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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Iowa could still go either way with 97% of precincts counted

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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    Nigelb said:

    I’m hoping this was just an error...
    https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3871594

    I thought it was determined to be fake news earlier on here today (can't find the link right now sorry).
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    HYUFD said:

    BigRich said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NYT:

    "Bernie Sanders has a huge January haul.
    Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont raised $25 million in January, his campaign said on Thursday, a staggering sum that gives him an enviable financial advantage at a crucial moment in the Democratic primary race.

    He plans to use the windfall to immediately buy $5.5 million in television and digital ads across 10 states, at a time when some of his rivals are shifting or cutting their existing ad reservations."

    Tell me US Dems are not about to do a Corbyn.

    They might well do,

    But remember, it's probably in the best interest of America and the World that Trump is re-elected. Trump has been following the same fiscal policies as Anthony Barber and Edward Heath. The government spending ahead of income late in the economic cycle. Right now, the US government is on track to run a deficit of 5% of GDP this year.

    That's worse than during the Korean or Vietnam or Iraq or any other war post WW2. It's worse than in any recession, bar two years of the GFC.

    Normally deficits are counter-cyclical. The economy grows, so do tax receipts, and the deficit shrinks. Deliberately running a massive deficit now, so as to goose economic growth into an election is storing up massive amounts of trouble. When the slowdown comes, where does deficit spending go? 8% of GDP? 10%?

    And, of course, deficit spending like this makes it impossible to close the current account gap.

    Trump and the Republicans need to clean this mess up. Trump must be re-elected.
    Given that if trump does win, he will then not be elegable for another election, he is probably better positioned to do things that will make him temporarily unpopular, i.e. budget cuts. and tax rises. but will he? and if he does will he be able to get that though the congress?

    As you say running a budget deficit of a trillion dolers 5% of GDP after 10 years of economic growth, is not sustainable, ether somebody terns this around or we will have to get used to thinking of the USA as a second rate nation soon.
    What are the odds on Trump trying to get Amendment 22 repealed during a second term?
    He could try but he is unlikely to get the 2/3 Congressional majority to pass it
    Yes, fair point.
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    Who's your choice to be the next SNP leader?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,095

    HYUFD said:

    The controversial Thueringen PM elected with AfD support has resigned. As expected, his election triggered a huge wave of support for the Left party (who have otherwise been drifting in the polls), who should do well if there are fresh elections there.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/breaking-thuringias-newly-elected-minister-president-kemmerich-steps-down/?utm_source=EURACTIV&utm_campaign=17c0ef10fa-The_Brief_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c59e2fd7a9-17c0ef10fa-114478043

    I suspect that the AfD will eventually become regarded as possible local partners, and the Left has been despite their Communist past, but not yet.

    What was triggered was more a public outcry against utilizing the votes of the fascists, how much the Linke can benefit in the upcoming early elections is unclear at this point, much will depend on whether Ramelow will be the lead candidate again.
    On a local (municipal) level the Linke are already well established as a potential partner for the other parties, at least in Eastern Germany, in Western Germany this is still a rare occurance.


    Should they be able to purge themselves of the avowed and unashamed fascists (like their Thuringian subset) there might be a road to cooperation with CDU/FDP, e.g. the more moderate Mecklenburg-Vorpommern AfD state party, but the likelihood of that is rather remote at this point and it would take probably a decade or more to get there.
    The problem the CDU have is, unpalatable though the AfD are at the moment they are splitting the vote on the right and thus preventing the usual CDU and FDP centre right coalition from ever having a chance of winning a majority again for the foreseeable future. Merkel may fatal to chances of a right of centre majority, particularly in the former 2 where Les Republicains and the CDU will not deal with Le Pen's party or the AfD


    Broadly correct, except: The frantic right in Italy has just about peaked, in Austria it is in decline, Kurz has gone into coalition with the Greens, in Germany that is the most likely outcome next time around (and more favourable than hypothetical polls indicate).

    I'm lacking the insight into France/Spain to make a call on that.
    I think Salvini wins a majority next time, he would do on current Italian polls.

    Kurz entered Government with the Freedom Party even if he is now governing with the Greens. I agree as long as Merkel remains Chancellor she will go into coalition with the Greens rather than the AfD and FDP (as she is with the SPD now)
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496
    Nigelb said:

    FPT Ode To Joy is one of the finest pieces of music ever written. You have to be Pavlovian trained by Brexit to dislike it.

    No, you don't.
    This remainer loves Beethoven, but is not particularly keen on OTJ.
    Did he write it when he was deaf? I think I remember that being the case. Chalk me up as the opposite, a leaver who has absolutely no objection to it.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,095
    edited February 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And that's Buttigieg's issue. He needs to win - or at least to come a very close second to Sanders - in NH. And then he needs to perform well again in Nevada.

    It's by no means impossible. But it's also far from certain.
    Today's New Hampshire polls again

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1225271118111662080?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1225274580660604928?s=20
    Monmouth is also out today. See the 538 link I posted earlier. That has it as a tight Sanders-Buttigieg fight.

    NH should be a Sanders win, and other than Vermont was his single best Primary* state in 2016.

    Buttigieg doesn't have to win NH. But he has to be a long, long way ahead of Biden and the other moderates. That's the only way he can get the momentum needed.

    It's a difficult task for him, but not an impossible one.

    * He did better in some caucuses
    Buttigieg needs a strong second in New Hampshire at least certainly as South Carolina still looks to be a Biden win assuming it votes the same way as its neighbour
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    edited February 2020

    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Warren still going at it in South Carolina so she won't be withdrawing after NH no matter what

    https://twitter.com/joshjame/status/1225442391034863617?s=19

    Wouldn't go down well in left-wing circles here.
    Middle class is much broader in the USA.
    Middle Class in the US doesn't really mean the same thing. It really encapsulates working people who have steady jobs often in semi-skilled / skilled roles, so in the UK it would include pretty much all what we call the working class e.g. all your factory / warehouse type workers.

    It is a way of referring to a demographic of people who aren't on benefits, but head off to work every day, even for very low wages e.g. we would call working poor, through to normal office type workers.
    So it means people in the middle, rather than the top 5%.
    Most people in the UK who put their kids through private education* self-identify as middle class.

    (* i.e. approximately the richest 7%)
    I remember smiling when I read Lord Hailsham's autobiography 'A Sparrow's Flight' (very good, by the way), where he self-defined as middle-class on the basis that he worked for a living i.e. he didn't have an independent income. This despite the fact that his father was a viscount (as he would be), with a house in the country, a seven-bedroom townhouse in London (both with servants), and was sent to Eton.
    Indeed, very funny!

