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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » COVID-19: With Boris back some of this afternoon’s development

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Comments

  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited April 2020
    Hahaha (Edit: awww, the story is 2 years old. Still funny though)

    https://twitter.com/PatrickRuffini/status/1255936027472035841
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    And results in massive brain drain from the public sector. Regardless of your views as to the competence of civil servants, removal of the gold-plated pension arrangements (the one obvious draw to a career there) is unlikely to make things better.
    Better to pay staff the money they deserve at the time of employment rather than for 40 years after they have retired to Tuscany aged 55.

    Strange. Almost all the rest of your posts paint you as a hard-nosed pragmatist. Where's this fluffy idealism coming from?

    It is pragmatic - if certain public sector workers deserve more money then pay em - but now not a padded pension. But don't bloat the system

    Collective bargaining prevents the best public sector workers getting paid more.
    Truth is I'm being disingenuous. I can see no reason for civil servants to retain access to a benefit that no-one under the age of 40 now has in the private sector. It should have been done years ago.

    The problem is that it won't make any difference until at least 2065. The private sector defined benefit industry has been effectively dead for years already, but it'll keep running around like the proverbial headless chicken for decades to come.
    The screaming from Uni staff when it was threatened to be taken away was something else.

    Nothing like next year when huge numbers get canned because there are no foreign students to pay the bills.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Mortimer said:

    Almost no-one outside tonight. Has the novelty worn off?

    Very heavy rain here in lowland East London so very quiet (apart from the rain).

    Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain
    Telling me just what a fool I've been
    I wish it would go and let me cry in vain
    And let me be alone again

    Seems oddly appropriate :)
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    I've never quite understood libertarianism. I'm fully on board with destroying the power of the state, but I don't get why it's perfectly OK to replace it with private power. At least a state can be democratic and have some sort of public oversight of the exercise of power.

    And as for "'anarcho'-capitalism"! ROFLMAO.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Anecdote alert.

    At least three of my immediate street neighbours out of maybe twenty didn't come out for the NHS clap.

    Things changing? Or just poorer colder weather?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Andrew said:

    Hahaha (Edit: awww, the story is 2 years old. Still funny though)

    https://twitter.com/PatrickRuffini/status/1255936027472035841

    hard not to laugh
  • sirclivesirclive Posts: 83
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/europes-moment-of-truth/

    Perhaps Brexit wasn't a bad idea after all....
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    BigRich said:

    Foloing on form the discussion of Austerity V Debt V tax rises. and the long term problems with pensions.

    Has anybody seen the rises in Bitcoin price? up about 18% in 48 hours or so.

    Gland I heald on for the long hall.

    Self fulfilling prophecy. We're approaching the next halving, which everyone expects to result in a price surge. So the price is surging.

    Long run, it's still basically correlated to wider stock market prices (mainly the S&P 500), which is exactly what it's not supposed to do.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    rpjs said:

    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    I've never quite understood libertarianism. I'm fully on board with destroying the power of the state, but I don't get why it's perfectly OK to replace it with private power. At least a state can be democratic and have some sort of public oversight of the exercise of power.

    And as for "'anarcho'-capitalism"! ROFLMAO.
    Amash is really more of a traditional American conservative. He might tip the scales slightly for Biden but not massively.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited April 2020

    Anecdote alert.

    At least three of my immediate street neighbours out of maybe twenty didn't come out for the NHS clap.

    Things changing? Or just poorer colder weather?

    Today was the first time I heard any sound at 2000, and going out for a run there were a fair few down my street out clapping. I think there's delayed transmission.

    In fairness the last 2 hours have been the best weather all day.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2020
    Andrew said:

    Hahaha (Edit: awww, the story is 2 years old. Still funny though)

    https://twitter.com/PatrickRuffini/status/1255936027472035841

    Two years ago referring to the election that they did better than expected and better than last year. Funny that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Just saw the time and realised we forgot to do the clap today but didn't hear any of our neighbours do it either. I think it raining probably pump a dampener on people's enthusiasm.

    I lost track of time and missed it too.

    To make up for it I'll do a Google image search for nurses...
    Safe search on, sir, or you shall be reported to the NHS appreciation society.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    IanB2 said:
    I notice they don't mention the one certain failing - the lack of restriction on entry to the UK.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    kle4 said:

    Just saw the time and realised we forgot to do the clap today but didn't hear any of our neighbours do it either. I think it raining probably pump a dampener on people's enthusiasm.

    I lost track of time and missed it too.

    To make up for it I'll do a Google image search for nurses...
    Safe search on, sir, or you shall be reported to the NHS appreciation society.
    I thought it was Friday :-).
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Walpurgis Night. Traditional merrymaking and socialising will take place in Germany, Sweden, Finland, Estonia and Netherlands.
    Or not, as the case may be.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited April 2020

    No it perpetually depends upon the circumstances. If we had 3000% borrowing but the Bank of England owned 2995% of the bonds and the 5% of the bonds owned by private investors had a 0.2% yield and we were running a budget surplus then how sustainable or unsustainable would that be?

    If we had borrowing at 10% GDP but had a structural 33% of GDP budget deficit per annum then how sustainable or unsustainable would that be?

    I'm talking about external debt.

    Your question? - not a great fiscal position.

    Because the deficit is important. As is the debt. You must look at both together.

    2+2 = 4

    It's this sort of point I'm making.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Paris St-Germain have been awarded the Ligue 1 title after it was announced the season would not resume because of the coronavirus pandemic.

    Liverpool fans will now calling for EPL to not resume matches.

    No no. If it can be managed with safety behind closed doors etc, always better to finish than not finish.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    Thoughts?

    Jo Swinson has the same chance of being next Prime Minister as Amash has of being next President.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:

    Almost no-one outside tonight. Has the novelty worn off?

