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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polling that’s persuaded me that turnout will be greater t

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polling that’s persuaded me that turnout will be greater than 66.4%

When it became clear that we were going to have a December general election the general view was this would inevitably lead to a lower turnout than the 68.8% of GE2017. The argument was that at this time of year the days are getting very short and and it will be harder to both campaign and to persuade voters to turn out on. My view is that what drives turnout is how important the election is seen to be not when it is held.

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    First - as sadly so will be Boris.
  • Keep an eye on the weather forecast!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    If it looks like Tory victory is not only inevitable, but likely to be a landslide, then that might lead to a lower turnout. As you say one of the reasons turnout was so high in 1992 was that the result was seen as in doubt.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Prepare for the most ugly result of an election ever beating 1983 by a whisker. Fortunately I have the means to take myself to France and providing Johnson's quasi fascist government doesn't impliment stuff that brings a reciprocal response from the French I can become a happy ex pat.

    For those who are forced to live under this clown they have at least one thing to look forward to. No more Corbyn. One of the five people most responsible for this very British farce
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited November 2019
    On costing manifestos, has the Conservative Party included the increased revenues that will flow from its flagship policy of Brexit?
  • Keep an eye on the weather forecast!

    There's no evidence that bad weather impedes turnout
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    If it looks like Tory victory is not only inevitable, but likely to be a landslide, then that might lead to a lower turnout. As you say one of the reasons turnout was so high in 1992 was that the result was seen as in doubt.

    Equally - people will only go and vote if they willingly want to vote. Corbyn is another reason why turnout may drop.
  • Mike do you think high turnout will favour one party more than others, and do you think we should aim off the polls as a result or are the polls already capturing it?
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    Turnout will be low if there is no point in voting. If the polls say Boris will win comfortably then expect a low turnout.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    I think Dom Cummings has successfully persuaded Leave voters this is the last chance to save Brexit.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Icarus said:

    Turnout will be low if there is no point in voting. If the polls say Boris will win comfortably then expect a low turnout.

    Wasn't that true in 1997? And turnout was fairly high. Admittedly it fell dramatically in 2001.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    I've always thought this would be a high turnout election.
  • I’m still on modest turnout (<65%) but it’s the bet I’m least confident about of them all.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Keep an eye on the weather forecast!

    There's no evidence that bad weather impedes turnout
    Any effect it did have would most likely be younger voters staying home because of the hurty snow. The older voters will either be postal or dunkirk their way to the polling station. I think you're spot on though, no measurable effect likely
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Let it snow!

    The Tory anthem for the GE.
  • Corbyn promising musical instrument lessons to all today.

    It seems to me he’s going to fart out a new bung every day between now and polling day in the desperate hope it grabs the headlines and changes the narrative.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Let it snow!

    The Tory anthem for the GE.

    The cold never bothered them anyway
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    If it looks like Tory victory is not only inevitable, but likely to be a landslide, then that might lead to a lower turnout. As you say one of the reasons turnout was so high in 1992 was that the result was seen as in doubt.

    The youth won't vote if Boris looks a nailed on winner.

    They don't like to vote for a loser.

    And I'm not sure how many Remainers are going to bother, if it looks like Brexit is going to happen with winner Boris. What is the point in rewarding either Labour or the LibDems if they wouldn't work together to stop Brexit from happening?

    Ever the contrarian, me...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited November 2019
    Fpt


    That is a devestating stat, I had to go and look at the historical chart to convince myself it was true. In terms of debt increases it's like a world war.

    But, as a counter point the increased debt shielded the UK population from the impact of the GFC by transferring the cost to future generations. Wise? Maybe in terms of social impact.

    What I don't understand is people crying about austerity when it clearly never happened.

    You'd better let some people know.

    'Theresa May: People need to know austerity is over'

    https://tinyurl.com/vjtkx2h

    '''Austerity is over,' says Philip Hammond as £12 billion windfall sees spending increase'

    https://tinyurl.com/yycrv9lg

    'Chancellor Sajid Javid declares end of austerity'

    https://tinyurl.com/y4c5bfca
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    edited November 2019
    Icarus said:

    Turnout will be low if there is no point in voting. If the polls say Boris will win comfortably then expect a low turnout.

