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  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Socky said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I didn't get a choice as a kid, failing school fairly bright kid. Didn't stand a chance. Put your head out and stand out academically and you could look forward to your work being flushed, your school bag urinated in. Casual thumps and bumps in the hallway etc. Most of the teachers seemed intimidated by the parents of certain kids so they basically ran riot

    The school I attended was built as a secondary modern, but is located in a rural area in what is now a middle class dormitory village.

    In a slight echo of this year, I passed the mock 11-plus, but never got to take the final exam as the area went comprehensive. My best friend (who had pushy parents) got a place in the ex-grammar in the city centre. Somewhat ironically by the time we both left education seven years later, my school was getting far better exam results.
    I didn't mention it for sympathy. I was trying to make the point to people like Kinablu who thinks the answer is just fund the failing schools better with their differential funding model that it won't make a difference. Stick a kid in where there is a large percentage who think education is suspect and the kid is not going to do well
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120

    Monkeys said:

    Surely the EU will request an extension?

    UK spokesman claims even if EU requests one we will say 'no'.

    Deranged.
    It depends on the length of the extension, how many billions the EU would want, and how much we could be involved in bailing out the EU post covid 19

    Furthermore, how much EU law would inhibit our ability to mitigate the financial damage to our economy and the making of our own laws

    Answers to these questions will be needed to retain public opinion

    If Starmer tries to persuade the voters that paying more into the EU over transition and being restricted by EU law at the same time, he may find he has a big problem with them

    I think the concern goes back to 2010 when the Tories were still in post election negotiations with the Lib Dems & Alistair Darling attended the emergency Euro bailout meeting.

    Up to that pint I assume that all parties believed that as we were not in the Euro we would not be liable to bail it out, but some obscure text in the Lisbon Treaty was used & we got sucked in to the tune of £13 billion.

    As they say once bitten twice shy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Foxy said:

    Binoculars are a personal choice, particularly in relation to handling. I find 10×'s too wobbly, and so the additional magnification of little use. 8× is fine, and for the same diameter optic have better brightness in low light. Portability matters, you have to have them with you for seeing anything!

    I have a very nice pair of 8×32 Opticron Traveller. They are waterproof and fit a large pocket or handbag. Good optics for the price.

    There is a good birding app quiz to test your knowledge called BirdID by Nord University, with pictures and sound. It can be quite tough!

    A decent camera with a stabilised telephoto lens is a lot easier to manage, and gives better results, IMO. Plus you can get pictures...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Pulpstar said:

    Everyone out in my village for the weekly applause. Was driving back to my house when it happened so tooted my horn !

    Big turn out in my street. I guess the balmy evening weather helps. But lots of chatting over the edge of drives.

    Nice to see.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Daily Mail:

    "A charter flight containing 150 fruit and veg pickers from Romania landed in Stansted this afternoon - the first in a series of special arrivals designed to rescue Britain's harvest."

    Posted without comment on the death of irony.


  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I know i have mentioned this a number of times. Again a report from a hard hit ICU, busy, but looks organized and no sign of the sort of scenes we have seen in Italy, Spain or NY.

    https://youtu.be/rLM8oZONUrc
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    Pagan2 said:

    I was trying to make the point to people like Kinablu who thinks the answer is just fund the failing schools better with their differential funding model that it won't make a difference. Stick a kid in where there is a large percentage who think education is suspect and the kid is not going to do well

    I was supporting your point from the other direction. My ex-school has gone from a bit of a dump (when I started) to a really good reason to buy a house in the catchment area.

    Most of that change happened when I was there, with few teacher changes and no facility upgrades. The only difference was the mix of pupils who came through the door. That is the bit many people on the left don't understand.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
    Show us where it says and not or is a thing. I have looked for the text of the scheme online and not found it. Before you say other countries have ordered supplies independently as far as I can see that was all done before the scheme was proposed.

    We will see who gets ventilators first us or the eu scheme, same for ppe. Until either get deliveries difficult to judge who is right or wrong
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Socky said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I was trying to make the point to people like Kinablu who thinks the answer is just fund the failing schools better with their differential funding model that it won't make a difference. Stick a kid in where there is a large percentage who think education is suspect and the kid is not going to do well

    I was supporting your point from the other direction. My ex-school has gone from a bit of a dump (when I started) to a really good reason to buy a house in the catchment area.

    Most of that change happened when I was there, with few teacher changes and no facility upgrades. The only difference was the mix of pupils who came through the door. That is the bit many people on the left don't understand.
    Yes which was the point I made to kinablu....its not wealth its parental attitude to education that makes the real difference. He said he was only concerned about the wealth bit.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Pulpstar said:

    Everyone out in my village for the weekly applause. Was driving back to my house when it happened so tooted my horn !

    Big turn out in my street. I guess the balmy evening weather helps. But lots of chatting over the edge of drives.

    Nice to see.
    Lost track of time and missed it. Bugger.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    I've decided to stop clapping, I think the government needs to step up and give frontline staff a 10% bonus for the year (and next if this drags on).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    That spare testing capacity stuff is massive bullshit. There's hundreds of thousands of frontline NHS staff and other workers to test. Again, why isn't anyone asking this question. If we have the capability to do ~40k tests per day then why aren't we testing front line workers?

    There has to be a bottleneck somewhere, but it appears to be inordinately difficult to work out exactly where.
    Capacity means there's no bottleneck to reach the ~40k figure. It means if there was "need" to run 40k tests then it could be achieved. That's what I'm saying is bullshit. There is clearly a need to run as many tests as possible but we're stuck at ~20k.
    So the bottleneck must be getting the people and tests to meet up? If the tests are at "Testing Centres", then the issue is time and transport of people.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Floater said:

    John McDonnell causing trouble for Starmer

    Shocked I tell you

    The trots want their party back
    Calling everybody you disagree with Trots is a bit pathetic IMO

    With an attitude like that you could have got a well paid job in Lab HQ under McNichol
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Evening all :)

    A couple of random thoughts from me this evening:

    1) I use 8x50 binoculars to watch horse racing and they are perfectly fine - they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.

    2) I've two unrelated thoughts about the evolution and spread of Covid-19 which are probably nonsense but who knows? - first, I was ill with the worst cough I have ever had around New Year. I eventually got an appointment with a Doctor and got some antibiotics which helped but one morning I woke up colder than I have felt in my life (and I wasn't naked on a park bench - we've all been there). I was literally shivering but two hours sleep later and I was fine.

    Was it flu? Maybe but it was like no flu I have ever experienced. I am convinced other strains of this virus were around before what we know as Covid-19 appeared.

    The second thought is that the northern hemisphere enjoyed an anomalously mild winter. The US, Europe and Asia all enjoyed well above average temperatures - indeed all the cold seemed to be bottled up in Alaska.

    I'm no expert but I imagine severe cold doesn't help viruses spread and I just wonder if the milder conditions facilitated the spread of the virus from China. Had it been the usual severe winter would the virus have spread so far so fast?

    3) I also think we should thank road hauliers for keeping supplies on the road and the power generators for keeping the lights on. There are many heroes and heroines beyond the NHS who are keeping us going including local authorities and the private sector who have collaborated on an unprecedented scale.

