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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Peter’s Modest Proposal

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited February 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Peter’s Modest Proposal

I dug out the modest proposal title partially because I wanted to declare this article as being officially semi-satirical, but mostly because it’s advocating a form of cannibalism. Politics is a vicious business at the best of times but there’s always room for a little more ruthlessness. So, this is a thought-experiment in some organised political brutality.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,933
    edited February 2020
    How would that work in government? When would the Conservatives have ditched David Cameron, Theresa May and Boris? Opposition is less important because changes do happen there, even, eventually in Labour.
  • OP begs the question, how useless was Jeremy Corbyn? Or was he a 10 out of 10 leader, if judged not on the obvious criterion of winning power but on winning the argument, given how much of Labour's 2017 programme Boris appears to have nicked, from not reintroducing fox-hunting through to building nearly as many hospitals as China, though not nearly as quickly, via ending austerity?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
  • Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    An interesting idea, although what would stop (post the FTPA) a Conservative PM from calling an election at the time most inconvenient to Labour as they engage in inter-party fighting?

    I guess Mr Eagles was today’s photo editor, that pic always brings a smile. How Corbyn agreed to do it I’ll never know.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    Fans of the American hand-egg will want to watch the fourth quarter of the match, if they couldn’t stay up to watch it live.
  • From OP: Successful American primary candidates ride that momentum into their election campaign, both from the publicity but also the appearance of being ‘a winner’.

    I'm not even sure this bit is true given that usually the incumbent wins; the chap who has not faced a primary beats the winner of the other party's. Momentum is overrated :wink:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    FPT:
    isam said:
    That is a fantastic thread, and sums up the situation well. What I’d add is that the laws governing the game and the lawmakers are pro-defence. The US based Paul Gardner writes a lot about this in World Soccer, and I think it’s especially true of VAR for offsides. There have been a number of goals ruled out for offside where, with the naked eye, I’d have said on side. There has not been a single case of a goal standing where I thought it was offside.

    And Stirling should have been shown a straight red card yesterday for that tackle.
  • tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    isam said:
    That is a fantastic thread, and sums up the situation well. What I’d add is that the laws governing the game and the lawmakers are pro-defence. The US based Paul Gardner writes a lot about this in World Soccer, and I think it’s especially true of VAR for offsides. There have been a number of goals ruled out for offside where, with the naked eye, I’d have said on side. There has not been a single case of a goal standing where I thought it was offside.

    And Stirling should have been shown a straight red card yesterday for that tackle.
    The thing that cricket got right with DRS that football is missing with VAR is the concept of "Umpire's Call".

    VAR was meant to be for "clear and obvious errors" but then they try to get the decision right to the millimetre with no margin of error, its absurd. For a DRS LBW review the decision has to be clear and obvious because it has to be beyond the margin of error. Ball clipping leg stump? Stick with the on-field umpire's decision.

    VAR should introduce a margin of error where the on-field referees decision stands for it, I'd suggest the width of a football. If the offside decision is more than the width of a football off then overturn the decision.

    The other difference between DRS and VAR is that when the ball tracking comes up with DRS the 'traffic light' of the decisions appears instantly with the ball tracking. That's not happening with the offside decisions, instead they're faffing about for ages moving the lines and the frames which makes it seem much less clinical
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
    Good IT design should be used to the user being able to enlarge the font and should make it clear that you've not reached the end of the script.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
    I know - but the user interface is part of IT. If you’re providing a system for canvassers you have to ensure that it is robust. The fact that they were afterwards unable to work out whether any other canvasser had used the screen and made the same error reinforces that.

    And don’t forget this is literally (and rightly) the gold standard pollster.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right? ....
    Nope. :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    The coronavirus news is alarming.
    For example:
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1224001517109145600

    FWIW, I think it reasonably likely that this will become a worldwide epidemic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    I’m hoping we’re slightly better prepared...

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/coronavirus-china-trump-united-states-public-health-emergency-response/
    It’s impossible to watch them without wondering, “What would we do? How would my government respond if this virus spread across my country?”

    For the United States, the answers are especially worrying because the government has intentionally rendered itself incapable. In 2018, the Trump administration fired the government’s entire pandemic response chain of command, including the White House management infrastructure. In numerous phone calls and emails with key agencies across the U.S. government, the only consistent response I encountered was distressed confusion. If the United States still has a clear chain of command for pandemic response, the White House urgently needs to clarify what it is...
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, it wouldn't be surprising if that happened, unfortunately.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Nigelb said:

    The coronavirus news is alarming.
    For example:
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1224001517109145600

    FWIW, I think it reasonably likely that this will become a worldwide epidemic.

    wouldn't it be a pandemic then?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    edited February 2020
    The possible fates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space - if global spread stalls because of the end of the season, we could be looking at next winter being key. Arresting the spread by a few weeks with good public health measures could make a big difference to the outcome.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison
  • FPT
    isam said:

    isam said:

    CatMan said:
    They have, and it’s got nothing to do with the fact that smoking cannabis causes lifelong mental illness and a great percentage of mass killers and terrorists were users.

    The scary thing is that these people weren’t under the influence of it at the time, the damage was done previously
    All the more reason to recognise prohibition has failed and didn't prevent this damage.
    Yes let’s have something that sends young people insane mass produced, sold in shops on the High St and advertised on tv, what a great idea
    Who suggested advertised on TV? Is tobacco advertised on TV?

