Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground
Technically I think a landslide is over 100 seats, is this right?
It doesn't really matter. It was large enough to call it what you like. It is hardly worth splitting hairs.
The good news is Boris owns Brexit for good or for bad, and Corbyn is going. What is not to like?
Fair point - but all those people I think Johnson is going to screw over, all the poor and homeless people who I expect will continue to be ignored, I am sure won't have the pleasure of a Johnson premiership.
Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.
And now they choose to vote again?
And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
There was no Scottish EU referendum.
The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.
If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
In 2014 they were told that a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU. It turned out that the opposite was
Don't be a dingbat. Campaigners on
I highlight as follows:
Yes and as others
And so would I.
I am content for indy 2 in late 2021 and keep repeating the union will win
I really don't think it will. The EU referendum has been a wake up call for many Scots, me included, who always saw the Union as essentially benign. I feel like a mug now, the SNP, who I always despised, turned out to be right all along.
Not when you face
The border issue will make Ireland look like a walk in the park
Not to say the loss of business as companies leave the EU high corporation tax rates for the UK 19%, plus loss of benefits, especially to Scots whisky, in a UK - US trade deal
And do not forget there are many close cross border family ties
This is far from a winning hand for independence
It's only a hard border
Though I agree that hard border is likely. We will find out soon enough.
I am content that ' nothing will change'
I think that is denying the reality of Brexit. A frictionless border only exists in the Single Market. With less than that it is about the degree of friction involved.
Nothing will shift my believe the Scots will stay in the union
In which case you should have no fear of a vote on the issue!
I haven't to be honest.
However, it needs Holyrood 2021 to give the SNP the mandate
I expect the SNP will get another majority with the Greens, they did last time. Why will next time be different.
The latest Holyrood poll earlier this month had the SNP on 46% on the constituency vote, unchanged from last time but down on the regional list vote from 41.7% to just 37% with the Greens only up from 6.6% to 8%.
If the SNP and Greens thus lose their majority at Holyrood in 2021 they cannot claim a mandate for indyref2.
You and opinion polls again. Polls aren't facts. If the SNP and Greens lose their majority in 2021 they won't be able to claim a mandate I agree, but Labour are so weak that's extremely unlikely to occur. And the Lib Dems losing their Scottish election won't help that either.
The Johnson view on Indy Ref 2 is clearly untenable. If the SNP win again in 2021 (?) he's going to have to reconsider. If the Scottish people keep electing the SNP, it is their democratic right to have another referendum.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its simply the vagaries of the electoral systems. Our electoral systems allow majorities off plurality votes. Weve had lots of this for years of government with minority votes.
Referenda are different since they are based on a single issue ( allegedly ). Of the two in this decade both have gone against the will of the governments pushing them.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its simply the vagaries of the electoral systems. Our electoral systems allow majorities off plurality votes. Weve had lots of this for years of government with minority votes.
Referenda are different since they are based on a single issue ( allegedly ). Of the two in this decade both have gone against the will of the governments pushing them.
But my point is that if they keep electing Governments that want a referendum, how on Earth is it a tenable position to say no?
We've just elected Johnson by a massive majority to deliver Brexit. If I came along and said "no", you'd call me a nutter.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground
Technically I think a landslide is over 100 seats, is this right?
It doesn't really matter. It was large enough to call it what you like. It is hardly worth splitting hairs.
The good news is Boris owns Brexit for good or for bad, and Corbyn is going. What is not to like?
Fair point - but all those people I think Johnson is going to screw over, all the poor and homeless people who I expect will continue to be ignored, I am sure won't have the pleasure of a Johnson premiership.
But we will see where we are in five years.
It was the ignored who voted for him. Settle down and relax with the popcorn and enjoy the ride. It might be bumpy and it might even come off the rails. Let's hope not of the latter though.
Now is not the time to raise doubts, but between you and me, Jennifer Arcuri may well cause insurmountable problems for Boris sooner rather than later. He may ride out any criticism but the public money issue could yet prove problematic.
The Johnson view on Indy Ref 2 is clearly untenable. If the SNP win again in 2021 (?) he's going to have to reconsider. If the Scottish people keep electing the SNP, it is their democratic right to have another referendum.
