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  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone give (or link to) a non-libellous non-contempt-of-court summary of what's happening in Scottish politics? I know about the Salmond case, but have only vaguely heard some umours about Sturgeon, and there seems to be some factional rivalry in the SNP too. What's up?
    There have been rumours for some time that Nicola was looking for an international exit but not finding one. The SNP are split between those that want a referendum right now and those who want to do things properly with Westminster consent. The latter also recognise that right now might not be the best time and want a better indication than the polls are giving that a second referendum might pass.

    Nicola leads the second group but Boris's blunt responses are making her look weak. When you add in the speculation about the possible fall out of the trial possible leadership candidates are desperate to get into Holyrood. This is likely to result in a serious competition for Ruth's seat between Robertson (the wait candidate) and Cherry (a let's go candidate). Of course there may not be a vacancy. There is no reason why Ruth should stand down unless she not only went the House of Lords but also took a government post. That's possible but far from certain.

    A further frisson has been added to all this by the departure of Derek Mackay. He was the obvious heir apparent and would have been very hard to stop if a vacancy had occurred. His departure leaves no obvious or strong candidate in the Parliament. It has stepped up the urgency for both wings.
    David, Mackay was always a lightweight, how he ever got to where he was is a mystery. He was never ever going to be leader in a month of Sundays for many reasons including serious lack of talent and charisma.
    PS: Robertson is the next leader as long as he does not just show himself as a clone of Sturgeon. He has far more talent but people are getting fed up and beginning to think current leadership are getting fat and happy with the current status quo.
    Maybe they should do their day job which they are failing at rather than internal fighting over power bases

    The next month looks like a shambles for the SNP and will Nicola survive
    G, on almost every measure Scotland under the SNP is doing better than England despite all the obstacles flung at them, all this unionist crap about doing their day job is a real joke given the state of the UK and Boris in hiding.
    Not backed up on our Scots social media where there is considerable dismay with the SNP. You are blinkered Malc
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:
    They really are buggering it up aren't they? The iron party discipline is disintegrating. Eek.
    Yes they are really struggling , 48 out of 59 MP's, polls showing over 50% support for upcoming Holyrood elections and another landslide , and they are doing it deliberately.
    Is Angus trying to get back as an MSP to give the SNP options when they need to replace Sturgeon.

    Otherwise this makes little sense...
    Yes. It's a race back to Edinburgh to be in place when the fall happens. It sort of reminds me of those Nazgols in Lord of the Rings racing back to Mount Doom when they realise Frodo has dropped the ring in the volcano.
    Cherry would be a good leader in my opinion.
    I actually think so too. It's not a big thing comparatively, but Angus Robertson was one of the worst troughers in the expenses scandal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    TOPPING said:

    LOL

    ??

    I was interested. You're a big big fan of the noble art, aren't you?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    I'm not the first to say this, but why does the market still have Sanders as almost evens?

    Because they can’t quite believe the Dems would be so fucking stupid as to pick a 79 year old Socialist with a heart condition who isn’t even a Dem to go up against a nutcase like Trump that they really, really need to beat?
    Indeed, hence the market that’s 11% under-round. Sanders should be at least a 65% chance rather than 52%.
    It’s @rottenborough i feel sorry for.

    Oh, and the rest of us at having the serious risk of four more years of this psychotic in the White House.
    Has US politics ever been in a worse state
    It’s no worse than the UK!
    That is plainly absurd
    Johnson = Trump
    Labour = Sanders
    So not absurd unless one is a fawning disciple of Johnson.
    Bitter remainers trying to paint Boris as Trump is all they have left
    It’s nothing to do with remain or leave it’s taking a cold detached look at the individuals involved who share many character traits and political tactics.
    Of course it is. If Boris was an ardent fan of the EU you would be singing his praises
    I doubt it
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    I'm not the first to say this, but why does the market still have Sanders as almost evens?

    Because they can’t quite believe the Dems would be so fucking stupid as to pick a 79 year old Socialist with a heart condition who isn’t even a Dem to go up against a nutcase like Trump that they really, really need to beat?
    Indeed, hence the market that’s 11% under-round. Sanders should be at least a 65% chance rather than 52%.
    It’s @rottenborough i feel sorry for.

    Oh, and the rest of us at having the serious risk of four more years of this psychotic in the White House.
    Has US politics ever been in a worse state
    It’s no worse than the UK!
    That is plainly absurd
    Is it?

    https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1231491268309549056?s=09
    That was discussed on Marr this morning and Marr himself said it was a good idea
    That the security services do not trust the Home Sec?

    I suspect not the only one at the heart of government who cannot be trusted with official intelligence.
    They pass it to Boris, knowing full well Boris shares with Cabinet. But they get to claim "nothing to do with me, Guv....."
  • kinabalu said:

    Bitter remainers trying to paint Boris as Trump is all they have left

    Well you know I'm not a bitter Remainer so let me give you my take -

    Trump is a borderline moron and is wholly malevolent in spirit. Johnson is neither of those things. There is simply no comparison.

    But a big thing they do have in common is being in politics purely for their own gratification - i.e. an absence of integrity or sense of public service.

    And Johnson is certainly lifting some techniques from the Trump playbook.
    And that is a fair comment
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    edited February 2020
    One thing the new CoTE should do is cut NI contributions - would give all working Scots an income tax cut and offset some of the recent grabs on income introduced by the SNP.

    NI is not devolved.
  • Six Nations: backed Ireland to beat England at 3.4.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    kamski said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    I'm not the first to say this, but why does the market still have Sanders as almost evens?

