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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big worry for Trump is that his disapproval ratings remain

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited January 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big worry for Trump is that his disapproval ratings remain above 50%

The chart shows the Real Clear Politics average for the President’s approval ratings which over the decades have been a good pointer to electoral outcomes.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First like Boris
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    First like Boris

    Second like Carrie, Maria, Petronella and all the others?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    edited January 2020
    General Qasem Soleimani was involved with both the planning as well as the execution of the operation to expel ISIL from Tikrit

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Would be nice to think this thread header is right. But it depends a bit on who the Dems put up. I see nobody with the talent of a Reagan or a Clinton in their field. Buttigieg might be nearest but he is very inexperienced.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148

    General Qasem Soleimani was involved with both the planning as well as the execution of the operation to expel ISIL from Tikrit

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

    And they have been expelled
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    The 45.1% current Trump approval rating average is also almost identical to his 2016 popular voteshare of 46.1%
  • HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    The only time a Republican won the popular vote within the last 30 years.
  • HYUFD said:

    The 45% current Trump approval rating average is also identical to his 2016 popular voteshare

    Nope, he got 46%.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    The only time a Republican won the popular vote within the last 30 years.
    Though if it is Trump v Sanders or Warren he could win the popular vote this time too, especially if Bloomberg goes 3rd party
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    FPT:
    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    I’m fairly sure his approval ratings didn’t go that low until after Hurricane Katrina, by which time the question of re-election was of course moot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US military at the end of the day could defeat the military of almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
  • Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    US is in trouble - BBC have convincingly analysed the Iranian military colossus.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50982743

    (What a bunch)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,126
    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    I remember Bob Worcester... :(
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,211
    Iran obviously won't take on the US in a h2h instead it'll be more and it will be more sponsorship of terrorism, possible blockade of Hormuz, more help for Hezbollah and Hpuhti rebels that sort of thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    Wisconsin -14%
    Michigan -14%
    Iowa -13%

    He remains (relatively) popular in Florida (+1%) and Ohio (-5%).

    If you take -10% as the point at which Trump loses a state (and +0% at the point at which he gains one), then he loses three states above, and wins by the narrowest of margins in 2020... Trump gets 272.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,211
    45.1 is ok for Trump actually. If he wins 45.1% he can hold for a second term
  • rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    Thank you. I shall be happy to be proved incorrect, but having caught the last Democratic debate by accident (forced to watch it respectfully by in-laws) I came to the conclusion that the winner was ... Trump. Not one of them could stand up to his brutal campaigning where and when it actually matters. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    If the US srike on General Qasem Soleimani really was to stop a war - where? Lebanon?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    Fortunately for him none of those are necessary to win.

    Oh no wait, I got myself confused there for a moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    The only scenario the US might go to war with China is if China invaded Taiwan or Japan, the US would not invade China on a whim
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their TO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?
    The aim was to remove the Taliban from power in Afghanistan and Saddam from power in Iraq (and later IS) not to make them colonies
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Cookie said:

    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?

    All of them. Plus, of course, most countries occupying other countries are only doing it for short term reasons. Further, international opinion is against it. Where countries do want to stay and are willing to take fearful punishment and opprobrium for doing so, it can still be done - ask the people of the West Bank.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    But Trump won't be facing anyone as electable as Kerry.

    Actually, I remember being on a skiing holiday during the 04 campaign, where a friend of mine - who had fully assumed he wanted John Kerry to win was appalled to see him on the telly for the first time. "Is that him?" he asked, incredulously. "He looks... rickety". Still moee to recommend him than any of the current lot though. And as has been previously nited, Americans don't seem to mind rickety politicians.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    edited January 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    45.1 is ok for Trump actually. If he wins 45.1% he can hold for a second term

    Doesn't that depend.

    If Michael Bloomberg is a third party candidate, then 45.1% is a landslide for Trump.

    I don't see a significant Left Wing spoiler vote this time (not even if Buttigieg or Biden is the candidate), but let's be pessimistic for the Dems and assume there is exactly the same third party votes as last time. That would mean that ADem would be on 1% more than last time, and Trump would be on 1% less.

    That swing would be enough to hand much of the rust belt back to ADem.

    But, of course, we don't know what will happen between now and November. All we really know is that it's likely to be verrrrrrry close.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    Wisconsin -14%
    Michigan -14%
    Iowa -13%

    He remains (relatively) popular in Florida (+1%) and Ohio (-5%).