    Still, I self-identify as working-class (due to my ordinary background, having a single parent on benefit support at times, and having worked all my life for my living) but...

    ...I suspect most people would look at my lifestyle now and say it was middle-class or even upper middle-class.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    Who's your choice to be the next SNP leader?

    Kinda depends on whose social media stands up to scrutiny.....
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    What is it called when you prefer people of one continent over others?

    https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1225466671420317696?s=20

    That’s a poorly constructed question. It prompts people with a cue.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    edited February 2020
    Reports of the whistleblower doctor's coronavirus death may have been exaggerated. Let's hope so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-from-coronavirus

    (PS the URL text is misleading)
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,313

    Nigelb said:

    FPT Ode To Joy is one of the finest pieces of music ever written. You have to be Pavlovian trained by Brexit to dislike it.

    No, you don't.
    This remainer loves Beethoven, but is not particularly keen on OTJ.
    Did he write it when he was deaf? I think I remember that being the case. Chalk me up as the opposite, a leaver who has absolutely no objection to it.
    I believe it was supposed to be dedicated to Napoleon but the dedication got removed after Boney morphed into a power hungry dictator (as perceived by LvB)
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297
    Nigelb said:
    Thank you. Bookmarked. Do not want to read it - since from the opening I sense that it will depress and anger me further on this topic - but I damn well will.
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    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    rpjs said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    Ah, Ayn Rand, the high priestess of selfishness. She posited an ideology that was the exact opposite of Orwell's 1984 but just as evil. The difference was Orwell meant his as a warning, she meant hers as a blueprint.

    I always felt that one of the earliest negative influences of the public internet was that Rand's insidious ideology began to spread from the US to the rest of the world. Growing up and going to university in the 70s and 80s, I'd never heard of her (and neither had anyone I knew), except for occasional name-dropping in the more loonier right-wing haunts of American science fiction (Heinlein, Pournelle).

    That said, I'd sooner vote for her re-animated corpse than Trump.
    We now live in a world where so many people who told the world that they where virtuous and doing things for the grater good have been exposed, Jimmy Saval, lots of Catholic priests, and corrupt politicians.

    And at the same time lots of people Bill Gates, Geff Bozo, Steve Jobes and Eleon Musk. have changes our would for the better while being critasised because 'they are only doing it to make money.

    Reading Atlas Shrugged, change my life,for the better. I've still not met a person who has read her work and still thinks she is evel. but lots of people who miss understand the consent of 'rational self interest'

    I don't think I'm going to change anybodys mind with a blog comment, and you are free to state your opinion. but I whole hardheartedly disagree.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,313
    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I have yet to find an improvement on my daughter's definition that she came up with when studying sociology. Middle class people are people who can keep alcohol in their home for more than a week.

    "Deferred Gratification" is one of the absolute definers of the middle class.

    Ahem. Remind me again which class it was that invented the phrase "wine o'clock" and spend every evening after 8am quietly trollied because drinking wine out of a nice glass every day is somehow not a sign of alcoholism.


    A nice slip with the time of day, there.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    The last genuine libertarian Ayn Rand candidate the GOP nominated was Barry Goldwater in 1964 and LBJ trounced him with over 60% of the vote.

    An electable Ayn Rand candidate is a contradiction in terms, few voters want social liberalism as well as no welfare state and privatised Medicare
    Don't be so absolutist. Our greatest postwar PM and Americas greatest postwar President were both libertarians.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The controversial Thueringen PM elected with AfD support has resigned. As expected, his election triggered a huge wave of support for the Left party (who have otherwise been drifting in the polls), who should do well if there are fresh elections there.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/breaking-thuringias-newly-elected-minister-president-kemmerich-steps-down/?utm_source=EURACTIV&utm_campaign=17c0ef10fa-The_Brief_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c59e2fd7a9-17c0ef10fa-114478043

    I suspect that the AfD will eventually become regarded as possible local partners, and the Left has been despite their Communist past, but not yet.



    Should they be able to purge themselves of the avowed and unashamed fascists (like their Thuringian subset) there might be a road to cooperation with CDU/FDP, e.g. the more moderate Mecklenburg-Vorpommern AfD state party, but the likelihood of that is rather remote at this point and it would take probably a decade or more to get there.
    The problem the CDU have is, unpalatable though the AfD are at the moment they are splitting the vote on the right and thus preventing the usual CDU and FDP centre right coalition from ever having a chance of winning a majority again for the foreseeable future. Merkel may fatal to chances of a right of centre majority, particularly in the former 2 where Les Republicains and the CDU will not deal with Le Pen's party or the AfD


    Broadly correct, except: The frantic right in Italy has just about peaked, in Austria it is in decline, Kurz has gone into coalition with the Greens, in Germany that is the most likely outcome next time around (and more favourable than hypothetical polls indicate).

    I'm lacking the insight into France/Spain to make a call on that.
    I think Salvini wins a majority next time, he would do on current Italian polls.

    Kurz entered Government with the Freedom Party even if he is now governing with the Greens. I agree as long as Merkel remains Chancellor she will go into coalition with the Greens rather than the AfD and FDP (as she is with the SPD now)
    Kurz's experience with the FPÖ coalition was horrid, both lost heavily on that.

    Merkel's influence on party politics is approaching zero, but this is not about her.
    Many Conservatives see a C/G coalition as the best way forward. Especially in the CSU. They are publically agitating against the 'tree huggers' but behind the scenes preparations are being made.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,218
    edited February 2020

    Nigelb said:

    FPT Ode To Joy is one of the finest pieces of music ever written. You have to be Pavlovian trained by Brexit to dislike it.

    No, you don't.
    This remainer loves Beethoven, but is not particularly keen on OTJ.
    Did he write it when he was deaf? I think I remember that being the case. Chalk me up as the opposite, a leaver who has absolutely no objection to it.
    There's a current theory that Beethoven was not completely deaf when he wrote the 9th which shouldn't of course detract from the music.

    "‘Deaf’ genius Beethoven was able to hear his final symphony after all"

    https://tinyurl.com/yx7ye56c
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT Ode To Joy is one of the finest pieces of music ever written. You have to be Pavlovian trained by Brexit to dislike it.