    I think determination to prevent a particular result is more imporant than how much your vote will count. A drowning man will grab anything to save his life however hopeless the task
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    The three Lab victories in the header chart followed the three lowest "importance" ratings.
  • Mike do you think high turnout will favour one party more than others, and do you think we should aim off the polls as a result or are the polls already capturing it?

    Polls don't have a good record of measuring turnout. After GE2017 the BES sought to check whether those who told them that they were 100% certain to vote actually did. This is done by checking the marked electoral register.

    As I recall only about 85% of the 100% certainties actually did vote
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    tlg86 said:

    Icarus said:

    Turnout will be low if there is no point in voting. If the polls say Boris will win comfortably then expect a low turnout.

    Wasn't that true in 1997? And turnout was fairly high. Admittedly it fell dramatically in 2001.
    97 was the dual blast of '18 years of this ends now' and 'stop Blair having 500 seats'
    2001 was the roof hasn't come in after all and we need 5 more years of party healing
  • If it looks like Tory victory is not only inevitable, but likely to be a landslide, then that might lead to a lower turnout. As you say one of the reasons turnout was so high in 1992 was that the result was seen as in doubt.

    The youth won't vote if Boris looks a nailed on winner.

    They don't like to vote for a loser.

    And I'm not sure how many Remainers are going to bother, if it looks like Brexit is going to happen with winner Boris. What is the point in rewarding either Labour or the LibDems if they wouldn't work together to stop Brexit from happening?

    Ever the contrarian, me...
    I win my bet even if turnout is 2% down on last time.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    Blair at Reuters promoting the 'third way'.

    Lib Dem polling suggests he's yesterday's man.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    If a student voters they still only achieve a 50% turnout if they are registered at 2 addresses.
  • The older voters will either be postal or dunkirk their way to the polling station.

    That would be some Biblical level of flooding.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Stuck at Deansgate. Now over 30 minutes late. Kerching!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    edited November 2019

    Keep an eye on the weather forecast!

    There's no evidence that bad weather impedes turnout
    Not true. See Gomez etc al (2007) - one inch of rainfall reduces turnout by 1% in the US. Also a 2017 study showed that it impacted Democrats more than Republicans, perhaps because bad weather reduces people's tolerance to risk.

    No reason to suppose Brits are more tolerant of bad weather than our American cousins.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited November 2019
    Suspended.

    Ha !

    They have a tripwire on Mike's referral code if there is one.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    The all-knowing state not much self-aware. Do they have opinion polls in China?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    The older voters will either be postal or dunkirk their way to the polling station.

    That would be some Biblical level of flooding.
    Bessie Saunders, 103, of Warrington said 'it were only a mile swim either way. We had worse when I were a lass'
  • Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.
  • MattW said:

    Suspended.

    Ha !

    The spread betting firms are just as cowardly as the fixed odds bookies.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    If a student voters they still only achieve a 50% turnout if they are registered at 2 addresses.

    Assuming they only vote once. Are there any mechanisms to prevent them voting multiple times?
    And welcome to Manchester! Everyone gets stuck at Deansgate. It's the busiest stretch of railway in the north, as Sunil can no doubt confirm.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    edited November 2019
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2019
    nunu2 said:
    Unfettered up to and including infanticide?
  • The older voters will either be postal or dunkirk their way to the polling station.

    That would be some Biblical level of flooding.
    Bessie Saunders, 103, of Warrington said 'it were only a mile swim either way. We had worse when I were a lass'
    Bloody Huns, bloody French, where's the fooking RAF, I like the cut of the jib of that posh bloke that looks like a bulldog etc.

    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, as Bessie wouldn't say.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    The older voters will either be postal or dunkirk their way to the polling station.

