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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Byronic said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Yep. Over £0.6 trillion missing - and that's just on two items....
    Their costings are revenue based, not capital
    The first hours after an exit poll showing a Labour Govt. would see buttons pressed on the biggest flight of capital in human history.

    That would ensure revenues would crash.

    I certainly know of people preparing a metaphorical button to have their finger on, if required. They're watching polls very carefully. Singapore and Dubai will be very happy indeed if Labour wins, as I'm sure will be New York and Tokyo.
    How does a Brit protect wealth from a potential Corbyn government? Seriously. How???
    Gold under the bed.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545
    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    So, I assume no PBer has their socks on still?
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    camelcamel Posts: 815
    Back of the fag packet stuff on Labour tax plans for entrepreneurs.

    These proposals change the effective tax rate for entrepreneurs who choose to pay themselves in dividends from 49.8% to 63%, with an increase in tax on retained profits at retirement from 10% to 50%.

    That's a stunning change to the risk/reward ratio for starting your own business.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Ideally, I'd limit the vote to people exactly like me ;)
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    camel said:

    Back of the fag packet stuff on Labour tax plans for entrepreneurs.

    These proposals change the effective tax rate for entrepreneurs who choose to pay themselves in dividends from 49.8% to 63%, with an increase in tax on retained profits at retirement from 10% to 50%.

    That's a stunning change to the risk/reward ratio for starting your own business.

    The 10% was not meant for retirement, but to fund further ventures, which is exactly what entrepreneurs do!
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    kinabalu said:

    This Labour manifesto is not a programme for government - winning a majority is not feasible - but about framing future political debate. The ideas is that things thought not even worthy of discussion following the Thatcher revolution become at least a part of the conversation, merits and demerits considered just as happens with policies from other parties. It is, if I may demonstrate a little panache here, an attempt to move the "Overton Window". Which IMO is both welcome and necessary.

    Maybe partly. But this is also a core vote, who-cares-about-Brexit manifesto. Labour are abandoning any hope in southern marginals, maybe forever; they want to shore up their position in big cities and the North/Wales.

    It is also a throw-it-and-see-what-sticks manifesto. It’s so insane it might just change the entire electoral narrative. Which is what they want.

    To my mind it’s a poor decision (it will surely play badly in London, for example), but I can see the logic

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    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Yep. Over £0.6 trillion missing - and that's just on two items....
    Are you a cretin?

    Or just in need of training about the difference between Capital (like the 40 or should we say 6 hospitals) and Revenue (like the £12500 NI change or should we say £9500)
    Both need accounting for. Capital doesn't just magic out of thin air.
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    camel said:

    Back of the fag packet stuff on Labour tax plans for entrepreneurs.

    These proposals change the effective tax rate for entrepreneurs who choose to pay themselves in dividends from 49.8% to 63%, with an increase in tax on retained profits at retirement from 10% to 50%.

    That's a stunning change to the risk/reward ratio for starting your own business.

    You think companies will be able to make a profit under Marxist McDonnell? How naive.
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679
    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Whereas I'm sufficiently crazy to say if a 4 year old can vote they should be able to. There will always be children who are able to consider these issues equal to or better than someone 18+, and age is just an arbitrary determinant; the idea of a test to vote is abhorrent, so it should be one vote for anyone willing to exercise it, as long as they do exercise it themselves. But I would also make voting mandatory, like Australia, although allowing spoilt ballots, obvs.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    edited November 2019

    RobD said:

    The least Labour could have done is the legalized cannabis, which would definitely have actually brought in some extra tax revenue without depressing economic activity.

    Actually surprised that wasn't included.
    It honestly seemed like a no-brainer to me. At the very least, medical exemption via nationalized dispensaries. They have cover from the fact it has been done in Canada and US and would have appealed to the yuff vote.
    Medical exemption yes. Legalisation its doubtful it would actually bring in any money. Why would anyone switch to a more expensive taxed and regulated supplier when you can walk down the streets smoking it and nobody does anything at the moment? There's no incentive.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    Anorak said:

    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Ideally, I'd limit the vote to people exactly like me ;)
    We could go for the Diskworld's approach.

    Vetinari inclined his head, “Oh yes, if you recall Ankh-Morpork has dallied with several forms of democracy over the decades. At the moment we hold true to the fine tradition, One Man, One Vote. Fortuitously I am that one man, and my vote, is for you to take my place as Patrician of Ankh-Morpork upon my retirement.”
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Yep. Over £0.6 trillion missing - and that's just on two items....
    Are you a cretin?

    Or just in need of training about the difference between Capital (like the 40 or should we say 6 hospitals) and Revenue (like the £12500 NI change or should we say £9500)
    Both need accounting for. Capital doesn't just magic out of thin air.
    Surely they just print more money? Ta da!

    [Yes, I know]
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,689

    HYUFD said:
    Rich people having to use their own money to pay for things. Whatever next?

    HYUFD said:
    Rich people having to use their own money to pay for things. Whatever next?
    If they vote Labour they will get it free...
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    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    This Labour manifesto is not a programme for government - winning a majority is not feasible - but about framing future political debate. The ideas is that things thought not even worthy of discussion following the Thatcher revolution become at least a part of the conversation, merits and demerits considered just as happens with policies from other parties. It is, if I may demonstrate a little panache here, an attempt to move the "Overton Window". Which IMO is both welcome and necessary.

    How much will the window get moved if they get crushed at the election?
    Isn't kinabalu just accepting its an insurgency strategy - accepting that they have no chance of winning but might be able to stop the other side from winning. Throw enough crazy shit. Mumble some awkward, cringeworthy material on Overton window. Hope your core vote holds.

    But obviously not in Grimsby.

    Right?
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    I don't see the contradiction, Corbyn always rebels against a Labour government on issues like that.
    True.
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    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    This Labour manifesto is not a programme for government - winning a majority is not feasible - but about framing future political debate. The ideas is that things thought not even worthy of discussion following the Thatcher revolution become at least a part of the conversation, merits and demerits considered just as happens with policies from other parties. It is, if I may demonstrate a little panache here, an attempt to move the "Overton Window". Which IMO is both welcome and necessary.

