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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Warren and Klobuchar get key newspaper endorsements Iowa and N

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited January 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Warren and Klobuchar get key newspaper endorsements Iowa and New Hampshire

The weekend has seen the leading papers in first two states to decide give their backing to Senators Warren and Klobuchar. In Iowa its the Des Moines Register that is going for Warren while in New Hampshire the Union Leader goes for Sen. Amy Klobuchar.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    First like Hillary in 2016 (votes!)
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Oddly, the New York Times endorsed both of them.

    Amy Klobuchar is still a distant long shot on Betfair.
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Warren now 15s for the nomination...
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Good morning everyone. It almost seems sometimes as if it's "Anyone but Trump" in November.
    Yes of course I hope it's "Someone who isn't Trump' when the counting's done!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited January 2020

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Why would this surprise anyone ?

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/480027-bolton-lawyer-slams-corrupted-white-house-review-process-after-book
    A lawyer for former national security adviser John Bolton accused White House officials of leaking details of Bolton's forthcoming book following a report that the manuscript contained the allegation that President Trump directly tied security aid for Ukraine to the country investigating his political rivals.

    Attorney Charles Cooper said in a statement to The Associated Press and other news outlets that he submitted Bolton's manuscript to the National Security Council's Records Management Division to review its contents for classified information on Dec. 30, a standard practice for former government officials writing books.

    Cooper said he was given assurances at the time that the manuscript would not be seen by those outside staffers involved in the review process.

    “It is clear, regrettably, from The New York Times article published today that the prepublication review process has been corrupted and that information has been disclosed by persons other than those involved in reviewing the manuscript," Cooper said in a statement....


    Republican Senators will, in all likelihood, decide that it would be completely wrong to call Bolton as a witness...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    I just wonder if the Senators in the field are regretting the somewhat pointless impeachment hearings that are dragging them back to Washington today. Of the main contenders Biden will be the only one on the ground most of this week. Must improve his chances somewhat.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    I think what Mr(?) R means is that 'everyone in the US fears it'. Which isn't true, either. Sadly.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    DavidL said:

    I just wonder if the Senators in the field are regretting the somewhat pointless impeachment hearings that are dragging them back to Washington today. Of the main contenders Biden will be the only one on the ground most of this week. Must improve his chances somewhat.

    There's a few, Manchin; Romney; Murkowski types that could go either way. But the result is a forgone conclusion
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,614
    So Varadkar thinks the UK’s population is “about 60 million” - only 7 million out (nearly twice Ireland’s) and that “UK politicians don’t understand Irish ones.....”
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    I just wonder if the Senators in the field are regretting the somewhat pointless impeachment hearings that are dragging them back to Washington today. Of the main contenders Biden will be the only one on the ground most of this week. Must improve his chances somewhat.

    There's a few, Manchin; Romney; Murkowski types that could go either way. But the result is a forgone conclusion
    It is and it seems more about senatorial races than actually attacking the President. But having to be a mute juror at this time must be incredibly frustrating.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Hi has anyone mentioned the
    KLOBUCHAR SURGE

    https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1221613796487098369
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Klobuchar behind YANG in the polling now
  • Options

    So Varadkar thinks the UK’s population is “about 60 million” - only 7 million out (nearly twice Ireland’s) and that “UK politicians don’t understand Irish ones.....”

    Varadkar has an election to fight and whatever the result his unique charm this last couple of years has alienated everyone around him. Now he might pull something out of nowhere but at the moment it looks like a Fianna Foil led government. Crikey if I were an Irish citizen for the first time in my lifetime I would not vote Fine Gael.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    So Varadkar thinks the UK’s population is “about 60 million” - only 7 million out (nearly twice Ireland’s) and that “UK politicians don’t understand Irish ones.....”

    Alright snowflake, it’s only a population. Who cares?
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Pulpstar said:

    Klobuchar behind YANG in the polling now

    In the national polling, yes. But the nation doesn't get any delegates.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    Hi has anyone mentioned the
    KLOBUCHAR SURGE

    https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1221613796487098369

    I suspect that all this is likely to do is ensure that no one challenges Biden as the ‘moderates choice’. Certainly it dents Buttigieg’s chances.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    The other problem with the impeachment process is that it still risks undermining Biden. What was Hunter Biden doing in the Ukraine? Why was he appointed as a very well paid director of a company in an industry where he had little knowledge? Why was this not corruption?

    The Republicans are apparently offering a trade off by which Bolton can give evidence if Biden senior and junior do too. I don't think the Democratic establishment will want that. Sanders might though.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    DavidL said:

    The other problem with the impeachment process is that it still risks undermining Biden. What was Hunter Biden doing in the Ukraine? Why was he appointed as a very well paid director of a company in an industry where he had little knowledge? Why was this not corruption?

    The Republicans are apparently offering a trade off by which Bolton can give evidence if Biden senior and junior do too. I don't think the Democratic establishment will want that. Sanders might though.