    It is already mass produced, it is already sold on the High St but without regulations. Prohibition has failed so lets make sure it is regulated like alcohol and try and stamp it out while ensuring its only sold legally like tobacco.
  • Nigelb said:

    The coronavirus news is alarming.
    For example:
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1224001517109145600

    FWIW, I think it reasonably likely that this will become a worldwide epidemic.

    Not that it’s anything to crow about but this is an example of where the British state is far better organised than the USA.

    Our civil servants come in for a lot of criticism. They shouldn’t for this.

    It containment fails in the UK it will be because of mixed performance at local government level, people disobeying the rules or because it’s uncontainable. Not because of HMG.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    I thought this thread header was giving me the cannibalism of political leaders which definitely sounded promising. Put an end to any leadership aspirations of any vegans out there for a start. But it didn't quite deliver.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
    Yep, most of these “IT failures” are actually setup or config errors, but things like this should be continually tested and monitored.

    And the risks of these things should be known about, understood and relayed to the non-IT people involved in the work. Really important work (like this particular survey) should be monitored-to-f*** in real time, with supervisors watching screen recordings and listening to phone recordings. The fact that this clearly didn’t happen is a failure of management.

    Another day when I think to myself “I’m happy that I’m not their IT director”.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited February 2020
    Of course people have to reapply for jobs through restructures etc and no reason that could not also apply to leaders. However there is little real point unless there is a real ideological reason a leader should face a challenge e.g. when Redwood challenged Major or Mayer challenged Thatcher or Thatcher challenged Heath or Benn challenged Kinnock. In the US too most presidents effectively go unchallenged in the primaries with a few exceptions as when McCarthy challenged LBJ or Buchanan challenged Bush Snr
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    edited February 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
    Good IT design should be used to the user being able to enlarge the font and should make it clear that you've not reached the end of the script.
    Yes, it’s a classic case of the end user acting in a way that wasn’t anticipated by the developers. It happens way more often than you think,

    I’m currently trying to persuade a software company to replace the high-end devices used by their QA team with $300 laptops and $100 phones. Because in the real world, that’s what people who aren’t software developers are using. Yes, it makes the software really slow, and low screen resolutions make things render funny - and that’s how the actual customers in the real world see it!!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618

    Nigelb said:

    The coronavirus news is alarming.
    For example:
    https://twitter.com/V2019N/status/1224001517109145600

    FWIW, I think it reasonably likely that this will become a worldwide epidemic.

    Not that it’s anything to crow about but this is an example of where the British state is far better organised than the USA.

    Our civil servants come in for a lot of criticism. They shouldn’t for this.

    It containment fails in the UK it will be because of mixed performance at local government level, people disobeying the rules or because it’s uncontainable. Not because of HMG.
    Yes, UK govt disaster planning is generally very good. A couple of recent examples are the dam that nearly collapsed, and the repatriation of Thomas Cook holidaymakers. Both handled very well indeed, with well-rehearsed plans in place and executed.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
    In situations like this, do vaccines acquire patents and are they developed by private or public organisations? How would costs of acquisition (from the developer) be controlled?
  • But Primary elections only work if there are fixed term parliaments. And Labour trashed that idea in their rush to give Boris his majority.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I read that the virus is more difficult to catch in warmer conditions so it’s hoped that could help to slow its spread as we head into spring and summer .

    I still find it bizarre though just how few cases Europe has had . Given we’re now into the timeframe where the incubation period has passed and you’d expect a big surge in cases.

    That hasn’t happened and I hope it stays that way !
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    edited February 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
    Good IT design should be used to the user being able to enlarge the font and should make it clear that you've not reached the end of the script.
    Yes, it’s a classic case of the end user acting in a way that wasn’t anticipated by the developers. It happens way more often than you think,

    I’m currently trying to persuade a software company to replace the high-end devices used by their QA team with $300 laptops and $100 phones. Because in the real world, that’s what people who aren’t software developers are using. Yes, it makes the software really slow, and low screen resolutions make things render funny - and that’s how the actual customers in the real world see it!!
    Yes, but if everything worked well on low end kit, there'd be no incentive to buy the expensive stuff...

    (Unless you're TSE, of course.)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Interesting idea! The Germans seem to do it - they ponder in each electoral cycle who they're going to put up for Chancellor next time. The time to do it is surely a year before expected elections, so you get a honeymoon bounce. You can't do it just after, or people will worry that they vote for X and end up with Y. The lack of fixed election periods is a snag though.

    Meanwhile, another Iowa poll showing Sanders well clear:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-6731.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    HYUFD said:
    If it is anything like this then Sanders is really going to scoop the pool in delegates, getting far more than his percentage entitles him to.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    alex_ said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
    In situations like this, do vaccines acquire patents and are they developed by private or public organisations? How would costs of acquisition (from the developer) be controlled?
    That's probably not the right question to be asking:
    https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/11/vaccines-drug-makers/
    Every few years an alarming disease launches a furious, out-of-the-blue attack on people, triggering a high-level emergency response. SARS. The H1N1 flu pandemic. West Nile and Zika. The nightmarish West African Ebola epidemic.

    In nearly each case, major vaccine producers have risen to the challenge, setting aside their day-to-day profit-making activities to try to meet a pressing societal need. With each successive crisis, they have done so despite mounting concerns that the threat will dissipate and with it the demand for the vaccine they are racing to develop.

