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  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    IanB2 said:

    Reckon this will come to be seen as a mistake:

    All local authorities have been asked to fly the flag for the Duke of York’s 60th birthday celebrations on 19th February. Although the Queen has cancelled formal celebrations in the wake of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and infamous Newsnight interview, a government advisory notice, seen by The Sun newspaper, has been sent to councils asking them to mark the occasion

    How recent is that report? I'm sure I heard the other day that the councils had been told that they didn't have to glorify Prince Andrew if they didn't want to...
    It's bizarre to me. If the aim is to move the dial in the direction of patriotism by ensuring that councils are reminded to fly the flag more often on Royal occasions, Prince Andrew's birthday seems a rather contentious place to start.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    G, not a hope it will be NO next time, the die is cast.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    They all look the same ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Highest wind speed recorded today so far, 97mph on the Isle of Wight.

    Last night BA managed to get a 747 from New York to London in under five hours, thanks to the high winds in the jet stream.
    https://twitter.com/R_Niblett_/status/1226406364366458881
    Passengers stomachs arrived 3hrs later....
    Boston to London last November, a little over 5 hours. Like a rollercoaster. The tail winds were incredible.
    Always dodgy, that rail line through Peterborough :)
    That journey would be longer and would take the traveller from the 1970s to the 2020s. I would anticipate Scanners-type scenes from the locals as they moved inside the Great Wen.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited February 2020
    Dublin South Central

    Quota 8659
    Sinn Fein 17,000 votes

    She had a running make and he was pulled out some months ago fearing he would have split the vote ending up missing out also the first seat....
  • DavidL said:
    Not sure. It has taken me by surprise. Normally Roger tells us who will win, and it is all long odds-on favourites except for the one he slips in at a double-figure price.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,359
    DavidL said:
    Yup
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    DavidL said:
    Not sure. It has taken me by surprise. Normally Roger tells us who will win, and it is all long odds-on favourites except for the one he slips in at a double-figure price.
    Its not something I bet on but I have always enjoyed Roger's thread. Not this year it seems.
  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SF 177% of the quota in Dublin NW. Again only the one candidate.

    Forgive my ignorance of the voting system, but why would they not stand enough candidates?

    Can the vote be split by too many standing, so that none end up elected?
    Is there a massive deposit per candidate?
    Could they not find enough candidates?
    Something on spending limits?
    Under STV the optimum is generally to put up one more candidate than you expect to get elected. Transfers between candidates of the same party are never ‘perfect’, as not everyone follows a party slate and there are always voters who don’t number all of their preferences. So putting up a full slate of candidates risks losing stray votes during eliminations.
    Stupid system.

    d'Hondt for me, with the candidate order decided by party primaries.
    Any system is an improvement on the daft one used for the Scottish Parliament and the Sennedd.
    AV.

    The answer is always AV.
    The question was should we use FPTP or AV. The people gave their answer.
    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.
    Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either."
  • DavidL said:
    Not sure. It has taken me by surprise. Normally Roger tells us who will win, and it is all long odds-on favourites except for the one he slips in at a double-figure price.
    February 24, 2019 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/91st_Academy_Awards

    February 9, 2020 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/92nd_Academy_Awards
  • Dublin Finegal declared first count some minutes ago.

    SF elected with a 5,000 surplus

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQWvVFrWkAMWq0A?format=png&name=900x900
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,359

    DavidL said:
    Not sure. It has taken me by surprise. Normally Roger tells us who will win, and it is all long odds-on favourites except for the one he slips in at a double-figure price.
    Who can forget his Ex Machina tip......
  • The one night of the year / set of predictions when Rog is worth listening to and he is MIA.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    G, not a hope it will be NO next time, the die is cast.
    Malc.

    You and I will not agree on this but given Scots will have to change euros into pounds at the custom posts between Berwick and Carlisle together with severe disruption to 60% of Scotlands trade I trust the Scots to have the good sense and not to follow their hearts, but rather their heads

    You will find that 'better the devil you know than the devil you dont'
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    kinabalu said:

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
    kinabalu said:

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
    The Irish who typically have been portrayed in jokes as thick, have absolutely no problems with it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    To think that Sinn Fein first emerged as a political force by getting nearly every candidate on their slate elected even when half of them were still in prison.