    Very heavy rain here in lowland East London so very quiet (apart from the rain).

    Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain
    Telling me just what a fool I've been
    I wish it would go and let me cry in vain
    And let me be alone again

    Seems oddly appropriate :)
    The word you need is "dreich", which is the scottish word for "the weather in Manchester".
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Mortimer said:

    Almost no-one outside tonight. Has the novelty worn off?

    Noisier than before here, with fireworks to boot
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    isam said:

    Mortimer said:

    Almost no-one outside tonight. Has the novelty worn off?

    Noisier than before here, with fireworks to boot
    About the same as before in my neighbourhood.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    And results in massive brain drain from the public sector. Regardless of your views as to the competence of civil servants, removal of the gold-plated pension arrangements (the one obvious draw to a career there) is unlikely to make things better.
    Better to pay staff the money they deserve at the time of employment rather than for 40 years after they have retired to Tuscany aged 55.

    Strange. Almost all the rest of your posts paint you as a hard-nosed pragmatist. Where's this fluffy idealism coming from?

    It is pragmatic - if certain public sector workers deserve more money then pay em - but now not a padded pension. But don't bloat the system

    Collective bargaining prevents the best public sector workers getting paid more.
    Truth is I'm being disingenuous. I can see no reason for civil servants to retain access to a benefit that no-one under the age of 40 now has in the private sector. It should have been done years ago.

    The problem is that it won't make any difference until at least 2065. The private sector defined benefit industry has been effectively dead for years already, but it'll keep running around like the proverbial headless chicken for decades to come.
    The screaming from Uni staff when it was threatened to be taken away was something else.

    Nothing like next year when huge numbers get canned because there are no foreign students to pay the bills.
    If a vaccine arrives then all will be well. If not, we are talking an ocean of blood on the carpet in HE.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    And results in massive brain drain from the public sector. Regardless of your views as to the competence of civil servants, removal of the gold-plated pension arrangements (the one obvious draw to a career there) is unlikely to make things better.
    Better to pay staff the money they deserve at the time of employment rather than for 40 years after they have retired to Tuscany aged 55.

    Strange. Almost all the rest of your posts paint you as a hard-nosed pragmatist. Where's this fluffy idealism coming from?

    It is pragmatic - if certain public sector workers deserve more money then pay em - but now not a padded pension. But don't bloat the system

    Collective bargaining prevents the best public sector workers getting paid more.
    Truth is I'm being disingenuous. I can see no reason for civil servants to retain access to a benefit that no-one under the age of 40 now has in the private sector. It should have been done years ago.

    The problem is that it won't make any difference until at least 2065. The private sector defined benefit industry has been effectively dead for years already, but it'll keep running around like the proverbial headless chicken for decades to come.
    The screaming from Uni staff when it was threatened to be taken away was something else.

    Nothing like next year when huge numbers get canned because there are no foreign students to pay the bills.
    The one the puzzles me is that Paul Macartney's family will get an income from his work for 90 years after he pops his clogs, whilst sitting on the arses.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    An entertaining diversion, the hilariously credulous fans are being hilariously credulous again.

    https://twitter.com/FrPaul_Stone/status/1255911294387073025?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Josh89542607/status/1255927404087971841?s=20
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    I agree: defined benefit pension schemes are a ticking time bomb.

    In the US, there are a large number of municipalities that are on the verge of bankruptcy due to pension obligations. There it's worse, because you have a negative feedback loop. Pension costs cause local income taxes to rise. Workers leave because other places have lower taxes. Proportion of municipality's spending on pensions rises. They cut the education, police and parks budget. More workers leave. It's a really horrible negative feedback loop that we need to avoid.
    I think that's a positive feedback loop, pedantically speaking, because it is self reinforcing (local income tax rises cause x which causes local income tax rises) so it is a turbocharger rather than a Watt governor. I do love radiohead, though.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    Why would he be in the debates? What has changed? He is likely to poll less than Johnson did in 2016.

    I suspect he might be marginally better for Biden than Trump by taking some GOP-leaners who dislike Trump but otherwise would have stuck with him, but my main thought is 3rd parties are unlikely to have such a presence this time around. Rightly or wrongly I suspect lots of people who voted for Johnson or Stein last time feel they almost or actually had a spoiler effect they regret (their voters, that is. I doubt the candidates regret being spoilers or even think they were).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    Thoughts?

    Jo Swinson has the same chance of being next Prime Minister as Amash has of being next President.
    As good as that? I would be surprised if Amash polled 1%
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    Thoughts?

    Jo Swinson has the same chance of being next Prime Minister as Amash has of being next President.
    As good as that? I would be surprised if Amash polled 1%
    Agreed, he's about the same as a non-MP ex-leader from a minor party in the running.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
  • An entertaining diversion, the hilariously credulous fans are being hilariously credulous again.

    https://twitter.com/FrPaul_Stone/status/1255911294387073025?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Josh89542607/status/1255927404087971841?s=20

    Jamie Bryson is one of the stupidest people in Britain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    isam said:
    Boris has never struck many people as being particularly impressive, even as grudgingly it has had to be admitted he has a personal touch which has definitely delivered results for himself and now his party (aided, of course, by various political factors). But I don't think anyone who gets to be PM is as unimpressive as we might think, so he is not as unimpressive as many think.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taxing a falling asset value will necessitate an increase in the tax rate which will compound the loss in value and create a negative feedback loop. Wealth taxes only make sense to push behaviour change, not to raise money as people shift money into an untaxed asset class (and eventually overseas to tax havens).

