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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Buttigieg now nine points clear in Iowa

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Andy_JS said:
    Interesting Bristol NW is the one Barnesian and I were crunching the numbers on back and forth yesterday and came to the same conclusion.
    If Labour are under pressure there, they’re in big trouble. Not only is it a bellwether, but it suggests that the higher turnout that rescued them last time isn’t going to be there this time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Alistair said:

    SNP starting to talk up their chances in East Dunbartonshire. Surely that is unwise?

    Or perhaps they have listened to Swinson
  • nunu2 said:

    SunnyJim said:
    Just a hunch but i'm guessing Survation just fell out of favour with the keyboard Corbynistas.
    Wow.

    I was waiting for Survation......


    As I said the leave north is going Tory.
    This website overreacts to any move or trend either way.

    So chill.

    A reasonable Tory majority is currently looking likely. But a lot can change in 3 weeks.
    3 weeks ? It’s only 23 days now until polls open.

    It’s three weeks until the final 72 hours of the campaign. You can add those extra 3 days in if you really like.

    My point is a lot can change in a short time very quickly, and not a single vote has been cast yet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    eristdoof said:

    The recent trend has been for ex-PMs to leave the HoC at the next GE, if not before. Assuming Mrs May keeps her seat she will be bucking this trend. Before Mrs T, this seemed to be the norm with Callaghan, Wilson and Heath all reelected after having been PM.

    For everything that can be said of Mrs May, she does genuinely care about public service, and representing the people of Maidenhead.

    For all his many faults, Gordon Brown stood in 2015 too, although he was overcome by the SNP wave at that election.
    No he didn’t. The Labour candidate was Kenny Selbie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkcaldy_and_Cowdenbeath_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
    Damn, you're right, and too late to edit now. Why did I think he did stand?
    I think we would have remembered "Were you up for Brown?"
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    the various different plans came together at the end.

    Not sure Vettel and Leclerc would described it quite like that!
    I think that's the first time I ever remember two Ferraris taking each other out, although they both got involved in a big one on the first lap in Singapore a couple of years ago. Rule number one of motorsport - don't crash into your team mate!
    But not Vettel’s first waltz with a teammate....
    Indeed, as Mark Webber will testify.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    SunnyJim said:

    Andy_JS said:


    The Tories almost automatically getting a 5% swing from BRX in this Survation poll due to Farage's party only standing in 274 seats, but interesting that they also seem to have taken some support from the LDs as well.

    This must be a horrible election for southern remainers.

    Brexit or Corbyn.
    The forthcoming YouGov had questions aimed directly at that.

    Meanwhile the shock when voters discover that far from being sorted, the Tories will start bickering over it again, will be something to behold.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    SNP starting to talk up their chances in East Dunbartonshire. Surely that is unwise?

    Or perhaps they have listened to Swinson
    That would be the crowning glory of a wretched campaign......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614

    Mr. Sandpit, I was really surprised a full safety car was deemed necessary.

    I think that was more about trying to make things exciting at the end rather than safety.

    "Is that technical support? I can't get my F1 race interesting any more...."

    "Have you tried turning the race off and on again?"
  • IanB2 said:

    SunnyJim said:

    Andy_JS said:


    The Tories almost automatically getting a 5% swing from BRX in this Survation poll due to Farage's party only standing in 274 seats, but interesting that they also seem to have taken some support from the LDs as well.

    This must be a horrible election for southern remainers.

    Brexit or Corbyn.
    The forthcoming YouGov had questions aimed directly at that.

    Meanwhile the shock when voters discover that far from being sorted, the Tories will start bickering over it again, will be something to behold.
    Unlikely IMO unless there's only a narrow victory.

    A healthy majority would be the Tories first really healthy majority in decades (2015 was an unexpected majority but just a slim one). Combined with the PM having been the face of Brexit and the most irreconcilable bastards of 2019 being out of the party now ... I think Johnson if he has the numbers will have more than enough political capital to get his deal through, negotiate an FTA and get that through.

    I think the FTA if Britain has a stable government will be less complicated than people think. The Europeans are fed up with Brexit too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
  • malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    SNP starting to talk up their chances in East Dunbartonshire. Surely that is unwise?

    Or perhaps they have listened to Swinson
    That would be the crowning glory of a wretched campaign......
    Revoke East Dunbartonshire would be hilarious.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
    I keep saying that I am not particularly a Boris fan (morals and lack of discipline mainly) but he has always been able to reach parts of the electorate that other Tories couldn't (Ruth apart).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    murali_s said:

    Polls say it all at the moment.

    It's now a question of how large the majority is going to be.

    Progressive politics in the country needs a reset. The right / hard-right are cruising!

    The UK is going to pay a huge price and it will unravel very fast. You have been warned.

    Buck up, its been a good week for the Tories but theres a long way to go.
  • Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
    I keep saying that I am not particularly a Boris fan (morals and lack of discipline mainly) but he has always been able to reach parts of the electorate that other Tories couldn't (Ruth apart).
    Boris is clearly Marmite. He provokes reactions. They are not always positive -especially amongst ladies of a cetain age. But you do also hear great enthusiasm - "Boris is the best thing that has happened to politics since Maggie!" More intriguing is the often heard comment "Boris makes me laugh...." And it is generally "with", but I'm sure there must be some "ats" too...

    Either way, nobody laughs at Corbyn..... "That joke isn't funny any more. It's too close to home, too near the bone...."
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    It's treating all migrants equally.
  • Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    What dog whistling?