    If you take -10% as the point at which Trump loses a state (and +0% at the point at which he gains one), then he loses three states above, and wins by the narrowest of margins in 2020... Trump gets 272.
    Trump has a 45% approval rating in Pennsylvania, 46% in Ohio and 49% in Florida, he can be re elected with those
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Jist a reminder about presidential polling.

    The US pollsters likely to vote screening questions are brutal. If you didn't vote at the last presidential election then many pollsters stop the call right there and then.

    This means if you were an Obama 2008 and 2012 voter but couldn't stomach voting for Clinton then you won't appear in 2020 polling.

    Given what happened in the rust belt (GOP vote increased a tiny bit, Dem vote cratered) this is important.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    But Trump won't be facing anyone as electable as Kerry.

    Actually, I remember being on a skiing holiday during the 04 campaign, where a friend of mine - who had fully assumed he wanted John Kerry to win was appalled to see him on the telly for the first time. "Is that him?" he asked, incredulously. "He looks... rickety". Still moee to recommend him than any of the current lot though. And as has been previously nited, Americans don't seem to mind rickety politicians.
    I think it's too early to tell.

    Worth remembering that in 2004, Kerry was nowhere in the Democratic polling at this point. He was at 9% in Iowa.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    Obama was on just 46.5% approval at this stage in 2012, he was re elected less than a year later with 51% of the vote
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    Wisconsin -14%
    Michigan -14%
    Iowa -13%

    He remains (relatively) popular in Florida (+1%) and Ohio (-5%).

    If you take -10% as the point at which Trump loses a state (and +0% at the point at which he gains one), then he loses three states above, and wins by the narrowest of margins in 2020... Trump gets 272.
    Trump has a 45% approval rating in Pennsylvania, 46% in Ohio and 49% in Florida, he can be re elected with those
    Yes, that's exactly what I said.

    That gets him 272 electoral college votes after losing Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    Obama was on just 46.5% approval at this stage in 2012, he was re elected less than a year later with 51% of the vote
    Yes, but he also had net approval ratings well above Trump's.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    But Trump won't be facing anyone as electable as Kerry.

    Actually, I remember being on a skiing holiday during the 04 campaign, where a friend of mine - who had fully assumed he wanted John Kerry to win was appalled to see him on the telly for the first time. "Is that him?" he asked, incredulously. "He looks... rickety". Still moee to recommend him than any of the current lot though. And as has been previously nited, Americans don't seem to mind rickety politicians.
    I think it's too early to tell.

    Worth remembering that in 2004, Kerry was nowhere in the Democratic polling at this point. He was at 9% in Iowa.

    By 6th January 2004 Kerry was up to 15% in Iowa, by 13th January 21%, by 15th January Kerry took the lead, it is now January 3rd

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2004_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It wasn't so great at defeating Chinese proxies N.Korea or N.Vietnam, let alone controlling them. Of course there's always the controlling several million square miles of radioactive glass option, but that would depend on being less radioactive & glassy themselves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.

    It wasn't so great at defeating Chinese proxies N.Korea or N.Vietnam, let alone controlling them. Of course there's always the controlling several million square miles of radioactive glass option, but that would depend on being less radioactive & glassy themselves.
    North Vietnam was not a Chinese proxy. Quite the reverse, the Chinese stole much of the Soviet military aid that was taken through China by rail.

    As for North Korea, it would have been defeated without Chinese intervention. With Chinese intervention, both sides fought themselves to a stalemate. Could the US have won? Yes. Was it worth the costs and risks involved? Truman, quite correctly, judged not.
  • Last like Eddie the eagle.
  • Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of The world.
    Yebbut for how long? Even India was a formal Crown Colony for only 89 years.
  • Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of The world.
    Yebbut for how long? Even India was a formal Crown Colony for only 89 years.
    People can get guns easier nowadays and will fight back.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    But Trump won't be facing anyone as electable as Kerry.

    Actually, I remember being on a skiing holiday during the 04 campaign, where a friend of mine - who had fully assumed he wanted John Kerry to win was appalled to see him on the telly for the first time. "Is that him?" he asked, incredulously. "He looks... rickety". Still moee to recommend him than any of the current lot though. And as has been previously nited, Americans don't seem to mind rickety politicians.
    I think it's too early to tell.