It's their democratic right to keep electing an impotent SNP.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its simply the vagaries of the electoral systems. Our electoral systems allow majorities off plurality votes. Weve had lots of this for years of government with minority votes.
Referenda are different since they are based on a single issue ( allegedly ). Of the two in this decade both have gone against the will of the governments pushing them.
But my point is that if they keep electing Governments that want a referendum, how on Earth is it a tenable position to say no?
We've just elected Johnson by a massive majority to deliver Brexit. If I came along and said "no", you'd call me a nutter.
It's just hypocrisy, it really is.
No they keep electing a government that fights thir corner.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground
Technically I think a landslide is over 100 seats, is this right?
It doesn't really matter. It was large enough to call it what you like. It is hardly worth splitting hairs.
The good news is Boris owns Brexit for good or for bad, and Corbyn is going. What is not to like?
Fair point - but all those people I think Johnson is going to screw over, all the poor and homeless people who I expect will continue to be ignored, I am sure won't have the pleasure of a Johnson premiership.
But we will see where we are in five years.
It wont be five. If he thinks he will win it will be sooner.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Leave parties only had 48% of the vote so we clearly don’t have to leave on that basis😀
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its simply the vagaries of the electoral systems. Our electoral systems allow majorities off plurality votes. Weve had lots of this for years of government with minority votes.
Referenda are different since they are based on a single issue ( allegedly ). Of the two in this decade both have gone against the will of the governments pushing them.
But my point is that if they keep electing Governments that want a referendum, how on Earth is it a tenable position to say no?
We've just elected Johnson by a massive majority to deliver Brexit. If I came along and said "no", you'd call me a nutter.
It's just hypocrisy, it really is.
No they keep electing a government that fights thir corner.
With their main policy being Independence.
Are you saying therefore that Johnson wasn't elected to deliver Brexit? Let's remain in the EU then, since most people didn't vote for Johnson.
The Johnson view on Indy Ref 2 is clearly untenable. If the SNP win again in 2021 (?) he's going to have to reconsider. If the Scottish people keep electing the SNP, it is their democratic right to have another referendum.
It's their democratic right to keep electing an impotent SNP.
And if they keep electing a Government who want a referendum they surely have to be allowed it. Your subtle attack on them shows deep down you know I'm right but you won't admit it because it would make you a hypocrite.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its simply the vagaries of the electoral systems. Our electoral systems allow majorities off plurality votes. Weve had lots of this for years of government with minority votes.
Referenda are different since they are based on a single issue ( allegedly ). Of the two in this decade both have gone against the will of the governments pushing them.
But my point is that if they keep electing Governments that want a referendum, how on Earth is it a tenable position to say no?
We've just elected Johnson by a massive majority to deliver Brexit. If I came along and said "no", you'd call me a nutter.
It's just hypocrisy, it really is.
No they keep electing a government that fights thir corner.
With their main policy being Independence.
Are you saying therefore that Johnson wasn't elected to deliver Brexit? Let's remain in the EU then, since most people didn't vote for Johnson.
Hypocrisy all around.
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
This argument is pointless, it's just rank hypocrisy from this lot.
I am happy to accept we're leaving the EU as Johnson has got a majority - but these people don't have the decency or honesty to do the same the other way around. But it's fine because Tory word is final.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
The Tories won a majority at Westminster on a platform of delivering Brexit, the SNP will need to win a majority at Holyrood 2021 on a platform of indyref2
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
Thankyou, though given Thursday's Boris near landslide I think I can say I am now in the centre ground
Technically I think a landslide is over 100 seats, is this right?
Boris had as big a lead on votes over Corbyn on Thursday as Blair had over Hague in 2001 and that is termed a landslide, on seats the Tories won their biggest majority since Thatcher
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
The Tories won a majority at Westminster on a platform of delivering Brexit, the SNP will need to win a majority at Holyrood 2021 on a platform of indyref2
The Johnson view on Indy Ref 2 is clearly untenable. If the SNP win again in 2021 (?) he's going to have to reconsider. If the Scottish people keep electing the SNP, it is their democratic right to have another referendum.
It's their democratic right to keep electing an impotent SNP.
Brexiteers fighting for their own independence while denying it to others is not a good look. It's just typical Tory arrogance and will ultimately backfire because the Scots won't have it.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
This would explain the entire series of Unionist landslide election victories that have taken place in Scotland since 2014.