    I have to say I have found an excellent home delivery service which would normally be providing wholesale supplies to the restaurant trade.

    Those who bemoan the failure of businesses have a point but capitalism is occasionally brutal - it is exploitative and merciless. Sudden and rapid change can mean opportunity for the flexible and fast moving. There will be those who do well out of this crisis - they will be the minority but they will be there.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    Speaking of being prepared to see people die before working with another country, it appears the actions of those EU countries that failed to support the Italians by refusing to send them medical equipment might be guilty of such. The EU's apology to Italy seems like an acknowledgement.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    QT a million times better under this format. It’s like a different programme. I’d stopped watching but this is quite good. Can we keep it post corona?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    That spare testing capacity stuff is massive bullshit. There's hundreds of thousands of frontline NHS staff and other workers to test. Again, why isn't anyone asking this question. If we have the capability to do ~40k tests per day then why aren't we testing front line workers?

    There has to be a bottleneck somewhere, but it appears to be inordinately difficult to work out exactly where.
    Capacity means there's no bottleneck to reach the ~40k figure. It means if there was "need" to run 40k tests then it could be achieved. That's what I'm saying is bullshit. There is clearly a need to run as many tests as possible but we're stuck at ~20k.
    So the bottleneck must be getting the people and tests to meet up? If the tests are at "Testing Centres", then the issue is time and transport of people.
    Or more likely, Hancock was talking out of his arse.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    humbugger said:

    Speaking of being prepared to see people die before working with another country, it appears the actions of those EU countries that failed to support the Italians by refusing to send them medical equipment might be guilty of such. The EU's apology to Italy seems like an acknowledgement.

    Those words are wasted on the europhiles, they decry nationalism while at the same time being eu nationalists
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
    Show us where it says and not or is a thing. I have looked for the text of the scheme online and not found it. Before you say other countries have ordered supplies independently as far as I can see that was all done before the scheme was proposed.

    We will see who gets ventilators first us or the eu scheme, same for ppe. Until either get deliveries difficult to judge who is right or wrong
    The whole point of the EU is pooling resources. No way the UK would be allowed to join the scheme without becoming a net contributor.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    RobD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
    Show us where it says and not or is a thing. I have looked for the text of the scheme online and not found it. Before you say other countries have ordered supplies independently as far as I can see that was all done before the scheme was proposed.

    We will see who gets ventilators first us or the eu scheme, same for ppe. Until either get deliveries difficult to judge who is right or wrong
    The whole point of the EU is pooling resources. No way the UK would be allowed to join the scheme without becoming a net contributor.
    I can't honestly say for certain it is the case as haven't found the scheme details anywhere. I suspect however there is a clause saying countries will not bid against each other but use the agreement going forward else it would probably be a stupid scheme if you could hedge your bets by both being in it and bidding against it.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic

    Yes

    and when we finally add in Care home deaths we pass France to move to 3rd in the shittest outcome in Europe league table and to me looks more and more like we will end up with most deaths in Europe.

    I blame Jeremy Corbyn

    We have the 3rd biggest population in Europe so that would be about par
    So you think the Govt response is distinctly average.

    I will get back to you in 4 weeks.
    Do you really think that in 4 weeks time we will be able to assess how individual countries have performed in covid 19.

    It will be months, even years, before any real lessons will be obvious
    So in my books Germany, S Korea have handled this really well.

    Trumps handling has been appalling.

    We are far closer to which in our outcomes?

    You keep saying it's not easy. I agree why do you think Germany and S Korea appear to have found it much easier than the UK?
    The structure of the German diagnostics industry helps. The UK sector is fully rationalised with a few big players serving a monosonstic buyer and operating a reference lab structure. In Germany primary care physicians can choose their diagnostic service provider and a surprising number of them send them to their mate down the road who has a few bits of kit in his garage*. That’s a crazy system in normal times - but in this situation it gave them a network that could be scaled very quickly

    * I exaggerate for effect. But not much.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Whatever you think of Johnson's teams performance over the virus, they are being utter twats over this:

    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1250821284247867393

    That will be the IMF led by the charming French lady with ambitions for a senior role in the EU?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    'they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.'

    I learn a new euphemism every time I visit PB.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Charles said:

    Whatever you think of Johnson's teams performance over the virus, they are being utter twats over this:

    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1250821284247867393

    That will be the IMF led by the charming French lady with ambitions for a senior role in the EU?
    Can we offer them tony blair I feel the EU deserves him in a high position
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
    Show us where it says and not or is a thing. I have looked for the text of the scheme online and not found it. Before you say other countries have ordered supplies independently as far as I can see that was all done before the scheme was proposed.

    We will see who gets ventilators first us or the eu scheme, same for ppe. Until either get deliveries difficult to judge who is right or wrong
    On the two ventilator schemes, the UK one is set to begin deliveries of the updated design UK ones from next week, and then hundreds per week manufacturing after that. The EU scheme has gone back out to tender and isn't expected to begin deliveries until late June or July.

    On PPE neither scheme is able to deliver any time soon. The news today from Scotland is good, hopefully the rest of UK industry that is capable will do the same.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    That spare testing capacity stuff is massive bullshit. There's hundreds of thousands of frontline NHS staff and other workers to test. Again, why isn't anyone asking this question. If we have the capability to do ~40k tests per day then why aren't we testing front line workers?

    There has to be a bottleneck somewhere, but it appears to be inordinately difficult to work out exactly where.
    Capacity means there's no bottleneck to reach the ~40k figure. It means if there was "need" to run 40k tests then it could be achieved. That's what I'm saying is bullshit. There is clearly a need to run as many tests as possible but we're stuck at ~20k.
    So the bottleneck must be getting the people and tests to meet up? If the tests are at "Testing Centres", then the issue is time and transport of people.
    Or more likely, Hancock was talking out of his arse.
    Well someone will have given him the numbers. There’s a logistics issue somewhere.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    That spare testing capacity stuff is massive bullshit. There's hundreds of thousands of frontline NHS staff and other workers to test. Again, why isn't anyone asking this question. If we have the capability to do ~40k tests per day then why aren't we testing front line workers?

    There has to be a bottleneck somewhere, but it appears to be inordinately difficult to work out exactly where.
    Capacity means there's no bottleneck to reach the ~40k figure. It means if there was "need" to run 40k tests then it could be achieved. That's what I'm saying is bullshit. There is clearly a need to run as many tests as possible but we're stuck at ~20k.
    So the bottleneck must be getting the people and tests to meet up? If the tests are at "Testing Centres", then the issue is time and transport of people.
    Or more likely, Hancock was talking out of his arse.
    People (not me but still) criticise the interview technique of some radio presenters but this morning Hancock vs Nick Robinson was close to Jeremy Paxman's 12 questions which forever changed the way people looked at Michael Howard. And not in a good way.

    He (Hancock) totally blew it and imo his reputation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Who's leading the united UK government at the moment?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
    Show us where it says and not or is a thing. I have looked for the text of the scheme online and not found it. Before you say other countries have ordered supplies independently as far as I can see that was all done before the scheme was proposed.