    No, you don't.
    This remainer loves Beethoven, but is not particularly keen on OTJ.
    Did he write it when he was deaf? I think I remember that being the case. Chalk me up as the opposite, a leaver who has absolutely no objection to it.
    I believe it was supposed to be dedicated to Napoleon but the dedication got removed after Boney morphed into a power hungry dictator (as perceived by LvB)
    Are you disputing LvB's assessment of Boney?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,906
    IanB2 said:

    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I have yet to find an improvement on my daughter's definition that she came up with when studying sociology. Middle class people are people who can keep alcohol in their home for more than a week.

    "Deferred Gratification" is one of the absolute definers of the middle class.

    Ahem. Remind me again which class it was that invented the phrase "wine o'clock" and spend every evening after 8am quietly trollied because drinking wine out of a nice glass every day is somehow not a sign of alcoholism.


    A nice slip with the time of day, there.
    :)
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297

    Isn't as much to do with amounts as self control? If I buy a case of (just to make it clear I'm on the foothills of the middle class range) fairly undistinguished wine, with the best/worst will in the world I'm not going to drink it in a week, whereas your guy with his 40 ouncer of Asda own brand can have it done and dusted in a couple of days, particularly if it's a family affair.

    Yes, booze not the best example. I was straining to hang my offering onto @DavidL amusing comment from his daughter. And I also should have been talking about achievement not class as such. But, yes, the ability to defer something you want right now for the sake of something better down the line is, I understand, one of the most powerful predictors of "getting on".
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    edited February 2020

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    The last genuine libertarian Ayn Rand candidate the GOP nominated was Barry Goldwater in 1964 and LBJ trounced him with over 60% of the vote.

    An electable Ayn Rand candidate is a contradiction in terms, few voters want social liberalism as well as no welfare state and privatised Medicare
    Don't be so absolutist. Our greatest postwar PM and Americas greatest postwar President were both libertarians.
    What was libertarian about Section 28? Or the ban on SF voices being heard on broadcast media?

    (Or did you mean Attlee? :wink:)
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    BigRich said:

    rpjs said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    Ah, Ayn Rand, the high priestess of selfishness. She posited an ideology that was the exact opposite of Orwell's 1984 but just as evil. The difference was Orwell meant his as a warning, she meant hers as a blueprint.

    I always felt that one of the earliest negative influences of the public internet was that Rand's insidious ideology began to spread from the US to the rest of the world. Growing up and going to university in the 70s and 80s, I'd never heard of her (and neither had anyone I knew), except for occasional name-dropping in the more loonier right-wing haunts of American science fiction (Heinlein, Pournelle).

    That said, I'd sooner vote for her re-animated corpse than Trump.
    We now live in a world where so many people who told the world that they where virtuous and doing things for the grater good have been exposed, Jimmy Saval, lots of Catholic priests, and corrupt politicians.

    And at the same time lots of people Bill Gates, Geff Bozo, Steve Jobes and Eleon Musk. have changes our would for the better while being critasised because 'they are only doing it to make money.

    Reading Atlas Shrugged, change my life,for the better. I've still not met a person who has read her work and still thinks she is evel. but lots of people who miss understand the consent of 'rational self interest'

    I don't think I'm going to change anybodys mind with a blog comment, and you are free to state your opinion. but I whole hardheartedly disagree.
    I've read Anthem and got about a quarter of the way into The Fountainhead and that was enough for me. Maybe I will give Atlas Shrugged a try one day, as I am a member of PB's Sunilista tendency (i.e. I like trains) but probably not until I'm retired and have finally caught up with my tsundoku.

    I am always heartened though that Rand ended up proving that all libertarians are hypocrites by living off the common weal in her old age.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,728
    kinabalu said:

    Isn't as much to do with amounts as self control? If I buy a case of (just to make it clear I'm on the foothills of the middle class range) fairly undistinguished wine, with the best/worst will in the world I'm not going to drink it in a week, whereas your guy with his 40 ouncer of Asda own brand can have it done and dusted in a couple of days, particularly if it's a family affair.

    Yes, booze not the best example. I was straining to hang my offering onto @DavidL amusing comment from his daughter. And I also should have been talking about achievement not class as such. But, yes, the ability to defer something you want right now for the sake of something better down the line is, I understand, one of the most powerful predictors of "getting on".
    If you only have enough just to get by on, making a conscious decision to defer gratification is not really an option... You cannot save for the future and you have little gratification to defer anyway; you do however have lots of unattainable gratification.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352



    Don't be so absolutist. Our greatest postwar PM and Americas greatest postwar President were both libertarians.

    Attlee and Clinton were libertarians? :)
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297

    Haha, it's funny how differently people see things. On balance, I'd prefer Trump to lose because he's too stupid and reckless to avoid making decisions that potentially imperil the planet. But the hegemonic authority with which he empowers the right all across the world - while both triggering and cowing the global left at the same time - makes me root for him deep down.

    So I'll be happy with the result in November either way :smile:

    He's empowering the wrong sort of right. Wake up. You wouldn't like it, I sense, if it came to pass. And if you would, well, no comment.
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    BigRich said:

    rpjs said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    Ah, Ayn Rand, the high priestess of selfishness. She posited an ideology that was the exact opposite of Orwell's 1984 but just as evil. The difference was Orwell meant his as a warning, she meant hers as a blueprint.

    I always felt that one of the earliest negative influences of the public internet was that Rand's insidious ideology began to spread from the US to the rest of the world. Growing up and going to university in the 70s and 80s, I'd never heard of her (and neither had anyone I knew), except for occasional name-dropping in the more loonier right-wing haunts of American science fiction (Heinlein, Pournelle).

    That said, I'd sooner vote for her re-animated corpse than Trump.
    We now live in a world where so many people who told the world that they where virtuous and doing things for the grater good have been exposed, Jimmy Saval, lots of Catholic priests, and corrupt politicians.

    And at the same time lots of people Bill Gates, Geff Bozo, Steve Jobes and Eleon Musk. have changes our would for the better while being critasised because 'they are only doing it to make money.

    Reading Atlas Shrugged, change my life,for the better. I've still not met a person who has read her work and still thinks she is evel. but lots of people who miss understand the consent of 'rational self interest'

    I don't think I'm going to change anybodys mind with a blog comment, and you are free to state your opinion. but I whole hardheartedly disagree.
    Very well said.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,740
    edited February 2020
    rpjs said:

    BigRich said:

    rpjs said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    Ah, Ayn Rand, the high priestess of selfishness. She posited an ideology that was the exact opposite of Orwell's 1984 but just as evil. The difference was Orwell meant his as a warning, she meant hers as a blueprint.


    That said, I'd sooner vote for her re-animated corpse than Trump.
    We now live in a world where so many people who told the world that they where virtuous and doing things for the grater good have been exposed, Jimmy Saval, lots of Catholic priests, and corrupt politicians.

