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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trouble over bridged waters. Boris Johnson’s plan to link Scot

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited February 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trouble over bridged waters. Boris Johnson’s plan to link Scotland and Northern Ireland

While love can build a bridge, it’s far from clear that Boris Johnson can.  He planned one across the Thames, but that was scrapped.  Then he mooted one across the English Channel, to be shot down quickly.  Now he is shelling out public money to investigate the possibility of a bridge across the North Channel between Larne (half an hour from Belfast) and Portpatrick (50 lightyears from anywhere).  Is it going to be third time a charm for Boris Johnson?

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  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    edited February 2020
    Was this one where you had a title that just demanded a piece?

    Edit: not that there aren't several well made points I hasten to add!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    First.
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    Was this one where you had a title that just demanded a piece?

    Yes.
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    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.
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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,440
    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    edited February 2020

    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    I’ll start us off with the first one.

    The Tower of Babel.
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    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    Let's just start with a list of BJ's populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    I thought it was a pretty blatant attempt to precede the transport spending announcement with some manufactured context that would make HS2 (and associated projects) look like excellent value for money.

    This piece is good evidence that the strategy has worked.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    The "Get it done" mantra worries me, though. It worked for Brexit at GE2019, it was deployed yesterday for HS2, perhaps there will now be a pattern of suggest grotesquely stupid idea, let everybody argue themselves stupid about it for 10 years, and then present yourself as a can-do Gordian knot cutter with "Let's jolly well get the Irish bridge/the manned Mars mission/the Everest cable car done" and enjoy the plaudits.
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    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    Let's just start with a list of BJ's populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects.
    A list of Boris Johnson’s failed erections?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    CatMan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lennon said:

    I'm sure that you've already seen @MaxPB but the Chinese GP has been officially postponed - and comments already about struggling to put it somewhere else.

    The reason they’re saying ‘postponed’ is because neither the local promoter nor F1 can be allowed to be the person cancelling the event - a very large race fee paid by the former to the latter depends on this. The logistics of the modern F1 season make it very unlikely that the race can be rescheduled, so what will happen is that the teams will refuse to agree to a rescheduled date, and the promoter and F1 will split the difference on the race fee.
    They are saying the inaugural Vietnam GP might be postponed too.

    Plus there's the olympics this year...
    Yep, Vietnam must be close to being cancelled also. It’s a street circuit right in the middle of Hanoi, there’s no way they’re going to want 50,000 international visitors. The teams also might not want to travel, but in the absence of eg Foreign Office advice not to go there, they will have no choice about it.

    The Tokyo Olympic Committee must be checking their insurance policy very carefully right now - a future pub quiz question could be about why the 2020 Summer Games took place in 2021.
    Tokyo is as far from Wuhan as London is from Moscow, so unless there is much wider spread by then, the Olympics can probably go ahead but when must decisions be made?
    A very good question. I imagine that qualifying tournaments in some sports are already underway for the Olympics.

    I think the next couple of weeks are key, when we will see if there’s genuine spread of this virus across Asia, or if it’s mostly contained within China.

    If the Olympics are to be postponed, it would make sense to take the decision as early as possible, so that hundreds of thousands of people directly involved can make alternative plans. It’s a seriously difficult call to make, I wouldn’t want to be in the room
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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,440

    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    I’ll start us off with the first one.

    The Tower of Babylon.
    Marib dam collapse, not real populist but definitely historic.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.

    If Scotland does secede and there's a bridge will "join up with Scotland" be a choice in a border poll?
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    IshmaelZ said:

    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.

    If Scotland does secede and there's a bridge will "join up with Scotland" be a choice in a border poll?
    If the Scots had any sense they’d put destruction of the bridge in divorce negotiations.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    CatMan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lennon said:

    I'm sure that you've already seen @MaxPB but the Chinese GP has been officially postponed - and comments already about struggling to put it somewhere else.

    The reason they’re saying ‘postponed’ is because neither the local promoter nor F1 can be allowed to be the person cancelling the event - a very large race fee paid by the former to the latter depends on this. The logistics of the modern F1 season make it very unlikely that the race can be rescheduled, so what will happen is that the teams will refuse to agree to a rescheduled date, and the promoter and F1 will split the difference on the race fee.
    They are saying the inaugural Vietnam GP might be postponed too.

