the Bank of England.
What's not as often reported is how much the Bank of England is buying back from the open market.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so Brexit voters will get what they want with Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
And how will we be doing that. This government is flying people in from eastern Europe to pick fruit. Why? Because British people won't pick fruit. You'd think that Brexiteers would have been chomping at the bit to do it now that foreigners have stopped taking their jobs.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
The whole sorry saga has made me reflect on the meaning of money anyway. Before anyone lampoons this I did at least study economics at A level.
What's it all about? The bits of paper or bank statements reflect what, exactly? Manufactured goods? Services? One person picks fruit in a field and indirectly someone pushing paper clips around a desk pays her, who in turn is paid by someone else placing some sort of value on the paper clip work they do. That person is paid by other people including investors in paper clips etc. etc.
It's all meaningless really.
If anyone wants to get rid of this "meaningless" paper, I'll take it off your hands...
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
All the fruit picking and hotel cleaning jobs that they want.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
In case you hadn't noticed, the worlds changed. Re-fighting arguments from 10 years ago isn't productive.
What was right then, might not be whats right now.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
In case you hadn't noticed, the worlds changed. Re-fighting arguments from 10 years ago isn't productive.
What was right then, might not be whats right now.
Interesting thread header from @Cyclefree once again - thank you. Lots I disagree with this time but that's fine.
Here's my solution (foc) to the national debt problem:
Total UK wealth was £14.6 trillion in 2018 accroding to the ONS. It probably rose in the two years since before falling by 10 - 20% in the past couple of months, so say it's circa £12.5tn now.
In March 2020, UK public sector net debt was £1,791.5 billion (or 79.1% of GDP). Let's say that rises to £2.5tn (110% of pre-corona GDP).
Put a charge of 20% on everyone's wealth and ask them to pay tax on that at whatever % the government is paying on its debt (c 2.6% I believe). Thus a wealth and asset tax of 2.6% of 20% = 0.52%.
Then charge of 20% on ALL transfers of wealth until the national debt is down to acceptable levels.
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What has humanity done to allow a virus like this to ravage the world.
It is the animals revenge and we all need to turn our minds to respecting and valuing the worlds creatures and their environment and realising that there is far more to life than ' turning a dollar'
I cannot say I get much moved when people talk about animals revenge or the planet etc striking back. I think its unhelpful anthropomorphism and ascribing meaning to meaningless.
Thst might well lead to good positive actions from good motivations, valuing the worlds creatures is good, but 'nature strikes back' style talk I think is unnecessary and overwrought, in a situation which is wrought enough.
It is actually quite widely reported and felt by many that the utterly disgraceful way the Chinese look after animals, covid is their response
However, I have to accept Sao Paulo unimaginable horror has made me angry
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so Brexit voters will get what they want with Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
And how will we be doing that. This government is flying people in from eastern Europe to pick fruit. Why? Because British people won't pick fruit. You'd think that Brexiteers would have been chomping at the bit to do it now that foreigners have stopped taking their jobs.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
She won't. She can't. Even if she wanted to.
Have you not seen the specific details on the fruit picking vacancies? They promised £15 per hour but its actually more like minimum wage. The nearest farm is 100m away and you have to work 6 days a week, and live in a caravan, the cost of which is deducted from your meagre wages.
The fruit picking industry is a disgrace. How can they expect British people to do the work if they treat their workers like little more than slaves?
They deployed the classic sales tactic of not making their offer until people had actually applied and invested time.
I just cannot see Boris having the stones to significantly raise taxes. I imagine several such ideas will be floated in the media, people will say of course they agree taxes should rise but not those ones, and that'll be that.
And God forbid any major freebies get taken away, especially for older people - spent their life paying taxes, then suffered more than any under the virus and to get financially punished for it they'll cry? Something token at best. Grey vote bribery at election time is too vital .
Notified yesterday that my 'new' free TV licence only lasts until July 31st; from then on I will have to pay again.