I expect the SNP will get another majority with the Greens, they did last time. Why will next time be different.
The latest Holyrood poll earlier this month had the SNP on 46% on the constituency vote, unchanged from last time but down on the regional list vote from 41.7% to just 37% with the Greens only up from 6.6% to 8%.
If the SNP and Greens thus lose their majority at Holyrood in 2021 they cannot claim a mandate for indyref2.
You and opinion polls again. Polls aren't facts. If the SNP and Greens lose their majority in 2021 they won't be able to claim a mandate I agree, but Labour are so weak that's extremely unlikely to occur. And the Lib Dems losing their Scottish election won't help that either.
In PR terms Labour will still get around 15% as most likely will the LDs, with the Tories on 25%+ that makes a Unionist majority
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
This argument is pointless, it's just rank hypocrisy from this lot.
I am happy to accept we're leaving the EU as Johnson has got a majority - but these people don't have the decency or honesty to do the same the other way around. But it's fine because Tory word is final.
the UK system is based on a plurality gaining a majority. Even Blair in his mega win only got 43% of the vote. Are you saying all his reforms are illegal and should be reversed ?
That is the system we work under and everyone works with it. If you don't like it vote for PR. But oddly once Labour has got to that point by being in government it will suddenly decide PR is a bad idea and FPTP is better as indeed has every UK government before it.
The Johnson view on Indy Ref 2 is clearly untenable. If the SNP win again in 2021 (?) he's going to have to reconsider. If the Scottish people keep electing the SNP, it is their democratic right to have another referendum.
Catalan nationalists won a majority in their legislature though and Spain still blocked an independence referendum
The Johnson view on Indy Ref 2 is clearly untenable. If the SNP win again in 2021 (?) he's going to have to reconsider. If the Scottish people keep electing the SNP, it is their democratic right to have another referendum.
It's their democratic right to keep electing an impotent SNP.
Brexiteers fighting for their own independence while denying it to others is not a good look. It's just typical Tory arrogance and will ultimately backfire because the Scots won't have it.
The Scots had their "once in a generation" chance - and chose not to take it.
Brexiteers had their "once in a generation" chance - and chose to take it.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
You should have taken action earlier rather than turning up here ramping and trying to deflect valid criticism of where Labour currently is.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
The Tories won a majority at Westminster on a platform of delivering Brexit, the SNP will need to win a majority at Holyrood 2021 on a platform of indyref2
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
You should have taken action earlier rather than turning up here ramping and trying to deflect valid criticism of where Labour currently is.
Oh do sod off, do you ever post anything of use to anyone?
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
You are becoming too personal and losing it
Labours demise is hurting and I can understand that
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
The Tories won a majority at Westminster on a platform of delivering Brexit, the SNP will need to win a majority at Holyrood 2021 on a platform of indyref2
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
Casuistry. Holyrood has backed a further Sindyref.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
the long termers on here had 2 years of Indyref arguments. Weve heard it all before.
I think that I was most active around that time. I really don't want to go through it again.
Hear, hear.
I think there will be two differences next time, if there is a next time.
1. It won't simply be "should Scotland be an independent country?" It will be a choice between UK and EU membership. As the latter will represent all kinds of risks and discontinuities (currency, economics, fiscal transfers, pensions, fisheries, etc) then its certainly not a slam dunk for "Indy". 2. UK Govt will, rightly, amend referendum question so that it reads something like: "Should Scotland be an independent country - and leave the United Kingdom?"
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
Mr. Hauser, the Scots voted to stay in the UK. That's not a prison. That's a choice.
And now they choose to vote again?
And the Scots voted to stay in Europe. This decision must also be recognised and respected.
There was no Scottish EU referendum.
The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK chose to leave the EU, ergo the Scots leave the EU.
If the Scots wanted to make their own decision on EU membership they should have left the UK when they had the chance.
Well - arguably if the analysis you give is correct, the situation is so bonkers that they should be given another chance?
And why does it matter so much to you? I assume you are English? Because of the asymmetries involved, this is such a big deal to Scotland compared to England that it is surely their problem rather than yours? What satisfaction do you derive from the thought of them being involuntarily bonded to you?
It's Phil the British nationalist tonight. Don't worry, he's incapable of being consistent on this for any length of time.