    That would be some Biblical level of flooding.
    Bessie Saunders, 103, of Warrington said 'it were only a mile swim either way. We had worse when I were a lass'
    They bred 'em tough in South Lancashire.
  • Keep an eye on the weather forecast!

    There's no evidence that bad weather impedes turnout
    Any effect it did have would most likely be younger voters staying home because of the hurty snow. The older voters will either be postal or dunkirk their way to the polling station. I think you're spot on though, no measurable effect likely
    This is your regular reminder that almost everyone who was an adult during WW2 and might have seen combat are dead. Most old voters' only recollection of Dunkirk is reading about it in Victor as they enjoyed their childhood cosseted by the welfare state that they are now voting to dismantle.

    Carry on.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 690
    I woke up this morning to see a news flash on my phone to say that Labour is ahead in the polls. Turns out it is referring to New Zealand.
  • llefllef Posts: 300
    I think we can expect a welsh opinion poll later today

    https://twitter.com/roger_scully/status/1198892130913181696
  • Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.

    No, they must emphasise sexual equality and that it is right that pension ages are the same and that it is also unfair for the young to pay extra taxes so that people can retire at 60 when their own retirement age will be 67.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.

    Hi @interested, and welcome!
    I think sympathy is a bit misplaced. Rather, a patient recounting of the facts, i.e. warnings since the 1990s, aim for equality between the sexes, affordability in the face of increased longevity and so on. Non-waspi onlookers have a legitimate interest in the matter, and that should also be made clear.
  • nunu2 said:
    After 17 readings, I have no idea what on earth Labour is promising on abortion, and why they think it is a good idea to stir up this settled issue. I am not sure the first reference in the manifesto was not intended to be merely a forward reference to the Northern Ireland section. They may be lucky their opponents went into hyperbole overdrive by saying this meant abortions at 8 months and 3 weeks, which is literally incredible. No-one could take that seriously.

    If I were CCHQ or an anti-abortion activist, I'd concentrate on the issue of gender-choice abortion. That sounds more plausible and more scary.

  • Gold standard Survation poll including full tables now published. Lead cut to 11 from 14 as reported. Best PM lead also cut substantially.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Survation?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited November 2019

    If a student voters they still only achieve a 50% turnout if they are registered at 2 addresses.

    More to the point, allowing for those who have died or emigrated but are still on the register, or those who are multiple registered as landlords, second home owners or students, or people moved house who haven't yet been deleted from their old address, the theoretical maximum turnout is probably about 95%
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,017
    MaxPB said:

    I think Dom Cummings has successfully persuaded Leave voters this is the last chance to save Brexit.

    Last chance to save Putin's biggest foreign policy win
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,267
    DUP could back Labour if they back their Northern Ireland plan but only if they dump Corbyn as leader

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2019/dup-could-work-with-labour-if-it-was-no-longer-led-by-corbyn-38722057.html
  • Mr. Mango, easier to deride those who wish to leave the EU as stooges of Putin than to consider what their genuine grievances might be.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    IanB2 said:

    If a student voters they still only achieve a 50% turnout if they are registered at 2 addresses.

    More to the point, allowing for those who have died or emigrated but are still on the register, or those who are multiple registered as landlords, second home owners or students, or people moved house who haven't yet been deleted from their old address, the theoretical maximum turnout is probably about 95%
    In Scotland for IndyRef 85% turnout was reached.

    Account for commonwealth citizens, EU citizens and non-Scottish UK Residents who didn't vote because they felt it wasn't appropriate and that probably would have got turnout to 90%.

    The last 10% is the dual registered, the dead and the really, really couldn't be arsed.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited November 2019

    Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.

    Welcome to PB

    The waspi women are being used by labour in an attempt to improve their poll ratings and it is absurd in the extreme

    The waspi women's case is currently on appeal having already lost their case and the government's stance has to be sympathetic but cannot make any decision until the result of the appeal is known. If the appeal court confirms the waspi women do not have a case then it would be ridiculous to pay 58 billion in compensation. Indeed I would expect a judicial review outlawing such a huge payment

    However, if the court rules in favour of the women then the government will be required to compensate

    McDonnell's blatant bribe says all you need to know about this marxist cabal running the labour party and the country needs to unite behind Boris as he said yesterday

    'lets have a Corbyn free Christmas'
  • geoffw said:

    Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.