There will be plenty of opportunity to make money as the lockdown lifts.
Masks, rentals in remote areas, innovative take away food sources as work canteens will be closed, take away alcohol.
Regarding property - If I had an air bnb to rent I'd rather have a remote cottage over city centre apartment which relies on tourists, stag nights etc.
We might see some landlords actually rent their properties out for people to live in.
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
I dont think that is clear. Many think that now, but in a month? Two? When decisions contemplated now would bite?
It may be a situation where humanity's ability to muddle along, our resilience, so often great, may actually hinder dropping ways of thinking. Trajectories dont always change as the header notes.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
All the fruit picking and hotel cleaning jobs that they want.
I thought I'd read that the Immigration Bit had been quietly dropped. For now, anyway.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so Brexit voters will get what they want with Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
And how will we be doing that. This government is flying people in from eastern Europe to pick fruit. Why? Because British people won't pick fruit. You'd think that Brexiteers would have been chomping at the bit to do it now that foreigners have stopped taking their jobs.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
She won't. She can't. Even if she wanted to.
Working class Brexiteers who switched from voting Labour in 2017 to voting Tory in 2019 did so for one reason and one reason only, to deliver Brexit and end open door immigration from Poland and Romania to the UK putting downward pressure on their wages and pressure on housing etc. That is what Boris and Priti are delivering by delivering Brexit and ending the transition period and ending free movement.
The vast majority of them are already working, many in skilled manual jobs, they are not and do not need to be fruit pickers
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
We were nowhere near as globalised as we are now, though. If the virus results in just one good thing it will bring a reduction in globalisation and reduce our reliance on imports. If that results in some price inflation then I think it's a price worth paying.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
You should start your own UKIP lite because you are not a compassionate fair minded conservative, just a Trump tribute act
You are a twice Labour voter not a truly loyal Tory
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
All the fruit picking and hotel cleaning jobs that they want.
The world collectively seems to be in lots of debt, but who is the debt owed to ? What would happen if it was just cancelled collectively by the EU, USA, Japan and ourselves ? Is China in debt ?
There's no need, the debt from this whole crisis wilo be monetised and the government is set to pay itself the interest. The government currently owns around 25% of it's own bonds for which it pays a net rate of 0% interest. That figure is about to go up to 37%. Around £1.2tn of our existing debt pile is interest bearing to non-government holders, that figure isn't going to change. Our "true" debt ratio is about 55% that will rise as the economy contracts and fall as it grows, but we aren't ultimately adding any new interest bearing debt.
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
When you borrow large amounts of money from yourself at 0% interest rates two questions arise: What could possibly go wrong? and Why is this not OK if a Labour government does it?
If a thing sounds like a perpetual motion machine to the uneducated mind is it possible that in fact it is?
There's a difference between doing it during a crisis in extremis and only as long as conditions remain favourable with low inflation - and doing it on a daily basis for day to day expenditure.
That's like saying if it's ok to get a mortgage to pay for a home then why not borrow for that foreign holiday that you can't afford?
Funnily enough, that was Harold Macmillan's complaint about the Thatcher government's privatisation programme -- selling the family silver. Proceeds were being used as a magic money tree for current spending rather than for investment.
The Cheltenham Festival could have helped to "accelerate the spread" of coronavirus, a former government chief scientific adviser said.
Sir David King, the government's chief scientific adviser from 2000 to 2007, said it was "the best possible way to accelerate the spread of the virus".
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so Brexit voters will get what they want with Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
And how will we be doing that. This government is flying people in from eastern Europe to pick fruit. Why? Because British people won't pick fruit. You'd think that Brexiteers would have been chomping at the bit to do it now that foreigners have stopped taking their jobs.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
She won't. She can't. Even if she wanted to.
Have you not seen the specific details on the fruit picking vacancies? They promised £15 per hour but its actually more like minimum wage. The nearest farm is 100m away and you have to work 6 days a week, and live in a caravan, the cost of which is deducted from your meagre wages.
