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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Britain’s electoral patterns are changing – three great FT

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited December 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Britain’s electoral patterns are changing – three great FT charts

NEW: inspired by @p_surridge & @olhe, I looked at how the class gradient in British politics has been weakening.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • The FT is awesome.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited December 2019
    Second as I suspect Labour will always be from now on (at best)

    Updated due to typical TSE cheating
  • At last! I'm first!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited December 2019
    Third like Boris' term in 2028.

    Edit: fourth like Boris' term in 2032.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited December 2019

    The FT is awesome.

    Like all economists it is wrong about almost everything, but will provide half a dozen excellent reasons why.
  • At last! I'm first!

    Sorry, was in my own social media bubble.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    And yes, they are very good charts, especially the first one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    I'm surprised age did not use to be so polarized. Its worrying.

    At last! I'm first!

    Only so long as Boris holds Stoke.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    eek said:

    Second as I suspect Labour will always be from now on (at best)

    Depends, of course, on the product of (a) how Loony Left the Labour Party insists on being, and (b) how effective the Tories are at dealing with the housing problem.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    One correlation I think would work particularly well in England and Wales is Tory majority by constituency and distance from constituency to the nearest former coalmine or major university.
  • eek said:

    Second as I suspect Labour will always be from now on (at best)

    Updated due to typical TSE cheating

    Your not expecting labour to ever be third or fourth, are you?

    Although I'd like to see 3-4 parties battle instead of the same old boring main two.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Typical journalist -- the fit does not look anything like the data in the top plots.

    The FT is statistically illiterate (like all organisations run by Arts & Humanities graduates).
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Looking at the first and especially the third chart, you have to wonder whether the next couple of electoral cycles might see an outright inversion: class becoming a predictor again, but with the working class vote leaning Tory and the middle class vote leaning Labour?

    Allowing for a correction factor to account for the percentage of non-white C2DE voters in a constituency, you have to imagine that it might very well be.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,269
    edited December 2019
    It would be interesting to see the youth voted subdivided into (a) those who have been educated at a university; (b) those who have attended a "university" and (c) the rest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    The Tories vote is now even slightly stronger with skilled working class
    C2s than middle class ABC1s now, with Labour's core reduced to the semi skilled and unskilled working class and the unemployed
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    What we’ve seen from one poll in the aftermath of this election is unlike May the Tories comfortably won the 45-54 age group. So I’m guessing the mid 40s is around the time Tory voters outnumber Lab ones. Presumably slighter younger than 2017, but obviously Boris took a bigger slicer of the 55+ pie than May managed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Would be nice to see the bottom two updated for 2019. But still nice.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited December 2019

    Looking at the first and especially the third chart, you have to wonder whether the next couple of electoral cycles might see an outright inversion: class becoming a predictor again, but with the working class vote leaning Tory and the middle class vote leaning Labour?

    Allowing for a correction factor to account for the percentage of non-white C2DE voters in a constituency, you have to imagine that it might very well be.

    The middle class vote will not vote plurality Labour as long as it remains left, even if more of it is shifting Labour or LD the Tories still lead with middle class voters
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited December 2019

    eek said:

    Second as I suspect Labour will always be from now on (at best)

    Updated due to typical TSE cheating

    Your not expecting labour to ever be third or fourth, are you?

    Although I'd like to see 3-4 parties battle instead of the same old boring main two.
    I expect the Labour party to eventually die. It's lost Scotland it's now starting to lose the North and Midlands in a way that it really can't recover from (50 years of bad administration of councils is going to take a while to recover from if the Tory replacements are even vaguely competent).

    My expectations for last weeks election was for the Tories to either not get a majority or for the majority to be 70+. The only thing I couldn't work out (and I'm sat in a seat in the broken Red Wall) was whether the switch from Labour was going to be this election or later (and I suspected it was going to be later).

    What Boris now needs to do is to provide a reason for people to continue voting for the Tories. That requires delivering hope and the obvious road improvements within the next 5 years. Ideally it also includes HS3 and other improvements but I suspect those are longer term projects.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Second as I suspect Labour will always be from now on (at best)

    Depends, of course, on the product of (a) how Loony Left the Labour Party insists on being, and (b) how effective the Tories are at dealing with the housing problem.
    There isn't a housing problem in the seats they gained last week.

    Well there is for Labour - lots of new houses being bought by Tory voters!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    That's Baroness NiMo to you. ;)
  • Don't the bottom two charts only go to 2017 ???
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    Second as I suspect Labour will always be from now on (at best)

    Updated due to typical TSE cheating

    Your not expecting labour to ever be third or fourth, are you?