    Because they can’t quite believe the Dems would be so fucking stupid as to pick a 79 year old Socialist with a heart condition who isn’t even a Dem to go up against a nutcase like Trump that they really, really need to beat?
    Indeed, hence the market that’s 11% under-round. Sanders should be at least a 65% chance rather than 52%.
    It’s @rottenborough i feel sorry for.

    Oh, and the rest of us at having the serious risk of four more years of this psychotic in the White House.
    :lol: Many thanks for your concern. I am as red on Sanders as a very red thing.

    Looks like I am going to take a beating. Just can't believe Dems are this stupid.

    I am beginning to wonder whether USA is having a massive collective breakdown.
    Would Sanders be a good president? If not, which Dem candidate would be better?

    Personally, I would say he would obviously be better than Trump, and probably better than most of the previous presidents. Which suggests that if they are having a breakdown it's been going on for quite some time.

    The question isn't 'would Sanders be a good President?' It is can he win against Trump? The answer is a resounding NO.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    edited February 2020

    Interesting exchange with Warren:

    In Seattle, she addressed a crowd of around 7,000. A supporter asked her who she’d choose as a running mate if she were nominated.

    “I would be presumptuous at this moment to talk about it, but what I can do is describe,” she said. “That is, I want to partner in this fight. That’s it.”

    I know she was being asked who she'd like as her Number 2. But her response suggests she might be up for being VP herself. That would double down on the "change" message. But I think Sanders might be better off with Klobouchar, giving mid-West, moderate and gender balance.

    Dems cannot afford to choose a VP who is a Senator from a purple state like Minnesota.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    edited February 2020

    ydoethur said:
    I wouldn't masquerade as a regular Boris supporter, but in fairness he's perfectly capable of mastering a complex brief if he wants to. He rang me out of the blue (in my day job capacity) when he was preparing to stand for the leadership to ask for a briefing on live exports, as he was going to write a Telegraph piece on the issue. We talked for about 15 minutes on the detail and it all appeared a couple of days later, entirely accurately summarised.

    The difference from Mrs T is perhaps that she positively liked absorbing lots of detail about everything, whereas he is, I think, somewhat more selective.
    That’s a nice anecdote, Nick.

    It says a lot about you, that you’re able to talk positively about interactions with Conservative MPs and ministers that you’ve encountered as a result of your day job.
    #toriesfornickpalmer
  • malcolmg said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:
    SNP has more talent on show just for selection in one seat than all the unionist parties can raise in total.
    The ex MP loser who knew about Salmond but was too loyal to report vs the female lawyer who is outraged he has even been charged.

    They certainly have a talent for something..
    Touch of green cheese there Harry, I presume neither of them are in the LOL
    Harry's on a roll with his Scotch insights after predicting the SNP Glasgow council leader was for the chop. She has resigned, right?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386

    Six Nations: backed Ireland to beat England at 3.4.

    If that transpires, the RFU need to rethink Eddie Jones. The French Defence Coach has also been a successful Head Coach in his own right.

    Shaun Edwards was the difference between Wales and France yesterday.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2020

    ydoethur said:
    They really are buggering it up aren't they? The iron party discipline is disintegrating. Eek.
    Does this mean that the SNP honeymoon is over?
    I think I spot Peak SNP.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Six Nations: backed Ireland to beat England at 3.4.

    Agreed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    TGOHF666 said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:
    Ooh, an SNP civil war over a marginal seat selection.

    This is going to be like like watching the feminists and the trans activists having a discussion over Labour Party policy - something best done from as far away as possible!
    It is called competition , where do you get "civil war" from. Luckily the SNP have so much talent it is unlike the Westminster parties in not having to put up any old donkey or lickspittle chum they can drag of the streets.
    Which candidate do you favour Malc?
    unless Alex could make a comeback which is highly unlikely.
    .
    Convicts will now have the vote in Scotland malc - next step is to allow them to stand for office..
    Innocent until proven Guilty Harry, I know unionists can stitch up many things but this will be too public even for their tricks.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Six Nations: backed Ireland to beat England at 3.4.

    If that transpires, the RFU need to rethink Eddie Jones. The French Defence Coach has also been a successful Head Coach in his own right.

    Shaun Edwards was the difference between Wales and France yesterday.
    Edwards is why I backed France for the championship, in 2008 Edwards and Gatland transformed a shambolic shit show of a Welsh team into Grandslam winner in a matter of weeks.

    France have all the raw materials but a decade of disaster at the coaching level. Getting Edwards in there for 4 and a half years is the best move they could have possibly made. I am furious that the SRU didn't get him and instead got Steve fucking Tandy.
  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:
    I wouldn't masquerade as a regular Boris supporter, but in fairness he's perfectly capable of mastering a complex brief if he wants to. He rang me out of the blue (in my day job capacity) when he was preparing to stand for the leadership to ask for a briefing on live exports, as he was going to write a Telegraph piece on the issue. We talked for about 15 minutes on the detail and it all appeared a couple of days later, entirely accurately summarised.

    The difference from Mrs T is perhaps that she positively liked absorbing lots of detail about everything, whereas he is, I think, somewhat more selective.
    That’s a nice anecdote, Nick.

