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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891
    HYUFD said:
    South Carolina is where Mayor Pete's price surely flies out I think.
  • Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
  • ydoethur said:

    On topic, if the role of the monarchy is no different to that of the president of Germany, then dispense with the palaces, the 'Royal Highness' titles for so many of their family and the OTT forelock tugging and deference.

    I would like to be able to vote for our next head of state. I have no problem with Charles or William standing as candidates. I might even rank them above the Tory candidate - assuming we would use AV.

    The grandeur and majesty of the monarchy is kind of its point. It's that which gives it its magic and propels the symbols of our state to another level through its pomp and pageantry.

    The ranks, rituals and mythology that go with it are part of what gives it its dignity.

    We need both its stories and its divinity for it to be admired and envied as an institution.
    Divinity? Seriously?
    The first name on the royal family tree is Woden.
    Nonsense.

    The first name on the royal family tree is Fergus Mór mac Eirc. Back when das Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha were still living off nuts and roots.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    https://twitter.com/BBCRichardMoss/status/1231559476005744642?s=20
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, if the role of the monarchy is no different to that of the president of Germany, then dispense with the palaces, the 'Royal Highness' titles for so many of their family and the OTT forelock tugging and deference.

    I would like to be able to vote for our next head of state. I have no problem with Charles or William standing as candidates. I might even rank them above the Tory candidate - assuming we would use AV.

    The grandeur and majesty of the monarchy is kind of its point. It's that which gives it its magic and propels the symbols of our state to another level through its pomp and pageantry.

    The ranks, rituals and mythology that go with it are part of what gives it its dignity.

    We need both its stories and its divinity for it to be admired and envied as an institution.
    Divinity? Seriously?
    The first name on the royal family tree is Woden.
    Nonsense.

    The first name on the royal family tree is Fergus Mór mac Eirc. Back when das Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha were still living off nuts and roots.
    Woden is pre Roman.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Labour has an opportunity to win in the South. If the last few years have taught us anything it is that there is no such thing as safe seats for life. Time to attack the blue soft underbelly.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    I wont be unhappy with Keir winning. I hope he puts Nandy into a high position if he does.
  • Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited February 2020
    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    https://twitter.com/BBCRichardMoss/status/1231559476005744642?s=20
    Starmer’s position, while arguably a cop out, is perfectly sensible. After all, no PM reveals the contents of the sealed letter they write to SSBN commanders.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Labour has an opportunity to win in the South. If the last few years have taught us anything it is that there is no such thing as safe seats for life. Time to attack the blue soft underbelly.
    The party might need to go a little to the right for that. :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    edited February 2020

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland.
  • Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    A bit like muscles then?
    So, if we have it we have to use it?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    https://twitter.com/BBCRichardMoss/status/1231559476005744642?s=20
    Starmer’s position, while arguably a cop out, is perfectly sensible. After all, no PM reveals the contents of the sealed letter they write to SSBN commanders.
    Nandy also said she opposed Trident renewal which Starmer did not do as such, Long Bailey surprisingly strongest on defence as she was on the monarchy ie pro while Starmer wanted a diluted monarchy and Nandy said she was a republican
  • felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    Have you had 'Labour supporters' on social media telling you that?
    You cannot accept that the SNP is not perfect and is under fire on policies across the political divide but then you will not see Independence no matter if another referendum is called

    You seem averse to providing proof for all these claims to knowing how the general populace and sub sections thereof are feeling.

    Just as a bit of guidance, if I were to say that there are folk who thought Boris Johnson was a terrible human being and would be a disaster as a leader of the Tory party and PM, who then did a volte-face to fall in behind him and recommend everyone else should do similar, I don't think I'd have to look far to find examples of that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, if the role of the monarchy is no different to that of the president of Germany, then dispense with the palaces, the 'Royal Highness' titles for so many of their family and the OTT forelock tugging and deference.

    I would like to be able to vote for our next head of state. I have no problem with Charles or William standing as candidates. I might even rank them above the Tory candidate - assuming we would use AV.

    The grandeur and majesty of the monarchy is kind of its point. It's that which gives it its magic and propels the symbols of our state to another level through its pomp and pageantry.

    The ranks, rituals and mythology that go with it are part of what gives it its dignity.

    We need both its stories and its divinity for it to be admired and envied as an institution.
    Divinity? Seriously?
    The first name on the royal family tree is Woden.
    Nonsense.