    Although I'd like to see 3-4 parties battle instead of the same old boring main two.
    I expect the Labour party to eventually die.

    My expectations for last weeks election was for the Tories to either not get a majority or for the majority to be 70+. The only thing I couldn't work out (and I'm sat in a seat in the broken Red Wall) was whether the switch from Labour was going to be this election or later (and I suspected it was going to be later).

    What Boris now needs to do is to provide a reason for people to continue voting for the Tories. That requires delivering hope and the obvious road improvements within the next 5 years. Ideally it also includes HS3 and other improvements but I suspect those are longer term projects.
    If the Labour party does dissolve, who then becomes the opposition or second place If you like?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    Young people have always voted Labour. Maybe it's a bit more pronounced now than it used to be but it isn't huge news.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Long Bailey for Labour Leader, is this a parody, like Back Burgon?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    He can't be bothered to put a placeholder in before the big reshuffle? A sign it will indeed be a big one in Feb?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited December 2019

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Andy_JS said:

    Young people have always voted Labour. Maybe it's a bit more pronounced now than it used to be but it isn't huge news.

    I think tuition fees have helped give a huge push to Labour (& the SNP in Scotland) among University students.
  • Was there any constituency which had a majority of under 100 ?

    In 2017 there were eleven.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    edited December 2019


    Typical journalist -- the fit does not look anything like the data in the top plots.

    The FT is statistically illiterate (like all organisations run by Arts & Humanities graduates).

    If you ask them nicely they’ll probably supply you with the raw data & you can run your own statistical analysis. Personally I suspect their statistical analysis is fine.

    What does concern me about those plots is that in the 1997-2005 data it seems that almost no constituencies are > 30% working class, whereas in 2010-2019 many of them are. I do wonder whether there’s some kind of systemic change in the dataset which is creating most of the observed change in the correlation.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Young people have always voted Labour. Maybe it's a bit more pronounced now than it used to be but it isn't huge news.

    It would be interesting to split between students/graduates and non-students/graduates.
  • Was there any constituency which had a majority of under 100 ?

    In 2017 there were eleven.

    Fermanagh And South Tyrone - Just 57 Votes.

    Was the constituency Jo Swinson stood in very close? I can't remember the exact figure.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    At last! I'm first!

    Sorry, was in my own social media bubble.

    At least you won the argument.
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
  • Was there any constituency which had a majority of under 100 ?

    In 2017 there were eleven.

    Fermanagh And South Tyrone - Just 57 Votes.

    Was the constituency Jo Swinson stood in very close? I can't remember the exact figure.
    149
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Phil said:


    Typical journalist -- the fit does not look anything like the data in the top plots.

    The FT is statistically illiterate (like all organisations run by Arts & Humanities graduates).

    If you ask them nicely they’ll probably supply you with the raw data & you can run your own statistical analysis. Personally I suspect their statistical analysis is fine.

    What does concern me about those plots is that in the 1997-2005 data it seems that almost no constituencies are > 30% working class, whereas in 2010-2019 many of them are. I do wonder whether there’s some kind of systemic change in the dataset which is creating most of the observed change in the correlation.
    The Blair and Brown years do seem to have created a lot more working class people.

    Social mobility.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Andy_JS said:

    Young people have always voted Labour. Maybe it's a bit more pronounced now than it used to be but it isn't huge news.

    It would be interesting to split between students/graduates and non-students/graduates.
    A slight overstarement. Not all_ young people vote Labour.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    Laura K said the other day that NM would go to the Lords and become Leader there. As for her vacated ministry, do we really need a "culture secretary" in the cabinet? Someone to speak up for artists, writers and actors when major decisions are taken? The Arts Minister used to be a minor factotum - a Gilbert and Sullivan invention if ever there was one. I'm not sure we need someone to speak up for the Duke of Lancaster either. And what oh what happened to the Lord Privy Seal?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Phil said:


    Typical journalist -- the fit does not look anything like the data in the top plots.

    The FT is statistically illiterate (like all organisations run by Arts & Humanities graduates).

    If you ask them nicely they’ll probably supply you with the raw data & you can run your own statistical analysis. Personally I suspect their statistical analysis is fine.

    What does concern me about those plots is that in the 1997-2005 data it seems that almost no constituencies are > 30% working class, whereas in 2010-2019 many of them are. I do wonder whether there’s some kind of systemic change in the dataset which is creating most of the observed change in the correlation.
    Good point regarding the dataset.

    If the statistical analysis of the data is sloppy, then probably the data itself has been obtained by sloppy calculations as well.