    We will see who gets ventilators first us or the eu scheme, same for ppe. Until either get deliveries difficult to judge who is right or wrong
    On the two ventilator schemes, the UK one is set to begin deliveries of the updated design UK ones from next week, and then hundreds per week manufacturing after that. The EU scheme has gone back out to tender and isn't expected to begin deliveries until late June or July.

    On PPE neither scheme is able to deliver any time soon. The news today from Scotland is good, hopefully the rest of UK industry that is capable will do the same.
    My suspicion is we will get our stuff first. I am prepared to wait till products start shipping however before poking mr Meeks and going....see told you...nyah nyah
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic

    Yes

    and when we finally add in Care home deaths we pass France to move to 3rd in the shittest outcome in Europe league table and to me looks more and more like we will end up with most deaths in Europe.

    I blame Jeremy Corbyn

    We have the 3rd biggest population in Europe so that would be about par
    So you think the Govt response is distinctly average.

    I will get back to you in 4 weeks.
    Do you really think that in 4 weeks time we will be able to assess how individual countries have performed in covid 19.

    It will be months, even years, before any real lessons will be obvious
    So in my books Germany, S Korea have handled this really well.

    Trumps handling has been appalling.

    We are far closer to which in our outcomes?

    You keep saying it's not easy. I agree why do you think Germany and S Korea appear to have found it much easier than the UK?
    The structure of the German diagnostics industry helps. The UK sector is fully rationalised with a few big players serving a monosonstic buyer and operating a reference lab structure. In Germany primary care physicians can choose their diagnostic service provider and a surprising number of them send them to their mate down the road who has a few bits of kit in his garage*. That’s a crazy system in normal times - but in this situation it gave them a network that could be scaled very quickly

    * I exaggerate for effect. But not much.
    Maybe Charles but i think investment in healthcare is also relevant see attached.

    I found fig 3 interesting as well

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    Yes, the new commission is much weaker than the last one. Junker would not have had his back up against the wall like this and forced concessions out of the Netherlands much faster.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Here we go again...opinions on how the UK has performed all done with the benefit of hindsight.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic

    Yes

    and when we finally add in Care home deaths we pass France to move to 3rd in the shittest outcome in Europe league table and to me looks more and more like we will end up with most deaths in Europe.

    I blame Jeremy Corbyn

    We have the 3rd biggest population in Europe so that would be about par
    So you think the Govt response is distinctly average.

    I will get back to you in 4 weeks.
    Do you really think that in 4 weeks time we will be able to assess how individual countries have performed in covid 19.

    It will be months, even years, before any real lessons will be obvious
    So in my books Germany, S Korea have handled this really well.

    Trumps handling has been appalling.

    We are far closer to which in our outcomes?

    You keep saying it's not easy. I agree why do you think Germany and S Korea appear to have found it much easier than the UK?
    The structure of the German diagnostics industry helps. The UK sector is fully rationalised with a few big players serving a monopsonistic buyer and operating a reference lab structure. In Germany primary care physicians can choose their diagnostic service provider and a surprising number of them send them to their mate down the road who has a few bits of kit in his garage*. That’s a crazy system in normal times - but in this situation it gave them a network that could be scaled very quickly

    * I exaggerate for effect. But not much.
    Bit like... Apacor Ltd ?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Yes. Six months ago Ireland had a liberal minded centre right leader and a moderate LOTO, and we had a govt that seriously began each day not knowing if it would be in office by lunchtime, with a hopelessly hung Parliament, and an extreme left LOTO with interesting past views on international conflict.

    Whereas we now have a govt the biggest majority in 15 years led by a liberal minded centre right leader and a far more moderate LOTO, whereas Ireland is still in negotiations about a govt, in a hopelessly hung Dail, since Feb 8, with ministers not knowing if they are going to see the week out, with the likely future extreme left LOTO leading handily in the polls despite her party having a highly colourful past concerning international conflict.

    Funny old world.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Just donated to Captain Toms appeal 764k people donated an average of £20. Almost 15.3m raised

    What's his upper limit now, you think?
    Would be fantastic to get to £20m i said a few days ago £15m and he has passed that so who knows.

    What do you think Mark?
    I reckon it will keep going until his birthday. I can see it going to £20m. Was interesting how much it went up overnight - don't know how much of a story this is worldwide.....
    Yes I wonder what % of the £15m is from outside the UK
    Or from the likes of Crispin Odey. To whom such sums would be chicken feed.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic

    Yes

    and when we finally add in Care home deaths we pass France to move to 3rd in the shittest outcome in Europe league table and to me looks more and more like we will end up with most deaths in Europe.

    I blame Jeremy Corbyn

    We have the 3rd biggest population in Europe so that would be about par
    So you think the Govt response is distinctly average.

    I will get back to you in 4 weeks.
    Do you really think that in 4 weeks time we will be able to assess how individual countries have performed in covid 19.

    It will be months, even years, before any real lessons will be obvious
    So in my books Germany, S Korea have handled this really well.

    Trumps handling has been appalling.

    We are far closer to which in our outcomes?

    You keep saying it's not easy. I agree why do you think Germany and S Korea appear to have found it much easier than the UK?
    The structure of the German diagnostics industry helps. The UK sector is fully rationalised with a few big players serving a monopsonistic buyer and operating a reference lab structure. In Germany primary care physicians can choose their diagnostic service provider and a surprising number of them send them to their mate down the road who has a few bits of kit in his garage*. That’s a crazy system in normal times - but in this situation it gave them a network that could be scaled very quickly

    * I exaggerate for effect. But not much.
    Bit like... Apacor Ltd ?
    I think it highlights our problem, we have a hugely centralised beaurocracy. While that can be a plus when things tick along as normal my observation is that the more process you have the more delays you get when things occur for which there is no process. I suspect most of our acquistion is still trying to be driven through normal process where umpteen levels need to sign off and that is slowing us down.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    That spare testing capacity stuff is massive bullshit. There's hundreds of thousands of frontline NHS staff and other workers to test. Again, why isn't anyone asking this question. If we have the capability to do ~40k tests per day then why aren't we testing front line workers?

    There has to be a bottleneck somewhere, but it appears to be inordinately difficult to work out exactly where.
    Capacity means there's no bottleneck to reach the ~40k figure. It means if there was "need" to run 40k tests then it could be achieved. That's what I'm saying is bullshit. There is clearly a need to run as many tests as possible but we're stuck at ~20k.
    So the bottleneck must be getting the people and tests to meet up? If the tests are at "Testing Centres", then the issue is time and transport of people.
    Or more likely, Hancock was talking out of his arse.
    People (not me but still) criticise the interview technique of some radio presenters but this morning Hancock vs Nick Robinson was close to Jeremy Paxman's 12 questions which forever changed the way people looked at Michael Howard. And not in a good way.

    He (Hancock) totally blew it and imo his reputation.
    For what is happening in care homes, he’s already blown it as far as I’m concerned.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    The EU and Von Der Leyen in particular aren't having a good epidemic. The root cause however is the unwillingness of member states to support each other. The EU is a membership organisation and can only do what its members allow it to do.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    TOPPING said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Who's leading the united UK government at the moment?
    Larry.