    This has been the most honest and liberal campaign on migration in at least a decade. No more talk of slashing numbers to the tens of thousands.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469

    nunu2 said:

    SunnyJim said:
    Just a hunch but i'm guessing Survation just fell out of favour with the keyboard Corbynistas.
    Wow.

    I was waiting for Survation......


    As I said the leave north is going Tory.
    This website overreacts to any move or trend either way.

    So chill.

    A reasonable Tory majority is currently looking likely. But a lot can change in 3 weeks.
    3 weeks ? It’s only 23 days now until polls open.

    And 8 days to postal voting commencing
    Also eight days to register.
    https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
    Postal votes going out on Friday in my area
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited November 2019
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
    I keep saying that I am not particularly a Boris fan (morals and lack of discipline mainly) but he has always been able to reach parts of the electorate that other Tories couldn't (Ruth apart).
    Boris is the only Tory I think who could win a majority at the moment.

    See too the data below

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1196145937028128769?s=20

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1196147262411431937?s=20
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Pretty poor interview with Leadsom on R4.
  • ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    eristdoof said:

    The recent trend has been for ex-PMs to leave the HoC at the next GE, if not before. Assuming Mrs May keeps her seat she will be bucking this trend. Before Mrs T, this seemed to be the norm with Callaghan, Wilson and Heath all reelected after having been PM.

    For everything that can be said of Mrs May, she does genuinely care about public service, and representing the people of Maidenhead.

    For all his many faults, Gordon Brown stood in 2015 too, although he was overcome by the SNP wave at that election.
    No he didn’t. The Labour candidate was Kenny Selbie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkcaldy_and_Cowdenbeath_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
    Damn, you're right, and too late to edit now. Why did I think he did stand?
    He remained an active and hardworking backbench constituency MP. So in a sense you were right. But he made the decision not to stand in 2015 quite well in advance - I think even before the 2014 referendum.
    Brown announced he was standing down in December six months before the election. Those of a cynical disposition say it was because he knew he would lose.

  • IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    No, it's based on our vote becoming less efficient because of the BP withdrawing from however many marginal seats and all currently held Con ones. Additionally, we may build up big vote share in some northern towns and not see any kind of real breakthrough in terms of seats.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    VW makes a car called the e-up! Who knew? Is it selling well in Yorks?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    What low level of Labour MP's would force Jezza to resign?
  • MaxPB said:

    Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    It's treating all migrants equally.

    Indeed - like shit. The implication that EU citizens living in the UK do not currently pay taxes and contribute to the funding of the NHS is despicable. But par for the course.

  • Mr. Mark, the race was shaping up pretty nicely anyway.

    Mr. B, true, but Vettel's far from alone in that. Hamilton and Rosberg collided at Belgium and Spain in 2016, I think (certainly that year for the latter), and I believe Damon Hill, whilst leading for Jordan but being caught by team mate Ralf Schumacher, essentially told the team that if his team mate tried to pass him there would be a massive crash.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    What low level of Labour MP's would force Jezza to resign?
    Any number that means Boris is PM. I think the real question is what level would force the party membership to not pick a corbynite as his replacement.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    SunnyJim said:
    So even Gold Standard Survation now has the Tories lead at 1983 landslide levels
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    Arthur said:

    I'm watching the ITV film about Jennifer Arcuri and Boris Johnson. She's quite a character. There's been no mention yet that at the time he was in a relationship with this "highly persuasive" foreigner, he was not only Mayor of London but also attending Cabinet meetings... So the relationship would have been vetted, right?

    It's a shame that Boris wasn't attended to by the vet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    Also, what level of mps sees boris resign?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    It's treating all migrants equally.

    Indeed - like shit. The implication that EU citizens living in the UK do not currently pay taxes and contribute to the funding of the NHS is despicable. But par for the course.

    So what controls would you apply?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited November 2019

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    kle4 said:

    Also, what level of mps sees boris resign?

    Anything that is lower than 326.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    nunu2 said:

    camel said:

    Survation: on normal weightings, undecideds split 49:124 male:female.

    Make of that what you will.

    Labour's polling for males is half that of the Cons. 18.3% : 39.7%
    Labour's polling for females is on par. 24.5% : 25.0 %

    I think the undecideds, should they make up their mind, will add a little to the Labour polling here.

    If you want to know which side is losing, check out who is trying to "un-skew" the polls.
    I'm afraid I have no skin in that particular game.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
    I keep saying that I am not particularly a Boris fan (morals and lack of discipline mainly) but he has always been able to reach parts of the electorate that other Tories couldn't (Ruth apart).
    Boris is clearly Marmite. He provokes reactions. They are not always positive -especially amongst ladies of a cetain age. But you do also hear great enthusiasm - "Boris is the best thing that has happened to politics since Maggie!" More intriguing is the often heard comment "Boris makes me laugh...." And it is generally "with", but I'm sure there must be some "ats" too...

    Either way, nobody laughs at Corbyn..... "That joke isn't funny any more. It's too close to home, too near the bone...."
    Boris is a bit Marmite but he is the only politician around who can genuinely make people laugh at something funny he says or does and cheer people up.