    The US political system is a complete shower. Jeez.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose. However, they seem keen to elect either a pensioner who is clearly not as sharp as he was, or a pensioner who is so far left, he isn't even a member of the Democratic Party.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    TGOHF666 said:

    Warren now 15s for the nomination...

    I sold her at almost evens. What an extraordinary drop.

    I'm green on everyone except Yang, Clinton and Bloomberg.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    DavidL said:

    The other problem with the impeachment process is that it still risks undermining Biden. What was Hunter Biden doing in the Ukraine? Why was he appointed as a very well paid director of a company in an industry where he had little knowledge? Why was this not corruption?

    The Republicans are apparently offering a trade off by which Bolton can give evidence if Biden senior and junior do too. I don't think the Democratic establishment will want that. Sanders might though.

    The US political system is a complete shower. Jeez.
    It absolutely is. It makes our politics look almost innocent.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    Story relevant to Alastair Meek's recent articles here on towns. Not clear what government can and should do, beyond funding more education, which would mean channeling more resources through (in this case Labour) local authorities.

    Also hints that people are already noticing that the "levelling up" rhetoric is proving empty.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1221690391977758720

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    edited January 2020

    Hi has anyone mentioned the
    KLOBUCHAR SURGE

    https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1221613796487098369

    That was one of three polls released yesterday, alongside YouGov and Suffolk. YouGov's fieldwork was much earlier, so lets leave that aside for the moment, and compare the candidates vote shares in the two polls:

    Sanders - 30% and 19%
    Biden - 25% and 21%
    Klobuchar - 13% and 6%
    Warren - 11% and 13%
    Buittigieg - 10% and 18%

    There are some pretty wide spreads there. In one Sanders is a single percentage point ahead of Buttigieg. In another, he's twenty points clear.

    In one Klobuchar is within spitting distance of becoming the moderate's choice. In another, she'll be lucky if she gets a single delegate.

    This appears to be shaping up to being a two horse race between Biden and Sanders, but with two caveats:

    1. Biden doesn't have a great ground operation in Iowa. This means there is the risk that his supporters get "pinched" by other candidates at caucuses.

    2. Biden's supporters are less likely to be politically motivated, and therefore less likely to turn up.

    This makes Sanders the favourite for Iowa. But he's still probably no more than a 40% chance. Second and third choices matter here, and the "left" track of the Democratic nomination is still polling (at most) at 40%.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: just seen there's a Ladbrokes market on a winner without the big six (drivers). Sainz at 3.5 and Norris at 4 look the most tempting. McLaren ended up significantly ahead of the rest of the midfield by the end of last season, although it's always possible for a lot of churn from one year to the next.

    Probably not going to bet, but worth thinking about.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
    Yes, but “win lose” ?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
    Yes, but “win lose” ?
    ah yes...

    In my defence, I typed that at 38,000 feet crossing the Atlantic, after very few hours of sleep.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    edited January 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
    Yes, but “win lose” ?
    ah yes...

    In my defence, I typed that at 38,000 feet crossing the Atlantic, after very few hours of sleep.
    In an aeroplane, I hope ?

    (Also, I would not underestimate the capacity of Bolton to deal significant damage to Trump. For example:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/01/26/dick-cheneys-apprentice-strikes/ )
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
    Yes, but “win lose” ?
    ah yes...

    In my defence, I typed that at 38,000 feet crossing the Atlantic, after very few hours of sleep.
    In an aeroplane, I hope ?

    (Also, I would not underestimate the capacity of Bolton to deal significant damage to Trump. For example:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/01/26/dick-cheneys-apprentice-strikes/ )
    Yep. Still on (or in) the plane.

    And I'm not feeling the love for Microsoft right now - my mouse cursor has disappeared :angry:
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Warren now 15s for the nomination...

    I sold her at almost evens. What an extraordinary drop.

    I'm green on everyone except Yang, Clinton and Bloomberg.
    I'm green on everyone. Klobuchar is my biggest winner
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose. However, they seem keen to elect either a pensioner who is clearly not as sharp as he was, or a pensioner who is so far left, he isn't even a member of the Democratic Party.
    The last candidate to beat an incumbent president after only one term of his party in the White House was a right wing pensioner, 69 year old Ronald Reagan when he beat Carter in 1980
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    Hi has anyone mentioned the
    KLOBUCHAR SURGE

    https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1221613796487098369

    Klobuchar now 3rd in Iowa there as Buttigieg and Warren collapse further
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    So Varadkar thinks the UK’s population is “about 60 million” - only 7 million out (nearly twice Ireland’s) and that “UK politicians don’t understand Irish ones.....”

    Varadkar has an election to fight and whatever the result his unique charm this last couple of years has alienated everyone around him. Now he might pull something out of nowhere but at the moment it looks like a Fianna Foil led government. Crikey if I were an Irish citizen for the first time in my lifetime I would not vote Fine Gael.
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1221550310981873665?s=20
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    Because ... ?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
    He'd take that (although his ego might not!).
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.

    He'd take that (although his ego might not!).
    I think it's a good betting resource. It shows that Trump's hold on the traditional bellweathers of Florida and Ohio is strong, but that he's failed to hold on to his support in the rust belt.