    In and out of no 10 as he wishes.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    edited April 2020
    Charles said:

    Whatever you think of Johnson's teams performance over the virus, they are being utter twats over this:

    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1250821284247867393

    That will be the IMF led by the charming French lady with ambitions for a senior role in the EU?
    Bulgarian. Predecessor was French, now heads up the ECB.

    p.s. condolences for your father.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    The EU and Von Der Leyen in particular aren't having a good epidemic. The root cause however is the unwillingness of member states to support each other. The EU is a membership organisation and can only do what its members allow it to do.
    So you are saying the members when the chips are down aren't that interested in european solidarity as envisaged in the 5 presidents report....well paint me pink and call me betsy
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.
    Agreed.

    IIRC correctly, I think that the EU will need to know by 1 July whether an extension is acceptable to change EU law. It is going to present all sorts of problems re: budgets etc, but I suspect a no fault extension will eventually be agreed.

    However, as @Charles has consistently suggested, it will be done grudgingly to prevent the usual suspects from moaning. The previous administration lost all ability to govern when it willingly extended - this Govt. knows better.

    By the way, I wanted to thank you for the tip about Glass House, which I am currently reading (after ordering it about a year ago!). I'm sure you've already read it, but if not, Bad Blood about the Theranos scandal is also a riveting read. I do like a corporate investigation book - any more that anyone can recommend?

    Crash of the Titans is one of my favourites

    Barbarians at the Gate is a classic for a reason.

    Greed and Glory on Wall Street always makes startles me. Still very funny that the losers went on to found Blackstone while the winners lost all their money when Lehman crashed

    The Pride of Lucifer is more dense but I’ve always found interesting
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120
    edited April 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly
    likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.


    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    No. They keep overplaying a strong hand.

    Could’ve taken Cameron seriously. Didn’t, lost the referendum. Could’ve
    forced May’s deal Through on 29.3.19. by refusing any extension, ditto in April 19, didn’t, twisted they’d get something softer or Ref2, got PM Boris. Repeated the whole farce again with 31.10.19 deadline, twisted on Grieve, Bercow, Letwin, Corbyn, Swinson getting their act together so set 31.1.20 deadline. Got Boris with 80 seat majority. Now, here we go again.

    At every stage since Feb 16 they’ve gambled, and at each point we’ve ended further and further away from them than even N Farage’s wildest drunken fantasy could’ve hoped for four and a bit years ago.

    From their point of view an utter failure of strategy.
    The perfect Leaver riposte: blaming the EU for their own extremism.

    There are no circumstances, not even a pandemic, where Leavers would work with the EU. They would literally rather see people die.
    Like all people we work with people when it is to our advantage. It is not certain that working with the EU and joining their schemes would result in us being better off, there is a reasonable case that in fact we might be worse off as we are one of the only two european nations with large scale ventilator manufacturers.

    If staying out of the scheme means we can allocate what we need first then give surplus ventilators to european countries then I am fine with that. A governments job is to protect it's people first.
    Yet again. And not or.

    This is not difficult stuff. But Leavers are so wilfully determined not to work with the EU because they hate it so much, they refuse to see it.
    Show us where it says and not or is a thing. I have looked for the text of the scheme online and not found it. Before you say other countries have ordered supplies independently as far as I can see that was all done before the scheme was proposed.

    We will see who gets ventilators first us or the eu scheme, same for ppe. Until either get deliveries difficult to judge who is right or wrong
    On the two ventilator schemes, the UK one is set to begin deliveries of the updated design UK ones from next week, and then hundreds per week manufacturing after that. The EU scheme has gone back out to tender and isn't expected to begin deliveries until late June or July.

    On PPE neither scheme is able to deliver any time soon. The news today from Scotland is good, hopefully the rest of UK industry that is capable will do the same.
    My suspicion is we will get our stuff first. I am prepared to wait till products start shipping however before poking mr Meeks and going....see told you...nyah nyah

    I am assuming that the UK did not participate in the EU tender because they already had sufficient orders in the pipeline with China, Taiwan, Mexico etc.

    Do people think that because it's the EU it will be able to jump the queue?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    I know i have mentioned this a number of times. Again a report from a hard hit ICU, busy, but looks organized and no sign of the sort of scenes we have seen in Italy, Spain or NY.

    https://youtu.be/rLM8oZONUrc

    I found that really moving but I was surprised how few of the patients were prone. I thought that was pretty standard now.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Pagan2 said:

    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    The EU and Von Der Leyen in particular aren't having a good epidemic. The root cause however is the unwillingness of member states to support each other. The EU is a membership organisation and can only do what its members allow it to do.
    So you are saying the members when the chips are down aren't that interested in european solidarity as envisaged in the 5 presidents report....well paint me pink and call me betsy
    Could be. But the Italians certainly won't get solidarity from Brexit UK. They would be better sticking with the EU.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Charles said:

    Whatever you think of Johnson's teams performance over the virus, they are being utter twats over this:

    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1250821284247867393

    That will be the IMF led by the charming French lady with ambitions for a senior role in the EU?
    I think that you will find that she now has that position as head of the ECB. Pity it’s not being allowed to do anything useful.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    FF43 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    The EU and Von Der Leyen in particular aren't having a good epidemic. The root cause however is the unwillingness of member states to support each other. The EU is a membership organisation and can only do what its members allow it to do.
    So you are saying the members when the chips are down aren't that interested in european solidarity as envisaged in the 5 presidents report....well paint me pink and call me betsy
    Could be. But the Italians certainly won't get solidarity from Brexit UK. They would be better sticking with the EU.
    Because they got so much solidarity there, was it not the chinese and russians who gave them actual assistance rather than merely words?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    welshowl said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Yes. Six months ago Ireland had a liberal minded centre right leader and a moderate LOTO, and we had a govt that seriously began each day not knowing if it would be in office by lunchtime, with a hopelessly hung Parliament, and an extreme left LOTO with interesting past views on international conflict.

    Whereas we now have a govt the biggest majority in 15 years led by a liberal minded centre right leader and a far more moderate LOTO, whereas Ireland is still in negotiations about a govt, in a hopelessly hung Dail, since Feb 8, with ministers not knowing if they are going to see the week out, with the likely future extreme left LOTO leading handily in the polls despite her party having a highly colourful past concerning international conflict.

    Funny old world.
    By 'liberal minded centre right leader' do you mean 'hypocritical chancer, whose prime interest is his place in history"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    The EU and Von Der Leyen in particular aren't having a good epidemic. The root cause however is the unwillingness of member states to support each other. The EU is a membership organisation and can only do what its members allow it to do.
    No, Junker would never have stood for this. He would have got the French and Germans to sign up to a single plan and then imposed it on everyone else. The commission is a lot weaker now than it was last time.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A couple of random thoughts from me this evening:

    1) I use 8x50 binoculars to watch horse racing and they are perfectly fine - they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.