    Now, manufacturers are expressing concern about their ability to afford these costly disruptions to their profit-seeking operations. As a result, when the bat-signal next flares against the night sky, there may not be anyone to respond....


    (But generally, yes - though the rights may be waived.)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    There was a lot of discussion and an unconvincing conspiracy theory about this on yesterday's thread. My own view is that it is all a bit of a mess.
    It’s usually a cock-up rather than a conspiracy - but boy, what a cock-up from the pollster when the client had been trailing it for weeks.
    The most reputable pollster in the US brought low by an absurdly simple IT error.
    It will be interesting to see if we get a post-mortem of this, after all these things are supposed to be conducted with scientific rigour, so everything will have been recorded. Everything *will* have been recorded, right?

    In the meantime, any news story that highlights the need to hire good IT people is fine by me ;)
    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.
    Good IT design should be used to the user being able to enlarge the font and should make it clear that you've not reached the end of the script.
    Yes, it’s a classic case of the end user acting in a way that wasn’t anticipated by the developers. It happens way more often than you think,

    I’m currently trying to persuade a software company to replace the high-end devices used by their QA team with $300 laptops and $100 phones. Because in the real world, that’s what people who aren’t software developers are using. Yes, it makes the software really slow, and low screen resolutions make things render funny - and that’s how the actual customers in the real world see it!!
    Yes, but if everything worked well on low end kit, there'd be no incentive to buy the expensive stuff...

    (Unless you're TSE, of course.)
    Companies often use low end kit simply because of the number of machines required (thinking of a recent UK customer) or because that is all that is available (another customer but Bulgaria).

    In both cases it really didn't have much impact except on screen size as most computers are nowadays fast enough for anything you want to do unless it's multiple things at the same time.
  • The prez a fan of the ballfooting evidently, BIG FAN!

    https://twitter.com/clairecmc/status/1224171718274625536?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
    In situations like this, do vaccines acquire patents and are they developed by private or public organisations? How would costs of acquisition (from the developer) be controlled?
    That's probably not the right question to be asking:
    https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/11/vaccines-drug-makers/
    Every few years an alarming disease launches a furious, out-of-the-blue attack on people, triggering a high-level emergency response. SARS. The H1N1 flu pandemic. West Nile and Zika. The nightmarish West African Ebola epidemic.

    In nearly each case, major vaccine producers have risen to the challenge, setting aside their day-to-day profit-making activities to try to meet a pressing societal need. With each successive crisis, they have done so despite mounting concerns that the threat will dissipate and with it the demand for the vaccine they are racing to develop.

    Now, manufacturers are expressing concern about their ability to afford these costly disruptions to their profit-seeking operations. As a result, when the bat-signal next flares against the night sky, there may not be anyone to respond....


    (But generally, yes - though the rights may be waived.)
    Corporate Social Responsibility for Big Pharma!

    (Only joking, good to see the industry step up for things like this).
  • Sandpit said:


    It was a user-interface issue rather than IT. The caller (user) enlarged the font and did not realise this meant the bottom line disappeared off the screen.

    Yep, most of these “IT failures” are actually setup or config errors, but things like this should be continually tested and monitored.

    And the risks of these things should be known about, understood and relayed to the non-IT people involved in the work. Really important work (like this particular survey) should be monitored-to-f*** in real time, with supervisors watching screen recordings and listening to phone recordings. The fact that this clearly didn’t happen is a failure of management.

    Another day when I think to myself “I’m happy that I’m not their IT director”.
    There might be privacy issues, of course, but the cock-up also suggests there was no rehearsals that would have acted in the way you suggest to catch the issues.

    But I'd still say this is a user-interface issue, rather than IT. I make that distinction because in too many (most?) companies, there are no HCI experts, and QA has probably also been sacrificed because, hey, we don't need them now we have Devops and Agile and A/B testing in the Cloud. (Not that I'm bitter about wasting thousands of pounds on a Masters HCI course.)

    As people have already suggested, a marker for the end of script might have caught the issue, or even a numbered list introduced by, "for these 10 candidates", or better use of horizontal space, or flashing up candidates one at a time, or, well, you get the picture. (We also need to imagine the caller did realise Mayor Pete was missing but assumed that was intended as part of the process to poll transfer votes, or some such.)
  • nico67 said:

    I read that the virus is more difficult to catch in warmer conditions so it’s hoped that could help to slow its spread as we head into spring and summer .

    I still find it bizarre though just how few cases Europe has had . Given we’re now into the timeframe where the incubation period has passed and you’d expect a big surge in cases.

    That hasn’t happened and I hope it stays that way !

    A virus is not a living micro organism. It can survive for up to a week in a droplet on a hard surface like steel but mostly is ineffective within 12 hours without a host. Face masks and good hand hygiene can reduce transmission by 80%. In essence it is hard to build up critical mass for an outbreak when people are alert. I doubt it will become very active outside China. There are multiple drug companies working on a vaccine. The main issue is that by the time they get one out it may not be required in large quantities.

    The UK has run down its vaccine manufacturing capacity because as suggested yesterday manufacturing is a poor way to make money. So I can guarantee the vaccine will not come from the UK. Still we can sell the Chinese more life assurance possibly to help.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    Sandpit said:

    Fans of the American hand-egg will want to watch the fourth quarter of the match, if they couldn’t stay up to watch it live.

