If you want to feel really old post the details of your first mobile contract.
I signed up to Cellnet in August 1997 and for £40 a month all I got was 100 minutes to landlines and other Cellnet mobiles, no inclusive texts or data.
Calling someone on another network was 50p a minute.
I was an early Orange customer in 1998. £30 a month that included I think 60 minutes to landlines or Orange. SMS 10p each. Mobile data had to wait until I think 2003
I look at some key groups. 1. How are major European countries doing? Growth rate slowing. Italy, Spain and Germany doing better than UK and France. 2. How is Sweden doing with its more lax policy? It's doing OK. Growth rate slightly less than UK and France. 3. How is US doing? Similar to UK but much larger of course. 4. How is Russia doing? Badly. 5. How are developing countries doing? Brazil, India, Nigeria? Growing a bit faster than the UK but still surprising small in view of their large populations. Not a disaster (yet?)
The low percentage of over 80s in developing countries is key to the low death rate from Covid 19 in Brazil, India and Nigeria
Under reporting too, I would have thought. Possibly on quite a scale.
If a country has a political reason to doctor the figures and
I love telling my friends kids about the days of dial up internet. They think I am telling a story akin to coming across a unicorn in the woods.
The kids have never heard the sound of a modem or fax machine.
Remember when all the telegrams were read out at weddings?
Still got our telegrams. My father-in-law said he had enough of the phone at work and refused to have one at home. When their first grandchild was born we, the parents, lived 200 miles away. I had to sent m-i-l a telegram to tel her, and she went by bus to f-i-l's office to tell him
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
The hope around mass antibody testing. Yes, I remember that. Given the problems I wonder if this will be rather subsumed now by the efforts for a vaccine?
Well other countries are doing it, but it is by sending samples back to a lab. The UK are, but again not at the scale of Germany. Nobody has the community kits that are accurate.
However, it does seem like the focus has shifted away from identifying those who have had it, so they can be released back into the world. Rather scientists wanting to see this data as a very important piece of the overall puzzle.
The UK again shouldn't be too slow, otherwise we will still be guessing about level of immunity, for when a second wave comes.
We need to ramp up lab based antibody testing to around around 500k per day so we can test people now rather than wait for an instant test that may never arrive.
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
Spain (or was it Holland*) ordered a load of fake N95 masks....and then front-line health workers went about their duties like they were fully protected.
Listening to the procedure a front-line doctor in the US uses to ensure he doesn't get infected, you need everything to be 100% and be unbelievably careful. Double masked in the hospital. He talked about layers of clothes, and even when he gets home, he strips off in the garage and puts everything in the washing machine before taking off a mask / goggles and going into his house. The car gets disinfected, his shoes, the lot, every single time he goes to work.
* So many countries been ripped off with fake kit.
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
Spain (or was it Holland*) ordered a load of fake N95 masks....and then front-line health workers went about their duties like they were fully protected.
* So many countries been ripped off with fake kit.
A nasty one is rebadging masks - Put FFP2 in a box for FFP3. Can increase the value 10x....
To try and summarise the situation, if an explanation for the difficulties the UK and others have had on PPE and on testing, it's that we've tried to rely on bulk orders, the norms of international trade still being operational, and a centralised 'mass' approach. Those who have seen more success on these issues have (certainly in the case of testing) relied on a more diverse set of smaller providers, and stayed local.
Whatever your political persuasion, we all win if there is a competent opposition because it forces the government to up its game. We have got so used to there not being one I suspect many of us have forgotten this simple truth. But it's back and the government will need to respond. That is good news for the country.
He's done nothing for most of this crisis except bang on about when the lockdown will end. Much later than everyone else he finally seems to have realised PPE is a problem and started complaining about that. It's frankly pathetic.
I look at some key groups. 1. How are major European countries doing? Growth rate slowing. Italy, Spain and Germany doing better than UK and France. 2. How is Sweden doing with its more lax policy? It's doing OK. Growth rate slightly less than UK and France. 3. How is US doing? Similar to UK but much larger of course. 4. How is Russia doing? Badly. 5. How are developing countries doing? Brazil, India, Nigeria? Growing a bit faster than the UK but still surprising small in view of their large populations. Not a disaster (yet?)
