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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    Gov't should go for it in a 1 line bill if the FTPA route is ruled out.

    One has to wonder if Bercow might rule it out of order though :O :O !?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    SunnyJim said:


    I can’t imagine he will go any later than Dec 5th. I’m certainly not in festive relaxing mode at that stage and if it is that date we have a work conference that day and I would need to request a postal vote.

    A 'Peoples Parliament' that would finally honour the referendum result.

    A fantastic Christmas present for the 17m+ who voted to leave.
    “I don't know what to do!" cried Scrooge, laughing and crying in the same breath; and making a perfect Laocoön of himself with his stockings. "I am as light as a feather, I am as happy as an angel, I am as merry as a school-boy. I am as giddy as a drunken man. A merry Christmas to every-body! A happy New Year to all the world! Hallo here! Whoop! Hallo!”
    Scrooge voted Brexit, until “die hard Remainer” Jacob Marley scared the shit out of him.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929
    More importantly, it appears that next President Buttigieg was the 287th person to join Facebook.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929
    148grss said:

    crandles said:

    28th October EU grant extension to 31 Jan (shortenable).
    Gov introduces bill saying: 'Notwithstanding FTPA the next election shall be on Nov 28 with parliament rising on October 31.'

    Can't see why this can't happen. Easier than getting 2/3 majority. Would labour risk voting against and look afraid of election?
    Leaves Dec and Jan to scrutinise WAB. But perhaps Boris would prefer only Jan to be available to pass WAB in case only a small majority so Dec 5 or 12 more likely?

    Agreeing new program motion and then shortening extension seems more logical but if Boris is confident of getting a majority then above route seems plausibly available? Or am I misunderstanding/missing something?

    Can things be voted on that just basically say "ignoring law x"? That sounds hilarious. "Notwithstanding the [whatever act that makes it illegal to murder people] we say we can kill Bob because he is funny looking". Fun times
    Yes
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    For what it's worth this is my prediction:

    1. Extension to 31/01
    2. Guarantees to satisfy election date concerns
    3. GE

    It seems to me to be the simplest route through because the deal will never get through parliament without wrecking amendments being attached.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    RobD said:

    SunnyJim said:


    I can’t imagine he will go any later than Dec 5th. I’m certainly not in festive relaxing mode at that stage and if it is that date we have a work conference that day and I would need to request a postal vote.

    A 'Peoples Parliament' that would finally honour the referendum result.

    A fantastic Christmas present for the 17m+ who voted to leave.

    If the Brexit party aren’t silly buggers, yes.
    I guess Farage will want to put up candidates against any Tory saying they will back Boris's Deal.

    Silly buggery is in BXP DNA.

    Whether 2017 Tory voters will fall for it? Not many, is my aseesment, based on talking to some of them.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Pulpstar said:

    Gov't should go for it in a 1 line bill if the FTPA route is ruled out.

    One has to wonder if Bercow might rule it out of order though :O :O !?

    Bercow could allow it alongside every possible amendment suggested for the bill.
  • Pulpstar said:

    crandles said:

    28th October EU grant extension to 31 Jan (shortenable).
    Gov introduces bill saying: 'Notwithstanding FTPA the next election shall be on Nov 28 with parliament rising on October 31.'

    Can't see why this can't happen. Easier than getting 2/3 majority. Would labour risk voting against and look afraid of election?
    Leaves Dec and Jan to scrutinise WAB. But perhaps Boris would prefer only Jan to be available to pass WAB in case only a small majority so Dec 5 or 12 more likely?

    Agreeing new program motion and then shortening extension seems more logical but if Boris is confident of getting a majority then above route seems plausibly available? Or am I misunderstanding/missing something?

    How could the opposition amend it would be the question.

    They could change the date (Wouldn't worry the Gov't I expect)

    I don't think they can change the system to some form of PR - Labour wouldn't want to anyway given its appalling polling.

    Try and change franchise to 16/17 - would that get the votes ? Not sure

    EU Citizens looks to be the one but I'm not sure it has the votes.
    If it were amended to give the vote to 16 & 17 year olds, how many of them would be registered to vote within a month?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This is what happened in 2017

    "On 18 April 2017, the Prime Minister Theresa May announced she would seek an election on 8 June,[21] despite previously ruling out an early election.[22][23] A House of Commons motion to allow this was passed on 19 April, with 522 votes for and 13 against, a majority of 509.[24] The motion was supported by the Conservatives, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens, while the SNP abstained.[21] Nine Labour MPs, one SDLP MP and three independents (Sylvia Hermon and two former SNP MPs, Natalie McGarry and Michelle Thomson) voted against the motion.

    Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn supported the early election,[26] as did Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron and the Green Party.[27][28] The SNP stated that it was in favour of fixed-term parliaments, and would abstain in the House of Commons vote.[29] UKIP leader Paul Nuttall and First Minister of Wales Carwyn Jones criticised May for being opportunistic in the timing of the election, motivated by the then strong position of the Conservative Party in the opinion polls.

    On 25 April, the election date was confirmed as 8 June,[32] with dissolution on 3 May. The government announced that it intended for the next parliament to assemble on 13 June, with the state opening on 19 June.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election

    If the election date is set for 5th December it's set for 5th December and the PM wouldn't be able to change it without a recall of Parliament and Parliaments agreement.

    That was the same with a 14th or 15th October election of well of course.

    Of course things would get messy if something happened mid-campaign that meant the election had to be postponed but again it couldn't happen without a recall of Parliament and Parliaments agreement.

    The date of the election is set by proclamation, and it was set a week after parliament had voted for it. I think that’s their worry.
    The date is set by the PM so the only way to ensure you get the date you want is to kick the PM out and take his place.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    Pulpstar said:

    crandles said:

    28th October EU grant extension to 31 Jan (shortenable).
    Gov introduces bill saying: 'Notwithstanding FTPA the next election shall be on Nov 28 with parliament rising on October 31.'

    Can't see why this can't happen. Easier than getting 2/3 majority. Would labour risk voting against and look afraid of election?
    Leaves Dec and Jan to scrutinise WAB. But perhaps Boris would prefer only Jan to be available to pass WAB in case only a small majority so Dec 5 or 12 more likely?

    Agreeing new program motion and then shortening extension seems more logical but if Boris is confident of getting a majority then above route seems plausibly available? Or am I misunderstanding/missing something?

    How could the opposition amend it would be the question.

    They could change the date (Wouldn't worry the Gov't I expect)

    I don't think they can change the system to some form of PR - Labour wouldn't want to anyway given its appalling polling.

    Try and change franchise to 16/17 - would that get the votes ? Not sure

    EU Citizens looks to be the one but I'm not sure it has the votes.
    Anything that changes the franchise would have to extend the date of the election to allow people to register. I suspect that the EC would be expected to give guidance on how long might be appropriate to ensure this would happen.

    Of course this will mean more delay, so don't rule it out!
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    SunnyJim said:


    I can’t imagine he will go any later than Dec 5th. I’m certainly not in festive relaxing mode at that stage and if it is that date we have a work conference that day and I would need to request a postal vote.

    A 'Peoples Parliament' that would finally honour the referendum result.

    A fantastic Christmas present for the 17m+ who voted to leave.
    “I don't know what to do!" cried Scrooge, laughing and crying in the same breath; and making a perfect Laocoön of himself with his stockings. "I am as light as a feather, I am as happy as an angel, I am as merry as a school-boy. I am as giddy as a drunken man. A merry Christmas to every-body! A happy New Year to all the world! Hallo here! Whoop! Hallo!”
    Scrooge voted Brexit, until “die hard Remainer” Jacob Marley scared the shit out of him.
    Humbug. To coin a phrase.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    148grss said:


    Can things be voted on that just basically say "ignoring law x"? That sounds hilarious. "Notwithstanding the [whatever act that makes it illegal to murder people] we say we can kill Bob because he is funny looking". Fun times

    Sounds like Bob was asking for it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    17.4 million voted for Brexit not a Clean-Break Brexit.

    I did not vote for a Clean-Break Brexit. I voted hoping for the deal the Vote Leave team said they should get and now have got.

    This is not the 'deal' in that sense. It is the exit treaty. Whether we end up with 'clean' or 'filthy' or (insert adjective of choice) Brexit is undecided. It will depend on who is negotiating the Future Relationship on our behalf and on the composition of parliament at that time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,829
    kinabalu said:

    17.4 million voted for Brexit not a Clean-Break Brexit.

    I did not vote for a Clean-Break Brexit. I voted hoping for the deal the Vote Leave team said they should get and now have got.

    This is not the 'deal' in that sense. It is the exit treaty. Whether we end up with 'clean' or 'filthy' or (insert adjective of choice) Brexit is undecided. It will depend on who is negotiating the Future Relationship on our behalf and on the composition of parliament at that time.
    See just how maddening the EU's sequencing is? :D
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    eek said:


    The date is set by the PM so the only way to ensure you get the date you want is to kick the PM out and take his place.

    Ordinarily you would be right of course but in present circumstances it would be a cross-party agreement on a date.

    In effect, Corbyn would have it written in stone which is fair enough.
  • Nicky Butt: Ex-Manchester United player denies wife attack
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50152306
    "As well as pleading not guilty to assault by beating, he further denies causing £800 of damage to an iPhone 7, Manchester Magistrates' Court heard."