    Its a pretty compelling proposition against the labour "everything is terrible " message.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    What low level of Labour MP's would force Jezza to resign?
    Any number that means Boris is PM. I think the real question is what level would force the party membership to not pick a corbynite as his replacement.
    Indeed. If the lesson Labour learn from crushing defeat is to pick a remainer version of Jez then they will be out of power for another cycle taking us to potentially 2029 before they are in with a shot of power.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    IanB2 said:

    VW makes a car called the e-up! Who knew? Is it selling well in Yorks?

    I believe Toyota MR2 sales in France were always a little tricky.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    It's treating all migrants equally.

    Indeed - like shit. The implication that EU citizens living in the UK do not currently pay taxes and contribute to the funding of the NHS is despicable. But par for the course.

    So what controls would you apply?

    Insinuating EU citizens living in the UK do not contribute to the funding of the NHS is not about controls, it is about dog whistling. But if it were down to me I would continue with reciprocity. It serves us very well. Without it, there will be far more elderly people requiring NHS treatment than is currently the case.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    Chuka and Luciana probably won't be MPs.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Also, what level of mps sees boris resign?

    Anything that is lower than 326.
    Nah, he'd hang on with 320-odd.

    Although I think your Nowcast is pretty much spot-on. A Conservative majority of 80-odd, with Labour sub-200 and the LDs in the mid-20s.

    The longer-term danger is (simply) that I don't think Boris Johnson is cut out for the job of PM. I think he'll always choose the easy way out, over dealing with deeper problems. It will always be easier to cut taxes and increase spending, rather than to make hard decisions.
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Another classic example of correlation, not causality. On this basis sexual promiscuity causes people to be elected as MPs (and may suggest that Boris will end up as Emperor of the Universe).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    It's treating all migrants equally.

    Indeed - like shit. The implication that EU citizens living in the UK do not currently pay taxes and contribute to the funding of the NHS is despicable. But par for the course.

    So what controls would you apply?

    Insinuating EU citizens living in the UK do not contribute to the funding of the NHS is not about controls, it is about dog whistling. But if it were down to me I would continue with reciprocity. It serves us very well. Without it, there will be far more elderly people requiring NHS treatment than is currently the case.

    So no controls for some and treating migrants differently depending on which country they come from? Tell, me who is the xenophobe?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    If theres one thing proven recently its that LDs overtaking labour is very far from inevitable even with good conditions.
  • It’s very sweet that some people are getting excited about the Arcuri affair or Russian funding as possible threats to Johnson’s premiership. What they fail to understand is that such is his privilege he can lie, lie and lie again, and get away with it. Like Prince Andrew and other members of the gilded elite he will never be held to account for his actions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    High Court to rule today on whether Swinson and Corbyn must be included in first TV debate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50450902
  • alb1on said:

    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Another classic example of correlation, not causality. On this basis sexual promiscuity causes people to be elected as MPs (and may suggest that Boris will end up as Emperor of the Universe).
    Boris, Trump, Berlusconi -- you may have hit upon something there!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    It’s very sweet that some people are getting excited about the Arcuri affair or Russian funding as possible threats to Johnson’s premiership. What they fail to understand is that such is his privilege he can lie, lie and lie again, and get away with it. Like Prince Andrew and other members of the gilded elite he will never be held to account for his actions.

    You omitted to mention any Labour leaders in your list of dissemblers....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    alb1on said:

    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Another classic example of correlation, not causality. On this basis sexual promiscuity causes people to be elected as MPs (and may suggest that Boris will end up as Emperor of the Universe).
    I suspect that sexual promiscuity is a definite advantage in seeking high political office.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited November 2019
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    If theres one thing proven recently its that LDs overtaking labour is very far from inevitable even with good conditions.
    If not then thanks to FPTP the Tories can hope to be in office at least another decade if Labour stick with its hard left leadership
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    edited November 2019
    Right now, I wouldn’t want to predict Tory seats any more accurately than between 290 to 410.

    Helpful, I know.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    alb1on said:

    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Another classic example of correlation, not causality. On this basis sexual promiscuity causes people to be elected as MPs (and may suggest that Boris will end up as Emperor of the Universe).
    See, Jim Hacker at least was able to get the shagger candidate to stand down.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    Chuka and Luciana probably won't be MPs.
    Both are now the Tories main challengers based on constituency polls, certainly Luciana
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    Chuka and Luciana probably won't be MPs.
    Both are now the Tories main challengers based on constituency polls, certainly Luciana
    Yes, but I don't think they will win. We did the Ashcroft constituency polls to death in 2015 and the national swing proved to be a much bigger wave than anything happening locally.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    Chuka and Luciana probably won't be MPs.
    Two friends of mine in Golders Green (Conservative, apolitical, Leavers, but definitely soft-Leavers) have just told me they're voting for Luciana. (This is a single anecdote, as they're husband and wife.)

    No particular reason, but they hate Corbyn, and she seems "like a nice lass".

    Which just goes to show, voters are a strange bunch.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Given the huge lead and the inevitability of victory Johnson’s decision to dig an ever deeper hole for himself on the FTA is bizarre. The dog whistling xenophobia on EU immigration is also highly regrettable, but par for the Tory course, I guess.

    It's treating all migrants equally.

    Indeed - like shit. The implication that EU citizens living in the UK do not currently pay taxes and contribute to the funding of the NHS is despicable. But par for the course.

    So what controls would you apply?

    Insinuating EU citizens living in the UK do not contribute to the funding of the NHS is not about controls, it is about dog whistling. But if it were down to me I would continue with reciprocity. It serves us very well. Without it, there will be far more elderly people requiring NHS treatment than is currently the case.