The low percentage of over 80s in developing countries is key to the low death rate from Covid 19 in Brazil, India and Nigeria
Starmer is very good - and frankly Raab does not give confidence
Looks like BigG could vote Labour again for the first time since Blair
At times you are just plain silly.
I support HMG but I am not sycophant and will credit responsible opposition, and right now it is needed and is a refreshing change from the Corbyn toxic year
I am not voting labour
If the government does not extend the transition period though? I can certainly see you at least voting LD
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
I was an early Orange customer in 1998. £30 a month that included I think 60 minutes to landlines or Orange. SMS 10p each. Mobile data had to wait until I think 2003
I had something similar, go over the 60 minutes allowance and it got really expensive, 50p/minute or the like :-)
As for the internet, I think I managed a mobile dialup connection once at 0.01mbit. Nowadays 100mbit is routine, with 1000+ coming soon.
But my facebook feed is full with "proof" of this.
I wonder how widely this will be shared by those lefty places that were pushing the dodgy conspiracy in the first place.
To be fair, this article just says that O'Connell claims to have evidence but hasn't shared it yet, meaning that Full Fact can't verify the claims. So there's nothing there to contradict the idea that the "proof" on FU's is correct- maybe somebody else has independently investigated what O'Connell said and found evidence.
That's not to say that is the case- but it's misleading to imply that this article refutes anybody claiming to have evidence.
Come off it. If the claim is that these are fake accounts where is the evidence?
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Nah, it's a simple example of the tyranny of decimal. If we were used to giving numbers in binary, or hexadecimal, then the target might easily have been 65,536 in decimal notation.
I look at some key groups. 1. How are major European countries doing? Growth rate slowing. Italy, Spain and Germany doing better than UK and France. 2. How is Sweden doing with its more lax policy? It's doing OK. Growth rate slightly less than UK and France. 3. How is US doing? Similar to UK but much larger of course. 4. How is Russia doing? Badly. 5. How are developing countries doing? Brazil, India, Nigeria? Growing a bit faster than the UK but still surprising small in view of their large populations. Not a disaster (yet?)
The low percentage of over 80s in developing countries is key to the low death rate from Covid 19 in Brazil, India and Nigeria
You're at it again. It is too early to know if the high risk in the over 80's group is due to actual age or due to the health condition of over 80's. If it is the latter than the poor health in the over 65s in India etc. will mean that they are in a high risk group.
Yes but all the evidence and death rates point to the former at the moment
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
No.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
The hope around mass antibody testing. Yes, I remember that. Given the problems I wonder if this will be rather subsumed now by the efforts for a vaccine?
Well other countries are doing it, but it is by sending samples back to a lab. The UK are, but again not at the scale of Germany. Nobody has the community kits that are accurate.
However, it does seem like the focus has shifted away from identifying those who have had it, so they can be released back into the world. Rather scientists wanting to see this data as a very important piece of the overall puzzle.
The UK again shouldn't be too slow, otherwise we will still be guessing about level of immunity, for when a second wave comes.
A point I find fascinating is on the vaccine testing. The crux trial requires both groups, vaccine and placebo, to be exposed to the virus as they go about their normal lives. This will be far more efficient if done while the virus is rampant and there is no lockdown. If it takes place during lockdown with the virus squashed right down, it will take an eternity to get sufficient results to base a conclusion on. So do we lift the lockdown and let the virus rip again in order to facilitate the test and advance the vaccine delivery? Or test it in another country maybe? One outside the developed world even?
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
No.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
Can you imagine the shitstorm in the media if the government relaxes PPE standards?
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
The hope around mass antibody testing. Yes, I remember that. Given the problems I wonder if this will be rather subsumed now by the efforts for a vaccine?
Well other countries are doing it, but it is by sending samples back to a lab. The UK are, but again not at the scale of Germany. Nobody has the community kits that are accurate.
However, it does seem like the focus has shifted away from identifying those who have had it, so they can be released back into the world. Rather scientists wanting to see this data as a very important piece of the overall puzzle.
The UK again shouldn't be too slow, otherwise we will still be guessing about level of immunity, for when a second wave comes.
A point I find fascinating is on the vaccine testing. The crux trial requires both groups, vaccine and placebo, to be exposed to the virus as they go about their normal lives. This will be far more efficient if done while the virus is rampant and there is no lockdown. If it takes place during lockdown with the virus squashed right down, it will take an eternity to get sufficient results to base a conclusion on. So do we lift the lockdown and let the virus rip again in order to facilitate the test and advance the vaccine delivery? Or test it in another country maybe? One outside the developed world even?
