The Americans like to promote this chocolate box version of England, it fits in with their world view. We’re part of the past. We really should not fall for it.
Americans are quite keen on their past too if you have ever visited New England, a civil war battleground or Charleston and DC.
However in terms of superpower status it is true that the UK was at its peak in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries
And now we are kept nicely in our box.
To an extent but Australia and Israel are closer allies for the US than we are
Who care about Australia or Israel. We’re talking about England and how see ourselves. We are more than the chocolate box.
There is nothing wrong with living in a chocolate box, chocolate boxes are nice, better than a crime ridden, poverty stricken hell hole.
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
First law of tourism is that wherever and whenever you go, you will always come across a Dutch car, if not a Dutch campervan. I always assumed their country was so low and densely populated that a good proportion of them had to be away at all times. Which makes me wonder how they are coping now with everyone suddenly at home.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
I don't think thats true actually malc. I can think of posters from Scotland (quite a few), Wales, Devon, Dorset, the Midlands, the North East - and only a handful from London.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
So with Trump there's always a "low cunning" explanation and a "confused old man has no idea what's going on" explanation, and you can never be entirely sure which one is right. The low cunning explanation is that there are millions of voters who believe in lunatic medical pseudo-science, and they care much more about this issue than the voters who believe in normal medicine, most of whom will just roll their eyes and move onto his next distraction.
I have a different view of him. Yes, it's often fucking hilarious - this latest one is David Brent on steroids - but in fact it isn't funny at all. He is 100% about narcissism and it is narcissism of a deeply malevolent kind. He stands there chatting utter shit purely because he knows he can and he gets off on it. When he muses about injecting disinfectant maybe "kills the virus in a minute" and turns to his flunky and says "I understand you haven't tested that yet but it's interesting right?" he is mocking and humiliating her. He knows she is too afraid to reply truthfully along the lines of "Oh shut the fuck up you ridiculous little man". Just has to grin and bear it. Cos he's the head honcho. He is talking the piss out of an entire nation - and beyond - and is enjoying every minute of it. A warped and evil troll feeding his monstrous ego at our expense. Guy is vermin. That he loses in November is, to me, as important as winning the fight against Covid-19.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
No its not. Its 5, 6 times worse than some cherrypicked neighbours but compare to other neighbours like the Netherlands or Belgium and a different picture emerges. Sweden is physically closer to the Netherlands (not on the graph) than it is to the tiny island of Iceland (which is on the graph).
Cherry picked as in the 3 countries it borders?
I see six nations on the graph and as I said Iceland (included) does not physically border Sweden and the Netherlands (not included) is physically closer to Sweden than Iceland is.
Can you explain please why you'd include Iceland as a neighbour but not the Netherlands besides cherrypicking? Iceland and Sweden may be Scandinavian but the Netherlands is more of a neighbour to Sweden than Iceland is.
Isn't that about a 10% sample of the countries the Gnats have compared Scotland to for what their future is going to be like, when they escape and return to status quo 1700 or 1300?
Usual sneering crap from our resident EDL knuckle dragger.
I have just been rewatching the Novaro Media election coverage, to cheer myself up (given the unintentional humour of their unselfaware pomposity).
I have just noticed that John McDonnell, in his interview with Andrew Neil, said of his and Corbyn’s impending resignations, ‘we will always make decisions in the best interests of our party.’
Leaving aside the fact that their judgement was perhaps not all it might have been, surely anyone aspiring to government should always make decisions in the best interests of the country?
Not that we actually had one of those on offer in 2019, of course, but it did just sum up for me the kind of narrow and small-minded selfishness that characterised Corbynism and goes a long way towards explaining its bizarre policy offering and casual racism.
That defines exactly what is wrong with the UK, both Tories and Labour are in it for themselves, they care not a jot for the country.
If you think any other party never mixes up what is good for them with what is good for the country you are in for a very big surprise.
They all think their plans are best for the country, and in time that morphs into assuming defending the party's interests is the same as the country's interests. It us rare to acknowledge that however.
Givenonly Tories or Labour are ever going to govern the UK , my answer was qualified. When we get independence I will have same thinking around any Scottish party likely to govern Scotland. They do not take long to get self absorbed and only interested in their own selves / pockets.
If you get independence, you voted against in 2014
Britain is killing itself with nostalgia and history. It is important to note we wouldn’t have any history to speak of if we had taken that view in the past. We must not let the Luddites win. Britain is more than a museum.
We are what now? What are you on about?
Certainly we have some negative focus on nostalgia, though I'd argue more from left and right wing idiots nostalgic about politics of the 70s and 80s than the imperial nostalgia types, who are a punchline precisely because they are pretty rare. But theres plenty who think theres nothing to reflect positively on, so plenty without nostalgia.
But killing ourselves with history? We the public generally dont know enough about our own history to kill ourselves with it.
The ww2 our finest hour mythology, whilst important, has cast a shadow over how we are governed and where we want to go as a country. It limits us.
Perhaps, but I think to say its killing us is a bit much. Post war government being part of our finest hour is also part of the myth, and looking back not forwards.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
No Mr LuckyGuy Trump's allusion yesterday was dangerously indefensible.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
The argument from the Swedish guy on last night's Newsnight piece is that you wont be able to judge until the end, and that his expectation is that the second wave in the UK will be worse than the second wave in Sweden. It included the claim that infection rate in Stockholm may already be at 25%
"May" be at 25%.
For sure.
The biggest difference with the Swedish attitude is that they still seem to be seeing herd immunity as the likely end point, whereas everyone else has circled the wagons and is waiting for various sorts of cavalry.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
To be frank, I think this is an accusation that the small-ell left often make against Britain. It is the trope behind the 'its all about passports' and 'you can't stop talking about the empire'. The past is simply another stick that the left use to beat the country with. And interestingly, the only successful Labour leaders recognise this - Blair was a perfect example.
I've don't see it play out in reality.
And my degree is in history....
Have you lived in another country? I have lived in Australia and in Germany, and have had many political disussions from all around the world. You quickly get to learn that Briatin is not the only country and that the way of doing things in Britain is often rooted in the past.
I Briatain there is a strong feeling of "But that's not how we do things in Britain" and "Theres no way that would work over here", and I see this attitude from the pubs up to Downing Street. To some extent, most countries do not take into consideration enough how things are done in ther countries, but in Britain this is actively ignored.
Yesterday the number of deaths in the US caused by the virus exceeded 50K. By Monday it will exceed 60k. The US response has vividly demonstrated the ridiculous inefficiency and inefficacy of US medicine with the best treatment on the planet for the favoured minority and complete neglect of the majority.
Trump spent most of his first 2 years trying to deconstruct Obamacare which was a modest sticking plaster on this gaping sore. I suspect that Biden will adopt a lot of Bernie's policy on health and that it will resonate very loudly in the current carnage. All Americans have an interest in the health of their fellow citizens. Surely even Republicans can now see that.
Yet to be fair the UK, France, Spain and Italy all have higher death rates per head than the US still
Whilst that is currently true many of the outbreaks in the US are still early of the curve with death a lagging indicator. There is a frightening quantity of death in the existing cases and yesterday the US had over 30K new cases. Unless we get a vaccine by November the US death toll may will be over 250k.
The US has a higher testing rate than we do and France does however
So? As I keep pointing out testing in itself achieves virtually nothing. It needs to be combined with a plan of action in relation to the results to make a difference.
Without mass testing and tracing there is little chance of getting out of lockdown before a vaccince is found
Which is being put in place - a lot of restrictions could be lifted much sooner than expected.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
If h2o2 was effective against a virus like influenza, why would the rise in antibiotics stop further research?
@Luckyguy1983.... I am referring back to a conversation of the morning of 23/4. I think you were (unlike you) quite rude in response to a post of mine and did not come back when I responded politely. I would like to raise it again because I was taken aback by your response. Without going into details I suggested something which you obviously seemed to think was completely idiotic to do with the devolution of small states within a larger organization when discussing Scotland and the EU.
