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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    edited December 2019
    EPG said:

    The decline and fall of the Office of National Statistics...

    [several citations needed]

  • nichomar said:

    One of the best ways to assist the north is to move vast swaths of government out of London into these areas. I hope Boris commits to relocating thousands of London jobs away from the south

    Maybe you should rename yourself to ILoveBoris
    No

    I love the people of the north who have been under the yoke of London and the metropolitan elite for far too long

    No more - the people have spoken and rediscovered their mojo and in the process delivered the 'coup de grace' on a labour party unfit for government now or anytime soon
    27 of the last 40 years have been under a Tory government so whilst the ‘north’ rightly feels it’s been neglected it’s not entirely the fault of the Labour Party. The fact that you had a labour MP for the last x years and nothing changed is not entirely their fault. We can judge this new so called northern focused Tory party in two years time but the evidence of the previous 27 years of Tory rule showed otherwise. I personally reserve judgement and take the rhetoric as just that only time will tell.
    Actually that is fair comment.

    But the conservative party post GE 2019 is nothing like the previous conservative party
    The Conservative Party is always the Conservative Party. If they now have a load of MPs who now have more day to day contact with the kind of people who the Tories usually shit all over then hopefully they might become slightly less obnoxious, but I am not holding my breath.
    If they do succeed labour will go the same way as they have in Scotland
  • Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
  • First world problems: just failed at online Christmas shopping because all the collection and delivery slots are fully booked. It will have to be ordinary shopping, just before Christmas.
  • Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,837
    If Labour wants to demonstrate its commitment to the non-Metropolitan bits of the country, it could do a lot woese than go into the next election with a commitment to move the capital. I propose Crewe - excellent transport links, connections to Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham for the spouse-getting-a-job issue, yet firmly in Leaverstan. Neither Lamcashire nir Yorkshire; both Midlands and North.
  • IshmaelZ said:



    IshmaelZ said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    Well - arguably if the analysis you give is correct, the situation is so bonkers that they should be given another chance?

    And why does it matter so much to you? I assume you are English? Because of the asymmetries involved, this is such a big deal to Scotland compared to England that it is surely their problem rather than yours? What satisfaction do you derive from the thought of them being involuntarily bonded to you?
    None. I wanted Scotland to go independent, I still do. I think it will be the best thing to occur for both Scotland and England.

    I'm also argumentative against bad logic. All this information was rightly out there before the referendum and those claiming otherwise [even if it suits my agenda] are talking garbage.
    Ah OK. And quite right. It just struck me as a bit "gotcha" to hold people to what they were told in the very very small print about something as hypothetical in 2014 as euref happening and going the way it went.
    It wasn't small print, it was a key argument the Scottish Government and Yes Scotland kept using. Hence why Davidson and Better Together were going against it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    The decision should be devolved to Holyrood, if they want another vote then why not. If people are fed up with the SNP they will vote them out.

    Except it won't work like that. The reaction to the No campaign winning in 2014 was the SNP tsunami in 2015.

    The Unionist vote in Scotland is hopelessly split, whereas the Nationalist vote is almost completely united. Therefore, we shall get an endless series of SNP Governments and demands for the referendum to be re-run every few years forever, until the SNP get what they want.
    Not at Holyrood where thanks to the PR top up seats 46.5% of the seats are held by Unionist parties compared to just 18.6% of the seats at Westminster being held by Unionist parties due to FPTP
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127

    EPG said:

    The decline and fall of the Office of National Statistics is instructive about what happens when entire civil service departments get moved out of London. To sum up, the talented people can't find jobs for their spouses in smaller cities dominated by low-wage work, so they find jobs elsewhere in the London area.

    Sounds like an excellent argument for ensuring ALL civil servants are moved out of London ASAP. Lets make sure the entire civil service knows that the only way their spouses and loved ones in smaller cities will find good work is ensuring the country is built for good work in all cities and not just where they are in London.
    Do I really have to go thru this again? For the last twenty years and possibly before that, the Civil Service *has* been moving people out of London. Newport and Leeds being prime examples. This has been going on for so long it's a plot-point in "Yes Prime Minister" for pity's sake. Google "the Government Hubs scheme".

    https://www.businessleader.co.uk/legal-general-acquires-quarry-house-in-leeds-for-243m/73558/
    https://quarterly.blog.gov.uk/2018/10/16/modernising-the-government-estate-a-transformation-strategy/
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-estate-strategy-2018
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    EPG said:

    The decline and fall of the Office of National Statistics is instructive about what happens when entire civil service departments get moved out of London. To sum up, the talented people can't find jobs for their spouses in smaller cities dominated by low-wage work, so they find jobs elsewhere in the London area.