Careful...didn't a France minister or government scientist claim that was what we should be doing....
But more seriously, yes I believe this is a huge problem and why Ebola vaccines weren't completed, because by the time they got it all together, Ebola had burned itself out.
Starmer is very good - and frankly Raab does not give confidence
Looks like BigG could vote Labour again for the first time since Blair
At times you are just plain silly.
I support HMG but I am not sycophant and will credit responsible opposition, and right now it is needed and is a refreshing change from the Corbyn toxic year
I am not voting labour
If the government does not extend the transition period though? I can certainly see you at least voting LD
Just stop it.
I am loyal to HMG and will be voting accordingly for as long as I am still able to
My only caveat is that if Boris suddenly became a right wing devotee, or mirrored that idiot Trump, then I would not support him under any circumstances
I look at some key groups. 1. How are major European countries doing? Growth rate slowing. Italy, Spain and Germany doing better than UK and France. 2. How is Sweden doing with its more lax policy? It's doing OK. Growth rate slightly less than UK and France. 3. How is US doing? Similar to UK but much larger of course. 4. How is Russia doing? Badly. 5. How are developing countries doing? Brazil, India, Nigeria? Growing a bit faster than the UK but still surprising small in view of their large populations. Not a disaster (yet?)
The low percentage of over 80s in developing countries is key to the low death rate from Covid 19 in Brazil, India and Nigeria
You're at it again. It is too early to know if the high risk in the over 80's group is due to actual age or due to the health condition of over 80's. If it is the latter than the poor health in the over 65s in India etc. will mean that they are in a high risk group.
Yes but all the evidence and death rates point to the former at the moment
Can you point me to your evidence sources? The death rates in the developed world are poor enough, in the developing world we really have no idea at the momen of how wide spread it is and how many deaths there ghave been.
The government’s main problem is that most of its members are just not up to the job. Sunak may be - we’ll see how he handles the sftermath of the crisis - but as hard as they sre undoubtedly trying most others aren’t. You would not put people like Hancock, Raab, Williamson or Patel anywhere near a crisis like this if you didn’t have to, or a PM like Johnson for that matter. I have no doubt thry are doing the best they can and working incredibly hard, but they are not first-rate operators. That, though, is the nature of democratic politics. You have to get very lucky to have the right people in thecright olace at the right time when a crisis like this breaks.
It is perhaps worth reflecting that in 1939 the War Cabinet consisted of these luminaries:
Neville Chamberlain – Prime Minister and Leader of the House of Commons Sir Samuel Hoare – Lord Privy Seal (previously Sacked over the Hoare-Laval pact) Sir John Simon – Chancellor of the Exchequer (a former Liberal described by his own friends as a corrupt, dishonest and treacherous slimeball) Lord Halifax – Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Leslie Hore-Belisha – Secretary of State for War (spent most of his time trying to get all his top generals sacked) Sir Kingsley Wood – Secretary of State for Air (opposed to the idea of bombing Germany’s industrial centres, although ironically he was arguably right about that) Winston Churchill – First Lord of the Admiralty (unstable and racist adventurer who had just happened to be right about Hitler) Lord Chatfield – Minister for Coordination of Defence (former admiral who believed the key weapon of war was the battleship, supported by cruisers) Lord Hankey – Minister without Portfolio (former Civil Servant who had advised Lloyd George).
What a bunch of luminaries, eh?
I like your description of Sir John Simon. Years ago I was involved in a case where the central figure was a man of whom it was said: “even his best friends don’t like him”.
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
No.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
Can you imagine the shitstorm in the media if the government relaxes PPE standards?
I don't need to, I can see the shitstorm over the lack of it.
There was always going to be a shitstorm either way about this once Macron started stealing supplies to save his own worthless skin.
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
We are in the sort of situation where you need to start several plans in parallel because the consequences of choosing the wrong one and it not working are severe.
It's the same with the PPE and joining the EU procurement schemes - we should be using every available avenue in the expectation that some will fail.
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
No.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
Bit of a daft question - we want PHE etc to focus on credible suppliers not just any old trader who have moaned to the Labour party.
If you want to feel really old post the details of your first mobile contract.