    Admittedly they achieved that largely due to massive fraud, vote rigging and intimidation, but no way would Collins, Griffith and de Valera have been caught short like this.
  • HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
  • Dublin Finegal declared first count some minutes ago.

    SF elected with a 5,000 surplus

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQWvVFrWkAMWq0A?format=png&name=900x900

    Andrea, it is spelt "Fingal".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    I’m sorry, but that doesn’t prove anything. You could be dead in a month!

    :
    :
    :
    Hydrogen peroxide and diesel makes a credible rocket fuel...
    A variant of Hydrogen Peroxide called High-test Peroxide or "HTP" (85% H202, 15% H2O) and kerosene was used as the oxidiser and propellant in the sadly-missed British space programme of the 60's and 70's.

    I don't know how corrosive HTP is. HTP/kerosene has some advantages as rocket fuels: it's liquid at room temperatures and it's hypergolic: the two ignite on contact without needing an igniter, making rocket motors simpler. However HTP's hypergolicity and its ability to act as a monopropellant is a disadvantage: spill some and you risk a fire or an explosion.

    IIRC, when rocket testing was done in Cornwall there were baths of water scattered around so that accidentally aflame engineers could be dunked. HTP was used as an oxidiser in submarines or torpedoes but became associated with accidents, such as HMS Explorer, HMS Excalibur, HMS Sidon and - famously - APL K-141 Kursk, the latter of which was crippled by a HTP torpedo explosion.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MvG3CgAAQBAJ
    http://www.braeunig.us/space/propel.htm
    https://history.nasa.gov/conghand/propelnt.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-test_peroxide
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_(K-141)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sidon_(P259)

    HTP is interesting stuff. The big problem with it is that it *looks* so safe. The important thing to remember with rocket fuels (the sane ones) is that they are generally safe, if your remember how insanely dangerous they are.

    HTP has been used for decades for running starter generators for military aircraft and (among other things) the thrusters for the Soyuz spacecraft.

    Unlike liquid oxygen you can pour it into an ordinary lab beaker. It will sit there like water. no noxious fumes etc. The problem starts with catalytic decomposition - copper really starts the party. Then you get red hot hydrogen and oxygen wanting to party. If this is inside a rocket engine - awesome. Elsewhere, not so much. Try building a ship or submarine without brass....

    Interestingly it has been recently (last ten years) discovered that HTP gets more stable the purer it is.

    It's use in the British space program was another example of how British engineers had a genius for picking the wrong technology and then following that to a silly end. The Americans took a couple of looks at the peroxide stuff the Germans had done, and went with liquid oxygen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Dublin Finegal declared first count some minutes ago.

    SF elected with a 5,000 surplus

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQWvVFrWkAMWq0A?format=png&name=900x900

    Andrea, it is spelt "Fingal".
    Irish is full of hidden vowels. You have to keep Cave for them.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    The one night of the year / set of predictions when Rog is worth listening to and he is MIA.

    Parasite @ 4?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    I think trying to link evil stuff like the QAnon stuff to people making forced choices in polls is a reach. What the New Hampshire Democrats are saying is that they really, really don't want Trump. As to Brexit, economic damage etc - framing a question on nationalism in economic terms is to miss the point.

    For example - Most Socts Nats of my acquaintance will, if forced to choose (is a social discussion) between independence with worse economics vs remaining, would still choose independence. This is because they believe that Scottish people alone should decide the fate of Scotland - and that will in the *long run* be better for Scotland.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    Sadly I have to agree. To some extent, but I still think Lab in 97 was better. How many Lab gains were there?
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Endillion said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Former Commons Speaker John Bercow has said there is a "conspiracy" to keep him out of the House of Lords.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51434470

    I see it has escalated from bullying this morning to a conspiracy.
    I don't think people are bullying him out of the House of Lords - it's more his bullying is the reason why he shouldn't ever be a member of it.
    Which poster was it who foretold this and related a story at his work which ended up with the person everyone had come together to accuse of bullying in turn claiming that such a charge itself was bullying.
    In all seriousness, it's not hard to imagine a pretty reasonable-looking case that Bercow has been bullied, based solely on height-related gags as reported by the media.