    How much will the window get moved if they get crushed at the election?
    Isn't kinabalu just accepting its an insurgency strategy - accepting that they have no chance of winning but might be able to stop the other side from winning. Throw enough crazy shit. Mumble some awkward, cringeworthy material on Overton window. Hope your core vote holds.

    But obviously not in Grimsby.

    Right?
    If the Tories are 10% clear in Grimsby then it truly is Labour meltdown territory.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Taxing income from capital gains the same as income is a big change and potentially removes a lot of tax avoidance. Interesting to see how that plays with the public.
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    Byronic said:

    kinabalu said:

    This Labour manifesto is not a programme for government - winning a majority is not feasible - but about framing future political debate. The ideas is that things thought not even worthy of discussion following the Thatcher revolution become at least a part of the conversation, merits and demerits considered just as happens with policies from other parties. It is, if I may demonstrate a little panache here, an attempt to move the "Overton Window". Which IMO is both welcome and necessary.

    Maybe partly. But this is also a core vote, who-cares-about-Brexit manifesto. Labour are abandoning any hope in southern marginals, maybe forever; they want to shore up their position in big cities and the North/Wales.

    It is also a throw-it-and-see-what-sticks manifesto. It’s so insane it might just change the entire electoral narrative. Which is what they want.

    To my mind it’s a poor decision (it will surely play badly in London, for example), but I can see the logic

    It makes not promising to write off student debt and legalize cannabis even stranger. If you are going for the throw everything it at, you might as well have promised those.
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    FPT: Good afternoon, everyone.

    More tiny stakes football bets (usual disclaimer, I know nothing about football. Indeed, all four of the last set failed, although it's been pretty even overall). All prices Ladbrokes.

    Spurs and West Ham to draw 3.9
    Arsenal beat Southampton 1.5.
    Bournemouth and Wolves to draw 3.25.
    Leicester to beat Brighton, evens.
    Liverpool beat Crystal Palace 1.5.
    Everton to beat Norwich at 1.4.
    Watford Burnley to draw 3.25.
    Chelsea to beat Manchester City at 6.

    And an accumulator of all eight coming off, at 1937.83 (with boost, it's about 1550 without).

    Incidentally, is the Labour manifesto costed in the hundreds of billions or the trillions?
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679

    RobD said:

    The least Labour could have done is the legalized cannabis, which would definitely have actually brought in some extra tax revenue without depressing economic activity.

    Actually surprised that wasn't included.
    It honestly seemed like a no-brainer to me. At the very least, medical exemption via nationalized dispensaries. They have cover from the fact it has been done in Canada and US and would have appealed to the yuff vote.
    Medical exemption yes. Legalisation its doubtful it would actually bring in any money. Why would anyone switch to a more expensive taxed and regulated supplier when you can walk down the streets smoking it and nobody does anything at the moment? There's no incentive.
    Because once companies can make money off of something, the police are more willing to enforce it. And also, whilst people might know their local dealer, it is nicer and safer buying it from a shop.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Foxy said:

    Melanie Onn has been quite Brexity. Hasn't done her any good.

    https://twitter.com/GloriaDePiero/status/1185322346141376512?s=19

    Short of declaring war on Belgium no one is Brexity enough for the brothers.

    It might have done her good - maybe shed be doing worse without it.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465

    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
    It seems 'more of the same' is holding up pretty well against 'skills wallets' as a preferred option.
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    RobD said:

    The least Labour could have done is the legalized cannabis, which would definitely have actually brought in some extra tax revenue without depressing economic activity.

    Actually surprised that wasn't included.
    It honestly seemed like a no-brainer to me. At the very least, medical exemption via nationalized dispensaries. They have cover from the fact it has been done in Canada and US and would have appealed to the yuff vote.
    Medical exemption yes. Legalisation its doubtful it would actually bring in any money. Why would anyone switch to a more expensive taxed and regulated supplier when you can walk down the streets smoking it and nobody does anything at the moment? There's no incentive.
    The evidence from places like Colorado is they are making massive tax revenues. California less so, as the Mexican drug gangs are just growing it illegally and undercutting the cost.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    Arthur said:

    Oop North...Labour are for One Yorkshire with a Mayor of Yorkshire; the Liberal Democrats go further and back a Yorkshire Parliament. What's the Tory position?

    The Tory position is to impose a load of bollocks that the people of Yorkshire don't want, and then claim that is somehow a devolution of power.
    They could gain a lot of votes outside Yorkshire by proposing that Geoff Boycott be tagged and restricted to Yorkshire. When he lived in Sandbanks the local joke was that you could tell his house because when you pushed the bell it bawled out 'Booger Off!'.
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    rkrkrk said:

    Taxing income from capital gains the same as income is a big change and potentially removes a lot of tax avoidance. Interesting to see how that plays with the public.

    Well the media luuvies are going to be rather conflicted....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    Puzzled why Labour didn’t promise to write off existing student debt. This is what would really fire up young voters. They’ve thrown everything else in, they might as well have chucked this into the mix too!

    They can imply it again without promising it.
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    camelcamel Posts: 815
    alb1on said:

    Arthur said:

    Oop North...Labour are for One Yorkshire with a Mayor of Yorkshire; the Liberal Democrats go further and back a Yorkshire Parliament. What's the Tory position?

    The Tory position is to impose a load of bollocks that the people of Yorkshire don't want, and then claim that is somehow a devolution of power.
    They could gain a lot of votes outside Yorkshire by proposing that Geoff Boycott be tagged and restricted to Yorkshire. When he lived in Sandbanks the local joke was that you could tell his house because when you pushed the bell it bawled out 'Booger Off!'.
    He was happier in Woolley. And angrier in France!
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
    Clearly not! I noticed a few weeks ago that women, in particular, really dislike her.