    It says a lot about you, that you’re able to talk positively about interactions with Conservative MPs and ministers that you’ve encountered as a result of your day job.
    #toriesfornickpalmer
    +1
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone give (or link to) a non-libellous non-contempt-of-court summary of what's happening in Scottish politics? I know about the Salmond case, but have only vaguely heard some umours about Sturgeon, and there seems to be some factional rivalry in the SNP too. What's up?
    There have been rumours for some time that Nicola was looking for an international exit but not finding one. The SNP are split between those that want a referendum right now and those who want to do things properly with Westminster consent. The latter also recognise that right now might not be the best time and want a better indication than the polls are giving that a second referendum might pass.

    Nicola leads the second group but Boris's blunt responses are making her look weak. When you add in the speculation about the possible fall out of the trial possible leadership candidates are desperate to get into Holyrood. This is likely to result in a serious competition for Ruth's SNIP
    David, Mackay was always a lightweight, how he ever got to where he was is a mystery. He was never ever going to be leader in a month of Sundays for many reasons including serious lack of talent and charisma.
    PS: Robertson is the next leader as long as he does not just show himself as a clone of Sturgeon. He has far more talent but people are getting fed up and beginning to think current leadership are getting fat and happy with the current status quo.
    Maybe they should do their day job which they are failing at rather than internal fighting over power bases

    The next month looks like a shambles for the SNP and will Nicola survive
    G, on almost every measure Scotland under the SNP is doing better than England despite all the obstacles flung at them, all this unionist crap about doing their day job is a real joke given the state of the UK and Boris in hiding.
    Not backed up on our Scots social media where there is considerable dismay with the SNP. You are blinkered Malc
    You must be looking at only unionist social media G, reality of the situation with them getting more and more popular at every election shows you are mistaken.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:
    They really are buggering it up aren't they? The iron party discipline is disintegrating. Eek.
    Yes they are really struggling , 48 out of 59 MP's, polls showing over 50% support for upcoming Holyrood elections and another landslide , and they are doing it deliberately.
    Is Angus trying to get back as an MSP to give the SNP options when they need to replace Sturgeon.

    Otherwise this makes little sense...
    Yes. It's a race back to Edinburgh to be in place when the fall happens. It sort of reminds me of those Nazgols in Lord of the Rings racing back to Mount Doom when they realise Frodo has dropped the ring in the volcano.
    Cherry would be a good leader in my opinion.
    I actually think so too. It's not a big thing comparatively, but Angus Robertson was one of the worst troughers in the expenses scandal.
    you got numbers for that, he did live as far away as you could get so you would expect him to be among the highest cost MP's.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Alistair said:

    Six Nations: backed Ireland to beat England at 3.4.

    If that transpires, the RFU need to rethink Eddie Jones. The French Defence Coach has also been a successful Head Coach in his own right.

    Shaun Edwards was the difference between Wales and France yesterday.
    Edwards is why I backed France for the championship, in 2008 Edwards and Gatland transformed a shambolic shit show of a Welsh team into Grandslam winner in a matter of weeks.

    France have all the raw materials but a decade of disaster at the coaching level. Getting Edwards in there for 4 and a half years is the best move they could have possibly made. I am furious that the SRU didn't get him and instead got Steve fucking Tandy.
    Pivac, Jones and Townsend are all overrated. Edwards is underrated, success at Wasps suggests he has what it takes to be an International Head Coach.

    Personally I think Edwards carried Warren for 12 years.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    TGOHF666 said:

    One thing the new CoTE should do is cut NI contributions - would give all working Scots an income tax cut and offset some of the recent grabs on income introduced by the SNP.

    NI is not devolved.

    Would that be the proven fact , forced out of Tories in Westminster , that 56% of Scottish people pay less tax than their English counterparts and if you count the additional free services it becomes 100%.
    Greedy selfish Unionists do not like helping the majority of people , seem to prefer the few percent at the top, very progressive.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    nunu2 said:

    Interesting exchange with Warren:

    In Seattle, she addressed a crowd of around 7,000. A supporter asked her who she’d choose as a running mate if she were nominated.

    “I would be presumptuous at this moment to talk about it, but what I can do is describe,” she said. “That is, I want to partner in this fight. That’s it.”

    I know she was being asked who she'd like as her Number 2. But her response suggests she might be up for being VP herself. That would double down on the "change" message. But I think Sanders might be better off with Klobouchar, giving mid-West, moderate and gender balance.

    Dems cannot afford to choose a VP who is a Senator from a purple state like Minnesota.
    she won 60% vs 36% in 2018. At the same time the dems won the special election to replace Franken 53-42, so should be ok especially in the circumstances of dems having won the presidency.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    TGOHF666 said:
    Dear Dear Harry, must be taxing having the mind of a 10 year old.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.

    Don't tell @realDonaldTrump this because he'll get very nervous—we're going to beat him in Texas.

    — Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) February 23, 2020
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:
    They really are buggering it up aren't they? The iron party discipline is disintegrating. Eek.
    Does this mean that the SNP honeymoon is over?
    I think I spot Peak SNP.
    Tory surge coming up soon once Carcrash gets motoring.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:
    SNP has more talent on show just for selection in one seat than all the unionist parties can raise in total.
    The ex MP loser who knew about Salmond but was too loyal to report vs the female lawyer who is outraged he has even been charged.

    They certainly have a talent for something..
    Touch of green cheese there Harry, I presume neither of them are in the LOL
    Harry's on a roll with his Scotch insights after predicting the SNP Glasgow council leader was for the chop. She has resigned, right?
    It is all that insight he gets from the Daily Express
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    kamski said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    I'm not the first to say this, but why does the market still have Sanders as almost evens?