    So no controls for some and treating migrants differently depending on which country they come from? Tell, me who is the xenophobe?

    Treating people differently based on reciprocity is not xenophobic, Max.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    rcs1000 said:

    alb1on said:

    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Another classic example of correlation, not causality. On this basis sexual promiscuity causes people to be elected as MPs (and may suggest that Boris will end up as Emperor of the Universe).
    I suspect that sexual promiscuity is a definite advantage in seeking high political office.
    Blair was accused of it with some sort of tarot card lady iirc
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    HYUFD said:

    High Court to rule today on whether Swinson and Corbyn must be included in first TV debate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50450902

    As not a lawyer it seems like if they are required to be given time theres no reason the broadcasters have to make it the same programme.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
    I keep saying that I am not particularly a Boris fan (morals and lack of discipline mainly) but he has always been able to reach parts of the electorate that other Tories couldn't (Ruth apart).
    Boris is the only Tory I think who could win a majority at the moment.

    See too the data below

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1196145937028128769?s=20

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1196147262411431937?s=20
    This isn’t really remarkable at all. Most Conservative voters by definition live in Conservative seats, and there is now no Brexit candidate for them to vote for.
  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    What low level of Labour MP's would force Jezza to resign?
    Any number that means Boris is PM. I think the real question is what level would force the party membership to not pick a corbynite as his replacement.
    Yep, if Jezza doesn't get to be PM on the 13, or very soon after, he's off.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'd like to point out that this is another big lead for the Tories after the idiot Corbynet announcement. And interestingly winning points back from the Lib Dems as well, which makes sense as this is exactly the type of policy which will put the fear of Jez into Tories thinking of voting for them and accidentally letting Jez become PM.

    Labour has lost all credibility and they won't have it back until the current leadership are summarily dumped and replaced with anyone that has more than three brain cells.


    A harsh narrowing of the field, there.

    The reaction of Labour members to the defeat will be to blame everyone but themselves, to double down and either stick with Corbyn or tack further to the left. As we have seen from Nick Palmer and other Corbyn cultists on here for the last few years, the comfort zone is immensely beguiling.

    Then the LDs overtaking Labour in 5 to 10 years is inevitable if Labour are trounced in the election and do not move back to the centre, with ex Labour Chuka Umunna or Luciana Berger perhaps leading the way for the LDs.
    Chuka and Luciana probably won't be MPs.
    Both are now the Tories main challengers based on constituency polls, certainly Luciana
    Yes, but I don't think they will win. We did the Ashcroft constituency polls to death in 2015 and the national swing proved to be a much bigger wave than anything happening locally.
    UNS will almost certainly get seat numbers approximately right. Where the seats fall will be another matter. I would be surprised if either Chuka or Luciana were MPs after the election. (Not staggered, which is a 10% chance or less, but surprised, which is about 25-35% chance.)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cough, cough. :blush:

    May I just mention that I blew the trumpet on here for Buttigieg many months ago following a rave review of his embryonic chances from Axelrod?

    110/1 at the time.

    Ahem ........ Not just you, you know. Cyclefree Junior put me onto him at around the same time. :)
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    High Court to rule today on whether Swinson and Corbyn must be included in first TV debate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50450902

    As not a lawyer it seems like if they are required to be given time theres no reason the broadcasters have to make it the same programme.
    Also as not a lawyer, I'd predict that if they were included, Boris would use it as an excuse to drop out.
  • HYUFD said:

    SunnyJim said:
    So even Gold Standard Survation now has the Tories lead at 1983 landslide levels
    My model using the latest Survation poll gives the Tories a majority of over 60.
  • It’s very sweet that some people are getting excited about the Arcuri affair or Russian funding as possible threats to Johnson’s premiership. What they fail to understand is that such is his privilege he can lie, lie and lie again, and get away with it. Like Prince Andrew and other members of the gilded elite he will never be held to account for his actions.

    You omitted to mention any Labour leaders in your list of dissemblers....

    My assumption is that Johnson will be PM. See the first sentence.

  • It’s very sweet that some people are getting excited about the Arcuri affair or Russian funding as possible threats to Johnson’s premiership. What they fail to understand is that such is his privilege he can lie, lie and lie again, and get away with it. Like Prince Andrew and other members of the gilded elite he will never be held to account for his actions.

    You omitted to mention any Labour leaders in your list of dissemblers....
    A list of one politician and one prince but in the interests of balance, there was Tony Bliar.
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    High Court to rule today on whether Swinson and Corbyn must be included in first TV debate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50450902

    As not a lawyer it seems like if they are required to be given time theres no reason the broadcasters have to make it the same programme.
    The test is balance. Balance is measured on at least two factors - crudely, quantity and quality. The former can be satisfied by exposure on different programmes. The latter is less likely to be met in this way. But before you get to that point there is the issue of who is entitled to balance? It cannot apply to all as that would bring in the fringe parties. So a real question for the courts is where you draw the line.

    Clearly the SNP and LDs can make different cases. The LDs have to show that balance requires their inclusion in the test nationally. The SNP can make a case specific to Scotland and could argue that any 2 man debate must not be shown in Scotland as a solution.
  • Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Jacob Rees-Mogg is parliament's leading chocoholic, reportedly addicted to Creme Eggs, and chocolate soufflés at Claridges.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,814

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    SNP starting to talk up their chances in East Dunbartonshire. Surely that is unwise?