    The first name on the royal family tree is Fergus Mór mac Eirc. Back when das Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha were still living off nuts and roots.
    Sargon says hello.
  • Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    A bit like muscles then?
    So, if we have it we have to use it?
    No point in having it if you will not use it. That is why it is a deterrent
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
  • I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    Squally? Bollocks.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50766014

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Labour has an opportunity to win in the South. If the last few years have taught us anything it is that there is no such thing as safe seats for life. Time to attack the blue soft underbelly.
    The party might need to go a little to the right for that. :)
    There are a great many areas in the south - London, Oxford, Reading, Milton Keynes, Brighton, Bristol, Southampton, Warwick, Worcester, Plymouth - where tacking left would do Labour no harm. These are areas increasingly dominated by white collar university graduates who tend to be increasingly left wing. Extinction Rebellion is not run by the working class looking for a better life.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    A bit like muscles then?
    So, if we have it we have to use it?
    No point in having it if you will not use it. That is why it is a deterrent
    We have no idea whether anyone would use it regardless of what they say.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    Not sure you’re quite catching all the nuances of deterrence there, Big_G.

  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
  • Pulpstar said:

    BLOOMBERG CLEARLY ELECTABLE OVER SANDERS LOLOLOL

    https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1231611469667721216

    #fuckoffbloomberg
  • Pulpstar said:

    Buttigieg's odds are surely completely wrong (Far too short) right now ?

    He's going to get destroyed in South Carolina.

    I've laid him down to zero.

    Also dug myself out my Sanders hole.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
  • HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    Jonathan sounds like tim more and more every day.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
    After Boris won the biggest majority since Blair who he voted for twice, BigG saw the light
  • At last we're getting to the nub of the matter.

    https://twitter.com/sparkyhamill/status/1231227411959775232?s=20
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    Squally? Bollocks.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50766014

    That was then, this is now. Squally was putting it mildly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
    Considering he’s such a narcissist I’m pleased but surprised to learn he comes second.
  • felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    Have you had 'Labour supporters' on social media telling you that?
    You cannot accept that the SNP is not perfect and is under fire on policies across the political divide but then you will not see Independence no matter if another referendum is called

    You seem averse to providing proof for all these claims to knowing how the general populace and sub sections thereof are feeling.

    Just as a bit of guidance, if I were to say that there are folk who thought Boris Johnson was a terrible human being and would be a disaster as a leader of the Tory party and PM, who then did a volte-face to fall in behind him and recommend everyone else should do similar, I don't think I'd have to look far to find examples of that.
    I speak only as I find on our facebook group and of course we will argue over the SNP as my wife and I are unionists and always will be. Of course the SNP have an arrogance and are dismissive of any criticsm but the next few months will see an open battle over succession and of course Salmonds trial and the unknowns following it

    Pride comes before a fall
  • On topic, if the role of the monarchy is no different to that of the president of Germany, then dispense with the palaces, the 'Royal Highness' titles for so many of their family and the OTT forelock tugging and deference.

    I would like to be able to vote for our next head of state. I have no problem with Charles or William standing as candidates. I might even rank them above the Tory candidate - assuming we would use AV.

    The grandeur and majesty of the monarchy is kind of its point. It's that which gives it its magic and propels the symbols of our state to another level through its pomp and pageantry.

    The ranks, rituals and mythology that go with it are part of what gives it its dignity.

    We need both its stories and its divinity for it to be admired and envied as an institution.
    Divinity? Seriously?
    Yes. It's not the people in it who matter so much as the institution itself and what it represents.

    I know pb dresses toward the radical republican but this is what I think republicans consistently miss: they focus the argument about the head of state toward the individual occupying it. In reality we should be far more concerned with the constitution and the institution and seeing that the individuals within it play by the rules.

    If you get that bit right it doesn't really matter much who the individual is.
  • HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
    After Boris won the biggest majority since Blair who he voted for twice, BigG saw the light
    More a Damascene conversion in that case? :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    A bit like muscles then?
    So, if we have it we have to use it?
    No point in having it if you will not use it. That is why it is a deterrent
    No point in having it if you will not say you will use it. That's a different thing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
  • I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    Squally? Bollocks.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50766014

    That was then, this is now. Squally was putting it mildly.
    Typical PB Bubbler. Meanwhile, in the real world...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
    Delivering an 80 seat majority will do that.

    You'll just have to take it from me.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    Jonathan sounds like tim more and more every day.....
    That’s a compliment. Tim is cool.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited February 2020

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
    Boris has taken us out of Europe and has turned left on his politics, and I am content with both of these actions.