    Hi @interested, and welcome!
    I think sympathy is a bit misplaced. Rather, a patient recounting of the facts, i.e. warnings since the 1990s, aim for equality between the sexes, affordability in the face of increased longevity and so on. Non-waspi onlookers have a legitimate interest in the matter, and that should also be made clear.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    geoffw said:

    Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.

    Hi @interested, and welcome!
    I think sympathy is a bit misplaced. Rather, a patient recounting of the facts, i.e. warnings since the 1990s, aim for equality between the sexes, affordability in the face of increased longevity and so on. Non-waspi onlookers have a legitimate interest in the matter, and that should also be made clear.
    Think the point about the Lab proposal actually being of benefit to richer rather than poorer people (due to benefit clawback etc) is powerful.
  • nunu2 said:
    After 17 readings, I have no idea what on earth Labour is promising on abortion, and why they think it is a good idea to stir up this settled issue. I am not sure the first reference in the manifesto was not intended to be merely a forward reference to the Northern Ireland section. They may be lucky their opponents went into hyperbole overdrive by saying this meant abortions at 8 months and 3 weeks, which is literally incredible. No-one could take that seriously.

    If I were CCHQ or an anti-abortion activist, I'd concentrate on the issue of gender-choice abortion. That sounds more plausible and more scary.

    If I were CCHQ I would not touch this issue with a 10 foot barge poll. Abortion is not a party political matter in this country nor should it be.

    On topic I've long expected this to be a high turnout election. Don't forget turnout for the EU Referendum itself was 72.21%

    Who that helps is another question. High turnout in 2017 helped Labour.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947

    Seems to me the Tory response on the women's 1950's pension issue is easy.

    A lot of sympathy very difficult etc.

    But it's very expensive. To compensate the women would cost the average income tax payer £2000 ( £58 bil divided by 30 million tax payers). Unlike Labour we can't put that burden on the tax payer. To borrow would increase the burden further because the interest would have to be paid as well.

    No, they must emphasise sexual equality and that it is right that pension ages are the same and that it is also unfair for the young to pay extra taxes so that people can retire at 60 when their own retirement age will be 67.
    The Conservatives should emphasise that women are still heavily subsidised by the system. Equality would mean that women would retire a few years later than men, as they still tend to live longer. Not sure that would be saleable on the doorstep though.
  • Thanks,

    Don't disagree but I think they have to say the sympathy stuffy not appear heartless. The important point is to emphasis that tax payers will take a material hit thereby focussing minds.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469

    Gold standard Survation poll including full tables now published. Lead cut to 11 from 14 as reported. Best PM lead also cut substantially.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Survation?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    Its "the wobble"
  • MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    They wont build them
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,267
    edited November 2019

    Gold standard Survation poll including full tables now published. Lead cut to 11 from 14 as reported. Best PM lead also cut substantially.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Survation?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    Still a swing of 4.5% from Labour to the Tories since 2017.

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1198890308714586112?s=20

    Boris leads by 21% as best PM

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1198891456762720258?s=20

    Tories still seen as having the best campaign

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1198891463431671808?s=20
  • Fpt


    That is a devestating stat, I had to go and look at the historical chart to convince myself it was true. In terms of debt increases it's like a world war.

    But, as a counter point the increased debt shielded the UK population from the impact of the GFC by transferring the cost to future generations. Wise? Maybe in terms of social impact.

    What I don't understand is people crying about austerity when it clearly never happened.

    You'd better let some people know.