    This shouldn't be that surprising: the rust belt continues to economically struggle, and Trump's trade war hasn't helped.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Biden drawing poor crowds in Iowa - even smaller than his last run at WH2008
    https://newrepublic.com/article/156317/joe-bidens-confounding-candidacy
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
    Maine is Trump -6
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Hi has anyone mentioned the
    KLOBUCHAR SURGE

    https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1221613796487098369

    Klobuchar now 3rd in Iowa there as Buttigieg and Warren collapse further
    Klobuchar third but on 13 per cent which is below the 15 per cent threshold. Now, support is probably not uniform but even so, in precincts where she and any candidates (including Biden in all probability) fail to reach the 15 per cent threshold, all their supporters are up for grabs, so it all looks far too complicated for this punter of very little brain. Can Amy get more transfers in than out? And the same for any candidates in all the precincts.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    HYUFD said:
    Trump's denial pretty well confirms it, then.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
    I forgot Pennsylvania. He'd lose Pennsylvania. Which would result in (according to 270towin) an EC result of the Dems getting 271, and the Republicans 269.

    Which would certainly lead to a very exciting election night!
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    A Biden bounce in Iowa, though the usual small sample:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-6731.html

    No sign of a Warren improvement yet.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    edited January 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
    I forgot Pennsylvania. He'd lose Pennsylvania. Which would result in (according to 270towin) an EC result of the Dems getting 271, and the Republicans 269.

    Which would certainly lead to a very exciting election night!
    That would be epic.

    Which would be the last decisive state to declare on the night ?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
    Maine is Trump -6
    Worth remembering that Maine is not a "winner takes all" state. It's possible it could go from one Republican, three Democrat to three Republican, one Democrat, but it's not that likely.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    So, NY, DC and CA newspapers and commentators love Warren and Klobuchar, but in real world Iowa the race is between Sanders and Biden?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Biden drawing poor crowds in Iowa - even smaller than his last run at WH2008
    https://newrepublic.com/article/156317/joe-bidens-confounding-candidacy

    The question is whether a moderate consolidates the Biden/Buttigieg/Klobuchar/Steyer vote on the night. If so, Sanders loses. If not, then he wins.

    At least Amy has timed her surge right!
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
    Yes, but “win lose” ?
    ah yes...

    In my defence, I typed that at 38,000 feet crossing the Atlantic, after very few hours of sleep.
    In an aeroplane, I hope ?

    (Also, I would not underestimate the capacity of Bolton to deal significant damage to Trump. For example:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/01/26/dick-cheneys-apprentice-strikes/ )
    Yep. Still on (or in) the plane.

    And I'm not feeling the love for Microsoft right now - my mouse cursor has disappeared :angry:
    Get a Mac ;)
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331

    DavidL said:

    The other problem with the impeachment process is that it still risks undermining Biden. What was Hunter Biden doing in the Ukraine? Why was he appointed as a very well paid director of a company in an industry where he had little knowledge? Why was this not corruption?

    The Republicans are apparently offering a trade off by which Bolton can give evidence if Biden senior and junior do too. I don't think the Democratic establishment will want that. Sanders might though.

    The US political system is a complete shower. Jeez.
    To be fair, none of us are responsible for what our relatives do, unless we're on the record as encouraging them.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Hilarious. This is the guy who proposed telling those who voted in the biggest democratic vote in our history to vote again as they got it wrong first time. Now he's posing as a champion of accountability and democracy.

    But I doubt he has either the self-awareness or humour to see the glaring contradiction.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited January 2020

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    Also this one. I guess these set the parameters for the Dec 2020 agreement. It will be this or less than this and will be in the No Deal to Minimal Deal range.

    https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1216777124104851456
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    The chances of no deal at this stage are far higher than are generally recognised, precisely because neither side seems to understand the constraints that the other is operating under and Britain professes to be determined to do the whole thing to a timetable that is logistically demanding and vulnerable to being derailed more or less by accident.

    The Wallonians are currently holding up the agreement with Mercosur. This is not just a theoretical risk.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us? The question haunts us in the Arab and Muslim world. We repeat it like a mantra. You will hear it from Iran to Syria, from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, and in my own country, Lebanon. For us, the past is a different country, one not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings. It is a more vibrant place, without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless, amorphous wars.
    Though the past had coups and wars too, they were contained in time and space, and the future still held much promise. What happened to us? The question may not occur to those too young to remember a different world, whose parents did not tell them of a youth spent reciting poetry in Peshawar, debating Marxism in the bars of Beirut, or riding bicycles on the banks of the Tigris in Baghdad. The question may surprise those in the West who assume that the extremism and bloodletting of today have always been the norm...

    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    A Biden bounce in Iowa, though the usual small sample:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-6731.html

    No sign of a Warren improvement yet.

    It's interesting: Warren plus Sanders has been a pretty consistent 40% in Iowa.