    Or perhaps they have listened to Swinson
    That would be the crowning glory of a wretched campaign......
    Revoke East Dunbartonshire would be hilarious.
    I don't think those posts reflect well on either of you as human beings.

    Equally I would like to see Corbyn and Boris lose their seats, it is a competition after all, but I would have sympathy for either of them if they did. I don't gloat when my side wins in a competition, but rejoice my side won and commiserate with the loser. When Stephen Twigg beat Michael Portillo (neither of whose political views I support) I was really chuffed for Twigg and felt sorry for Portillo.

    It is not a pleasant characteristic to enjoy someone's misfortune.
  • Mr. HYUFD, surely Corbyn *is* in the first debate?

    Also, chocolate is delicious.
  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    What low level of Labour MP's would force Jezza to resign?
    Any number that means Boris is PM. I think the real question is what level would force the party membership to not pick a corbynite as his replacement.
    Yep, if Jezza doesn't get to be PM on the 13, or very soon after, he's off.
    Even if he does, I think. Corbyn has reportedly wanted to step down for some time. He is also getting on a bit. I doubt he'd serve a full term.
  • One thing I've noticed over the last couple of weeks is a huge amount of political advertising on facebook from fake "grassroots" organisations attacking Corbyn/Labour on specific policies - pretty much all of them. A few thoughts about that..

    (1) I've not seen anything from Labour and the modest number of Lib Dem adverts I was seeing in October have evaporated. Is this one reason why the Tories are doing better in the polls than a superficial reading of the media campaign would suggest? If the Tories are out-spending by a large margin on facebook then you would think it would have an effect.

    (2) None of these ads say that they are funded by the Conservative Party, but I assume that they must be in some way. This is really useful for the Tories, particularly on an issue like private schooling where they can have a proxy criticise the policy without having to be seen to be defending privilege directly. It's also useful because a page calling itself "Parents4Education" or "Working4UK" will automatically be trusted more than "politicians". This also seems like a massive hole in electoral law given the requirements there are to declare allegiance on paper leaflets.

    (3) Some of the ads have been targeted at me as a resident of a specific area - not perhaps quite at the constituency level, but close. How should that work in terms of the different spending limits for national/constituency campaigns? The Tories were in trouble for this sort of thing in a different way in 2015, are we seeing a repeat in 2019?

    I really don't think we should be allowing advertising by fake advocacy groups - pages created on October 29th is a dead giveaway. Any political advertising should be clear about who is funding it, and parties should not be allowed to funnel spending through front organisations in a way that misleads the voters.

    I think we have a real problem here.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    edited November 2019
    Whoever is putting them out, my wish in this election is that those using these wilfully distorted bar charts on their election material would receive just one vote.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Pulpstar said:

    I wonder if some Lib Dem voters having mentally ceeded that a Tory majority IS happening are heading to the Tories on the basis that a big majority for Johnson likely leads to a softer Brexit than a small one.

    If Boris gets a big enough majority he will, without pause, betray the ERG the way he did the DUP and do BINO, if that. He was never really that into Brexit anyway beyond using it as a vehicle for his own advancement.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    A very angry ex Labour member (resigned a month ago after being a member for 30 years) asked me what the fuck Len McClusky was doing making Labour policy? I had to admit that I didn't know he was.

    The game is up. For those who want to keep their burgundy passports time to look for pastures new. For those happy to remain in Great Hartlepool good luck.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Roger said:

    A very angry ex Labour member (resigned a month ago after being a member for 30 years) asked me what the fuck Len McClusky was doing making Labour policy? I had to admit that I didn't know he was.

    The game is up. For those who want to keep their burgundy passports time to look for pastures new. For those happy to remain in Great Hartlepool good luck.

    Stop slagging off Hartlepool. It's the Lucerne of the North.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1455635/Two-women-bloodied-fight-Brexit-UKIP-campaign.html
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I wonder if some Lib Dem voters having mentally ceeded that a Tory majority IS happening are heading to the Tories on the basis that a big majority for Johnson likely leads to a softer Brexit than a small one.

    If Boris gets a big enough majority he will, without pause, betray the ERG the way he did the DUP and do BINO, if that. He was never really that into Brexit anyway beyond using it as a vehicle for his own advancement.
    I disagree with this view. If the Tories get a big majority, as seems likely, it will be on the back of Leave voters whose only real allegiance to the Tories is over Brexit. Johnson's electoral coalition will demand a 'proper' Brexit. The big parliamentary majority will be used to push through deregulation, tax cuts and a US trade deal, not to crush the ERG.
  • HYUFD said:

    High Court to rule today on whether Swinson and Corbyn must be included in first TV debate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50450902

    Is Corbyn trying to get out?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,944
    edited November 2019
    Roger said:

    A very angry ex Labour member (resigned a month ago after being a member for 30 years) asked me what the fuck Len McClusky was doing making Labour policy? I had to admit that I didn't know he was.

    The game is up. For those who want to keep their burgundy passports time to look for pastures new. For those happy to remain in Great Hartlepool good luck.

    Some recent Labour announcements seem almost calculated to lose votes. You have to wonder if some of these public school millionaires are secret Tories.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    nunu2 said:

    SunnyJim said:
    Just a hunch but i'm guessing Survation just fell out of favour with the keyboard Corbynistas.
    Wow.

    I was waiting for Survation......


    As I said the leave north is going Tory.
    This website overreacts to any move or trend either way.

    So chill.