    Sounds like an excellent argument for ensuring ALL civil servants are moved out of London ASAP. Lets make sure the entire civil service knows that the only way their spouses and loved ones in smaller cities will find good work is ensuring the country is built for good work in all cities and not just where they are in London.
    Ok Corbyn, but in no country has the government succeeded in forcing jobs to be distributed in that way. Essentially because young skilled workers have the outside options of New York etc.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    One of the best ways to assist the north is to move vast swaths of government out of London into these areas. I hope Boris commits to relocating thousands of London jobs away from the south

    Maybe you should rename yourself to ILoveBoris
    No

    I love the people of the north who have been under the yoke of London and the metropolitan elite for far too long

    No more - the people have spoken and rediscovered their mojo and in the process delivered the 'coup de grace' on a labour party unfit for government now or anytime soon
    27 of the last 40 years have been under a Tory government so whilst the ‘north’ rightly feels it’s been neglected it’s not entirely the fault of the Labour Party. The fact that you had a labour MP for the last x years and nothing changed is not entirely their fault. We can judge this new so called northern focused Tory party in two years time but the evidence of the previous 27 years of Tory rule showed otherwise. I personally reserve judgement and take the rhetoric as just that only time will tell.
    Actually that is fair comment.

    But the conservative party post GE 2019 is nothing like the previous conservative party
    We don’t know anything yet about what Johnson conservatives will do, we think we know based on what they said but it’s far to early to make any form of judgement. What they do is own everything from now on and they have an awful lot of work to do like trying to replicate the 70+ FTA which need renegotiating, the small matter of the on going relationship with the EU investing the 350M a week into the NHS, ensuring we are no worse off than if we had stayed in, ensuring UK citizens in the EU are secure and one or two other minor things so let’s wait and see.
    Strange isn't it? The name 'Liam Fox' feels like a vague memory from some distant age.
    Try these ones. William Hague. Philip Hammond. Weird, isn't it... ?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    MaxPB said:

    Have to hand it to BBC and ITV they bloody smashed it with the quality of coverage and guests.

    This is kind of a thing. Most of the people here bang on about how the BBC is a terribly biased lefty organisation. But what election coverage and political documentaries have we been watching this year? BBC.

  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    viewcode said:

    EPG said:

    The decline and fall of the Office of National Statistics...

    [several citations needed]

    That's what they keep having to say to the ONS...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    On the subject of the NHS. I’m due to have my ileostomy removed and ‘reconnected’ on the 27th December so I’ll be in hospital over new year. Fingers crossed it doesn’t get cancelled...

    All the very best for your treatment Gallowgate.

    Not good to be in hospital over the new year but health always comes first

    And enjoy your christmas
    Thanks Big G. I actually wanted it over new year as it fitted in with the university holidays as well as hopefully setting up 2020 on the right track.
  • viewcode said:

    EPG said:

    The decline and fall of the Office of National Statistics is instructive about what happens when entire civil service departments get moved out of London. To sum up, the talented people can't find jobs for their spouses in smaller cities dominated by low-wage work, so they find jobs elsewhere in the London area.

    Sounds like an excellent argument for ensuring ALL civil servants are moved out of London ASAP. Lets make sure the entire civil service knows that the only way their spouses and loved ones in smaller cities will find good work is ensuring the country is built for good work in all cities and not just where they are in London.
    Do I really have to go thru this again? For the last twenty years and possibly before that, the Civil Service *has* been moving people out of London. Newport and Leeds being prime examples. This has been going on for so long it's a plot-point in "Yes Prime Minister" for pity's sake. Google "the Government Hubs scheme".

    https://www.businessleader.co.uk/legal-general-acquires-quarry-house-in-leeds-for-243m/73558/
    https://quarterly.blog.gov.uk/2018/10/16/modernising-the-government-estate-a-transformation-strategy/
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-estate-strategy-2018
    Did you see the word I capitalised to give emphasis? All civil servants can't have been moved out yet if more are still being moved out.

    Its good that some have been moved out, its a good start. The program should be escalated.
  • HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
  • viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to hand it to BBC and ITV they bloody smashed it with the quality of coverage and guests.