    2) I've two unrelated thoughts about the evolution and spread of Covid-19 which are probably nonsense but who knows? - first, I was ill with the worst cough I have ever had around New Year. I eventually got an appointment with a Doctor and got some antibiotics which helped but one morning I woke up colder than I have felt in my life (and I wasn't naked on a park bench - we've all been there). I was literally shivering but two hours sleep later and I was fine.

    Was it flu? Maybe but it was like no flu I have ever experienced. I am convinced other strains of this virus were around before what we know as Covid-19 appeared.

    The second thought is that the northern hemisphere enjoyed an anomalously mild winter. The US, Europe and Asia all enjoyed well above average temperatures - indeed all the cold seemed to be bottled up in Alaska.

    I'm no expert but I imagine severe cold doesn't help viruses spread and I just wonder if the milder conditions facilitated the spread of the virus from China. Had it been the usual severe winter would the virus have spread so far so fast?

    3) I also think we should thank road hauliers for keeping supplies on the road and the power generators for keeping the lights on. There are many heroes and heroines beyond the NHS who are keeping us going including local authorities and the private sector who have collaborated on an unprecedented scale.

    I have to say I have found an excellent home delivery service which would normally be providing wholesale supplies to the restaurant trade.

    Those who bemoan the failure of businesses have a point but capitalism is occasionally brutal - it is exploitative and merciless. Sudden and rapid change can mean opportunity for the flexible and fast moving. There will be those who do well out of this crisis - they will be the minority but they will be there.

    If you had flu symptoms in early January it is as good as certain not to be corona, unless you know someone you met had been in Wuhan. There really is no evidence to support that the virus was taking hold but undetected in Europe at that time. Infact there is good counter evidence. We know that it is highly contageous, but nevertheless the random testing done in the UK early to mid February turned up no cases of it (other than those with links to China or Italy).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    The EU and Von Der Leyen in particular aren't having a good epidemic. The root cause however is the unwillingness of member states to support each other. The EU is a membership organisation and can only do what its members allow it to do.
    No, Junker would never have stood for this. He would have got the French and Germans to sign up to a single plan and then imposed it on everyone else. The commission is a lot weaker now than it was last time.
    You say that like it is a bad thing, european governments are doing the right thing and looking after their own people first. Charity begins at home
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited April 2020
    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    welshowl said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Yes. Six months ago Ireland had a liberal minded centre right leader and a moderate LOTO, and we had a govt that seriously began each day not knowing if it would be in office by lunchtime, with a hopelessly hung Parliament, and an extreme left LOTO with interesting past views on international conflict.

    Whereas we now have a govt the biggest majority in 15 years led by a liberal minded centre right leader and a far more moderate LOTO, whereas Ireland is still in negotiations about a govt, in a hopelessly hung Dail, since Feb 8, with ministers not knowing if they are going to see the week out, with the likely future extreme left LOTO leading handily in the polls despite her party having a highly colourful past concerning international conflict.

    Funny old world.
    By 'liberal minded centre right leader' do you mean 'hypocritical chancer, whose prime interest is his place in history"
    Both, possibly.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    The spoof Emilie Oldknow account is suspended.

    Unlike actual person from Labour

    @Emilie_Oldknow
    Account suspended
    Twitter suspends accounts which violate the Twitter Rules
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Nigelb said:

    welshowl said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Yes. Six months ago Ireland had a liberal minded centre right leader and a moderate LOTO, and we had a govt that seriously began each day not knowing if it would be in office by lunchtime, with a hopelessly hung Parliament, and an extreme left LOTO with interesting past views on international conflict.

    Whereas we now have a govt the biggest majority in 15 years led by a liberal minded centre right leader and a far more moderate LOTO, whereas Ireland is still in negotiations about a govt, in a hopelessly hung Dail, since Feb 8, with ministers not knowing if they are going to see the week out, with the likely future extreme left LOTO leading handily in the polls despite her party having a highly colourful past concerning international conflict.

    Funny old world.
    By 'liberal minded centre right leader' do you mean 'hypocritical chancer, whose prime interest is his place in history"
    Both, possibly.
    more centre left though
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    I would say the UK negotiating position is infantile and irresponsible, rather than united.

    An observation. This government thinks absolutely the last people who should have a say in the trading relationship is anyone who actually trades. Did they ask them whether they wanted the "certainty" of scorched earth over the possibility of a workable trading relationship?

    Did they ask the people dealing with the Coronavirus that they want the focus to be diverted onto Brexit and away from the epidemic so they can act without EU regulation?

    The government takes us for fools.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    The spoof Emilie Oldknow account is suspended.

    Unlike actual person from Labour

    @Emilie_Oldknow
    Account suspended
    Twitter suspends accounts which violate the Twitter Rules

    Don't twitter rules require you to be hard left though?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    I would say the UK negotiating position is infantile and irresponsible, rather than united.

    An observation. This government thinks absolutely the last people who should have a say in the trading relationship is anyone who actually trades. Did they ask them whether they wanted the "certainty" of scorched earth over the possibility of a workable trading relationship?

    Did they ask the people dealing with the Coronavirus that they want the focus to be diverted onto Brexit and away from the epidemic so they can act without EU regulation?

    The government takes us for fools.
    Our trade with the EU makes up about 5% of total trade, 85% being internal trade. 100% of traders however are constrained by eu laws....sorry I dont think the 1 in 20 traders that do eu trade here are in a strong position
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited April 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!

    I’m not sure I agree he was effective either. His bombast was a key reason for the failure of Cameron’s negotiations, and all that entailed. He dithered over the financial crisis and was rescued by Draghi. His policy on immigration may politely be characterised as a fucking disaster. His appointmentsof his inept drinking cronies to key positions was a catastrophe (with the honourable exception of Barnier, who was dubiously appointed but did pretty well).

    What did he achieve, clearly and unambiguously? I would have said he left Europe weaker, diminished, divided (except over Brexit) and humiliated.

    And we are seeing the results of that.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    welshowl said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Yes. Six months ago Ireland had a liberal minded centre right leader and a moderate LOTO, and we had a govt that seriously began each day not knowing if it would be in office by lunchtime, with a hopelessly hung Parliament, and an extreme left LOTO with interesting past views on international conflict.

    Whereas we now have a govt the biggest majority in 15 years led by a liberal minded centre right leader and a far more moderate LOTO, whereas Ireland is still in negotiations about a govt, in a hopelessly hung Dail, since Feb 8, with ministers not knowing if they are going to see the week out, with the likely future extreme left LOTO leading handily in the polls despite her party having a highly colourful past concerning international conflict.

    Funny old world.
    By 'liberal minded centre right leader' do you mean 'hypocritical chancer, whose prime interest is his place in history"
    I don’t think the two descriptions are necessarily mutually exclusive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    welshowl said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    Yes. Six months ago Ireland had a liberal minded centre right leader and a moderate LOTO, and we had a govt that seriously began each day not knowing if it would be in office by lunchtime, with a hopelessly hung Parliament, and an extreme left LOTO with interesting past views on international conflict.