Not my fault you Scots turned your back on nationalism.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
You are becoming too personal and losing it
Labours demise is hurting and I can understand that
Labour is not dead yet, merely resting. Not sure yet how long for tbh.
I expect the SNP will get another majority with the Greens, they did last time. Why will next time be different.
The latest Holyrood poll earlier this month had the SNP on 46% on the constituency vote, unchanged from last time but down on the regional list vote from 41.7% to just 37% with the Greens only up from 6.6% to 8%.
If the SNP and Greens thus lose their majority at Holyrood in 2021 they cannot claim a mandate for indyref2.
You and opinion polls again. Polls aren't facts. If the SNP and Greens lose their majority in 2021 they won't be able to claim a mandate I agree, but Labour are so weak that's extremely unlikely to occur. And the Lib Dems losing their Scottish election won't help that either.
In PR terms Labour will still get around 15% as most likely will the LDs, with the Tories on 25%+ that makes a Unionist majority
No way! That's 55%, why would they get so much?
2016 the proportions on the Regional List were SCON 22.9, SLAB 19.1 and SLD 5.2
Don't forget that 4.5% of the Regional vote last time went to tiny parties.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
You are becoming too personal and losing it
Labours demise is hurting and I can understand that
Labour is not dead yet, merely resting. Not sure yet how long for tbh.
It depends how much the membership cares to save it, or how many people choose to join and save it.
My fear is that having just joined, my voice will be denied as there will be some kind of cut off date.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I have members of our family who are SNP voters but would vote for the union
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
How quickly could a referendum be held? Would it not be better to do it asap, and have the trial of the century during the unofficial campaign?
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I have members of our family who are SNP voters but would vote for the union
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
The situation isn't really that complex. The Scottish electorate rejects independence at the ballot box, then votes in another Nationalist Government whose primary aim is - you guessed it - another independence vote.
How, pray tell, is the rest of the country meant to react to this? With unbridled joy?
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I have members of our family who are SNP voters but would vote for the union
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
You have members of your family who are thick.
I've heard that as much as 1/3 of SNP voters don't want indepedndance.
The mind really boggles at the idiocy that goes on on the north of the island.
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
How quickly could a referendum be held? Would it not be better to do it asap, and have the trial of the century during the unofficial campaign?
I presume he wants Brexit to have happened, and the sky to have not fallen in, for the 2021 elections. At that stage I imagine he’ll also have an offer for fishing communities and farmers.
Ah, finally had my first real conspiracy theory from Corbynland. Apparently votes for Boris in some places dont make sense and something might have happened with the numbers, somehow to do with Peter Lilley and scottish councils using the services of Idox. They'll vote in person next time as a result .
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
The Tories won a majority at Westminster on a platform of delivering Brexit, the SNP will need to win a majority at Holyrood 2021 on a platform of indyref2
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
Casuistry. Holyrood has backed a further Sindyref.
So what, Westminster is sovereign and will determine when it can be able to declare a mandate for it
Ah, finally had my first real conspiracy theory from Corbynland. Apparently votes for Boris in some places dont make sense and something might have happened with the numbers, somehow to do with Peter Lilley and scottish councils using the services of Idox. They'll vote in person next time as a result .
"We have had senior military personnel threatening “mutiny” in the event of a Corbyn victory, threats of foreign intervention by the US government, "
"We need a return to whole worker organising, across workplaces and communities, to build an integrated movement, not based simply on a core of politicised activists but on deep roots within the class which can mobilise organised workers, in elections and on the streets, to defend their communities."
If everyone wants to discuss The West Lothian Question then I wish you all goodnight. I’m not Scottish and, although I would be sorry to see them go, it is their decision to make.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I have members of our family who are SNP voters but would vote for the union
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
You have members of your family who are thick.
I've heard that as much as 1/3 of SNP voters don't want indepedndance.
The mind really boggles at the idiocy that goes on on the north of the island.
Excuse me that is just wrong and unnecessary
Indeed these members of my family have contributed greatly to the Scots economy and their communities
Ah, finally had my first real conspiracy theory from Corbynland. Apparently votes for Boris in some places dont make sense and something might have happened with the numbers, somehow to do with Peter Lilley and scottish councils using the services of Idox. They'll vote in person next time as a result .