    This is kind of a thing. Most of the people here bang on about how the BBC is a terribly biased lefty organisation. But what election coverage and political documentaries have we been watching this year? BBC.

    I think someone nailed it by saying its neither biased left nor right wing but has quite a few issues where presenters absolutely have to conform. Zero tolerance of sexism, racism, homophobia, through to necessity to wear a poppy for two weeks before remembrance day.
  • Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    I have a theory as to why that is, I'm trying to put together to submit as a possible article in the future if TSH/OGH like it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    Brexit derangement syndrome. Nasty case.
  • On the subject of the NHS. I’m due to have my ileostomy removed and ‘reconnected’ on the 27th December so I’ll be in hospital over new year. Fingers crossed it doesn’t get cancelled...

    All the very best for your treatment Gallowgate.

    Not good to be in hospital over the new year but health always comes first

    And enjoy your christmas
    Thanks Big G. I actually wanted it over new year as it fitted in with the university holidays as well as hopefully setting up 2020 on the right track.
    Yes and happy 2020 when it comes along and I really hope labour can become the party of opposition in 2020 not a protest group
  • Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,231
    Corbyn cost 25 seats. The rest was Brexit.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    It does seem like the slow demise of the LDs up to 2019 explains this one.
  • HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    Brexit derangement syndrome. Nasty case.
    Not really. I'm resigned to Brexit, it's a shit idea promoted by liars and charlatans but it can't be stopped and the English and Welsh want it so fair play to them. It's their choice and if it's as shit as I think it will be at least they can't blame anybody else. But to force another country to leave and not give them an opportunity to make a different choice is unforgivable.
    Oh, and don't be s patronising twat.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited December 2019
    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    If - a big, but not a planet-sized if - Boris can be seen to be delivering on his promises without getting caught out with his trousers round his ankles or telling some absolute whoppers, then there is scope to materially increase that vote next time.

    We undoubtedly lost votes of women of a certain age. My own theory is that many were women who had been on the wrong end of affairs and marriage break-ups - and Lothario Boris embodied all that hurt they had gone through at previou times in their lives. If he is on his best behaviour for five years....what am I saying? Boris - best beahviour - five years - same sentence?!? No, ignore me.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    I found an old bet on William Hill on Jezzas leaving date as 2020 while tidying up my accounts after the GE, 10/1. Only a tenner though.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    kinabalu said:

    Corbyn cost 25 seats. The rest was Brexit.

    So half of the Tory gains?
  • HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    Brexit derangement syndrome. Nasty case.
    Not really. I'm resigned to Brexit, it's a shit idea promoted by liars and charlatans but it can't be stopped and the English and Welsh want it so fair play to them. It's their choice and if it's as shit as I think it will be at least they can't blame anybody else. But to force another country to leave and not give them an opportunity to make a different choice is unforgivable.
    Oh, and don't be s patronising twat.
    What other country is leaving? France? Spain? Sweden?

    Scotland is not an independent country.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127

    viewcode said:

    EPG said:

    The decline and fall of the Office of National Statistics is instructive about what happens when entire civil service departments get moved out of London. To sum up, the talented people can't find jobs for their spouses in smaller cities dominated by low-wage work, so they find jobs elsewhere in the London area.

    Sounds like an excellent argument for ensuring ALL civil servants are moved out of London ASAP. Lets make sure the entire civil service knows that the only way their spouses and loved ones in smaller cities will find good work is ensuring the country is built for good work in all cities and not just where they are in London.
    Do I really have to go thru this again? For the last twenty years and possibly before that, the Civil Service *has* been moving people out of London. Newport and Leeds being prime examples. This has been going on for so long it's a plot-point in "Yes Prime Minister" for pity's sake. Google "the Government Hubs scheme".

    https://www.businessleader.co.uk/legal-general-acquires-quarry-house-in-leeds-for-243m/73558/
    https://quarterly.blog.gov.uk/2018/10/16/modernising-the-government-estate-a-transformation-strategy/
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-estate-strategy-2018
    Did you see the word I capitalised to give emphasis? All civil servants can't have been moved out yet if more are still being moved out.