The fruit picking industry is a disgrace. How can they expect British people to do the work if they treat their workers like little more than slaves?
They deployed the classic sales tactic of not making their offer until people had actually applied and invested time.
This - the problem is that Fruit picking doesn't pay minimum wage as the farmers and labour agencies have worked out how to game the law.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
As I have said Boris is a Berlusconi or George W Bush style populist conservative, not a pro austerity Osbornite, he believes in tax cuts and spending and growth. The debt will take care of itself as the economy grows
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so working class Northern and Midlands Brexit and Boris voters will get what they want with Brexit done and Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
You should start your own UKIP lite because you are not a compassionate fair minded conservative, just a Trump tribute act
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so Brexit voters will get what they want with Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
And how will we be doing that. This government is flying people in from eastern Europe to pick fruit. Why? Because British people won't pick fruit. You'd think that Brexiteers would have been chomping at the bit to do it now that foreigners have stopped taking their jobs.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
She won't. She can't. Even if she wanted to.
Have you not seen the specific details on the fruit picking vacancies? They promised £15 per hour but its actually more like minimum wage. The nearest farm is 100m away and you have to work 6 days a week, and live in a caravan, the cost of which is deducted from your meagre wages.
The fruit picking industry is a disgrace. How can they expect British people to do the work if they treat their workers like little more than slaves?
They deployed the classic sales tactic of not making their offer until people had actually applied and invested time.
Well said, perhaps we'll all need to pay a little more for our fruit.
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
We were nowhere near as globalised as we are now, though. If the virus results in just one good thing it will bring a reduction in globalisation and reduce our reliance on imports. If that results in some price inflation then I think it's a price worth paying.
Re-open the mines!!
I mean I hear you but that would be a huge reversal of decades of beneficial trading relationships and increased global wealth.
I don't think even Covid-19 can reverse the laws of comparative advantage.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
So we print cash.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
You and I know that. I await HYUFD coming on to defend Keith Josephism because printing money makes Tory hedge fund donors poorer which is absolutely what all these new Tory voters in places like Stockton-on-Tees are concerned about.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
By next year the transition period will end and we will slam the door firmly shut on free movement from the EU to the UK, so Brexit voters will get what they want with Priti Patel 's points system replacing an open door to immigration from Eastern Europe
And how will we be doing that. This government is flying people in from eastern Europe to pick fruit. Why? Because British people won't pick fruit. You'd think that Brexiteers would have been chomping at the bit to do it now that foreigners have stopped taking their jobs.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
She won't. She can't. Even if she wanted to.
Have you not seen the specific details on the fruit picking vacancies? They promised £15 per hour but its actually more like minimum wage. The nearest farm is 100m away and you have to work 6 days a week, and live in a caravan, the cost of which is deducted from your meagre wages.
The fruit picking industry is a disgrace. How can they expect British people to do the work if they treat their workers like little more than slaves?
They deployed the classic sales tactic of not making their offer until people had actually applied and invested time.
Hence why big business and vested interests are so keen on freedom of movement - its the freedom to drive down wages.
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
This is a popular take but to put the other side:
1) Once people get the ability to travel back, they'll be eager to take it. Travel between countries with a lot of infection and very little will be heavily restricted for a long time, but there's no need for two red zones or two green zones to restrict travel between each other. A lot of symbolic industries like airlines rely on foreign travel, so governments will be in a hurry to bring it back.
2) The emergency response was all about closing things down, but the *solutions* will be quite ostentatiously international: Country X will create a vaccine, Country Y will come up with a treatment, Country Z will be able to manufacture them at speed.
3) Populist gobshites have revealed themselves to be populist gobshites. Effective pragmatists like Mike DeWine of Ohio are incredibly popular. The Trumps and Bolsonaros of this world are unlikely to survive their next elections.