    That sounds like bollox to me, I'm afraid.
    It sounds like it's fatal to your argument in other words.
    Unlikely. But you never know.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    An entertaining diversion, the hilariously credulous fans are being hilariously credulous again.

    https://twitter.com/FrPaul_Stone/status/1255911294387073025?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Josh89542607/status/1255927404087971841?s=20

    Jamie Bryson is one of the stupidest people in Britain.
    You mean in Ireland.
  • An entertaining diversion, the hilariously credulous fans are being hilariously credulous again.

    https://twitter.com/FrPaul_Stone/status/1255911294387073025?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Josh89542607/status/1255927404087971841?s=20

    Bloody Sevco/Zombies, you can tell they've only been around for less than a decade, a club with a long history wouldn't have fallen for this.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    MattW said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    And results in massive brain drain from the public sector. Regardless of your views as to the competence of civil servants, removal of the gold-plated pension arrangements (the one obvious draw to a career there) is unlikely to make things better.
    Better to pay staff the money they deserve at the time of employment rather than for 40 years after they have retired to Tuscany aged 55.

    Strange. Almost all the rest of your posts paint you as a hard-nosed pragmatist. Where's this fluffy idealism coming from?

    It is pragmatic - if certain public sector workers deserve more money then pay em - but now not a padded pension. But don't bloat the system

    Collective bargaining prevents the best public sector workers getting paid more.
    Truth is I'm being disingenuous. I can see no reason for civil servants to retain access to a benefit that no-one under the age of 40 now has in the private sector. It should have been done years ago.

    The problem is that it won't make any difference until at least 2065. The private sector defined benefit industry has been effectively dead for years already, but it'll keep running around like the proverbial headless chicken for decades to come.
    The screaming from Uni staff when it was threatened to be taken away was something else.

    Nothing like next year when huge numbers get canned because there are no foreign students to pay the bills.
    The one the puzzles me is that Paul Macartney's family will get an income from his work for 90 years after he pops his clogs, whilst sitting on the arses.
    You mean they'll get an income from John Lennon's work.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    I agree: defined benefit pension schemes are a ticking time bomb.

    In the US, there are a large number of municipalities that are on the verge of bankruptcy due to pension obligations. There it's worse, because you have a negative feedback loop. Pension costs cause local income taxes to rise. Workers leave because other places have lower taxes. Proportion of municipality's spending on pensions rises. They cut the education, police and parks budget. More workers leave. It's a really horrible negative feedback loop that we need to avoid.
    I think that's a positive feedback loop, pedantically speaking, because it is self reinforcing (local income tax rises cause x which causes local income tax rises) so it is a turbocharger rather than a Watt governor. I do love radiohead, though.
    Almost all of what people call negative feedback loops are actually positive feedback loops.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    TGOHF666 said:
    Hancock.. what a legend.

    :D
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Andrew said:

    Hahaha (Edit: awww, the story is 2 years old. Still funny though)

    https://twitter.com/PatrickRuffini/status/1255936027472035841

    Two years ago referring to the election that they did better than expected and better than last year. Funny that.
    Corbyn will be wanting blood...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    TGOHF666 said:
    And yet the mail is moaning lots of centres were empty.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taxing a falling asset value will necessitate an increase in the tax rate which will compound the loss in value and create a negative feedback loop. Wealth taxes only make sense to push behaviour change, not to raise money as people shift money into an untaxed asset class (and eventually overseas to tax havens).

    That sounds like bollox to me, I'm afraid.
    There's decades of evidence of that.
    Is there? I wonder if that is true.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    I agree: defined benefit pension schemes are a ticking time bomb.

    In the US, there are a large number of municipalities that are on the verge of bankruptcy due to pension obligations. There it's worse, because you have a negative feedback loop. Pension costs cause local income taxes to rise. Workers leave because other places have lower taxes. Proportion of municipality's spending on pensions rises. They cut the education, police and parks budget. More workers leave. It's a really horrible negative feedback loop that we need to avoid.
    I think that's a positive feedback loop, pedantically speaking, because it is self reinforcing (local income tax rises cause x which causes local income tax rises) so it is a turbocharger rather than a Watt governor. I do love radiohead, though.
    Almost all of what people call negative feedback loops are actually positive feedback loops.
    This is a case where negative is good and positive is bad (for stability), so perhaps a bit confusing.

  • An entertaining diversion, the hilariously credulous fans are being hilariously credulous again.

    https://twitter.com/FrPaul_Stone/status/1255911294387073025?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Josh89542607/status/1255927404087971841?s=20

    Jamie Bryson is one of the stupidest people in Britain.
    You mean in Ireland.
    Well yes, but not in Jamie's opinion.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    MattW said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    And results in massive brain drain from the public sector. Regardless of your views as to the competence of civil servants, removal of the gold-plated pension arrangements (the one obvious draw to a career there) is unlikely to make things better.
    Better to pay staff the money they deserve at the time of employment rather than for 40 years after they have retired to Tuscany aged 55.

    Strange. Almost all the rest of your posts paint you as a hard-nosed pragmatist. Where's this fluffy idealism coming from?

    It is pragmatic - if certain public sector workers deserve more money then pay em - but now not a padded pension. But don't bloat the system

    Collective bargaining prevents the best public sector workers getting paid more.
    Truth is I'm being disingenuous. I can see no reason for civil servants to retain access to a benefit that no-one under the age of 40 now has in the private sector. It should have been done years ago.

    The problem is that it won't make any difference until at least 2065. The private sector defined benefit industry has been effectively dead for years already, but it'll keep running around like the proverbial headless chicken for decades to come.
    The screaming from Uni staff when it was threatened to be taken away was something else.

    Nothing like next year when huge numbers get canned because there are no foreign students to pay the bills.
    The one the puzzles me is that Paul Macartney's family will get an income from his work for 90 years after he pops his clogs, whilst sitting on the arses.
    It is said that every time Mickey Mouse approaches the copyright limit, America tacks on another 10 years.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Foxy said:

    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    Thoughts?