    And at the same time lots of people Bill Gates, Geff Bozo, Steve Jobes and Eleon Musk. have changes our would for the better while being critasised because 'they are only doing it to make money.

    Reading Atlas Shrugged, change my life,for the better. I've still not met a person who has read her work and still thinks she is evel. but lots of people who miss understand the consent of 'rational self interest'

    I don't think I'm going to change anybodys mind with a blog comment, and you are free to state your opinion. but I whole hardheartedly disagree.
    I've read Anthem and got about a quarter of the way into The Fountainhead and that was enough for me. Maybe I will give Atlas Shrugged a try one day, as I am a member of PB's Sunilista tendency (i.e. I like trains) but probably not until I'm retired and have finally caught up with my tsundoku.

    I am always heartened though that Rand ended up proving that all libertarians are hypocrites by living off the common weal in her old age.
    I read Atlas Shrugged, and assumed it was satire.
    On being told it was a manifesto, I concluded she was a lunatic.

    And I note that the sympathetically portrayed protagonist of the Fountainhead (as in Atlas Shrugged) is a rapist.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,505

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    The last genuine libertarian Ayn Rand candidate the GOP nominated was Barry Goldwater in 1964 and LBJ trounced him with over 60% of the vote.

    An electable Ayn Rand candidate is a contradiction in terms, few voters want social liberalism as well as no welfare state and privatised Medicare
    Don't be so absolutist. Our greatest postwar PM and Americas greatest postwar President were both libertarians.
    What was libertarian about Section 28? Or the ban on SF voices being heard on broadcast media?

    (Or did you mean Attlee? :wink:)
    Then again, Thatcher and her cabinet rejected out of hand a suggestion that benefits should be withdrawn from convicted terrorists - some of whom had tried to kill them (the cabinet).

    For those who don't know - the PIRA was a terrible employer. Most of it's "soldiers" lived on benefits and scrounged odd hours of jobs here and there.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    Away from our meanderings, fascinating developments in Thuringia as the FDP leader chosen as Prime Minister in the Regional Government has stepped down having discovered (apparently) he was voted in with AfD and CDU support. Merkel has slapped down the local CDU so it looks as though there could be fresh elections.

    Hamburg votes on February 23rd - since the last provincial election the SPD are down 12 to 34% - that is scarcely believable, that would be like Labour polling 40% in Newham. The CDU are down two to 14% and the Greens have advanced 15 to 27% and a clear second place.

    The current SPD-Green coalition has 73 of the 121 seats in the local parliament so that may not change very much though the balance (59 SPD to 14 Green) will perhaps move to more like 40-35.

    The Greens will certainly gain a lot, but the numbers for SPD and CDU are very volatile.

    Another Green/CDU coalition is not inconceivable, remember: the first G/C coalition was forged here in Hamburg, it broke up after two years, but not for fundamental reasons, and there is a sizable support for a re-run (including myself).
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    Reports of the whistleblower doctor's coronavirus death may have been exaggerated. Let's hope so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-from-coronavirus

    (PS the URL text is misleading)

    Yes, I hope so too. It is interesting how an eye specialist came to be the whistleblower for an infectious respiratory disease.

    The slow course of the condition, with symptoms starting 10 Jan, formal diagnosis ten days later and peaking 10 days later is quite ominous.

    Normally flu has a peak mortality due to secondary bacterial pneumonia in already compromised individuals. This fellow seems to be a previously fit relatively young man. That would suggest to me a "cytokine storm" type effect. Very dangerous and hard to treat.

    As someone likely to be in the front line, if it spreads here, it is rather scary. I think spread is a matter of time, but delaying that spread is critical in terms of finding a vaccine* or treatment.

    *Let's see how many anti-vaxers there are then!
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    The last genuine libertarian Ayn Rand candidate the GOP nominated was Barry Goldwater in 1964 and LBJ trounced him with over 60% of the vote.

    An electable Ayn Rand candidate is a contradiction in terms, few voters want social liberalism as well as no welfare state and privatised Medicare
    Don't be so absolutist. Our greatest postwar PM and Americas greatest postwar President were both libertarians.
    What was libertarian about Section 28? Or the ban on SF voices being heard on broadcast media?

    (Or did you mean Attlee? :wink:)
    I said don't be absolutist. Thatcher and Reagan were not perfect but they were very libertarian.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,740
    Foxy said:

    Reports of the whistleblower doctor's coronavirus death may have been exaggerated. Let's hope so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-from-coronavirus

    (PS the URL text is misleading)

    Yes, I hope so too. It is interesting how an eye specialist came to be the whistleblower for an infectious respiratory disease.

    The slow course of the condition, with symptoms starting 10 Jan, formal diagnosis ten days later and peaking 10 days later is quite ominous.

    Normally flu has a peak mortality due to secondary bacterial pneumonia in already compromised individuals. This fellow seems to be a previously fit relatively young man. That would suggest to me a "cytokine storm" type effect. Very dangerous and hard to treat...
    Isn’t that how the 1918 flu is supposed to have killed many of its victims ?

    And what is the shortest time in which a vaccine might be tested in humans and then manufactured in bulk (assuming we already have designed an effective one which has successfully tested in animal models) ?
  • Options

    stodge said:

    Away from our meanderings, fascinating developments in Thuringia as the FDP leader chosen as Prime Minister in the Regional Government has stepped down having discovered (apparently) he was voted in with AfD and CDU support. Merkel has slapped down the local CDU so it looks as though there could be fresh elections.

    Hamburg votes on February 23rd - since the last provincial election the SPD are down 12 to 34% - that is scarcely believable, that would be like Labour polling 40% in Newham. The CDU are down two to 14% and the Greens have advanced 15 to 27% and a clear second place.

    The current SPD-Green coalition has 73 of the 121 seats in the local parliament so that may not change very much though the balance (59 SPD to 14 Green) will perhaps move to more like 40-35.

    The Greens will certainly gain a lot, but the numbers for SPD and CDU are very volatile.

    Another Green/CDU coalition is not inconceivable, remember: the first G/C coalition was forged here in Hamburg, it broke up after two years, but not for fundamental reasons, and there is a sizable support for a re-run (including myself).
    Regardless of the outcome, I do not live in either Wales or Scotland and thus envy your system of autonomous meaningful regional government throughout Germany by comparison to the utterly centralised system of central control still prevalent in England. I also welcome the commitment of at least one of the Labour leadership candidates to pursue constitutional reforms that might eventually lead to something similar here.
  • Options

    Who's your choice to be the next SNP leader?