    Worth remembering that in 2004, Kerry was nowhere in the Democratic polling at this point. He was at 9% in Iowa.

    By 6th January 2004 Kerry was up to 15% in Iowa, by 13th January 21%, by 15th January Kerry took the lead, it is now January 3rd

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2004_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
    My point, though, is that relying on the December 2003 Iowa polls would have lost you a lot of money. The top two candidates ended up sinking without trace, while the nomination ended up a battle between two people who barely registered.

    In the next few days I'm sure we'll get a new Iowa poll. It may well show Sanders surging, and Buttigieg sinking like a stone. Or it may show that Klobuchar is in double digits. Or it may show that Biden's "No Malarkey" tour is working and he's leading in Iowa as much as nationally. All these things are possible.

  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    But Trump won't be facing anyone as electable as Kerry.

    Actually, I remember being on a skiing holiday during the 04 campaign, where a friend of mine - who had fully assumed he wanted John Kerry to win was appalled to see him on the telly for the first time. "Is that him?" he asked, incredulously. "He looks... rickety". Still moee to recommend him than any of the current lot though. And as has been previously nited, Americans don't seem to mind rickety politicians.
    I think it's too early to tell.

    Worth remembering that in 2004, Kerry was nowhere in the Democratic polling at this point. He was at 9% in Iowa.

    I actually think all of the top four, with the possible exception of Sanders, are stronger candidates than Kerry. Biden is charismatic. Sanders is seen as less corrupt. Warren is smarter and less corrupt. Buttigieg is smarter and more charismatic.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    Obama was on just 46.5% approval at this stage in 2012, he was re elected less than a year later with 51% of the vote
    Yes, but he also had net approval ratings well above Trump's.
    I don't think approval matters much at all. Disapproval is everything.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their TO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?
    The wide spread of small automatic firearms. Makes guerilla warfare far easier.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of The world.
    Yebbut for how long? Even India was a formal Crown Colony for only 89 years.
    That's longer than the history of the Soviet Union!
    I'm not advocating colonialism. I'm just wondering why when powers do attempt to control foreign countries they are so unsuccessful at it.
  • Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been .
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of The world.
    Yebbut for how long? Even India was a formal Crown Colony for only 89 years.
    That's longer than the history of the Soviet Union!
    I'm not advocating colonialism. I'm just wondering why when powers do attempt to control foreign countries they are so unsuccessful at it.
    Compared to the longevity of Roman control of Britain?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,269
    edited January 2020
    deleted due to block quote snafu.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 597
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?

    All of them. Plus, of course, most countries occupying other countries are only doing it for short term reasons. Further, international opinion is against it. Where countries do want to stay and are willing to take fearful punishment and opprobrium for doing so, it can still be done - ask the people of the West Bank.
    Russia's annexation of Crimea was pretty straightforward.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    edited January 2020
    Eavesdropping in the pub. There is a grouo of Labour Party members debating the leadership, loudly and angrily and with lots of Mancunian swearing. Verdicts are: Angela - she's thick. Lisa - she's lovely and she's one of us. But she's not a leader. Jess - like her but we'll lose half our members. Ian - no. Kier, or, at a push, Emily are the only ones who can unite the party.
    This is only six people, mind! But they are not, to look at, the sort of peoole you would expect to be favouring Kier or Emily.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Gabs3 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I believe Geeorge W Bush was re elected actually or have you forgotten the 2004 election when he beat Kerry?

    At this point in the 2000-2004 cycle, GWB has net approval of +20.4%, against Trump's -10.4%.

    No President in modern times has ever had lower net approval ratings at this stage in their Presidency. See: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    That doesn't, of course, mean that Trump won't win. But it does mean that the augers from history aren't that great.
    Obama was on just 46.5% approval at this stage in 2012, he was re elected less than a year later with 51% of the vote
    Yes, but he also had net approval ratings well above Trump's.
    I don't think approval matters much at all. Disapproval is everything.
    The reverse, those who approve of you will vote for you, those who disapprove will only vote against you if the alternative is acceptable
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    dodrade said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?