I signed up to Cellnet in August 1997 and for £40 a month all I got was 100 minutes to landlines and other Cellnet mobiles, no inclusive texts or data.
Calling someone on another network was 50p a minute.
Naz Shah might be better employed in asking Bradford council why they've only disbursed 32% of the funds they have to - well below the average of 50% and best in class of 93%.
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
The hope around mass antibody testing. Yes, I remember that. Given the problems I wonder if this will be rather subsumed now by the efforts for a vaccine?
Well other countries are doing it, but it is by sending samples back to a lab. The UK are, but again not at the scale of Germany. Nobody has the community kits that are accurate.
However, it does seem like the focus has shifted away from identifying those who have had it, so they can be released back into the world. Rather scientists wanting to see this data as a very important piece of the overall puzzle.
The UK again shouldn't be too slow, otherwise we will still be guessing about level of immunity, for when a second wave comes.
A point I find fascinating is on the vaccine testing. The crux trial requires both groups, vaccine and placebo, to be exposed to the virus as they go about their normal lives. This will be far more efficient if done while the virus is rampant and there is no lockdown. If it takes place during lockdown with the virus squashed right down, it will take an eternity to get sufficient results to base a conclusion on. So do we lift the lockdown and let the virus rip again in order to facilitate the test and advance the vaccine delivery? Or test it in another country maybe? One outside the developed world even?
You can use some clever tricks to sample from the high risk groups. E.g. Negative subjects who are isolating with a positive partner, or health workers who are exposed every day to the virus.
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
No.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
Bit of a daft question - we want PHE etc to focus on credible suppliers not just any old trader who have moaned to the Labour party.
Whether it's daft or not, and it would have been better if that hadn't been the situation, that's the question the government seems to be faced with.
Starmer seems a bit naive wrt to quality and standards for medical equipment.
Even if you accept Raab's claims, here is a question he hasn't considered:
Which is better, potentially substandard PPE or none at all?
You want to waste taxpayers money and time interfacing with substandard suppliers to get 10 pairs of dodgy gloves ?
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
No.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
Can you imagine the shitstorm in the media if the government relaxes PPE standards?
I can imagine the shitstorm in the..... hospitals.
Might as well issue the gloves they give to people who makes sandwiches - they are *supposed* to be a 100% barrier.
Whatever your political persuasion, we all win if there is a competent opposition because it forces the government to up its game. We have got so used to there not being one I suspect many of us have forgotten this simple truth. But it's back and the government will need to respond. That is good news for the country.
Agreed. A good Opposition will mean the government is forced to up its game.
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
We are in the sort of situation where you need to start several plans in parallel because the consequences of choosing the wrong one and it not working are severe.
It's the same with the PPE and joining the EU procurement schemes - we should be using every available avenue in the expectation that some will fail.
Is it worth dealing with anyone apart from actual manufacturers? That is a more key question.
I can get you a list of CMOTD's who'll promise you anything you want. And based on your request will start phoning all the other CMOTD's with a request for what you wanted. Plus profit....
I look at some key groups. 1. How are major European countries doing? Growth rate slowing. Italy, Spain and Germany doing better than UK and France. 2. How is Sweden doing with its more lax policy? It's doing OK. Growth rate slightly less than UK and France. 3. How is US doing? Similar to UK but much larger of course. 4. How is Russia doing? Badly. 5. How are developing countries doing? Brazil, India, Nigeria? Growing a bit faster than the UK but still surprising small in view of their large populations. Not a disaster (yet?)
The low percentage of over 80s in developing countries is key to the low death rate from Covid 19 in Brazil, India and Nigeria
You're at it again. It is too early to know if the high risk in the over 80's group is due to actual age or due to the health condition of over 80's. If it is the latter than the poor health in the over 65s in India etc. will mean that they are in a high risk group.
Yes but all the evidence and death rates point to the former at the moment
Can you point me to your evidence sources? The death rates in the developed world are poor enough, in the developing world we really have no idea at the momen of how wide spread it is and how many deaths there ghave been.
India, Nigeria and Brazil all have death rates below the global average of 22.9 at the moment.
The highest death rates are all from countries in western Europe and from the USA
What a refreshing change - Starmer giving Raab a deservedly hard time - asking simple factual questions and following up. Raab just said 69 NHS deaths....which seems low. We've got an effective LotO - hurrah!
"And I don't have the number for care home staff". Which pretty well sums up the attitude towards social care during this pandemic.