    Whereas we now have a govt the biggest majority in 15 years led by a liberal minded centre right leader and a far more moderate LOTO, whereas Ireland is still in negotiations about a govt, in a hopelessly hung Dail, since Feb 8, with ministers not knowing if they are going to see the week out, with the likely future extreme left LOTO leading handily in the polls despite her party having a highly colourful past concerning international conflict.

    Funny old world.
    By 'liberal minded centre right leader' do you mean 'hypocritical chancer, whose prime interest is his place in history"
    That's one way to describe Varadkar, I suppose.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Domino's Pizza has temporarily axed some of its most popular lines due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    The major changes to the menu, including taking away ham and pineapple pizza and some garlic breads, are designed to make everything safer for staff and customers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Domino's Pizza has temporarily axed some of its most popular lines due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    The major changes to the menu, including taking away ham and pineapple pizza and some garlic breads, are designed to make everything safer for staff and customers.

    Scandalous, outrageous!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    RobD said:

    Domino's Pizza has temporarily axed some of its most popular lines due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    The major changes to the menu, including taking away ham and pineapple pizza and some garlic breads, are designed to make everything safer for staff and customers.

    Scandalous, outrageous!
    As long as I can still order spicy aardvark as a topping...
    https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/8xzxdk/scottish-restaurant-investigated-for-selling-spicy-aardvark-pizza
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    It can be. e.g.:

    https://www.gallaudet.edu/tutorial-and-instructional-programs/english-center/the-process-and-type-of-writing/journalism/what-libel
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eristdoof said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A couple of random thoughts from me this evening:

    1) I use 8x50 binoculars to watch horse racing and they are perfectly fine - they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.

    2) I've two unrelated thoughts about the evolution and spread of Covid-19 which are probably nonsense but who knows? - first, I was ill with the worst cough I have ever had around New Year. I eventually got an appointment with a Doctor and got some antibiotics which helped but one morning I woke up colder than I have felt in my life (and I wasn't naked on a park bench - we've all been there). I was literally shivering but two hours sleep later and I was fine.

    Was it flu? Maybe but it was like no flu I have ever experienced. I am convinced other strains of this virus were around before what we know as Covid-19 appeared.

    The second thought is that the northern hemisphere enjoyed an anomalously mild winter. The US, Europe and Asia all enjoyed well above average temperatures - indeed all the cold seemed to be bottled up in Alaska.

    I'm no expert but I imagine severe cold doesn't help viruses spread and I just wonder if the milder conditions facilitated the spread of the virus from China. Had it been the usual severe winter would the virus have spread so far so fast?

    3) I also think we should thank road hauliers for keeping supplies on the road and the power generators for keeping the lights on. There are many heroes and heroines beyond the NHS who are keeping us going including local authorities and the private sector who have collaborated on an unprecedented scale.

    I have to say I have found an excellent home delivery service which would normally be providing wholesale supplies to the restaurant trade.

    Those who bemoan the failure of businesses have a point but capitalism is occasionally brutal - it is exploitative and merciless. Sudden and rapid change can mean opportunity for the flexible and fast moving. There will be those who do well out of this crisis - they will be the minority but they will be there.

    If you had flu symptoms in early January it is as good as certain not to be corona, unless you know someone you met had been in Wuhan. There really is no evidence to support that the virus was taking hold but undetected in Europe at that time. Infact there is good counter evidence. We know that it is highly contageous, but nevertheless the random testing done in the UK early to mid February turned up no cases of it (other than those with links to China or Italy).
    Why does this site attract so many who had the particularly troublesome winter cold that was doing the rounds after Xmas, and now think they had the a Corona virus?
  • RobD said:

    Domino's Pizza has temporarily axed some of its most popular lines due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    The major changes to the menu, including taking away ham and pineapple pizza and some garlic breads, are designed to make everything safer for staff and customers.

    Scandalous, outrageous!
    My wife and I went on an excursion to Dubrovnik from our cruise ship with the founder.

    A charming man
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Domino's Pizza has temporarily axed some of its most popular lines due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    The major changes to the menu, including taking away ham and pineapple pizza and some garlic breads, are designed to make everything safer for staff and customers.

    So it’s not all bad news then?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    Well not being a lawyer I am happy to express an opinion and feel safe in that but not happy to express it as a statement of fact
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    eristdoof said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A couple of random thoughts from me this evening:

    1) I use 8x50 binoculars to watch horse racing and they are perfectly fine - they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.

    2) I've two unrelated thoughts about the evolution and spread of Covid-19 which are probably nonsense but who knows? - first, I was ill with the worst cough I have ever had around New Year. I eventually got an appointment with a Doctor and got some antibiotics which helped but one morning I woke up colder than I have felt in my life (and I wasn't naked on a park bench - we've all been there). I was literally shivering but two hours sleep later and I was fine.

    Was it flu? Maybe but it was like no flu I have ever experienced. I am convinced other strains of this virus were around before what we know as Covid-19 appeared.

    The second thought is that the northern hemisphere enjoyed an anomalously mild winter. The US, Europe and Asia all enjoyed well above average temperatures - indeed all the cold seemed to be bottled up in Alaska.

    I'm no expert but I imagine severe cold doesn't help viruses spread and I just wonder if the milder conditions facilitated the spread of the virus from China. Had it been the usual severe winter would the virus have spread so far so fast?

    3) I also think we should thank road hauliers for keeping supplies on the road and the power generators for keeping the lights on. There are many heroes and heroines beyond the NHS who are keeping us going including local authorities and the private sector who have collaborated on an unprecedented scale.

    I have to say I have found an excellent home delivery service which would normally be providing wholesale supplies to the restaurant trade.

    Those who bemoan the failure of businesses have a point but capitalism is occasionally brutal - it is exploitative and merciless. Sudden and rapid change can mean opportunity for the flexible and fast moving. There will be those who do well out of this crisis - they will be the minority but they will be there.

    If you had flu symptoms in early January it is as good as certain not to be corona, unless you know someone you met had been in Wuhan. There really is no evidence to support that the virus was taking hold but undetected in Europe at that time. Infact there is good counter evidence. We know that it is highly contageous, but nevertheless the random testing done in the UK early to mid February turned up no cases of it (other than those with links to China or Italy).
    https://vitals.lifehacker.com/sorry-we-did-not-all-get-and-recover-from-covid-19-thi-1842798877
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Domino's Pizza has temporarily axed some of its most popular lines due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    The major changes to the menu, including taking away ham and pineapple pizza and some garlic breads, are designed to make everything safer for staff and customers.

    Scandalous, outrageous!
    My wife and I went on an excursion to Dubrovnik from our cruise ship with the founder.

    A charming man
    I am confident that he would have the same reaction as me. :D
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    eristdoof said:


    If you had flu symptoms in early January it is as good as certain not to be corona, unless you know someone you met had been in Wuhan. There really is no evidence to support that the virus was taking hold but undetected in Europe at that time. Infact there is good counter evidence. We know that it is highly contageous, but nevertheless the random testing done in the UK early to mid February turned up no cases of it (other than those with links to China or Italy).

    I'm not suggesting I had coronavirus in January - indeed, the fact what I had responded to antibiotics suggest it couldn't have been coronavirus.