    So, it all needs re-doing by someone competent.
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    No as you say that has passed me
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    edited December 2019
    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    HYUFD said:

    The Tories vote is now even slightly stronger with skilled working class
    C2s than middle class ABC1s now, with Labour's core reduced to the semi skilled and unskilled working class and the unemployed

    Unfortunately for Labour, semi-skilled, unskilled and unemployed don't vote. I think they need a plan B.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    Laura K said the other day that NM would go to the Lords and become Leader there. As for her vacated ministry, do we really need a "culture secretary" in the cabinet? Someone to speak up for artists, writers and actors when major decisions are taken? The Arts Minister used to be a minor factotum - a Gilbert and Sullivan invention if ever there was one. I'm not sure we need someone to speak up for the Duke of Lancaster either. And what oh what happened to the Lord Privy Seal?
    We need someone to sort the BBC out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited December 2019

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    It's amazing as youd assume anywhere retained in 2015 must be the clingiest of LD seats, as close to heartland as they get. But no. 4 were lost in 2017 I think, and two more.

    Worryingly they didnt get them back in 2019 - probably gone forever now.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    Laura K said the other day that NM would go to the Lords and become Leader there. As for her vacated ministry, do we really need a "culture secretary" in the cabinet? Someone to speak up for artists, writers and actors when major decisions are taken? The Arts Minister used to be a minor factotum - a Gilbert and Sullivan invention if ever there was one. I'm not sure we need someone to speak up for the Duke of Lancaster either. And what oh what happened to the Lord Privy Seal?
    We need someone to sort the BBC out.
    Laura K is really good. The BBC has its faults, but she isn't one of them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,002
    edited December 2019

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    For someone who said she would refuse to serve in a government led by Boris Johnson, Morgan's sure done a lotta serving in a government led by Boris Johnson. It's that level of high minded self sacrifice that will get Brexit done.
  • maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    Laura K said the other day that NM would go to the Lords and become Leader there. As for her vacated ministry, do we really need a "culture secretary" in the cabinet? Someone to speak up for artists, writers and actors when major decisions are taken? The Arts Minister used to be a minor factotum - a Gilbert and Sullivan invention if ever there was one. I'm not sure we need someone to speak up for the Duke of Lancaster either. And what oh what happened to the Lord Privy Seal?
    We need someone to sort the BBC out.
    They're doing just fine as it is. Why else are Labour so focused on the urgent needs of the London twitterati and no-one else? The BBC have played a crucial role in Labour's decline. Long may it continue.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    No as you say that has passed me
    OK, an explanation is in order...

    In Loughborough there is a road called Forest Road. The most 'desirable' housing is perceived to be in the vicinity of Forest Road. Estate Agents' adverts are emblazoned with the phrase "Forest Side" to demonstrate the desirability of the property.

    Certain types are therefore keen to make it known to anyone within earshot that they live on the Forest Side. I am equating Nicky Morgan with that type.

    There.
  • kle4 said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    It's amazing as youd assume anywhere retained in 2015 must be the clingiest of LD seats, as close to heartland as they get. But no. 4 were lost in 2017 I think, and two more.

    Worryingly they didnt get them back in 2019 - probably gone forever now.
    I can see the LibDems dropping hard in Carshalton and Norfolk North with the loss of incumbency and personal votes.

    Of the two surviving seats Westmoreland was almost lost in 2017 and is heavily dependent on Farron's personal vote.

    Which leaves Orkney & Shetland.
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    No as you say that has passed me
    OK, an explanation is in order...

    In Loughborough there is a road called Forest Road. The most 'desirable' housing is perceived to be in the vicinity of Forest Road. Estate Agents' adverts are emblazoned with the phrase "Forest Side" to demonstrate the desirability of the property.

    Certain types are therefore keen to make it known to anyone within earshot that they live on the Forest Side. I am equating Nicky Morgan with that type.

    There.
    Thank you for that
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
  • Nicky Morgan = Unelected Has-Been :)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Phil said:


    Typical journalist -- the fit does not look anything like the data in the top plots.

    The FT is statistically illiterate (like all organisations run by Arts & Humanities graduates).

    If you ask them nicely they’ll probably supply you with the raw data & you can run your own statistical analysis. Personally I suspect their statistical analysis is fine.

    What does concern me about those plots is that in the 1997-2005 data it seems that almost no constituencies are > 30% working class, whereas in 2010-2019 many of them are. I do wonder whether there’s some kind of systemic change in the dataset which is creating most of the observed change in the correlation.
    Good point regarding the dataset.