    I still don’t quite know why. She seems OK to me. I like her accent.
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    eek said:

    Anorak said:

    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Ideally, I'd limit the vote to people exactly like me ;)
    We could go for the Diskworld's approach.

    Vetinari inclined his head, “Oh yes, if you recall Ankh-Morpork has dallied with several forms of democracy over the decades. At the moment we hold true to the fine tradition, One Man, One Vote. Fortuitously I am that one man, and my vote, is for you to take my place as Patrician of Ankh-Morpork upon my retirement.”
    Or we could use the model of the revolutionary new polling company YouGove, which exclusively surveys the views of Michael Gove. He is the perfect balanced sample.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
    Clearly not! I noticed a few weeks ago that women, in particular, really dislike her.

    I still don’t quite know why. She seems OK to me. I like her accent.
    "Bollocks to the Biggest Democratic Decision this Country has Made" as a slogan might have something to do with it.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Any update to your chart with today's new poll(s)?
    I saw MORI, was there another?
    I just knew about MORI but wasn't sure if there were any more.
    Here you go -- https://imgur.com/EG550Ln

    I should start charging a penny for each view. I'd have literally pounds.
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Any update to your chart with today's new poll(s)?
    I saw MORI, was there another?
    I just knew about MORI but wasn't sure if there were any more.
    Here you go -- https://imgur.com/EG550Ln

    I should start charging a penny for each view. I'd have literally pounds.
    Who can forget your fame of 2017 locals?
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,932
    An interesting set of local by-elections today. It is just possible that all could be gains by other parties. There is a SNP defence in Aberdeen, Labour defences in Cardiff and West Lancashire, a Green defence in Chichester, an Ind defence in Moray, and Brexit defence in West Sussex.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2019
    eek said:

    Anorak said:

    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Ideally, I'd limit the vote to people exactly like me ;)
    We could go for the Diskworld's approach.

    Vetinari inclined his head, “Oh yes, if you recall Ankh-Morpork has dallied with several forms of democracy over the decades. At the moment we hold true to the fine tradition, One Man, One Vote. Fortuitously I am that one man, and my vote, is for you to take my place as Patrician of Ankh-Morpork upon my retirement.”
    You realise spelling "Discworld" incorrectly will lead to you being suspended above a scorpion pit?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    If 4 year olds get the vote, then Boris better learn the words to "Wheels on the bus" pretty damned pronto......
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    kle4 said:

    Puzzled why Labour didn’t promise to write off existing student debt. This is what would really fire up young voters. They’ve thrown everything else in, they might as well have chucked this into the mix too!

    They can imply it again without promising it.
    Last time Labour were trying to walk a tight rope of sounding realistic, but this time other than JBOs nobody really believes this is fully costed and deliverable e.g see Stoke man in those focus groups.

    You might as well promise unicorns to any many people as possible.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Any update to your chart with today's new poll(s)?
    I saw MORI, was there another?
    I just knew about MORI but wasn't sure if there were any more.
    Here you go -- https://imgur.com/EG550Ln

    I should start charging a penny for each view. I'd have literally pounds.
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Any update to your chart with today's new poll(s)?
    I saw MORI, was there another?
    I just knew about MORI but wasn't sure if there were any more.
    Here you go -- https://imgur.com/EG550Ln

    I should start charging a penny for each view. I'd have literally pounds.
    Who can forget your fame of 2017 locals?
    Heady days. I have less free time now, so all you get is a crappy graph. :p
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    KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    edited November 2019
    Re Swindon, she is cringingly woke and uses phrases like "five white men"? As they say in Scotland, get tae fuck.
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    An observation on Labour's tax-raising policies which may not be picked up elsewhere:

    They make a very simplistic attempt to estimate the revenues from each of the tax grabs, with to be fair to them some allowance for behavioural changes. Some of the latter are even based on some research or Treasury estimates.

    However, you can't just add up the effects of behavioural changes as though they were independent, they are not.

    If the cumulative effect of all the tax grabs is draconian, even if the individual measures aren't too bad, then the behaviour change is going to be massive. For example, a rise in the income tax rate might lead a successful business owner to change their behaviour slightly (increased use of Venture Capital Trusts or something like that), with minor tax loss. However, a rise in the income tax rate plus a huge hike to CGT plus an increase in Dividend Tax plus an increase in Corporation Tax plus clobbering of company tax reliefs plus a levy on second homes etc etc is completely different. You leave the country, taking your business with you.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    BluerBlue said:

    eek said:

    Anorak said:

    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Ideally, I'd limit the vote to people exactly like me ;)
    We could go for the Diskworld's approach.

    Vetinari inclined his head, “Oh yes, if you recall Ankh-Morpork has dallied with several forms of democracy over the decades. At the moment we hold true to the fine tradition, One Man, One Vote. Fortuitously I am that one man, and my vote, is for you to take my place as Patrician of Ankh-Morpork upon my retirement.”
    Or we could use the model of the revolutionary new polling company YouGove, which exclusively surveys the views of Michael Gove. He is the perfect balanced sample.
    I think you have misspelled 'simple', and judging by the staged photo ops of him out running he is anything but perfectly balanced.
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    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Well said - it's utterly terrifying.

    So this is Labour's huge, albeit predictable, gamble. Will enough people be dazzled by the shiny parts, or will more be horrified by the shi**y ones? I really don't know at this point, but it feels like they might have overreached themselves a bit...
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    ArthurArthur Posts: 63
    edited November 2019
    The Tory campaign is running a site at LabourManifesto.co.uk, on which they allege that one of the things you should know "about Labour's 2019 manifesto" is that a Corbyn premiership would mean "two more referendums". That is a lie. Labour say in their manifesto that they will not grant a Section 30 order (i.e. another indyref) if they receive a request from the Scottish government.

    Will the implication that voting Labour means voting for a hung parliament actually win the Tories any votes? Won't it encourage people to ask what the Tories themselves might do in the event of a hung parliament?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2019

    An observation on Labour's tax-raising policies which may not be picked up elsewhere:

    They make a very simplistic attempt to estimate the revenues from each of the tax grabs, with to be fair to them some allowance for behavioural changes. Some of the latter are even based on some research or Treasury estimates.