    How do you do £800 of damage to an iPhone 7?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    With zero G forces and no mechanical issues on the virtual drivers I expect the gamers to lead.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited October 2019
    148grss said:

    crandles said:

    28th October EU grant extension to 31 Jan (shortenable).
    Gov introduces bill saying: 'Notwithstanding FTPA the next election shall be on Nov 28 with parliament rising on October 31.'

    Can't see why this can't happen. Easier than getting 2/3 majority. Would labour risk voting against and look afraid of election?
    Leaves Dec and Jan to scrutinise WAB. But perhaps Boris would prefer only Jan to be available to pass WAB in case only a small majority so Dec 5 or 12 more likely?

    Agreeing new program motion and then shortening extension seems more logical but if Boris is confident of getting a majority then above route seems plausibly available? Or am I misunderstanding/missing something?

    Can things be voted on that just basically say "ignoring law x"? That sounds hilarious. "Notwithstanding the [whatever act that makes it illegal to murder people] we say we can kill Bob because he is funny looking". Fun times
    Yes, that would be a Bill of Attainder. It's never been removed as a power of Parliament, because Parliament's power to legislate as it sees fit cannot be limited. However, it would put us in violation of many international agreements, not limited to the ECHR and the UDHR.

    The last one proposed was in 1820, although technically it was a Bill of Pains and Penalties (against Queen Caroline), which is not quite the same thing. That passed the Lords but was not debated by the Commons. Churchill advocated using Bills of Attainder to summary execute the captured Nazi leaders after WW2, but was vetoed by the US and USSR who wanted a formal trial process.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    rcs1000 said:

    148grss said:

    crandles said:

    28th October EU grant extension to 31 Jan (shortenable).
    Gov introduces bill saying: 'Notwithstanding FTPA the next election shall be on Nov 28 with parliament rising on October 31.'

    Can't see why this can't happen. Easier than getting 2/3 majority. Would labour risk voting against and look afraid of election?
    Leaves Dec and Jan to scrutinise WAB. But perhaps Boris would prefer only Jan to be available to pass WAB in case only a small majority so Dec 5 or 12 more likely?

    Agreeing new program motion and then shortening extension seems more logical but if Boris is confident of getting a majority then above route seems plausibly available? Or am I misunderstanding/missing something?

    Can things be voted on that just basically say "ignoring law x"? That sounds hilarious. "Notwithstanding the [whatever act that makes it illegal to murder people] we say we can kill Bob because he is funny looking". Fun times
    Yes
    "Notwithstanding the [whatever act makes it illegal] we say we can throw Jeremy Corbyn out as an MP because he is a useless anti-semitic arse."

    Nailed on majority in the House. Makes you wonder why nobody has tabled it?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    Dunno. Interesting though.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This is what happened in 2017

    "On 18 April 2017, the Prime Minister Theresa May announced she would seek an election on 8 June,[21] despite previously ruling out an early election.[22][23] A House of Commons motion to allow this was passed on 19 April, with 522 votes for and 13 against, a majority of 509.[24] The motion was supported by the Conservatives, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens, while the SNP abstained.[21] Nine Labour MPs, one SDLP MP and three independents (Sylvia Hermon and two former SNP MPs, Natalie McGarry and Michelle Thomson) voted against the motion.

    Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn supported the early election,[26] as did Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron and the Green Party.[27][28] The SNP stated that it was in favour of fixed-term parliaments, and would abstain in the House of Commons vote.[29] UKIP leader Paul Nuttall and First Minister of Wales Carwyn Jones criticised May for being opportunistic in the timing of the election, motivated by the then strong position of the Conservative Party in the opinion polls.

    On 25 April, the election date was confirmed as 8 June,[32] with dissolution on 3 May. The government announced that it intended for the next parliament to assemble on 13 June, with the state opening on 19 June.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election

    If the election date is set for 5th December it's set for 5th December and the PM wouldn't be able to change it without a recall of Parliament and Parliaments agreement.

    That was the same with a 14th or 15th October election of well of course.

    Of course things would get messy if something happened mid-campaign that meant the election had to be postponed but again it couldn't happen without a recall of Parliament and Parliaments agreement.

    The date of the election is set by proclamation, and it was set a week after parliament had voted for it. I think that’s their worry.
    The date is set by the PM so the only way to ensure you get the date you want is to kick the PM out and take his place.
    Is there a limit to how far in the future the PM can set the election date? I sense another Supreme Court hearing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Is there a book on what day Cummings is sacked?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362

    Nicky Butt: Ex-Manchester United player denies wife attack
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50152306
    "As well as pleading not guilty to assault by beating, he further denies causing £800 of damage to an iPhone 7, Manchester Magistrates' Court heard."

    How do you do £800 of damage to an iPhone 7?