    Jo Swinson has the same chance of being next Prime Minister as Amash has of being next President.
    As good as that? I would be surprised if Amash polled 1%
    Libertarians got 3.3% in 2016, so I think they will get more that 1%
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    isam said:
    Left wing grauniad hack responds to criticism of Boris.. is the pope catholic?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    Boris has never struck many people as being particularly impressive, even as grudgingly it has had to be admitted he has a personal touch which has definitely delivered results for himself and now his party (aided, of course, by various political factors). But I don't think anyone who gets to be PM is as unimpressive as we might think, so he is not as unimpressive as many think.
    Absolutely agree. People who get to be MPs let alone PM are determined, clever, resilient, focused.

    I think Boris is all of those things. But he is also solipsistic, not a details guy, lazy, and entitled.

    And those latter traits are what I believe people will now come to see.

    He has one shot - to redeem himself as a born again serious politician having been touched (literally) by birth and death over the past month. There were traces of that today although that might just have been exhaustion and the effects of CV-19.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    At least five other people had died from the coronavirus in the UK by the time the government reported the first death from the outbreak, new data has revealed.

    Mr Recode from Iceland is confident coronavirus was widespread a lot earlier than the official numbers show.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999



    Jamie Bryson is one of the stupidest people in Britain.


    You mean in Ireland.

    Britain and Ireland seems unnecessarily restrictive.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    TOPPING said:

    He has one shot - to redeem himself as a born again serious politician having been touched (literally) by birth and death over the past month. There were traces of that today although that might just have been exhaustion and the effects of CV-19.

    Johnson can reboot his premiership if necessary at some point by firing Dominic Cummings.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    An entertaining diversion, the hilariously credulous fans are being hilariously credulous again.

    https://twitter.com/FrPaul_Stone/status/1255911294387073025?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Josh89542607/status/1255927404087971841?s=20

    Jamie Bryson is one of the stupidest people in Britain.
    Yet we are still told online posts do not sway votes or elections.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Hancock.. what a legend.

    :D
    Not a leg-end perhaps - some other kind of end possibly.

    So roughly 3 tests for every 2 people - I'm puzzled. Does every other person get a second test - a kind of don't buy one but get one free anyway promotion?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    geoffw said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rising proportion of oldies means spending on pensions and healthcare rises, even while the number of workers providing tax income falls.

    That is the inevitable consequence of a TFR below 2, and rising life expectancies.

    There is nothing any government can do about it, well nothing much, and it therefore means that either spending on other services is cut, or taxpayers need to reach into their pockets and pay more in taxes.

    That is - however you cut it - austerity.

    Raise the pension age.

    Scrap remaining defined benefit pensions paid by the public purse.

    The first has a bunch of negative consequences (mainly screwing up the labour market, at a time when we really need it to remain unscrewed).

    The second: unless you plan to effectively steal from millions of current public sector workers and retirees, it will have precisely zero effect for several decades, since most of the schemes that matter are unfunded.
    In the near term, it makes things worse because you need to start actually paying into a pot on behalf of public sector employees.
    In the long term it saves you a lot of money. Hence start yesterday.

    I agree: defined benefit pension schemes are a ticking time bomb.

    In the US, there are a large number of municipalities that are on the verge of bankruptcy due to pension obligations. There it's worse, because you have a negative feedback loop. Pension costs cause local income taxes to rise. Workers leave because other places have lower taxes. Proportion of municipality's spending on pensions rises. They cut the education, police and parks budget. More workers leave. It's a really horrible negative feedback loop that we need to avoid.
    I think that's a positive feedback loop, pedantically speaking, because it is self reinforcing (local income tax rises cause x which causes local income tax rises) so it is a turbocharger rather than a Watt governor. I do love radiohead, though.
    Almost all of what people call negative feedback loops are actually positive feedback loops.
    This is a case where negative is good and positive is bad (for stability), so perhaps a bit confusing.

    That is generally the case, though, because moderating the input into a system is inherently safer than cranking up the volume.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    stodge said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Hancock.. what a legend.

    :D
    Not a leg-end perhaps - some other kind of end possibly.

    So roughly 3 tests for every 2 people - I'm puzzled. Does every other person get a second test - a kind of don't buy one but get one free anyway promotion?
    It is standard procedure to test people in hospital multiple times due to accuracy of the test. This is a good thing that lots of people are now getting them done in a day.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taxing a falling asset value will necessitate an increase in the tax rate which will compound the loss in value and create a negative feedback loop. Wealth taxes only make sense to push behaviour change, not to raise money as people shift money into an untaxed asset class (and eventually overseas to tax havens).

    That sounds like bollox to me, I'm afraid.
    There's decades of evidence of that.
    Is there? I wonder if that is true.
    Yes there is which is why almost any wealth tax ever introduced has been dropped by the countries doing it. There's a reason every nation has taxes like income tax and sales taxes (however they call it) and almost no nation has a wealth tax - if they worked to raise revenue then they'd be universal.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    He has one shot - to redeem himself as a born again serious politician having been touched (literally) by birth and death over the past month. There were traces of that today although that might just have been exhaustion and the effects of CV-19.

    Johnson can reboot his premiership if necessary at some point by firing Dominic Cummings.
    Well yes but whoever his advisors are he is the one making decisions and those can change whoever is in his entourage. Boris retained Cummings and that is/was part of his premiership. cf Blair/Mandy/Campbell.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    isam said:
    A big steaming pile of who gives a shit what you think, guys.....
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Quincel said:

    BigRich said:

    for those flowing US Presidential elections, basically everybody on here. US Congressman Justin Amash, who left the Republican party last year has joined the Libertarian Party, and will try to be its candidate for POTUS.

    Will he win, almost certainly not, but in these uncertain times, maybe, just maybe.

    I will be chearing him on and wish him all the best, for what little that is worth.