    Plus there's the olympics this year...
    Yep, Vietnam must be close to being cancelled also. It’s a street circuit right in the middle of Hanoi, there’s no way they’re going to want 50,000 international visitors. The teams also might not want to travel, but in the absence of eg Foreign Office advice not to go there, they will have no choice about it.

    The Tokyo Olympic Committee must be checking their insurance policy very carefully right now - a future pub quiz question could be about why the 2020 Summer Games took place in 2021.
    Tokyo is as far from Wuhan as London is from Moscow, so unless there is much wider spread by then, the Olympics can probably go ahead but when must decisions be made?
    A very good question. I imagine that qualifying tournaments in some sports are already underway for the Olympics.

    I think the next couple of weeks are key, when we will see if there’s genuine spread of this virus across Asia, or if it’s mostly contained within China.

    If the Olympics are to be postponed, it would make sense to take the decision as early as possible, so that hundreds of thousands of people directly involved can make alternative plans. It’s a seriously difficult call to make, I wouldn’t want to be in the room
    The UK were knocked out of the 2022 Winter Olympics Men's Ice Hockey on Sunday..
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    This is the kind of white elephant project that could attract EU finance. . oh, wait. .
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    IshmaelZ said:

    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.

    If Scotland does secede and there's a bridge will "join up with Scotland" be a choice in a border poll?
    If the Scots had any sense they’d put destruction of the bridge in divorce negotiations.
    It would be a true white elephant.

    The maintenance costs would be huge but decommissioning it would be out of the question.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    IshmaelZ said:

    The "Get it done" mantra worries me, though. It worked for Brexit at GE2019, it was deployed yesterday for HS2, perhaps there will now be a pattern of suggest grotesquely stupid idea, let everybody argue themselves stupid about it for 10 years, and then present yourself as a can-do Gordian knot cutter with "Let's jolly well get the Irish bridge/the manned Mars mission/the Everest cable car done" and enjoy the plaudits.

    I like the everest cable car project - for once we would see something tangible for our Foreign Aid money (This is said in jest before anyone comments too much).,.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495
    edited February 2020
    Facts matter now, to be sure; if you start from a number of quite sensible places, including right here, Portpatrick is not 50 light years away at all but it a very pleasant day out in the summer and you can take in Gatehouse of Fleet on the way and Newton Stewart on the way home. It's getting to London that's the stumper, not that you would want to if you are staring from here.
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    Alistair said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.

    If Scotland does secede and there's a bridge will "join up with Scotland" be a choice in a border poll?
    If the Scots had any sense they’d put destruction of the bridge in divorce negotiations.
    It would be a true white elephant.

    The maintenance costs would be huge but decommissioning it would be out of the question.
    Perhaps it's part of the planned Better Together campaign MK2? If Scotland votes to become independent, you'll end up with Boris' half built, economically ruinous bridge.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495

    This is the kind of white elephant project that could attract EU finance. . oh, wait. .

    To be fair it should, as in generation's time it would connect EU Scotland and EU United Ireland very handily.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    Delightful article - thank you Alastair!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Nice to see that Alastair is gearing up for Valentine's day this week.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited February 2020
    ...
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    edited February 2020

    Was this one where you had a title that just demanded a piece?

    Yes.
    "Auld friends..." could have been used
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,399
    edited February 2020
    Won't happen, as I think we all know.

    This is Lords to Leeds territory.

    If I recall the numbers, the dumped munitions are more than a million tonnes, including up to 50k tonnes of chemical weapons.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    This is the kind of white elephant project that could attract EU finance. . oh, wait. .

    Well that's a relief. How much of that much vaunted "EU money" was spent on things almost as useful?

    Of course this is a remarkably silly idea. His thoughts of a new airport in the Thames estuary made way more sense. Dualling the A1 just might have more economic benefit too. I am bemused that this has not disappeared into the long grass already.
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    US Budget review:

    "In so doing, the White House has unearthed some particularly amusing examples of government waste, including support for a Muppet Retrospectacle in New Zealand, millions of dollars to prepare religions across the globe for discovering extraterrestrial life , and $4.6m spent by federal agencies on lobster tails and crab in a “use it or lose it” end year spending spree."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/02/11/debt-bubble-should-ring-alarm-bells-amid-strange-death-fiscal/
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372
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    Why did we dump all the munitions in our own coastal waters instead of mid-Atlantic?
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    edited February 2020
    This does sound very "Boris". All fizz and no gin. I try not to be ultra cynical about politicians - think it's often a bit cliched and lazy to assume the worst all the time - but in this case, since it's Johnson we're talking about, I am happy to make an exception.
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    More global warming religion news:
    https://twitter.com/tswyatt/status/1227578131512463361
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372

    Why did we dump all the munitions in our own coastal waters instead of mid-Atlantic?