    Because they can’t quite believe the Dems would be so fucking stupid as to pick a 79 year old Socialist with a heart condition who isn’t even a Dem to go up against a nutcase like Trump that they really, really need to beat?
    Indeed, hence the market that’s 11% under-round. Sanders should be at least a 65% chance rather than 52%.
    It’s @rottenborough i feel sorry for.

    Oh, and the rest of us at having the serious risk of four more years of this psychotic in the White House.
    :lol: Many thanks for your concern. I am as red on Sanders as a very red thing.

    Looks like I am going to take a beating. Just can't believe Dems are this stupid.

    I am beginning to wonder whether USA is having a massive collective breakdown.
    Would Sanders be a good president? If not, which Dem candidate would be better?

    Personally, I would say he would obviously be better than Trump, and probably better than most of the previous presidents. Which suggests that if they are having a breakdown it's been going on for quite some time.

    The question isn't 'would Sanders be a good President?' It is can he win against Trump? The answer is a resounding NO.
    Well that is a different question, and it isn't obvious to everyone that Sanders would have a worse chance against Trump than any of the other candidates. But it's not the only question anyone is allowed to ask. What's your answer?

    And voting for the person you think would make the best president doesn't seem to be especially stupid or a sign of a breakdown, especially when second-guessing who would likely do better or worse in the general election doesn't always work out that well - weren't there reports in 2016 of some Democrat supporters voting Trump in Republican primaries because he would so obviously lose in a landslide in the General? And plenty of people arguing that Clinton was obviously more electable - which seems implausible looking at what happened.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:
    I wouldn't masquerade as a regular Boris supporter, but in fairness he's perfectly capable of mastering a complex brief if he wants to. He rang me out of the blue (in my day job capacity) when he was preparing to stand for the leadership to ask for a briefing on live exports, as he was going to write a Telegraph piece on the issue. We talked for about 15 minutes on the detail and it all appeared a couple of days later, entirely accurately summarised.

    The difference from Mrs T is perhaps that she positively liked absorbing lots of detail about everything, whereas he is, I think, somewhat more selective.
    That’s a nice anecdote, Nick.

    It says a lot about you, that you’re able to talk positively about interactions with Conservative MPs and ministers that you’ve encountered as a result of your day job.
    #toriesfornickpalmer
    Interesting on several levels:

    - Nick is the go-to guy on animal welfare, across the political divide. Kudos.

    - Boris sufficiently non-partisan to seek out that advice. And hopefully, to implement it.

    - Boris absorbed the briefing and "got it". Kinda gives the lie to the "too lazy to be arsed" line.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    8 now dead in Iran of Covid-19. Indicates a minimum of 400 cases of which they seem to have traced...43. If their trends are the same as the Chinese the number currently infected may well be 10x 400.
    https://www.khaleejtimes.com/coronavirus-outbreak/COVID-19-Iran-says-in-total-43-infected-with-coronavirus-8-dead-

    This is sub-optimal.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    DavidL said:

    8 now dead in Iran of Covid-19. Indicates a minimum of 400 cases of which they seem to have traced...43. If their trends are the same as the Chinese the number currently infected may well be 10x 400.
    https://www.khaleejtimes.com/coronavirus-outbreak/COVID-19-Iran-says-in-total-43-infected-with-coronavirus-8-dead-

    This is sub-optimal.

    Would be ironic if after 40 years of American efforts, it’s the Chinese that end up toppling the ayatollahs
  • Well that second fight lived up to expectations, Tyson Fury was just phenomenal. If I was Wilder I wouldn't be asking for a rematch, as going to get duffed up again.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Nevada latest: 50% of precincts in, 9 of the 36 Pledged delegates are for Sanders - everybody else on 0.
  • Something that Unionists here and elsewhere should be mulling over.

    https://twitter.com/MammothWhale/status/1231527162131501059?s=20
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    I'm not the first to say this, but why does the market still have Sanders as almost evens?

    Because they can’t quite believe the Dems would be so fucking stupid as to pick a 79 year old Socialist with a heart condition who isn’t even a Dem to go up against a nutcase like Trump that they really, really need to beat?
    Indeed, hence the market that’s 11% under-round. Sanders should be at least a 65% chance rather than 52%.
    It’s @rottenborough i feel sorry for.

    Oh, and the rest of us at having the serious risk of four more years of this psychotic in the White House.
    :lol: Many thanks for your concern. I am as red on Sanders as a very red thing.

    Looks like I am going to take a beating. Just can't believe Dems are this stupid.

    I am beginning to wonder whether USA is having a massive collective breakdown.
    Would Sanders be a good president? If not, which Dem candidate would be better?

    Personally, I would say he would obviously be better than Trump, and probably better than most of the previous presidents. Which suggests that if they are having a breakdown it's been going on for quite some time.

    The question isn't 'would Sanders be a good President?' It is can he win against Trump? The answer is a resounding NO.
    Well that is a different question, and it isn't obvious to everyone that Sanders would have a worse chance against Trump than any of the other candidates. But it's not the only question anyone is allowed to ask. What's your answer?

    And voting for the person you think would make the best president doesn't seem to be especially stupid or a sign of a breakdown, especially when second-guessing who would likely do better or worse in the general election doesn't always work out that well - weren't there reports in 2016 of some Democrat supporters voting Trump in Republican primaries because he would so obviously lose in a landslide in the General? And plenty of people arguing that Clinton was obviously more electable - which seems implausible looking at what happened.
    You are free to ask whatever questions you like.