    Former remainers just cannot accept the reality and of course attack Boris with a passion that would not be there if he said he wanted to remain in the EU
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    At last we're getting to the nub of the matter.

    https://twitter.com/sparkyhamill/status/1231227411959775232?s=20

    Men wearing skirts rather than trousers has always been embarrassing! The beer's a bit crap, and despite promising to try to play Rugby they've never worked it out :)

    Scotland!

    Generally the best bit of the UK though, for all the reasons I've failed to mention.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800


    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority

    It's only been 10 weeks since the election so a little churlish to berate Labour for a lack of progress given we are still in the honeymoon phase. Let's see where we are in two years and we can pass judgement on Labour's progress or lack of it.

    In any case, it's often said Oppositions don't win elections but Governments lose them. Even if Boris is re-elected in 2024, by 2029 the Conservatives will have been in Government for 19 years - an unprecedented period under universal suffrage.

    I'd also argue nothing lasts forever - one day the Conservatives will find themselves on the wrong side of opinion and on the wrong end of an election result.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    "Reservations"??? IIRC, he was going to be a disaster. Unvoteable for you as was Hunt.

    Now, it is like the second coming.......
    Considering he’s such a narcissist I’m pleased but surprised to learn he comes second.
    The first one is between Boris and himself...
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    We know Ruth Davidson was hitting home due to the constant nationalist attacks on her.
  • HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    Hardly, she won lots of SNP seats in 2016 and more in 2017 but Brexit held her back.

    Starmer is pro single market however and has a plus 7% rating with Scots, higher than his plus 5% rating across the UK

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/low-public-awareness-all-labour-leadership-candidates-although-keir-starmer-starting-stronger
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    Squally? Bollocks.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50766014

    That was then, this is now. Squally was putting it mildly.
    Typical PB Bubbler. Meanwhile, in the real world...
    If you say so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
    He would actually be the most popular Labour leader with Scots since Brown
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800


    Boris has taken us out of Europe and has turned left on his politics, and I am content with both of these actions.

    Former remainers just cannot accept the reality and of course attack Boris with a passion that would not be there if he said he wanted to remain in the EU

    The problem with being a big spending social democrat is, as Matthew D'Ancona put it ,"you can have your cake, you can eat your cake but either way you end up paying for it". We will all end up paying for Johnson's pending splurge in time.

    Put it another way, you can promise the world but it ends up costing the earth.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    Hardly, she won lots of SNP seats in 2016 and more in 2017 but Brexit held her back.

    Starmer is pro single market however and has a plus 7% rating with Scots, higher than his plus 5% rating across the UK

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/low-public-awareness-all-labour-leadership-candidates-although-keir-starmer-starting-stronger
    Then Jackson Coleslaw took the party backwards and was punished by being elected permanent leader.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.

    I'm North London and I'm voting for her.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    A bit like muscles then?
    So, if we have it we have to use it?
    No point in having it if you will not use it. That is why it is a deterrent
    It is a deterrent if some uncertainty is present.

    The reality is that it is an obsolete weapon system designed for the strategy and threats of a half century ago. Russia is no longer a military threat to us.

    It is now a right wing absolutist state as in Czarist times. That is why both the leaders of Britain First and Tommy Robinson were there this week. They don't need to invade when they can influence our governments to put Trump and Brexit in place and to have an absolutist russophile at the heart of government.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
    He would actually be the most popular Labour leader with Scots since Brown
    An English North London elite lawyer being popular in Scotland for labour. - not a chance
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    Hardly, she won lots of SNP seats in 2016 and more in 2017 but Brexit held her back.

    Starmer is pro single market however and has a plus 7% rating with Scots, higher than his plus 5% rating across the UK

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/low-public-awareness-all-labour-leadership-candidates-although-keir-starmer-starting-stronger
    Then Jackson Coleslaw took the party backwards and was punished by being elected permanent leader.
    I think Labour under Starmer could overtake the Tories for 2nd in Scotland by winning over SNP converts, Carslaw will just hold the Tory vote at 25%
  • stodge said:


    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority

    It's only been 10 weeks since the election so a little churlish to berate Labour for a lack of progress given we are still in the honeymoon phase. Let's see where we are in two years and we can pass judgement on Labour's progress or lack of it.

    In any case, it's often said Oppositions don't win elections but Governments lose them. Even if Boris is re-elected in 2024, by 2029 the Conservatives will have been in Government for 19 years - an unprecedented period under universal suffrage.