    I think what I'm trying to say is there were a number of flu strains around and I've seen it stated Covid-19 has itself mutated into three strands so I'm simply suggesting it's been a strange winter for flu-like illnesses culminating in Covid-19.

    I'm also suggesting the very mild northern hemisphere winter facilitated and indeed encouraged the spread and mutation of these viruses.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Once again on Channel 4 we are seeing police failings.

    To PC to police Traveller crime.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    DavidL said:

    I know i have mentioned this a number of times. Again a report from a hard hit ICU, busy, but looks organized and no sign of the sort of scenes we have seen in Italy, Spain or NY.

    https://youtu.be/rLM8oZONUrc

    I found that really moving but I was surprised how few of the patients were prone. I thought that was pretty standard now.
    Ours are proned for 16 hours overnight, then 8 hours supine during the daytime. This is required for various procedures, imaging etc. If you film during the day, many will be supine.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    Yes it is.

    Unless you can justify it (prove it true), the burden of proof being on you and comedy youtube clips not being enough to get you over the line.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335
    Just as a note. Confirmed export of cases outside China into the wider region was mid January
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic

    Yes

    and when we finally add in Care home deaths we pass France to move to 3rd in the shittest outcome in Europe league table and to me looks more and more like we will end up with most deaths in Europe.

    I blame Jeremy Corbyn

    We have the 3rd biggest population in Europe so that would be about par
    So you think the Govt response is distinctly average.

    I will get back to you in 4 weeks.
    Do you really think that in 4 weeks time we will be able to assess how individual countries have performed in covid 19.

    It will be months, even years, before any real lessons will be obvious
    So in my books Germany, S Korea have handled this really well.

    Trumps handling has been appalling.

    We are far closer to which in our outcomes?

    You keep saying it's not easy. I agree why do you think Germany and S Korea appear to have found it much easier than the UK?
    The structure of the German diagnostics industry helps. The UK sector is fully rationalised with a few big players serving a monosonstic buyer and operating a reference lab structure. In Germany primary care physicians can choose their diagnostic service provider and a surprising number of them send them to their mate down the road who has a few bits of kit in his garage*. That’s a crazy system in normal times - but in this situation it gave them a network that could be scaled very quickly

    * I exaggerate for effect. But not much.
    Maybe Charles but i think investment in healthcare is also relevant see attached.

    I found fig 3 interesting as well

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29
    If capacity had turned about to be the issue then possibly. But the issue with testing is not about capacity
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    edited April 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    Yes it is.

    Unless you can justify it (prove it true), the burden of proof being on you and comedy youtube clips not being enough to get you over the line.
    Laws these days are so complex that the average lay person cannot read a law and know for sure what is allowed and what isn't. Personally I see this as a big drawback of all legal systems
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    It can be. e.g.:

    https://www.gallaudet.edu/tutorial-and-instructional-programs/english-center/the-process-and-type-of-writing/journalism/what-libel
    That opinion surprises me because alcoholism is defined as an illness.

    I will therefore rephrase.

    Given a very high number of politicians and media outlets in Europe, including some of his close allies, have accused Juncker of being an alcoholic, and he has furiously denied the claims but never rebutted them or sued for libel, while simultaneously being recorded on multiple occasions in an obvious state of inebriation, it is hard to see how it could be considered libellous to accuse him of alcoholism.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Pagan2 said:

    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    I would say the UK negotiating position is infantile and irresponsible, rather than united.

    An observation. This government thinks absolutely the last people who should have a say in the trading relationship is anyone who actually trades. Did they ask them whether they wanted the "certainty" of scorched earth over the possibility of a workable trading relationship?

    Did they ask the people dealing with the Coronavirus that they want the focus to be diverted onto Brexit and away from the epidemic so they can act without EU regulation?

    The government takes us for fools.
    Our trade with the EU makes up about 5% of total trade, 85% being internal trade. 100% of traders however are constrained by eu laws....sorry I dont think the 1 in 20 traders that do eu trade here are in a strong position
    The "85%" aren't being consulted either. There's no upside for them.

    (I think EU trade is worth about 15% of UK GDP)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    It can be. e.g.:

    https://www.gallaudet.edu/tutorial-and-instructional-programs/english-center/the-process-and-type-of-writing/journalism/what-libel
    That opinion surprises me because alcoholism is defined as an illness.

    I will therefore rephrase.

    Given a very high number of politicians and media outlets in Europe, including some of his close allies, have accused Juncker of being an alcoholic, and he has furiously denied the claims but never rebutted them or sued for libel, while simultaneously being recorded on multiple occasions in an obvious state of inebriation, it is hard to see how it could be considered libellous to accuse him of alcoholism.
    I was only commenting on the general statement that accusing someone of it is not libelous. Couldn't possibly comment about more specific examples.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    edited April 2020
    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A couple of random thoughts from me this evening:

    1) I use 8x50 binoculars to watch horse racing and they are perfectly fine - they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.

    2) I've two unrelated thoughts about the evolution and spread of Covid-19 which are probably nonsense but who knows? - first, I was ill with the worst cough I have ever had around New Year. I eventually got an appointment with a Doctor and got some antibiotics which helped but one morning I woke up colder than I have felt in my life (and I wasn't naked on a park bench - we've all been there). I was literally shivering but two hours sleep later and I was fine.

    Was it flu? Maybe but it was like no flu I have ever experienced. I am convinced other strains of this virus were around before what we know as Covid-19 appeared.

    The second thought is that the northern hemisphere enjoyed an anomalously mild winter. The US, Europe and Asia all enjoyed well above average temperatures - indeed all the cold seemed to be bottled up in Alaska.

    I'm no expert but I imagine severe cold doesn't help viruses spread and I just wonder if the milder conditions facilitated the spread of the virus from China. Had it been the usual severe winter would the virus have spread so far so fast?

    3) I also think we should thank road hauliers for keeping supplies on the road and the power generators for keeping the lights on. There are many heroes and heroines beyond the NHS who are keeping us going including local authorities and the private sector who have collaborated on an unprecedented scale.

    I have to say I have found an excellent home delivery service which would normally be providing wholesale supplies to the restaurant trade.

    Those who bemoan the failure of businesses have a point but capitalism is occasionally brutal - it is exploitative and merciless. Sudden and rapid change can mean opportunity for the flexible and fast moving. There will be those who do well out of this crisis - they will be the minority but they will be there.

    If you had flu symptoms in early January it is as good as certain not to be corona, unless you know someone you met had been in Wuhan. There really is no evidence to support that the virus was taking hold but undetected in Europe at that time. Infact there is good counter evidence. We know that it is highly contageous, but nevertheless the random testing done in the UK early to mid February turned up no cases of it (other than those with links to China or Italy).
    Why does this site attract so many who had the particularly troublesome winter cold that was doing the rounds after Xmas, and now think they had the a Corona virus?
    Hypocorondria?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic

    Yes

    and when we finally add in Care home deaths we pass France to move to 3rd in the shittest outcome in Europe league table and to me looks more and more like we will end up with most deaths in Europe.

    I blame Jeremy Corbyn

    We have the 3rd biggest population in Europe so that would be about par
    So you think the Govt response is distinctly average.