    All of them. Plus, of course, most countries occupying other countries are only doing it for short term reasons. Further, international opinion is against it. Where countries do want to stay and are willing to take fearful punishment and opprobrium for doing so, it can still be done - ask the people of the West Bank.
    Russia's annexation of Crimea was pretty straightforward.
    Crucial factor here is that there was a population that was broadly pro-Russian.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    FF43 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
    Trump is on 45% approval in Virginia and Nevada, both Hillary 2016 states but also Bush 2004 states
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    FF43 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
    That would be hilarious.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    The bar for all the candidates to beat will be the 4.5% Liz Kendall got I suppose.

    Although weirdly I remember her being in the race more than Burnham, who came second.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    Gabs3 said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their TO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?
    The wide spread of small automatic firearms. Makes guerilla warfare far easier.
    That's an interesting point. I think that's right. Conversely, before guns, you needed to amass a force of thousands to confront your oppressor's small but disciplined and effective army. And your force of tjousands had to be fairly ambivalent to their own survival prospects.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    edited January 2020
    This is really interesting is Kieth Vaz's old seat of Leicester East. 58% Asian but voted 54% LEAVE.

    I remember people in here being shocked at how big of a swing it saw to Con. With many saying it was down to the Con candidate being Asian and the Lab candidate being white, but now I think it is more to do with the high Leave vote.

    Are there any other Leave seats where it looks like the British Asian population voted Leave?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?
    Lack of squeamishness seems a strong factor. Reminds me of a bit from Terry Pratchett's Jingo, about the world watching, but that back in the day you wanted the world to watch your ruthlessness.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    dodrade said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?

    All of them. Plus, of course, most countries occupying other countries are only doing it for short term reasons. Further, international opinion is against it. Where countries do want to stay and are willing to take fearful punishment and opprobrium for doing so, it can still be done - ask the people of the West Bank.
    Russia's annexation of Crimea was pretty straightforward.
    Even then they pretended they weren't doing it initially.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    edited January 2020
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their allies with almost as much contempt as they do their enemies. More pertinently, Trump is as paranoid as Weyoun and would have assumed that if he told anyone they would leak it to the Iranians - and he might well have been right incidentally, as I can think of several NATO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    Only in a nuclear exchange. At which point terms like victory/defeat become somewhat meaningless.

    And the US couldn’t control Iran, let alone China.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Cookie said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    why is anyone surprised that the US didn’t tell anyone? They treat their TO leaders who would have seen that as the only way to stop it.

    But actually, I’m not sure that NATO were informed about the attack on Bin Laden and I’m 99% sure Blair was not told about the capture of Saddam until it had happened. So maybe it’s not that unusual.
    The US at the end of the day could defeat almost any other power on its own with the possible exception of China, if allies want to tag along the US is fine with that, if not it will go it alone anyway
    It could defeat China. The point is it couldn’t control it afterwards.
    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?
    The wide spread of small automatic firearms. Makes guerilla warfare far easier.
    That's an interesting point. I think that's right. Conversely, before guns, you needed to amass a force of thousands to confront your oppressor's small but disciplined and effective army. And your force of tjousands had to be fairly ambivalent to their own survival prospects.
    I understand the Romans elephant squadron seriously put the whatsits up the Britons.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    edited January 2020

    FF43 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
    That would be hilarious.
    Kendall did at least say something i.e. that we should listen try to reflect the values of the people whose votes we are trying to win (apart from those areas where Liz Kendall disagreed with those voters i.e. about Europe). Burnham's shtick was "I'm not a Westminster politician" - which wasn't desperately convincing.

    Edit: Apologies, I appear to have replied to the wrong conversation. I'm sure there was a comment somewhere about Liz Kendall being more memorable than Andy Burnham. But I can't find it now.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    edited January 2020
    If the presidential election was yesterday I would say that Trump would probably have won.

    Here is the state polling average of Trump's lead vs the Top 3 Democrats:

    Texas +6
    Iowa +5
    Florida +2
    Michigan +2
    Wisconsin +1
    N.Carolina 0
    Arizona 0
    Georgia -1
    Virginia -2
    Nevada -4
    N.Hampshire -5
    Pennsylvania -5

    No polls from Ohio, but looking at Pennsylvania he probably lead by 2 points.
    Only Georgia and Virginia look way out of line.

    If Trump wins all the states that he is either tied or leading, plus Georgia he gets 285 Electoral Votes.