    I suspect that Sanders can count on pretty much all the Gabbard vote coming across to him (although whether that's 1% or 5% is the question). But how much of the remaining Warren vote goes to Sanders? My guess is that a lot of the remaining Warren voters could be tempted by another woman...

    Now, I know it's my book talking, but I could see Klobuchar win Iowa. She's got a good organisation. She's local, and her volunteers can drive into state to help out.

    And if she wins Iowa, or even if she simply beats out Biden and Buttigieg, then she's catapulted into the top tier. Her odds on the nomination remain very generous. Buy her.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Root appears to have worked out the need not to overbowl Wood.
    Shame he didn't do the same for Archer.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202
    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    No deal will harm the UK far more than the EU. Perhaps Boris could add it to the other 2 crap decisions he seems intent on making (HS2 and Huawei) and make it a holy trinity.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    edited January 2020
    Sandpit said:

    So, NY, DC and CA newspapers and commentators love Warren and Klobuchar, but in real world Iowa the race is between Sanders and Biden?

    The 538 average for Iowa has Sanders and Biden tied on 22% in Iowa. Those are extraordinarily low numbers for a winner.

    The first place position this time is getting fewer than half the percentage the second place got in 2016.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    ..
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us? The question haunts us in the Arab and Muslim world. We repeat it like a mantra. You will hear it from Iran to Syria, from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, and in my own country, Lebanon. For us, the past is a different country, one not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings. It is a more vibrant place, without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless, amorphous wars.
    Though the past had coups and wars too, they were contained in time and space, and the future still held much promise. What happened to us? The question may not occur to those too young to remember a different world, whose parents did not tell them of a youth spent reciting poetry in Peshawar, debating Marxism in the bars of Beirut, or riding bicycles on the banks of the Tigris in Baghdad. The question may surprise those in the West who assume that the extremism and bloodletting of today have always been the norm...

    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I’ve read other reviews of this book and it is on my reading list too, one which gets longer with every passing day. :(
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited January 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    That second paragraph is palpable nonsense. In fact the first is too.
    It isn't.

    Trump is an absolute racing certainty. He will increase his EC share.

    It's all over before it has begun.
    I could easily see him increasing his vote share, but increasing his EC share will be a real struggle for him given how many close races he won by the smallest of margins.

    Virginia, which has been booming, is pretty much the only state I could see flipping from Democrat to Republican. What else could go?
    Nevada which voted for Bush W in 2004 but Hillary in 2016, maybe at a push Colorado and New Mexico too which also voted for Bush in 2004 but Hillary in 2016 and New Hampshire which voted for Bush in 2000 but also for Hillary.

    Minnesota was also a narrow Hillary win but has voted Democrat at every presidential election since 1972
    I find the state-by-state approval numbers from Morning Consult to be a good guide: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    Nevada is -12 for Trump, Colorado is -18!
    New Mexico and Minnesota are -10
    Virginia is -5

    If we take -5 to be "par", and he wins all states he -5 or better in, then he'd flip Virginia, hold Florida and Ohio easily, but lose Wisconsin, Iowa and Michigan.

    Which would be enough to take the Presidency, but by a slightly diminished EC margin.
    I forgot Pennsylvania. He'd lose Pennsylvania. Which would result in (according to 270towin) an EC result of the Dems getting 271, and the Republicans 269.

    Which would certainly lead to a very exciting election night!
    If Trump won 3 Maine delegates he could lose Pennsylvania and be re elected, though he is only -6% in Pennsylvania, same as Maine
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    The chances of no deal at this stage are far higher than are generally recognised, precisely because neither side seems to understand the constraints that the other is operating under and Britain professes to be determined to do the whole thing to a timetable that is logistically demanding and vulnerable to being derailed more or less by accident.

    The Wallonians are currently holding up the agreement with Mercosur. This is not just a theoretical risk.
    We have a deal now the Withdrawal Agreement has passed, the only question now is whether we get a basic trade deal that minimises tariffs or a full Canada plus deal including services, the former most likely.

    Wallonia caved in to back CETA in the end
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, NY, DC and CA newspapers and commentators love Warren and Klobuchar, but in real world Iowa the race is between Sanders and Biden?

    The 538 average for Iowa has Sanders and Biden tied on 22% in Iowa. Those are extraordinarily low numbers for a winner.

    The first place position this time is getting fewer than half the percentage the second place got in 2016.
    Had a very small nibble on the Klob at 60 for Iowa.
    If nothing else, it's a good hedge.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,734
    edited January 2020

    So Varadkar thinks the UK’s population is “about 60 million” - only 7 million out (nearly twice Ireland’s) and that “UK politicians don’t understand Irish ones.....”

    "About 60 million" is actually correct, albeit -ish. Latest[1] ONS estimate is 66,435,600.

    He is also correct about UK politicians not understanding Irish ones nor Ireland generally. It's been one of my biggest complaints since I've been on PB, to the point of tedium.

    [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/timeseries/ukpop/pop
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    I don't know about the employment regs, but the idea that the next set of EU environmental regulations will "be designed specifically to harm the UK" is just a touch paranoid.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think I understand from a betting perspective why this matters although opportunities seem very limited from this side of the pond.