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I have members of our family who are SNP voters but would vote for the union
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
The situation isn't really that complex. The Scottish electorate rejects independence at the ballot box, then votes in another Nationalist Government whose primary aim is - you guessed it - another independence vote.
How, pray tell, is the rest of the country meant to react to this? With unbridled joy?
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
This argument is pointless, it's just rank hypocrisy from this lot.
I am happy to accept we're leaving the EU as Johnson has got a majority - but these people don't have the decency or honesty to do the same the other way around. But it's fine because Tory word is final.
the UK system is based on a plurality gaining a majority. Even Blair in his mega win only got 43% of the vote. Are you saying all his reforms are illegal and should be reversed ?
That is the system we work under and everyone works with it. If you don't like it vote for PR. But oddly once Labour has got to that point by being in government it will suddenly decide PR is a bad idea and FPTP is better as indeed has every UK government before it.
I accept that is our system and that Brexit will clearly go ahead. None of that alters the fact that a clear majority of people voted for parties supporting people vote or remain. We have to go ahead with Brexit but it is not a very auspicious start for such a major constitutional change that at least half the country are opposed to it even before it happens.
I expect the SNP will get another majority with the Greens, they did last time. Why will next time be different.
The latest Holyrood poll earlier this month had the SNP on 46% on the constituency vote, unchanged from last time but down on the regional list vote from 41.7% to just 37% with the Greens only up from 6.6% to 8%.
If the SNP and Greens thus lose their majority at Holyrood in 2021 they cannot claim a mandate for indyref2.
You and opinion polls again. Polls aren't facts. If the SNP and Greens lose their majority in 2021 they won't be able to claim a mandate I agree, but Labour are so weak that's extremely unlikely to occur. And the Lib Dems losing their Scottish election won't help that either.
In PR terms Labour will still get around 15% as most likely will the LDs, with the Tories on 25%+ that makes a Unionist majority
No way! That's 55%, why would they get so much?
2016 the proportions on the Regional List were SCON 22.9, SLAB 19.1 and SLD 5.2
Don't forget that 4.5% of the Regional vote last time went to tiny parties.
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
Fuckin' hell, an inability to understand basic English, let alone Scottish politics.
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
Fuckin' hell, an inability to understand basic English, let alone Scottish politics.
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
The SNP did not get a majority on that platform in 2016, it had to rely on the Greens to get that majority.
The Tories won a majority on Thursday on a manifesto commitment to block indyref2
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I have members of our family who are SNP voters but would vote for the union
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
You have members of your family who are thick.
I've heard that as much as 1/3 of SNP voters don't want indepedndance.
The mind really boggles at the idiocy that goes on on the north of the island.
Excuse me that is just wrong and unnecessary
Indeed these members of my family have contributed greatly to the Scots economy and their communities
That intolerance is just ugly
It's people like them, with their idiocy, that are causing absolute havoc north of the border. It's alright for you; you don't live here.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
This argument is pointless, it's just rank hypocrisy from this lot.
I am happy to accept we're leaving the EU as Johnson has got a majority - but these people don't have the decency or honesty to do the same the other way around. But it's fine because Tory word is final.
the UK system is based on a plurality gaining a majority. Even Blair in his mega win only got 43% of the vote. Are you saying all his reforms are illegal and should be reversed ?
That is the system we work under and everyone works with it. If you don't like it vote for PR. But oddly once Labour has got to that point by being in government it will suddenly decide PR is a bad idea and FPTP is better as indeed has every UK government before it.
I accept that is our system and that Brexit will clearly go ahead. None of that alters the fact that a clear majority of people voted for parties supporting people vote or remain. We have to go ahead with Brexit but it is not a very auspicious start for such a major constitutional change that at least half the country are opposed to it even before it happens.
So what ?
GEs are a choice of a bundled set of policies to run the country. Nobody ever gets everything that they want even the winners. People compromise and vote for a party.
A referendum is a vote on a single matter and the bundling falls apart as its a yes \ no choice.
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
Fuckin' hell, an inability to understand basic English, let alone Scottish politics.
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
Can I just clarify my position
If the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood 2021 then a referendum should take place probably in the Autumn of that year
I hope the PLP stop her from standing, she will be awful
Given the Labour nomination rules, she requires the backing of only 21 MPs and Len McCluskey to make it onto the shortlist.