    Kinda depends on whose social media stands up to scrutiny.....
    Social media doesn't really do anyone any favours.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Nigelb said:

    By my count from the BBC's list there's been 228 confirmed cases of the coronavirus from outside China and so far 2 fatalities outside China. Which albeit a small sample is a morbidity rate of just under 1%

    Of course some of those who have been confirmed may not survive, but equally others may have caught it but not been diagnosed, it seems quite unlikely to me that the Chinese are massaging the figures to save face and the morbidity rate is worse than 2%

    At the risk of being alarmist, the Chinese doctor who tried to warn about coronavirus on 30 December, died today, over 5 weeks later.

    How many of the 228 will succumb in the coming weeks?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/feb/06/coronavirus-live-updates-in-china-wuhan-coronaviruses-outbreak-death-toll-latest-update-news?page=with:block-5e3c28408f086a28115a6ce7#block-5e3c28408f086a28115a6ce7
    Not alarmist at all.
    What it demonstrates is just how limited is knowledge of the disease progression. He was aware of symptoms a month ago, and has only now succumbed.
    We also don’t have much of an idea of what percentage of the actually infected have been identified by the Chinese, and how many others there are.

    As it’s now clear the Chinese have identified symptom free carriers who have infected others, it also looks as though going to be very difficult to control any time soon.
    Offices in Pudong are now shut for 2 weeks plus. Allegedly WFH, in practice bugger all work will be done. The consequences of this for the economy and, ultimately, the CCP will be interesting.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297
    edited February 2020
    isam said:

    Yes, what I meant was that Muslims would eventually, if their share of the population continues to grow at the current rate, obtain some kind of control through democratic representation, be it via a new party or a takeover of a current one. I reckon this would see a fall in Islamic extremism, but a rise in Right wing extremism, with a net result possibly worse than what we have now.

    On your second point, it is just silly to self identify as this, that or the other as if people, who probably made their minds up long ago, would take any notice. Along with lengthy twitter bios, it is just a cry for people to see you as you want to be seen, with little resemblance to the truth, and is rather vain to put it mildly. People are desperate for rigid parameters and objective truths, but life is more complicated than that, even for astute observers.

    OK. But my serious point - and why on earth not just make it instead of beating about the bush? - is that when it comes to bad things like being racist, the only thing that matters is what you say and do. The externals. If a person never utters or writes a racist word and never does a racist thing, it matters not a jot that in their heart and mind they are a hardcore racist. In the only sense that matters - interface between them and the world - such a person is not racist. And of course the opposite applies too. If you are not at all racist in heart and mind but you go around being racist or encouraging racism - e.g. for political gain a la Trump or to make money a la Rod Liddle - then you ARE a racist, full stop. (Of course I am not here implying that either Trump or Liddle are not racist in heart and mind too. They probably are. But that's not what matters, is the point.)

    Same applies to - yes I am happy with this - paedophilia. A man who 'has' this perversion but who lives his entire life without ever, not a single time, acting on it in any way which has a real world impact, such a man is not a paedophile. Indeed he could be viewed as admirable. Because he fights it and wins. Ditto with the "racist" who keeps it all within and is thus not a racist.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Reports of the whistleblower doctor's coronavirus death may have been exaggerated. Let's hope so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-from-coronavirus

    (PS the URL text is misleading)

    Yes, I hope so too. It is interesting how an eye specialist came to be the whistleblower for an infectious respiratory disease.

    The slow course of the condition, with symptoms starting 10 Jan, formal diagnosis ten days later and peaking 10 days later is quite ominous.

    Normally flu has a peak mortality due to secondary bacterial pneumonia in already compromised individuals. This fellow seems to be a previously fit relatively young man. That would suggest to me a "cytokine storm" type effect. Very dangerous and hard to treat...
    Isn’t that how the 1918 flu is supposed to have killed many of its victims ?

    And what is the shortest time in which a vaccine might be tested in humans and then manufactured in bulk (assuming we already have designed an effective one which has successfully tested in animal models) ?
    On R4 this lunch time the experts were saying they 'might' have a usable vaccine ready at the start of next year.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Yes, what I meant was that Muslims would eventually, if their share of the population continues to grow at the current rate, obtain some kind of control through democratic representation, be it via a new party or a takeover of a current one. I reckon this would see a fall in Islamic extremism, but a rise in Right wing extremism, with a net result possibly worse than what we have now.

    On your second point, it is just silly to self identify as this, that or the other as if people, who probably made their minds up long ago, would take any notice. Along with lengthy twitter bios, it is just a cry for people to see you as you want to be seen, with little resemblance to the truth, and is rather vain to put it mildly. People are desperate for rigid parameters and objective truths, but life is more complicated than that, even for astute observers.

    OK. But my serious point - and why on earth not just make it instead of beating about the bush? - is that when it comes to bad things like being racist, the only thing that matters is what you say and do. The externals. If a person never utters or writes a racist word and never does a racist thing, it matters not a jot that in their heart and mind they are a hardcore racist. In the only sense that matters - interface between them and the world - such a person is not racist. And of course the opposite applies too. If you are not at all racist in heart and mind but you go around being racist or encouraging racism - e.g. for political gain a la Trump or to make money a la Rod Liddle - then you ARE a racist, full stop. (Of course I am not here implying that either Trump or Liddle are not racist in heart and mind. They probably are.)

    Same applies to - yes I am happy with this - paedophilia. A man who 'has' this perversion but who lives his entire life without ever, not a single time, acting on it in any way which has a real world impact, such a man is not a paedophile. Indeed he could be viewed as admirable. Because he fights it and wins. Ditto withe "racist" who keeps it all within and is thus not a racist.
    I'm not sure it's as simple as that. For example, consider the "shy racist" who keeps their views to themselves because they've figured out that it's unacceptable in the society they keep, but who would never consider employing a non-white. They're almost impossible to spot on their own, but enough of them across society creates a visible level of inequality.

    In short, are there not things that constitute "interface" with the world, but are effectively invisible?
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Yes, what I meant was that Muslims would eventually, if their share of the population continues to grow at the current rate, obtain some kind of control through democratic representation, be it via a new party or a takeover of a current one. I reckon this would see a fall in Islamic extremism, but a rise in Right wing extremism, with a net result possibly worse than what we have now.

    On your second point, it is just silly to self identify as this, that or the other as if people, who probably made their minds up long ago, would take any notice. Along with lengthy twitter bios, it is just a cry for people to see you as you want to be seen, with little resemblance to the truth, and is rather vain to put it mildly. People are desperate for rigid parameters and objective truths, but life is more complicated than that, even for astute observers.