    Replace "height" with "race" or even "weight", and you're on to a definite winner.
    He has faced mockery, I am sure. But bullied people can also bully others, and Bercow adores his self image as someone who belittles others in a very public fashion. If that's not an act but how he operates behind closed doors, sympathy at his getting mocked for his height does not stretch very far.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    It's looking possible that SF will top the poll but end up with fewer seats.
  • I think trying to link evil stuff like the QAnon stuff to people making forced choices in polls is a reach. What the New Hampshire Democrats are saying is that they really, really don't want Trump. As to Brexit, economic damage etc - framing a question on nationalism in economic terms is to miss the point.

    For example - Most Socts Nats of my acquaintance will, if forced to choose (is a social discussion) between independence with worse economics vs remaining, would still choose independence. This is because they believe that Scottish people alone should decide the fate of Scotland - and that will in the *long run* be better for Scotland.

    The SNP maybe but do not confuse that with the Scottish people, and of course handing Scotland over to Brussels and the euro opens a whole can of worms
  • Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Chris_A said:

    It's looking possible that SF will top the poll but end up with fewer seats.

    Yep - they haven't stood up as many candidates as their vote warrants as they didn't expect to do as well as they did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker nger apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    It is not just my line, it is the line of the UK government as confirmed by the Scottish Secretary

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-secretary-rules-out-indyref2-even-if-snp-win-2021-holyrood-majority-1-5073742.

    The SNP have got to realise when Salmond said the 2014 vote was 'once in a generation' the UK government took them at their word
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HUFYD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    That made me smile OKC
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker the position of Labour and the lower the likelihood of it coming back to power, at least without repenting of the Corbyn experiment and returning to harmless wet centrism.

    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    No thanks. These things are emotional - all nations are arbitrary when you get right down to it - and I for one won't stop supporting something that means a lot to me even if it will not last much longer. So many people would have to cast aside so much based on some inevitablist view of history and development that way. Those clamouring to break free would equally have to conclude nation states are pointless so give up on an independent state, and there's no reason they should do that.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    Yes, the really big win was the 5.5% increase they secured in 2017.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    We'll maybe find out next time.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker nger apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    It is not just my line, it is the line of the UK government as confirmed by the Scottish Secretary

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-secretary-rules-out-indyref2-even-if-snp-win-2021-holyrood-majority-1-5073742.

    The SNP have got to realise when Salmond said the 2014 vote was 'once in a generation' the UK government took them at their word
    No they do not, nor will they. You are so arrogant at times. Boris will change if circumstances dictate
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    3 FF candidates here seems foolhardy in the extreme https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/results/#/national/tipperary
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    So if Boris says yes, you can have an Indyref, he won’t be able to rely on the support of the Party?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:
    Not sure. It has taken me by surprise. Normally Roger tells us who will win, and it is all long odds-on favourites except for the one he slips in at a double-figure price.
    Its not something I bet on but I have always enjoyed Roger's thread. Not this year it seems.
    I put a couple of quid on Parasite.
    While I was not surprised none of its cast were nominated (considering who’s doing the nominating) it still seems a touch unfair.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    You will lose this argument if 2021 goes the SNP way
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    There's nothing insinuating about it, we judge outcomes based on seats more than anything else and if it was not a landslide it was as close to a landslide as you can get without being one.