    Its good that some have been moved out, its a good start. The program should be escalated.
    Absent a Star Trek transporter, there are limits on how fast you can move people.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    I have a theory as to why that is, I'm trying to put together to submit as a possible article in the future if TSH/OGH like it.
    TSE won't like it because the answer is, it's because Cameron was useless. This wasn't the victory May should have had in 2017, it's the victory Cameron should have had in 2010, so there was a landslide stuck in the system which had to come out at some stage.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Cookie said:

    If Labour wants to demonstrate its commitment to the non-Metropolitan bits of the country, it could do a lot woese than go into the next election with a commitment to move the capital. I propose Crewe - excellent transport links, connections to Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham for the spouse-getting-a-job issue, yet firmly in Leaverstan. Neither Lamcashire nir Yorkshire; both Midlands and North.

    And handy for delivering the Ministerial Bentley.....
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to hand it to BBC and ITV they bloody smashed it with the quality of coverage and guests.

    This is kind of a thing. Most of the people here bang on about how the BBC is a terribly biased lefty organisation. But what election coverage and political documentaries have we been watching this year? BBC.

    The BBC are neither left or right wing, it’s their policy of even handedness which gives some listeners the view that they are. I don’t think it works because not everything is either or, left v right. The most amusing thing I saw was when they were discussing the impact of brexit on the car industry and the only person they could wheel out in favor was Martin, the man who’s pub comes to your town and destroys the real pubs. You hear what you want to hear so I like ch4 news, I’ve never felt offended by it and feel it provides a valuable public service for those who want more in depth forensic investigation. All parties have faced damaging investigations by their team and long may they continue. In the 80’s the Sunday Times played a similar role with their insight team to whom there were no no go areas, that’s what investigative journalists should do and long may they continue
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Labour unionists will vote for Indy this time methinks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    I am happy enough with Phillips, Nandy, Kinnock or Jarvis.

    This Jess Phillips? The one with impeccable working class credentials

    The youngest of four children, Phillips is the daughter of Stewart Trainor, a teacher, and Jean Trainor (née Mackay), who was deputy chief executive of the NHS Confederation and chair of South Birmingham Mental Health Trust.[4][5][6] They were politically active: "Growing up with my father was like growing up with Jeremy Corbyn" she told Rachel Cooke of The Observer in March 2016.[7] Phillips went to King Edward VI Camp Hill School for Girls, a local grammar school.[7][8] Her childhood ambition was to become Prime Minister.[7]
    And your point is? Ambition is OK if you are Boris Johnson irrespective of whos careers he ended to get there?

    You didn't like Corbyn because he was a 'thickie' (true he was) but you don't like Jess Phillips because she is no stupid and simpering peasant. In my day you had to be clever to get to Camp Hill.
    My point is, Phillips is a massive self promoter of her working class roots. Which she obviously doesn't have. It's a massive character flaw.
    I don't know any politician who doesn't promote themselves. I think far from being a fraud, her modest background might be popular after five years of Johnson.
    It isn't a modest background, that's the point. To listen to her the 4 Yorkshire men where middle class softies compared to her background.
    Her books are quite revealing, not just about her teenage years which were certainly no finishing school, but also her work in women's refuges. She certainly has seen plenty of the dirtier sides of life. Her brother is an addict and her husband is a lift engineer.

    Not quite down the pit, but not Bedales either.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,837

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    'Our'? I thought you lived in Lewisham?
  • Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as



    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
    Not when you face the economic reality, hard border Berwick to Carlisle, RBS locating to London, RAF and naval shipbuilding contracts lost to England and Wales, and of course disruption to 60% of your trade, and fishing back under Brussels control

    The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park

    Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal

    And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties

    This is far from a winning hand for independence
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    I expect the SNP will get another majority with the Greens, they did last time. Why will next time be different.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Surely we can all agree that the one certainty about the next election is, voters who want Brexit will be less motivated in their vote choice by the issue of Brexit.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Labour unionists will vote for Indy this time methinks.
    I think that's a possibility, but at the same time there are loads of Yes/Leavers who really, really don't want to be in the EU, it could end up being a net 0 effect.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    I have a theory as to why that is, I'm trying to put together to submit as a possible article in the future if TSH/OGH like it.
    TSE won't like it because the answer is, it's because Cameron was useless. This wasn't the victory May should have had in 2017, it's the victory Cameron should have had in 2010, so there was a landslide stuck in the system which had to come out at some stage.
    That's not my theory.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as



    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
    Not when you face the economic reality, hard border Berwick to Carlisle, RBS locating to London, RAF and naval shipbuilding contracts lost to England and Wales, and of course disruption to 60% of your trade, and fishing back under Brussels control

    The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park

    Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal

    And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties

    This is far from a winning hand for independence
    It's only a hard border to Scotland, if it is a hard border to the EU surely? If it is a frictionless border with the EU, with open access to services, then it is the same to Indy Scotland

    Though I agree that hard border is likely. We will find out soon enough.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609



    What other country is leaving? France? Spain? Sweden?