    'Theresa May: People need to know austerity is over'

    https://tinyurl.com/vjtkx2h

    '''Austerity is over,' says Philip Hammond as £12 billion windfall sees spending increase'

    https://tinyurl.com/yycrv9lg

    'Chancellor Sajid Javid declares end of austerity'

    https://tinyurl.com/y4c5bfca

    Austerity is a word that means different things to different people. Those opposing government spending policies were successful in getting their version of the word widely accepted and so now claiming that we didn’t have austerity is a bit like complaining about the use of literally to mean figuratively: that fight has been lost.
  • MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    If they have to be sold on at a discount they will never be sold on.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    llef said:

    I think we can expect a welsh opinion poll later today

    https://twitter.com/roger_scully/status/1198892130913181696

    Labour voters going home.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    Ian McNicol speaking now, suggesting more off-manifesto spending commitments to come before election day.
  • geoffw said:

    The three Lab victories in the header chart followed the three lowest "importance" ratings.

    That was that far off time of nailed on New Labour victories, and general political boredom, stability and apathy. The Tories weren't even on the bench let alone in the game for most of that time.

    One of the most interesting things is just how shallow the strength of New Labour was. If you suggested in the 00s the party would be in the hands of the hard left within 10-15 years you would have been derided.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    edited November 2019

    Fpt


    That is a devestating stat, I had to go and look at the historical chart to convince myself it was true. In terms of debt increases it's like a world war.

    But, as a counter point the increased debt shielded the UK population from the impact of the GFC by transferring the cost to future generations. Wise? Maybe in terms of social impact.

    What I don't understand is people crying about austerity when it clearly never happened.

    You'd better let some people know.

    'Theresa May: People need to know austerity is over'

    https://tinyurl.com/vjtkx2h

    '''Austerity is over,' says Philip Hammond as £12 billion windfall sees spending increase'

    https://tinyurl.com/yycrv9lg

    'Chancellor Sajid Javid declares end of austerity'

    https://tinyurl.com/y4c5bfca
    Austerity is a word that means different things to different people. Those opposing government spending policies were successful in getting their version of the word widely accepted and so now claiming that we didn’t have austerity is a bit like complaining about the use of literally to mean figuratively: that fight has been lost.



    ------------------------------------

    I have never heard a normal person use the word 'austerity' to refer to the general conditions of one of the world's wealthiest nations in 2019. It is a media, activist and politico term. The winter of 1947 would be a candidate for austerity.

  • IanB2 said:

    If a student voters they still only achieve a 50% turnout if they are registered at 2 addresses.

    More to the point, allowing for those who have died or emigrated but are still on the register, or those who are multiple registered as landlords, second home owners or students, or people moved house who haven't yet been deleted from their old address, the theoretical maximum turnout is probably about 95%
    How many of the dead will have voted by post? After all we know from some of the posters on this site that they have already voted. Over the whole country there must be some who the die before polling day.
  • HYUFD said:
    5% (+3%) of Leave voters back Jo Swinson as Best PM? WTF?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited November 2019

    Mr. Mango, easier to deride those who wish to leave the EU as stooges of Putin than to consider what their genuine grievances might be.

    Leave voters may well have genuine grievances. No-one doubts that. The question is whether these will be resolved by Brexit.

    ETA: it is not the voters who were Putin's stooges but those who campaigned for Brexit.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    SandraMc said:

    Can I say as a WASPI woman that when I first learnt of the pension age increase I was hopping mad. I didn't have the option of continuing work as I was a carer so it did hit me financially. When I realised that it was to be phased in so my pension was delayed by just over a year, I was a bit happier. I understand the reasons for it but whatever the pros and cons of the argument to say that women did not know about it in advance is nonsense.

    My own pennyworth is that there may be a case for compensating some women in real hardship.

    There are big pension subsidies given to the very well-off (which many on pb.com no doubt avail themselves of).

    I don't see any problem in a means-tested one-off payment to some WASPI women in real hardship. I don't think it would cost that much.

    Labour's plan is ridiculous, as it will involve "compensating" some very well-off people.
  • Mr. Camel, they'll throw billions at everything, hoping something sticks.

    It might. Or the electorate might take the view they're off their rocker.

    Mr. Tang, be fair. The sudden shift in Labour happened because of the idiocy of changing the rules and Labour MPs failing to understand their own system. They went from having substantial influence in the vote itself to becoming gatekeepers to keep our lunatics.