    But the Biden-Ukraine and Iran War stuff is not a sign that Trump thinks he is going to win, those are acts of a campaign that is desperate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Nandy's opponent in the GE was Ashley Williams, and if she can best the protagonist of the Evil Dead films, she can surely beat Sir Keir and the others.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    speedy2 said:

    If the presidential election was yesterday I would say that Trump would probably have won.

    Here is the state polling average of Trump lead vs the Top 3 Democrats:

    Texas +6
    Iowa +5
    Florida +2
    Michigan +2
    Wisconsin +1
    N.Carolina 0
    Arizona 0
    Georgia -1
    Virginia -2
    Nevada -4
    N.Hampshire -5
    Pennsylvania -5

    No polls from Ohio.
    Only Georgia and Virginia look way out of line.

    If Trump wins all the states that he is either tied or leading, plus Georgia he gets 285 Electoral Votes.

    But the Biden-Ukraine and Iran War stuff is not a sign that Trump thinks he is going to win, those are acts of a campaign that is desperate.

    Or the sign of a President who has lost his marbles.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
    That would be hilarious.
    Burnham's shtick was "I'm not a Westminster politician" - which wasn't desperately convincing.
    Amazing Corbyn pulled that off and continues to do so for many, despite being as Westminster as they come (no, being a backbencher for most of the time doesn't prevent that).

    Still, it would take some doing to try to beat Jeb Bush trying to claim to be a political outsider.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    nunu2 said:

    This is really interesting is Kieth Vaz's old seat of Leicester East. 58% Asian but voted 54% LEAVE.

    I remember people in here being shocked at how big of a swing it saw to Con. With many saying it was down to the Con candidate being Asian and the Lab candidate being white, but now I think it is more to do with the high Leave vote.

    Are there any other Leave seats where it looks like the British Asian population voted Leave?

    As I remember post-referendum polling, British Asians tended leave.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
    That would be hilarious.
    Burnham's shtick was "I'm not a Westminster politician" - which wasn't desperately convincing.
    Amazing Corbyn pulled that off and continues to do so for many, despite being as Westminster as they come (no, being a backbencher for most of the time doesn't prevent that).

    Still, it would take some doing to try to beat Jeb Bush trying to claim to be a political outsider.
    Because Corbyn was an unknown backbencher that was ideologically pure.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    edited January 2020
    kle4 said:




    Lack of squeamishness seems a strong factor. Reminds me of a bit from Terry Pratchett's Jingo, about the world watching, but that back in the day you wanted the world to watch your ruthlessness.

    Yep I would agree with that. Britain won and maintained an Emplire through the selective, targetted use of utter ruthless force. They got away with it because most of the time it was out of the public eye and when it was brought to the attention of the public they generally thought they were on the side of the angels.

    The world today has irrevocably changed and personally I think that is a good thing. What we need now is for the last of the adventurers and Empire builders to realise it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    nunu2 said:

    This is really interesting is Kieth Vaz's old seat of Leicester East. 58% Asian but voted 54% LEAVE.

    I remember people in here being shocked at how big of a swing it saw to Con. With many saying it was down to the Con candidate being Asian and the Lab candidate being white, but now I think it is more to do with the high Leave vote.

    Are there any other Leave seats where it looks like the British Asian population voted Leave?

    Claudia Webbe is not white.

    I think there was a low turnout of BME voters in the Brexit referendum, but also Leave did target Asian communities with promises of making RoW immigration easier. Certainly some of my Philipino friends fell for that. Not quite what was promised Brexit voters in Hartlepool of course, but we shall soon find out who is disappointed.

    Keith Vaz also had a large personal vote, having pork barrelled very actively over the years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    speedy2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Disapproval ratings? Trump lost the popular vote last time so what difference does it make if he piles up even more disapproval in the fly-to states?

    There's good state-by-state approval/disapproval ratings here: https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/

    He's not just unpopular on the coasts, but also in Iowa, the rust belt and Arizona.
    That's interesting. Trump is extremely unpopular in a fair number of states and not very popular anywhere except Wyoming (somewhere has to) and -ish in a couple more. But he is neutral in some very important states. Because the election is decided state by state, that helps him a lot relative to his dire headline popularity figure.
    Places like Georgia and North Carolina are very dangerous for him. There is a big black population the Democrats can tap into after poor turnout last time. If someone like Gillum, Abrams or Booker is the VP especially.
    States that are in play (+- 10% net approval) include Texas, Florida, Ohio, Georgia, the Carolinas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Nevada, Arizona. He has quite a lot to play with. But something will need to change, I think, for him to win Michigan, Wisconsin or Iowa again.