    My point, as a spectator is worrying about whether Sanders would be a good or bad President is irrelevant if he can't win against Trump.it is a perfectly legitimate question for anyone with a vote.

    You are quite right about the rest of the field more likely than not struggling against Trump. It is just the USA is not ready for anyone who can be labelled 'socialist'.
  • Sandpit said:

    It says a lot about you, that you’re able to talk positively about interactions with Conservative MPs and ministers that you’ve encountered as a result of your day job.
    #toriesfornickpalmer

    It must have been so tempting just to stick a little pisstake detail in there
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    kinabalu said:

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.

    Don't tell @realDonaldTrump this because he'll get very nervous—we're going to beat him in Texas.

    — Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) February 23, 2020
    Just like Jeremy Corbyn was preparing for government in December?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
    I think Bloomberg as an independent would take more off Trump than Sanders.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Who might Bloomberg’s VP pick be as an indie candidate?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Don't really see who would vote Bloomberg over Trump who didn't vote Hillary over Trump.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:
    They really are buggering it up aren't they? The iron party discipline is disintegrating. Eek.
    Does this mean that the SNP honeymoon is over?
    I think I spot Peak SNP.
    You spotted 2016? Well done.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Barnesian said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
    I think Bloomberg as an independent would take more off Trump than Sanders.
    Bloomberg is the one with the data that confirms it either way. You are free to laugh at me in a few weeks. But I have to wonder about Bloomberg’s strategy of ceasefire for the first few contests and then all guns blazing for Super Tuesday. This is exactly what I’d do if I were setting out as a third party candidate from the off but wanted to build momentum and ground game during the primaries.
  • Who might Bloomberg’s VP pick be as an indie candidate?

    Mitt Romney
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
    I suspect Bloomberg would balk at the notion of a Sanders Presidency, which is probably one of the reasons why he entered the race. Bloomberg's detestation of Trump can't be underestimated either.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751

    Don't really see who would vote Bloomberg over Trump who didn't vote Hillary over Trump.

    Lots of people. Hillary was reviled even by quite moderate Republicans.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386

    Who might Bloomberg’s VP pick be as an indie candidate?

    Mitt Romney
    Good call!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Barnesian said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
    I think Bloomberg as an independent would take more off Trump than Sanders.
    Don't see it, I am afraid.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone give (or link to) a non-libellous non-contempt-of-court summary of what's happening in Scottish politics? I know about the Salmond case, but have only vaguely heard some umours about Sturgeon, and there seems to be some factional rivalry in the SNP too. What's up?
    There have been rumours for some time that Nicola was looking for an international exit but not finding one. The SNP are split between those that want a referendum right now and those who want to do things properly with Westminster consent. The latter also recognise that right now might not be the best time and want a better indication than the polls are giving that a second referendum might pass.

    Nicola leads the second group but Boris's blunt responses are making her look weak. When you add in the speculation about the possible fall out of the trial possible leadership candidates are desperate to get into Holyrood. This is likely to result in a serious competition for Ruth's SNIP
    David, Mackay was always a lightweight, how he ever got to where he was is a mystery. He was never ever going to be leader in a month of Sundays for many reasons including serious lack of talent and charisma.
    PS: Robertson is the next leader as long as he does not just show himself as a clone of Sturgeon. He has far more talent but people are getting fed up and beginning to think current leadership are getting fat and happy with the current status quo.
    Maybe they should do their day job which they are failing at rather than internal fighting over power bases

    The next month looks like a shambles for the SNP and will Nicola survive
    G, on almost every measure Scotland under the SNP is doing better than England despite all the obstacles flung at them, all this unionist crap about doing their day job is a real joke given the state of the UK and Boris in hiding.
    Not backed up on our Scots social media where there is considerable dismay with the SNP. You are blinkered Malc
    You must be looking at only unionist social media G, reality of the situation with them getting more and more popular at every election shows you are mistaken.
    Not really. Our Scots social media includes SNP supporters and even they are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    A three-way contest will see votes going all over the place, it could be genuinely unpredictable and a few States going to MB could upset the Electoral College somewhat.

    What I think puts Trump in pole position in this scenario, is that the whole Republican Party machine will be squarely behind their man. I'm not sure that the same could be said of the Democrat machine lining up behind Sanders.
  • Who might Bloomberg’s VP pick be as an indie candidate?

    Mitt Romney
    Good call!
    Remember how during the impeachment Romney came out against Trump and everybody said, whoa, it turns out Romney is a rare example of an honourable politician true to their oath of office regardless of personal advancement? If you don't think that explanation is credible, this would be an alternative one...
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Are we testing and quarantining all the Scots rugby fans and squad on their return from Italy?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    A three-way contest will see votes going all over the place, it could be genuinely unpredictable and a few States going to MB could upset the Electoral College somewhat.

    What I think puts Trump in pole position in this scenario, is that the whole Republican Party machine will be squarely behind their man. I'm not sure that the same could be said of the Democrat machine lining up behind Sanders.
    For example, who wins California? And New York?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?
  • Something that Unionists here and elsewhere should be mulling over.

    https://twitter.com/MammothWhale/status/1231527162131501059?s=20

    Yes because it indicates an internal SNP civil war
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:
    They really are buggering it up aren't they? The iron party discipline is disintegrating. Eek.
    Yes they are really struggling , 48 out of 59 MP's, polls showing over 50% support for upcoming Holyrood elections and another landslide , and they are doing it deliberately.
    Is Angus trying to get back as an MSP to give the SNP options when they need to replace Sturgeon.