    Scotland is not an independent country.

    Had a chance. Chose not to.

    I agree with Big_G - Scotland won't vote for independence unless and until the SNP has the answers to issues such as employment and currency that it could not answer last time.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Labour unionists will vote for Indy this time methinks.
    Why would they?
    They will probably just switch parties to the LD.
  • Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    'Our'? I thought you lived in Lewisham?
    Born in Scotland.
  • Foxy said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as



    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
    Not when you face the economic reality, hard border Berwick to Carlisle, RBS locating to London, RAF and naval shipbuilding contracts lost to England and Wales, and of course disruption to 60% of your trade, and fishing back under Brussels control

    The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park

    Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal

    And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties

    This is far from a winning hand for independence
    It's only a hard border to Scotland, if it is a hard border to the EU surely? If it is a frictionless border with the EU, with open access to services, then it is the same to Indy Scotland

    Though I agree that hard border is likely. We will find out soon enough.
    I am content that ' nothing will change'
  • nichomar said:

    One of the best ways to assist the north is to move vast swaths of government out of London into these areas. I hope Boris commits to relocating thousands of London jobs away from the south

    Maybe you should rename yourself to ILoveBoris
    No

    I love the people of the north who have been under the yoke of London and the metropolitan elite for far too long

    No more - the people have spoken and rediscovered their mojo and in the process delivered the 'coup de grace' on a labour party unfit for government now or anytime soon
    27 of the last 40 years have been under a Tory government so whilst the ‘north’ rightly feels it’s been neglected it’s not entirely the fault of the Labour Party. The fact that you had a labour MP for the last x years and nothing changed is not entirely their fault. We can judge this new so called northern focused Tory party in two years time but the evidence of the previous 27 years of Tory rule showed otherwise. I personally reserve judgement and take the rhetoric as just that only time will tell.
    Actually that is fair comment.

    But the conservative party post GE 2019 is nothing like the previous conservative party
    That’s my fear too. The Conservative Party used to have respect for the British Constitution and the principles of democratic scrutiny.
    …. and many more thoughtful centrist MPs (e.g. Rory Stewart)
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494



    What other country is leaving? France? Spain? Sweden?

    Scotland is not an independent country.

    Had a chance. Chose not to.

    I agree with Big_G - Scotland won't vote for independence unless and until the SNP has the answers to issues such as employment and currency that it could not answer last time.
    The issue wasn't just currency; they need to show, credibly, that Scotland can sustain the level of public services they currently enjoy without external funding.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Foxy said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    I am happy enough with Phillips, Nandy, Kinnock or Jarvis.

    This Jess Phillips? The one with impeccable working class credentials

    The youngest of four children, Phillips is the daughter of Stewart Trainor, a teacher, and Jean Trainor (née Mackay), who was deputy chief executive of the NHS Confederation and chair of South Birmingham Mental Health Trust.[4][5][6] They were politically active: "Growing up with my father was like growing up with Jeremy Corbyn" she told Rachel Cooke of The Observer in March 2016.[7] Phillips went to King Edward VI Camp Hill School for Girls, a local grammar school.[7][8] Her childhood ambition was to become Prime Minister.[7]
    And your point is? Ambition is OK if you are Boris Johnson irrespective of whos careers he ended to get there?

    You didn't like Corbyn because he was a 'thickie' (true he was) but you don't like Jess Phillips because she is no stupid and simpering peasant. In my day you had to be clever to get to Camp Hill.
    My point is, Phillips is a massive self promoter of her working class roots. Which she obviously doesn't have. It's a massive character flaw.
    I don't know any politician who doesn't promote themselves. I think far from being a fraud, her modest background might be popular after five years of Johnson.
    It isn't a modest background, that's the point. To listen to her the 4 Yorkshire men where middle class softies compared to her background.
    Her books are quite revealing, not just about her teenage years which were certainly no finishing school, but also her work in women's refuges. She certainly has seen plenty of the dirtier sides of life. Her brother is an addict and her husband is a lift engineer.