    If the statistical analysis of the data is sloppy, then probably the data itself has been obtained by sloppy calculations as well.

    So, it all needs re-doing by someone competent.
    /boggle
  • Photo of the losers of the 2024 election:

    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1206657111276638213
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    How in the same tweet can he say that we are lost to the far left and have no ideological direction?

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    The Tories vote is now even slightly stronger with skilled working class
    C2s than middle class ABC1s now, with Labour's core reduced to the semi skilled and unskilled working class and the unemployed

    More specifically, I imagine that your main groups of Labour voters are now:

    *Workers in sectors that are still heavily unionised (e.g. schools, NHS, railways)
    *Staff and students in higher education
    *The very poor (those of working age who are substantially or entirely dependent on social security)
    *Frustrated trapped renters (i.e. people on good incomes who nonetheless can't afford a mortgage in their area, and either can't or won't get around the problem by commuting)
    *BAME voters (with the caveat that the Jewish Labour vote has disintegrated for obvious reasons, and the Conservatives may be making some progress in courting the votes of Britons of Indian heritage)

    It's a substantial coalition but, except in the poorest parts of the country (e.g. the South Wales valleys and other pockets of the old coalfields,) its strength wanes rapidly outwith the urban cores and the university towns, as can be seen from the current state of the electoral map.
  • Omnium said:

    maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    Laura K said the other day that NM would go to the Lords and become Leader there. As for her vacated ministry, do we really need a "culture secretary" in the cabinet? Someone to speak up for artists, writers and actors when major decisions are taken? The Arts Minister used to be a minor factotum - a Gilbert and Sullivan invention if ever there was one. I'm not sure we need someone to speak up for the Duke of Lancaster either. And what oh what happened to the Lord Privy Seal?
    We need someone to sort the BBC out.
    Laura K is really good. The BBC has its faults, but she isn't one of them.
    TV Poll Tax?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    No as you say that has passed me
    OK, an explanation is in order...

    In Loughborough there is a road called Forest Road. The most 'desirable' housing is perceived to be in the vicinity of Forest Road. Estate Agents' adverts are emblazoned with the phrase "Forest Side" to demonstrate the desirability of the property.

    Certain types are therefore keen to make it known to anyone within earshot that they live on the Forest Side. I am equating Nicky Morgan with that type.

    There.
    Thank you for that
    Not worth the wait, was it?
  • Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Would you like to give the vote and seat changes between 2015 and 2017.
  • kle4 said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost..

    It's amazing as youd assume anywhere retained in 2015 must be the clingiest of LD seats, as close to heartland as they get. But no. 4 were lost in 2017 I think, and two more..
    This was my reaction to Swinson's resignation speech, which (like her 2019 campaign) shafted a significant group of 2015 Lib Dem voters, who one might also have assumed to be pretty hard-core as Lib Dem voters go!


    Gosh it was a dragging whine wasn't it? I felt my remaining sympathy being sucked out of me.

    Nor introspection, and viewing the Lib Dems - with centuries of history behind them!! - as pretty much just a messianic vehicle for Stop Brexit.

    This really shouldn't be news for the Lib Dem leadership because they have all seen this data, their analysts and strategists must have pored over it, but think back to the dark days of 2015 when the party suffered their cataclysmic post-coalition crash. They lost 66% of their vote and all but 8 of their 49 MPs.

    Those voters who stuck with the Lib Dems in 2015 were by definition among the very loyalest supporters the party had, and in 2016 around one third of them voted for Leave. Ashcroft's polling in "Well, you did ask" reckons 31%, yougov reckon 30% here. Even among the 2017 Lib Dem voting coalition, 20% were Leave voters. If you make it The Remain Party then you cutting links with hundreds of thousands of people who vote for you despite disagreeing with what's become one of your core principles. There must be something else in the party than that one cause alone, something pretty good and deep and visceral, something connected with your great traditions, otherwise those people wouldn't keep on supporting you. And it's a single-issue cause that, at least in its current incarnation, is rapidly hurtling towards irrelevance.

    Why not explore and rediscover what those grand driving values might be, rather than hinting at one in five of your voters, even maybe one in three of your potential and previous electoral coalition you hope to build on, that you think they're under-educated racist insufficiently-diverse easily-conned idiots.

    (I admit: partly angry because I have at times in the past been a Lib Dem voter, have always been a very open-minded swing voter, and am an absolutely passionate Leaver. And if it's necessary to wave my papers at the commissar to prove my political worthiness as part of their new coalition of the liberal educated urban professionals, I've got multiple degree certificates I can shove in their face - but I don't weight my worth by them nor wrap my identity politics around them.)