    A reasonable Tory majority is currently looking likely. But a lot can change in 3 weeks.
    Labour promising to abolish all student debt might change matters.

    eristdoof said:

    camel said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Like most other pollsters methodology has changed to reading out only candidates standing in the constituency.

    The Tories almost automatically getting a 5% swing from the Brexit Party in this Survation poll due to Farage's party only standing in 274 seats, but interesting that they also seem to have taken some support from the LDs as well.
    The Lib Dems are having a terrible war so far. Seems even worse than 2017. At least then Farron was getting some tv exposure, perhaps not quite for the reason he hoped.
    I think for Jo Swinson to declare homosexuality to be a sin might be best described as 'the nuclear option'.

    She needs something. Being outperformed 2:1 by the tories on the 18-34 vote isn't great. They also are performing abysmally on this poll in the north* (4.7% - eek!)

    *The dangers of drilling down on polls acknowledged.
    Thumbs up to that last comment.
    What the LibDems need is a reason to vote LibDem. They had about a week to get their message across while Labour and Conservatives were saying nothing, and wasted it with incessant whining about the debates being unfair.
    The Lib Dems are campaigning as if this was a Euro election not a GE. Ed Davey would have been a better leader, I am starting to think. All this “Jo Swinson’s liberals” has a touch of May’s hubris. She has not yet earned the right to behave like that.
  • IanB2 said:

    SunnyJim said:

    Andy_JS said:


    The Tories almost automatically getting a 5% swing from BRX in this Survation poll due to Farage's party only standing in 274 seats, but interesting that they also seem to have taken some support from the LDs as well.

    This must be a horrible election for southern remainers.

    Brexit or Corbyn.
    The forthcoming YouGov had questions aimed directly at that.

    Meanwhile the shock when voters discover that far from being sorted, the Tories will start bickering over it again, will be something to behold.
    Unlikely IMO unless there's only a narrow victory.

    A healthy majority would be the Tories first really healthy majority in decades (2015 was an unexpected majority but just a slim one). Combined with the PM having been the face of Brexit and the most irreconcilable bastards of 2019 being out of the party now ... I think Johnson if he has the numbers will have more than enough political capital to get his deal through, negotiate an FTA and get that through.

    I think the FTA if Britain has a stable government will be less complicated than people think. The Europeans are fed up with Brexit too.
    There is no way that a FTA will be negotiated in 12 months. No chance. Not happening.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614

    Roger said:

    A very angry ex Labour member (resigned a month ago after being a member for 30 years) asked me what the fuck Len McClusky was doing making Labour policy? I had to admit that I didn't know he was.

    The game is up. For those who want to keep their burgundy passports time to look for pastures new. For those happy to remain in Great Hartlepool good luck.

    Some recent Labour announcements seem almost calculated to lose votes. You have to wonder if some of these public school millionaires are secret Tories.
    A lifetime of deep cover?

    Slightly more likely is they don't undestand that their retail offer is shite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    High Court to rule today on whether Swinson and Corbyn must be included in first TV debate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50450902

    Is Corbyn trying to get out?
    Sorry whether Swinson and Sturgeon must be included
  • One thing I've noticed over the last couple of weeks is a huge amount of political advertising on facebook from fake "grassroots" organisations attacking Corbyn/Labour on specific policies - pretty much all of them. A few thoughts about that..

    (1) I've not seen anything from Labour and the modest number of Lib Dem adverts I was seeing in October have evaporated. Is this one reason why the Tories are doing better in the polls than a superficial reading of the media campaign would suggest? If the Tories are out-spending by a large margin on facebook then you would think it would have an effect.

    (2) None of these ads say that they are funded by the Conservative Party, but I assume that they must be in some way. This is really useful for the Tories, particularly on an issue like private schooling where they can have a proxy criticise the policy without having to be seen to be defending privilege directly. It's also useful because a page calling itself "Parents4Education" or "Working4UK" will automatically be trusted more than "politicians". This also seems like a massive hole in electoral law given the requirements there are to declare allegiance on paper leaflets.

    (3) Some of the ads have been targeted at me as a resident of a specific area - not perhaps quite at the constituency level, but close. How should that work in terms of the different spending limits for national/constituency campaigns? The Tories were in trouble for this sort of thing in a different way in 2015, are we seeing a repeat in 2019?

    I really don't think we should be allowing advertising by fake advocacy groups - pages created on October 29th is a dead giveaway. Any political advertising should be clear about who is funding it, and parties should not be allowed to funnel spending through front organisations in a way that misleads the voters.

    I think we have a real problem here.

    Yes, it probably should be a scandal, and the Conservatives do have form. Already they have been caught not declaring Facebook adverts. Given CCHQ hired NZ consultants specifically for the social media campaign, an upsurge in activity is not surprising. Using fake advocacy groups does seem a step too far; is it CCHQ or the Russians?

    Though last time, iirc, Labour was more Twitter than Facebook.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    A very angry ex Labour member (resigned a month ago after being a member for 30 years) asked me what the fuck Len McClusky was doing making Labour policy? I had to admit that I didn't know he was.

    The game is up. For those who want to keep their burgundy passports time to look for pastures new. For those happy to remain in Great Hartlepool good luck.

    Stop slagging off Hartlepool. It's the Lucerne of the North.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1455635/Two-women-bloodied-fight-Brexit-UKIP-campaign.html
    The Daily Mail has caught up with the Independent and now won't show me things unless I disengage my ad blocker.