If you want to feel really old post the details of your first mobile contract.
I signed up to Cellnet in August 1997 and for £40 a month all I got was 100 minutes to landlines and other Cellnet mobiles, no inclusive texts or data.
Calling someone on another network was 50p a minute.
Oh god, yes I remember when you had to pay per text. Always checking you hadn't exceeded the number of characters for a single text, so you didn't get charged for 2, because you had been too verbose.
Suppose you can tell the kids, it was like twitter, but they charged you per tweet....in fact, that's a great idea.
Shame. Assume we missed a probing, enlightening zinger as opposed to a pitty patty 'Does the rh gentleman agree that this government is pure dead brilliant' effort.
No you have to do much more than Union grandstanding and virtue signalling to win. Yes he listened to the answer and could change tack accordingly, unlike the previous 2 Labour leaders but that is where the improvement ends. The content from the opposition is the same. It comes from a Union Public Sector standpoint, if you stand outside those parameters the appeal is limited to nothing.
What a refreshing change - Starmer giving Raab a deservedly hard time - asking simple factual questions and following up. Raab just said 69 NHS deaths....which seems low. We've got an effective LotO - hurrah!
Yes, without being loud, aggressive or vicious in the way Corbyn (or indeed Miliband and Cameron) often could be, he's probing very effectively and he's winning this exchange easily so far. Perhaps the atmosphere is different, but his calmness and focus both come across well.
Raab is also keeping calm but he's also stammering and waffling in response.
Rather like Hancock, he struggles to think beyond the government line of the day.
Starmer is very good - and frankly Raab does not give confidence
Looks like BigG could vote Labour again for the first time since Blair
At times you are just plain silly.
I support HMG but I am not sycophant and will credit responsible opposition, and right now it is needed and is a refreshing change from the Corbyn toxic year
I am not voting labour
If the government does not extend the transition period though? I can certainly see you at least voting LD
Just stop it.
I am loyal to HMG and will be voting accordingly for as long as I am still able to
My only caveat is that if Boris suddenly became a right wing devotee, or mirrored that idiot Trump, then I would not support him under any circumstances
Judge Trump on what he does not says. Idiot he certainly isn't. The alternative was far worse.
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Isn't it about organising the car parks for testing now ?
We have 533 constituencies in England. One large car park per constituency broadly with a couple of hundred swabs. Some of the London constituencies can be amalgamated, perhaps other inner city ones too with some large constituencies having a couple of small sites (Cumbria ?) but that gives a rough starter for ten. Have a nurse doing the tests and a small number of squaddies at each one to police it all, then at the end of each shift drive the samples back to the labs which are obviously more spread out. It's not going to be quite that simple but I'd expect that to be a rough basis..
Yes. I can't get my head around that. How hard can it be for a few civil servants to get on Google Maps and find some car parks, ring the owners and say we are having it, and send the army to tape them off and put down a hut.
That really shouldn't take weeks.
The track and trace and logistics of sample management are more complex though
A return to track and trace is a long way off. They can't even do simple demand management to get the best out of what they have at the moment.
Hancock said yesterday testing capacity was ahead of the target trajectory.
Yes - "capacity". But how to verify? This could be his escape hatch.
Well at best it buys him say a weeks breathing room. If he claims 100k capacity at the end of April and by the end of the first week of May they are still only doing say 30,000 tests, everybody will call total BS.
The consensus seems to be that after 5 years of toxic Corbynism labour have now acquired a leader in Starmer who will hold HMG to account and the shear relief Corbyn is but a distant memory is a real positive
Of course Starmer has lots of problems within his own party to address, but he does look as if he has managed to improve labour's image, but these are very early days
HMG is missing Boris and maybe his return will re-energise HMG in the coming difficult months
Hancock said yesterday testing capacity was ahead of the target trajectory.
Yes - "capacity". But how to verify? This could be his escape hatch.
Well at best it buys him say a weeks breathing room. If he claims 100k capacity at the end of April and by the end of the first week of May they are still only doing say 30,000 tests, everybody will call total BS.
Agreed, and it has to be close for him to pull that off, like 85-90k actual tests.
I love telling my friends kids about the days of dial up internet. They think I am telling a story akin to coming across a unicorn in the woods.
I was using dial up for about 10 years from 1995 to 2005 IIRC.