  • Was there any constituency which had a majority of under 100 ?

    In 2017 there were eleven.

    Fermanagh And South Tyrone - Just 57 Votes.
    Gildernew's majority was 53 in 2001, and just 4 (yes FOUR) in 2010.
  • Whatever happens, the Labour Party have dodged a massive bullet since Chris Williamson is not available to run for leadership or deputy.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    At a guess I'd say Luffbruff was Loughborough, but I don't know who lady Morgan is. Enlighten me.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    No mention of Boris's friend and school chum Zac in this mini-reshuffle.

    I'm half expecting Zac to get a peerage and continue as environment secretary.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Apologies if I missed it but did you do a post mortem on your model ?
  • viewcode said:

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    At a guess I'd say Luffbruff was Loughborough, but I don't know who lady Morgan is. Enlighten me.
    Nicky Morgan = Unelected Has-Been :)
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Would you like to give the vote and seat changes between 2015 and 2017.
    Why?
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    Loughborough Junction station is not in Loughborough :)
  • Was there any constituency which had a majority of under 100 ?

    In 2017 there were eleven.

    Fermanagh And South Tyrone - Just 57 Votes.

    Was the constituency Jo Swinson stood in very close? I can't remember the exact figure.
    Result UK GE 19 - East Dunbartonshire

    SNP (Amy Callaghan MP) 19,672 (+3,988)
    SLD (Jo Swinson) 19,523 (-1,500)
    SCon 7,455 (-108)
    SLab 4,839 (-2,692)
    Grn 916 (new)
    Ind 221 (new)
    UKIP 208 (new)
    SFP 197 (new)

    SNP GAIN from SLD, Maj 149

    Turnout 80.3% (+1.5)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127

    Photo of the losers of the 2024 election:

    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1206657111276638213

    Wasn't the one on the right in the IT crowd?
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    No as you say that has passed me
    OK, an explanation is in order...

    In Loughborough there is a road called Forest Road. The most 'desirable' housing is perceived to be in the vicinity of Forest Road. Estate Agents' adverts are emblazoned with the phrase "Forest Side" to demonstrate the desirability of the property.

    Certain types are therefore keen to make it known to anyone within earshot that they live on the Forest Side. I am equating Nicky Morgan with that type.

    There.
    Thank you for that
    Not worth the wait, was it?
    Interesting trivia
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    How in the same tweet can he say that we are lost to the far left and have no ideological direction?

    Leadership lost to far left but party as a whole just no ideological direction?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    viewcode said:

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    At a guess I'd say Luffbruff was Loughborough, but I don't know who lady Morgan is. Enlighten me.
    Ah, I see: I have read your explanation. No need to further respond.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    Loughborough Junction station is not in Loughborough :)
    You can say that about any station with Junction in the name.

  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Would you like to give the vote and seat changes between 2015 and 2017.
    Why?
    Because the Tories gained 5.5% of the vote but lost 13 seats, whereas the LDs lost 0.5% but gained 4 seats.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Barnesian said:

    No mention of Boris's friend and school chum Zac in this mini-reshuffle.

    I'm half expecting Zac to get a peerage and continue as environment secretary.

    I didnt know he was in the first place.
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    Loughborough Junction station is not in Loughborough :)
    You can say that about any station with Junction in the name.

    It's in South London, nowhere near Leicestershire.
  • eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    Loughborough Junction station is not in Loughborough :)
    You can say that about any station with Junction in the name.

    Llandudno Junction is in Llandudno Junction
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253

    kle4 said:

    I'm told here in Corbynland that hundreds of protestors have been arrested outside downing street but that you wont see that on the BBC. I've tentatively offered if that has happened the news couldn't avoid it if they wanted to. So have the protests happened? Genuine question.

    The SWP were running around central London with placards on Friday night, being annoying and making work for The Met, which I saw via journalists on Twitter.
    I believe it is hundreds of protestors of whom two were arrested.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    It's amazing as youd assume anywhere retained in 2015 must be the clingiest of LD seats, as close to heartland as they get. But no. 4 were lost in 2017 I think, and two more.

    Worryingly they didnt get them back in 2019 - probably gone forever now.
    I can see the LibDems dropping hard in Carshalton and Norfolk North with the loss of incumbency and personal votes.

    Of the two surviving seats Westmoreland was almost lost in 2017 and is heavily dependent on Farron's personal vote.

    Which leaves Orkney & Shetland.
    North Norfolk was very much one of those old Liberal-style isolated fiefdoms, won and held through the hard work on an incumbent, but where the Yellow vote quickly returned to background noise once the incumbent retired or was beaten. See also the Isle of Ely/NE Cambs under Clement Freud.