Now I don't expect people to necessarily agree with me on stuff (would be weird), but to treat me like an idiot when I suggest something that plainly exists (whether you agree with it or not) for 1/3rd of the states in the EU (smaller or equal in population to Scotland) and which is the bedrock of the USA system of devolved government with States of significantly different sizes, is odd. In both cases they are successful economic superstates with significant devolution to their constituent bodies, even the small ones.
People may not agree with these structures and they may well be correct to disagree, but to suggest I am a complete idiot for even suggesting such a bizarre idea when clearly a billion people live in these scenarios and when these are the two most successful democratic economies on the planet is a bit insulting to put it mildly.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
No it is a dumb distraction, and is stupid at so many levels. Either completely stupid (quite possible), or an attempt to appeal to the nutjobs and pseudoscience adherents that make up a large part of Trump's loyal fanbase. I hope it damages him. There are quite a few educated and intelligent people that voted for him last time because they hated Clinton. Let us hope they reconsider this time.
Yet it has been shown to work...
Well I am even more confused now. I can understand your reply to Nigel, but what has this to do with my post?
I'm completely lost unless you are saying the evidence is it works. But that was my argument. You disagreed with me!
The Americans like to promote this chocolate box version of England, it fits in with their world view. We’re part of the past. We really should not fall for it.
Americans are quite keen on their past too if you have ever visited New England, a civil war battleground or Charleston and DC.
However in terms of superpower status it is true that the UK was at its peak in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries
And now we are kept nicely in our box.
To an extent but Australia and Israel are closer allies for the US than we are
Who care about Australia or Israel. We’re talking about England and how see ourselves. We are more than the chocolate box.
There is nothing wrong with living in a chocolate box, chocolate boxes are nice, better than a crime ridden, poverty stricken hell hole.
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
Not much cop if it rains , your chocolate box would disintegrate. Next you will be telling us the poor should eat cake.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
To be frank, I think this is an accusation that the small-ell left often make against Britain. It is the trope behind the 'its all about passports' and 'you can't stop talking about the empire'. The past is simply another stick that the left use to beat the country with. And interestingly, the only successful Labour leaders recognise this - Blair was a perfect example.
I've don't see it play out in reality.
And my degree is in history....
Have you lived in another country? I have lived in Australia and in Germany, and have had many political disussions from all around the world. You quickly get to learn that Briatin is not the only country and that the way of doing things in Britain is often rooted in the past.
I Briatain there is a strong feeling of "But that's not how we do things in Britain" and "Theres no way that would work over here", and I see this attitude from the pubs up to Downing Street. To some extent, most countries do not take into consideration enough how things are done in ther countries, but in Britain this is actively ignored.
You should try serving on a British local council. How things might be done in the next town or village is often seen as both irrelevant and potentially the work of the devil.
Yesterday the number of deaths in the US caused by the virus exceeded 50K. By Monday it will exceed 60k. The US response has vividly demonstrated the ridiculous inefficiency and inefficacy of US medicine with the best treatment on the planet for the favoured minority and complete neglect of the majority.
Trump spent most of his first 2 years trying to deconstruct Obamacare which was a modest sticking plaster on this gaping sore. I suspect that Biden will adopt a lot of Bernie's policy on health and that it will resonate very loudly in the current carnage. All Americans have an interest in the health of their fellow citizens. Surely even Republicans can now see that.
Yet to be fair the UK, France, Spain and Italy all have higher death rates per head than the US still
Whilst that is currently true many of the outbreaks in the US are still early of the curve with death a lagging indicator. There is a frightening quantity of death in the existing cases and yesterday the US had over 30K new cases. Unless we get a vaccine by November the US death toll may will be over 250k.
The US has a higher testing rate than we do and France does however
So? As I keep pointing out testing in itself achieves virtually nothing. It needs to be combined with a plan of action in relation to the results to make a difference.
Without mass testing and tracing there is little chance of getting out of lockdown before a vaccince is found
Which is being put in place - a lot of restrictions could be lifted much sooner than expected.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring .
Better than inhabiting the First Minister's ring like our resident Nats.
I have no idea as to.the efficacy of Trumps idea but it shoupd not be dismissed just because it came from Trump. Its not as tho we are talking about taking gulps of concentrated bleach....
The Americans like to promote this chocolate box version of England, it fits in with their world view. We’re part of the past. We really should not fall for it.
Americans are quite keen on their past too if you have ever visited New England, a civil war battleground or Charleston and DC.
However in terms of superpower status it is true that the UK was at its peak in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries
And now we are kept nicely in our box.
To an extent but Australia and Israel are closer allies for the US than we are
Who care about Australia or Israel. We’re talking about England and how see ourselves. We are more than the chocolate box.
There is nothing wrong with living in a chocolate box, chocolate boxes are nice, better than a crime ridden, poverty stricken hell hole.
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
I was under the impression that your hero was appealing to voters at the last GE who believed that they very definitely didn't live in a chocolate box.
Britain is killing itself with nostalgia and history. It is important to note we wouldn’t have any history to speak of if we had taken that view in the past. We must not let the Luddites win. Britain is more than a museum.
There is no ludditism here.
I am at the forefront of new tech in my industry, including leading on nuclear fusion for my firm.
Still fifty years off ? (Despite the snark, for which apologies, I'd be interested in your answer.)
So difficult to say. But it looks promising. The spherical tokamaks at Culham look very interesting.
Maybe this is self-interest but I think it's now advanced enough to take its programme management off the academics and scientists (who will take 50 years, and some) and hand over to engineers/project and programme management professionals.
That's interesting; thanks. I hadn't read up on anything to do with fusion in the last decade.
It still sounds a messy business, compared to (say) solar power, but a successful system would have obvious advantages.
My PhD was on magnetic confinement of plasmas in spherical tokamaks (aka spheromaks) :-) It was a while ago now, but as far as I can see, sustained fusion remains a pretty much unsolved problem. The economic arguments in favour of pursuing it become ever more tenuous as solar power becomes cheaper.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
Dont the chinese authorities make a big deal of the greatness and long history of Chinese culture and civilisation? I think a sweeping statement like yours is very unlikely to be correct.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
Trump's comments on chloroquinine were no less "interesting" - sadly they "interested" that guy in Arizona who died after drinking fish tank cleaner and a whole host of folks in Nigeria who overdosed on their malaria pills, some fatally, rather too much.
Good morning. Despite the limitations to the testing, I think the critical additional measure is the requirement to isolate in a secure place away from your household and family. South Korea has done something similar with success.
Yup, for people who haven't seen it Daniel Falush talks about it here - out of all the tricky problems the government is dealing with right now, you wouldn't have thought renting some of the many empty hotels and making them available for infectious people to stay in was particularly difficult.
It seems an obvious step but I wonder whether - like with the masks encouraging people to feel safe and ignore all the other physical distancing/hygiene advice - they are worried about the social behaviour consequentials.
If the British public knew that a positive Covid-19 test would see them quarantined for two weeks, even more socially isolated than they are now, they might suddenly become a lot less interested in being tested for the virus.
I don't think you need quarantine to be compulsory, just make it the recommended thing to do, and don't charge.
Most people don't want to expose their families or flatmates to coronavirus.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
And, conversely, there is still going out and interaction in those countries that have imposed apparently fierce lockdowns. The gap between policy and reaction is different in different countries. Perhaps the outcomes aren't that different (certainly the medical data so far suggests as much) and different governments are simply wise enough to know how far they have to go to prompt their citizens to change behaviour?
Yes - and likely that climbing deaths and infections influence behaviour - even if no enforced lock down, if you start to know personally - even at a few removes - of people infected then I think you'll be very inclined to social distance. So maybe Sweden really is tipping over, but at a later point and with faster growth to that point than countries that locked down forcefully at an earlier point. Working through the pros and cons of that and the economics (and wellbeing/incidence of death and morbidity from other causes going forwards) will be a big job
There will be some fascinating studies on this in the next few years. That kind of epidemiology is my field, not the predicting infections bit, but looking at what explains differences after the event to learn for the future. Not likely that I'll do any of it, except maybe at one remove as PhD supervisor, got other projects for the next couple of years and there will be no shortage of people looking at this kind of thing (though I may try and do something on effects in the particular population I study)
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
The argument from the Swedish guy on last night's Newsnight piece is that you wont be able to judge until the end, and that his expectation is that the second wave in the UK will be worse than the second wave in Sweden. It included the claim that infection rate in Stockholm may already be at 25%
"May" be at 25%.