    Ok, people can judge things on different metrics (vote share perhaps), but your implied one about judging a landslide based on how much the vote increased seems crazy - am I to believe Labour did not win a landslide in 2001 because their vote went down? Or that Cameron got a landslide in 2010 because his vote went up 3.7%?
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    Really. And Blair's election was corrupt as well ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    It's not corrupt, it's just not as good as a more proportional system, and people whinging that it is corrupt really undermines those of us who do want to change it - people will not be convinced en masse that the way they have always voted in governments is utterly corrupt, and will distrust the claims that another way is fairer from people making such an over the top comment.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    It takes two to tango.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:
    Not sure. It has taken me by surprise. Normally Roger tells us who will win, and it is all long odds-on favourites except for the one he slips in at a double-figure price.
    Its not something I bet on but I have always enjoyed Roger's thread. Not this year it seems.
    I put a couple of quid on Parasite.
    While I was not surprised none of its cast were nominated (considering who’s doing the nominating) it still seems a touch unfair.
    Saw the movie today. It was very good, no question, but frankly I'm not sure why it is getting as much buzz as it is.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns that no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    That's right. The only thing voters in Bishop Auckland mentioned on the doorstep was their objection to indyref2.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    We'll maybe find out next time.
    You've got high hopes for Sir Keir!
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these things. What value, therefore, from the point of view of the ordinary English voter, is to be had in keeping it on life support?

    Northern Ireland is a relic of colonialism and religious sectarianism, the Union with Scotland is the product of 18th century concerns ?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    So if Boris says yes, you can have an Indyref, he won’t be able to rely on the support of the Party?
    HYUFD lets himself down so often by always being right in his own narrow view, rather than saying IMHO
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Former Commons Speaker John Bercow has said there is a "conspiracy" to keep him out of the House of Lords.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51434470

    I see it has escalated from bullying this morning to a conspiracy.
    I don't think people are bullying him out of the House of Lords - it's more his bullying is the reason why he shouldn't ever be a member of it.
    Which poster was it who foretold this and related a story at his work which ended up with the person everyone had come together to accuse of bullying in turn claiming that such a charge itself was bullying.
    In all seriousness, it's not hard to imagine a pretty reasonable-looking case that Bercow has been bullied, based solely on height-related gags as reported by the media.

    Replace "height" with "race" or even "weight", and you're on to a definite winner.
    He has faced mockery, I am sure. But bullied people can also bully others, and Bercow adores his self image as someone who belittles others in a very public fashion. If that's not an act but how he operates behind closed doors, sympathy at his getting mocked for his height does not stretch very far.
    He was also the effective CEO and Chairman of the organisation. Every member of staff in the Commons reported to him, and with the exception of the vote to reappoint him after each election, he was untouchable.
  • Chris_A said:

    kinabalu said:

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
    kinabalu said:

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
    The Irish who typically have been portrayed in jokes as thick, have absolutely no problems with it.
    STV, not AV!
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    kinabalu said:

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
    kinabalu said:

    It just became a vehicle to kick Nick Clegg.

    If people had solely focussed on the issue YES2AV would have won a landslide.

    Big majority for AV in Oxbridge and Hampstead. Rest of the country decided it was so complicated it made their brain hurt.
    The Irish who typically have been portrayed in jokes as thick, have absolutely no problems with it.
    STV, not AV!
    And therefore more complex
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable t no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    So if Boris says yes, you can have an Indyref, he won’t be able to rely on the support of the Party?
    In a nutshell yes, though Boris can't stand Sturgeon and won't grant her indyref2 anyway
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited February 2020
    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    As opposed to systems where the composition of the government is usually decided in smoke free rooms after the election, with manifesto commitments discarded in favour of the greater good (of personal ministerial salaries and cars for the politicians, rather than their commitments to the electorate)?
  • Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    And the Labour vote...?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.

    If you stop to think about it then it's remarkable exactly how much support there still is for the Union amongst Tories and Tory-leaning voters. After all, the closer the UK-England Venn diagram moves toward being a single circle, the weaker nger apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    It is not just my line, it is the line of the UK government as confirmed by the Scottish Secretary

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-secretary-rules-out-indyref2-even-if-snp-win-2021-holyrood-majority-1-5073742.