    Will it change the dynamics of the election, probably not a lot, but perhaps more than last time, after a legal battle, its more likely that he will be in at least one of the TV Debates.

    any thoughts?

    Why would he be in the debates? What has changed? He is likely to poll less than Johnson did in 2016.

    I suspect he might be marginally better for Biden than Trump by taking some GOP-leaners who dislike Trump but otherwise would have stuck with him, but my main thought is 3rd parties are unlikely to have such a presence this time around. Rightly or wrongly I suspect lots of people who voted for Johnson or Stein last time feel they almost or actually had a spoiler effect they regret (their voters, that is. I doubt the candidates regret being spoilers or even think they were).
    Whats has changed? the legal case against the presedantail debate commition, which (i've just tried to google to find the exact result) but should make it more likely that he is going to be in the debate stage, which might help
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    I would suggest that countries/cities/states fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Totally fucked it up. Overloaded healthcare system. High death rates. Lockdown too late. Lombardy and New York City are the key standouts here.

    (2) Locked down a little later than they should have done, but broadly did "OK". These countries - like France and the UK and much of the US - are mostly looking now to how they ease restrictions.

    (3) Did really well, and have contained the virus. Which is a very small number of countries, like South Korea and some of China.

    The UK is comfortably in the second group. We've done OK. We could have done better. But we've done OK.
    China, subject to an independent audit. That we will never get.
    China did massively stringent lockdowns in a way we didn't.

    Now, I realise this is an anecdote from one person in one city, but:

    - during lockdown only one person from any household was allowed out to do essential shopping
    - shops had temperature monitors at the door
    - masks were compulsory when you were on the street
    - everything, on public transport and in shops, was regularly sprayed with disinfectant. Event the corridors and lift in his apartment block were sprayed twice a day
    - people were proactively tested, and if you were positive you were taken away from your family and moved to coronavirus "hostel" so you couldn't infect others
    - and if one person got it in a household, the rest of the members would be tested every three or four days over a two week period to make sure there was no inter-family transmission

    That's much more stringent than anything we've done in Western Europe, or in the US.

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited April 2020

    At least five other people had died from the coronavirus in the UK by the time the government reported the first death from the outbreak, new data has revealed.

    Mr Recode from Iceland is confident coronavirus was widespread a lot earlier than the official numbers show.

    I had a very bad flu-like illness which lasted until about 3rd January this year. The gap between that date and the earliest known case of Covid-19 in Europe seems to be getting smaller all the time. A lot of other people have been saying something similar.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    It is standard procedure to test people in hospital multiple times due to accuracy of the test. This is a good thing that lots of people are now getting them done in a day.

    Okay but I'd be a lot happier if 100,000 people were being tested every day rather than 10,000 people being tested 10 times each for example. I suspect that nuance is lost on a lot of people as it was on me - most people probably think 100,000 tests means 100,000 people being tested.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    isam said:
    That's been my problem with Johnson since Mayor of London days. I'll forgive a lot of someone who makes me laugh. I have never found him funny or charming, although others clearly do. If the jokes fall flat he has nothing going for him.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    Andy_JS said:

    At least five other people had died from the coronavirus in the UK by the time the government reported the first death from the outbreak, new data has revealed.

    Mr Recode from Iceland is confident coronavirus was widespread a lot earlier than the official numbers show.

    I had a very bad flu-like illness which lasted until about 3rd January this year. The gap between that date and the earliest known case of Covid-19 in Europe seems to be getting smaller all the time. A lot of other people have been saying something similar.
    I know people who say they had a mystery flu in January.

    The anti-body test might show some surprising results if it is developed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    At least five other people had died from the coronavirus in the UK by the time the government reported the first death from the outbreak, new data has revealed.

    Mr Recode from Iceland is confident coronavirus was widespread a lot earlier than the official numbers show.

    I had a very bad flu-like illness which lasted until about 3rd January this year. The gap between that date and the earliest known case of Covid-19 in Europe seems to be getting smaller all the time. A lot of other people have been saying something similar.
    The problem with the virus is that the symptoms match plenty of other viruses too and in normal circumstances you'd just feel rotten not think coronavirus.

    My wife had all of the coronavirus symptoms on Mother's Day last year. Confident that wasn't Covid19 but if she'd had those identical symptoms this year instead from the same virus she must have had last year we'd have mistakenly assumed it was Covid19.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    I would suggest that countries/cities/states fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Totally fucked it up. Overloaded healthcare system. High death rates. Lockdown too late. Lombardy and New York City are the key standouts here.

    (2) Locked down a little later than they should have done, but broadly did "OK". These countries - like France and the UK and much of the US - are mostly looking now to how they ease restrictions.

    (3) Did really well, and have contained the virus. Which is a very small number of countries, like South Korea and some of China.

    The UK is comfortably in the second group. We've done OK. We could have done better. But we've done OK.
    China, subject to an independent audit. That we will never get.
    China did massively stringent lockdowns in a way we didn't.

    Now, I realise this is an anecdote from one person in one city, but:

    - during lockdown only one person from any household was allowed out to do essential shopping
    - shops had temperature monitors at the door
    - masks were compulsory when you were on the street
    - everything, on public transport and in shops, was regularly sprayed with disinfectant. Event the corridors and lift in his apartment block were sprayed twice a day
    - people were proactively tested, and if you were positive you were taken away from your family and moved to coronavirus "hostel" so you couldn't infect others
    - and if one person got it in a household, the rest of the members would be tested every three or four days over a two week period to make sure there was no inter-family transmission

    That's much more stringent than anything we've done in Western Europe, or in the US.

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.
    Putting on a pedantic face covering:

    Intra-family

    Soz
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    rcs1000 said:

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.