For sure.
The biggest difference with the Swedish attitude is that they still seem to be seeing herd immunity as the likely end point, whereas everyone else has circled the wagons and is waiting for various sorts of cavalry.
To be fair, most European nations have said that unless a vaccine, this is the only other way out and the ultimate outcome, but they are placing a kot of faith in if they can keep kicking the ball down the field something will come up before we reach "herd immunity".
From the Newsnight, although sweden top egg head didn't say it, he implied it, that he doesn't think anything is coming anytime soon, with his comment come back in a year.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
Dont the chinese authorities make a big deal of the greatness and long history of Chinese culture and civilisation? I think a sweeping statement like yours is very unlikely to be correct.
Yes. Krastev and Holmes is interesting in this regard. They argue that the Chinese have a longheld historical world view of greater China as a civilization in itself, with the rest of the world being "other" (hence all the Chinatowns wherever they settle), and that this worldview remains relevant to China's actions and policy today.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
You are really trying to defend his comments? He came across as he was either thick, drunk or suffering from dementia. We know he doesn't drink so he doesn't have the Yeltsin excuse. He comes out with some really dumb statements, but it is unlikely that he is thick. How anyone could support excuse or vote for this buffoon astounds me.
I don't know what motivated his comments, and I haven't watched them - I hate cringey moments.
However, it must be said that injecting a disinfectant, in this case hydrogen peroxide, has been written up in the Lancet and actually shown remarkable results for a similar condition!
Trumps words are best understood when this young woman lipsynchs them. Remember, this is the President:
Yes, England is an old country with a lothere in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
You've spoken before of your love for England, with examples.
So what's missing for you?
Our cities, our people, our invention, our entrepreneurialism, our multiculturalism, for starters. There is a whole lot more to us than our past.
It was an aesthetically pleasing tour of what's beautiful in England. I think you're reading too much into it because it was posted by Trump's ambassador.
I think England has embracedmissing.
It hasn't. Rape gangs from a certain ethnic background were and still are able to operate with impunity because police were afraid of being seen to upset them or being seen as racist. Multiculturalism is a cancer that needs to be eradicated.
I think you and I have very different definitions of multiculturalism.
No, you just ignore the bits you don't like.
My definition of multiculturalism does not include allowing gang rape to occur. Yours clearly does. Thus, we must have different definitions.
Whether or not your definition of it allows it, it's happening and it's from an imported culture. You're like those people who say Mussolini wasn't so bad because the trains ran on time, or that the empire wasn't so bad because it did some good somewhere. Multiculturalism has been a disaster for our society women all over the country are being oppressed and having their rights curtailed. We should never have accepted that cultural value. Sex selective abortion is still rife in certain communities, we should never have allowed that cultural value. We have girls and women being murdered by their brothers and uncles for having the temerity to date whoever they want, we should not have important that cultural value either.
There's literally hundreds of issues that come with accepting multiculturalism, those who suffer the worst are those groups you claim to stand for on the left - gay people, women and children. They are who are getting abused and oppressed, but because you feel like you can't speak out about the oppressers it gets swept under the rug.
I think what you really want is to integrate the best cultural traditions (the best, not all, and certainly not those that conflict with our values) of incomers into the host nation. And for that host nation to move to being colour-blind. The new cultural traditions should enhance, and not displace, threaten or denigrate the existing culture, as that way social division lies.
So you get a more visually-mixed populace and enriched host nation culture but it is still a unique and distinct national culture, with a unifying set of values, and not a plethora of competing ones all of which have equal status.
That's not what happens in practice. As I said, you can't just ignore all of the really awful cultural imports because we don't like them. They are still here and we have to stamp them out, not just accept it because "oh that's just the way they live" or "we can't say anything about it because it's their culture and it's racist".
I don't see anyone on here suggesting otherwise.
Literally the whole country that refuses to criticise these outdated practices for fear of being seen as racist. Look at that idiot Labour just put in charge of community something or other she literally said the girls from Rotherham should have kept their mouths shut to help community cohesion. Looks at how Sarah Champion was destroyed by her own party (your party) for giving these girls a voice.
Whether you like it or not, this is what multiculturalism results in. Better not to have it. I'd rather have late trains than live under Mussolini.
I am afraid that I just do not believe that rape gangs are the inevitable consequence of recognsiing and celebrating cultural diversity, which is what I regard as multiculturalism.
Exactly. Cultural diversity within the law. This prohibits things like murder and rape and insider trading. Law to be applied without fear or favour.
I have no idea as to.the efficacy of Trumps idea but it shoupd not be dismissed just because it came from Trump. Its not as tho we are talking about taking gulps of concentrated bleach....
Well if you take it in small enough doses no poison will harm you but you can be sure there are fuckwits out there who will hear the words of GOB [the Great Orange Berk] and swig it down like whiskey.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
That's your oppression/grievance fantasy talking that speaks more to your prejudices about London than anyone elses prejudices about Scotland. Very few people on here, given the amount of anti-London prejudice bandied about, live within the M25 anyway. And I am not sure what inhabiting "the M25 ring" means. Is this supposed entity a ring of towns including Dartford, Redhill, Sevenoaks and Watford?
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
The argument from the Swedish guy on last night's Newsnight piece is that you wont be able to judge until the end, and that his expectation is that the second wave in the UK will be worse than the second wave in Sweden. It included the claim that infection rate in Stockholm may already be at 25%
"May" be at 25%.
For sure.
The biggest difference with the Swedish attitude is that they still seem to be seeing herd immunity as the likely end point, whereas everyone else has circled the wagons and is waiting for various sorts of cavalry.
To be fair, most European nations have said that unless a vaccine, this is the only other way out and the ultimate outcome, but they are placing a kot of faith in if they can keep kicking the ball down the field something will come up before we reach "herd immunity".
From the Newsnight, although sweden top egg head didn't say it, he implied it, that he doesn't think anything is coming anytime soon, with his comment come back in a year.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
As China planned so well to avoid Covid
Look at China's strategic approach (Belt and Road initiative, investment in Africa etc) and contrast that with UK approach (fine words plus make it up as you go along).
Which countries are in relative ascendency and which are in relative decline? And why is that?
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
To be frank, I think this is an accusation that the small-ell left often make against Britain. It is the trope behind the 'its all about passports' and 'you can't stop talking about the empire'. The past is simply another stick that the left use to beat the country with. And interestingly, the only successful Labour leaders recognise this - Blair was a perfect example.
I've don't see it play out in reality.
And my degree is in history....
Have you lived in another country? I have lived in Australia and in Germany, and have had many political disussions from all around the world. You quickly get to learn that Briatin is not the only country and that the way of doing things in Britain is often rooted in the past.
I Briatain there is a strong feeling of "But that's not how we do things in Britain" and "Theres no way that would work over here", and I see this attitude from the pubs up to Downing Street. To some extent, most countries do not take into consideration enough how things are done in ther countries, but in Britain this is actively ignored.
I have no idea as to.the efficacy of Trumps idea but it shoupd not be dismissed just because it came from Trump. Its not as tho we are talking about taking gulps of concentrated bleach....
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
As China planned so well to avoid Covid
Look at China's strategic approach (Belt and Road initiative, investment in Africa etc) and contrast that with UK approach (fine words plus make it up as you go along).
Which countries are in relative ascendency and which are in relative decline? And why is that?
I'm really not sure that anyone can yet claim results for the Chinese approach, since they have only slightly lifted the provincial lockdown and we do not yet know what will happen to the other 1.3 billion (or however many) people.
I think the UK has been making significant investment just in Foreign Aid - 100bn over 7 years or so? In Europe only Germany comes close in cash terms. Perhaps we need to seriously rethink attaching strings.
The Americans like to promote this chocolate box version of England, it fits in with their world view. We’re part of the past. We really should not fall for it.
Americans are quite keen on their past too if you have ever visited New England, a civil war battleground or Charleston and DC.
However in terms of superpower status it is true that the UK was at its peak in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries
And now we are kept nicely in our box.