1995 was very early to be on the internet.
A lot of universities were using it from 1992, 1993. We had a Macintosh Performa 630 at the time: it had the same basic operating system that's used on Apple laptops today like the Macbook Air.
my company had a website in 1995 with a horrifyingly massive picture of me that took about 2 minutes to load - people were still angry that the web was being used by businesses and selling stuff via it was a betrayal of its purpose.
I did my undergrad at Imperial between 1994-97, and we had a "Communication Skills in Science" module during season '95-'96, where we got to learn how to use the internet and make simple code in HTML
In 91, I looked at participating in a research project about using hypertext protocols over the internet...
I remember the change in email addresses from fred@uk.blah.wherever to fred@wherever.blah.uk; anyone who has had to wrestle with sendmail should realise it had to be complex to deal with hundreds of different protocols.
Starmer is very good - and frankly Raab does not give confidence
Looks like BigG could vote Labour again for the first time since Blair
At times you are just plain silly.
I support HMG but I am not sycophant and will credit responsible opposition, and right now it is needed and is a refreshing change from the Corbyn toxic year
I am not voting labour
If the government does not extend the transition period though? I can certainly see you at least voting LD
Just stop it.
I am loyal to HMG and will be voting accordingly for as long as I am still able to
My only caveat is that if Boris suddenly became a right wing devotee, or mirrored that idiot Trump, then I would not support him under any circumstances
Judge Trump on what he does not says. Idiot he certainly isn't. The alternative was far worse.
Trump is a disaster for the US and the rest of us. He must go
Whatever your political persuasion, we all win if there is a competent opposition because it forces the government to up its game. We have got so used to there not being one I suspect many of us have forgotten this simple truth. But it's back and the government will need to respond. That is good news for the country.
He's done nothing for most of this crisis except bang on about when the lockdown will end. Much later than everyone else he finally seems to have realised PPE is a problem and started complaining about that. It's frankly pathetic.
Rather, he has been 'banging on' about the plans for ending lockdown. Which are still opaque.
Hancock said yesterday testing capacity was ahead of the target trajectory.
Yes - "capacity". But how to verify? This could be his escape hatch.
Well at best it buys him say a weeks breathing room. If he claims 100k capacity at the end of April and by the end of the first week of May they are still only doing say 30,000 tests, everybody will call total BS.
Agreed, and it has to be close for him to pull that off, like 85-90k actual tests.
Hancock will be fine if they really start doing that many tests, only the most partisan will be complaining he missed target, as that it basically German levels of testing.
I am not confident he stands much of a chance though, given how long it has taken to roll out 26 drive through centres and they are only promising 50.
Hancock said yesterday testing capacity was ahead of the target trajectory.
Yes - "capacity". But how to verify? This could be his escape hatch.
Well at best it buys him say a weeks breathing room. If he claims 100k capacity at the end of April and by the end of the first week of May they are still only doing say 30,000 tests, everybody will call total BS.
Agreed, and it has to be close for him to pull that off, like 85-90k actual tests.
Hancock will be fine if they really start doing that many tests, only the most partisan will be complaining he missed target, as that it basically German levels of testing.
I am not confident he stands much of a chance though, given how long it has taken to roll out 26 drive through centres and they are only promising 50.
Personally, I wonder how much energy is being wasted on this target. It seems to me they are going to be testing for testing's sake... and it won't actually be of that much benefit.
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
The hope around mass antibody testing. Yes, I remember that. Given the problems I wonder if this will be rather subsumed now by the efforts for a vaccine?
Well other countries are doing it, but it is by sending samples back to a lab. The UK are, but again not at the scale of Germany. Nobody has the community kits that are accurate.
However, it does seem like the focus has shifted away from identifying those who have had it, so they can be released back into the world. Rather scientists wanting to see this data as a very important piece of the overall puzzle.
The UK again shouldn't be too slow, otherwise we will still be guessing about level of immunity, for when a second wave comes.
A point I find fascinating is on the vaccine testing. The crux trial requires both groups, vaccine and placebo, to be exposed to the virus as they go about their normal lives. This will be far more efficient if done while the virus is rampant and there is no lockdown. If it takes place during lockdown with the virus squashed right down, it will take an eternity to get sufficient results to base a conclusion on. So do we lift the lockdown and let the virus rip again in order to facilitate the test and advance the vaccine delivery? Or test it in another country maybe? One outside the developed world even?