    However, you can't just add up the effects of behavioural changes as though they were independent, they are not.

    If the cumulative effect of all the tax grabs is draconian, even if the individual measures aren't too bad, then the behaviour change is going to be massive. For example, a rise in the income tax rate might lead a successful business owner to change their behaviour slightly (increased use of Venture Capital Trusts or something like that), with minor tax loss. However, a rise in the income tax rate plus a huge hike to CGT plus an increase in Dividend Tax plus an increase in Corporation Tax plus clobbering of company tax reliefs plus a levy on second homes etc etc is completely different. You leave the country, taking your business with you.

    Richard that is far far too logical for the times we live in...burn the billionaires, burn the business owners, nationalize everything...
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    RobD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
    Clearly not! I noticed a few weeks ago that women, in particular, really dislike her.

    I still don’t quite know why. She seems OK to me. I like her accent.
    "Bollocks to the Biggest Democratic Decision this Country has Made" as a slogan might have something to do with it.
    But it isn’t that. I asked these women why they disliked Swinson. They admitted it was a reflexive, intuitive reaction. Swinson seems to annoy. One of those faces, maybe
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Arthur said:

    The Tory campaign is running a site at LabourManifesto.co.uk, on which they allege that one of the things you should know "about Labour's 2019 manifesto" is that a Corbyn premiership would mean "two more referendums". That is a lie. Labour say in their manifesto that they will not grant a Section 30 order (i.e. another indyref) if they receive a request from the Scottish government.

    Will the implication that voting Labour means voting for a hung parliament actually win the Tories any votes?

    Is it a lie? The manifesto says "in the early years", so still possible in later years of the parliament.
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    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited November 2019
    Arthur said:

    The Tory campaign is running a site at LabourManifesto.co.uk, on which they allege that one of the things you should know "about Labour's 2019 manifesto" is that a Corbyn premiership would mean "two more referendums". That is a lie. Labour say in their manifesto that they will not grant a Section 30 order (i.e. another indyref) if they receive a request from the Scottish government.

    Will the implication that voting Labour means voting for a hung parliament actually win the Tories any votes? Won't it encourage people to ask what the Tories themselves might do in the event of a hung parliament?

    Yars to votes.
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    For those of you who watch SKY News, the flagship 5pm early evening news programme with Mark Austin is coming to North Cadboll territory tomorrow. Mark is featuring Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross. It is planned to host it in Invergordon. Should be good. I'll certainly be watching it.
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    camelcamel Posts: 815

    An observation on Labour's tax-raising policies which may not be picked up elsewhere:

    They make a very simplistic attempt to estimate the revenues from each of the tax grabs, with to be fair to them some allowance for behavioural changes. Some of the latter are even based on some research or Treasury estimates.

    However, you can't just add up the effects of behavioural changes as though they were independent, they are not.

    If the cumulative effect of all the tax grabs is draconian, even if the individual measures aren't too bad, then the behaviour change is going to be massive. For example, a rise in the income tax rate might lead a successful business owner to change their behaviour slightly (increased use of Venture Capital Trusts or something like that), with minor tax loss. However, a rise in the income tax rate plus a huge hike to CGT plus an increase in Dividend Tax plus an increase in Corporation Tax plus clobbering of company tax reliefs plus a levy on second homes etc etc is completely different. You leave the country, taking your business with you.

    Or, you pray for Sindy and move to Kelso!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    The Grimsby poll suggests Labour is losing its leavers to the BXP and with it the seat.

    The lack of uptick in the LibDem vote could actually be good news for them, if it implies a stronger recovery in Remain leaning southern seats.

    I have just done what I am guessing is the YouGov panel poll. The list of candidates presented for my seat isn’t accurate, suggesting they haven’t done that much double checking.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Byronic said:

    RobD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
    Clearly not! I noticed a few weeks ago that women, in particular, really dislike her.

    I still don’t quite know why. She seems OK to me. I like her accent.
    "Bollocks to the Biggest Democratic Decision this Country has Made" as a slogan might have something to do with it.
    But it isn’t that. I asked these women why they disliked Swinson. They admitted it was a reflexive, intuitive reaction. Swinson seems to annoy. One of those faces, maybe
    It's her giant teeth. They follow you around the room....triggering some primal fear of sabre-toothed tigers, I reckon.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    Arthur said:

    The Tory campaign is running a site at LabourManifesto.co.uk, on which they allege that one of the things you should know "about Labour's 2019 manifesto" is that a Corbyn premiership would mean "two more referendums". That is a lie. Labour say in their manifesto that they will not grant a Section 30 order (i.e. another indyref) if they receive a request from the Scottish government.

    Will the implication that voting Labour means voting for a hung parliament actually win the Tories any votes? Won't it encourage people to ask what the Tories themselves might do in the event of a hung parliament?

    If I were Labour I would look to tie Topham and Guerin to a specific election lie, make a criminal complaint and seek to have their passports seized to prevent them leaving the country until the case concludes. Might discourage other foreigners from interfering in our elections.
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    ArthurArthur Posts: 63
    RobD said:

    Arthur said:

    The Tory campaign is running a site at LabourManifesto.co.uk, on which they allege that one of the things you should know "about Labour's 2019 manifesto" is that a Corbyn premiership would mean "two more referendums". That is a lie. Labour say in their manifesto that they will not grant a Section 30 order (i.e. another indyref) if they receive a request from the Scottish government.

    Will the implication that voting Labour means voting for a hung parliament actually win the Tories any votes?

    Is it a lie? The manifesto says "in the early years", so still possible in later years of the parliament.
    They don't say it's possible. They say a JC premiership definitely means two referendums, and they say that that is something that you have to know about the Labour manifesto.