So, unless Unite alight upon and decide to back an even more left-wing candidate, she'll go to the membership vote and she'll win it.
Don't forget that nearly 40% voted for Owen Smith. Being anointed by the most disastrous party Leader since Ramsey MacDonald may not be a good endorsement!
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Tories got less than 45% on Thursday, parties favouring a peoples vote or Revoke had the majority.
This argument is pointless, it's just rank hypocrisy from this lot.
I am happy to accept we're leaving the EU as Johnson has got a majority - but these people don't have the decency or honesty to do the same the other way around. But it's fine because Tory word is final.
the UK system is based on a plurality gaining a majority. Even Blair in his mega win only got 43% of the vote. Are you saying all his reforms are illegal and should be reversed ?
That is the system we work under and everyone works with it. If you don't like it vote for PR. But oddly once Labour has got to that point by being in government it will suddenly decide PR is a bad idea and FPTP is better as indeed has every UK government before it.
I accept that is our system and that Brexit will clearly go ahead. None of that alters the fact that a clear majority of people voted for parties supporting people vote or remain. We have to go ahead with Brexit but it is not a very auspicious start for such a major constitutional change that at least half the country are opposed to it even before it happens.
It isn't reasonable to throw in "Will have a referendum but the party line will be neutral" as on the Remain side.
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
I agree with you on your first point. It should be up to the devolved assemblies whether or not they call a referendum.
I disagree entirely on your second point though. Refusing it is not smart at all. It will simply give more ammunition to the Independence movement so that when the referendum does eventually come - as it will - it is far more likely that Leave will win. It is a stupid and petty move to deny the referendum and Boris should know better.
In case anyone's interested, I have cashed out my modest bet on the Meaningful Vote passing this year, for a modest profit. I may be wrong, but statements by Michael Gove and Rishi Sunak today mentioned the Bill but not the MV, and I wonder whether there is time to squeeze the MV through before the New Year.
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
Fuckin' hell, an inability to understand basic English, let alone Scottish politics.
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
Can I just clarify my position
If the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood 2021 then a referendum should take place probably in the Autumn of that year
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
I agree with you on your first point. It should be up to the devolved assemblies whether or not they call a referendum.
I disagree entirely on your second point though. Refusing it is not smart at all. It will simply give more ammunition to the Independence movement so that when the referendum does eventually come - as it will - it is far more likely that Leave will win. It is a stupid and petty move to deny the referendum and Boris should know better.
Boris's approach to referendums is entirely consistent: they should only be granted when they further his career.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
I consider myself very well versed in Scots matters having lived and been associated with the Scots, Scotland and it's politics for nearly 70 years
Not doubting it, it's a shame you don't provide the same kind of analysis of Brexit
I am a remainer remember so brexit happening is the will of the people being respected for better or worse
If Scottish people keep electing the SNP by a landslide, will you accept their right to a referendum or do you just pick and choose the results you like?
If they elect a Scottish SNP majority government in a landslide in 2021 then yes they should have a referendum
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
So it is about picking results you like. The majority of people voted for pro-Remain/pro second ref parties in the election - but I'm not going to sit here and argue we should Remain in the EU or have another referendum.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Whatever if it keeps you happy
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
You're just a hypocrite, end of story.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
You are becoming too personal and losing it
Labours demise is hurting and I can understand that
Labour is not dead yet, merely resting. Not sure yet how long for tbh.
It depends how much the membership cares to save it, or how many people choose to join and save it.
My fear is that having just joined, my voice will be denied as there will be some kind of cut off date.
Much also depends on how Johnson gets on over the next five years. He could be in for three or four terms, but more likely in my view he will disappoint in his first.
I hope the PLP stop her from standing, she will be awful
Given the Labour nomination rules, she requires the backing of only 21 MPs and Len McCluskey to make it onto the shortlist.
So, unless Unite alight upon and decide to back an even more left-wing candidate, she'll go to the membership vote and she'll win it.
Don't forget that nearly 40% voted for Owen Smith. Being anointed by the most disastrous party Leader since Ramsey MacDonald may not be a good endorsement!
1. 60% didn't 2. How many of the centre-leftists have since given up and walked away?
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
I agree with you on your first point. It should be up to the devolved assemblies whether or not they call a referendum.