You can use some clever tricks to sample from the high risk groups. E.g. Negative subjects who are isolating with a positive partner, or health workers who are exposed every day to the virus.
Both of those sound smart ideas. My understanding, though, is that if the main trial takes place when the virus is in retreat it could slow it down by months.
And given a vaccine is the only viable way out of our predicament, this suggests a potentially tricky decision (ethically) lies ahead.
The consensus seems to be that after 5 years of toxic Corbynism labour have now acquired a leader in Starmer who will hold HMG to account and the shear relief Corbyn is but a distant memory is a real positive
Of course Starmer has lots of problems within his own party to address, but he does look as if he has managed to improve labour's image, but these are very early days
HMG is missing Boris and maybe his return will re-energise HMG in the coming difficult months
Is that the consensus? I seem to remember you posting this:
Starmer is very good - and frankly Raab does not give confidence
Looks like BigG could vote Labour again for the first time since Blair
At times you are just plain silly.
I support HMG but I am not sycophant and will credit responsible opposition, and right now it is needed and is a refreshing change from the Corbyn toxic year
I am not voting labour
If the government does not extend the transition period though? I can certainly see you at least voting LD
Just stop it.
I am loyal to HMG and will be voting accordingly for as long as I am still able to
My only caveat is that if Boris suddenly became a right wing devotee, or mirrored that idiot Trump, then I would not support him under any circumstances
Judge Trump on what he does not says. Idiot he certainly isn't. The alternative was far worse.
Trump is a disaster for the US and the rest of us. He must go
Disagree totally, some business acumen in politics get's results. We need it here rather than the standard Humanities graduates whose only working salary has been paid by taxpayers, or even worse lawyers. Do we want Obama/Clinton back no thanks the world suffered enough in the first carnation.
Hancock said yesterday testing capacity was ahead of the target trajectory.
Yes - "capacity". But how to verify? This could be his escape hatch.
Well at best it buys him say a weeks breathing room. If he claims 100k capacity at the end of April and by the end of the first week of May they are still only doing say 30,000 tests, everybody will call total BS.
Agreed, and it has to be close for him to pull that off, like 85-90k actual tests.
Hancock will be fine if they really start doing that many tests, only the most partisan will be complaining he missed target, as that it basically German levels of testing.
I am not confident he stands much of a chance though, given how long it has taken to roll out 26 drive through centres and they are only promising 50.
If that figure was 500 we might get to 100k tests per day. It's not the queues so much as the distance to travel for people who need to be tested.
Starmer is very good - and frankly Raab does not give confidence
Looks like BigG could vote Labour again for the first time since Blair
At times you are just plain silly.
I support HMG but I am not sycophant and will credit responsible opposition, and right now it is needed and is a refreshing change from the Corbyn toxic year
I am not voting labour
If the government does not extend the transition period though? I can certainly see you at least voting LD
Just stop it.
I am loyal to HMG and will be voting accordingly for as long as I am still able to
My only caveat is that if Boris suddenly became a right wing devotee, or mirrored that idiot Trump, then I would not support him under any circumstances
Judge Trump on what he does not says. Idiot he certainly isn't. The alternative was far worse.
Trump is a disaster for the US and the rest of us. He must go
Disagree totally, some business acumen in politics get's results. We need it here rather than the standard Humanities graduates whose only working salary has been paid by taxpayers, or even worse lawyers. Do we want Obama/Clinton back no thanks the world suffered enough in the first carnation.
You're milking that one, perhaps condense it a little?
I reckon the 100k a day number came from looking at Germany's testing capacity at that time which was about that.
Possibly. I recall Johnson at an early presser riffing around and tossing out both a 100k and a 250k number. Perhaps that was the origin. Loose talk from the boss feeds down to mega stress on subordinates and - ultimately - poor outcomes. A phenomenon I have certainly encountered many times. Bet we all have.
No the 250k was to do with antibody tests. Boris claim was they would get to 25k antigen tests and the rest antibody. And we now know the government had 9 different antibody test kits evaluated and all were busts.
And this is really where the issue have come from. The scientists were really sold on these antibody test kits and the government went along with it, with no real plan B. If it had worked out, nobody would be saying anything now.
The issue is that nobody in the world has a reliable large scale antibody test kit that can be done in the community, and now the UK stuck scrambling to try and devise a widespread antigen testing system on the fly.