    Then they put Corbyn on the shortlist.
  • MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    If they have to be sold on at a discount they will never be sold on.
    It would completely stunt mobility. Whoever had that home would never be able to afford to move.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    It will come off the value of the land. Fewer yachts for farmers.
  • Streeter said:

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    It will come off the value of the land. Fewer yachts for farmers.
    How bad do you think the flooding will get? 😀
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Streeter said:

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    It will come off the value of the land. Fewer yachts for farmers.
    Yep - land prices = value of built house less building costs (plus a bit of profit).

    When Help to Buy was created the excess builders profits have come from the pieces of land they purchased prior to HtB increasing land prices.
  • Mr. JohnL, Boris Johnson was campaigning for his own career prospects. Gove, I suspect, wanted a shot across the bows of the EU and rather buggered it up by winning (something the blonde jester also didn't really want).

    You're right that some/many grievances won't be addressed by leaving. Partly this is a failure of pro-EU parties/individuals who had powers to do things like restrict immigration/benefits and failed to act. Likewise, a failure to actually explain why they were pro-EU and instead play to the sceptic gallery on campaign (cf Lisbon and the referendum that never was) ended up stoking sceptical sentiment whilst not addressing any concerns raised.

    They even had the chance to try and vote for May's deal then tack on a second referendum, but decided against it.

    There are good things about the EU. And drawbacks as well. It's rather sad that the 2016 campaigns were a litany of doom-laden prophecies, outrageous complacency, and assorted fictions.

    Said it before many times, but the biggest thing holding back a higher level of political discourse in this country is a largely incompetent and/or partisan media. More scrutiny of legislation and less of a focus on scalp-hunting and personalities would serve the UK well.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited November 2019

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    If they have to be sold on at a discount they will never be sold on.
    It would completely stunt mobility. Whoever had that home would never be able to afford to move.
    No - they would be able to move but it might take longer.

    You can see similiar things where local occupancy requirements are attached to a property. Yes they will sell and at a discount but the smaller market does mean it takes longer.

    My concern would be that people don't understand what they are buying. There are local occupancy houses in the Dales that have been on the market for years as the original buyer seriously overpaid and cannot find another buyer.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    If they have to be sold on at a discount they will never be sold on.
    It would completely stunt mobility. Whoever had that home would never be able to afford to move.
    So Labour's "plan" is to make house builders build homes and sell them way below market prices, have the owners of those homes sell them at a discount if they ever want to move, and to have rent caps in the private rental sector. Well I'm sure there is no way all of that can possibly go horribly wrong!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    Former PB Gold Standard ICM expected today?
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    Mr. Camel, they'll throw billions at everything, hoping something sticks.

    It might. Or the electorate might take the view they're off their rocker.

    Mr. Tang, be fair. The sudden shift in Labour happened because of the idiocy of changing the rules and Labour MPs failing to understand their own system. They went from having substantial influence in the vote itself to becoming gatekeepers to keep our lunatics.

    Then they put Corbyn on the shortlist.

    There's a tipping point in terms of the fatness of the cheque.

    The point where you'd be 'off your rocker' to refuse.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    SandraMc said:

    Can I say as a WASPI woman that when I first learnt of the pension age increase I was hopping mad. I didn't have the option of continuing work as I was a carer so it did hit me financially. When I realised that it was to be phased in so my pension was delayed by just over a year, I was a bit happier. I understand the reasons for it but whatever the pros and cons of the argument to say that women did not know about it in advance is nonsense.

    My own pennyworth is that there may be a case for compensating some women in real hardship.

    There are big pension subsidies given to the very well-off (which many on pb.com no doubt avail themselves of).

    I don't see any problem in a means-tested one-off payment to some WASPI women in real hardship. I don't think it would cost that much.

    Labour's plan is ridiculous, as it will involve "compensating" some very well-off people.
    I agree, means testing the compensation would both be fairer and significantly cheaper. Providing it, say, to any woman affected with less than XXk in assets.