    However, from the vantage of spectator sport this election is dull. Trump will win a second term. Pretty-much everyone in the US knows it.

    Trump is more likely to win a second term than not. But he is far from certain. Remember:

    1. His unfavourable numbers are off the charts
    2. He won by only the narrowest of margins in 2016
    3. Florida is allowing ex-Felons to vote, which adds a large number of Black voters to the electoral roll
    4. The US economic growth of the last four years has largely left the rustbelt behind, indeed, the evidence is that a number of states he won there are back in recession

    If the Democrats chose a charismatic centrist of non-pensionable age, I have little doubt that he would win lose....
    A bold prediction indeed. :smile:
    The "he" in that sentence was Trump, not the Democratic nominee!
    Yes, but “win lose” ?
    ah yes...

    In my defence, I typed that at 38,000 feet crossing the Atlantic, after very few hours of sleep.
    In an aeroplane, I hope ?

    (Also, I would not underestimate the capacity of Bolton to deal significant damage to Trump. For example:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/01/26/dick-cheneys-apprentice-strikes/ )
    Yep. Still on (or in) the plane.

    And I'm not feeling the love for Microsoft right now - my mouse cursor has disappeared :angry:
    Get a Mac ;)
    I also have a Mac. I just occasionally like to play a game or two, and that's when the Mac doesn't work for me.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    The chances of no deal at this stage are far higher than are generally recognised, precisely because neither side seems to understand the constraints that the other is operating under and Britain professes to be determined to do the whole thing to a timetable that is logistically demanding and vulnerable to being derailed more or less by accident.

    The Wallonians are currently holding up the agreement with Mercosur. This is not just a theoretical risk.
    We have a deal now the Withdrawal Agreement has passed, the only question now is whether we get a basic trade deal that minimises tariffs or a full Canada plus deal including services, the former most likely.

    Wallonia caved in to back CETA in the end
    In the end. Will they do it to a rapid timetable? Will everyone else?

    Everyone assumes that it will be alright on the night. But it might well not be.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us? The question haunts us in the Arab and Muslim world. We repeat it like a mantra. You will hear it from Iran to Syria, from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, and in my own country, Lebanon. For us, the past is a different country, one not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings. It is a more vibrant place, without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless, amorphous wars.
    Though the past had coups and wars too, they were contained in time and space, and the future still held much promise. What happened to us? The question may not occur to those too young to remember a different world, whose parents did not tell them of a youth spent reciting poetry in Peshawar, debating Marxism in the bars of Beirut, or riding bicycles on the banks of the Tigris in Baghdad. The question may surprise those in the West who assume that the extremism and bloodletting of today have always been the norm...

    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I’ve read other reviews of this book and it is on my reading list too, one which gets longer with every passing day. :(
    One of the few advantages of having a house fire before Christmas was a dramatic reduction in the size of my to be read pile...
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    The chances of no deal at this stage are far higher than are generally recognised, precisely because neither side seems to understand the constraints that the other is operating under and Britain professes to be determined to do the whole thing to a timetable that is logistically demanding and vulnerable to being derailed more or less by accident.

    The Wallonians are currently holding up the agreement with Mercosur. This is not just a theoretical risk.
    Agree completely, there’s a lot of stages and refusal points to any agreement, many of which seem immune to political pressure applied from above (such as Wallonia).

    I can see the final EU-UK agreement being very basic in Dec 2020, followed by a more comprehensive agreement next year - with tariffs applied in the meantime.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:
    Hilarious. This is the guy who proposed telling those who voted in the biggest democratic vote in our history to vote again as they got it wrong first time. Now he's posing as a champion of accountability and democracy.

    But I doubt he has either the self-awareness or humour to see the glaring contradiction.
    The contradiction of asking (the same) people to vote about an issue they voted on several years ago? Exactly what part of that constitutes a contradiction?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2020
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us? The question haunts us in the Arab and Muslim world. We repeat it like a mantra. You will hear it from Iran to Syria, from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, and in my own country, Lebanon. For us, the past is a different country, one not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings. It is a more vibrant place, without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless, amorphous wars.
    Though the past had coups and wars too, they were contained in time and space, and the future still held much promise. What happened to us? The question may not occur to those too young to remember a different world, whose parents did not tell them of a youth spent reciting poetry in Peshawar, debating Marxism in the bars of Beirut, or riding bicycles on the banks of the Tigris in Baghdad. The question may surprise those in the West who assume that the extremism and bloodletting of today have always been the norm...

    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I've not read the book just the snippet you've quoted but I'd trace the roots of the problem to before 1979 which I think was itself a symptom rather than a cause, the problem began earlier in the 70s and in one word was: Oil.

    Oil and OPEC's actions in the 70s cause the Middle East to be awash with oil money that led to and funded the radical issues of 1979 onwards. By having so much money associated with a single export that the state could control it led to corruption and opportunities for it.