    I will get back to you in 4 weeks.
    Do you really think that in 4 weeks time we will be able to assess how individual countries have performed in covid 19.

    It will be months, even years, before any real lessons will be obvious
    So in my books Germany, S Korea have handled this really well.

    Trumps handling has been appalling.

    We are far closer to which in our outcomes?

    You keep saying it's not easy. I agree why do you think Germany and S Korea appear to have found it much easier than the UK?
    The structure of the German diagnostics industry helps. The UK sector is fully rationalised with a few big players serving a monopsonistic buyer and operating a reference lab structure. In Germany primary care physicians can choose their diagnostic service provider and a surprising number of them send them to their mate down the road who has a few bits of kit in his garage*. That’s a crazy system in normal times - but in this situation it gave them a network that could be scaled very quickly

    * I exaggerate for effect. But not much.
    Bit like... Apacor Ltd ?
    That looks like a device manufacturer not a lab.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    FF43 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FF43 said:

    humbugger said:

    On the Brexit transition we appear now to be in a situation where we have a united UK government negotiating with what appears to be an increasingly dysfunctional EU. Something of a reversal of fortunes.

    I would say the UK negotiating position is infantile and irresponsible, rather than united.

    An observation. This government thinks absolutely the last people who should have a say in the trading relationship is anyone who actually trades. Did they ask them whether they wanted the "certainty" of scorched earth over the possibility of a workable trading relationship?

    Did they ask the people dealing with the Coronavirus that they want the focus to be diverted onto Brexit and away from the epidemic so they can act without EU regulation?

    The government takes us for fools.
    Our trade with the EU makes up about 5% of total trade, 85% being internal trade. 100% of traders however are constrained by eu laws....sorry I dont think the 1 in 20 traders that do eu trade here are in a strong position
    The "85%" aren't being consulted either. There's no upside for them.

    (I think EU trade is worth about 15% of UK GDP)
    total export trade is 12% 44% of that is eu trade last time I checked the figures and yes the 85% arent being consulted either however they werent consulted either when we were in the eu.

    For example if I manufacture vacuum cleaners and only sell them in the uk I was still bound by eu regulations on how much power a vacuum cleaner could use even though I never exported them. Something thankfully that is coming to an end
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited April 2020
    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A couple of random thoughts from me this evening:

    1) I use 8x50 binoculars to watch horse racing and they are perfectly fine - they allow good viewing of the betting ring as well.

    2) I've two unrelated thoughts about the evolution and spread of Covid-19 which are probably nonsense but who knows? - first, I was ill with the worst cough I have ever had around New Year. I eventually got an appointment with a Doctor and got some antibiotics which helped but one morning I woke up colder than I have felt in my life (and I wasn't naked on a park bench - we've all been there). I was literally shivering but two hours sleep later and I was fine.

    Was it flu? Maybe but it was like no flu I have ever experienced. I am convinced other strains of this virus were around before what we know as Covid-19 appeared.

    The second thought is that the northern hemisphere enjoyed an anomalously mild winter. The US, Europe and Asia all enjoyed well above average temperatures - indeed all the cold seemed to be bottled up in Alaska.

    I'm no expert but I imagine severe cold doesn't help viruses spread and I just wonder if the milder conditions facilitated the spread of the virus from China. Had it been the usual severe winter would the virus have spread so far so fast?

    3) I also think we should thank road hauliers for keeping supplies on the road and the power generators for keeping the lights on. There are many heroes and heroines beyond the NHS who are keeping us going including local authorities and the private sector who have collaborated on an unprecedented scale.

    I have to say I have found an excellent home delivery service which would normally be providing wholesale supplies to the restaurant trade.

    Those who bemoan the failure of businesses have a point but capitalism is occasionally brutal - it is exploitative and merciless. Sudden and rapid change can mean opportunity for the flexible and fast moving. There will be those who do well out of this crisis - they will be the minority but they will be there.

    If you had flu symptoms in early January it is as good as certain not to be corona, unless you know someone you met had been in Wuhan. There really is no evidence to support that the virus was taking hold but undetected in Europe at that time. Infact there is good counter evidence. We know that it is highly contageous, but nevertheless the random testing done in the UK early to mid February turned up no cases of it (other than those with links to China or Italy).
    Why does this site attract so many who had the particularly troublesome winter cold that was doing the rounds after Xmas, and now think they had the a Corona virus?
    I was marvelling at somebody who had had such an illness and yet did not think it was coronavirus.

    Although that does only bring the total up to Stodge, Foxy (who had every reason to think he had it) and the many different posters who are absolutely not SeanT.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    This thread

    tested positive

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pagan2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    humbugger said:

    Serious question, has the changeover at the top of the EU seriously impaired its coherence. Are they missing Tusk and Juncker?

    It is hard to imagine the loss of Juncker making any organisation more incoherent.

    At any rate, its speech will be less slurred.
    While being a probably alcoholic it has to be admitted he was effective
    ‘Probably’??!!!
    I was trying not to get ogh in trouble by making potentially libellious statements of fact
    Accusing somebody of being an alcoholic is not libellous.

    I steered clear of his tax affairs or that strange business where the Luxembourgish security service was caught monitoring his opponents. Apart from anything else, that was before he was appointed to the Commission.
    Yes it is.

    Unless you can justify it (prove it true), the burden of proof being on you and comedy youtube clips not being enough to get you over the line.
    Laws these days are so complex that the average lay person cannot read a law and know for sure what is allowed and what isn't. Personally I see this as a big drawback of all legal systems
    So adopt the precautionary principle: if you say You are/probably are/are in my opinion an alcoholic, in public or in writing, you will end up with a clearer idea of what the law allows, but poorer.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,567

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    humbugger said:

    Anyone any idea how much the EU will be prepared to pay if the UK agrees a request for an extension to the Transition?

    I don't want COVID-19 to be used a sleight of hand to leave us in the EU for a sustained additional period of time.

    But I'm also aware that neither the UK, the EU nor the constituent countries of the EU are very Brexit focused right now. And with - umm - rather good reason.

    So long as it's time limited to 3-4 months, I think an extension is probably prudent.

    Problem is that the EU claims that we can only extend for one or two years, any other extensions will require a new EU treaty.
    Source?

    The withdrawal agreement.
    A bit odd they write two such long periods in. Surely they could see that was going to be a red rag in a way that an emergency extension for totally unforeseen circumstances ( as now precisely) of a shorter time might be acceptable all round.

    As it is faced with one year or nothing I’d be very very surprised if the U.K. Govt doesn’t plump for nothing, especially as it gives six months notice for supermarkets to stock up on bog roll and any trade friction is going to be a minor wrinkle compared with Covid.

    In which the EU will managed to have (yet again) twisted the cards and yet again ended up with a harder outcome.

    Could’ve just given us an emergency brake in Feb 16, looks increasingly likely they’re going to end up with WTO and a big Irish border issue, despite all their much vaunted negotiation brilliance.

    The EU have made many serious mistakes but the fundamental problem is that they are dealing with hate-filled lunatics.
    The only hate filled lunatic I see around here these days is you.
This discussion has been closed.