    The SNP have got to realise when Salmond said the 2014 vote was 'once in a generation' the UK government took them at their word
    No they do not, nor will they. You are so arrogant at times. Boris will change if circumstances dictate
    He will not and he has a big enough Commons majority to ignore Sturgeon
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    Really. And Blair's election was corrupt as well ?
    Absolutely. I cannot see how anyone thinks that a party which gains 43% deserves absolute power for 5 years is in the least bit sensible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these ns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    That's right. The only thing voters in Bishop Auckland mentioned on the doorstep was their objection to indyref2.
    It was a manifesto commitment and the Tories got a majority for that manifesto
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels h a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    You will lose this argument if 2021 goes the SNP way
    Actually even most Scots oppose indyref2 for at least 5 years, regardless of whether the SNP win next year's Holyrood election

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1222871398516916224?s=20
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable t no longer apply, and there is, in any event, absolutely no interest in reforming the Union in such a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    So if Boris says yes, you can have an Indyref, he won’t be able to rely on the support of the Party?
    In a nutshell yes, though Boris can't stand Sturgeon and won't grant her indyref2 anyway
    So he’s a bully?
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels resentful, dominated, is desperate to get away, has an intense dislike of the English, or some combination of two or more of these ns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    That's right. The only thing voters in Bishop Auckland mentioned on the doorstep was their objection to indyref2.
    It was a manifesto commitment and the Tories got a majority for that manifesto
    Oh come off it. One thing which any one us can agree on is that there was no majority for the Tory manifesto.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    eadric said:

    I had to read the Daily Beast article to know what QAnon was. Trump has so many mad ideas I can't keep up.

    "QAnon believers are convinced that Trump is secretly at war with pedophile-cannibals in the Democratic Party, a theory so unhinged and potent that the FBI considers it a potential source of domestic terrorism."

    They truly are special people.

    QAnon conspiracy theorists are telling people to drink bleach as a cure against the deadly Wuhan coronavirus

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-wuhan-cure-qanon-mms-bleach-conspiracy-2020-1?r=US&IR=T
    The other day I discovered that my highly intelligent 24 year old wife believes, inter alia, that jet planes don't really run on jet fuel, that's just "some weird conspiracy", as no plane could fly when carrying "all that stuff"

    I think this meta-conspiracy devolves, ultimately, from 9/11 and All That
    I would question the "highly intelligent" description.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels h a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    You will lose this argument if 2021 goes the SNP way
    Actually even most Scots oppose indyref2 for at least 5 years, regardless of whether the SNP win next year's Holyrood election

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1222871398516916224?s=20
    For Fucks Sake the Tweet Says Within 5 years. The Tweet you are actually posting says WITHIN.

    WITHIN.

    WITHIN.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    "They do, however, support one within the next 5 years"
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    And of course there is the Panelbase results from yesterday

    There are differing legal opinions on whether the Scottish Parliament currently has the power to hold a consultative referendum on independence without Westminster’s permission. If the UK government continues to refuse to give permission, do you think the Scottish Parliament should legislate to hold a referendum and then allow the courts to decide whether it can take place?


    Yes 56%
    No 44%
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    There's nothing insinuating about it, we judge outcomes based on seats more than anything else and if it was not a landslide it was as close to a landslide as you can get without being one.

    Ok, people can judge things on different metrics (vote share perhaps), but your implied one about judging a landslide based on how much the vote increased seems crazy - am I to believe Labour did not win a landslide in 2001 because their vote went down? Or that Cameron got a landslide in 2010 because his vote went up 3.7%?
    The 2019 result was a very good,decisive win for the Tories - if not quite a landslide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278
    Sinn Fein gains in the Republic seem to be mainly focused on Dublin, elsewhere in Ireland Fine Gael and Fianna Fail doing better

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1226588052124045318?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nothing is destroyed by the destruction of the United Kingdom, so let's not exaggerate. You might just as well call it the creation of a United Ireland and an independent Scotland.


    It is worth remembering at this juncture that maintaining a political union with Scotland and Northern Ireland alike requires a very considerable yearly outlay of English taxpayers' money to places where much of the population feels h a fashion is to make it a structure that is equitable and addresses the needs and concerns of all its members. So if it's going to die why not just let it?
    HA HA HA, the old chestnut that the English subsidise Scotland rather than the reality of it being the other way round. Get a backbone and have an independence referendum rather than whine constantly.
    Good chance it will happen in Autumn 2021 Malc, but the union will win
    It won't happen while Boris is PM as the Tory manifesto made clear the 2014 referendum was 'once in a generation'
    It will in the circumstances Scots opinion demands it post Holyrood 2021