    Otherwise this makes little sense...
    Yes. It's a race back to Edinburgh to be in place when the fall happens. It sort of reminds me of those Nazgols in Lord of the Rings racing back to Mount Doom when they realise Frodo has dropped the ring in the volcano.
    Cherry would be a good leader in my opinion.
    I actually think so too. It's not a big thing comparatively, but Angus Robertson was one of the worst troughers in the expenses scandal.
    you got numbers for that, he did live as far away as you could get so you would expect him to be among the highest cost MP's.
    He was the MP who had most claims rejected by the fees office. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/12099959/SNP-Westminster-leader-Angus-Robertson-has-most-expenses-claims-rejected-of-any-serving-MP.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    Yes, its possible. Trump is not just morally repulsive, he is also incompetent. He can beat himself.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    First count

    Sanders 34.4%
    Biden 17.5%
    Buttigieg 15.9%
    Warren 13.2%
    Klob 9.7%
    Steyer 8.9%
    Gabbard 0.4%

    Final count
    Sanders 40.6%
    Biden 18.7%
    Buttigieg 18.1%
    Warren 11.7%
    Klob 7.3%
    Steyer 3.6%
    Gabbard 0.01%

    County delegates

    Sanders 46.6%
    Biden 19.2%
    Buttigieg 15.4%
    Warren 10.3%
    Klobuchar 4.5%
    Steyer 3.8%
    Gabbard 0.1%
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    nichomar said:

    Are we testing and quarantining all the Scots rugby fans and squad on their return from Italy?

    I think we should be testing the Scottish rugby squad for several things after that performance, not necessarily a virus.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386

    Who might Bloomberg’s VP pick be as an indie candidate?

    Mitt Romney
    Good call!
    Remember how during the impeachment Romney came out against Trump and everybody said, whoa, it turns out Romney is a rare example of an honourable politician true to their oath of office regardless of personal advancement? If you don't think that explanation is credible, this would be an alternative one...
    If Bloomberg were to stand as an Independent (big IF) Romney would be a great pick. Unless the economy tanks between now and November I can only see a Trump second term.

    If Coronavirus grinds the Chinese economy to a halt, the fallout could affect the US economy negatively. Then, who knows
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2020
    moonshine said:

    Don't really see who would vote Bloomberg over Trump who didn't vote Hillary over Trump.

    Lots of people. Hillary was reviled even by quite moderate Republicans.
    But largely they are economic liberals. Sure they don't like Trump much, but they're not going to risk Sanders as president. So Bloomberg would only be fishing in a pool as large as Republicans who voted for Hillary in 2016.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    For sure. I will be surprised and bitterly disappointed if he doesn't.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2020
    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Sanders has always been super strong with young people. The reason he lost to Hilary was that he was incredibly weak with old white voters (i.e. People who vote)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    There seems to be next to no information on how State equivalent delegates are allocated online.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    Very, very, highly unlikely.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    edited February 2020
    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Theoretically, Betfair is banned in the USA. There’s also a US site called PredictIt that’s banned in the UK.

    If you can manage to get an account with both, there’s usually some arb opportunities from understanding the differences in thinking between UK and US- based customers betting on the same market. From memory in 2016, a couple of US-based PBers were rather helpful in identifying these differences and spotting value on Betfair.

  • Not really. Our Scots social media includes SNP supporters and even they are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland

    Don't be shy, pop up a few tweets from these SNP supporters that are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland. Did they coincidentally also used to think that Brexit and BJ were shyte but actually quite like both now?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    I do. Bernie channels anger. He's no Corbyn who was too much the gentleman and not prepared to get personal. Bernie is a first name person. Bernie is head of an enormous multi-racial, all ages family that rivals Trump's. He is best placed to beat Trump. Democrat activists seem to agree with me.
  • kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    For sure. I will be surprised and bitterly disappointed if he doesn't.
    I am a blank page on US politics and want Trump gone but reading this forum of very knowledgeable posters the consensus is Saunders has no chance, and even I cannot see the US electing a Corbyn style president to be fair
  • moonshine said:

    Barnesian said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
    I think Bloomberg as an independent would take more off Trump than Sanders.
    Bloomberg is the one with the data that confirms it either way. You are free to laugh at me in a few weeks. But I have to wonder about Bloomberg’s strategy of ceasefire for the first few contests and then all guns blazing for Super Tuesday. This is exactly what I’d do if I were setting out as a third party candidate from the off but wanted to build momentum and ground game during the primaries.
    Good point, Bloomberg is very much data driven.
    He has said that he will back the Democratic nominee against Trump, I hope that holds even if it is Sanders.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Theoretically, Betfair is banned in the USA. There’s also a US site called PredictIt that’s banned in the UK.

    If you can manage to get an account with both, there’s usually some arb opportunities from understanding the differences in thinking between UK and US- based customers betting on the same market. From memory in 2016, a couple of US-based PBers were rather helpful in identifying these differences and spotting value on Betfair.
    Thanks. I spot an opportunity.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    edited February 2020

    Just like Jeremy Corbyn was preparing for government in December?

    No. More like Sinn Fein were feeling upbeat in Ireland a couple of weeks ago.

    In fact, to be serious for a second, I prefer your position to mine. If you are right and it's a Trump landslide, then you have called it, you're a shrewdy, and (if you're a bettor) will have made money. And if you're very wrong, Trump out, then you will have that glorious event to celebrate along with every person of sound mind and good character on the planet.