    Well sod that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    As for my nowcast:
    CON 364
    LAB 196 (inc speaker)
    SNP 43
    LD 25
    GRN 1
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Con majority 78

    I think even that has built into it an assumption that Labour will be able to repeat their 2017 trick of getting many young traditional non voters to the polls on the day. For all its bizarre irrationality and fantasy elements there was an undoubted buzz about Corbyn in 2017 that I am just not seeing this time. He looks older and tired. Without the unexpected turnout trick I think the Tory majority heads nearer 100.

    Corbyn really needs to smash it out the park tomorrow night and get his campaign rolling again. There will be a temptation on the part of the media to talk up his performance and the horse race aspect but it is energy on the ground that he needs.
    Alternatively, if Corbyn is below par, then Boris is going to, er, romp home and - the only story will be piling on to Crap Corbyn.

    If the story of 2017 was the apathetic young getting enthused by Corbyn, I wonder if the story of 2019 will be the never-before-Tories getting enthused by Boris?
    I keep saying that I am not particularly a Boris fan (morals and lack of discipline mainly) but he has always been able to reach parts of the electorate that other Tories couldn't (Ruth apart).
    Boris is the only Tory I think who could win a majority at the moment.

    See too the data below

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1196145937028128769?s=20

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1196147262411431937?s=20
    This isn’t really remarkable at all. Most Conservative voters by definition live in Conservative seats, and there is now no Brexit candidate for them to vote for.
    The Tories were polling in 3rd after May extended, even before Farage pulled out in Tory seats the Tories were polling a clear first
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited November 2019

    HYUFD said:

    SunnyJim said:
    So even Gold Standard Survation now has the Tories lead at 1983 landslide levels
    My model using the latest Survation poll gives the Tories a majority of over 60.
    Swing of 6% from Labour to the Tories with Survation today, swing of 3% from the Tories to the LDs.

    On UNS that would see the Tories gain 58 Labour seats and the LDs gain just 3 Tory seats

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/conservative

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    edited November 2019
    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Yes - chocolate. Proper chocolate, that is. Dark - in bars, which you break off into pieces and eat slowly alongside an espresso coffee at the end of a good meal.

    Not some disgusting sugary brown powder, laughably called “chocolate” and poured into a milky coffee. Not Cadbury’s crime (I meant to say “Creme” but “crime” is a wonderfully appropriate typo) eggs - which is just glutinous muck fit only for very young children and, apparently, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    The “Foresta” chocolate from this shop in Naples (https://gay-odin.it/categorie-html.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAn8nuBRCzARIsAJcdIfNd3v08qWfNUuYUOxPAYTGfIgEZj4erySemzk9KH3brwtZxq0N5sV0aAmwXEALw_wcB) is food fit for the Gods.

    As are these - https://www.neuhauschocolates.com/en/assortment/orangette/. One way to my heart. Just saying..... :wink:
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,838

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I wonder if some Lib Dem voters having mentally ceeded that a Tory majority IS happening are heading to the Tories on the basis that a big majority for Johnson likely leads to a softer Brexit than a small one.

    If Boris gets a big enough majority he will, without pause, betray the ERG the way he did the DUP and do BINO, if that. He was never really that into Brexit anyway beyond using it as a vehicle for his own advancement.
    I disagree with this view. If the Tories get a big majority, as seems likely, it will be on the back of Leave voters whose only real allegiance to the Tories is over Brexit. Johnson's electoral coalition will demand a 'proper' Brexit. The big parliamentary majority will be used to push through deregulation, tax cuts and a US trade deal, not to crush the ERG.
    I disagree with that. I don't think the majority of Brexiteers are too bothered about the details, with the exception of FOM.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    News for @Cyclefree ...

    “Countries that consume the most chocolate per head have the highest numbers of Nobel laureates per capita, according to a study by medical researchers at Columbia University....”
    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201911180023.html

    Yes - chocolate. Proper chocolate, that is. Dark - in bars, which you break off into pieces and eat slowly alongside an espresso coffee at the end of a good meal.

    Not some disgusting sugary brown powder, laughably called “chocolate” and poured into a milky coffee. Not Cadbury’s crime eggs - which is just glutinous muck fit only for very young children and, apparently, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    The “Foresta” chocolate from this shop in Naples (https://gay-odin.it/categorie-html.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAn8nuBRCzARIsAJcdIfNd3v08qWfNUuYUOxPAYTGfIgEZj4erySemzk9KH3brwtZxq0N5sV0aAmwXEALw_wcB) is food fit for the Gods.

    As are these - https://www.neuhauschocolates.com/en/assortment/orangette/. One way to my heart. Just saying..... :wink:
    Charbonnel and Walker no longer sells chocolate orange peel by the box, just loose, so I've been forced to use Godiva.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,814
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    SNP starting to talk up their chances in East Dunbartonshire. Surely that is unwise?

    Or perhaps they have listened to Swinson
    That would be the crowning glory of a wretched campaign......
    Revoke East Dunbartonshire would be hilarious.
    I don't think those posts reflect well on either of you as human beings.

    Equally I would like to see Corbyn and Boris lose their seats, it is a competition after all, but I would have sympathy for either of them if they did. I don't gloat when my side wins in a competition, but rejoice my side won and commiserate with the loser. When Stephen Twigg beat Michael Portillo (neither of whose political views I support) I was really chuffed for Twigg and felt sorry for Portillo.