    Just lazy, I guess.
    AFAIK we buried some under chemical factory sites at the time, too.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    Why did we dump all the munitions in our own coastal waters instead of mid-Atlantic?

    Why does the MoD do anything? Because it was cheaper.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    edited February 2020
    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    There's so much to be done its hard to know where to start. Improving broadband/G5 access, HS2, Heathrow expansion, the A1 dualling, the Northern Powerhouse rail links, building out the infrastructure for electric vehicles countrywide, Crossrail 2, improving the viability and range of regional airports, possibly revisit various tidal barrages in the name of green energy, you could go on all day and still not get near this non starter.

    Far more good things to spend money on than there is money to spend or capacity to build.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Is hot air not the entire point of a religion?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Genuine question
    How do the numbers look for HS2 ?
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    Mr. L, well, at least Welby or his successor will have something new to feel guilty about in 2030.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Those numbers are staggeringly generous.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    This is the type of sober and high fact density analysis that has no place in the People's Republic of Boristan.
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    F1: there's a pole position market up on Ladbrokes, with China specifically not included.
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    DavidL said:

    There's so much to be done its hard to know where to start. Improving broadband/G5 access, HS2, Heathrow expansion, the A1 dualling, the Northern Powerhouse rail links, building out the infrastructure for electric vehicles countrywide, Crossrail 2, improving the viability and range of regional airports, possibly revisit various tidal barrages in the name of green energy, you could go on all day and still not get near this non starter.

    Far more good things to spend money on than there is money to spend or capacity to build.

    Well, keeps me in work.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    Mr. L, well, at least Welby or his successor will have something new to feel guilty about in 2030.

    I think that they have a direct line for forgiveness though. On speedial apparently.
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    rcs1000 said:

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Those numbers are staggeringly generous.
    Hence, hopefully, the power of my point.
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    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,767

    Alistair said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.

    If Scotland does secede and there's a bridge will "join up with Scotland" be a choice in a border poll?
    If the Scots had any sense they’d put destruction of the bridge in divorce negotiations.
    It would be a true white elephant.

    The maintenance costs would be huge but decommissioning it would be out of the question.
    Perhaps it's part of the planned Better Together campaign MK2? If Scotland votes to become independent, you'll end up with Boris' half built, economically ruinous bridge.
    We could offer it to the MoD as a target and stop lobbing 500kg bombs at Cape Wrath!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    DavidL said:

    There's so much to be done its hard to know where to start. Improving broadband/G5 access, HS2, Heathrow expansion, the A1 dualling, the Northern Powerhouse rail links, building out the infrastructure for electric vehicles countrywide, Crossrail 2, improving the viability and range of regional airports, possibly revisit various tidal barrages in the name of green energy, you could go on all day and still not get near this non starter.

    Far more good things to spend money on than there is money to spend or capacity to build.

    Well, keeps me in work.
    Another plus! But having escaped Crossrail I take it this would not be your next choice of project.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495
    edited February 2020

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Of course it won't be built. That isn't what it's for. For viability it is about level with rebuilding the railway bridge across the Solway from Bowness to Annan, closed to passenger traffic in 1920. (BTW I knew someone who lived to be 101, died in 2008, who travelled on it daily until its closure).

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    Was this one where you had a title that just demanded a piece?

    Edit: not that there aren't several well made points I hasten to add!

    Think yourself lucky that I resisted the temptation to write a piece under the title "To govern is to choo-choose".
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    Pulpstar said:

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Genuine question
    How do the numbers look for HS2 ?
    Including wider economic impacts it was 1.8 for phase 1 and 2.3 for phase 2. Anything above 2 is considered “high”:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/286611/hs2-economic-case.pdf

    This was based on a total budget of £70bn. It will turf out somewhere between 60-95bn so there will prob be a 20% MoE on the business case.
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    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There's so much to be done its hard to know where to start. Improving broadband/G5 access, HS2, Heathrow expansion, the A1 dualling, the Northern Powerhouse rail links, building out the infrastructure for electric vehicles countrywide, Crossrail 2, improving the viability and range of regional airports, possibly revisit various tidal barrages in the name of green energy, you could go on all day and still not get near this non starter.