    Not quite down the pit, but not Bedales either.
    I believe she sells herself as being ordinary as opposed to 'working class'. The class system is a construct better suited to Jeremy Corbyn than Jess Phillips.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,837

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    'Our'? I thought you lived in Lewisham?
    Born in Scotland.
    Ah.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Was that J McD in the audience at SPOTY.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    spudgfsh said:



    What other country is leaving? France? Spain? Sweden?

    Scotland is not an independent country.

    Had a chance. Chose not to.

    I agree with Big_G - Scotland won't vote for independence unless and until the SNP has the answers to issues such as employment and currency that it could not answer last time.
    The issue wasn't just currency; they need to show, credibly, that Scotland can sustain the level of public services they currently enjoy without external funding.
    they cant

    and their problem gets worse when we leave the EU and they have to apply to go back under much worse terms than today
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    When Johnson bankrupts the country, who's going to clear up the mess?
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721

    Foxy said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as



    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
    Not when you face

    The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park

    Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal

    And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties

    This is far from a winning hand for independence
    It's only a hard border to Scotland, if it is a hard border to the EU surely? If it is a frictionless border with the EU, with open access to services, then it is the same to Indy Scotland

    Though I agree that hard border is likely. We will find out soon enough.
    I am content that ' nothing will change'
    I think that is denying the reality of Brexit. A frictionless border only exists in the Single Market. With less than that it is about the degree of friction involved.
  • Do we know the general ideological stance of the newly elected Tory MPs?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Congratulations by the way. You have taken a lot of flak from Boris naysayers like me on PB. You have held your ground, and your man has done what you said he would. Respect!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    It is interesting.
    That occured because of 2 things:

    They changed leaders and policies frequently even in government to unite the right.
    The opposition went the other way and fractured.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,113
    edited December 2019

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
    I think that I was most active around that time. I really don't want to go through it again.
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
    My point is the hypocrisy.

    Brexit has pretty much become at best, "it will be a bit worse than what we have now". I remember the prophetic predictions of milk and honey.

    I've accepted it's happening - but I will never accept it's a good idea.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    alex_ said:

    When Johnson bankrupts the country, who's going to clear up the mess?

    Our President Pete Buttlieg, ably assisted by State Governor, Richard Burgon.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Chameleon said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
    I think that I was most active around that time. I really don't want to go through it again.
    Indyref was at least amusing, Brexit just was boring and ill tempered.
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
    Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    alex_ said:

    When Johnson bankrupts the country, who's going to clear up the mess?

    Only the tories can sort out this financial mess which is the legacy of Gordon somebody who bankrupted the country, it was a global recession, the bastards in the EU and that awful woman with the Scottish accent who has the wrong hair do and wears dresses.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as



    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
    Not when you face

    The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park

    Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal

    And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties

    This is far from a winning hand for independence
    It's only a hard border to Scotland, if it is a hard border to the EU surely? If it is a frictionless border with the EU, with open access to services, then it is the same to Indy Scotland

    Though I agree that hard border is likely. We will find out soon enough.
    I am content that ' nothing will change'
    I think that is denying the reality of Brexit. A frictionless border only exists in the Single Market. With less than that it is about the degree of friction involved.
    Nothing will shift my believe the Scots will stay in the union
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Channel 4 now - A4 Union of South Africa, going through Scotland.
    Has there ever been a better-looking train than the A4?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have posovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    I expect the SNP will get another majority with the Greens, they did last time. Why will next time be different.
    The latest Holyrood poll earlier this month had the SNP on 46% on the constituency vote, unchanged from last time but down on the regional list vote from 41.7% to just 37% with the Greens only up from 6.6% to 8%.

    If the SNP and Greens thus lose their majority at Holyrood in 2021 they cannot claim a mandate for indyref2.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/saacor9lpe/TheTimes_191203_Scotland_VI_Results_w2_W.pdf
  • Andy_JS said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
    My point isn't whether they think it's good or bad, it's that a lot of good in-depth analysis is being posted about Scottish Independence and yet Brexit not the reverse. It's just hypocritical.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
    My point is the hypocrisy.

    Brexit has pretty much become at best, "it will be a bit worse than what we have now". I remember the prophetic predictions of milk and honey.