    Wasn't at his best but Mahomes is THE generational talent at Quarterback. His 44 yard throw to Hill at around 6 minutes to go was the turning point.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    The prez a fan of the ballfooting evidently, BIG FAN!

    https://twitter.com/clairecmc/status/1224171718274625536?s=20

    Geography, not so much, though.

    I wonder if Pompeo has ever asked him to point out Ukraine on a map ... ?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    HYUFD said:
    As New Hampshire is a primary not a caucuses, and the 15% cut off, would this result mean that only Sanders gets any delegates?.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    edited February 2020

    nico67 said:

    I read that the virus is more difficult to catch in warmer conditions so it’s hoped that could help to slow its spread as we head into spring and summer .

    I still find it bizarre though just how few cases Europe has had . Given we’re now into the timeframe where the incubation period has passed and you’d expect a big surge in cases.

    That hasn’t happened and I hope it stays that way !

    A virus is not a living micro organism. It can survive for up to a week in a droplet on a hard surface like steel but mostly is ineffective within 12 hours without a host. Face masks and good hand hygiene can reduce transmission by 80%. In essence it is hard to build up critical mass for an outbreak when people are alert. I doubt it will become very active outside China. There are multiple drug companies working on a vaccine. The main issue is that by the time they get one out it may not be required in large quantities.

    The UK has run down its vaccine manufacturing capacity because as suggested yesterday manufacturing is a poor way to make money. So I can guarantee the vaccine will not come from the UK. Still we can sell the Chinese more life assurance possibly to help.
    Guarantee ?
    (The common cold is a coronavirus, btw.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fans of the American hand-egg will want to watch the fourth quarter of the match, if they couldn’t stay up to watch it live.

    Wasn't at his best but Mahomes is THE generational talent at Quarterback. His 44 yard throw to Hill at around 6 minutes to go was the turning point.
    Absolutely, and from 3rd & 15. If that pass hadn't completed it was game over.
  • The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
    In situations like this, do vaccines acquire patents and are they developed by private or public organisations? How would costs of acquisition (from the developer) be controlled?
    That's probably not the right question to be asking:
    https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/11/vaccines-drug-makers/
    Every few years an alarming disease launches a furious, out-of-the-blue attack on people, triggering a high-level emergency response. SARS. The H1N1 flu pandemic. West Nile and Zika. The nightmarish West African Ebola epidemic.

    In nearly each case, major vaccine producers have risen to the challenge, setting aside their day-to-day profit-making activities to try to meet a pressing societal need. With each successive crisis, they have done so despite mounting concerns that the threat will dissipate and with it the demand for the vaccine they are racing to develop.

    Now, manufacturers are expressing concern about their ability to afford these costly disruptions to their profit-seeking operations. As a result, when the bat-signal next flares against the night sky, there may not be anyone to respond....


    (But generally, yes - though the rights may be waived.)
    Corporate Social Responsibility for Big Pharma!

    (Only joking, good to see the industry step up for things like this).
    Except this time they might not (or not quickly enough).
    Even if an effective vaccine is developed, scaling up for bulk production is a extremely expensive process, and one they are far less likely than hitherto to do off their own bat.
  • On thread, in practical terms the proposal would mean Corbyn carrying on as Labour leader for 2-3 years until 2022.

    No thanks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    BigRich said:

    HYUFD said:
    As New Hampshire is a primary not a caucuses, and the 15% cut off, would this result mean that only Sanders gets any delegates?.
    The rules suggest as much:
    Pledged delegates are allocated in a proportional manner based on the vote share received by each candidate. This is at both the statewide and congressional district level.

    There is a 15% minimum threshold to receive any delegates. Those not receiving the minimum are excluded, with the delegate pool divided proportionately among those candidates receiving 15% or more...


    Though note that delegates are allocated on the basis of two congressional districts, and also statewide, so there are effective three separate calculations, I think ?
  • The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
    In situations like this, do vaccines acquire patents and are they developed by private or public organisations? How would costs of acquisition (from the developer) be controlled?
    That's probably not the right question to be asking:
    https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/11/vaccines-drug-makers/
    Every few years an alarming disease launches a furious, out-of-the-blue attack on people, triggering a high-level emergency response. SARS. The H1N1 flu pandemic. West Nile and Zika. The nightmarish West African Ebola epidemic.

    In nearly each case, major vaccine producers have risen to the challenge, setting aside their day-to-day profit-making activities to try to meet a pressing societal need. With each successive crisis, they have done so despite mounting concerns that the threat will dissipate and with it the demand for the vaccine they are racing to develop.

    Now, manufacturers are expressing concern about their ability to afford these costly disruptions to their profit-seeking operations. As a result, when the bat-signal next flares against the night sky, there may not be anyone to respond....


    (But generally, yes - though the rights may be waived.)
    Not sure if "furious" is the correct word - a touch anthropomorphic, and sounds a bit too much like a London bicyclist.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
    Also see... Canadian billionaires and Aston Martin.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The possible dates of coronavirus.

    Even if it becomes embedded, seasonality may give us some breathing space.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/1/31/21115109/coronavirus-outbreak-end-sars-comparison

    Also, hopefully, the development of a vaccine.
    Of course, I didn't make that explicit, but a vaccine will need time and seasonality may provide that.
    In situations like this, do vaccines acquire patents and are they developed by private or public organisations? How would costs of acquisition (from the developer) be controlled?
    That's probably not the right question to be asking:
    https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/11/vaccines-drug-makers/
    Every few years an alarming disease launches a furious, out-of-the-blue attack on people, triggering a high-level emergency response. SARS. The H1N1 flu pandemic. West Nile and Zika. The nightmarish West African Ebola epidemic.