    Far more good things to spend money on than there is money to spend or capacity to build.

    Well, keeps me in work.
    Another plus! But having escaped Crossrail I take it this would not be your next choice of project.
    I’m now on the Palace of Westminster.
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    Was this one where you had a title that just demanded a piece?

    Edit: not that there aren't several well made points I hasten to add!

    Think yourself lucky that I resisted the temptation to write a piece under the title "To govern is to choo-choose".
    We’ve already all reprimanded you for that over on Twitter.
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    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    edited February 2020
    The article is as idiotic as the subject but then it is AM
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There's so much to be done its hard to know where to start. Improving broadband/G5 access, HS2, Heathrow expansion, the A1 dualling, the Northern Powerhouse rail links, building out the infrastructure for electric vehicles countrywide, Crossrail 2, improving the viability and range of regional airports, possibly revisit various tidal barrages in the name of green energy, you could go on all day and still not get near this non starter.

    Far more good things to spend money on than there is money to spend or capacity to build.

    Well, keeps me in work.
    Another plus! But having escaped Crossrail I take it this would not be your next choice of project.
    I’m now on the Palace of Westminster.
    Is that more or less gold plated than HS2?
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    DRS is as shit as VAR there.
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    alterego said:

    The article is as idiotic as the subject but then it is AM

    Well if you want to submit your piece for consideration.
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,763

    DRS is as shit as VAR there.

    Justice happened in the end! (Just like the last ODI funnily enough)
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Interesting documentary, about the changes in South Africa since Mandela was released, on the BBC last night.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00052bl

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    CatMan said:

    DRS is as shit as VAR there.

    Justice happened in the end! (Just like the last ODI funnily enough)
    I want to know how DRS can have a leg spinner bowling a leg spinner pitching on the stumps and predict it is sliding down the leg side? It is impossible.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,901

    CatMan said:

    DRS is as shit as VAR there.

    Justice happened in the end! (Just like the last ODI funnily enough)
    I want to know how DRS can have a leg spinner bowling a leg spinner pitching on the stumps and predict it is sliding down the leg side? It is impossible.
    Because it didn't pitch
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,399
    edited February 2020
    This won't happen either. It is described as a "prophetic act" in the supporting paper for the amendment, as "declaring intentions" ie virtue signalling brought on by green campaigners.

    Though your average parish church uses very little energy, and zero carbon suppliers are already in the market.

    When the whole system is becoming renewable, carbon emission reduction is a lot easier as the lecky supply is taken care of by the supplier.
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    Leaders of all sorts float ideas. The last three Presidents of the United States (at least the last 3, maybe more) have announced that NASA will be sending manned missions to Mars. Based on earlier announcements that should be happening soon, but its always something decades off that gets forgotten about until it gets announced as a great new idea by the next President.

    Part of the reason is that talk is cheap I agree. But the second reason I'd give is more nobel than Mr Meeks cynical suggestion - by floating different ideas people talk about them yes but then you can see the ideas that do take off, and when problems get discussed some people set out to start solving those problems.

    If an idea is floated and the problems get solved relatively easily then that idea -even if it was originally just a kite - can end up a reality.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,763
    OT - My new favourite website:

    https://havewegotafuckingtradedealyet.com/
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    CatMan said:

    OT - My new favourite website:

    https://havewegotafuckingtradedealyet.com/

    James 'one unfunny joke' Felton will be all over that
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    isam said:

    CatMan said:

    OT - My new favourite website:

    https://havewegotafuckingtradedealyet.com/

    James 'one unfunny joke' Felton will be all over that
    Also seems out of date...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    edited February 2020
    Can I just say that NY Times, with their model of New Hampshire, got it exactly right very early on last night.

    I was forecasting a 5% Sanders lead over Buttigieg based on early results. They said 1.7%. The actual number looks to be 1-1.5%. That's pretty impressive.

    Normally, in a Primary contest, Iowa and New Hampshire rapidly winnow the field, so that there are two or perhaps three viable candidates by the time of Super Tuesday.

    Not this time.

    There are six candidates who swear blind they're still in the race: Sanders, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Biden, Warren and Bloomberg. Of these, the first two dominate the delegates race, currently. But Biden is hanging on for South Carolina. And Warren is hanging in there in case Sanders has another heart attack. And Bloomberg is hoping that his c. 10% in national polls (and first in Arkansas!) translates into meaningful numbers of delegates on Super Tuesday.