    From an electoral perspective, the policy might turn out to be beneficial for Labour. Labour does very badly with older voters, but that's 3.7m women who potentially now have a very good personal reason to vote Labour.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    glw said:

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    If they have to be sold on at a discount they will never be sold on.
    It would completely stunt mobility. Whoever had that home would never be able to afford to move.
    So Labour's "plan" is to make house builders build homes and sell them way below market prices, have the owners of those homes sell them at a discount if they ever want to move, and to have rent caps in the private rental sector. Well I'm sure there is no way all of that can possibly go horribly wrong!
    There's the cost of the annual 'Property MOT' too, which absolutely in no way will be added to the rent.


  • On topic is there a party-split on this question?

    Ie is there a difference between which parties supporters are saying that whoever wins is important to them?
  • rkrkrk said:

    SandraMc said:

    Can I say as a WASPI woman that when I first learnt of the pension age increase I was hopping mad. I didn't have the option of continuing work as I was a carer so it did hit me financially. When I realised that it was to be phased in so my pension was delayed by just over a year, I was a bit happier. I understand the reasons for it but whatever the pros and cons of the argument to say that women did not know about it in advance is nonsense.

    My own pennyworth is that there may be a case for compensating some women in real hardship.

    There are big pension subsidies given to the very well-off (which many on pb.com no doubt avail themselves of).

    I don't see any problem in a means-tested one-off payment to some WASPI women in real hardship. I don't think it would cost that much.

    Labour's plan is ridiculous, as it will involve "compensating" some very well-off people.
    I agree, means testing the compensation would both be fairer and significantly cheaper. Providing it, say, to any woman affected with less than XXk in assets.

    From an electoral perspective, the policy might turn out to be beneficial for Labour. Labour does very badly with older voters, but that's 3.7m women who potentially now have a very good personal reason to vote Labour.
    How many of those 3.7 million do you think will be gullible enough to fall for this when it wasn't in the manifesto and isn't costed?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    camel said:

    glw said:

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Labour going to force developers to build and pay for 50k "starter homes", to be sold at approx 40% discount by the look of it.

    "Healey said in Boris Johnson’s constituency of Uxbridge, in London, where the average house price is £350,000, the price of new homes built in this way could be just £190,000. The properties would be earmarked as first-time buyer homes in perpetuity, and would have to be sold on at a discount to market rates."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/24/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-take-on-exploitative-landlords-if-elected-pm

    At an average UK house price of 250k, I make that a subsidy of 5 billion.

    How many years profit is that for the entire industry?

    If they have to be sold on at a discount they will never be sold on.
    It would completely stunt mobility. Whoever had that home would never be able to afford to move.
    So Labour's "plan" is to make house builders build homes and sell them way below market prices, have the owners of those homes sell them at a discount if they ever want to move, and to have rent caps in the private rental sector. Well I'm sure there is no way all of that can possibly go horribly wrong!
    There's the cost of the annual 'Property MOT' too, which absolutely in no way will be added to the rent.


    Good point, I heard about that on the radio this morning. The Labour bod could not answer who was going to carry out the inspections, or what they would cost. It sounded about as well thought out as the Home Information Packs.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851

    Keep an eye on the weather forecast!

    Fingers crossed for a hurricane in Hartlepool a snowstorm in Stoke and a blizzard in Boston
  • Non paywall Anand Menon Article from the FT that put the cat among the pigeons last week:

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/an-inflexible-brussels-is-damaging-its-own-interests-over-brexit/
  • A very neat bet Mike ... I agree with you. In fact a couple of days ago I had a couple of fixed odds turnover % bets, both with BetFred.Firstly 65%-70% at 7/4 and secondly 70%-75% at 9/2, hopefully ensuring me a profit over a full 10% turnout range. These odds have since shortened slightly to 13/8 and 4/1 respectively but still look likedecent value, especially compared with the likes of Unibet who offer odds of only Evens for the 65%-70% band and a measly 5/2 for the 70%-75% band ... both definitely to be avoided!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Roger said:

    Keep an eye on the weather forecast!