To an extent but Australia and Israel are closer allies for the US than we are
Who care about Australia or Israel. We’re talking about England and how see ourselves. We are more than the chocolate box.
There is nothing wrong with living in a chocolate box, chocolate boxes are nice, better than a crime ridden, poverty stricken hell hole.
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
I didn’t realise the Eloi emerged due to a deliberate political choice. Wells was right.
Mr. Barnesian, China has no cultural baggage/white middle class guilt when it comes to Africa, and its non-democratic government means that strategic planning can work better (neither changing parties nor high court challenges get in the way).
Of course, if we had a media that scrutinised policies more than personalities rather than the other way around, that'd help too.
The biggest shift is simply due to China et al. getting richer.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
I thought you were all high on Irn Bru and looking for a fight? Or an argument.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
The argument from the Swedish guy on last night's Newsnight piece is that you wont be able to judge until the end, and that his expectation is that the second wave in the UK will be worse than the second wave in Sweden. It included the claim that infection rate in Stockholm may already be at 25%
"May" be at 25%.
For sure.
The biggest difference with the Swedish attitude is that they still seem to be seeing herd immunity as the likely end point, whereas everyone else has circled the wagons and is waiting for various sorts of cavalry.
To be fair, most European nations have said that unless a vaccine, this is the only other way out and the ultimate outcome, but they are placing a kot of faith in if they can keep kicking the ball down the field something will come up before we reach "herd immunity".
From the Newsnight, although sweden top egg head didn't say it, he implied it, that he doesn't think anything is coming anytime soon, with his comment come back in a year.
yeah, this is basically the sort of summary you'd hope the press, educating and informing as they do (!) would come up with. For a number of reasons, the Swedish politicians and supporting scientists think they can take a bigger 'hit' now, without overworking their health service and without breaking their society.
The two words you *need* to add in any discussion of the situation remain "so far"
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
Dont the chinese authorities make a big deal of the greatness and long history of Chinese culture and civilisation? I think a sweeping statement like yours is very unlikely to be correct.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
I wish people would stop repeating this bollocks, there's herd immunity or suppression. Argue that suppression is impractical if you like, or that the costs are higher than the benefits, but stop pretending it's not a thing.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
And, conversely, there is still going out and interaction in those countries that have imposed apparently fierce lockdowns. The gap between policy and reaction is different in different countries. Perhaps the outcomes aren't that different (certainly the medical data so far suggests as much) and different governments are simply wise enough to know how far they have to go to prompt their citizens to change behaviour?
Yes - and likely that climbing deaths and infections influence behaviour - even if no enforced lock down, if you start to know personally - even at a few removes - of people infected then I think you'll be very inclined to social distance. So maybe Sweden really is tipping over, but at a later point and with faster growth to that point than countries that locked down forcefully at an earlier point. Working through the pros and cons of that and the economics (and wellbeing/incidence of death and morbidity from other causes going forwards) will be a big job
There will be some fascinating studies on this in the next few years. That kind of epidemiology is my field, not the predicting infections bit, but looking at what explains differences after the event to learn for the future. Not likely that I'll do any of it, except maybe at one remove as PhD supervisor, got other projects for the next couple of years and there will be no shortage of people looking at this kind of thing (though I may try and do something on effects in the particular population I study)
There was a guy on Radio 4 early this morning arguing/hoping that the Government had behavioural scientists within their battery of experts (of course he had an axe being one himself). But he had good points to make.
The French and Spanish had to be told. The Swedish could take a hint. The Brits needed to see their PM get ill himself.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
Dont the chinese authorities make a big deal of the greatness and long history of Chinese culture and civilisation? I think a sweeping statement like yours is very unlikely to be correct.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
No its not. Its 5, 6 times worse than some cherrypicked neighbours but compare to other neighbours like the Netherlands or Belgium and a different picture emerges. Sweden is physically closer to the Netherlands (not on the graph) than it is to the tiny island of Iceland (which is on the graph).
Cherry picked as in the 3 countries it borders?
And Iceland! And Estonia, which has a pretty different history.
International comparisons are difficult, things that might matter in addition to how well the country is handing things: - Lived density - Working patterns (what % work, what % in offices) - Transport patterns (public transport v car and walk) - Ties to countries with early outbreaks (how many people brought the infections in early) - Normal behviour (how kissy/huggy they are - possibly? How much people go to the pub rather than sitting at home) - Age/health profile - Genetics - Climate (not necessarily for direct effect on virus but for effects on behaviours and transport choices)
Now, some of those are similar in the compared countries (I expect) but maybe not the lived density, transport patterns or ties to countries with early outbreaks. The nearest comparator to Sweden may not be in that list.
Note, I think lockdown here was the right thing to do with the information available, but I'm open to the possibility that with hindsight, when all the facts are known, a full lockdown may well not be the optimal course (the optimal course being the early introduction of the least economically damaging measures that get reproduction down to 1 or below)
There is never an excuse for rudeness - so for that I apologise unreservedly.
I felt strongly that at the heart of your post there was a very obvious contradiction, and I chose to put it down sarcastically to muddled thinking.
You are quite right that vast numbers live in small states within the EU, and we see the outworkings of that in the sad situation of Greece. To identify that as a desirable future and in the same breath speak of 'maximum devolution' or whatever the phrase you used was, I felt stretched credibility beyond breaking point.
What I now realise more fully, is that you didn't actually mean 'maximum devolution' in the sense of maximum autonomy being returned to your units of statehood, but of the EU being the sovereign state, with a comparatively 'generous' degree of devolution being bestowed on its component statelets. Those are very different concepts, hence the confusion.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
I thought you were all high on Irn Bru and looking for a fight? Or an argument.
D'ye mean old or new recipe Irn Bru? We could easily have an argument about that.
I am shocked to hear that all the home testing kits have been snapped up in a few minutes. I think we all said that would occur, as every hypercondric in the country bashes refresh on their browser.
It is why we need an automated prioritization system across the whole testing operation.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
You are really trying to defend his comments? He came across as he was either thick, drunk or suffering from dementia. We know he doesn't drink so he doesn't have the Yeltsin excuse. He comes out with some really dumb statements, but it is unlikely that he is thick. How anyone could support excuse or vote for this buffoon astounds me.
I don't know what motivated his comments, and I haven't watched them - I hate cringey moments.
However, it must be said that injecting a disinfectant, in this case hydrogen peroxide, has been written up in the Lancet and actually shown remarkable results for a similar condition!
Trumps words are best understood when this young woman lipsynchs them. Remember, this is the President:
This stuff is great - but the risk is he just becomes more and more embedded as a kind of incredibly amusing popular culture icon. You know, a Guilty Pleasure.
I would rather he was not covered by the media and ignored by everyone else.
In fact, new approach from yours truly. No further comments on Donald Trump except for my periodic reminder - to assist with people's betting - that he will lose in November and it will not be close.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
So with Trump there's always a "low cunning" explanation and a "confused old man has no idea what's going on" explanation, and you can never be entirely sure which one is right. The low cunning explanation is that there are millions of voters who believe in lunatic medical pseudo-science, and they care much more about this issue than the voters who believe in normal medicine, most of whom will just roll their eyes and move onto his next distraction.
I have a different view of him. Yes, it's often fucking hilarious - this latest one is David Brent on steroids - but in fact it isn't funny at all. He is 100% about narcissism and it is narcissism of a deeply malevolent kind. He stands there chatting utter shit purely because he knows he can and he gets off on it. When he muses about injecting disinfectant maybe "kills the virus in a minute" and turns to his flunky and says "I understand you haven't tested that yet but it's interesting right?" he is mocking and humiliating her. He knows she is too afraid to reply truthfully along the lines of "Oh shut the fuck up you ridiculous little man". Just has to grin and bear it. Cos he's the head honcho. He is talking the piss out of an entire nation - and beyond - and is enjoying every minute of it. A warped and evil troll feeding his monstrous ego at our expense. Guy is vermin. That he loses in November is, to me, as important as winning the fight against Covid-19.