I disagree entirely on your second point though. Refusing it is not smart at all. It will simply give more ammunition to the Independence movement so that when the referendum does eventually come - as it will - it is far more likely that Leave will win. It is a stupid and petty move to deny the referendum and Boris should know better.
I think it is finely poised and I can see your argument.
But it would be better if the PM just did as we both agree and devolved powers. I don’t understand anyone who wants to have a country stay in the Union against the will or it’s people. What’s the point? I’d like the Scots to choose to stay, but it should be a choice.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
It's strange to see people stick their fingers in their ears about Brexit and its many downsides but then become experts on Scottish Independence and how bad it will be
It's perfectly possible for someone to honestly believe that Brexit is good and Scottish independence is bad, wouldn't you say?
Quite possibly, but to deny Scottish self determination on the issue is a contradiction. To vote against it in Sindyref3 is compatible.
the people denying the Scots self determiniation are the SNP. The majority of Scots don't want Indyref2 and still want to stay in the Union,
Then why do they keep electing the SNP in general elections by a landslide? Why do they keep electing the SNP into the Government?
Its a not uncommon phenomenon, around the world, for pro-independence parties to get votes from people who then don't back actual independence.
It helps that they are the only credible centre left party in scotland. SLab are nowhere and LibDems are still a busted flush
I think it helps more that they are the only credible Scotland only party in Scotland. Rightly or wrongly, a plurality of Scottish people feel alienated from Westminster. Many in England do too, but in Scotland everything is always seen through a Scotland vs. England lense. They want a party that fights hard for their interests within the United Kingdom. The only party that promises to do that also campaigns to leave it. How much overlap there is between the two is questionable and is not static.
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
Fuckin' hell, an inability to understand basic English, let alone Scottish politics.
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
Can I just clarify my position
If the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood 2021 then a referendum should take place probably in the Autumn of that year
you wouldn't have PM Johnson if Parliament had accepted the referendum result. That's where the hypocrisy lies.
What does this have to do with literally anything?
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
I think two things are true.
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
I agree with you on your first point. It should be up to the devolved assemblies whether or not they call a referendum.
I disagree entirely on your second point though. Refusing it is not smart at all. It will simply give more ammunition to the Independence movement so that when the referendum does eventually come - as it will - it is far more likely that Leave will win. It is a stupid and petty move to deny the referendum and Boris should know better.
I think it is finely poised and I can see your argument.
But it would be better if the PM just did as we both agree and devolved powers. I don’t understand anyone who wants to have a country stay in the Union against the will or it’s people. What’s the point? I’d like the Scots to choose to stay, but it should be a choice.
They did not campaign specifically for indyref2 at Holyrood 2016 and thus have no mandate for it, especially as they lost their outright majority then anyway
It's almost heroic the amount of crap you spout on this subject from such a low knowledge base.
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
And there is no clear evidence independence has become the preferred option of most Scots even despite Brexit
Fuckin' hell, an inability to understand basic English, let alone Scottish politics.
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
Can I just clarify my position
If the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood 2021 then a referendum should take place probably in the Autumn of that year
Comments
But we will see where we are in five years.
However, it needs Holyrood 2021 to give the SNP the mandate
Referenda are different since they are based on a single issue ( allegedly ). Of the two in this decade both have gone against the will of the governments pushing them.
We've just elected Johnson by a massive majority to deliver Brexit. If I came along and said "no", you'd call me a nutter.
It's just hypocrisy, it really is.
Last thursday the SNP achieved 45% so not a majority vote
They will however lose it
Now is not the time to raise doubts, but between you and me, Jennifer Arcuri may well cause insurmountable problems for Boris sooner rather than later. He may ride out any criticism but the public money issue could yet prove problematic.
The hypocrisy just shines through I'm afraid.
Are you saying therefore that Johnson wasn't elected to deliver Brexit? Let's remain in the EU then, since most people didn't vote for Johnson.
Hypocrisy all around.
I am happy to accept we're leaving the EU as Johnson has got a majority - but these people don't have the decency or honesty to do the same the other way around. But it's fine because Tory word is final.
We had an election, the circumstances in how we got there are irrelevant. The people voted, they voted for Johnson and the Tories and gave them a large majority. We are leaving.