    I think it's entirely winnable for him, but, interestingly he could very well also crash and burn and win hardly any states at all.
    That would be hilarious.
    Burnham's shtick was "I'm not a Westminster politician" - which wasn't desperately convincing.
    Amazing Corbyn pulled that off and continues to do so for many, despite being as Westminster as they come (no, being a backbencher for most of the time doesn't prevent that).

    Still, it would take some doing to try to beat Jeb Bush trying to claim to be a political outsider.
    Because Corbyn was an unknown backbencher that was ideologically pure.
    Yes, but the idea he is not like other politicians was never very true, and certainly is not now, yet plenty of people seem to believe, even aside from his ideological purity, that he is not as capable of obfuscation, spin and other behaviours one would expect of a political animal steeped in decades of service.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    speedy2 said:

    If the presidential election was yesterday I would say that Trump would probably have won.

    Here is the state polling average of Trump's lead vs the Top 3 Democrats:

    Texas +6
    Iowa +5
    Florida +2
    Michigan +2
    Wisconsin +1
    N.Carolina 0
    Arizona 0
    Georgia -1
    Virginia -2
    Nevada -4
    N.Hampshire -5
    Pennsylvania -5

    No polls from Ohio, but looking at Pennsylvania he probably lead by 2 points.
    Only Georgia and Virginia look way out of line.

    If Trump wins all the states that he is either tied or leading, plus Georgia he gets 285 Electoral Votes.

    But the Biden-Ukraine and Iran War stuff is not a sign that Trump thinks he is going to win, those are acts of a campaign that is desperate.

    I'm not that convinced by the state polls yet.

    Pennsylvania looks far too good for the Democrats, while Wisconsin, where the Democratic Lesbian Senator got more votes than Trump in the midterms (which is unprecedented) looks implausibly Republican (especially given state approval ratings).

  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    Nigelb said:

    speedy2 said:

    If the presidential election was yesterday I would say that Trump would probably have won.

    Here is the state polling average of Trump lead vs the Top 3 Democrats:

    Texas +6
    Iowa +5
    Florida +2
    Michigan +2
    Wisconsin +1
    N.Carolina 0
    Arizona 0
    Georgia -1
    Virginia -2
    Nevada -4
    N.Hampshire -5
    Pennsylvania -5

    No polls from Ohio.
    Only Georgia and Virginia look way out of line.

    If Trump wins all the states that he is either tied or leading, plus Georgia he gets 285 Electoral Votes.

    But the Biden-Ukraine and Iran War stuff is not a sign that Trump thinks he is going to win, those are acts of a campaign that is desperate.

    Or the sign of a President who has lost his marbles.
    We can at least have a laugh, as long as we are not involved:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE_9MzFo2zw
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    Harris and HarrisX both have nationwide polls on the Democratic nomination out today.

    Harris has Bloomberg leapfrogging Buttigieg into fourth (and into double digits).
    HarrisX has Bloomberg getting just 2%.

    Which, I wonder, is right.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    kle4 said:

    The bar for all the candidates to beat will be the 4.5% Liz Kendall got I suppose.

    Although weirdly I remember her being in the race more than Burnham, who came second.
    BF can't decide between Nandy and Phillips. Both on 13.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    Cookie said:

    Eavesdropping in the pub. There is a grouo of Labour Party members debating the leadership, loudly and angrily and with lots of Mancunian swearing. Verdicts are: Angela - she's thick. Lisa - she's lovely and she's one of us. But she's not a leader. Jess - like her but we'll lose half our members. Ian - no. Kier, or, at a push, Emily are the only ones who can unite the party.
    This is only six people, mind! But they are not, to look at, the sort of peoole you would expect to be favouring Kier or Emily.

    Thornberry's 70 seems bonkers out to me.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rcs1000 said:

    speedy2 said:

    If the presidential election was yesterday I would say that Trump would probably have won.

    Here is the state polling average of Trump's lead vs the Top 3 Democrats:

    Texas +6
    Iowa +5
    Florida +2
    Michigan +2
    Wisconsin +1
    N.Carolina 0
    Arizona 0
    Georgia -1
    Virginia -2
    Nevada -4
    N.Hampshire -5
    Pennsylvania -5

    No polls from Ohio, but looking at Pennsylvania he probably lead by 2 points.
    Only Georgia and Virginia look way out of line.