    In nearly each case, major vaccine producers have risen to the challenge, setting aside their day-to-day profit-making activities to try to meet a pressing societal need. With each successive crisis, they have done so despite mounting concerns that the threat will dissipate and with it the demand for the vaccine they are racing to develop.

    Now, manufacturers are expressing concern about their ability to afford these costly disruptions to their profit-seeking operations. As a result, when the bat-signal next flares against the night sky, there may not be anyone to respond....


    (But generally, yes - though the rights may be waived.)
    Not sure if "furious" is the correct word - a touch anthropomorphic, and sounds a bit too much like a London bicyclist.
    Talk about burying the lede...
  • On topic: You could call it the Fixed Term Primeminister Act (FTPA)

    What could go wrong?

    :D:D
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Nigelb said:

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
    Also see... Canadian billionaires and Aston Martin.
    Aston Martin are about to launch their SUV, there's a more than decent chance the company will become profitable in the next year or so.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !
  • nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    What do you mean "so called Australia" - do you deny Australia's existance?

    Australia has a higher GDP per capita than the UK does.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
    AM got a private investment, from the same consortium who bought the Force India F1 team last year. Led by Lawrence Stroll, a Canadian who sold his fashion company for a couple of billion and is a total petrolhead. They should be in safe hands for a few years to come.

    Norton sounds like a screwup, governments shouldn't be putting money into (or standing behind loans to) failing companies, without good reason related to the output the company provides.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Nigelb said:

    The prez a fan of the ballfooting evidently, BIG FAN!

    https://twitter.com/clairecmc/status/1224171718274625536?s=20

    Geography, not so much, though.

    I wonder if Pompeo has ever asked him to point out Ukraine on a map ... ?
    The Kansas City metro area is split geographically: most of the core stuff and population is in Missouri but many suburbs are in Kansas. Indeed Kansas City, Kansas is the third largest city in that state. So while there is plenty to criticise Trump for, this is not a particularly bad howler by the admittedly low standards of American politics.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,125

    Prohibition has failed so lets make sure it is regulated like alcohol and try and stamp it out while ensuring its only sold legally like tobacco.

    You can't stamp something out by making it legal.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    What do you mean "so called Australia" - do you deny Australia's existance?

    Australia has a higher GDP per capita than the UK does.
    Australia is 9000 miles away . It’s economy is totally different to that of the UK and it has no trade deal with the EU . The UK agreed to level playing field provisions in the PD and are now ditching that .

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Betting post: Butler now has sufficient CLP nominations to enter the final ballot. It looks like it could be between Butler and Raynor. I don`t think this is reflected yet in the odds.

    So, although I don`t think Butler will win, I`ve been nibbling at the approx 70/1 odds with BF, planning to trade out (or back Raynor) later.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    OT: Priti Patel says she is going to stop "Counter-Terrorists". Dear god, I knew she was thick, but not *that* thick.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    You might like to look at the record of the Welsh Government. There are many such fuck-ups from Welsh Labour. They gave money to Gavin Woodhouse

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50350281

    The Welsh Government had been enthusiastic about the Afan Valley project, with the Economy Minister, Ken Skates, and Huw Irranca-Davies AM appearing in a publicity video with Gavin. Woodhouse was awarded a £500,000 grant for one of his hotels, the Caer Rhun in the Conwy valley.

    They have given 19 million pounds of money and support to ... err ... Aston-Martin, which looks like another Norton Motorbikes story in the making. Aston-Martin is teetering on bankruptcy, and its share price has plummeted from 17 pounds in 2018 to 4.70 now.

    I could go on, but it is too depressing for Wales.

    Basically, if you a crook or a shyster or mobster in England, I would recommend just asking the Welsh Government for money.

    Those who run Wales are -- and this is the most generous interpretation -- too stupid to recognise a crook in plain sight, but they give them public assets, or they throw money at them.

    You need to dress up your crooked scheme as ‘investment’, which allows the Welsh Government to crow about jobs created . . . and this deception encourages Labour to anticipate being re-elected as a reward for these ‘successes’.

    Scoundrels, shysters, Ponzi schemers, crooks, gangsters, mafiosi, criminals ... just write to Mark Drakeford at National Assembly for Wales, Cardiff Bay, Cardiff, CF99 1NA.

    And remember to mention bringing "much needed jobs and investment" in your fraud.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,910
    CatMan said:

    OT: Priti Patel says she is going to stop "Counter-Terrorists". Dear god, I knew she was thick, but not *that* thick.

    She made that mistake repeatedly when I heard her on the radio this morning.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    What do you mean "so called Australia" - do you deny Australia's existance?

    Australia has a higher GDP per capita than the UK does.
    Australia is 9000 miles away . It’s economy is totally different to that of the UK and it has no trade deal with the EU . The UK agreed to level playing field provisions in the PD and are now ditching that .

    It sounds better than "WTO" though, which is why it's being used.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
    Also see... Canadian billionaires and Aston Martin.
    Aston Martin are about to launch their SUV, there's a more than decent chance the company will become profitable in the next year or so.
    Perhaps - but probably not for long.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,557
    The great obstacle to this excellent idea is that the very people who are uselessly in top positions by virtue of the Peter principle are the ones who have the greatest interest in the system not changing and the greatest power to ensure that it doesn't.