We are in the sort of situation where you need to start several plans in parallel because the consequences of choosing the wrong one and it not working are severe.
It's the same with the PPE and joining the EU procurement schemes - we should be using every available avenue in the expectation that some will fail.
Is it worth dealing with anyone apart from actual manufacturers? That is a more key question.
I can get you a list of CMOTD's who'll promise you anything you want. And based on your request will start phoning all the other CMOTD's with a request for what you wanted. Plus profit....
Yes because if I've got a textiles plant, maybe I can produce gowns. If I'm injection moulding plastics, maybe I can produce thousands of visors. And so on. We already know existing suppliers cannot meet unprecedented demand. It may be HMG would need to pay for IP or raw materials but that can be dealt with as and when.
Comments
Just went down the Beth "Dumbo" Rigby anecdote route "some firms.."
I don't think I can bear the shame.
Listening to the procedure a front-line doctor in the US uses to ensure he doesn't get infected, you need everything to be 100% and be unbelievably careful. Double masked in the hospital. He talked about layers of clothes, and even when he gets home, he strips off in the garage and puts everything in the washing machine before taking off a mask / goggles and going into his house. The car gets disinfected, his shoes, the lot, every single time he goes to work.
* So many countries been ripped off with fake kit.
If there was a big PPE firm out there that could have contributed significant volume of the correct quality that the govt hadn't used - why couldn't Starmer name them ?
Peter Bone I thought did well !
As for the internet, I think I managed a mobile dialup connection once at 0.01mbit. Nowadays 100mbit is routine, with 1000+ coming soon.
But the alternative is no gloves at all.
Which is better?
That is the question to which there isn't an easy answer. I'm already planning an Ethics lesson on this in my head.
We'd need somebody like @Foxy to give us more information, but Raab's answer wasn't satisfactory.
But more seriously, yes I believe this is a huge problem and why Ebola vaccines weren't completed, because by the time they got it all together, Ebola had burned itself out.
I am loyal to HMG and will be voting accordingly for as long as I am still able to
My only caveat is that if Boris suddenly became a right wing devotee, or mirrored that idiot Trump, then I would not support him under any circumstances
There was always going to be a shitstorm either way about this once Macron started stealing supplies to save his own worthless skin.
It's the same with the PPE and joining the EU procurement schemes - we should be using every available avenue in the expectation that some will fail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_DynaTAC
Doubled as a kettlebell.
So what's your answer?
(Any comparison to kinabalu is coincidental!)
Might as well issue the gloves they give to people who makes sandwiches - they are *supposed* to be a 100% barrier.
I can get you a list of CMOTD's who'll promise you anything you want. And based on your request will start phoning all the other CMOTD's with a request for what you wanted. Plus profit....
The highest death rates are all from countries in western Europe and from the USA
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Which pretty well sums up the attitude towards social care during this pandemic.
You were luc....
Shame.
Assume we missed a probing, enlightening zinger as opposed to a pitty patty 'Does the rh gentleman agree that this government is pure dead brilliant' effort.
US health official warns of dangerous second wave
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52378845
They can't even do simple demand management to get the best out of what they have at the moment.
Of course Starmer has lots of problems within his own party to address, but he does look as if he has managed to improve labour's image, but these are very early days
HMG is missing Boris and maybe his return will re-energise HMG in the coming difficult months
https://twitter.com/MattTurner4L/status/1252335608334172161
I am not confident he stands much of a chance though, given how long it has taken to roll out 26 drive through centres and they are only promising 50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeztSCCX6VY
https://labour.org.uk/press/dozens-of-companies-offering-ppe-ignored-by-government-labour-reveals/
Can't find an Issa Exchange Ltd in Birmingham, but Companies House has:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08108605
Nature of business (SIC)
46520 - Wholesale of electronic and telecommunications equipment and parts
The second, NETWORK MEDICAL PRODUCTS LIMITED seems legitimate.
The third's business is: 82200 - Activities of call centres
82990 - Other business support service activities not elsewhere classified
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05970493
And given a vaccine is the only viable way out of our predicament, this suggests a potentially tricky decision (ethically) lies ahead.
B, C and D etc are Branson owned (partly).
Company A loses money.
B,C and D charge above the going rate for their services to A.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1252233125469384704
Btw what is cmotd?