    OK. But my serious point - and why on earth not just make it instead of beating about the bush? - is that when it comes to bad things like being racist, the only thing that matters is what you say and do. The externals. If a person never utters or writes a racist word and never does a racist thing, it matters not a jot that in their heart and mind they are a hardcore racist. In the only sense that matters - interface between them and the world - such a person is not racist. And of course the opposite applies too. If you are not at all racist in heart and mind but you go around being racist or encouraging racism - e.g. for political gain a la Trump or to make money a la Rod Liddle - then you ARE a racist, full stop. (Of course I am not here implying that either Trump or Liddle are not racist in heart and mind too. They probably are. But that's not what matters, is the point.)

    Same applies to - yes I am happy with this - paedophilia. A man who 'has' this perversion but who lives his entire life without ever, not a single time, acting on it in any way which has a real world impact, such a man is not a paedophile. Indeed he could be viewed as admirable. Because he fights it and wins. Ditto with the "racist" who keeps it all within and is thus not a racist.
    I’m glad you’ve finally concluded that Jeremy Corbyn shows all the behaviours of a racist.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited February 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Haha, it's funny how differently people see things. On balance, I'd prefer Trump to lose because he's too stupid and reckless to avoid making decisions that potentially imperil the planet. But the hegemonic authority with which he empowers the right all across the world - while both triggering and cowing the global left at the same time - makes me root for him deep down.

    So I'll be happy with the result in November either way :smile:

    He's empowering the wrong sort of right. Wake up. You wouldn't like it, I sense, if it came to pass. And if you would, well, no comment.
    Like I say, on balance I'd prefer he lose - and if I lived in the US, I'd be more strongly opposed to him. His platform (in the widest sense) is about 25% spot on and indispensable, 50% stupid and pointless, and 25% dangerous.

    But that first 25% though... it's a pure hit of a political substance that you simply don't get anywhere else.
  • Options

    stodge said:

    Away from our meanderings, fascinating developments in Thuringia as the FDP leader chosen as Prime Minister in the Regional Government has stepped down having discovered (apparently) he was voted in with AfD and CDU support. Merkel has slapped down the local CDU so it looks as though there could be fresh elections.

    Hamburg votes on February 23rd - since the last provincial election the SPD are down 12 to 34% - that is scarcely believable, that would be like Labour polling 40% in Newham. The CDU are down two to 14% and the Greens have advanced 15 to 27% and a clear second place.

    The current SPD-Green coalition has 73 of the 121 seats in the local parliament so that may not change very much though the balance (59 SPD to 14 Green) will perhaps move to more like 40-35.

    The Greens will certainly gain a lot, but the numbers for SPD and CDU are very volatile.

    Another Green/CDU coalition is not inconceivable, remember: the first G/C coalition was forged here in Hamburg, it broke up after two years, but not for fundamental reasons, and there is a sizable support for a re-run (including myself).
    Regardless of the outcome, I do not live in either Wales or Scotland and thus envy your system of autonomous meaningful regional government throughout Germany by comparison to the utterly centralised system of central control still prevalent in England. I also welcome the commitment of at least one of the Labour leadership candidates to pursue constitutional reforms that might eventually lead to something similar here.
    I very much like to hope that such a development may help you to find a little more peace amongst yourself, but it should be noted that this is not a certainty.
    The German subdivisions (Bundesländer) are not the product of devolution, as would be the case in the UK, most of them have grown over a very long time.
    Most are, more or less in their current form, older than the Bundesrepublik entity itself, thus are very strongly ingrained in people's identities.
    They all have their own costitutions, plus independent executive, legal, and judicial institutions. The degree of independence (or call it sovereignty, if you like) is far greater than anything that devoluted Scotland currently enjoys.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Reports of the whistleblower doctor's coronavirus death may have been exaggerated. Let's hope so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-from-coronavirus

    (PS the URL text is misleading)

    Yes, I hope so too. It is interesting how an eye specialist came to be the whistleblower for an infectious respiratory disease.

    The slow course of the condition, with symptoms starting 10 Jan, formal diagnosis ten days later and peaking 10 days later is quite ominous.

    Normally flu has a peak mortality due to secondary bacterial pneumonia in already compromised individuals. This fellow seems to be a previously fit relatively young man. That would suggest to me a "cytokine storm" type effect. Very dangerous and hard to treat...
    Isn’t that how the 1918 flu is supposed to have killed many of its victims ?

    And what is the shortest time in which a vaccine might be tested in humans and then manufactured in bulk (assuming we already have designed an effective one which has successfully tested in animal models) ?
    Yes, it does seem as if "cytokine storm" was a big factor in the Spanish Flu.

    Even trials of a vaccine are likely to be months away.
  • Options

    stodge said:

    Away from our meanderings, fascinating developments in Thuringia as the FDP leader chosen as Prime Minister in the Regional Government has stepped down having discovered (apparently) he was voted in with AfD and CDU support. Merkel has slapped down the local CDU so it looks as though there could be fresh elections.

    Hamburg votes on February 23rd - since the last provincial election the SPD are down 12 to 34% - that is scarcely believable, that would be like Labour polling 40% in Newham. The CDU are down two to 14% and the Greens have advanced 15 to 27% and a clear second place.

    The current SPD-Green coalition has 73 of the 121 seats in the local parliament so that may not change very much though the balance (59 SPD to 14 Green) will perhaps move to more like 40-35.

    The Greens will certainly gain a lot, but the numbers for SPD and CDU are very volatile.

    Another Green/CDU coalition is not inconceivable, remember: the first G/C coalition was forged here in Hamburg, it broke up after two years, but not for fundamental reasons, and there is a sizable support for a re-run (including myself).
    Regardless of the outcome, I do not live in either Wales or Scotland and thus envy your system of autonomous meaningful regional government throughout Germany by comparison to the utterly centralised system of central control still prevalent in England. I also welcome the commitment of at least one of the Labour leadership candidates to pursue constitutional reforms that might eventually lead to something similar here.
    I very much like to hope that such a development may help you to find a little more peace amongst yourself, but it should be noted that this is not a certainty.
    The German subdivisions (Bundesländer) are not the product of devolution, as would be the case in the UK, most of them have grown over a very long time.
    Most are, more or less in their current form, older than the Bundesrepublik entity itself, thus are very strongly ingrained in people's identities.
    They all have their own costitutions, plus independent executive, legal, and judicial institutions. The degree of independence (or call it sovereignty, if you like) is far greater than anything that devoluted Scotland currently enjoys.
    Obviously this is also one of the key reasons why we Germans are so much more susceptible to living in an overarching federalist structure than the British (English esp.), we are just accustomed to it, including accepting the pros and cons.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297
    matt said:

    I’m glad you’ve finally concluded that Jeremy Corbyn shows all the behaviours of a racist.