4) We've abolished meatspace meetings. All the things little obstacles to doing things online are being ironed out. People are learning how work day-to-day with remote tools. These have huge efficiency benefits that will make them stick. But once you no longer need to meet your business partner face-to-face, it ceases to matter where you are. You can do business with anyone, without needing to travel, without regard for distance. This is what is known as Globalization.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
As I have said Boris is a Berlusconi or George W Bush style populist conservative, not a pro austerity Osbornite, he believes in tax cuts and spending and growth. The debt will take care of itself as the economy grows
Boris is not a Berlusconi or even a Bush.
That is your Trump like persona painting a picture in your imagination and your views will go the way of Corbynistas in labour, as this crisis plays out
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
We were nowhere near as globalised as we are now, though. If the virus results in just one good thing it will bring a reduction in globalisation and reduce our reliance on imports. If that results in some price inflation then I think it's a price worth paying.
Re-open the mines!!
I mean I hear you but that would be a huge reversal of decades of beneficial trading relationships and increased global wealth.
I don't think even Covid-19 can reverse the laws of comparative advantage.
“1st May - beginning of level 4 lockdown.Companies have been divided into categories depending on their importance. Mining to return to work. Essential Services categorised at either 100% , 50% or 30% work force. Schools to be phased in as from July. Only one trip allowed between provinces. Either to return to your home or place of employment. We are allowed to exercise, run ,walk the dog or cycle as long as it is no more than 5km from house and only from 6 to 9am. The elderly (60 and over) are only allowed to leave the property for medical or food reasons.
South Africa is moving into the autumn and the days are getting cooler for us - ideal conditions for the virus. The government reckons that the numbers of infection will peak in August (end of our winter beginning of Spring). We are at 5647 infections, 103 deaths, considering our population and density it’s not too bad.”
The Cheltenham Festival could have helped to "accelerate the spread" of coronavirus, a former government chief scientific adviser said.
Sir David King, the government's chief scientific adviser from 2000 to 2007, said it was "the best possible way to accelerate the spread of the virus".
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
Fascism mostly.But with it coming at the same time as WW1, the two are linked utterly together.
“Maybe we need to ask why the poor should be shielded from paying any income tax.” Certainly we should ask. And myself, I find the answer obvious. I consider TOTAL tax rates. The poorest 10% contribute more to the TOTAL tax take than the richest 10%. The total tax rate includes not only income tax contributions, but contributions also from in indirect taxes (VAT etc.), and it factors in the the relatively low rate of CGT. Some of us are prepared to consider how things look when income and wealth are combined: the EFFECTIVE tax rate of the wealthiest 10% of the population is 18%, less than half the effective tax rate for the bottom 10%, which stands at 42%.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
As I have said Boris is a Berlusconi or George W Bush style populist conservative, not a pro austerity Osbornite, he believes in tax cuts and spending and growth. The debt will take care of itself as the economy grows
Boris is not a Berlusconi or even a Bush.
That is your Trump like persona painting a picture in your imagination and your views will go the way of Corbynistas in labour, as this crisis plays out
Thankfully we have a liberal Conservative as PM as all the best Tories are like Cameron and Thatcher. We don't have some perverse IDS tribute act of his imagination.
So the thread seems to focus on tax rises, from inheritance tax, to higher corporation and inheritance tax to even forcing the poorest to pay income tax again.
As Margaret Thatcher said 'No, No, No' we have a Tory government not a Labour government and I doubt even Starmer would go as far as the tax bombshells Cyclefree is floating here. Especially when we need to grow the economy once lockdown ends not hammer it with tax rises
We will need to grow the economy and I take your point on tax squashing demand. However, the government - indeed all governments - are going to spend £fucktons. The UK is fiscally sovereign - we can print money which is a distinct advantage to France and Germany. So we either find people to sell our debt to - and there will be a lot of competition - or we print cash.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
We may borrow more yes or print more money, we are not going to hammer the economy with tax rises however especially as it will reduce growth and hence the tax revenues the government needs
Just so that we're clear - you are content for the national debt to rise to whatever level it needs to rise to? That you aren't going to start bleating about debt the way your lot did in 2008 and start demanding that cash isn't deployed to people who desperately need it because the debt levels are too high?