    I'd also argue nothing lasts forever - one day the Conservatives will find themselves on the wrong side of opinion and on the wrong end of an election result.
    I agree 100% with your last paragraph
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
    He would actually be the most popular Labour leader with Scots since Brown
    An English North London elite lawyer being popular in Scotland for labour. - not a chance
    Read the polls, he polls higher in Scotland than England and went to uni in Leeds not the South for undergrad.

    Sturgeon is also an elite lawyer anyway
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited February 2020

    Pulpstar said:

    BLOOMBERG CLEARLY ELECTABLE OVER SANDERS LOLOLOL

    https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1231611469667721216

    #fuckoffbloomberg
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/21/mike-bloomberg-facebook-ad-campaign
    He’s doing 69% of all political Facebook ad spend this year.
    12% is Trump and the rest is the whole Dem field.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    Not for a while, you have become more of a Boris fanboy than HYUFD'.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    Hardly, she won lots of SNP seats in 2016 and more in 2017 but Brexit held her back.

    Starmer is pro single market however and has a plus 7% rating with Scots, higher than his plus 5% rating across the UK

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/low-public-awareness-all-labour-leadership-candidates-although-keir-starmer-starting-stronger
    Then Jackson Coleslaw took the party backwards and was punished by being elected permanent leader.
    I think Labour under Starmer could overtake the Tories for 2nd in Scotland by winning over SNP converts, Carslaw will just hold the Tory vote at 25%
    You do not have a clue on Scots politics and seem to think opinion polls are infalliable

    SNP supporters will not vote labour, they stepped into labour's shoes and are the authentic left in Scotland
  • Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Sometimes avoiding an answer is confidence and giving one is over compensating.

    https://twitter.com/joeIjoeIjoel/status/1231562554931138561?s=20

    I suppose we should be grateful that Nandy wasn't asked if she would press the button to keep the Union intact.

    I'm stunned that Starmer failed to answer. The Tories will be delighted at that hostage to fortune.
    This does show how flawed Starmer is. He is so frightened of his support he cannot give an honest answer in case he upsets them

    And so many think he is the messiah when plainly he is no leader
    On the contrary, Starmer has clearly thought about it. Good for him.
    No he hasn't. His answer was not that of someone who is a leader

    The honest answer is yes or no
    I get a little weary of this 'yes' or 'no' fascism. Life is rarely, in fact never, that simple. Kantian epistemology is one good reason, but it's less highbrow than that. Between the simplistics of 'yes' and 'no' lie many nuances of meaning. We shouldn't succumb to the binary tyranny.



    On the nuclear weapon there is no third way.

    You either use it or lose it
    A bit like muscles then?
    So, if we have it we have to use it?
    No point in having it if you will not use it. That is why it is a deterrent
    It is a deterrent if some uncertainty is present.

    The reality is that it is an obsolete weapon system designed for the strategy and threats of a half century ago. Russia is no longer a military threat to us.

    It is now a right wing absolutist state as in Czarist times. That is why both the leaders of Britain First and Tommy Robinson were there this week. They don't need to invade when they can influence our governments to put Trump and Brexit in place and to have an absolutist russophile at the heart of government.
    If the world would rid itself of these weapons I would be delighted
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
    He would actually be the most popular Labour leader with Scots since Brown
    An English North London elite lawyer being popular in Scotland for labour. - not a chance
    Read the polls, he polls higher in Scotland than England and went to uni in Leeds not the South for undergrad.

    Sturgeon is also an elite lawyer anyway
    Sometimes you get things ever so wrong and this is one of them
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
    He would actually be the most popular Labour leader with Scots since Brown
    An English North London elite lawyer being popular in Scotland for labour. - not a chance
    Read the polls, he polls higher in Scotland than England and went to uni in Leeds not the South for undergrad.

    Sturgeon is also an elite lawyer anyway
    The polls are saying he's more popular than Sturgeon?

    PMSL I don't think so! And you came out with this garbage during Corbyn's original leadership campaign. Until Labour have a USP they are deceased in Scotland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    Hardly, she won lots of SNP seats in 2016 and more in 2017 but Brexit held her back.