    One can easily imagine Westmorland and Lonsdale going the same way, and that's the very last Lib Dem seat left between Oxford and Edinburgh. One can easily imagine that what's left of the Liberal Democrats could turn, in effect, into two semi-autonomous regional parties: one for Scottish Unionists who can't bear to vote Tory, the other for rich, wet social liberals in London and the Home Counties who find Labour too left-wing.

  • Gosh it was a dragging whine wasn't it? I felt my remaining sympathy being sucked out of me.

    Nor introspection, and viewing the Lib Dems - with centuries of history behind them!! - as pretty much just a messianic vehicle for Stop Brexit.

    This really shouldn't be news for the Lib Dem leadership because they have all seen this data, their analysts and strategists must have pored over it, but think back to the dark days of 2015 when the party suffered their cataclysmic post-coalition crash. They lost 66% of their vote and all but 8 of their 49 MPs.

    Those voters who stuck with the Lib Dems in 2015 were by definition among the very loyalest supporters the party had, and in 2016 around one third of them voted for Leave. Ashcroft's polling in "Well, you did ask" reckons 31%, yougov reckon 30% here. Even among the 2017 Lib Dem voting coalition, 20% were Leave voters. If you make it The Remain Party then you cutting links with hundreds of thousands of people who vote for you despite disagreeing with what's become one of your core principles. There must be something else in the party than that one cause alone, something pretty good and deep and visceral, something connected with your great traditions, otherwise those people wouldn't keep on supporting you. And it's a single-issue cause that, at least in its current incarnation, is rapidly hurtling towards irrelevance.

    Why not explore and rediscover what those grand driving values might be, rather than hinting at one in five of your voters, even maybe one in three of your potential and previous electoral coalition you hope to build on, that you think they're under-educated racist insufficiently-diverse easily-conned idiots.

    (I admit: partly angry because I have at times in the past been a Lib Dem voter, have always been a very open-minded swing voter, and am an absolutely passionate Leaver. And if it's necessary to wave my papers at the commissar to prove my political worthiness as part of their new coalition of the liberal educated urban professionals, I've got multiple degree certificates I can shove in their face - but I don't weight my worth by them nor wrap my identity politics around them.)

    I suspect that Revoke cost the LibDems Carshalton, Hallam, Wimbledon and Dunbartonshire East plus maybe a few more.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    Loughborough Junction station is not in Loughborough :)
    You can say that about any station with Junction in the name.

    Llandudno Junction is in Llandudno Junction
    While that is undoubtedly true, it isn't in Llandudno.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    PaulM said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Apologies if I missed it but did you do a post mortem on your model ?
    Yes. The weakness was that I assumed the Leave/Remain effect was "baked in" the base 2017 results on which my model depended. But it was a much more dominant feature this time and I should have separately allowed for it.

    If I assume that every 1% above 50% Leave in any constituency gives an increase in Tory share of 0.4% (and a reduction of the same amount in Labour share) and the reverse effect in Remain constituencies, then the result is a Tory majority of 82 seats.

    That is just fitting after the event and not much good for betting purposes. But I should have made some allowance. Some people were building models that were entirely based on Leave/Remain % .
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Barnesian said:

    No mention of Boris's friend and school chum Zac in this mini-reshuffle.

    I'm half expecting Zac to get a peerage and continue as environment secretary.

    Yes, I've been suspecting that too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Fishing said:

    One correlation I think would work particularly well in England and Wales is Tory majority by constituency and distance from constituency to the nearest former coalmine or major university.

    What correlation are you expecting?

    North East Somerset is an interesting example - it's on top of a former coalfield and encircles Bath University.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,836

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost..

    It's amazing as youd assume anywhere retained in 2015 must be the clingiest of LD seats, as close to heartland as they get. But no. 4 were lost in 2017 I think, and two more..


    Gosh it was a dragging whine wasn't it? I felt my remaining sympathy being sucked out of me.

    Nor introspection, and viewing the Lib Dems - with centuries of history behind them!! - as pretty much just a messianic vehicle for Stop Brexit.

    ... back to the dark days of 2015 when the party suffered their cataclysmic post-coalition crash. They lost 66% of their vote and all but 8 of their 49 MPs.