    If Trump wins all the states that he is either tied or leading, plus Georgia he gets 285 Electoral Votes.

    But the Biden-Ukraine and Iran War stuff is not a sign that Trump thinks he is going to win, those are acts of a campaign that is desperate.

    I'm not that convinced by the state polls yet.

    Pennsylvania looks far too good for the Democrats, while Wisconsin, where the Democratic Lesbian Senator got more votes than Trump in the midterms (which is unprecedented) looks implausibly Republican (especially given state approval ratings).

    Pennsylvania has two very large cities for the Democrats to draw votes from, and a big local political machines. Wisconsin has had its union base decimated by Walker and... Milwaukee.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    Foxy said:

    nunu2 said:

    This is really interesting is Kieth Vaz's old seat of Leicester East. 58% Asian but voted 54% LEAVE.

    I remember people in here being shocked at how big of a swing it saw to Con. With many saying it was down to the Con candidate being Asian and the Lab candidate being white, but now I think it is more to do with the high Leave vote.

    Are there any other Leave seats where it looks like the British Asian population voted Leave?

    Claudia Webbe is not white.

    I think there was a low turnout of BME voters in the Brexit referendum, but also Leave did target Asian communities with promises of making RoW immigration easier. Certainly some of my Philipino friends fell for that. Not quite what was promised Brexit voters in Hartlepool of course, but we shall soon find out who is disappointed.

    Keith Vaz also had a large personal vote, having pork barrelled very actively over the years.
    Claudia Webbe is not white but is an outsider, parachuted in by the party establishment caysung great ructions in the local party. It may be the case that in established minority communities like that in Leicester East, individuals are more important than parties to a greayer degree than usual.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    rcs1000 said:

    speedy2 said:

    If the presidential election was yesterday I would say that Trump would probably have won.

    Here is the state polling average of Trump's lead vs the Top 3 Democrats:

    Texas +6
    Iowa +5
    Florida +2
    Michigan +2
    Wisconsin +1
    N.Carolina 0
    Arizona 0
    Georgia -1
    Virginia -2
    Nevada -4
    N.Hampshire -5
    Pennsylvania -5

    No polls from Ohio, but looking at Pennsylvania he probably lead by 2 points.
    Only Georgia and Virginia look way out of line.

    If Trump wins all the states that he is either tied or leading, plus Georgia he gets 285 Electoral Votes.

    But the Biden-Ukraine and Iran War stuff is not a sign that Trump thinks he is going to win, those are acts of a campaign that is desperate.

    I'm not that convinced by the state polls yet.

    Pennsylvania looks far too good for the Democrats, while Wisconsin, where the Democratic Lesbian Senator got more votes than Trump in the midterms (which is unprecedented) looks implausibly Republican (especially given state approval ratings).

    Given how terribly Trump and the GOP are doing in upstate N.Y. I think it's true, Trump is really doing as badly as Bush W. in the north east.

    The Wisconsin polls were very reputable, but the Georgia polls were not weighted by education.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Not sure this is as nuanced as it could be....”anger” just makes us look impotent....

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1213224476533559297?s=20
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    Excellent launch by Jess Phillips. Cracking slogan.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769

    Not sure this is as nuanced as it could be....”anger” just makes us look impotent....

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1213224476533559297?s=20

    Hello Downing Street policy kids. This is your warning what a free trade negotiation with Trump will be like.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Cookie said:

    dodrade said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    It's very difficult for any power to control anywhere it defeats nowadays. In the age of empires, Britain managed to control a quarter of yhe world. France did something similar. Nowadays, the world's richest country and biggest military can't even control Afghanistan or Iraq. What has changed? Is it just that people are more unwilling to be governed? Or were the old empires just less squeamish about exercising control? Or something else?

    All of them. Plus, of course, most countries occupying other countries are only doing it for short term reasons. Further, international opinion is against it. Where countries do want to stay and are willing to take fearful punishment and opprobrium for doing so, it can still be done - ask the people of the West Bank.
    Russia's annexation of Crimea was pretty straightforward.
    Crucial factor here is that there was a population that was broadly pro-Russian.
    That was the dumb thing about it - Russia would probably have one a properly conducted reunification referendum. Now it’s just illegal.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,835
    Foxy said:

    nunu2 said:

    This is really interesting is Kieth Vaz's old seat of Leicester East. 58% Asian but voted 54% LEAVE.