    The more difficult question to answer is how (if?) they managed to prevent sustained community transmission in China outside Hubei without doing those things, given that there was a lag of at least a few weeks between the start of the outbreak and any serious countermeasures.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Andy_JS said:

    At least five other people had died from the coronavirus in the UK by the time the government reported the first death from the outbreak, new data has revealed.

    Mr Recode from Iceland is confident coronavirus was widespread a lot earlier than the official numbers show.

    I had a very bad flu-like illness which lasted until about 3rd January this year. The gap between that date and the earliest known case of Covid-19 in Europe seems to be getting smaller all the time. A lot of other people have been saying something similar.
    Me too.Second or third week of January. Violent temperature, sorry throat
    Came on in an hour. Dry cough Utter exhaustion for 2 days.Then felt s bit better.Csme roaring back a few days later with worrying struggle for breath.2 full weeks. Like no cold ever. But not like the flu.
    Was named informally the boomerang cold by my colleagues and acquaintances.
    Quite a few had it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    I would suggest that countries/cities/states fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Totally fucked it up. Overloaded healthcare system. High death rates. Lockdown too late. Lombardy and New York City are the key standouts here.

    (2) Locked down a little later than they should have done, but broadly did "OK". These countries - like France and the UK and much of the US - are mostly looking now to how they ease restrictions.

    (3) Did really well, and have contained the virus. Which is a very small number of countries, like South Korea and some of China.

    The UK is comfortably in the second group. We've done OK. We could have done better. But we've done OK.
    China, subject to an independent audit. That we will never get.
    China did massively stringent lockdowns in a way we didn't.

    Now, I realise this is an anecdote from one person in one city, but:

    - during lockdown only one person from any household was allowed out to do essential shopping
    - shops had temperature monitors at the door
    - masks were compulsory when you were on the street
    - everything, on public transport and in shops, was regularly sprayed with disinfectant. Event the corridors and lift in his apartment block were sprayed twice a day
    - people were proactively tested, and if you were positive you were taken away from your family and moved to coronavirus "hostel" so you couldn't infect others
    - and if one person got it in a household, the rest of the members would be tested every three or four days over a two week period to make sure there was no inter-family transmission

    That's much more stringent than anything we've done in Western Europe, or in the US.

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.
    Putting on a pedantic face covering:

    Intra-family

    Soz
    No, no, that's actually really important.

    :smile:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    stodge said:


    It is standard procedure to test people in hospital multiple times due to accuracy of the test. This is a good thing that lots of people are now getting them done in a day.

    Okay but I'd be a lot happier if 100,000 people were being tested every day rather than 10,000 people being tested 10 times each for example. I suspect that nuance is lost on a lot of people as it was on me - most people probably think 100,000 tests means 100,000 people being tested.

    Actually, there are two things that are more important than shear numbers. Time from test taken to getting results. It needs to be max 24hrs. And priority based testing i.e. those in front-line positions or likely to spread it to lots of other people, need to be getting a test and result in hours.

    In comparison, a pleb like me, who only lives with Mrs U, can easily self isolate and can work from home, it really isn't as important that its takes a bit longer to get test / result.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    I would suggest that countries/cities/states fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Totally fucked it up. Overloaded healthcare system. High death rates. Lockdown too late. Lombardy and New York City are the key standouts here.

    (2) Locked down a little later than they should have done, but broadly did "OK". These countries - like France and the UK and much of the US - are mostly looking now to how they ease restrictions.

    (3) Did really well, and have contained the virus. Which is a very small number of countries, like South Korea and some of China.

    The UK is comfortably in the second group. We've done OK. We could have done better. But we've done OK.
    China, subject to an independent audit. That we will never get.
    China did massively stringent lockdowns in a way we didn't.

    Now, I realise this is an anecdote from one person in one city, but:

    - during lockdown only one person from any household was allowed out to do essential shopping
    - shops had temperature monitors at the door
    - masks were compulsory when you were on the street
    - everything, on public transport and in shops, was regularly sprayed with disinfectant. Event the corridors and lift in his apartment block were sprayed twice a day
    - people were proactively tested, and if you were positive you were taken away from your family and moved to coronavirus "hostel" so you couldn't infect others
    - and if one person got it in a household, the rest of the members would be tested every three or four days over a two week period to make sure there was no inter-family transmission

    That's much more stringent than anything we've done in Western Europe, or in the US.

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.
    And there was a lot of footage of tanker lorries driving 6 abreast spraying the street with some sort of disinfectant. Nothing like that elsewhere.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    Also set up some covid care homes within hotels so that elderly people who are discharged from hospitals while positive are discharged to them rather than care homes.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    The initial operation of putting those brought back from China in Uni halls near a hospital was very sensible. With unis closed, and no conferences happening this summer, all that accommodation will be empty.

    Now, I know there are complications if you are a single parent etc, but all those that can, really need to be taken out of general circulation. That is what they did in China.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    RobD said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Hancock.. what a legend.

    :D
    Spain 1.455m tests (31,126 per million)
    Italy 1.979m tests (32,735 per million)
    Germany 2.547m tests (30,400 per million)
    Hancock 0.902m tests (13.286 million)

    What a legend (not)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    The initial operation of putting those brought back from China in Uni halls near a hospital was very sensible. With unis closed, and no conferences happening this summer, all that accommodation will be empty.

    Now, I know there are complications if you are a single parent etc, but all those that can, really need to be taken out of general circulation. That is what they did in China.
    Single parents can be put in with their kids into larger rooms, the kids are at little to no risk anyway.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    There was quite a buffet of nasty bastard bugs last winter.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Maybe not the worst thing you'll see today, but time is cracking on.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1255944478105505795?s=20
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Maybe not the worst thing you'll see today, but time is cracking on.

    He's noticeably aged in the last couple of years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    Seems high. 6000 found positive today is 84k people. Positive numbers should be going down too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    I would suggest that countries/cities/states fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Totally fucked it up. Overloaded healthcare system. High death rates. Lockdown too late. Lombardy and New York City are the key standouts here.