Again, Krastev and Holmes have an interesting take on Trump (their book is highly recommended). They argue that the dishonesty and absurdity of Trump's stances are actually the point - that he's communicating to his base his power, by being able to get away with it, his worldview, by taking on these establishment enemies, and his willingness to deploy every tactic to win the argument. They draw a parallel with Putin and his rigged elections; Russians all know they are rigged, and the point of having them is to rub it in that Putin is able to depart from what many would see as normal standards of behaviour, yet retain his power.
Yes, England is an old country with a lothere in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
You've spoken before of your love for England, with examples.
So what's missing for you?
Our cities, our people, our invention, our entrepreneurialism, our multiculturalism, for starters. There is a whole lot more to us than our past.
It was an aesthetically pleasing tour of what's beautiful in England. I think you're reading too much into it because it was posted by Trump's ambassador.
I think England has embracedmissing.
It hasn't. Rape gangs from a certain ethnic background were and still are able to operate with impunity because police were afraid of being seen to upset them or being seen as racist. Multiculturalism is a cancer that needs to be eradicated.
I think you and I have very different definitions of multiculturalism.
No, you just ignore the bits you don't like.
My definition of multiculturalism does not include allowing gang rape to occur. Yours clearly does. Thus, we must have different definitions.
Whether or not your definition of it allows it, it's happening and it's from an imported culture. You're like those people who say Mussolini wasn't so bad because the trains ran on time, or that the empire wasn't so bad because it did some good somewhere. Multiculturalism has been a disaster for our society women all over the country are being oppressed and having their rights curtailed. We should never have accepted that cultural value. Sex selective abortion is still rife in certain communities, we should never have allowed that cultural value. We have girls and women being murdered by their brothers and uncles for having the temerity to date whoever they want, we should not have important that cultural value either.
There's literally hundreds of issues that come with accepting multiculturalism, those who suffer the worst are those groups you claim to stand for on the left - gay people, women and children. They are who are getting abused and oppressed, but because you feel like you can't speak out about the oppressers it gets swept under the rug.
The real problem is multiculturalism vs Multiculturalism.
What I mean by this is that the lower case version is the toleration and acceptance of multiple cultures, with a common theme of shared values. This is what people, in general, in the UK accept.
The capitalised version is the one with the grievance matrix, the cultural cringe etc. This means differing standards applied to different groups. This ultimately leads to Rotheram et al - if you have differential standards in law enforcement, the bad people will fill the space.
The garbage that is then pulled is to say that if you don't like Multiculturalism, you are against multiculturalism and are a BNP member.
I think that is very astute and very important. I am entirely opposed to a world view that dicatates we accept every aspect of every culture as being of equal worth. Clearly that is not the case. There are certain core values that are non-negotiable. But that does not preclude the acceptance and celebraiton of difference. And that, for me, is what multiculturalism is.
The politicians who promoted multiculturalism as an idea in the 60s, Roy Jenkins, Lord Lester for instance, were horrified by what it led to. They thought it was Little m and regretted that people took it to be capital M
@Luckyguy1983.... I am referring back to a conversation of the morning of 23/4. I think you were (unlike you) quite rude in response to a post of mine and did not come back when I responded politely. I would like to raise it again because I was taken aback by your response. Without going into details I suggested something which you obviously seemed to think was completely idiotic to do with the devolution of small states within a larger organization when discussing Scotland and the EU.
Now I don't expect people to necessarily agree with me on stuff (would be weird), but to treat me like an idiot when I suggest something that plainly exists (whether you agree with it or not) for 1/3rd of the states in the EU (smaller or equal in population to Scotland) and which is the bedrock of the USA system of devolved government with States of significantly different sizes, is odd. In both cases they are successful economic superstates with significant devolution to their constituent bodies, even the small ones.
People may not agree with these structures and they may well be correct to disagree, but to suggest I am a complete idiot for even suggesting such a bizarre idea when clearly a billion people live in these scenarios and when these are the two most successful democratic economies on the planet is a bit insulting to put it mildly.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
No it is a dumb distraction, and is stupid at so many levels. Either completely stupid (quite possible), or an attempt to appeal to the nutjobs and pseudoscience adherents that make up a large part of Trump's loyal fanbase. I hope it damages him. There are quite a few educated and intelligent people that voted for him last time because they hated Clinton. Let us hope they reconsider this time.
Yet it has been shown to work...
Well I am even more confused now. I can understand your reply to Nigel, but what has this to do with my post?
I'm completely lost unless you are saying the evidence is it works. But that was my argument. You disagreed with me!
I planned to respond, decided to respond to his first, but my browser saved a draft of my quote - does it all the time, very annoying.
Yes, England is an old country with a lothere in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
You've spoken before of your love for England, with examples.
So what's missing for you?
Our cities, our people, our invention, our entrepreneurialism, our multiculturalism, for starters. There is a whole lot more to us than our past.
It was an aesthetically pleasing tour of what's beautiful in England. I think you're reading too much into it because it was posted by Trump's ambassador.
I think England has embracedmissing.
It hasn't. Rape gangs from a certain ethnic background were and still are able to operate with impunity because police were afraid of being seen to upset them or being seen as racist. Multiculturalism is a cancer that needs to be eradicated.
I think you and I have very different definitions of multiculturalism.
No, you just ignore the bits you don't like.
My definition of multiculturalism does not include allowing gang rape to occur. Yours clearly does. Thus, we must have different definitions.
Whether or not your definition of it allows it, it's happening and it's from an imported culture. You're like those people who say Mussolini wasn't so bad because the trains ran on time, or that the empire wasn't so bad because it did some good somewhere. Multiculturalism has been a disaster for our society women all over the country are being oppressed and having their rights curtailed. We should never have accepted that cultural value. Sex selective abortion is still rife in certain communities, we should never have allowed that cultural value. We have girls and women being murdered by their brothers and uncles for having the temerity to date whoever they want, we should not have important that cultural value either.
There's literally hundreds of issues that come with accepting multiculturalism, those who suffer the worst are those groups you claim to stand for on the left - gay people, women and children. They are who are getting abused and oppressed, but because you feel like you can't speak out about the oppressers it gets swept under the rug.
The real problem is multiculturalism vs Multiculturalism.
What I mean by this is that the lower case version is the toleration and acceptance of multiple cultures, with a common theme of shared values. This is what people, in general, in the UK accept.
The capitalised version is the one with the grievance matrix, the cultural cringe etc. This means differing standards applied to different groups. This ultimately leads to Rotheram et al - if you have differential standards in law enforcement, the bad people will fill the space.
The garbage that is then pulled is to say that if you don't like Multiculturalism, you are against multiculturalism and are a BNP member.
I think that is very astute and very important. I am entirely opposed to a world view that dicatates we accept every aspect of every culture as being of equal worth. Clearly that is not the case. There are certain core values that are non-negotiable. But that does not preclude the acceptance and celebraiton of difference. And that, for me, is what multiculturalism is.
The politicians who promoted multiculturalism as an idea in the 60s, Roy Jenkins, Lord Lester for instance, were horrified by what it led to. They thought it was Little m and regretted that people took it to be capital M
The little m involves using common sense and judgement.
The Blockführer types find both dangerous and worrying. So they try and invent rigid rules to make themselves feel safe and virtuous. The results is the big M.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
Which phase of the moon do you think is best to inject disinfectant under?
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
No its not. Its 5, 6 times worse than some cherrypicked neighbours but compare to other neighbours like the Netherlands or Belgium and a different picture emerges. Sweden is physically closer to the Netherlands (not on the graph) than it is to the tiny island of Iceland (which is on the graph).
They are not cherry-picked neighbours - Sweden is a Scandinavian country and is therefore usually grouped with the other Scandinavian countries because of the similarities between them. Saying it is more logical to compare them with Belgium is grasping at straws simply because it fits your agenda better.
The Americans like to promote this chocolate box version of England, it fits in with their world view. We’re part of the past. We really should not fall for it.
Americans are quite keen on their past too if you have ever visited New England, a civil war battleground or Charleston and DC.
However in terms of superpower status it is true that the UK was at its peak in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries
And now we are kept nicely in our box.
To an extent but Australia and Israel are closer allies for the US than we are
Who care about Australia or Israel. We’re talking about England and how see ourselves. We are more than the chocolate box.
There is nothing wrong with living in a chocolate box, chocolate boxes are nice, better than a crime ridden, poverty stricken hell hole.