    For me I am very keen on seeing us end our use of oil and always have been but not just for "environmental" reasons but also to end our relationship with the Middle East and the financing of petrochemical countries.

    Once we leave oil in the ground and consider it worthless because we've moved on to alternative technologies, then the Middle East may face a reckoning of reality once more.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us? The question haunts us in the Arab and Muslim world. We repeat it like a mantra. You will hear it from Iran to Syria, from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, and in my own country, Lebanon. For us, the past is a different country, one not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings. It is a more vibrant place, without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless, amorphous wars.
    Though the past had coups and wars too, they were contained in time and space, and the future still held much promise. What happened to us? The question may not occur to those too young to remember a different world, whose parents did not tell them of a youth spent reciting poetry in Peshawar, debating Marxism in the bars of Beirut, or riding bicycles on the banks of the Tigris in Baghdad. The question may surprise those in the West who assume that the extremism and bloodletting of today have always been the norm...

    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I’ve read other reviews of this book and it is on my reading list too, one which gets longer with every passing day. :(
    One of the few advantages of having a house fire before Christmas was a dramatic reduction in the size of my to be read pile...
    An unnecessarily drastic solution. I hope your house - and indeed you - have recovered from what sounds like a ghastly experience.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    The big issues will be state aid and taxation (tax breaks and avoidance schemes are the key items, not rates) IMO. I think as long as the UK is there or thereabouts on the environment and workers rights, it will be OK. We'll see.
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    The big issues will be state aid and taxation (tax breaks and avoidance schemes are the key items, not rates) IMO. I think as long as the UK is there or thereabouts on the environment and workers rights, it will be OK. We'll see.
    Maybe if Corbyn was negotiating would state aid be the issue.

    Fishing and environmental/workers rights etc will be a bigger issue for the Tories. There's no way we can agree to remain aligned with whatever workers rights the EU comes up with into the future without a say, that's absurd.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202
    Another benefit: Britain will be excluded from the Schengen Information sharing system which the British police use.

    Perhaps we can ask the Chinese to hack into it for us.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    I don't know about the employment regs, but the idea that the next set of EU environmental regulations will "be designed specifically to harm the UK" is just a touch paranoid.

    More like absolute BOLLOX
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    This looks like an exceptionally important thread for anyone trying to understand the EU's negotiating position in the next stage of Brexit:

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1221703152988229633

    There’s no way we are going to sign up to whatever white piece of paper the next EU environmental or employment legislation happens to be, given that it will be designed specifically to harm the UK. Any trade deal needs to be based on equivalence not alignment (as are the EU trade deals with Japan and Canada).

    Nothing substantial is going to happen until the June deadline, when our refusal to agree an extension to the standstill makes the EU side understand that the result of failure of the talks will be no deal at all.
    No deal will harm the UK far more than the EU. Perhaps Boris could add it to the other 2 crap decisions he seems intent on making (HS2 and Huawei) and make it a holy trinity.
    No deal will, but agreeing to be a vassal into the future will harm us more.

    If the EU can treat us as equal partners with mutual recognition then great. If they don't want to, so be it.
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Another benefit: Britain will be excluded from the Schengen Information sharing system which the British police use.

    Perhaps we can ask the Chinese to hack into it for us.
    Presumably if the EU excludes us from information sharing, we won't share information with them either. Including intelligence.

    Or perhaps they want our information, in which case they'll treat us as equals and share it so long as we share ours? Both parties need to act like equal partners on the world stage and grown ups.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871
    viewcode said:

    So Varadkar thinks the UK’s population is “about 60 million” - only 7 million out (nearly twice Ireland’s) and that “UK politicians don’t understand Irish ones.....”

    "About 60 million" is actually correct, albeit -ish. Latest[1] ONS estimate is 66,435,600.

    He is also correct about UK politicians not understanding Irish ones nor Ireland generally. It's been one of my biggest complaints since I've been on PB, to the point of tedium.

    [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/timeseries/ukpop/pop
    Truth is irrelevant to Carlotta , she works on bias and who she hates only , Ireland is second only to Scotland on her list and she will spout any old rubbish to denigrate them. She is a real Scottish Unionist.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us?
    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I've not read the book just the snippet you've quoted but I'd trace the roots of the problem to before 1979 which I think was itself a symptom rather than a cause, the problem began earlier in the 70s and in one word was: Oil.

    Oil and OPEC's actions in the 70s cause the Middle East to be awash with oil money that led to and funded the radical issues of 1979 onwards. By having so much money associated with a single export that the state could control it led to corruption and opportunities for it.

    For me I am very keen on seeing us end our use of oil and always have been but not just for "environmental" reasons but also to end our relationship with the Middle East and the financing of petrochemical countries.