    I remember people in here being shocked at how big of a swing it saw to Con. With many saying it was down to the Con candidate being Asian and the Lab candidate being white, but now I think it is more to do with the high Leave vote.

    Are there any other Leave seats where it looks like the British Asian population voted Leave?

    Claudia Webbe is not white.

    I think there was a low turnout of BME voters in the Brexit referendum, but also Leave did target Asian communities with promises of making RoW immigration easier. Certainly some of my Philipino friends fell for that. Not quite what was promised Brexit voters in Hartlepool of course, but we shall soon find out who is disappointed.

    Keith Vaz also had a large personal vote, having pork barrelled very actively over the years.
    I remember a decade or so back picking up a newspaper on a bus which turned out to be the newspaper of the local Punjabi community; its headline was a complaint about Polish immigration and specifically the impact it was having on the ability of Punjabi builders to run their businesses profitably. It is perfectly rational for immigrants to have concerns about immigration.
  • nunu2 said:

    This is really interesting is Kieth Vaz's old seat of Leicester East. 58% Asian but voted 54% LEAVE.

    I remember people in here being shocked at how big of a swing it saw to Con. With many saying it was down to the Con candidate being Asian and the Lab candidate being white, but now I think it is more to do with the high Leave vote.

    Are there any other Leave seats where it looks like the British Asian population voted Leave?

    Burnley, Hounslow, Luton, Newham and Slough are possibilities.

    The British Asian population might have voted Leave in Barnsley, Bassetlaw and Bolsover and other strongly Leave areas as well.

    But in such places its only a small proportion of the electorate.

    If we assume that the maximum Leave vote among white voters was 75% it might be possible to do rough calculations to give estimates of how non-white voters voted.

    For example 95% white Basildon was 69% Leave while 86% white Thurrock was 72% Leave and 96% white Castle Point was 73% Leave.

    Which suggests non-white voters in Thurrock at least voted Leave.

  • kle4 said:

    The bar for all the candidates to beat will be the 4.5% Liz Kendall got I suppose.

    Although weirdly I remember her being in the race more than Burnham, who came second.
    But why do you remember Kendall being in the race ?

    For me her big achievement was being referred to as the 'Blair Witch Project' by BigJohnOwls.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    Cookie said:

    Eavesdropping in the pub. There is a grouo of Labour Party members debating the leadership, loudly and angrily and with lots of Mancunian swearing. Verdicts are: Angela - she's thick. Lisa - she's lovely and she's one of us. But she's not a leader. Jess - like her but we'll lose half our members. Ian - no. Kier, or, at a push, Emily are the only ones who can unite the party.
    This is only six people, mind! But they are not, to look at, the sort of peoole you would expect to be favouring Kier or Emily.

    Thornberry's 70 seems bonkers out to me.
    Probably a lot to do with this.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1212725650878017536
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    Not sure this is as nuanced as it could be....”anger” just makes us look impotent....

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1213224476533559297?s=20

    I would advise silence.
    Trump maybe bad but for Britain he is our only ally.

    As long as he doesn't blow up people in a fit he is still better than irish Joe Biden for Britain.

    https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2020/01/16/joe-biden-designated-mourner/

    Biden identifies with his fanatically anti-english aunt, which even told him bedtime stories about the Evil British.
    Given Biden is a man stuck in the far past that's a big problem for Britain.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    kyf_100 said:

    Cookie said:

    Eavesdropping in the pub. There is a grouo of Labour Party members debating the leadership, loudly and angrily and with lots of Mancunian swearing. Verdicts are: Angela - she's thick. Lisa - she's lovely and she's one of us. But she's not a leader. Jess - like her but we'll lose half our members. Ian - no. Kier, or, at a push, Emily are the only ones who can unite the party.
    This is only six people, mind! But they are not, to look at, the sort of peoole you would expect to be favouring Kier or Emily.

    Thornberry's 70 seems bonkers out to me.
    Probably a lot to do with this.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1212725650878017536
    Yet Nandy is 13.

    70 implies a ≈ 1.5% chance, if my maths are not wrong at this Blue Nun hour.
This discussion has been closed.