    Starmer is pro single market however and has a plus 7% rating with Scots, higher than his plus 5% rating across the UK

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/low-public-awareness-all-labour-leadership-candidates-although-keir-starmer-starting-stronger
    Then Jackson Coleslaw took the party backwards and was punished by being elected permanent leader.
    I think Labour under Starmer could overtake the Tories for 2nd in Scotland by winning over SNP converts, Carslaw will just hold the Tory vote at 25%
    You do not have a clue on Scots politics and seem to think opinion polls are infalliable

    SNP supporters will not vote labour, they stepped into labour's shoes and are the authentic left in Scotland
    I disagree, a reasonably competent if dull social democrat leader of Labour like Starmer who is pro single market but not independence obsessed could start to win over centrist SNP voters after over a decade of the SNP dominating in Scotland
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    Not for a while, you have become more of a Boris fanboy than HYUFD'.
    Now that is not true
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    If the Tories could not break through in the North East in 1983 with a majority of 144 they likely never will.

    But they did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    Starmer will not cut it with the Scots
    He would actually be the most popular Labour leader with Scots since Brown
    An English North London elite lawyer being popular in Scotland for labour. - not a chance
    Read the polls, he polls higher in Scotland than England and went to uni in Leeds not the South for undergrad.

    Sturgeon is also an elite lawyer anyway
    The polls are saying he's more popular than Sturgeon?

    PMSL I don't think so! And you came out with this garbage during Corbyn's original leadership campaign. Until Labour have a USP they are deceased in Scotland.
    Corbyn gained 6 SNP seats in 2017 but Starmer is a more telegenic, centrist leader than Corbyn
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    Anecdote alert.

    Brexit has brought across a number of my blue collar contacts in Port Talbot to the dark side. A number of professional people I know lent Boris their vote while Corbyn was the alternative. So yes I believe you are probably right.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    Not for a while, you have become more of a Boris fanboy than HYUFD'.
    Now that is not true
    If you ask for a show of hands you might be surprised.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Well that is predictable but no signs that labour are making progress

    I know your opinion on Boris but he is there for five years if he wants to be and none of the labour leaders will see an 80 seat majority
    If only we had your independent viewpoint BigG. You lasted all of five minutes outside the party.
    You have no idea about my membership of the party.

    I voted for Blair twice and apart from Iraq he would be a winning labour leader again today
    You resigned last year and made a big song and dance about it here. You then came running back and are now reinstalled as a cheerleader.
    Along with millions of others though I have my reservations on Boris as I have expressed on here from time to time
    Not for a while, you have become more of a Boris fanboy than HYUFD'.
    Now that is not true
    Second place, at least!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    If the Tories could not break through in the North East in 1983 with a majority of 144 they likely never will.

    But they did.
    Labour won most North East seats in 2019 too
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    Anecdote alert.

    Brexit has brought across a number of my blue collar contacts in Port Talbot to the dark side. A number of professional people I know lent Boris their vote while Corbyn was the alternative. So yes I believe you are probably right.
    Further anecdote alert.

    All my Welsh connections are thoroughly fed up with Labour. What may actually have saved them from further embarrassment this time is that Johnson is a divisive twat.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    If the Tories could not break through in the North East in 1983 with a majority of 144 they likely never will.

    But they did.
    Labour won most North East seats in 2019 too
    ...but you understand where Ydoethur is coming from. There are no longer any safe Labour seats.

    On the other hand Christchurch will always be Tory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    If the Tories could not break through in the North East in 1983 with a majority of 144 they likely never will.

    But they did.
    Labour won most North East seats in 2019 too
    ...but you understand where Ydoethur is coming from. There are no longer any safe Labour seats.

    On the other hand Christchurch will always be Tory.
    East Ham and Knowsley, Leyton, Hackney, Tottenham, Liverpool and Manchester beg to differ.

    The LDs won Christchurch in 1993
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    After last night, there is only one monarchy that now matters, the Gypsy King....

    Please, it is the Gypo Traveller King.
    Nothing wrong with Gypsy. Often (though not always) used distinct, as in 'Gypsies and Travellers', though I don't know enough about the communities to know why.
    Because Gypsies are Romany, a specific racial group (Indian origins I believe). Travellers are those who have adopted a similarly nomadic lifestyle
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think Starmer's non answer on Trident will harm him. It hasn't harmed the SNP in Scotland - people just don't believe it's the bedrock of our security. I wonder actually if he's not thinking of trying to entice back SNP supporters actually. SNP are going through very squally times, set to get worse. It has been said that Labour cannot win except through Scotland.

    In nine years, Labour’s vote has halved, while the Tories have increased theirs 50% and the SNP vote has almost trebled.