    I have been super sceptical about the possibility of a brokered convention. But right now, it's looking like Sanders will turn up there first, but with only about a third of the delegates.

    Will this be enough? His supporters will argue he won a plurality, which he will have done, and therefore should have a shot.

    But here's the thing: historically, if a candidate drops out and endorses another candidate, then their delegates effectively count for that candidate. So, if Amy Klobuchar dropped out today and endorsed Buttigieg (which she won't), then her seven delegates would become Buttigieg's at the convention.

    Now this doesn't normally matter. But this time it probably *really* matters. But it has to happen early. It can't be done on the eve of the convention, it has to be done while the Primaries are still in process. There is therefore be an extraordinary amount of horse trading to come.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    B00merberg has finally got a bit of media heat, thank fuck. Hopefully he'll be #Metoo in short order also
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    Allowing the Orange Order easier and quicker access to Scotland might just tip Scotland to secede.

    If Scotland does secede and there's a bridge will "join up with Scotland" be a choice in a border poll?
    More likely it would be an ideal way for all the Orangemen, DUP voters and Ulster Unionists to return to their ancestral home of Scotland in the event of any future border poll not going their way, cementing Scotland in the UK for ever
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    rcs1000 said:

    Can I just say that NY Times, with their model of New Hampshire, got it exactly right very early on last night.

    I was forecasting a 5% Sanders lead over Buttigieg based on early results. They said 1.7%. The actual number looks to be 1-1.5%. That's pretty impressive.

    Normally, in a Primary contest, Iowa and New Hampshire rapidly winnow the field, so that there are two or perhaps three viable candidates by the time of Super Tuesday.

    Not this time.

    There are six candidates who swear blind they're still in the race: Sanders, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Biden, Warren and Bloomberg. Of these, the first two dominate the delegates race, currently. But Biden is hanging on for South Carolina. And Warren is hanging in there in case Sanders has another heart attack. And Bloomberg is hoping that his c. 10% in national polls (and first in Arkansas!) translates into meaningful numbers of delegates on Super Tuesday.

    I have been super sceptical about the possibility of a brokered convention. But right now, it's looking like Sanders will turn up there first, but with only about a third of the delegates.

    Will this be enough? His supporters will argue he won a plurality, which he will have done, and therefore should have a shot.

    But here's the thing: historically, if a candidate drops out and endorses another candidate, then their delegates effectively count for that candidate. So, if Amy Klobuchar dropped out today and endorsed Buttigieg (which she won't), then her seven delegates would become Buttigieg's at the convention.

    Now this doesn't normally matter. But this time it probably *really* matters. But it has to happen early. It can't be done on the eve of the convention, it has to be done while the Primaries are still in process. There is therefore be an extraordinary amount of horse trading to come.

    For those who doubt my contention re delegates, I point you to the 2008 Democratic National Convention.

    John Edwards dropped out of the race and endorsed Obama when he had 14 delegates. At the DNC, because he'd endorsed Obama during the Primary process, they all voted for Obama, and there were no votes for Edwards during the roll call.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    edited February 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    B00merberg has finally got a bit of media heat, thank fuck. Hopefully he'll be #Metoo in short order also

    Bloomberg endorsed George W Bush and Dick Cheney at the Republican National Convention in a speech.

    That makes him unacceptable to at least 50%+1 of the delegates at the DNC.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    Let's just start with a list of BJ's populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects.
    A list of Boris Johnson’s failed erections?
    That would be the only list involving Johnson that didn’t contain a single cock up.
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    Interesting profile of Starmer here:

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/keir-starmer-profile

    It feels to me that if he wins he is going to go for a big tent, keeping on some of the Corbynites like RLB but also bringing back the likes of Benn and Cooper. The key question then is whether everyone can get along or whether Momentum start causing trouble.