    Whereas me, I'm exposed every which way - kudoswise, moneywise, and above all politically and emotionally and spiritually. If I'm wrong I lose it all.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751

    moonshine said:

    Barnesian said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    I understand your logic, but no I can't see an outcome other than a Trump second term.
    If Bloomberg was a bit more charismatic I guess I might be on to something. I do wonder though how Bloomberg sees a Sanders Presidency relative to a Trump second term. Despite what he says, he might follow your logic and think what the hell, at worst I stop Sanders and at best I sneak it.
    I think Bloomberg as an independent would take more off Trump than Sanders.
    Bloomberg is the one with the data that confirms it either way. You are free to laugh at me in a few weeks. But I have to wonder about Bloomberg’s strategy of ceasefire for the first few contests and then all guns blazing for Super Tuesday. This is exactly what I’d do if I were setting out as a third party candidate from the off but wanted to build momentum and ground game during the primaries.
    Good point, Bloomberg is very much data driven.
    He has said that he will back the Democratic nominee against Trump, I hope that holds even if it is Sanders.
    Anyone stateside (Robert?), would be interested to know proportion of Bloomberg ads that are already anti Trump rather than more primary focused.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    Barnesian said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Theoretically, Betfair is banned in the USA. There’s also a US site called PredictIt that’s banned in the UK.

    If you can manage to get an account with both, there’s usually some arb opportunities from understanding the differences in thinking between UK and US- based customers betting on the same market. From memory in 2016, a couple of US-based PBers were rather helpful in identifying these differences and spotting value on Betfair.
    Thanks. I spot an opportunity.
    Online gambling in the US is less regulated now than it used to be. There’s a few “sports book” websites that have popped up in recent years, but wouldn’t dare suggest which are the legit ones. I guess the legit ones actually validate that the billing address of your card matches with the bank. ;)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    First count

    Sanders 34.4%
    Biden 17.5%
    Buttigieg 15.9%
    Warren 13.2%
    Klob 9.7%
    Steyer 8.9%
    Gabbard 0.4%

    Final count
    Sanders 40.6%
    Biden 18.7%
    Buttigieg 18.1%
    Warren 11.7%
    Klob 7.3%
    Steyer 3.6%
    Gabbard 0.01%

    County delegates

    Sanders 46.6%
    Biden 19.2%
    Buttigieg 15.4%
    Warren 10.3%
    Klobuchar 4.5%
    Steyer 3.8%
    Gabbard 0.1%

    Terrible for Warren.

  • Not really. Our Scots social media includes SNP supporters and even they are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland

    Don't be shy, pop up a few tweets from these SNP supporters that are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland. Did they coincidentally also used to think that Brexit and BJ were shyte but actually quite like both now?
    So Scotland under the SNP is an utopia beyond reproach even by some of the governments supporters
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    I think he's most likely to of all the democratic candidates
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    @TOPPING

    Unfortunately for one and all, I have to wrench myself off the thread to go outside for a prolonged period. But on that question of great British boxing performances to compare with last night, can I suggest one. Feel free to poo poo with your much better cred on this topic but here we go, what's the harm -

    Munich 72. Minter v Hamani. The bout which secured for "Boom Boom" an Olympic bronze.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Haven't you lost enough money convincing yourself that backing the candidate you wanted to win was an impartial rational decision?

  • Not really. Our Scots social media includes SNP supporters and even they are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland

    Don't be shy, pop up a few tweets from these SNP supporters that are expressing concern at the neglect of the domestic agenda in Scotland. Did they coincidentally also used to think that Brexit and BJ were shyte but actually quite like both now?
    So Scotland under the SNP is an utopia beyond reproach even by some of the governments supporters
    I didn't say that, I asked for some examples of the 'concerned' SNP supporters that you claim exist. I assume by your retreat into strawman-ism that they will not be forthcoming.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    I am a blank page on US politics and want Trump gone but reading this forum of very knowledgeable posters the consensus is Saunders has no chance, and even I cannot see the US electing a Corbyn style president to be fair

    Let's chat on November 4th.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    A three-way contest will see votes going all over the place, it could be genuinely unpredictable and a few States going to MB could upset the Electoral College somewhat.

    What I think puts Trump in pole position in this scenario, is that the whole Republican Party machine will be squarely behind their man. I'm not sure that the same could be said of the Democrat machine lining up behind Sanders.
    Whatever happens, only two candidates will win any electoral college votes. The Republican and the Democrat candidates.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    kinabalu said:

    Just like Jeremy Corbyn was preparing for government in December?

    No. More like Sinn Fein were feeling upbeat in Ireland a couple of weeks ago.

    In fact, to be serious for a second, I prefer your position to mine. If you are right and it's a Trump landslide, then you have called it, you're a shrewdy, and (if you're a bettor) will have made money. And if you're very wrong, Trump out, then you will have that glorious event to celebrate along with every person of sound mind and good character on the planet.

    Whereas me, I'm exposed every which way - kudoswise, moneywise, and above all politically and emotionally and spiritually. If I'm wrong I lose it all.
    If Sanders wins then centrists will have a horrifying truth to face up to: President Trump would never have needed to happen. It would have been them, by supporting Hillary in the primaries last time, who put him in the white house
  • kinabalu said:

    I am a blank page on US politics and want Trump gone but reading this forum of very knowledgeable posters the consensus is Saunders has no chance, and even I cannot see the US electing a Corbyn style president to be fair

    Let's chat on November 4th.
    Lets hope between now and then the US comes to its senses
  • Who do the Sanders rampers blame when he gets beaten by Trump? The Democratic establishment, obviously - but who else?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited February 2020

    Who do the Sanders rampers blame when he gets beaten by Trump? The Democratic establishment, obviously - but who else?