    On this subject you are running the very real risk of being wrong
    I am not as it needs Westminster approval as was the case in 2014 and Westminster now has a Tory majority elected on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
    Things change - politics change - you can parrot your line as much as you want but it will change if the SNP win a majority in 2021. Your attitude just hastens independence and angers moderates including supporters of the union like my family as you demonstrate all that is wrong with some English attitudes to the Scots
    And HYUFD is assuming Boris is going to keep his promises.
    The Tories have a majority of 80 elected on a no to indyref2 platform, the House of Commons has to approve indyref2 not just Boris
    You will lose this argument if 2021 goes the SNP way
    Actually even most Scots oppose indyref2 for at least 5 years, regardless of whether the SNP win next year's Holyrood election

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1222871398516916224?s=20
    For Fucks Sake the Tweet Says Within 5 years. The Tweet you are actually posting says WITHIN.

    WITHIN.

    WITHIN.
    By 46% to 41% Scots oppose indyref2 even if the SNP win a majority at Holyrood next year
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278
    edited February 2020
    Alistair said:

    "They do, however, support one within the next 5 years"

    There will be another UK general election in 4 and a half years, so Boris therefore can correctly refuse indyref2 for the remainder of his term in office with the full approval of most Scots
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    HYUFD said:

    Sinn Fein gains in the Republic seem to be mainly focused on Dublin, elsewhere in Ireland Fine Gael and Fianna Fail doing better

    //twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1226588052124045318?s=20

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1226587701232664582?s=19

    If no government can be formed, SF are unlikely to fear a further election.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    eadric said:

    Biden: "“I’ve lost a lot in my life,” he said, referencing not just Beau but the wife and daughter who died in a car crash shortly after that first Senate win. “I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand by and lose my country too.”


    https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-biden-is-running-out-of-gas?ref=home

    Jesus. Did he really lose his wife and kid in a crash? Fuck. Suddenly have a lot more sympathy for the guy.

    Awful
    Yes, a car accident in 1972, just after his election to the Senate aged 30. He did have three children and now only has one.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden#Family_deaths
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,278
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sinn Fein gains in the Republic seem to be mainly focused on Dublin, elsewhere in Ireland Fine Gael and Fianna Fail doing better

    //twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1226588052124045318?s=20

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1226587701232664582?s=19

    If no government can be formed, SF are unlikely to fear a further election.
    Likely we will continue as now, a FG Governmemt with FF confidence and supply provided FG win most seats (the reverse if FF win most seats)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    eadric said:

    I had to read the Daily Beast article to know what QAnon was. Trump has so many mad ideas I can't keep up.

    "QAnon believers are convinced that Trump is secretly at war with pedophile-cannibals in the Democratic Party, a theory so unhinged and potent that the FBI considers it a potential source of domestic terrorism."

    They truly are special people.

    QAnon conspiracy theorists are telling people to drink bleach as a cure against the deadly Wuhan coronavirus

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-wuhan-cure-qanon-mms-bleach-conspiracy-2020-1?r=US&IR=T
    The other day I discovered that my highly intelligent 24 year old wife believes, inter alia, that jet planes don't really run on jet fuel, that's just "some weird conspiracy", as no plane could fly when carrying "all that stuff"
    My moderately intelligent boss in my previous job, the possessor of a data science Master's degree (just the one, but there y'go), was surprised to find that Scotland sent MPs to the UK Parliament. My oft-mentioned observation that English people suffer from hemispatial neglect with respect to Scotland and Northern Ireland is sadly based on such observations... :(

  • Sandpit said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    As opposed to systems where the composition of the government is usually decided in smoke free rooms after the election, with manifesto commitments discarded in favour of the greater good (of personal ministerial salaries and cars for the politicians, rather than their commitments to the electorate)?
    Looking at the way the Irish election is panning out, Sinn Fein seem likely now to comfortably win the highest first preference vote, yet end up only with the third highest number of seats of the 3 main parties. With lots of dealings in smoke filled rooms to follow.