    (2) Locked down a little later than they should have done, but broadly did "OK". These countries - like France and the UK and much of the US - are mostly looking now to how they ease restrictions.

    (3) Did really well, and have contained the virus. Which is a very small number of countries, like South Korea and some of China.

    The UK is comfortably in the second group. We've done OK. We could have done better. But we've done OK.
    China, subject to an independent audit. That we will never get.
    China did massively stringent lockdowns in a way we didn't.

    Now, I realise this is an anecdote from one person in one city, but:

    - during lockdown only one person from any household was allowed out to do essential shopping
    - shops had temperature monitors at the door
    - masks were compulsory when you were on the street
    - everything, on public transport and in shops, was regularly sprayed with disinfectant. Event the corridors and lift in his apartment block were sprayed twice a day
    - people were proactively tested, and if you were positive you were taken away from your family and moved to coronavirus "hostel" so you couldn't infect others
    - and if one person got it in a household, the rest of the members would be tested every three or four days over a two week period to make sure there was no inter-family transmission

    That's much more stringent than anything we've done in Western Europe, or in the US.

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.
    And there was a lot of footage of tanker lorries driving 6 abreast spraying the street with some sort of disinfectant. Nothing like that elsewhere.
    Because nobody spits on the streets like the Chinese?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited April 2020

    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    There was quite a buffet of nasty bastard bugs last winter.
    Indeed there was, I had one myself. But no peak in pneumonia cases and no spike in excess deaths. Would be a funny virus that front-loaded all the mild cases.

    Still, at least (almost) all of us didn’t go wasting the NHS’s time over it back in January.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    The initial operation of putting those brought back from China in Uni halls near a hospital was very sensible. With unis closed, and no conferences happening this summer, all that accommodation will be empty.

    Now, I know there are complications if you are a single parent etc, but all those that can, really need to be taken out of general circulation. That is what they did in China.
    Single parents can be put in with their kids into larger rooms, the kids are at little to no risk anyway.
    As a general concept, I struggle to see the issue. Most modern uni halls are split into small flats with ensuite, and with kitchen / communal area. As you will have all those people in a single location, should be fairly easy to deliver food to people (uni campus obviously have supermarkets and food outlets already) and makes it easier to regular assessment of people's health as you just need to go around a series of big blocks.

    I would have people go to these, then if they start to get worse to a Nightingale, and then to proper hospital if need serious treatment.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    No they don't. I've said on here whatever I had wasn't covid-19 but it wasn't a "winter cold" nor was it any kind of flu I've ever had. It was a virus but fortunately one which responded to antibiotics.

    Too many people have reported too many strange illnesses for this to be mere coincidence - I've said on here as well I think the anomalously mild winter across the northern hemisphere was a factor in allowing the spread of viruses and perhaps a degree of mutation or increased severity.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Another big daily death toll in Brazil, +390. Had this feeling for a while now: they're going to be worse than anywhere except the US.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    BBC bigging up the forthcoming UK-Italy death figure crossover.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Andrew said:

    Another big daily death toll in Brazil, +390. Had this feeling for a while now: they're going to be worse than anywhere except the US.

    Russia says "hold my vodka...."
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    Normally I get over colds in about 5 days, this one lasted nearly 4 weeks.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Maybe not the worst thing you'll see today, but time is cracking on.

    He's noticeably aged in the last couple of years.
    Yep, he should definitely cut out the ciggies.

    Though I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 'fags kill the virus' guy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited April 2020
    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    No they don't. I've said on here whatever I had wasn't covid-19 but it wasn't a "winter cold" nor was it any kind of flu I've ever had. It was a virus but fortunately one which responded to antibiotics.

    Too many people have reported too many strange illnesses for this to be mere coincidence - I've said on here as well I think the anomalously mild winter across the northern hemisphere was a factor in allowing the spread of viruses and perhaps a degree of mutation or increased severity.
    It was a virus but fortunately one which responded to antibiotics. o_O
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited April 2020

    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    Seems high. 6000 found positive today is 84k people. Positive numbers should be going down too.
    Possibly but don't forget we won't get everyone and some people may need to stay longer than 14 days. This is about going from R_0.7 to R_0.2 as fast as possible. It's better to spend £2-3bn on a scheme like this than have the economy partially closed for another 6-8 weeks.

    Edit - even if it costs £20bn it's worth it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    I would suggest that countries/cities/states fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Totally fucked it up. Overloaded healthcare system. High death rates. Lockdown too late. Lombardy and New York City are the key standouts here.

    (2) Locked down a little later than they should have done, but broadly did "OK". These countries - like France and the UK and much of the US - are mostly looking now to how they ease restrictions.

    (3) Did really well, and have contained the virus. Which is a very small number of countries, like South Korea and some of China.

    The UK is comfortably in the second group. We've done OK. We could have done better. But we've done OK.
    China, subject to an independent audit. That we will never get.
    China did massively stringent lockdowns in a way we didn't.

    Now, I realise this is an anecdote from one person in one city, but:

    - during lockdown only one person from any household was allowed out to do essential shopping
    - shops had temperature monitors at the door
    - masks were compulsory when you were on the street
    - everything, on public transport and in shops, was regularly sprayed with disinfectant. Event the corridors and lift in his apartment block were sprayed twice a day
    - people were proactively tested, and if you were positive you were taken away from your family and moved to coronavirus "hostel" so you couldn't infect others
    - and if one person got it in a household, the rest of the members would be tested every three or four days over a two week period to make sure there was no inter-family transmission

    That's much more stringent than anything we've done in Western Europe, or in the US.