    Those voters who stuck with the Lib Dems in 2015 were by definition among the very loyalest supporters the party had, and in 2016 around one third of them voted for Leave. Ashcroft's polling in "Well, you did ask" reckons 31%, yougov reckon 30% here. Even among the 2017 Lib Dem voting coalition, 20% were Leave voters. If you make it The Remain Party then you cutting links with hundreds of thousands of people who vote for you despite disagreeing with what's become one of your core principles. There must be something else in the party than that one cause alone, something pretty good and deep and visceral, something connected with your great traditions, otherwise those people wouldn't keep on supporting you. And it's a single-issue cause that, at least in its current incarnation, is rapidly hurtling towards irrelevance.

    Why not explore and rediscover what those grand driving values might be, rather than hinting at one in five of your voters, even maybe one in three of your potential and previous electoral coalition you hope to build on, that you think they're under-educated racist insufficiently-diverse easily-conned idiots.

    (I admit: partly angry because I have at times in the past been a Lib Dem voter, have always been a very open-minded swing voter, and am an absolutely passionate Leaver. And if it's necessary to wave my papers at the commissar to prove my political worthiness as part of their new coalition of the liberal educated urban professionals, I've got multiple degree certificates I can shove in their face - but I don't weight my worth by them nor wrap my identity politics around them.)

    Good post, with which I agree.
    I also wonder what the effect of the word 'Bollocks' was. We already knew the Lib Dems were committed to Remain - there's little upside to being repeatedly crude about it. But even in 2019 there's a not-insignificant number of voters who take a dim view of that sort of language.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153


    Gosh it was a dragging whine wasn't it? I felt my remaining sympathy being sucked out of me.

    Nor introspection, and viewing the Lib Dems - with centuries of history behind them!! - as pretty much just a messianic vehicle for Stop Brexit.

    This really shouldn't be news for the Lib Dem leadership because they have all seen this data, their analysts and strategists must have pored over it, but think back to the dark days of 2015 when the party suffered their cataclysmic post-coalition crash. They lost 66% of their vote and all but 8 of their 49 MPs.

    Those voters who stuck with the Lib Dems in 2015 were by definition among the very loyalest supporters the party had, and in 2016 around one third of them voted for Leave. Ashcroft's polling in "Well, you did ask" reckons 31%, yougov reckon 30% here. Even among the 2017 Lib Dem voting coalition, 20% were Leave voters. If you make it The Remain Party then you cutting links with hundreds of thousands of people who vote for you despite disagreeing with what's become one of your core principles. There must be something else in the party than that one cause alone, something pretty good and deep and visceral, something connected with your great traditions, otherwise those people wouldn't keep on supporting you. And it's a single-issue cause that, at least in its current incarnation, is rapidly hurtling towards irrelevance.

    Why not explore and rediscover what those grand driving values might be, rather than hinting at one in five of your voters, even maybe one in three of your potential and previous electoral coalition you hope to build on, that you think they're under-educated racist insufficiently-diverse easily-conned idiots.

    (I admit: partly angry because I have at times in the past been a Lib Dem voter, have always been a very open-minded swing voter, and am an absolutely passionate Leaver. And if it's necessary to wave my papers at the commissar to prove my political worthiness as part of their new coalition of the liberal educated urban professionals, I've got multiple degree certificates I can shove in their face - but I don't weight my worth by them nor wrap my identity politics around them.)

    I suspect that Revoke cost the LibDems Carshalton, Hallam, Wimbledon and Dunbartonshire East plus maybe a few more.
    There seemed nothing behind that policy except that as Labour inched closer to remain the LDs felt it necessary to play a game of 'remainier than thou' and escalate their stance.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    eek said:

    Sorry, but Nicky Morgan. What's all that about?

    Could she be there until the next reshuffle in return for a peerage? After all it takes a while to find a new job and getting money is nice while looking.
    It is temporary until the major cabinet re-organisation in early february after we have left the EU

    She was going to receive a peerage anyway
    Lady Morgan of The Forest Side?

    Sorry, if you don't know Luffbruff you won't get the joke.
    Loughborough Junction station is not in Loughborough :)
    You can say that about any station with Junction in the name.

    It's in South London, nowhere near Leicestershire.
    Dr P, as a fellow owner of a Baker, I am fully conversant with railway geography.

    And I'm just trolling you!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Would you like to give the vote and seat changes between 2015 and 2017.
    Why?
    Because the Tories gained 5.5% of the vote but lost 13 seats, whereas the LDs lost 0.5% but gained 4 seats.
    Again weird. FPTP is not fit for purpose.
  • https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1206469499433734144

    Assuming this is genuine, this is the equivalent of the Trump supporters who hate Obama Care, but are worried they will lose their affordable health care.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Barnesian said:

    PaulM said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Apologies if I missed it but did you do a post mortem on your model ?
    Yes. The weakness was that I assumed the Leave/Remain effect was "baked in" the base 2017 results on which my model depended. But it was a much more dominant feature this time and I should have separately allowed for it.