    A bit 'cute' but far from the worst point you've ever made.

    Yes, you have it.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,954
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Yes, what I meant was that Muslims would eventually, if their share of the population continues to grow at the current rate, obtain some kind of control through democratic representation, be it via a new party or a takeover of a current one. I reckon this would see a fall in Islamic extremism, but a rise in Right wing extremism, with a net result possibly worse than what we have now.

    On your second point, it is just silly to self identify as this, that or the other as if people, who probably made their minds up long ago, would take any notice. Along with lengthy twitter bios, it is just a cry for people to see you as you want to be seen, with little resemblance to the truth, and is rather vain to put it mildly. People are desperate for rigid parameters and objective truths, but life is more complicated than that, even for astute observers.

    OK. But my serious point - and why on earth not just make it instead of beating about the bush? - is that when it comes to bad things like being racist, the only thing that matters is what you say and do. The externals. If a person never utters or writes a racist word and never does a racist thing, it matters not a jot that in their heart and mind they are a hardcore racist. In the only sense that matters - interface between them and the world - such a person is not racist. And of course the opposite applies too. If you are not at all racist in heart and mind but you go around being racist or encouraging racism - e.g. for political gain a la Trump or to make money a la Rod Liddle - then you ARE a racist, full stop. (Of course I am not here implying that either Trump or Liddle are not racist in heart and mind too. They probably are. But that's not what matters, is the point.)

    Same applies to - yes I am happy with this - paedophilia. A man who 'has' this perversion but who lives his entire life without ever, not a single time, acting on it in any way which has a real world impact, such a man is not a paedophile. Indeed he could be viewed as admirable. Because he fights it and wins. Ditto with the "racist" who keeps it all within and is thus not a racist.
    Who's arguing?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,740
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Reports of the whistleblower doctor's coronavirus death may have been exaggerated. Let's hope so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-from-coronavirus

    (PS the URL text is misleading)

    Yes, I hope so too. It is interesting how an eye specialist came to be the whistleblower for an infectious respiratory disease.

    The slow course of the condition, with symptoms starting 10 Jan, formal diagnosis ten days later and peaking 10 days later is quite ominous.

    Normally flu has a peak mortality due to secondary bacterial pneumonia in already compromised individuals. This fellow seems to be a previously fit relatively young man. That would suggest to me a "cytokine storm" type effect. Very dangerous and hard to treat...
    Isn’t that how the 1918 flu is supposed to have killed many of its victims ?

    And what is the shortest time in which a vaccine might be tested in humans and then manufactured in bulk (assuming we already have designed an effective one which has successfully tested in animal models) ?
    Yes, it does seem as if "cytokine storm" was a big factor in the Spanish Flu.

    Even trials of a vaccine are likely to be months away.
    That I realise (and, of course, just how long is uncertain).
    I was just wondering how quickly the process might then proceed.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013

    stodge said:

    Away from our meanderings, fascinating developments in Thuringia as the FDP leader chosen as Prime Minister in the Regional Government has stepped down having discovered (apparently) he was voted in with AfD and CDU support. Merkel has slapped down the local CDU so it looks as though there could be fresh elections.

    Hamburg votes on February 23rd - since the last provincial election the SPD are down 12 to 34% - that is scarcely believable, that would be like Labour polling 40% in Newham. The CDU are down two to 14% and the Greens have advanced 15 to 27% and a clear second place.

    The current SPD-Green coalition has 73 of the 121 seats in the local parliament so that may not change very much though the balance (59 SPD to 14 Green) will perhaps move to more like 40-35.

    The Greens will certainly gain a lot, but the numbers for SPD and CDU are very volatile.

    Another Green/CDU coalition is not inconceivable, remember: the first G/C coalition was forged here in Hamburg, it broke up after two years, but not for fundamental reasons, and there is a sizable support for a re-run (including myself).
    Regardless of the outcome, I do not live in either Wales or Scotland and thus envy your system of autonomous meaningful regional government throughout Germany by comparison to the utterly centralised system of central control still prevalent in England. I also welcome the commitment of at least one of the Labour leadership candidates to pursue constitutional reforms that might eventually lead to something similar here.
    I very much like to hope that such a development may help you to find a little more peace amongst yourself, but it should be noted that this is not a certainty.
    The German subdivisions (Bundesländer) are not the product of devolution, as would be the case in the UK, most of them have grown over a very long time.
    Most are, more or less in their current form, older than the Bundesrepublik entity itself, thus are very strongly ingrained in people's identities.
    They all have their own costitutions, plus independent executive, legal, and judicial institutions. The degree of independence (or call it sovereignty, if you like) is far greater than anything that devoluted Scotland currently enjoys.
    An example is that in 2004, the man who is now chief of staff of the Government led the defeat of a referendum to devolve power to the North-East region from the "federal" government, after devolution to the three assemblies. Surely no such measure would pass in Germany, even if a referendum were possible.
  • Options

    stodge said:

    Apologies if this has been picked up earlier:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/rebecca-longbailey-labour-leadership-standard-poll-ipsos-mori-a4355286.html

    The VI poll has CON 47%, Labour 30%, LD 11%, Greens 5%, BXP 1%.

    "But Ms Long-Bailey came in even lower in the eyes of ordinary voters, with just 14 per cent of the public saying she had the makings of a prime minister, and just 27 per cent of Labour supporters. Moreover, only 28 per cent said they were likely to vote Labour if she took charge."

    Well, she's Continuity Corbyn with the voters.....
    Tory pollsters rattled at the RLB..... the cult can ignore such bias.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,877
    edited February 2020



    I very much like to hope that such a development may help you to find a little more peace amongst yourself, but it should be noted that this is not a certainty.
    The German subdivisions (Bundesländer) are not the product of devolution, as would be the case in the UK, most of them have grown over a very long time.
    Most are, more or less in their current form, older than the Bundesrepublik entity itself, thus are very strongly ingrained in people's identities.
    They all have their own costitutions, plus independent executive, legal, and judicial institutions. The degree of independence (or call it sovereignty, if you like) is far greater than anything that devoluted Scotland currently enjoys.