    Now, does that mean I believe the numbers? No, of course not, I'm not an idiot. But I do believe that they took far more stringent measures than we did, and therefore they did a better job of crushing R to a lower level than us.
    And there was a lot of footage of tanker lorries driving 6 abreast spraying the street with some sort of disinfectant. Nothing like that elsewhere.
    Because nobody spits on the streets like the Chinese?
    You must walk down different streets to me.

    Plenty of flob to avoid stepping in.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    No they don't. I've said on here whatever I had wasn't covid-19 but it wasn't a "winter cold" nor was it any kind of flu I've ever had. It was a virus but fortunately one which responded to antibiotics.

    Too many people have reported too many strange illnesses for this to be mere coincidence - I've said on here as well I think the anomalously mild winter across the northern hemisphere was a factor in allowing the spread of viruses and perhaps a degree of mutation or increased severity.
    Yet the death toll was below average through all of winter until Covid19 took off.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    Andy_JS said:

    At least five other people had died from the coronavirus in the UK by the time the government reported the first death from the outbreak, new data has revealed.

    Mr Recode from Iceland is confident coronavirus was widespread a lot earlier than the official numbers show.

    I had a very bad flu-like illness which lasted until about 3rd January this year. The gap between that date and the earliest known case of Covid-19 in Europe seems to be getting smaller all the time. A lot of other people have been saying something similar.
    Not sure I had that but from October to December last year, and even into the new year, I had a sort of infinite cold. Mucus and blocked nose that never ever ended.

    Grim.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Andrew said:

    Another big daily death toll in Brazil, +390. Had this feeling for a while now: they're going to be worse than anywhere except the US.

    But Brazilian Trump says no problem there, nothing to see....has he blamed the gays yet for it?

    More seriously, it seems inconceivable they won't be really badly hit. Places like Sao Paulo, 12+ million people, all crammed into, especially in the favelas.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    Actually, there are two things that are more important than shear numbers. Time from test taken to getting results. It needs to be max 24hrs. And priority based testing i.e. those in front-line positions or likely to spread it to lots of other people, need to be getting a test and result in hours.

    In comparison, a pleb like me, who only lives with Mrs U, can easily self isolate and can work from home, it really isn't as important that its takes a bit longer to get test / result.

    I'm like you - I'm not a high priority but in time I'd like to think I could get a test by whatever route.

    I'm concerned the test isn't accurate which is a bit of a drawback and we need to get the results back as you say as quickly as possible.

    No doubt the Hancock fan club will praise their man to the skies when he reaches the target tomorrow - I won't. It's a meaningless target given the caveats. I'll be much more impressed when large numbers of people are tested once with an accurate test and the results returned within a day or less.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:

    Everyone who had last winter’s cold now suddenly thinks they had the virus already. Lol

    No they don't. I've said on here whatever I had wasn't covid-19 but it wasn't a "winter cold" nor was it any kind of flu I've ever had. It was a virus but fortunately one which responded to antibiotics.

    Too many people have reported too many strange illnesses for this to be mere coincidence - I've said on here as well I think the anomalously mild winter across the northern hemisphere was a factor in allowing the spread of viruses and perhaps a degree of mutation or increased severity.
    People are just remembering stuff they would normally have forgotten.

    If we were in the middle of a sudden alien invasion there would be tons of people remembering seeing strange lights in the sky weeks earlier.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    The initial operation of putting those brought back from China in Uni halls near a hospital was very sensible. With unis closed, and no conferences happening this summer, all that accommodation will be empty.

    Now, I know there are complications if you are a single parent etc, but all those that can, really need to be taken out of general circulation. That is what they did in China.
    Single parents can be put in with their kids into larger rooms, the kids are at little to no risk anyway.
    As a general concept, I struggle to see the issue. Most modern uni halls are split into small flats with ensuite, and with kitchen / communal area. As you will have all those people in a single location, should be fairly easy to deliver food to people (uni campus obviously have supermarkets and food outlets already) and makes it easier to regular assessment of people's health as you just need to go around a series of big blocks.

    I would have people go to these, then if they start to get worse to a Nightingale, and then to proper hospital if need serious treatment.
    Yes, that kind of funnelling system is exactly what we need. Treat it like a sales funnel, the general public go in, positive cases are at the top and ICU cases at the bottom, each stage of the funnel needs the same level of isolation but a different level of care.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Maybe not the worst thing you'll see today, but time is cracking on.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1255944478105505795?s=20

    A man who travelled 100 miles earlier this week to a beach to make a video moaning about immigrants.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    edited April 2020

    MaxPB said:

    So I think it's time for the government to consider the unpalatable idea of holing people up in hotels for 14 days if they test positive. We need to start separating people with the virus from the rest of the public until they are definitely no longer infectious. Leaving them to their own devices isn't working.

    If we have the capability to test 100k people per day we will be catching a significant proportion of the people who have the virus everyday, enough to lower the R to well below 1 in just a few days.

    It's not going to be a cheap way of doing it but it will work.

    I'd guess we'll need somewhere between 150k and 200k hotel rooms and other temporary accommodation at peak. Is that feasible? I don't know but we definitely need to try, what we're doing at the moment isn't working and will not only result in another 20,000 people dying it will prevent the reopening of the economy for another 3 months.

    Seems high. 6000 found positive today is 84k people. Positive numbers should be going down too.
    It should keep coming down - look at other countries (e.g., Austria / Switzerland) they have seen very substantial reductions since their peak without resorting to separating families. It seems quite possible we will be able to achieve the same here.

    The more fundamental problem in the UK is that we have (historically) not performed enough tests so previous numbers have been artificially deflated - it seems almost certain that if we could have tested 80000 people at the peak we would have had tens of thousands of positives (plus of course have reduced ongoing infections substantially). Hence, it will take us longer to get the rate down, but there's every reason to hope that this will happen reasonably soon.
This discussion has been closed.