    "All you need to know about Labour’s 2019 manifesto is that Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister means higher taxes for you and your family, the chaos of two more referendums and more indecision and delay on Brexit."
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2019
    Byronic said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    IFS - Labour proposing the most punitive corporate tax system in the world

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    Is it true that the most expensive parts of their manifesto weren't actually included in their costing?
    Yep. Over £0.6 trillion missing - and that's just on two items....
    Their costings are revenue based, not capital
    The first hours after an exit poll showing a Labour Govt. would see buttons pressed on the biggest flight of capital in human history.

    That would ensure revenues would crash.

    I certainly know of people preparing a metaphorical button to have their finger on, if required. They're watching polls very carefully. Singapore and Dubai will be very happy indeed if Labour wins, as I'm sure will be New York and Tokyo.
    How does a Brit protect wealth from a potential Corbyn government? Seriously. How???
    There are short, medium and long term plans.

    The first involves transferring out of stocks, shares, and other liquid investments likely to be affected by immediate changes made by the incoming government, moving cash into other currencies and maybe even commodities.

    The second is things like setting up offshore companies, accounts and trusts to hold less-liquid assets and accept dividend payments from overseas.

    The third stage is things like relocating company head offices, overseas listings, selling property and leaving the country. The full Richard Branson, if you will.

    It's important to note that people who have been working multinationally know this stuff well, they already deal with exit plans for other countries in which they operate, they may have thought about Brexit risk to the UK over the past couple of years, and their plans are already well advanced if required.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    RobD said:

    How much will the window get moved if they get crushed at the election?

    It depends on how badly crushed. But regardless, I think the party will find it almost impossible to revert to Blair Brown type social democracy a.k.a. "tinkering with the Thatcher settlement". And, as I say, for me that's no bad thing. However I know that many people, including plenty of non-Tories, disagree with me on this.
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    ‘Coo, you’re media trained!’ I tell him, but he laughs. ‘Actually I’ve never been trained in anything in my life.’
  • Options

    An observation on Labour's tax-raising policies which may not be picked up elsewhere:

    They make a very simplistic attempt to estimate the revenues from each of the tax grabs, with to be fair to them some allowance for behavioural changes. Some of the latter are even based on some research or Treasury estimates.

    However, you can't just add up the effects of behavioural changes as though they were independent, they are not.

    If the cumulative effect of all the tax grabs is draconian, even if the individual measures aren't too bad, then the behaviour change is going to be massive. For example, a rise in the income tax rate might lead a successful business owner to change their behaviour slightly (increased use of Venture Capital Trusts or something like that), with minor tax loss. However, a rise in the income tax rate plus a huge hike to CGT plus an increase in Dividend Tax plus an increase in Corporation Tax plus clobbering of company tax reliefs plus a levy on second homes etc etc is completely different. You leave the country, taking your business with you.

    Richard that is far far too logical for the times we live in...burn the billionaires, burn the business owners, nationalize everything...
    What is a shame is that people are not recognising this radicalisation is a direct result of QE giving a massive unearned increase in wealth to half the country whilst workers without significant asset wealth get shafted.

    A ten year repeat of the last decade and Corbynism will eventually win out and cause mayhem. It is time for those who are afraid of Corbynism to start recognising that unearned wealth is a massive issue.
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    So what about the question of anti-Semitism? He suddenly turns from Mr Affable to Mr Angry, as if someone has pressed a switch. ‘There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party,’ he bellows. Huh? How can he believe that when The Jewish Chronicle recently published a poll saying that half the British Jewish community would consider emigrating if Corbyn came to power? That is a pretty serious indictment, surely, if Jews are actually scared of living in Britain under Labour? ‘There is nothing, nothing, nothing in my life that has ever been racist or anti-Semitic in any way.’

    https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/jeremy-corbyn-labour-interview-election-antisemitism-brexit-a4290601.html
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    An observation on Labour's tax-raising policies which may not be picked up elsewhere:

    They make a very simplistic attempt to estimate the revenues from each of the tax grabs, with to be fair to them some allowance for behavioural changes. Some of the latter are even based on some research or Treasury estimates.

    However, you can't just add up the effects of behavioural changes as though they were independent, they are not.

    If the cumulative effect of all the tax grabs is draconian, even if the individual measures aren't too bad, then the behaviour change is going to be massive. For example, a rise in the income tax rate might lead a successful business owner to change their behaviour slightly (increased use of Venture Capital Trusts or something like that), with minor tax loss. However, a rise in the income tax rate plus a huge hike to CGT plus an increase in Dividend Tax plus an increase in Corporation Tax plus clobbering of company tax reliefs plus a levy on second homes etc etc is completely different. You leave the country, taking your business with you.

    I actually think the effect will be the opposite. Labour are closing down and rationalizing tax loopholes. So the effectiveness of their tax raises will be greater as there is less room for the kind of tricks you mention.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Arthur said:

    RobD said:

    Arthur said:

    The Tory campaign is running a site at LabourManifesto.co.uk, on which they allege that one of the things you should know "about Labour's 2019 manifesto" is that a Corbyn premiership would mean "two more referendums". That is a lie. Labour say in their manifesto that they will not grant a Section 30 order (i.e. another indyref) if they receive a request from the Scottish government.

    Will the implication that voting Labour means voting for a hung parliament actually win the Tories any votes?

    Is it a lie? The manifesto says "in the early years", so still possible in later years of the parliament.
    They don't say it's possible. They say a JC premiership definitely means two referendums, and they say that that is something that you have to know about the Labour manifesto.

    "All you need to know about Labour’s 2019 manifesto is that Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister means higher taxes for you and your family, the chaos of two more referendums and more indecision and delay on Brexit."
    Why say it's only ruled out for two years when the duration of a typical parliament is five?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,689

    FPT: Good afternoon, everyone.

    More tiny stakes football bets (usual disclaimer, I know nothing about football. Indeed, all four of the last set failed, although it's been pretty even overall). All prices Ladbrokes.

    Spurs and West Ham to draw 3.9
    Arsenal beat Southampton 1.5.
    Bournemouth and Wolves to draw 3.25.
    Leicester to beat Brighton, evens.
    Liverpool beat Crystal Palace 1.5.
    Everton to beat Norwich at 1.4.
    Watford Burnley to draw 3.25.
    Chelsea to beat Manchester City at 6.