    The danger of trying to keep everyone happy is that Lab may end up with a mish mash of policies with a few bones being thrown to the Corbynites and a few to the Blairites.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    edited February 2020
    Re Starmer's pledges make today - can anyone identify what he HAS dropped from the 2019 Manifesto? The only major things dropped as far as I can see are:

    - Appropriating 10% of shares in all private companies (over 250 employees)
    - Reimbursing WASPI women
    - Free broadband

    Is there anything else?
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    ydoethur said:

    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    Let's just start with a list of BJ's populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects.
    A list of Boris Johnson’s failed erections?
    That would be the only list involving Johnson that didn’t contain a single cock up.
    Shurely a failed erection is a cocked-up cock-up?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,462
    CatMan said:

    OT - My new favourite website:

    https://havewegotafuckingtradedealyet.com/

    Is it run by Ian Dunt?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    ydoethur said:

    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    Let's just start with a list of BJ's populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects.
    A list of Boris Johnson’s failed erections?
    That would be the only list involving Johnson that didn’t contain a single cock up.
    Surely a premature conclusion.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    Is there a list of populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects?

    Let's just start with a list of BJ's populist, doomed to fail infrastructure projects.
    A list of Boris Johnson’s failed erections?
    That would be the only list involving Johnson that didn’t contain a single cock up.
    Shurely a failed erection is a cocked-up cock-up?
    Nah, it’s a cock down.
  • Options
    Grace Blakeley seems to be providing personal finance advice now:

    https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/qjd3p7/how-to-get-out-of-debt
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    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    MikeL said:

    Re Starmer's pledges make today - can anyone identify what he HAS dropped from the 2019 Manifesto? The only major things dropped as far as I can see are:

    - Appropriating 10% of shares in all private companies (over 250 employees)
    - Reimbursing WASPI women
    - Free broadband

    Is there anything else?

    Just read thought the 10 pledges, or statements, or whatever,

    And yes it looks like his is only inching in form where Coybyn was at best.

    no substantive change at all, just a new face
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    B00merberg has finally got a bit of media heat, thank fuck. Hopefully he'll be #Metoo in short order also

    Bloomberg endorsed George W Bush and Dick Cheney at the Republican National Convention in a speech.

    That makes him unacceptable to at least 50%+1 of the delegates at the DNC.
    A shame, as he is the only name between Trump and a second term.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495
    MattW said:

    This won't happen either. It is described as a "prophetic act" in the supporting paper for the amendment, as "declaring intentions" ie virtue signalling brought on by green campaigners.

    Though your average parish church uses very little energy, and zero carbon suppliers are already in the market.

    When the whole system is becoming renewable, carbon emission reduction is a lot easier as the lecky supply is taken care of by the supplier.
    Agree. while it's the usual virtue signalling by people who like that sort of thing, church carbon footprint would mostly be in heating and will move at something like the speed of domestic housing to electricity from oil/gas, with a few using ground source heating.

    On the plus side quite a number of them provide green space where there isn't much, open buildings, if a little on the cool side in winter, all day every day for free, community space, several thousand free and open Grade 1 and II* buildings of immense cultural and artistic value for the public to wander around and a bit of continuity and a thoughtful presence in some extraordinary dumps where there is nothing else left.

    Some of them are a bit rubbish of course, but that's life.

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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Lol Bloomberg. He's a republican. He hates black people just like the rest of them.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,620

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    So not a fan then?

    (ducks)
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059
    MaxPB said:

    Lol Bloomberg. He's a republican. He hates black people just like the rest of them.

    He does have one distinct positive. He is not Trump!
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2020

    rcs1000 said:

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Those numbers are staggeringly generous.
    Hence, hopefully, the power of my point.
    You could throw in every scotland to (Northern and Republic of) ireland flight being replaced by a rail service as well and I would assume you would still not get close
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    Those who opposed HS2 ought, on reflection to have had a plan for what do with its left over £12bn rump that would otherwise have highlighted what a godawful mess the whole thing was. To try and make good. If there was such a plan I have not been aware. In the absence of a route backwards, I suppose the only route was forwards.

    I still think the Northern Ireland bridge is a great idea. I don't know quite what it is about this country and bridges - it seems like other countries (Russia was mentioned) just have to think about a bridge and one appears.

  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Why isn't Banton playing in this match for England?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059

    Leaders of all sorts float ideas. The last three Presidents of the United States (at least the last 3, maybe more) have announced that NASA will be sending manned missions to Mars. Based on earlier announcements that should be happening soon, but its always something decades off that gets forgotten about until it gets announced as a great new idea by the next President.

    Part of the reason is that talk is cheap I agree. But the second reason I'd give is more nobel than Mr Meeks cynical suggestion - by floating different ideas people talk about them yes but then you can see the ideas that do take off, and when problems get discussed some people set out to start solving those problems.

    If an idea is floated and the problems get solved relatively easily then that idea -even if it was originally just a kite - can end up a reality.