    Winning that back is not going to be at all easy. At the moment, it’s still going the wrong way, and even the nationwide surge in 2017 barely registered.
    How has Labours vote halved in 9 years?
    In Scotland! From 1,035,528 to 511,838.
    All the more remarkable given the Labour vote has grown by about 2M overall in the same time.
    Labour’s vote has risen in Wales since 2005 - from 591,000 to 632,000 - but their number of seats has fallen from 30 to 22. It’s a sign that should worry Labour that their vote is becoming grossly inefficient.
    Yet they still win most votes and seats, Plaid and the LDs are hapless in Wales and the Tories too entrenched in North and Mid Wales while Labour dominates the populous South
    Tories were close behind them this time in terms of votes and they ran them much closer than you might think in many seats in the valleys. I am still working on that thread header.
    If the Tories did not win Wales in 2019 with a majority of 80 they likely never will
    Anecdote alert.

    Brexit has brought across a number of my blue collar contacts in Port Talbot to the dark side. A number of professional people I know lent Boris their vote while Corbyn was the alternative. So yes I believe you are probably right.
    Further anecdote alert.

    All my Welsh connections are thoroughly fed up with Labour. What may actually have saved them from further embarrassment this time is that Johnson is a divisive twat.
    With an open-tied moron like Drakeford running the show anything is possible. If Plaid hadn't imploded they could have taken up the slack.

    Boris didn't put off my Brexiteer contacts, they loved him. I can't think of many Tory MPs in Wales that have as much charisma as Boris has in his little finger. They are indeed as uninspiring as Labour politicians in Wales, and as for Tory AMs are concerned, Drakeford looks almost human by contrast.
  • Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    After last night, there is only one monarchy that now matters, the Gypsy King....

    Please, it is the Gypo Traveller King.
    Nothing wrong with Gypsy. Often (though not always) used distinct, as in 'Gypsies and Travellers', though I don't know enough about the communities to know why.
    Because Gypsies are Romany, a specific racial group (Indian origins I believe). Travellers are those who have adopted a similarly nomadic lifestyle
    Personally I am not going to question a 6ft 9in 20 stone guy, who is heavy weight champion of the world, if he perhaps should use traveller or gypsy to describe himself.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,455
    edited February 2020
    Mods.....looks like you have a problem....spam thread has been created.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    It is a pity that our membership in the south don't see the need to have a leader who gets it.
    Tory Leavers may prefer Nandy but will vote for Boris anyway, Tory and LD and SNP Remainers might switch though to a Starmer led Labour
    Please explain how SNP voters find Starmer attractive. Genuinely inquisitive, as I have never seen any Scottish Unionist commentators making this claim.
    He had a net positive rating in Scotland with Mori
    So did Ruth Davidson. Bugger all use it did her.
    We know Ruth Davidson was hitting home due to the constant nationalist attacks on her.
    Jim Murphy
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Mods.....looks like you have a problem....spam thread has been created.

    Two, to be exact.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891
    Warren up to 19% in new poll.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    We are closing everything here in Italy because of the coronavirus

    10 municipalites are locked down with police now controlling exit routes.

    Cinema and theaters are ordered to close in Lombardy region. Pubs should close after 6pm

    Schools and universities are closed in Lombardy, Veneto, Friuli, Piemonte and Trentino since tomorrow.

    Masses have been canceled in all churches located in Lombardy starting from this evening. The same order have just been given by the bishop of Venice.
    The Milan cathedral is going to be closed tomorrow

    How exciting. I have to go to Milan next week (albeit Malpensa, so nowhere near downtown Milan), having been in Shanghai in January. Perhaps I should just think of it as a form of Chinese roulette.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    An excellent header, @Casino_Royale. Thank you.

    Personally I feel that Harry has turned into a whinging petulant child and it is doing him no favours. I’m all for him retiring to a private life but then he needs to stop trying to hang onto the benefits of royal life and commenting on what royal means. His latest outburst is ill-judged. A long period of silence from him would be wise.

    A period of calm and competent getting on with their jobs would be welcome in our institutions.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Jonathan said:

    Just come back from seeing Lisa Nandy speak.

    My review: she’s getting my vote. She gets it.

    I think Lisa is the only sane choice for labour and would vote for her if I had a vote

    RLB is over and Starmer is not a leader
    Starmer is a leader. But Nandy is good too. Both are better than Boris.
    Starmer has been in leadership roles. The evidence suggests that he’s a follower.
This discussion has been closed.