    I've accepted it's happening - but I will never accept it's a good idea.
    really ? There were lots of Leavers like myself on this board who said it would suppress economic performance short term. Your milk and honey argument is just yet more picking out the bits you wanted and ignoring the rest. Most of the milk and honey arguments I remember were from remainers pushing a sarcastic mantra.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Congratulations by the way. You have taken a lot of flak from Boris naysayers like me on PB. You have held your ground, and your man has done what you said he would. Respect!
    Thanks
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    I've been here, on and off, since 2006. PB is just one long circular argument :).

    Unionists and Remainers tend to make the same mistake. They can't see past the economic arguments. But that's all I want to say on the topic. I fought long and hard in the Great EUref war of 2015-2019 and I'm tired of it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
    They are rather different arguments in a post brexit landscape - which doesn't mean I relish the prospect of 2 years of them.

    What I don't get is English unionists or indeed English separatists. Surely it is up to the Scots? The only philosophy behind English unionism seems to be All of your bases are belong to London.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Congratulations by the way. You have taken a lot of flak from Boris naysayers like me on PB. You have held your ground, and your man has done what you said he would. Respect!
    I have congratulated HYUFD on several occasions since thursday

    He was correct in so many forecasts he does deserve our respect

    Though I hope he moves a bit away from the right back to where he was earlier in the year
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
    My point is the hypocrisy.

    Brexit has pretty much become at best, "it will be a bit worse than what we have now". I remember the prophetic predictions of milk and honey.

    I've accepted it's happening - but I will never accept it's a good idea.
    really ? There were lots of Leavers like myself on this board who said it would suppress economic performance short term. Your milk and honey argument is just yet more picking out the bits you wanted and ignoring the rest. Most of the milk and honey arguments I remember were from remainers pushing a sarcastic mantra.
    Perhaps you did - but there were many who said Brexit would be good for the economy.

    I recall Tweets like this one:

    https://twitter.com/daviddavismp/status/735770127564607489?lang=en

    We can't do a deal with Germany, Germany is in the EU. So much for all that "they'll be banging on Merkel's door for a deal" stuff that went on, all nonsense.

    What we got in the end was exactly what the EU offered originally, Johnson and the Tories capitulated to pretty much exactly what the EU wanted, which most people said would happen.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the uy force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Congratulations by the way. You have taken a lot of flak from Boris naysayers like me on PB. You have held your ground, and your man has done what you said he would. Respect!
    I have congratulated HYUFD on several occasions since thursday

    He was correct in so many forecasts he does deserve our respect

    Though I hope he moves a bit away from the right back to where he was earlier in the year
    Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground
  • HYUFD said:

    Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground

    Technically I think a landslide is over 100 seats, is this right?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    Andy_JS said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
    Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
  • Channel 4 now - A4 Union of South Africa, going through Scotland.
    Has there ever been a better-looking train than the A4?

    She used to steam past our classroom in Berwick on Tweed virtually every day and accounts for my love of steam to this day
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    I have a theory as to why that is, I'm trying to put together to submit as a possible article in the future if TSH/OGH like it.
    TSE won't like it because the answer is, it's because Cameron was useless. This wasn't the victory May should have had in 2017, it's the victory Cameron should have had in 2010, so there was a landslide stuck in the system which had to come out at some stage.
    Wait, so he was supposed to gain 180 seats in one go?

  • Anyway, I've accepted it, I've lost, we're leaving.

    I hope though we don't leave on No Deal and Johnson tacks to a soft Brexit that has a chance of uniting the country. Tick tock
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    Do we know the general ideological stance of the newly elected Tory MPs?

    Mostly just run of the mill.
    They are a typical collection of bankers, lawyers, consultants with some odd one outs.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as



    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others
    And so would I.

    I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
    I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
    Not when you face

    The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park

    Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal

    And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties

    This is far from a winning hand for independence
    It's only a hard border

    Though I agree that hard border is likely. We will find out soon enough.
    I am content that ' nothing will change'
    I think that is denying the reality of Brexit. A frictionless border only exists in the Single Market. With less than that it is about the degree of friction involved.
    Nothing will shift my believe the Scots will stay in the union
    In which case you should have no fear of a vote on the issue!
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
    Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
    I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on both sides claim contradictory things to further their own agenda. Cameron's EU referendum pledge was already announced long before the Scottish Referendum was held. Alex Salmond's SNP government knew this and specifically said this would be a "Consequence of Scotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the unionists said that was scaremongering. I was a Unionist in 2014, but now I would like down in front of the English tanks if they tried to block Scotland's sovereignty by force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Congratulations by the way. You have taken a lot of flak from Boris naysayers like me on PB. You have held your ground, and your man has done what you said he would. Respect!
    Thanks
    You absolutely deserve your moment in the sun, although I have doubts your man will live up to your high expectations. Well done anyway for your prediction, it was helpful.
  • On wednesday Boris will attend his first PMQ v Corbyn and it could be brutal