  • viewcode said:

    Prohibition has failed so lets make sure it is regulated like alcohol and try and stamp it out while ensuring its only sold legally like tobacco.

    You can't stamp something out by making it legal.
    Maybe he is unaware of the vast amount of illegally imported tobacco

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47004388
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    You might like to look at the record of the Welsh Government. There are many such fuck-ups from Welsh Labour. They gave money to Gavin Woodhouse

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50350281

    The Welsh Government had been enthusiastic about the Afan Valley project, with the Economy Minister, Ken Skates, and Huw Irranca-Davies AM appearing in a publicity video with Gavin. Woodhouse was awarded a £500,000 grant for one of his hotels, the Caer Rhun in the Conwy valley.

    They have given 19 million pounds of money and support to ... err ... Aston-Martin, which looks like another Norton Motorbikes story in the making. Aston-Martin is teetering on bankruptcy, and its share price has plummeted from 17 pounds in 2018 to 4.70 now.

    I could go on, but it is too depressing for Wales.

    Basically, if you a crook or a shyster or mobster in England, I would recommend just asking the Welsh Government for money.

    Those who run Wales are -- and this is the most generous interpretation -- too stupid to recognise a crook in plain sight, but they give them public assets, or they throw money at them.

    You need to dress up your crooked scheme as ‘investment’, which allows the Welsh Government to crow about jobs created . . . and this deception encourages Labour to anticipate being re-elected as a reward for these ‘successes’.

    Scoundrels, shysters, Ponzi schemers, crooks, gangsters, mafiosi, criminals ... just write to Mark Drakeford at National Assembly for Wales, Cardiff Bay, Cardiff, CF99 1NA.

    And remember to mention bringing "much needed jobs and investment" in your fraud.
    Politicians are not great at picking commercial winners. And they ought not to try to do so.
  • CatMan said:

    OT: Priti Patel says she is going to stop "Counter-Terrorists". Dear god, I knew she was thick, but not *that* thick.

    We have a govt of dimwits. I am not sure Labour is any better
  • Mr. CatMan, that's a depressingly bad use of English from a senior politician.

    ....

    I still loathe 'pre-prepared'.

    What other kind of ****ing prepared is there?! Post-prepared, when you prepare for something that's already happened? The prefix is already in the damned word!

    Bloody hell. The worst tautology in the world.

    Mind you, "I could care less" sounds even more stupid. I thought it was a bad translation when I first encountered it in Shadow Hearts: Covenant.
  • viewcode said:

    Prohibition has failed so lets make sure it is regulated like alcohol and try and stamp it out while ensuring its only sold legally like tobacco.

    You can't stamp something out by making it legal.
    Yes you can. You can't stamp it out by making it illegal, prohibition doesn't work.

    The failure of prohibition means the dangers of cannabis aren't taken seriously and much worse it is unregulated and without any quality control. Criminal drug dealers don't check for ID to ensure that young people are old enough to be able to take the product.

    OTOH by being within the auspices of the law for alcohol and tobacco we know the strength of these products and can tax, regulate and educate them. We can also eliminate drug dealers (since there's no mass market for them) and ensure that well regulated suppliers are forced to check for ID etc

    One little known fact is that post-legalisation of cannabis where it has been done the rate of underage smoking of cannabis has gone DOWN and not up.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    No one is saying we won't need to make a legally binding obligation in the trade deal. What the EU are asking for in ongoing commitment to their standards. It's a non-starter. It means the UK government will have to adopt whatever nonsense the EU comes up with or the existing trade deal is suspended or needs to go to arbitration. The idea that they want to bind the UK to their standards for all time isn't tenable.

    The government are right to reject this outright, there shouldn't be any room for misunderstanding here that the UK would ever accept a "self-correcting" amendment to a trade deal that is only amendable by the EU.

    The country has a year of breathing room to get ready for tariffs and customs checks, I expect the government will announce serious funding in the budget to help businesses prepare for it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Sandpit said:

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
    AM got a private investment, from the same consortium who bought the Force India F1 team last year. Led by Lawrence Stroll, a Canadian who sold his fashion company for a couple of billion and is a total petrolhead. They should be in safe hands for a few years to come.

    Norton sounds like a screwup, governments shouldn't be putting money into (or standing behind loans to) failing companies, without good reason related to the output the company provides.
    And is bankrolling the F1 team for which his son drives.
    That can burn through the cash rather quickly, even if you're a billionaire.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    CatMan said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    What do you mean "so called Australia" - do you deny Australia's existance?

    Australia has a higher GDP per capita than the UK does.
    Australia is 9000 miles away . It’s economy is totally different to that of the UK and it has no trade deal with the EU . The UK agreed to level playing field provisions in the PD and are now ditching that .

    It sounds better than "WTO" though, which is why it's being used.
    It’s all so cynical but will probably work .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    The EU are trying to redefine the term level playing field, to mean that we have to sign up blind to whatever is their next social law - maybe a compulsory 35 hour week, a ban on probationary periods or part-time working, or a cap on boardroom pay. We just don't know.

    We won't be signing up to anything that Canada and Japan didn't agree to, and certainly not future alignment with new EU law.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    algarkirk said:

    The great obstacle to this excellent idea is that the very people who are uselessly in top positions by virtue of the Peter principle are the ones who have the greatest interest in the system not changing and the greatest power to ensure that it doesn't.