    And an accumulator of all eight coming off, at 1937.83 (with boost, it's about 1550 without).

    Incidentally, is the Labour manifesto costed in the hundreds of billions or the trillions?

    Spurs win (new manager, West Ham in poor run)
    Arsenal win (good at home)
    Man City home win

    Otherwise I would agree.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    Byronic said:

    RobD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Any idiot Remainer who votes tactically against the Tories and risks this repulsive communist lunacy is a fucking moron who DESERVES to have their nice Home Counties house seized by the Corbynite Wealth Gestapo. Wise up you twats.

    Someone or other was predicting an epochal Swinsonian miracle that would see the LDs replace Labour to become the sensible, centre left choice. Is that not happening now?
    Clearly not! I noticed a few weeks ago that women, in particular, really dislike her.

    I still don’t quite know why. She seems OK to me. I like her accent.
    "Bollocks to the Biggest Democratic Decision this Country has Made" as a slogan might have something to do with it.
    But it isn’t that. I asked these women why they disliked Swinson. They admitted it was a reflexive, intuitive reaction. Swinson seems to annoy. One of those faces, maybe
    It's her giant teeth. They follow you around the room....triggering some primal fear of sabre-toothed tigers, I reckon.
    At the risk of generalising wildly, English women voters seem to have an aversion to female politicians with Scottish accents. There seems to be an instinctive aversion to Jo, Ruth and Nicola, when they talk, that simply wasn't there with their male counterparts.
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    Right. So what about the question of anti-Semitism? He suddenly turns from Mr Affable to Mr Angry, as if someone has pressed a switch. ‘There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party,’ he bellows. Huh? How can he believe that when The Jewish Chronicle recently published a poll saying that half the British Jewish community would consider emigrating if Corbyn came to power? That is a pretty serious indictment, surely, if Jews are actually scared of living in Britain under Labour? ‘There is nothing, nothing, nothing in my life that has ever been racist or anti-Semitic in any way.’ What about the mural he approved of (it showed a group of hook-nosed bankers playing a game of Monopoly on the backs of huddled dark-skinned people, and could have come straight from Nazi Germany)?

    ‘I didn’t approve of the mural. I simply asked the question — why is this mural being removed? The following day, the council decided to remove it and I looked at it and said yes you’re right.’ How long had it been there? ‘Not long. A few weeks. Look. It’s been removed and I’m glad it was.’ But there are new anti-Semitic stories almost every day, one last weekend about Dan Carden singing ‘Hey Jews’ on the bus. ‘What’s that got to do with me?’ Well he’s a Labour candidate isn’t he? ‘It was alleged the song was sung. I was asked about it and said if this is true, it is appalling, and no way would I condone it. He denies it and I await the evidence.’ Waiting seems to be his default position on everything. Why can’t he just call the bloke into his office and sack him?
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    So what about the question of anti-Semitism? He suddenly turns from Mr Affable to Mr Angry, as if someone has pressed a switch. ‘There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party,’ he bellows. Huh? How can he believe that when The Jewish Chronicle recently published a poll saying that half the British Jewish community would consider emigrating if Corbyn came to power? That is a pretty serious indictment, surely, if Jews are actually scared of living in Britain under Labour? ‘There is nothing, nothing, nothing in my life that has ever been racist or anti-Semitic in any way.’

    https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/jeremy-corbyn-labour-interview-election-antisemitism-brexit-a4290601.html

    This utter ****** could be PM in a few weeks. :cold_sweat:
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Anorak said:

    Byronic said:

    I wonder if the its the lib dems who should be concerned about the labour manifesto.

    IF there's anything to put a gigantic rocket up the backside of tory waverers in the shires, its surely this.

    Obviously, as I said last-thread. This manifesto returns a swathe of wealthy southern seats to the Tories. Corbyn is Chavez, without the careful costings.

    He’s far far worse than any Brexit. Affluent English people will shudder and suffer Boris.
    I'm not there yet, but it wouldn't take much of a lift in the Labour numbers to make me hold my nose.

    [West London; Labour seat; was Tory seat in 2010]
    Ealing Central and Acton? If so, I’d stick with LD, as I think they have a chance of pulling it off. I’m in this constituency and voted for Rupa Huq in 2015 and 2017. Nothing on earth would persuade me to do so for a third time, so I and Mrs Nashe will be voting LD, like so many other former Lab voters round here. She increased her majority spectacularly in 2017 on the back of Tory remain votes, and if they transfer to LD - as they should - I think this could be one of the major surprises of the night.
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    TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Re Swindon, she is cringingly woke and uses phrases like "five white men"? As they say in Scotland, get tae fuck.

    "#okboomer"

    (Hint: she's not after your vote)
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    Re Swindon, she is cringingly woke and uses phrases like "five white men"? As they say in Scotland, get tae fuck.

    Yes, that's my gripe with her.
    I want to like the Lib Dems, really I do. But they seem to be wholly focused on a narrow young metropolitan core vote.
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    I see Rachael Riley is getting the hate mob treatment again.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    edited November 2019
    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history
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    Corbyn was in his is jumper-wearing, vegan element at Labour’s manifesto when he quoted poet Pablo Neruda:

    “As the writer Pablo Neruda wrote so beautifully: ‘You can cut all the flowers but you cannot keep Spring from coming’.”

    Guido immediately thought the quote Corbyn chose had Maoist undertones from the dictator’s ‘let 100 flowers bloom’ campaign; however it seems Corbyn was channelling a different brutal communist entirely – as Neruda is, in fact, one of history’s most famous Stalin supporters.

    https://order-order.com/2019/11/21/corbyn-endorsed-stalinist-manifesto-launch/
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Byronic said:

    Maybe partly. But this is also a core vote, who-cares-about-Brexit manifesto. Labour are abandoning any hope in southern marginals, maybe forever; they want to shore up their position in big cities and the North/Wales.