    If I assume that every 1% above 50% Leave in any constituency gives an increase in Tory share of 0.4% (and a reduction of the same amount in Labour share) and the reverse effect in Remain constituencies, then the result is a Tory majority of 82 seats.

    That is just fitting after the event and not much good for betting purposes. But I should have made some allowance. Some people were building models that were entirely based on Leave/Remain % .
    Well done on having a go anyway. It seems safe to assume that the Leave/Remain effect will not figure in the 2024 election.
  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Anyone else noticed that of the eight seats won by the LibDems in 2015 six have now been lost:

    Carshalton
    Ceredigion
    Leeds NW
    Norfolk N
    Sheffield Hallam
    Southport

    And in Ceredigion, Leeds NW and Southport the LibDems are now in a very poor third place.

    Yet the LibDems gained 1.3m more votes than 2017 (and lost 1 seat).
    The Tories gained just 0.3m more votes than 2017 (yet gained 48 extra seats).
    Weird.
    Would you like to give the vote and seat changes between 2015 and 2017.
    Why?
    Because didn't the opposite happen in 2017 ?

    More Conservative votes but fewer Conservative seats while fewer LibDem votes but more LibDem seats.

    These things can happen but the idea that I started is I think interesting ie that there doesn't seem to be any bedrock of LibDem support but more of a sprouting up of support here and there and so is always vulnerable.
  • Fishing said:

    One correlation I think would work particularly well in England and Wales is Tory majority by constituency and distance from constituency to the nearest former coalmine or major university.

    What correlation are you expecting?

    North East Somerset is an interesting example - it's on top of a former coalfield and encircles Bath University.
    Newcastle under Lyme contains both Keele University and Silverdale colliery.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,836

    Photo of the losers of the 2024 election:

    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1206657111276638213

    Could he not have found more, er, pleasant pictures of his favoured candidates? "Vote for this angry woman and her angry friend."
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605

    Barnesian said:

    No mention of Boris's friend and school chum Zac in this mini-reshuffle.

    I'm half expecting Zac to get a peerage and continue as environment secretary.

    Yes, I've been suspecting that too.
    If Zac gets a peerage and is out of contention in Richmond Park, I can see Sarah Olney eventually becoming Mother of the House in 2054 after a long and illustrious career.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited December 2019
    Is Thornberry really going to take Flint to court?

    Is Thornberry trying to win the Jacob Rees-Mogg Award for the Most Disliked Politician in the country?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695


    Gosh it was a dragging whine wasn't it? I felt my remaining sympathy being sucked out of me.

    Nor introspection, and viewing the Lib Dems - with centuries of history behind them!! - as pretty much just a messianic vehicle for Stop Brexit.

    This really shouldn't be news for the Lib Dem leadership because they have all seen this data, their analysts and strategists must have pored over it, but think back to the dark days of 2015 when the party suffered their cataclysmic post-coalition crash. They lost 66% of their vote and all but 8 of their 49 MPs.

    Those voters who stuck with the Lib Dems in 2015 were by definition among the very loyalest supporters the party had, and in 2016 around one third of them voted for Leave. Ashcroft's polling in "Well, you did ask" reckons 31%, yougov reckon 30% here. Even among the 2017 Lib Dem voting coalition, 20% were Leave voters. If you make it The Remain Party then you cutting links with hundreds of thousands of people who vote for you despite disagreeing with what's become one of your core principles. There must be something else in the party than that one cause alone, something pretty good and deep and visceral, something connected with your great traditions, otherwise those people wouldn't keep on supporting you. And it's a single-issue cause that, at least in its current incarnation, is rapidly hurtling towards irrelevance.

    Why not explore and rediscover what those grand driving values might be, rather than hinting at one in five of your voters, even maybe one in three of your potential and previous electoral coalition you hope to build on, that you think they're under-educated racist insufficiently-diverse easily-conned idiots.

    (I admit: partly angry because I have at times in the past been a Lib Dem voter, have always been a very open-minded swing voter, and am an absolutely passionate Leaver. And if it's necessary to wave my papers at the commissar to prove my political worthiness as part of their new coalition of the liberal educated urban professionals, I've got multiple degree certificates I can shove in their face - but I don't weight my worth by them nor wrap my identity politics around them.)

    I suspect that Revoke cost the LibDems Carshalton, Hallam, Wimbledon and Dunbartonshire East plus maybe a few more.
    + Eastbourne
This discussion has been closed.