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
As I have said Boris is a Berlusconi or George W Bush style populist conservative, not a pro austerity Osbornite, he believes in tax cuts and spending and growth. The debt will take care of itself as the economy grows
Boris is not a Berlusconi or even a Bush.
That is your Trump like persona painting a picture in your imagination and your views will go the way of Corbynistas in labour, as this crisis plays out
George W Bush and Berlusconi both pursued tax cuts and more spending and won elections. Boris is doing the same.
I also fail to see how that is less compassionate than Osborne's platform of slashing spending on public services? Indeed in 2000 Bush campaigned and won as a 'compassionate conservative'
The Cheltenham Festival could have helped to "accelerate the spread" of coronavirus, a former government chief scientific adviser said.
Sir David King, the government's chief scientific adviser from 2000 to 2007, said it was "the best possible way to accelerate the spread of the virus".
Apparently mid June is when they will have an idea if the Oxford vaccine looks like a goer.
There are about 4000 confirmed cases a day at the moment, so at least 5x that, 20,000 symptomatic cases a day. That is 67000000/20000 = 0.0003 cases per person per day. The Oxford trials will involve 3000 people getting the vaccine, so you expect 0.9 cases per day if the vaccine does not work. First you need to recruit and vaccinate everyone and allow time for the vaccine to work. Once this has been done it could take as little as a week or two to see whether the vaccine appears to be working or not.
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
We were nowhere near as globalised as we are now, though. If the virus results in just one good thing it will bring a reduction in globalisation and reduce our reliance on imports. If that results in some price inflation then I think it's a price worth paying.
Re-open the mines!!
I mean I hear you but that would be a huge reversal of decades of beneficial trading relationships and increased global wealth.
I don't think even Covid-19 can reverse the laws of comparative advantage.
Maybe, but I think the government makes clear that it has helped this time because it was unexpected, next time companies that rely on imports from China to operate will find that their losses won't be socialised and that supply chain risk is something that needs to be taken seriously.
One thing is clear. The world before, and the arguments and the sacred cows before, and the old way of thinking doesn't matter anymore.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
For me this is day 45 in the cage. I've even laminated a wipe board which is on the wall behind me for Zoom calls where I will keep track of the days. That way when my colleagues call me from the wheel in their hamster cage via their view screen to connect to my hamster cage and me on my wheel, they can see how many times we've done this already.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
What were the structural changes after Spanish flu? I mean there had just been a war so that would have changed things plus we had Versailles so perhaps (in)directly the next war also but aside from all that, did the world's trajectory significantly change?
We were nowhere near as globalised as we are now, though. If the virus results in just one good thing it will bring a reduction in globalisation and reduce our reliance on imports. If that results in some price inflation then I think it's a price worth paying.
Re-open the mines!!
I mean I hear you but that would be a huge reversal of decades of beneficial trading relationships and increased global wealth.
I don't think even Covid-19 can reverse the laws of comparative advantage.
Nor should it.
Where should we site our next chip fab? Plus those iPhones aren't going to assemble themselves...
Interesting thread header from @Cyclefree once again - thank you. Lots I disagree with this time but that's fine.
Here's my solution (foc) to the national debt problem:
Total UK wealth was £14.6 trillion in 2018 accroding to the ONS. It probably rose in the two years since before falling by 10 - 20% in the past couple of months, so say it's circa £12.5tn now.
In March 2020, UK public sector net debt was £1,791.5 billion (or 79.1% of GDP). Let's say that rises to £2.5tn (110% of pre-corona GDP).
Put a charge of 20% on everyone's wealth and ask them to pay tax on that at whatever % the government is paying on its debt (c 2.6% I believe). Thus a wealth and asset tax of 2.6% of 20% = 0.52%.