    Should that now be the Pritti Principle ?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2020
    Nigelb said:



    Politicians are not great at picking commercial winners. And they ought not to try to do so.

    Welsh Labour have been doing it for 20 years & learnt nothing.

    Then, finally Lee Walters AM utters the truth

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48757245

    Lee Walters said "Nobody knows what they're doing on the economy. Everybody is making it up as we go along - and let's just be honest about that. We've thrown all the orthodox tools we can think of at growing the economy in the conventional way, and we've achieved static GDP over 20 years."

    I fear for Lee Walters' future in Welsh Labour with such a clear vision!
  • Sandpit said:

    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    The EU are trying to redefine the term level playing field, to mean that we have to sign up blind to whatever is their next social law - maybe a compulsory 35 hour week, a ban on probationary periods or part-time working, or a cap on boardroom pay. We just don't know.

    We won't be signing up to anything that Canada and Japan didn't agree to, and certainly not future alignment with new EU law.
    Barnier talking about "unfair competitive advantages" - there's no such thing. Its like complaining about Liverpool's current dominance suggesting that because they're doing well is unfair. Competition is healthy.

    Barnier also demanding access to fishing. Why should other areas be tied to fishing? Its just because that's our natural resource they want to strip - do we get access to their natural resources?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Also interesting (at least until he's booted from office) is that Leo Varadker has floated the idea of a joint UK/EU arbitration panel instead of the ECJ (which is another non-starter). If that reflects the commission's thinking the Boris' hardline stance is making a difference.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    CatMan said:

    OT: Priti Patel says she is going to stop "Counter-Terrorists". Dear god, I knew she was thick, but not *that* thick.

    We have a govt of dimwits. I am not sure Labour is any better
    Yep and thanks to 24 hour news and social media - no-one better is ever going to go into Politics. It just isn't worth the stress.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Also interesting (at least until he's booted from office) is that Leo Varadker has floated the idea of a joint UK/EU arbitration panel instead of the ECJ (which is another non-starter). If that reflects the commission's thinking the Boris' hardline stance is making a difference.

    Varadkar wants a deal. Ireland will effectively be on our side in part 2 as if we don't get a deal that will cripple their agricultural and other exports.

    We may pay a price from not having a deal but gain "sovereignty" advantages that make it a price worth paying arguably - they gain nothing, its pure price and no benefits for them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    Nigelb said:



    Politicians are not great at picking commercial winners. And they ought not to try to do so.

    Welsh Labour have been doing it for 20 years & learnt nothing.

    Then, finally Lee Walters AM utters the truth

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48757245

    Lee Walters said "Nobody knows what they're doing on the economy. Everybody is making it up as we go along ...."!
    That's why I'm a pluralist when it comes to economics as well as politics.
    Overlarge concentrations of power are undesirable from a point of view of both liberty and economic efficiency.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,125

    viewcode said:

    Prohibition has failed so lets make sure it is regulated like alcohol and try and stamp it out while ensuring its only sold legally like tobacco.

    You can't stamp something out by making it legal.
    Yes you can. You can't stamp it out by making it illegal, prohibition doesn't work...

    OK. Let's make murder legal.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    MaxPB said:

    Also interesting (at least until he's booted from office) is that Leo Varadker has floated the idea of a joint UK/EU arbitration panel instead of the ECJ (which is another non-starter). If that reflects the commission's thinking the Boris' hardline stance is making a difference.

    Varadkar wants a deal. Ireland will effectively be on our side in part 2 as if we don't get a deal that will cripple their agricultural and other exports.
    Whoever leads the next Irish Govt, it won't be Leo.

    Even if FG are part of the next Govt, it won't be Leo.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,618
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Norton motorbikes story seems to involve a lot of criminality:

    It is a pile-up that includes hundreds of hapless pension holders, together with unsuspecting Norton customers, staff and even government ministers, who repeatedly endorsed Norton as millions of pounds in taxpayer support flowed into the firm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal

    It always seems easier for dubious people to get government money than for those who 'play by the rules':

    Further questions are sure to be asked about how Norton reached this point, and how millions of pounds of taxpayer money was staked on the firm.

    In July 2015, the then chancellor, George Osborne, said his government’s long-term economic plan was “all about backing successful British brands like Norton”, as he visited the firm’s Leicestershire factory to announce a £4m government grant to Norton and 11 of its supply chain partners.

    Four years earlier, the business secretary at the time, Vince Cable, announced a £625,000 government-backed loan by Santander to Norton and said he hoped “that many more companies are inspired by what Norton is going to achieve through this funding”.

    Slap a 'heritage' name on something and there's always some idiot in the UK willing to pump money into it. Let's hope Aston Martin's money troubles are over.

    Did (very) vaguely think about buying a second hand one up here but they seemed to be wanting more than the list price of a new one. I guess that comes under the looking for idiots willing to pump money category.
    AM got a private investment, from the same consortium who bought the Force India F1 team last year. Led by Lawrence Stroll, a Canadian who sold his fashion company for a couple of billion and is a total petrolhead. They should be in safe hands for a few years to come.

    Norton sounds like a screwup, governments shouldn't be putting money into (or standing behind loans to) failing companies, without good reason related to the output the company provides.
    And is bankrolling the F1 team for which his son drives.
    That can burn through the cash rather quickly, even if you're a billionaire.
    Won't be the first people to turn a large fortune into a small one by going motor racing! To be fair to F1, the new commercial agreement from next year is designed to give value to the teams by limiting spending and redistributing prize money.