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
Not much cop if it rains , your chocolate box would disintegrate. Next you will be telling us the poor should eat cake.
This is exactly what the VAT system would suggest, where cakes are exempt from VAT - being a necessity for ye olde traditional English tea - but biscuits are charged full whack - being the staple of dunking in a working class cuppa.
If this discrepancy made its way into a 2019 election video I sadly missed it, but I would have thought it would have been right up Johnson's [terraced] street in his pre-Coronavirus period.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
You are really trying to defend his comments? He came across as he was either thick, drunk or suffering from dementia. We know he doesn't drink so he doesn't have the Yeltsin excuse. He comes out with some really dumb statements, but it is unlikely that he is thick. How anyone could support excuse or vote for this buffoon astounds me.
I don't know what motivated his comments, and I haven't watched them - I hate cringey moments.
However, it must be said that injecting a disinfectant, in this case hydrogen peroxide, has been written up in the Lancet and actually shown remarkable results for a similar condition!
Trumps words are best understood when this young woman lipsynchs them. Remember, this is the President:
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
I wish people would stop repeating this bollocks, there's herd immunity or suppression. Argue that suppression is impractical if you like, or that the costs are higher than the benefits, but stop pretending it's not a thing.
Hi Edmund, just for you
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
Suppression is a supporting strategy. It is not a way out.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
I thought you were all high on Irn Bru and looking for a fight? Or an argument.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
That's a Scottish observation about Scottish people, not an English one.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
I wish people would stop repeating this bollocks, there's herd immunity or suppression. Argue that suppression is impractical if you like, or that the costs are higher than the benefits, but stop pretending it's not a thing.
Hi Edmund, just for you
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
Suppression is a supporting strategy. It is not a way out.
The Americans like to promote this chocolate box version of England, it fits in with their world view. We’re part of the past. We really should not fall for it.
Americans are quite keen on their past too if you have ever visited New England, a civil war battleground or Charleston and DC.
However in terms of superpower status it is true that the UK was at its peak in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries
And now we are kept nicely in our box.
To an extent but Australia and Israel are closer allies for the US than we are
Who care about Australia or Israel. We’re talking about England and how see ourselves. We are more than the chocolate box.
There is nothing wrong with living in a chocolate box, chocolate boxes are nice, better than a crime ridden, poverty stricken hell hole.
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
Not much cop if it rains , your chocolate box would disintegrate. Next you will be telling us the poor should eat cake.
This is exactly what the VAT system would suggest, where cakes are exempt from VAT - being a necessity for ye olde traditional English tea - but biscuits are charged full whack - being the staple of dunking in a working class cuppa.
If this discrepancy made its way into a 2019 election video I sadly missed it, but I would have thought it would have been right up Johnson's [terraced] street in his pre-Coronavirus period.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
I wish people would stop repeating this bollocks, there's herd immunity or suppression. Argue that suppression is impractical if you like, or that the costs are higher than the benefits, but stop pretending it's not a thing.
Hi Edmund, just for you
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
Suppression is a supporting strategy. It is not a way out.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
You are really trying to defend his comments? He came across as he was either thick, drunk or suffering from dementia. We know he doesn't drink so he doesn't have the Yeltsin excuse. He comes out with some really dumb statements, but it is unlikely that he is thick. How anyone could support excuse or vote for this buffoon astounds me.
I don't know what motivated his comments, and I haven't watched them - I hate cringey moments.
However, it must be said that injecting a disinfectant, in this case hydrogen peroxide, has been written up in the Lancet and actually shown remarkable results for a similar condition!
Trumps words are best understood when this young woman lipsynchs them. Remember, this is the President:
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
As China planned so well to avoid Covid
Look at China's strategic approach (Belt and Road initiative, investment in Africa etc) and contrast that with UK approach (fine words plus make it up as you go along).
Which countries are in relative ascendency and which are in relative decline? And why is that?
China has a population over 10 times ours, since we gave up the British Empire obviously we are not going to be able to challenge China economically.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
I wish people would stop repeating this bollocks, there's herd immunity or suppression. Argue that suppression is impractical if you like, or that the costs are higher than the benefits, but stop pretending it's not a thing.
We haven't even tried a tracking app yet in Europe, so not very wise to give up on containment
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
As China planned so well to avoid Covid
Look at China's strategic approach (Belt and Road initiative, investment in Africa etc) and contrast that with UK approach (fine words plus make it up as you go along).
Which countries are in relative ascendency and which are in relative decline? And why is that?
China has a population over 10 times ours, since we gave up the British Empire obviously we are not going to be able to challenge China economically.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
If h2o2 was effective against a virus like influenza, why would the rise in antibiotics stop further research?
Because they were more exciting, more targeted, offered to eliminate specific diseases, and were more commercially promising?
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
So with Trump there's always a "low cunning" explanation and a "confused old man has no idea what's going on" explanation, and you can never be entirely sure which one is right. The low cunning explanation is that there are millions of voters who believe in lunatic medical pseudo-science, and they care much more about this issue than the voters who believe in normal medicine, most of whom will just roll their eyes and move onto his next distraction.
I have a different view of him. Yes, it's often fucking hilarious - this latest one is David Brent on steroids - but in fact it isn't funny at all. He is 100% about narcissism and it is narcissism of a deeply malevolent kind. He stands there chatting utter shit purely because he knows he can and he gets off on it. When he muses about injecting disinfectant maybe "kills the virus in a minute" and turns to his flunky and says "I understand you haven't tested that yet but it's interesting right?" he is mocking and humiliating her. He knows she is too afraid to reply truthfully along the lines of "Oh shut the fuck up you ridiculous little man". Just has to grin and bear it. Cos he's the head honcho. He is talking the piss out of an entire nation - and beyond - and is enjoying every minute of it. A warped and evil troll feeding his monstrous ego at our expense. Guy is vermin. That he loses in November is, to me, as important as winning the fight against Covid-19.
Again, Krastev and Holmes have an interesting take on Trump (their book is highly recommended). They argue that the dishonesty and absurdity of Trump's stances are actually the point - that he's communicating to his base his power, by being able to get away with it, his worldview, by taking on these establishment enemies, and his willingness to deploy every tactic to win the argument. They draw a parallel with Putin and his rigged elections; Russians all know they are rigged, and the point of having them is to rub it in that Putin is able to depart from what many would see as normal standards of behaviour, yet retain his power.
Haven't read their book but that is my sense too. There is much of that going on. Applies to the blatant lying. No attempt to hide it. Quite the opposite. It's a wanton display of power - winding up opponents for the amused gratification of supporters.
Oh shit, my "no more Trump comments" resolution lasted all of 15 minutes.
EiT - what is actually going on in Japan? There’s the fact they declared a “national emergency”. The very low levels of testing. “Reports” that hospitals are being overwhelmed with sick patients. Lack of PPE. And yet the numbers of recorded COVID deaths continue to bump along at pretty low levels.
Misreporting, or misrecording (or stricter definitions for recording)? Or a bit of both?
OK, here goes. The story is too complicated for Western media, so they're mostly writing cultural fluff and bollocks. Here goes:
Phase 1 (Feb): Cruise ship clown-shoes. Quarantine chaos, inspectors get infected and aren't tested, forget to test some of the passengers, put negative-testing people on trains home then they test again as infected. Phase 2 (Mar 1st-ish): Early action. About 100 non-cruise-ship cases, move fast with WFH restrictions and voluntary call to cancel events, pass a law allowing the declaration of a state of emergency (but don't declare it). My town sent me a pack of masks with pictures of frogs and road safety messages on them. Phase 3: (Mid-to-late March): Complacency. Phase 2 worked. Cases are flat around 50 per day. Schools to reopen. People take that as a sign the crisis is over. Unrestricted incoming travel from EU/US. Phase 4: (Late March / Early April): Cases from the Complacency phase now getting detected all over the place, especially big/international cities. Olympics cancelled, ambitious Tokyo governor immediately flips from "everything is fine" to "this is a terrible crisis and I will save you". Govt calls state of emergency, which gives some extra powers to local government, but the response is still almost entirely voluntary. In practical terms we've got a lot more working from home, some restaurants are changing to takeaway only, some shops are reducing their hours. Pachinko places are still open, the Tokyo government is trying to shame them into closing, good luck with that. The central government is sending every household two (2) washable masks, with no pictures of frogs, many of which are apparently moldy.