Then charge of 20% on ALL transfers of wealth until the national debt is down to acceptable levels.
Sorted.
Otherwise known as stealing or state confiscation of assets. Once it starts, it will never stop. There will always be some 'emergency' we have to cough up for. It will always be a 'special situation'.
Will people invest in Britain after the government robbed them of their money to pay for their own massive policy mistakes?
its the government that has bankrupted Britain, in the name of a virus that has killed less than one thousand healthy people of all ages in England, as the NHS figures I read showed yesterday.
All civilised states look after the vulnerable when they can, but never, surely, by deliberately adopting a concerted program choking off the productive that solely pays for that care.
The balance between the essentially safe productive and the vulnerable unproductive in our society has been thrown massively out of kilter by a coward government that thinks only of tomorrow's headlines.
In the government's defence it wasn't initially known that this horrible disease was primarily a harvester of the vulnerable and sick aged of our society, but now it is.
Comments
It's why the markets are willing to accept an eyewatering debt ratio of over 100% in nominal terms for the UK.
The Gov't should be considering every option now.
Either way your No No No will very likely become Yes Yes Yes. The point where cash is needed to keep poor people from starving, you will I assume be saying no no no...
Money printing of whatever form is going to be the rule rather than the exception across the world. That tends to push down the value of cash and income, and increase the value of capital assets.
Not a good day for equities again today, though many markets are closed for International Labour Day. Nice to have the Capitalists mark Anarchist protests.
Coronavirus is causing a lot of people to recalibrate. Whether that's sufficient to alter capitalism I doubt, but I remain hopeful.
We would do well to turn more local, in our supply and demand. This is especially true of food.
Talking of that, John Humphrys wrote a really good book which remains remarkably prescient: The Great Food Gamble. Highly recommend it.
But if we are going that way when charities use commercial firms to raise money (be it chuggers or TV adverts) it should be 100% clear how much money was spent, i.e. how much the chugger / firm gets paid per signature and how much the TV campaign cost.
My personal viewpoint is that no charity that uses either deserves a penny of my money and I will and have intentionally avoid giving them another penny.
An awful suggestion normally especially when facing inflation. But we are facing a pandemic not seen for a century and deflation. So really right now printing money is the worst solution we can think of except all others.
If a thing sounds like a perpetual motion machine to the uneducated mind is it possible that in fact it is?
I think the govt gets a huge free pass on the debt level, which as @MaxPB points out, will be monetised.
But we British public are a fickle lot and we will closely scrutinise those excess mortality rates. Boris told us to wait for them and so we will. For his sake (and obvs for the people who have died and were seriously ill) he will hope it turns out that our handling was within an SD of the average, excess mortality-wise.
Otherwise the public might not be so happy and, if there is economic disturbance that the govt can't print itself out of (ie a demand slump), then the public might look for a dog to kick.
What would be an issue is uncontrolled printing to fund the day to day business of government, which is what Jez was talking about. At that point the money supply overwhelms everything else and the currency craters.
And on that cheery note, I bid you all to have a good day. My novel beckons, with not an asteroid in sight.
I think this will quickly turn into rampant cakeism from HYUFDist loons. 'Yes you peons voted Tory and we thank you for that. We're going to enact policies which will sadly make some of you poor and hungry to make the fat and wealthy fatter and wealthier. They matter to us, you do not. Don't worry though - to pacify you we're going to say every day how we are controlling immigration by leaving the border wide open and how we're Getting Brexit Done. Whats that? You're having to eat grass? But you said that you would be *happy* to eat grass if thats what it took.'
Switching the tv on this morning and watching Sky's report from Sao Paulo is distressing and horrific and for once I congratulate Sky for bringing this news story to us.
The authorities are using diggers to create thousands upon thousands of open graves for their covid victims and if any of us want reminding of what happens when the virus overwhelmes a health systems and goes out of control, this is it
Words are hard to find to see the pain and misery of the grieving and to weep with them.