This is a really very poor attempt to weasel out of your rank hypocrisy.
BTW, is this the referendum result Johnson himself voted against twice?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/28/scottish-parliament-votes-for-second-independence-referendum-nicola-sturgeon
I can only agree the Scots should have a referendum in late 2021 if they win Holyrood
I think you have far more serious problems in trying to prevent the extinction of the labour party
Oh, wait...
That is the system we work under and everyone works with it. If you don't like it vote for PR. But oddly once Labour has got to that point by being in government
it will suddenly decide PR is a bad idea and FPTP is better as indeed has every UK government before it.
Brexiteers had their "once in a generation" chance - and chose to take it.
Simple as that.
I am trying to stop the extinction of Labour, I am taking action on it - but your pathetic whataboutism is telling.
You really have been brainwashed.
Labours demise is hurting and I can understand that
1) The SNP should get a second referendum - not off the back of this election but off the back of the last Hollyrood election. Powers to call them should be permanently devolved to the various assemblies.
2) It’s smart politics for the PM to refuse it, and allow the SNP to be impotent and gradually have its Gvt record catch up with it; just as it’s embroiled in scandal.
The PM will be morally wrong, but politically clever.
I think there will be two differences next time, if there is a next time.
1. It won't simply be "should Scotland be an independent country?" It will be a choice between UK and EU membership. As the latter will represent all kinds of risks and discontinuities (currency, economics, fiscal transfers, pensions, fisheries, etc) then its certainly not a slam dunk for "Indy".
2. UK Govt will, rightly, amend referendum question so that it reads something like: "Should Scotland be an independent country - and leave the United Kingdom?"
'We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
RE:Indyref2
Nobody on the unionist side uttered anything about "once in a generation". But the Yessers used the line repeatedly.
Very proud of the Johnson/Gove stance after watching re-run of #ridge
2016 the proportions on the Regional List were SCON 22.9, SLAB 19.1 and SLD 5.2
Don't forget that 4.5% of the Regional vote last time went to tiny parties.
It's very much game on.
I am prepared - just look at my username
My fear is that having just joined, my voice will be denied as there will be some kind of cut off date.
Indeed Sturgeon admitted as much on the media today
There are many commenting on Scottish matters who to be honest do not understand the complexities of politics north of the border
How, pray tell, is the rest of the country meant to react to this? With unbridled joy?
I've heard that as much as 1/3 of SNP voters don't want indepedndance.
The mind really boggles at the idiocy that goes on on the north of the island.
I had to jump in when that discussion occurred
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/great-divide
"We have had senior military personnel threatening “mutiny” in the event of a Corbyn victory, threats of foreign intervention by the US government, "
"We need a return to whole worker organising, across workplaces and communities, to build an integrated movement, not based simply on a core of politicised activists but on deep roots within the class which can mobilise organised workers, in elections and on the streets, to defend their communities."
Mobilise on the streets to "defend" eh?
Are these "the best of the Labour movement"??
Indeed these members of my family have contributed greatly to the Scots economy and their communities
That intolerance is just ugly
Scots just aren't very canny anymore.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/saacor9lpe/TheTimes_191203_Scotland_VI_Results_w2_W.pdf
'or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
So, unless Unite alight upon and decide to back an even more left-wing candidate, she'll go to the membership vote and she'll win it.
The Tories won a majority on Thursday on a manifesto commitment to block indyref2
GEs are a choice of a bundled set of policies to run the country. Nobody ever gets everything that they want even the winners. People compromise and vote for a party.
A referendum is a vote on a single matter and the bundling falls apart as its a yes \ no choice.
If the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood 2021 then a referendum should take place probably in the Autumn of that year
I disagree entirely on your second point though. Refusing it is not smart at all. It will simply give more ammunition to the Independence movement so that when the referendum does eventually come - as it will - it is far more likely that Leave will win. It is a stupid and petty move to deny the referendum and Boris should know better.
No indyref2 this parliament.
Suck it up nationalist scum
2. How many of the centre-leftists have since given up and walked away?
But it would be better if the PM just did as we both agree and devolved powers. I don’t understand anyone who wants to have a country stay in the Union against the will or it’s people. What’s the point? I’d like the Scots to choose to stay, but it should be a choice.
Do you want a yearly ref on the matter?