    There's little or no direct comparison - we once had seven kingdoms in what is now England and then had a period with three significant ones - Nortumbria, Mercia and Wessex (now, there's a thought).

    Many of the traditional "counties" emerged from those kingdoms though were never independent principalities in their own right. After all, medieval Germany was a patch work of city states and provinces.

    The tension between the central control of Whitehall/Westminster and the elected lower tiers is going to strengthen, I think, in the coming years as Boris Johnson is an inherent centraliser who believes a) there is no problem Government and Government money cannot resolve and b) he is best suited to controlling the levers of power and money so just as he took control of the Met and TfL from independent commissioners in London he will accrue more power into No.10 from Cabinet departments.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    rpjs said:

    BigRich said:

    rpjs said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    day.

    mp.
    We now live in a world where so many people who told the world that they where virtuous and doing things for the grater good have been exposed, Jimmy Saval, lots of Catholic priests, and corrupt politicians.

    And at the same time lots of people Bill Gates, Geff Bozo, Steve Jobes and Eleon Musk. have changes our would for the better while being critasised because 'they are only doing it to make money.

    Reading Atlas Shrugged, change my life,for the better. I've still not met a person who has read her work and still thinks she is evel. but lots of people who miss understand the consent of 'rational self interest'

    I don't think I'm going to change anybodys mind with a blog comment, and you are free to state your opinion. but I whole hardheartedly disagree.
    I've read Anthem and got about a quarter of the way into The Fountainhead and that was enough for me. Maybe I will give Atlas Shrugged a try one day, as I am a member of PB's Sunilista tendency (i.e. I like trains) but probably not until I'm retired and have finally caught up with my tsundoku.

    I am always heartened though that Rand ended up proving that all libertarians are hypocrites by living off the common weal in her old age.

    Iv often herd people call her a hypocrite for accepting Social Security in her old age, maybe I don't see it that way because I lick her, but her defense stands up in my eyes which is roughly: I've been forced to pay in to social security all my life and am now under the rules of the system I can get some of that money back, so i will, if I have had the chose I would not of payed in, and if I support the phasing out of the system, but why should i not get back the money I was forced to pay in?

    After this talk of the Great Lady (or at least notable lady) anybody who is getting curios her is a clip of what is called the money speech which comes about 2/3 of the way though Atlas Shrugged:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-T0ey0IKDA

    Or an abbreviated version of it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u4_RLY0s2s

    I'm trying not to forcing it down anybody throat just making it available.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297
    isam said:

    Who's arguing?

    I don't have the full picture yet. It's too early to get a sense of the general level of agreement or disagreement or complete indifference to my assertion. Which is? Which is that what you do and say matters far more than what you think and feel. It sounds rather trad and old school, doesn't it? Maybe a bit Leavey?
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297
    Endillion said:

    I'm not sure it's as simple as that. For example, consider the "shy racist" who keeps their views to themselves because they've figured out that it's unacceptable in the society they keep, but who would never consider employing a non-white. They're almost impossible to spot on their own, but enough of them across society creates a visible level of inequality.

    In short, are there not things that constitute "interface" with the world, but are effectively invisible?

    I think the binary point - inside versus the outside - works as I said but the outside things can be difficult or even impossible to measure, such as your example. But, in theory, I can answer. If the person would never employ a PoC, i.e. employs whites only, then that is real world racist behaviour - discrimination in the workplace - and therefore they are racist.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,297
    edited February 2020

    Like I say, on balance I'd prefer he lose - and if I lived in the US, I'd be more strongly opposed to him. His platform (in the widest sense) is about 25% spot on and indispensable, 50% stupid and pointless, and 25% dangerous.

    But that first 25% though... it's a pure hit of a political substance that you simply don't get anywhere else.

    You must tell me what that 25% 'spot on' stuff is some time. Is it stuffing the Supreme Court with hardcore misogynists?

    But, OK, there's a lot to like about your 1st para. We can wrap on that.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Who's arguing?

    I don't have the full picture yet. It's too early to get a sense of the general level of agreement or disagreement or complete indifference to my assertion. Which is? Which is that what you do and say matters far more than what you think and feel. It sounds rather trad and old school, doesn't it? Maybe a bit Leavey?
    Yes.
    This is slightly small c conservatism, but just general common sense.

    Personally I think we should vote on what we understand. Unfortunately that means zero votes.
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    NEW THREAD

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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,580
    BigRich said:

    rpjs said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In the primaries, or the general ?
    In a contest against Trump, I wouldn't even hesitate.

    Me neither. And to show that this is not just because my politics are close to people like Sanders and Warren - and hence an easy choice - I would vote for the wackiest of right wing libertarians (assuming they were a decent person) over Trump. Man has to go.
    Ayn Rand or Trump the decision of our time. I think I might swing Trump.
    No question for me. I hate Trump and am a massive fan of Ayn Rand.

    I'd vote for an electable Ayn Rand candidate all day any day.
    Ah, Ayn Rand, the high priestess of selfishness. She posited an ideology that was the exact opposite of Orwell's 1984 but just as evil. The difference was Orwell meant his as a warning, she meant hers as a blueprint.

    I always felt that one of the earliest negative influences of the public internet was that Rand's insidious ideology began to spread from the US to the rest of the world. Growing up and going to university in the 70s and 80s, I'd never heard of her (and neither had anyone I knew), except for occasional name-dropping in the more loonier right-wing haunts of American science fiction (Heinlein, Pournelle).

    That said, I'd sooner vote for her re-animated corpse than Trump.
    We now live in a world where so many people who told the world that they where virtuous and doing things for the grater good have been exposed, Jimmy Saval, lots of Catholic priests, and corrupt politicians.

    And at the same time lots of people Bill Gates, Geff Bozo, Steve Jobes and Eleon Musk. have changes our would for the better while being critasised because 'they are only doing it to make money.

    Reading Atlas Shrugged, change my life,for the better. I've still not met a person who has read her work and still thinks she is evel. but lots of people who miss understand the consent of 'rational self interest'

    I don't think I'm going to change anybodys mind with a blog comment, and you are free to state your opinion. but I whole hardheartedly disagree.
    "There are few ways in which a man can be more innocently employed than in getting money". Sam Johnson. About right.

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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    I’m disappointed at all those criticising the Dems for impeaching Trump. Whether or not it was in their political interests, it was clearly warranted given the evidence. I’m glad they put their constitutional duties ahead of self interest.
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    I owe Mike an apology - thought his bet on Pete for NH was throwing money away. Latest polls show a Pete surge - still likely to be Bernie but the 5/1 he got now looks very tasty
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