    Once we leave oil in the ground and consider it worthless because we've moved on to alternative technologies, then the Middle East may face a reckoning of reality once more.
    The Sunni-Shia rivalry long predated the discovery - let alone use - of oil and will long outlast it. It is central to what sort of Islam becomes dominant in different Muslim countries. That issue is not going to disappear and, even if the West becomes wholly independent of the Middle East for energy, given the size of Muslim communities in the West we still be affected by the continuation and outcome of that rivalry.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us? The question haunts us in the Arab and Muslim world. We repeat it like a mantra. You will hear it from Iran to Syria, from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, and in my own country, Lebanon. For us, the past is a different country, one not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings. It is a more vibrant place, without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless, amorphous wars.
    Though the past had coups and wars too, they were contained in time and space, and the future still held much promise. What happened to us? The question may not occur to those too young to remember a different world, whose parents did not tell them of a youth spent reciting poetry in Peshawar, debating Marxism in the bars of Beirut, or riding bicycles on the banks of the Tigris in Baghdad. The question may surprise those in the West who assume that the extremism and bloodletting of today have always been the norm...

    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I’ve read other reviews of this book and it is on my reading list too, one which gets longer with every passing day. :(
    One of the few advantages of having a house fire before Christmas was a dramatic reduction in the size of my to be read pile...
    An unnecessarily drastic solution. I hope your house - and indeed you - have recovered from what sounds like a ghastly experience.
    Unplanned, I assure you. :smile:
    I'm fine, thanks; the full reinstatement will take a little while.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    I've not read the book just the snippet you've quoted but I'd trace the roots of the problem to before 1979 which I think was itself a symptom rather than a cause, the problem began earlier in the 70s and in one word was: Oil.

    Oil and OPEC's actions in the 70s cause the Middle East to be awash with oil money that led to and funded the radical issues of 1979 onwards. By having so much money associated with a single export that the state could control it led to corruption and opportunities for it.

    For me I am very keen on seeing us end our use of oil and always have been but not just for "environmental" reasons but also to end our relationship with the Middle East and the financing of petrochemical countries.

    Once we leave oil in the ground and consider it worthless because we've moved on to alternative technologies, then the Middle East may face a reckoning of reality once more.

    Have you read The Prize? Until the mid-1970s, the price of oil was basically fixed by the big oil companies and the countries who produced the actual oil got very little.

    As Middle Eastern countries took back control of their oil, they realised they had been screwed over by BP, Exxon and Shell for decades. I think this contributed to a sense of grievence in the Middle East.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283

    Cyclefree said:

    Another benefit: Britain will be excluded from the Schengen Information sharing system which the British police use.

    Perhaps we can ask the Chinese to hack into it for us.
    Presumably if the EU excludes us from information sharing, we won't share information with them either. Including intelligence.

    Or perhaps they want our information, in which case they'll treat us as equals and share it so long as we share ours? Both parties need to act like equal partners on the world stage and grown ups.
    Exactly. Maybe we should all come together and form an association wherein such freely shared information is facilitated.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202

    Cyclefree said:

    Another benefit: Britain will be excluded from the Schengen Information sharing system which the British police use.

    Perhaps we can ask the Chinese to hack into it for us.
    Presumably if the EU excludes us from information sharing, we won't share information with them either. Including intelligence.

    Or perhaps they want our information, in which case they'll treat us as equals and share it so long as we share ours? Both parties need to act like equal partners on the world stage and grown ups.
    A different agreement may be reached but as the EU has made clear over and over again, a non-member will not get the same access as a member. That is presumably what you want.
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us?
    ...A destructive competition for leadership of the Muslim world soon began, in which Iran and Saudi Arabia wielded, exploited, and distorted religion in the pursuit of raw power. That is the constant from 1979 onward, the torrent that flattens everything in its path. Nothing has changed the Arab and Muslim world as deeply and fundamentally as the events of 1979.

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I've not read the book just the snippet you've quoted but I'd trace the roots of the problem to before 1979 which I think was itself a symptom rather than a cause, the problem began earlier in the 70s and in one word was: Oil.

    Oil and OPEC's actions in the 70s cause the Middle East to be awash with oil money that led to and funded the radical issues of 1979 onwards. By having so much money associated with a single export that the state could control it led to corruption and opportunities for it.

    For me I am very keen on seeing us end our use of oil and always have been but not just for "environmental" reasons but also to end our relationship with the Middle East and the financing of petrochemical countries.

    Once we leave oil in the ground and consider it worthless because we've moved on to alternative technologies, then the Middle East may face a reckoning of reality once more.
    The Sunni-Shia rivalry long predated the discovery - let alone use - of oil and will long outlast it. It is central to what sort of Islam becomes dominant in different Muslim countries. That issue is not going to disappear and, even if the West becomes wholly independent of the Middle East for energy, given the size of Muslim communities in the West we still be affected by the continuation and outcome of that rivalry.
    The rivalry existed yes, of course it did, but it didn't lead to what we see today. Why did an ancient rivalry suddenly from 1979 lead to what we have now?

    It is the exploitation of oil money that has (as the saying goes) thrown petrol on the fire of that pre-existing conflict. The Saudis and Iranians and others have been able to finance their religious conflict with billions of petrodollars.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us?