    I also love the way the Stroll-led consortium went about taking over Force India - they paid almost the amount that the Indians (Vijay Mallya and Subrata Roy) were asking for the team, but in such a way that said Indians didn't see a penny of it!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:



    Politicians are not great at picking commercial winners. And they ought not to try to do so.

    Welsh Labour have been doing it for 20 years & learnt nothing.

    Then, finally Lee Walters AM utters the truth

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48757245

    Lee Walters said "Nobody knows what they're doing on the economy. Everybody is making it up as we go along ...."!
    That's why I'm a pluralist when it comes to economics as well as politics.
    Overlarge concentrations of power are undesirable from a point of view of both liberty and economic efficiency.
    Absolutely.

    Whatever happens in Wales, Labour need to lose power before there is any hope for modest improvement.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    Can these Tories say anything without lying.
    "When it comes to the min wage, maternity leave, environmental protections, our standards are higher"

    "I'm sure the EU will want to adhere to their commitment to a Canada style FTA"

    "We expect to be a leader in environmental standards and workers rights"

    @DominicRaab on #Ridge

    The Truth
    The UK is one of the worst places in Europe for paid parental leave and finding affordable quality childcare, the UN children’s charity has said.

    UNICEF researchers analysed countries according to the length of maternity and paternity leave, as well as the proportion of children between zero and six years old in childcare.

    The only European countries lower than the UK were Cyprus, Switzerland and Greece. Ireland was one place above the UK.

    The top ranked countries were Sweden, Norway and Iceland.
    https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/this-is-how-maternity-and-paternity-leaves-around-europe-compare/
  • Sandpit said:

    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    The EU are trying to redefine the term level playing field, to mean that we have to sign up blind to whatever is their next social law - maybe a compulsory 35 hour week, a ban on probationary periods or part-time working, or a cap on boardroom pay. We just don't know.

    We won't be signing up to anything that Canada and Japan didn't agree to, and certainly not future alignment with new EU law.
    Barnier talking about "unfair competitive advantages" - there's no such thing. Its like complaining about Liverpool's current dominance suggesting that because they're doing well is unfair. Competition is healthy.

    Barnier also demanding access to fishing. Why should other areas be tied to fishing? Its just because that's our natural resource they want to strip - do we get access to their natural resources?
    An unfair competitive advantage means, to use your analogy, that all the sides except Liverpool must conform to a wage cap.

    In this example, it would be where Liverpool left the PFA but was allowed to continue to compete in the Premier League, and then the PFA introduced a wage cap without any requirement on Liverpool to do so.

    You can ask how or when such a situation would arise in the real world, but it definitely exists. It's not a contradiction in terms.
  • Mr. G, the UK (according to Google) allows 52 weeks of maternity leave. The EU minimum is 14 weeks.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    MaxPB said:

    Also interesting (at least until he's booted from office) is that Leo Varadker has floated the idea of a joint UK/EU arbitration panel instead of the ECJ (which is another non-starter). If that reflects the commission's thinking the Boris' hardline stance is making a difference.

    Will never happen or at best will be more EU than UK given 27 countries versus one country ( plus its colonies).
  • Sandpit said:

    nico67 said:

    More guff from Johnson.

    No country signs a trade deal without legally binding provisions . To suggest the EU should agree to something because the UK says it will adhere to certain things without that specifically written into a Treaty is even by this governments standards delusional.

    And the level playing field is also there to protect UK firms . Those provisions will also be there in any deal with the USA .

    Now the Tories are peddling so called Australia as a means to repackage a no deal on trade and dupe the public into thinking it’s all fine !

    The EU are trying to redefine the term level playing field, to mean that we have to sign up blind to whatever is their next social law - maybe a compulsory 35 hour week, a ban on probationary periods or part-time working, or a cap on boardroom pay. We just don't know.

    We won't be signing up to anything that Canada and Japan didn't agree to, and certainly not future alignment with new EU law.
    Barnier talking about "unfair competitive advantages" - there's no such thing. Its like complaining about Liverpool's current dominance suggesting that because they're doing well is unfair. Competition is healthy.

    Barnier also demanding access to fishing. Why should other areas be tied to fishing? Its just because that's our natural resource they want to strip - do we get access to their natural resources?
    An unfair competitive advantage means, to use your analogy, that all the sides except Liverpool must conform to a wage cap.

    In this example, it would be where Liverpool left the PFA but was allowed to continue to compete in the Premier League, and then the PFA introduced a wage cap without any requirement on Liverpool to do so.

    You can ask how or when such a situation would arise in the real world, but it definitely exists. It's not a contradiction in terms.
    Of course its a contradiction in terms. We need to treat each other as equal partners, we are not subservient to them and that is the problem, they perceive us as subservient. If they choose to introduce a wage cap then that is their unilateral choice it is not in the rules of the game - we aren't in their organsation so its not on us to do that.

    To correct your analogy it would be like Manchester City, Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea unilaterally deciding they want a wage cap and expect to enforce that on Liverpool but Liverpool decides not to do so.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    What’s the problem with the UK adhering to minimum standards which are lower in the EU .

    That should be pretty easy ! if you’re standards are much higher already it’s unlikely you’re going to get that much lower unless of course the government are lying !

    The UK will be a competitor out of the EU and because of geography that’s why level playing field provisions are even more important than say in the Canada deal which still has some of those .


This discussion has been closed.