    It will be like here with Labour, everybody / everything else, definitely not the individual or the policies.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    maaarsh said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Haven't you lost enough money convincing yourself that backing the candidate you wanted to win was an impartial rational decision?
    I'm substantially ahead on my political betting overall.

    But you are right to make the point. It is too easy to post rationalise an emotional position. You have to guard against it all the time.

    There are other guidelines I think.

    Avoid false analogies.

    Avoid believing the worst will happen (so you are never disappointed and sometimes pleasantly surprised).

    Perhaps someone could come up with a list of guidelines to successful betting?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Pulpstar said:

    First count

    Sanders 34.4%
    Biden 17.5%
    Buttigieg 15.9%
    Warren 13.2%
    Klob 9.7%
    Steyer 8.9%
    Gabbard 0.4%

    Final count
    Sanders 40.6%
    Biden 18.7%
    Buttigieg 18.1%
    Warren 11.7%
    Klob 7.3%
    Steyer 3.6%
    Gabbard 0.01%

    County delegates

    Sanders 46.6%
    Biden 19.2%
    Buttigieg 15.4%
    Warren 10.3%
    Klobuchar 4.5%
    Steyer 3.8%
    Gabbard 0.1%

    I don't know the weights for county vs statewide, but he split of the 36 pledged delegates will be very roughly
    Sanders 20
    Biden 9
    Buttigieg 7

    Making the nationwide race approximately:
    48 Sanders
    30 Buttigieg
    15 Biden
    8 Warren
    7 Klobuchar

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Sanders has always been super strong with young people. The reason he lost to Hilary was that he was incredibly weak with old white voters (i.e. People who vote)
    There will be plenty who turn out for him purely because of Trump. Among them a few Republicans.
    The US might not be ready for a socialist President (and I think he’d have severe problems with Congress) but they may be just about to get one.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2020
    eristdoof said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Is the thinking on Mayor Mike that he’s gonna run in the general whether he gets the nomination or otherwise, just for shits and giggles?

    I’d say under electoral college, Sanders vs Trump vs Bloomberg would not be as predictable as assumed

    My assumption is it would be predictable. It would be a Trump landslide.

    Even without an Independent Bloomberg, against Bernie we are looking at a massive Trump victory.
    That‘s popular wisdom of course. But Bloomberg was a Republican mayor of New York that endorsed George W. And Trump is also no ordinary Republican President. I can envisage quite a lot of Trump to Bloomberg switchers, on top of motivating the 2016 stay at homes to turn out for him.

    And given Sanders is also no ordinary Democrat, there would no doubt be potentially as many Democrat to Bloomberg switchers also, especially given he has most recently called himself a Democrat.

    Lastly Bloomberg would be no ordinary third party candidate, with both an established political record and a financial war chest that could outspend both parties out together.

    Let’s face it, none of these three have any party name tattooed to their political heart, which is what I think would make a threeway so interesting.
    A three-way contest will see votes going all over the place, it could be genuinely unpredictable and a few States going to MB could upset the Electoral College somewhat.

    What I think puts Trump in pole position in this scenario, is that the whole Republican Party machine will be squarely behind their man. I'm not sure that the same could be said of the Democrat machine lining up behind Sanders.
    Whatever happens, only two candidates will win any electoral college votes. The Republican and the Democrat candidates.
    The last third party candidate to win electoral college votes was Wallace in 1968.

    Not even Ross Perot managed that and Bloomberg is no Ross Perot.

    Sceptical Bloomberg would takes votes from Trump in states where it mattered.
  • Barnesian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    I do. Bernie channels anger. He's no Corbyn who was too much the gentleman and not prepared to get personal. Bernie is a first name person. Bernie is head of an enormous multi-racial, all ages family that rivals Trump's. He is best placed to beat Trump. Democrat activists seem to agree with me.
    Labour activists thought Corbyn could win.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    Barnesian said:

    maaarsh said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone any idea what proportion of the money going onto the US GE on Betfair is from UK punters?

    I have a feeling that the Sanders=Corbyn assumption is distorting the market.
    I think Sanders for President is a value bet.

    I watched a young Latino in Nevada say "We are family and Bernie is our father".

    Haven't you lost enough money convincing yourself that backing the candidate you wanted to win was an impartial rational decision?
    I'm substantially ahead on my political betting overall.

    But you are right to make the point. It is too easy to post rationalise an emotional position. You have to guard against it all the time.

    There are other guidelines I think.

    Avoid false analogies.

    Avoid believing the worst will happen (so you are never disappointed and sometimes pleasantly surprised).

    Perhaps someone could come up with a list of guidelines to successful betting?
    Numbers 1, 2 and 3: Make sure you distinguish between what you want to happen and what you think will happen. Bet only on the second and not on the first, most betting mistakes come from being insufficiently detached from your personal preference of outcome.

    At least, that's my excuse for laying Boris Johnson as next PM for three years, up until about a fortnight before he got elected!
  • Barnesian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think Bernie could beat Trump in November?

    I do. Bernie channels anger. He's no Corbyn who was too much the gentleman and not prepared to get personal. Bernie is a first name person. Bernie is head of an enormous multi-racial, all ages family that rivals Trump's. He is best placed to beat Trump. Democrat activists seem to agree with me.
    Labour activists thought Corbyn could win.
    He did win....he told us so.
This discussion has been closed.