    It is also a throw-it-and-see-what-sticks manifesto. It’s so insane it might just change the entire electoral narrative. Which is what they want.

    To my mind it’s a poor decision (it will surely play badly in London, for example), but I can see the logic.

    Certainly this GE is defence only for Labour. Will the manifesto cost them net seats on Dec 12th? We will see. Or rather I suppose we won't, not definitively, because we won't know for sure how a more restrained offer would have impacted things. It will be fascinating how Labour do. For me, if they score 230+ the Corbyn project - if not the eponymous - probably survives.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    Anorak said:

    eek said:

    Anorak said:

    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Speaking as someone who has more direct experience of the maturity and judgement of sixteen year olds than most, can I say that lowering the voting age is a terrible idea.

    What is the judgement of dementia sufferers like? They vote.
    What is the judgement of alcoholics like? They vote.
    But they are proposing extending the suffrage to include extra people with terrible judgement, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want to make voting illegal for dementia sufferers?
    Indeed you might as well let 4 year olds vote. Which would make elections a great deal more fun. Personally I am sufficiently crazy that I would put it back up to 21.

    Ideally, I'd limit the vote to people exactly like me ;)
    We could go for the Diskworld's approach.

    Vetinari inclined his head, “Oh yes, if you recall Ankh-Morpork has dallied with several forms of democracy over the decades. At the moment we hold true to the fine tradition, One Man, One Vote. Fortuitously I am that one man, and my vote, is for you to take my place as Patrician of Ankh-Morpork upon my retirement.”
    You realise spelling "Discworld" incorrectly will lead to you being suspended above a scorpion pit?
    Sorry I'm in the middle of writing something which is targeting the US market. If I have to write license as a noun one more time I will kill someone.
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    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history

    The problem is even if Jezza crashes and burns in 3 weeks, the Labour party has been overrun by people like him. The Southam Observer / Rachael Riley types have left the building.
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    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    How much will the window get moved if they get crushed at the election?

    It depends on how badly crushed. But regardless, I think the party will find it almost impossible to revert to Blair Brown type social democracy a.k.a. "tinkering with the Thatcher settlement". And, as I say, for me that's no bad thing. However I know that many people, including plenty of non-Tories, disagree with me on this.
    If labour do get badly beaten I expect the more moderate labour mps will defect to the lib dems in the absence of the end of Corbyn and his marxist cabal
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,687

    There's your headline. Just f##k business, what is it good for anyway.

    That was one of Johnson`d throwaway remarks, wasn`t it? When he wasn`t really thinking...... Stupid Labour, just picking up all the miserable Tory policies.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    BluerBlue said:

    So what about the question of anti-Semitism? He suddenly turns from Mr Affable to Mr Angry, as if someone has pressed a switch. ‘There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party,’ he bellows. Huh? How can he believe that when The Jewish Chronicle recently published a poll saying that half the British Jewish community would consider emigrating if Corbyn came to power? That is a pretty serious indictment, surely, if Jews are actually scared of living in Britain under Labour? ‘There is nothing, nothing, nothing in my life that has ever been racist or anti-Semitic in any way.’

    https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/jeremy-corbyn-labour-interview-election-antisemitism-brexit-a4290601.html

    This utter ****** could be PM in a few weeks. :cold_sweat:
    No he won’t he will crash and burn with this manifesto. If it didn’t have the crap trade union law changes and the senseless nationalization’s it could have flown and been seen as progressive but a return to the seventies is ridiculous. Voting lib dem won’t let labour in as they have no chance.
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    Surely the Lib Dems will find it hard to hold on to Tory switchers after the Labour manifesto promises to do to their finances what Daenerys did to King's Landing?
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history

    The problem is even if Jezza crashes and burns in 3 weeks, the Labour party has been overrun by people like him. The Southam Observer / Rachael Riley types have left the building.
    Corral the bastards and drive them into the sea
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history

    Unusual and refreshing to see an ardent Donald Trump fan so incensed about racism. Hats off to you.
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    ‘Coo, you’re media trained!’ I tell him, but he laughs. ‘Actually I’ve never been trained in anything in my life.’
    Interesting article "He's a nice bloke who'll never be Prime Minister" I wonder if that's why he gets so angry - he thinks of himself as so nice [and reasonable and caring] that it is a direct attack on his self-image when someone questions his stance on anti-Semitism, terrorists and the like.
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    O/T is it just me or is Mr Schiff who is heading up the impeachment proceedings the spitting image of Charles Logan, the corrupt President of the United States that Jack Bauer brings down in the 5th season of 24?
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    nichomar said:

    BluerBlue said:

    So what about the question of anti-Semitism? He suddenly turns from Mr Affable to Mr Angry, as if someone has pressed a switch. ‘There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party,’ he bellows. Huh? How can he believe that when The Jewish Chronicle recently published a poll saying that half the British Jewish community would consider emigrating if Corbyn came to power? That is a pretty serious indictment, surely, if Jews are actually scared of living in Britain under Labour? ‘There is nothing, nothing, nothing in my life that has ever been racist or anti-Semitic in any way.’

    https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/jeremy-corbyn-labour-interview-election-antisemitism-brexit-a4290601.html

    This utter ****** could be PM in a few weeks. :cold_sweat:
    No he won’t he will crash and burn with this manifesto. If it didn’t have the crap trade union law changes and the senseless nationalization’s it could have flown and been seen as progressive but a return to the seventies is ridiculous. Voting lib dem won’t let labour in as they have no chance.
    Yes, just confirms for me that they’ll lose seats in the north to the Tories and in London to the LDs. They really are in for a pasting.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873

    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history

    Jester is a Racist the Tory party is racist

    Jezza is a lifelong anti racist
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    kinabalu said:

    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history

    Unusual and refreshing to see an ardent Donald Trump fan so incensed about racism. Hats off to you.
    Trumps not being investigated for institutional racism, corbyn is
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    edited November 2019
    Just wow!!! Labour are going to take on the legendary Lynne Barber?