    It is not a pleasant characteristic to enjoy someone's misfortune.
    I guess I am not being completely honest there in that I wouldn't criticise a similar comment about Trump, but I do think of him as a very unpleasant person and much as I might disagree with Corbyn and Boris I don't have that view about either of them as individuals.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I wonder if some Lib Dem voters having mentally ceeded that a Tory majority IS happening are heading to the Tories on the basis that a big majority for Johnson likely leads to a softer Brexit than a small one.

    If Boris gets a big enough majority he will, without pause, betray the ERG the way he did the DUP and do BINO, if that. He was never really that into Brexit anyway beyond using it as a vehicle for his own advancement.
    I disagree with this view. If the Tories get a big majority, as seems likely, it will be on the back of Leave voters whose only real allegiance to the Tories is over Brexit. Johnson's electoral coalition will demand a 'proper' Brexit. The big parliamentary majority will be used to push through deregulation, tax cuts and a US trade deal, not to crush the ERG.
    I think you are both wrong. He is a showman. He will want big picture government. This will mean passing his withdrawal agreement as is, holding no deal over the EU during FTA discussions (as before - it worked, or at least he can say it did) and getting on with domestic announcements.

    His critics said he'd be a bumbling disaster. Not so much yet. His critics say he wants to deliver right-wing deregulation. Looking forward to the manifesto - bet it doesn't offer that. Weaknesses - absolutely - but his record on issues is pretty progressive. I think people will stick with him.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    One thing I've noticed over the last couple of weeks is a huge amount of political advertising on facebook from fake "grassroots" organisations attacking Corbyn/Labour on specific policies - pretty much all of them. A few thoughts about that..

    (1) I've not seen anything from Labour and the modest number of Lib Dem adverts I was seeing in October have evaporated. Is this one reason why the Tories are doing better in the polls than a superficial reading of the media campaign would suggest? If the Tories are out-spending by a large margin on facebook then you would think it would have an effect.

    (2) None of these ads say that they are funded by the Conservative Party, but I assume that they must be in some way. This is really useful for the Tories, particularly on an issue like private schooling where they can have a proxy criticise the policy without having to be seen to be defending privilege directly. It's also useful because a page calling itself "Parents4Education" or "Working4UK" will automatically be trusted more than "politicians". This also seems like a massive hole in electoral law given the requirements there are to declare allegiance on paper leaflets.

    (3) Some of the ads have been targeted at me as a resident of a specific area
    [Snip]

    I really don't think we should be allowing advertising by fake advocacy groups - pages created on October 29th is a dead giveaway. Any political advertising should be clear about who is funding it, and parties should not be allowed to funnel spending through front organisations in a way that misleads the voters.

    I think we have a real problem here.

    On the technical side this is definitely possible. On the political side it would be naive to think that this is not going on; the major political parties will take advantage of this provided that it is legal or they are sure the money trail won't lead back to them. Also they need the money to buy this targeted advertising.

    That is where the problem starts. There is a general principle in the UK that election spending is controlled or capped, but this type of advertising is flying under the radar, and if a clear breach of the rules is found, nabbing the correct culprit has been lets say "complicated".

    Over the last 5 years we have seen that this is a growing problem, but defining acceptable practice and overseeing that the law is not broken is going to be a massive headache. There is a real danger that the election regulators will remain 5 years behind the Cambridge Analyticas.

    I suspect that it will take over 10 years of trying to address this before we get a reasonable solution. WH2020 will be such a huge event that I forsee this issue will become the focus of either the election itself or for the winner of that election.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Cyclefree said:

    nunu2 said:

    SunnyJim said:
    Just a hunch but i'm guessing Survation just fell out of favour with the keyboard Corbynistas.
    Wow.

    I was waiting for Survation......


    As I said the leave north is going Tory.
    This website overreacts to any move or trend either way.

    So chill.

    A reasonable Tory majority is currently looking likely. But a lot can change in 3 weeks.
    Labour promising to abolish all student debt might change matters.

    eristdoof said:

    camel said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Like most other pollsters methodology has changed to reading out only candidates standing in the constituency.

    The Tories almost automatically getting a 5% swing from the Brexit Party in this Survation poll due to Farage's party only standing in 274 seats, but interesting that they also seem to have taken some support from the LDs as well.
    The Lib Dems are having a terrible war so far. Seems even worse than 2017. At least then Farron was getting some tv exposure, perhaps not quite for the reason he hoped.
    I think for Jo Swinson to declare homosexuality to be a sin might be best described as 'the nuclear option'.

    She needs something. Being outperformed 2:1 by the tories on the 18-34 vote isn't great. They also are performing abysmally on this poll in the north* (4.7% - eek!)

    *The dangers of drilling down on polls acknowledged.
    Thumbs up to that last comment.
    What the LibDems need is a reason to vote LibDem. They had about a week to get their message across while Labour and Conservatives were saying nothing, and wasted it with incessant whining about the debates being unfair.
    The Lib Dems are campaigning as if this was a Euro election not a GE. Ed Davey would have been a better leader, I am starting to think. All this “Jo Swinson’s liberals” has a touch of May’s hubris. She has not yet earned the right to behave like that.
    Tbh, the Tory party should wipe the slate clean and recalculate all £9k fees back down to £3k and take the debt write-off. It's good politics and good economics.
  • malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    SNP starting to talk up their chances in East Dunbartonshire. Surely that is unwise?

    Or perhaps they have listened to Swinson
    Winninghere-itis is horribly infectious.
This discussion has been closed.