Here's the data showing Tokyo traffic changes, which shows you these phases with actual data (as opposed to the preferred metrics used by the NYT or BBC journalists, walking around and seeing if you can see a lot of people in the park).
[1\2]
Thanks for the analysis, insightful and different to the headlines we're getting over here.
Just looking at mobility in Sweden and there are some startling falls there - Stockholm over 40% down for transit stations and workplaces, retail 27% down, parks and residential up. There may be no lockdown in Sweden, but people are still taking steps that will be reducing infection.
So the Swedish death rate per million is what, 5, 6 times worse than their neighbours? That is going to take some explaining.....
No its not. Its 5, 6 times worse than some cherrypicked neighbours but compare to other neighbours like the Netherlands or Belgium and a different picture emerges. Sweden is physically closer to the Netherlands (not on the graph) than it is to the tiny island of Iceland (which is on the graph).
They are not cherry-picked neighbours - Sweden is a Scandinavian country and is therefore usually grouped with the other Scandinavian countries because of the similarities between them. Saying it is more logical to compare them with Belgium is grasping at straws simply because it fits your agenda better.
Sweden ex Stockholm can be safely compared to it's Nordic neighbours.
Stockholm and Copenhagen are similiar. Oslo, Reykjavik and Talinn are more spread out cities.
Britain is killing itself with nostalgia and history. It is important to note we wouldn’t have any history to speak of if we had taken that view in the past. We must not let the Luddites win. Britain is more than a museum.
Actually, few things are more illustrative of England's long history than the Luddites, and related social movements such as the Swing rioters, Chartists , Tolpuddle Martyrs etc.
In many countries such social changes and tensions led to civil war, revolution and slaughter. With rare exceptions such as Peterloo, that never happened.
Indeed the Luddites presage many modern tensions, in the impoverishment of skilled artisans by a globalised system of industrial manufacturing.
Interestingly, most of the reform movements such as the Chartists presented themselves as partly conservative - the Magna Carta (mythological version) etc... Electoral reform was framed as returning electoral rights that had been eroded by the innovation of rotten buroughs.
The phrase "Things must change, so they can stay the same" comes to mind.
That was the genius of "take back control". It appealed to a mythological past that we would like to be true even if it wasn't.
Most national myth are like that. German efficiency, for example.
Tartans in Scotland?
Gaelic in 75% of Scotland (by population, not area). Despite the nonsense on our police cars and ambulances now.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
No it is a dumb distraction, and is stupid at so many levels. Either completely stupid (quite possible), or an attempt to appeal to the nutjobs and pseudoscience adherents that make up a large part of Trump's loyal fanbase. I hope it damages him. There are quite a few educated and intelligent people that voted for him last time because they hated Clinton. Let us hope they reconsider this time.
Yet it has been shown to work...
JFC. A single case study (not even a proper case-control study) in /1920/ does not count as "has been shown to work". You are spreading dangerous pseudo-science that can easily kill. Please just stop.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
Most on here inhabit the M25 ring and so have absolutely not a clue on anything about Scotland. They think we are all unemployed , drinking Buckfast and running about in kilts eating fried Mars Bars.
I have no idea as to.the efficacy of Trumps idea but it shoupd not be dismissed just because it came from Trump. Its not as tho we are talking about taking gulps of concentrated bleach....
Well if you take it in small enough doses no poison will harm you but you can be sure there are fuckwits out there who will hear the words of GOB [the Great Orange Berk] and swig it down like whiskey.
He's a menace as well as an embarrassment.
There is no accounting for stupidity. They walk amongst us.
This is a really fascinating insight into how we are seen inside the Trump administration. It is dripping with nostalgia, laden with the past. It will resonate with many here, too. https://twitter.com/usambuk/status/1253229648546324480?s=21
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
Not really, but it's clearly well-meaning and nice of him to make the effort - I wouldn't criticise him for that myself. The fact that we have lots of attractive landscape and historic buildings is one of our many strengths, though we don't want to be seen as a historical theme park and have more to offer than that. I'm afraid, though, that SO is right that it's how we're seen in the US, and not just by the administration.
Most people have a mental sketch of other countries which they can't be bothered to nuance, like the idea that the US is New York+Hollywood+rednecks. or Russia is Moscow+peasants. Britain's USP for many tourists is that we have loads of visual history - that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands.
"that's why London is such a draw and you don't see many foreign tourists wandering round the Highlands"
You'd be surprised, Nick. During Summer the roads up here are crawling with European registered cars, esp German and Scandinavian. Also a surprising number of people from the Far East - who are not very adept with single track roads and reversing into passing places!
First law of tourism is that wherever and whenever you go, you will always come across a Dutch car, if not a Dutch campervan. I always assumed their country was so low and densely populated that a good proportion of them had to be away at all times. Which makes me wonder how they are coping now with everyone suddenly at home.
Glass houses. When was the last time that there was a plane disaster when there was not a Brit on board?
The UK's main opposition partry is set to probe the impact of coronavirus on black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) communities. According to the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre, 34% of more than 4,800 critically ill patients with Covid-19 identified as BAME. This is despite only 14% of people in England and Wales being from ethnic minority backgrounds, according to the 2011 census.
And again....no normalization for location or mention that it needs to be considered....
I have no idea as to.the efficacy of Trumps idea but it shoupd not be dismissed just because it came from Trump. Its not as tho we are talking about taking gulps of concentrated bleach....
Well if you take it in small enough doses no poison will harm you but you can be sure there are fuckwits out there who will hear the words of GOB [the Great Orange Berk] and swig it down like whiskey.
He's a menace as well as an embarrassment.
There is no accounting for stupidity. They walk amongst us.
Britain is killing itself with nostalgia and history. It is important to note we wouldn’t have any history to speak of if we had taken that view in the past. We must not let the Luddites win. Britain is more than a museum.
Actually, few things are more illustrative of England's long history than the Luddites, and related social movements such as the Swing rioters, Chartists , Tolpuddle Martyrs etc.
In many countries such social changes and tensions led to civil war, revolution and slaughter. With rare exceptions such as Peterloo, that never happened.
Indeed the Luddites presage many modern tensions, in the impoverishment of skilled artisans by a globalised system of industrial manufacturing.
Interestingly, most of the reform movements such as the Chartists presented themselves as partly conservative - the Magna Carta (mythological version) etc... Electoral reform was framed as returning electoral rights that had been eroded by the innovation of rotten buroughs.
The phrase "Things must change, so they can stay the same" comes to mind.
That was the genius of "take back control". It appealed to a mythological past that we would like to be true even if it wasn't.
Most national myth are like that. German efficiency, for example.
The Germans are actually far worse at major complex capital programmes than we are.
Berlin Brandenberg airport (far less complex than Crossrail) is a complete disaster, look it up if you don't believe me, which they still haven't all fixed.
They are tapping British expertise for their nuclear decommissioning programme too.
'In 1888, the first medical use of H2O2 was described by Love as efficacious in treating numerous diseases, including scarlet fever, diphtheria, nasal catarrh, acute coryza, whooping cough, asthma hay fever and tonsillitis (Love, 1888). Similarly, Oliver and collaborators reported that intravenous injection of H2O2 was efficacious in treating influenza pneumonia in the epidemic following World War I (Oliver et al., 1920). Despite its beneficial effects, in the 1940s medical interest in further research on H2O2 was slowed down by the emerging development of new prescription medicines.' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417441/
One nil to Trump?
No. Its a stupid, dangerous, dumb idea.
Is it more dangerous than letting Covid kill someone?
I'd bow down to doctors like Foxy in that one but I suspect drinking bleach is more dangerous than the risk of Covid to the average person.
You are throwing around the word 'dumb', you could at least read both my post and Trump's comments. There was no mention of 'drinking'.
The original Oliver et al 1920 study from The Lancet is scanned here: tp://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id42.html
They managed to go from an 80 percent death rate to a 48 percent death rate - and they were only using subjects who were considered hopeless cases.