    Fingers crossed for a hurricane in Hartlepool a snowstorm in Stoke and a blizzard in Boston
    Won't stop 'em voting to Make Brexit Happen.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2019
    I thought 16/1 under 60% was a good bet, but didn’t have it. Maybe I was making the mistake of thinking my complete boredom over it all represents the national mood.

    @TheScreamingEagles thought over 75% was value at 6/1, maybe he was right
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    rkrkrk said:

    SandraMc said:

    Can I say as a WASPI woman that when I first learnt of the pension age increase I was hopping mad. I didn't have the option of continuing work as I was a carer so it did hit me financially. When I realised that it was to be phased in so my pension was delayed by just over a year, I was a bit happier. I understand the reasons for it but whatever the pros and cons of the argument to say that women did not know about it in advance is nonsense.

    My own pennyworth is that there may be a case for compensating some women in real hardship.

    There are big pension subsidies given to the very well-off (which many on pb.com no doubt avail themselves of).

    I don't see any problem in a means-tested one-off payment to some WASPI women in real hardship. I don't think it would cost that much.

    Labour's plan is ridiculous, as it will involve "compensating" some very well-off people.
    I agree, means testing the compensation would both be fairer and significantly cheaper. Providing it, say, to any woman affected with less than XXk in assets.

    From an electoral perspective, the policy might turn out to be beneficial for Labour. Labour does very badly with older voters, but that's 3.7m women who potentially now have a very good personal reason to vote Labour.
    How many of those 3.7 million do you think will be gullible enough to fall for this when it wasn't in the manifesto and isn't costed?
    You mean you think Labour would not honour its promise?
    I think that's very unlikely. Having made a public pledge like this, to not honour it would be electoral suicide.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    HYUFD said:
    5% (+3%) of Leave voters back Jo Swinson as Best PM? WTF?
    A fresh 2% of Tory voters now think Corbyn would make a better PM than their Bozo.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Uber loses licence to operate in London.

    However will da yoof get to the polling stations?
  • When I started teaching it was common for teachers to be offered early retirement at 50; indeed I got my present job by replacing a teacher who had done just that.
    I am now 50 myself and faced with the prospect of 17 more years of teaching.

    Do you think I could persuade the Labour Party to cough up for the missed 17 years of pension?
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    rkrkrk said:

    SandraMc said:

    Can I say as a WASPI woman that when I first learnt of the pension age increase I was hopping mad. I didn't have the option of continuing work as I was a carer so it did hit me financially. When I realised that it was to be phased in so my pension was delayed by just over a year, I was a bit happier. I understand the reasons for it but whatever the pros and cons of the argument to say that women did not know about it in advance is nonsense.

    My own pennyworth is that there may be a case for compensating some women in real hardship.

    There are big pension subsidies given to the very well-off (which many on pb.com no doubt avail themselves of).

    I don't see any problem in a means-tested one-off payment to some WASPI women in real hardship. I don't think it would cost that much.

    Labour's plan is ridiculous, as it will involve "compensating" some very well-off people.
    I agree, means testing the compensation would both be fairer and significantly cheaper. Providing it, say, to any woman affected with less than XXk in assets.

    From an electoral perspective, the policy might turn out to be beneficial for Labour. Labour does very badly with older voters, but that's 3.7m women who potentially now have a very good personal reason to vote Labour.
    How many of those 3.7 million do you think will be gullible enough to fall for this when it wasn't in the manifesto and isn't costed?
    It's a huge wodge of cash that voters will get if they get a Labour government. Paid for by someone else. To accept that is sensible, especially at that stage of life and career. It's quite the opposite of gullibility.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    HYUFD said:
    5% (+3%) of Leave voters back Jo Swinson as Best PM? WTF?
    Not all that difficult to understand, if integrity and competence are what you want from a PM, rather than adherence to your particular position on Brexit. I believe Stodge of this parish would be one of that 5%
This discussion has been closed.