What has humanity done to allow a virus like this to ravage the world.
It is the animals revenge and we all need to turn our minds to respecting and valuing the worlds creatures and their environment and realising that there is far more to life than ' turning a dollar'
Sorry old love, I don't believe for a minute that you give a toss about anyone who isn't you and yours. Happily for your party your ilk are largely in the margins and some vaguely humans have been put in charge.
That's like saying if it's ok to get a mortgage to pay for a home then why not borrow for that foreign holiday that you can't afford?
As for why Labour wrong Tory right, so to speak? Well by every estimation and opinion, Lab was spending far too much in those proverbial good times, with fiscal receipts at record levels. That doesn't mean that austerity was the only option in 2010 (again, Krugman is good on this), but something had to be done to address the size of govt.
Thst might well lead to good positive actions from good motivations, valuing the worlds creatures is good, but 'nature strikes back' style talk I think is unnecessary and overwrought, in a situation which is wrought enough.
You must be terribly sad at Priti's plans and the likely end of free movement, given you were such a fan of the EU that you actually voted to remain. Are you the only Remainer in the village in Epping? I bet you have to keep that one quiet!
What's not as often reported is how much the Bank of England is buying back from the open market.
And yet 50,000 applications. Just 6,000 worth / wanting an interview. Just 1,000 job offers. Just 100 jobs accepted. 100. Even flying in eastern Europeans with Brexit chanters issuing death threats against these companies they refuse to work for, we're going to have fruit rotting in the fields and yet more imported. Bravo. Just think how much better off we'll be if Priti does what you say.
She won't. She can't. Even if she wanted to.
This should be Day Zero. Whatevers needed to protect lives, and make a new economy and society for people to operate in at a decent level.
What was right then, might not be whats right now.
Here's my solution (foc) to the national debt problem:
Total UK wealth was £14.6 trillion in 2018 accroding to the ONS. It probably rose in the two years since before falling by 10 - 20% in the past couple of months, so say it's circa £12.5tn now.
In March 2020, UK public sector net debt was £1,791.5 billion (or 79.1% of GDP). Let's say that rises to £2.5tn (110% of pre-corona GDP).
Put a charge of 20% on everyone's wealth and ask them to pay tax on that at whatever % the government is paying on its debt (c 2.6% I believe). Thus a wealth and asset tax of 2.6% of 20% = 0.52%.
Then charge of 20% on ALL transfers of wealth until the national debt is down to acceptable levels.
Sorted.
I do agree though. We talk in historical terms about ages. Last century there was a post war age of largely growing standards which ended in around 1980 when we entered the age of free markets. I'd argue that 2020 is the start of a new age.
The world will be more isolationist, more hostile, less open. We'll travel less and go online more. The quicker people get their heads around that - and look for opportunities in the changes - the better.
However, I have to accept Sao Paulo unimaginable horror has made me angry
The fruit picking industry is a disgrace. How can they expect British people to do the work if they treat their workers like little more than slaves?
They deployed the classic sales tactic of not making their offer until people had actually applied and invested time.
Masks, rentals in remote areas, innovative take away food sources as work canteens will be closed, take away alcohol.
Regarding property - If I had an air bnb to rent I'd rather have a remote cottage over city centre apartment which relies on tourists, stag nights etc.
We might see some landlords actually rent their properties out for people to live in.
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255979937875574785?s=20
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255965806413918208?s=20
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255965814156599299?s=20
It may be a situation where humanity's ability to muddle along, our resilience, so often great, may actually hinder dropping ways of thinking. Trajectories dont always change as the header notes.
The vast majority of them are already working, many in skilled manual jobs, they are not and do not need to be fruit pickers
Sir David King, the government's chief scientific adviser from 2000 to 2007, said it was "the best possible way to accelerate the spread of the virus".
File under no shit, Sherlock...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-52485584
Not really a technical note - more a list of demands.