It might be worth mentioning to you that medicine has advanced quite a lot since 1920 and so has peer reviewed science publication. I guess your knowledge of science is probably similar to Trump's. You are clutching at straws to defend the most inappropriate individual to hold high office in the history of western representative democracy.
Of course it has, but the research in question has never been contradicted. The rise of antibiotics meant research into hydrogen peroxide all but ceased. Which is fine, only in the current situation, with a rapidly spreading pandemic, a simpler 'all purpose' pathogen killer is actually what you need, because research into a silver bullet doesn't fit the time lines we are dealing with. Hence comments about 'injecting disinfectant', whichever mental recesses they come from, are interesting.
Trump's comments on chloroquinine were no less "interesting" - sadly they "interested" that guy in Arizona who died after drinking fish tank cleaner and a whole host of folks in Nigeria who overdosed on their malaria pills, some fatally, rather too much.
With a platform comes responsibility.
I agree, there is a responsibility. Although regarding chloroquine, potentially his comments saved lives by highlighting it as a treatment option. The drug seems highly efficacious when used in conjunction with zinc (which our very own foxy has been recommending since the start of the outbreak). There is also a responsibility of individuals to respond to Trump in a way that benefits them. Responding to him as either God's word made flesh, or as the source of all the world's ills, seems harmful.
Yes, England is an old country with a lot of history and heritage. America doesn't have that. And a lot the rest of world also value that here too - it's why tourists come here in their droves and we have so much soft power and cultural influence.
Much of that does reasonate with me and is deeply moving.
Does it not for you too?
I see a lot more in England than that. But I do think nostalgia is deeply ingrained in the English psyche.
Some people live in the past (nostalgia). Some live in the present (mindfulness or simple survival). Some live in the future (planning and anticipation).
So it is with countries. UK in the past. Africa in the present. China in the future.
As China planned so well to avoid Covid
Look at China's strategic approach (Belt and Road initiative, investment in Africa etc) and contrast that with UK approach (fine words plus make it up as you go along).
Which countries are in relative ascendency and which are in relative decline? And why is that?
China has a population over 10 times ours, since we gave up the British Empire obviously we are not going to be able to challenge China economically.
20 times.
I think that more accurately it was the British Empire that gave us up rather than vice versa.
Comments
Since the end of the British Empire we have not been a superpower so being a chocolate box with good art, culture, heritage and some science and finance is no bad thing
The biggest difference with the Swedish attitude is that they still seem to be seeing herd immunity as the likely end point, whereas everyone else has circled the wagons and is waiting for various sorts of cavalry.
I Briatain there is a strong feeling of "But that's not how we do things in Britain" and "Theres no way that would work over here", and I see this attitude from the pubs up to Downing Street. To some extent, most countries do not take into consideration enough how things are done in ther countries, but in Britain this is actively ignored.
Perhaps summer isn't a write off.
I'm completely lost unless you are saying the evidence is it works. But that was my argument. You disagreed with me!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8252739/Germany-starts-preparing-SECOND-wave-coronavirus.html
With a platform comes responsibility.
Most people don't want to expose their families or flatmates to coronavirus.
There will be some fascinating studies on this in the next few years. That kind of epidemiology is my field, not the predicting infections bit, but looking at what explains differences after the event to learn for the future. Not likely that I'll do any of it, except maybe at one remove as PhD supervisor, got other projects for the next couple of years and there will be no shortage of people looking at this kind of thing (though I may try and do something on effects in the particular population I study)
From the Newsnight, although sweden top egg head didn't say it, he implied it, that he doesn't think anything is coming anytime soon, with his comment come back in a year.
https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189?s=19
He's a menace as well as an embarrassment.
Which countries are in relative ascendency and which are in relative decline? And why is that?
I think the UK has been making significant investment just in Foreign Aid - 100bn over 7 years or so? In Europe only Germany comes close in cash terms. Perhaps we need to seriously rethink attaching strings.
Of course, if we had a media that scrutinised policies more than personalities rather than the other way around, that'd help too.
The biggest shift is simply due to China et al. getting richer.
The two words you *need* to add in any discussion of the situation remain "so far"
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
https://twitter.com/WesClarkjr/status/1242218850474577920?s=19
The French and Spanish had to be told. The Swedish could take a hint. The Brits needed to see their PM get ill himself.
International comparisons are difficult, things that might matter in addition to how well the country is handing things:
- Lived density
- Working patterns (what % work, what % in offices)
- Transport patterns (public transport v car and walk)
- Ties to countries with early outbreaks (how many people brought the infections in early)
- Normal behviour (how kissy/huggy they are - possibly? How much people go to the pub rather than sitting at home)
- Age/health profile
- Genetics
- Climate (not necessarily for direct effect on virus but for effects on behaviours and transport choices)
Now, some of those are similar in the compared countries (I expect) but maybe not the lived density, transport patterns or ties to countries with early outbreaks. The nearest comparator to Sweden may not be in that list.
Note, I think lockdown here was the right thing to do with the information available, but I'm open to the possibility that with hindsight, when all the facts are known, a full lockdown may well not be the optimal course (the optimal course being the early introduction of the least economically damaging measures that get reproduction down to 1 or below)
There is never an excuse for rudeness - so for that I apologise unreservedly.
I felt strongly that at the heart of your post there was a very obvious contradiction, and I chose to put it down sarcastically to muddled thinking.
You are quite right that vast numbers live in small states within the EU, and we see the outworkings of that in the sad situation of Greece. To identify that as a desirable future and in the same breath speak of 'maximum devolution' or whatever the phrase you used was, I felt stretched credibility beyond breaking point.
What I now realise more fully, is that you didn't actually mean 'maximum devolution' in the sense of maximum autonomy being returned to your units of statehood, but of the EU being the sovereign state, with a comparatively 'generous' degree of devolution being bestowed on its component statelets. Those are very different concepts, hence the confusion.
Or are some of the other places in this list part of Stockholm?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1103949/number-of-coronavirus-covid-19-cases-in-sweden-by-region/
Stockholm is fucked though. It is on its way to New York level deaths.
It is why we need an automated prioritization system across the whole testing operation.
I would rather he was not covered by the media and ignored by everyone else.
In fact, new approach from yours truly. No further comments on Donald Trump except for my periodic reminder - to assist with people's betting - that he will lose in November and it will not be close.
I have responded to you downthread.
The Blockführer types find both dangerous and worrying. So they try and invent rigid rules to make themselves feel safe and virtuous. The results is the big M.
If this discrepancy made its way into a 2019 election video I sadly missed it, but I would have thought it would have been right up Johnson's [terraced] street in his pre-Coronavirus period.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
Suppression is a supporting strategy. It is not a way out.
In that case, I will repeat the basic truth of our situation again.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
https://twitter.com/morkins/status/1253444561629741061?s=21
Oh shit, my "no more Trump comments" resolution lasted all of 15 minutes.
Stop it, Ian. Your fault.
Stockholm and Copenhagen are similiar.
Oslo, Reykjavik and Talinn are more spread out cities.
So how does Stockholm compare to Copenhagen ?
1. You missed out a clear part of the post.
2. You've not even read what was written properly.
This does not make me look like the one lacking in basic debating skills, does it?
So, I will repeat the basic facts of the situation again.
In the absence of a vaccine, the only way out is hard immunity. There are plenty of supporting strategies that mitigate the effects of that decision.
and, as it is a fundamentally correct statement, I will happily continue to do so.
The UK's main opposition partry is set to probe the impact of coronavirus on black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) communities. According to the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre, 34% of more than 4,800 critically ill patients with Covid-19 identified as BAME. This is despite only 14% of people in England and Wales being from ethnic minority backgrounds, according to the 2011 census.
And again....no normalization for location or mention that it needs to be considered....
Berlin Brandenberg airport (far less complex than Crossrail) is a complete disaster, look it up if you don't believe me, which they still haven't all fixed.
They are tapping British expertise for their nuclear decommissioning programme too.
But you'll have to look it up because I'm not discussing him anymore.
Come on ONS, raise you game - excel spreadsheets aren't going to cut it.
I think that more accurately it was the British Empire that gave us up rather than vice versa.