    Then on thursday Corbyn to respond to the QS

    Labour need to act tomorrow to depose Corbyn otherwise it will be humiliation on humiliation

    I don’t think there will be PMQs. Tuesday and Wednesday are devoted to the election of the speaker and swearing in of members.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    It's clearly impossible to respect both the result of the 2014 independence referendum in Scotland and the result of the 2016 EU referendum within Scotland.
  • It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
    Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
    I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
    If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    speedy2 said:

    Do we know the general ideological stance of the newly elected Tory MPs?

    Mostly just run of the mill.
    They are a typical collection of bankers, lawyers, consultants with some odd one outs.
    Quite a few doctors too. My noble profession contested a lot of seats:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1203241356728115200?s=19
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
    Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
    Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
    the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was true. So you are simply rewriting history. But go ahead, Scottish freedom is inevitable, as I think will become increasingly obvious after 31 January.
    cotland voting no in the referendum" on Page 60 of their "Scotland's Future" document: https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    I highlight as follows:
    Yes and as others have pointed out, the uy force.
    Given the government has ruled out indyref2 for its full 5 year term you may yet get that opportunity!
    Looking forward to it. There will be a referendum in the next five years, you can't stop it. Every Scot knows it's our right.
    There won't, 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last Thursday and that will be affirmed at Holyrood 2021 under PR, denying the SNP another majority even with the Greens
    Congratulations by the way. You have taken a lot of flak from Boris naysayers like me on PB. You have held your ground, and your man has done what you said he would. Respect!
    I have congratulated HYUFD on several occasions since thursday

    He was correct in so many forecasts he does deserve our respect

    Though I hope he moves a bit away from the right back to where he was earlier in the year
    Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground
    Good for you. We arrive on the same page at last !!!!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    I have a theory as to why that is, I'm trying to put together to submit as a possible article in the future if TSH/OGH like it.
    TSE won't like it because the answer is, it's because Cameron was useless. This wasn't the victory May should have had in 2017, it's the victory Cameron should have had in 2010, so there was a landslide stuck in the system which had to come out at some stage.
    Wait, so he was supposed to gain 180 seats in one go?

    He was supposed not to end up in a half arsed coalition against Gordon fucking Brown. Gordon Brown ffs.
  • Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
    Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be

    It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
    Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
    the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
    Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386

    HYUFD said:

    Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground

    Technically I think a landslide is over 100 seats, is this right?
    It doesn't really matter. It was large enough to call it what you like. It is hardly worth splitting hairs.

    The good news is Boris owns Brexit for good or for bad, and Corbyn is going. What is not to like?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    A thought that occirs to me: the Conservatives have, I think, now improved their vote share in six successive elections. And their absolute number of votes, I think, in five. For the last three of these they were defending the record of a party in government, either solely or in coalition. This is fairly remarkable, no?

    I have a theory as to why that is, I'm trying to put together to submit as a possible article in the future if TSH/OGH like it.
    TSE won't like it because the answer is, it's because Cameron was useless. This wasn't the victory May should have had in 2017, it's the victory Cameron should have had in 2010, so there was a landslide stuck in the system which had to come out at some stage.
    Wait, so he was supposed to gain 180 seats in one go?

    He was supposed not to end up in a half arsed coalition against Gordon fucking Brown. Gordon Brown ffs.
    Looking back on it, what saved Brown was Scotland. With recent results, he'd have done almost as badly as Corbyn.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.

    And now they choose to vote again?
    And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
    There was no Scottish EU referendum.

    The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.

    If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
    Well - arguably if the analysis you give is correct, the situation is so bonkers that they should be given another chance?

    And why does it matter so much to you? I assume you are English? Because of the asymmetries involved, this is such a big deal to Scotland compared to England that it is surely their problem rather than yours? What satisfaction do you derive from the thought of them being involuntarily bonded to you?
    It's Phil the British nationalist tonight. Don't worry, he's incapable of being consistent on this for any length of time.
This discussion has been closed.