I mean I hear you but that would be a huge reversal of decades of beneficial trading relationships and increased global wealth.
I don't think even Covid-19 can reverse the laws of comparative advantage.
1) Once people get the ability to travel back, they'll be eager to take it. Travel between countries with a lot of infection and very little will be heavily restricted for a long time, but there's no need for two red zones or two green zones to restrict travel between each other. A lot of symbolic industries like airlines rely on foreign travel, so governments will be in a hurry to bring it back.
2) The emergency response was all about closing things down, but the *solutions* will be quite ostentatiously international: Country X will create a vaccine, Country Y will come up with a treatment, Country Z will be able to manufacture them at speed.
3) Populist gobshites have revealed themselves to be populist gobshites. Effective pragmatists like Mike DeWine of Ohio are incredibly popular. The Trumps and Bolsonaros of this world are unlikely to survive their next elections.
4) We've abolished meatspace meetings. All the things little obstacles to doing things online are being ironed out. People are learning how work day-to-day with remote tools. These have huge efficiency benefits that will make them stick. But once you no longer need to meet your business partner face-to-face, it ceases to matter where you are. You can do business with anyone, without needing to travel, without regard for distance. This is what is known as Globalization.
That is your Trump like persona painting a picture in your imagination and your views will go the way of Corbynistas in labour, as this crisis plays out
I promised I would try to provide the daily tests from two days consecutive data on Worldometer. Figures are odd for France & Germany but here goes:
USA = 251,976
Spain = 40,829
Italy = 68,456
UK = 83,366
France = 260,912 *
Germany = 0 It doesn't look like yesterday's Germany tests have been added
(*Clearly not correct but Worldometers' France figure went from 463,662 to 724,574 for some reason)
Total test by 30 April:
USA = 6,391,887
Spain = 1,455,306
Italy = 1,979,217
UK = 901,905
France = 724,574
Germany = 2,547,052
“1st May - beginning of level 4 lockdown.Companies have been divided into categories depending on their importance. Mining to return to work. Essential Services categorised at either 100% , 50% or 30% work force. Schools to be phased in as from July. Only one trip allowed between provinces. Either to return to your home or place of employment. We are allowed to exercise, run ,walk the dog or cycle as long as it is no more than 5km from house and only from 6 to 9am. The elderly (60 and over) are only allowed to leave the property for medical or food reasons.
South Africa is moving into the autumn and the days are getting cooler for us - ideal conditions for the virus. The government reckons that the numbers of infection will peak in August (end of our winter beginning of Spring). We are at 5647 infections, 103 deaths, considering our population and density it’s not too bad.”
An import tax on all Chinese products would be a start.
I consider TOTAL tax rates. The poorest 10% contribute more to the TOTAL tax take than the richest 10%. The total tax rate includes not only income tax contributions, but contributions also from in indirect taxes (VAT etc.), and it factors in the the relatively low rate of CGT.
Some of us are prepared to consider how things look when income and wealth are combined: the EFFECTIVE tax rate of the wealthiest 10% of the population is 18%, less than half the effective tax rate for the bottom 10%, which stands at 42%.
I also fail to see how that is less compassionate than Osborne's platform of slashing spending on public services? Indeed in 2000 Bush campaigned and won as a 'compassionate conservative'
Thanks anyway Ben
Will people invest in Britain after the government robbed them of their money to pay for their own massive policy mistakes?
its the government that has bankrupted Britain, in the name of a virus that has killed less than one thousand healthy people of all ages in England, as the NHS figures I read showed yesterday.
All civilised states look after the vulnerable when they can, but never, surely, by deliberately adopting a concerted program choking off the productive that solely pays for that care.
The balance between the essentially safe productive and the vulnerable unproductive in our society has been thrown massively out of kilter by a coward government that thinks only of tomorrow's headlines.
In the government's defence it wasn't initially known that this horrible disease was primarily a harvester of the vulnerable and sick aged of our society, but now it is.
Our policy should have changed.