    Other pivotal moments undid alliances, started or ended wars, or saw the birth of new political movements. But the radical legacy of 1979 did all this and more: It began a process that transformed societies and altered cultural and religious references. The dynamics unleashed in 1979 changed who we are and hijacked our collective memory, reengineering vibrant, pluralistic countries from Egypt to Pakistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I've not read the book just the snippet you've quoted but I'd trace the roots of the problem to before 1979 which I think was itself a symptom rather than a cause, the problem began earlier in the 70s and in one word was: Oil.

    Oil and OPEC's actions in the 70s cause the Middle East to be awash with oil money that led to and funded the radical issues of 1979 onwards. By having so much money associated with a single export that the state could control it led to corruption and opportunities for it.

    For me I am very keen on seeing us end our use of oil and always have been but not just for "environmental" reasons but also to end our relationship with the Middle East and the financing of petrochemical countries.

    Once we leave oil in the ground and consider it worthless because we've moved on to alternative technologies, then the Middle East may face a reckoning of reality once more.
    The Sunni-Shia rivalry long predated the discovery - let alone use - of oil and will long outlast it. It is central to what sort of Islam becomes dominant in different Muslim countries. That issue is not going to disappear and, even if the West becomes wholly independent of the Middle East for energy, given the size of Muslim communities in the West we still be affected by the continuation and outcome of that rivalry.
    The rivalry existed yes, of course it did, but it didn't lead to what we see today. Why did an ancient rivalry suddenly from 1979 lead to what we have now?

    It is the exploitation of oil money that has (as the saying goes) thrown petrol on the fire of that pre-existing conflict. The Saudis and Iranians and others have been able to finance their religious conflict with billions of petrodollars.
    Yes - but even if petrol is no longer the money spinner it once was, the extremism which it has financed will remain. It will not vanish once petrodollars vanish. What countervailing forces are there?
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    TOPPING said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:
    Hilarious. This is the guy who proposed telling those who voted in the biggest democratic vote in our history to vote again as they got it wrong first time. Now he's posing as a champion of accountability and democracy.

    But I doubt he has either the self-awareness or humour to see the glaring contradiction.
    The contradiction of asking (the same) people to vote about an issue they voted on several years ago? Exactly what part of that constitutes a contradiction?
    Posing as a champion of democracy and accountability while using any excuse to avoid implementing a democratic vote, as promised in the manifesto he stood on in 2017. Pretty obvious really. I'm sure he'd have found a reason for a third and fourth vote had the proles voted the wrong way the second time.

    Unless of course you think he'd also have proposed another referendum had Remain won in 2016, but I doubt you're that deluded.
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Another benefit: Britain will be excluded from the Schengen Information sharing system which the British police use.

    Perhaps we can ask the Chinese to hack into it for us.
    Presumably if the EU excludes us from information sharing, we won't share information with them either. Including intelligence.

    Or perhaps they want our information, in which case they'll treat us as equals and share it so long as we share ours? Both parties need to act like equal partners on the world stage and grown ups.
    A different agreement may be reached but as the EU has made clear over and over again, a non-member will not get the same access as a member. That is presumably what you want.
    I'm 100% fine with that, so long as we act with parity. Whatever information we desire from them is presumably the same information they desire from us and so long as we act as equals and share willingly then what is wrong with that?

    What are we going to be cut off from, that we desire - and why won't they desire it from us? Why would they cut themselves off from something both parties desire to be agreed.
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good article (and I shall order the book):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/
    What happened to us?
    .akistan, as both Iran and Saudi Arabia worked to rally the masses to their sides with money, propaganda, and proselytizing.

    I've not read the book just the snippet you've quoted but I'd trace the roots of the problem to before 1979 which I think was itself a symptom rather than a cause, the problem began earlier in the 70s and in one word was: Oil.

    Oil and OPEC's actions in the 70s cause the Middle East to be awash with oil money that led to and funded the radical issues of 1979 onwards. By having so much money associated with a single export that the state could control it led to corruption and opportunities for it.

    For me I am very keen on seeing us end our use of oil and always have been but not just for "environmental" reasons but also to end our relationship with the Middle East and the financing of petrochemical countries.

    Once we leave oil in the ground and consider it worthless because we've moved on to alternative technologies, then the Middle East may face a reckoning of reality once more.
    The Sunni-Shia rivalry long predated the discovery - let alone use - of oil and will long outlast it. It is central to what sort of Islam becomes dominant in different Muslim countries. That issue is not going to disappear and, even if the West becomes wholly independent of the Middle East for energy, given the size of Muslim communities in the West we still be affected by the continuation and outcome of that rivalry.
    The rivalry existed yes, of course it did, but it didn't lead to what we see today. Why did an ancient rivalry suddenly from 1979 lead to what we have now?

    It is the exploitation of oil money that has (as the saying goes) thrown petrol on the fire of that pre-existing conflict. The Saudis and Iranians and others have been able to finance their religious conflict with billions of petrodollars.
    The article points out the three events in 1979 that led to a race to be the "leader" of the Muslim world between SA and Iran. Both sides stoked sectarianism to such a level that war and violence and hate were the result.
This discussion has been closed.