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1197520012296241152
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    O/T is it just me or is Mr Schiff who is heading up the impeachment proceedings the spitting image of Charles Logan, the corrupt President of the United States that Jack Bauer brings down in the 5th season of 24?

    In word and deed and looks
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    TimT said:

    ‘Coo, you’re media trained!’ I tell him, but he laughs. ‘Actually I’ve never been trained in anything in my life.’
    Interesting article "He's a nice bloke who'll never be Prime Minister" I wonder if that's why he gets so angry - he thinks of himself as so nice [and reasonable and caring] that it is a direct attack on his self-image when someone questions his stance on anti-Semitism, terrorists and the like.
    My take is something along those lines. It is the sort of a Dunning Kroger Effect, he is so thick he has total confidence that his ideas are right and have been so for 40 years. He isn't going to change them no matter what and when people challenge those ideas might not be correct, he gets very angry.
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    Anyway Sky and BBC have switched on their interminable live broadcast from Trumps impeachment.. They are so out of touch with ordinary folk in their excessive devotion to US politics. We even have the BBC with the idiotic news programme 'beyond 100 days' with joint London and Washingtin anchors

    And they wonder why the populace despair at the London media
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    Just wow!!! Labour are going to take on the legendary Lynne Barber?

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1197520012296241152

    Surely that interview will have been recorded.
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    This Labour manifesto is not a programme for government - winning a majority is not feasible - but about framing future political debate. The ideas is that things thought not even worthy of discussion following the Thatcher revolution become at least a part of the conversation, merits and demerits considered just as happens with policies from other parties. It is, if I may demonstrate a little panache here, an attempt to move the "Overton Window". Which IMO is both welcome and necessary.

    How much will the window get moved if they get crushed at the election?
    Isn't kinabalu just accepting its an insurgency strategy - accepting that they have no chance of winning but might be able to stop the other side from winning. Throw enough crazy shit. Mumble some awkward, cringeworthy material on Overton window. Hope your core vote holds.

    But obviously not in Grimsby.

    Right?
    If the Tories are 10% clear in Grimsby then it truly is Labour meltdown territory.
    What do you define as meltdown? My model projects the Tories 9% ahead in Grimsby with a 62 seat majority and Labour on 204.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    The problem is even if Jezza crashes and burns in 3 weeks, the Labour party has been overrun by people like him. The Southam Observer / Rachael Riley types have left the building.

    Was Rachel Riley a Labour Party member pre Corbyn era?

    Genuine question - I didn't think she was but I could be wrong.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    O/T is it just me or is Mr Schiff who is heading up the impeachment proceedings the spitting image of Charles Logan, the corrupt President of the United States that Jack Bauer brings down in the 5th season of 24?

    That's a very good spot! Which is which?

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    This Labour manifesto is not a programme for government - winning a majority is not feasible - but about framing future political debate. The ideas is that things thought not even worthy of discussion following the Thatcher revolution become at least a part of the conversation, merits and demerits considered just as happens with policies from other parties. It is, if I may demonstrate a little panache here, an attempt to move the "Overton Window". Which IMO is both welcome and necessary.

    How much will the window get moved if they get crushed at the election?
    Isn't kinabalu just accepting its an insurgency strategy - accepting that they have no chance of winning but might be able to stop the other side from winning. Throw enough crazy shit. Mumble some awkward, cringeworthy material on Overton window. Hope your core vote holds.

    But obviously not in Grimsby.

    Right?
    If the Tories are 10% clear in Grimsby then it truly is Labour meltdown territory.
    What do you define as meltdown? My model projects the Tories 9% ahead in Grimsby with a 62 seat majority and Labour on 204.
    The Tories with a 62 seat majority after nine years. :D
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    "There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party," he bellows.
    Great interview with Jeremy Corbyn in the Standard.

    https://t.co/CPFWX4Yisu

    I cant wait for this racist piece of crap and his racist enabler supporters to be a footnote in history

    Jester is a Racist the Tory party is racist

    Jezza is a lifelong anti racist
    Bullshit. Hes an enabler of institutional anti semitism.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980

    Anyway Sky and BBC have switched on their interminable live broadcast from Trumps impeachment.. They are so out of touch with ordinary folk in their excessive devotion to US politics. We even have the BBC with the idiotic news programme 'beyond 100 days' with joint London and Washingtin anchors

    And they wonder why the populace despair at the London media

    You might not like it, but what happens in the US is very relevant to us and the rest of the world.
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    O/T is it just me or is Mr Schiff who is heading up the impeachment proceedings the spitting image of Charles Logan, the corrupt President of the United States that Jack Bauer brings down in the 5th season of 24?

    I’m fairly certain he’s a fictional character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Schiff_(Law_%26_Order)
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    rkrkrk said:

    An observation on Labour's tax-raising policies which may not be picked up elsewhere:

    They make a very simplistic attempt to estimate the revenues from each of the tax grabs, with to be fair to them some allowance for behavioural changes. Some of the latter are even based on some research or Treasury estimates.

    However, you can't just add up the effects of behavioural changes as though they were independent, they are not.

    If the cumulative effect of all the tax grabs is draconian, even if the individual measures aren't too bad, then the behaviour change is going to be massive. For example, a rise in the income tax rate might lead a successful business owner to change their behaviour slightly (increased use of Venture Capital Trusts or something like that), with minor tax loss. However, a rise in the income tax rate plus a huge hike to CGT plus an increase in Dividend Tax plus an increase in Corporation Tax plus clobbering of company tax reliefs plus a levy on second homes etc etc is completely different. You leave the country, taking your business with you.

    I actually think the effect will be the opposite. Labour are closing down and rationalizing tax loopholes. So the effectiveness of their tax raises will be greater as there is less room for the kind of tricks you mention.
    You think Labour plan to stop people leaving the country?
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    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,785
    Great precedent for Labour's windfall tax on oil companies:



    Memories of job losses, house price falls etc. could shift some SLAB support to SCon in Aberdeen and NE Scotland.
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