    It's a floating bridge?
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    Trouble over unbridgeable waters, surely?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313

    Leaders of all sorts float ideas. The last three Presidents of the United States (at least the last 3, maybe more) have announced that NASA will be sending manned missions to Mars. Based on earlier announcements that should be happening soon, but its always something decades off that gets forgotten about until it gets announced as a great new idea by the next President.

    Part of the reason is that talk is cheap I agree. But the second reason I'd give is more nobel than Mr Meeks cynical suggestion - by floating different ideas people talk about them yes but then you can see the ideas that do take off, and when problems get discussed some people set out to start solving those problems.

    If an idea is floated and the problems get solved relatively easily then that idea -even if it was originally just a kite - can end up a reality.

    Totally agree. And it's right to study the feasibility - although I am puzzled why we're discussing it now, since the study has not reported and nor has it just been commissioned. Every new idea needs space to germinate and survive being a seedling - it is too easy to stamp on them at the earliest stage. I think Boris understands this and does not mind a bunch of non starters as long as one or two are amazing.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Any business case for a new bridge needs to start with a traffic study.

    At present there are two routes plied from Belfast and Larne to Stranraer (ish) respectively, averaging 12 sailings a day.

    Stena operates the Stena Superfast VII, which has a max capacity of 660 cars or 110 lorries or a mixture of both.

    Let’s go 1/4 lorries and 3/4 cars. If we assume they all run to capacity all the time then you’re looking at about 500 cars and 30 lorries.

    That gets you to 6,000 cars and 400 lorries (round up) a day. Let’s say every car pays £30 for the toll and lorries £100. You could maybe pull in £220k gross income a day.

    You wouldn’t get that every day, and it’d be seasonal, but let’s assume you get it on 300 days (closures/bad weather etc) and you pull in £66m a year gross. You’ve then got a good few million a year in maintenance and much more in staff but let’s say an opex profit of £30-40m a year (remember: I’m being very generous with maxed out traffic receipts here) and over a 100 year lifespan you might expect £3-4bn in returns (again, note: I’ve done no NPV here, which will really depress it, and maintenance costs will increase with age).

    The likely capex cost of the bridge (sans extra infrastructure) is probably £15-20bn. So it’s business case is some like 0.14-0.25 at best.

    In other words, it’s fucking shite. Even if you assumed traffic would more than double you’d get nowhere near breaking even.

    It will never be built.

    Those numbers are staggeringly generous.
    Hence, hopefully, the power of my point.
    You could throw in every scotland to (Northern and Republic of) ireland flight being replaced by a rail service as well and I would assume you would still not get close
    Well highlighted.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    By the way, what on earth is happening to that man's leg in the picture. A leg isn't meant to bend that way.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059

    Those who opposed HS2 ought, on reflection to have had a plan for what do with its left over £12bn rump that would otherwise have highlighted what a godawful mess the whole thing was. To try and make good. If there was such a plan I have not been aware. In the absence of a route backwards, I suppose the only route was forwards.

    I still think the Northern Ireland bridge is a great idea. I don't know quite what it is about this country and bridges - it seems like other countries (Russia was mentioned) just have to think about a bridge and one appears.

    If we were to categorise Boris' vanity civil engineering projects in terms of construction complexity, affordability and requirement (or lack of need) the new bridge project is head and shoulders above anything else he has dreamed up in terms of sheer lunacy.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313

    Those who opposed HS2 ought, on reflection to have had a plan for what do with its left over £12bn rump that would otherwise have highlighted what a godawful mess the whole thing was. To try and make good. If there was such a plan I have not been aware. In the absence of a route backwards, I suppose the only route was forwards.

    I still think the Northern Ireland bridge is a great idea. I don't know quite what it is about this country and bridges - it seems like other countries (Russia was mentioned) just have to think about a bridge and one appears.

    If we were to categorise Boris' vanity civil engineering projects in terms of construction complexity, affordability and requirement (or lack of need) the new bridge project is head and shoulders above anything else he has dreamed up in terms of sheer lunacy.
    We are talking about something that has been a core policy of NI's leading political party for (I think) over a decade. If what you say is true, let it come out in the feasibility study, and it can be put to bed for a while. Or not.
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    To be fair, if Boris approves the Larne-Scotland bridge it'll be the only decent thing he's done.

    For the record Belfast to Larne is about 20 mile not 30.
This discussion has been closed.