    It isn't the best advert for PR in terms of either proportionality or transparency.
  • Shane Ross (IND) , outgoing minister for transport, lost his seat in Dublin
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894
    He'll get in on 3rd count.
  • He'll retain his seat comfortably after another round or two. They've only filled 1 out of 4 seats for that constituency so far.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894

    Sandpit said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    As opposed to systems where the composition of the government is usually decided in smoke free rooms after the election, with manifesto commitments discarded in favour of the greater good (of personal ministerial salaries and cars for the politicians, rather than their commitments to the electorate)?
    Looking at the way the Irish election is panning out, Sinn Fein seem likely now to comfortably win the highest first preference vote, yet end up only with the third highest number of seats of the 3 main parties. With lots of dealings in smoke filled rooms to follow.

    It isn't the best advert for PR in terms of either proportionality or transparency.
    Shinners didn't believe in themselves enough to put up enough candidates to take advantage of their polling tho.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited February 2020
    he will be elected when the second FG (1900 votes) is eliminated. Possibly even before that

    He is at 8596. Quota is 8726
    Only SF elected so far with 3 more to be elected.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited February 2020
    Looking at the Irish results, it's clear that whoever was advising Sinn Fein to stand only one candidate in each multi-member constituency needs shooting. Although I hope they're past that nowadays.

    eg. Waterford, 4 member constituency, 1 Sinn Fein candidate with 38.3% of 1st preferences.
  • he will be elected when the second FG (1900 votes) is eliminated. Possibly even before that

    He is at 8596. Quota is 8726
    Only SF elected so far with 3 more to be elected.

    Ah.

    STV spoiling the fun again.
  • He'll retain his seat comfortably after another round or two. They've only filled 1 out of 4 seats for that constituency so far.
    Don't you just love STV?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,644

    Looking at the Irish results, it's clear that whoever was advising Sinn Fein to stand only one candidate in each multi-member constituency needs shooting. Although I hope they're past that nowadays.

    It was incredibly risk-averse, even at the close of nominations they were polling better than the last general election.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited February 2020
    Dubley Bay North

    Quota 12,000
    SF woman 21,000

    RTE presenter: "based on 2019 local elections, it was thought that SF seat was at risk"
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800


    Looking at the way the Irish election is panning out, Sinn Fein seem likely now to comfortably win the highest first preference vote, yet end up only with the third highest number of seats of the 3 main parties. With lots of dealings in smoke filled rooms to follow.

    It isn't the best advert for PR in terms of either proportionality or transparency.

    That, rather like the comment about liberal intolerance, is nonsense.

    A Party choosing not to stand enough candidates is going to suffer under FPTP, STV or any system other than direct proportionality but not even Ireland has gone that far.

    Of course, under FPTP, winning the most votes doesn't guarantee winning the most seats.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,644
    Sandpit said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Irish election producing first count results for SF like those for Labour In 1997....... Castle Point......Lab Gain!

    Or 2019 for the Tories.... :)
    The Tory vote went up 1.4%> fed up of people insinuating that they got a landslide.
    If 80 seat majority is not a landslide what is
    It's an utterly corrupt electoral system, that's what it is.
    As opposed to systems where the composition of the government is usually decided in smoke free rooms after the election, with manifesto commitments discarded in favour of the greater good (of personal ministerial salaries and cars for the politicians, rather than their commitments to the electorate)?
    You don't need the sacred position of manifestos when the government programme is negotiated by parties that intrinsically embody different views, and winning support accordingly. You do not vote for Sinn Fein thinking that they will join the Commonwealth.

    You need the sacred position of manifestos if you have a system that creates two parties that swing wildly from Blair -> Corbyn or IDS -> Cameron -> Boris.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Not so fast, young Casino.

    Varadkar stands in the constituency of Dublin West. It returns 4 TD's (Teachtaí Dála, their equivalent of Members of Parliament). Under STV vote counting goes thru several rounds, with the lowest votes being reassigned on each round. According to Wiki it's currently on count 3 and so far only one TD has been assigned (Sinn Féin's Paul Donnelly). So there's a while to go yet. Varadkar came second in terms of first preferences and given that I'll be surprised if he isn't elected.
This discussion has been closed.