    It's a footballer's wife. It's going to be a gold case with some diamonds set into it. Dur!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Nicky Butt: Ex-Manchester United player denies wife attack
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50152306
    "As well as pleading not guilty to assault by beating, he further denies causing £800 of damage to an iPhone 7, Manchester Magistrates' Court heard."

    How do you do £800 of damage to an iPhone 7?

    Footballer's wife. Probably coated her phone in Swarovski crystals.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Guardian:

    Biden gains widest lead in 2020 race in months amid Trump's smears – live
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    It may be as simple as the fact that Biden seems to have been doing a bit better than previously in the polls in the last few days.

    In other US news, disapproval of Trump appears to be ticking up slowly but surely. Now at 54.6 according to the 538 rolling average, compared to lows of 51.3 in 2018 and 52.3 in 2019.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Biden is back. Will Iowa surprise?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    crandles said:

    28th October EU grant extension to 31 Jan (shortenable).
    Gov introduces bill saying: 'Notwithstanding FTPA the next election shall be on Nov 28 with parliament rising on October 31.'

    Can't see why this can't happen. Easier than getting 2/3 majority. Would labour risk voting against and look afraid of election?
    Leaves Dec and Jan to scrutinise WAB. But perhaps Boris would prefer only Jan to be available to pass WAB in case only a small majority so Dec 5 or 12 more likely?

    Agreeing new program motion and then shortening extension seems more logical but if Boris is confident of getting a majority then above route seems plausibly available? Or am I misunderstanding/missing something?

    A majority of 30 in favour of the deal seems as though it should be enough to get it through.

    But if the deal goes through, that leaves the government without a majority, perhaps until the Spring, and perhaps they think their prospects would be better in an early Brexit election.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    Has Clinton gone even money yet though ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Nakht (sorry for the slow reply), it's a very cool idea, though.

    F1 should absolutely copy it pronto.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    DanSmith said:


    Is there a limit to how far in the future the PM can set the election date? I sense another Supreme Court hearing.

    The date will be set with Corbyn.

    Labour may find other ways to avoid the election but it won't be because of date concerns.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    It seemed pretty crazy of them to agree to one in April 2017. But at 10pm on polling day it seemed rather less crazy.

    True enough. But I hate this climate and these circumstances for Labour. I think it is better to take it into next year, block the Deal, block a GE, force Johnson to either No Deal on 31 Jan or (which I think more likely) bottle it and seek his own 'surrender' further extension. That could be transformational as regards election prospects.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    What ever it is it is terrible and should be opposed by all right thinking people
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    DanSmith said:

    eek said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This is what happened in 2017

    "On 18 April 2017, the Prime Minister Theresa May announced she would seek an election on 8 June,[21] despite previously ruling out an early election.[22][23] A House of Commons motion to allow this was passed on 19 April, with 522 votes for and 13 against, a majority of 509.[24] The motion was supported by the Conservatives, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens, while the SNP abstained.[21] Nine Labour MPs, one SDLP MP and three independents (Sylvia Hermon and two former SNP MPs, Natalie McGarry and Michelle Thomson) voted against the motion.

    Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn supported the early election,[26] as did Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron and the Green Party.[27][28] The SNP stated that it was in favour of fixed-term parliaments, and would abstain in the House of Commons vote.[29] UKIP leader Paul Nuttall and First Minister of Wales Carwyn Jones criticised May for being opportunistic in the timing of the election, motivated by the then strong position of the Conservative Party in the opinion polls.

    On 25 April, the election date was confirmed as 8 June,[32] with dissolution on 3 May. The government announced that it intended for the next parliament to assemble on 13 June, with the state opening on 19 June.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election

    If the election date is set for 5th December it's set for 5th December and the PM wouldn't be able to change it without a recall of Parliament and Parliaments agreement.

    That was the same with a 14th or 15th October election of well of course.

    Of course things would get messy if something happened mid-campaign that meant the election had to be postponed but again it couldn't happen without a recall of Parliament and Parliaments agreement.

    The date of the election is set by proclamation, and it was set a week after parliament had voted for it. I think that’s their worry.
    The date is set by the PM so the only way to ensure you get the date you want is to kick the PM out and take his place.
    Is there a limit to how far in the future the PM can set the election date? I sense another Supreme Court hearing.
    Does anyone still think Johnson would actually prefer a No Deal Brexit to getting his deal through?

    If anyone does think that, do they think he'd prefer a No Deal at the end of January 2020 to leaving perhaps this year with a deal?
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    kinabalu said:


    True enough. But I hate this climate and these circumstances for Labour. I think it is better to take it into next year, block the Deal, block a GE, force Johnson to either No Deal on 31 Jan or (which I think more likely) bottle it and seek his own 'surrender' further extension. That could be transformational as regards election prospects.

    I really don't believe that would be in Labour's long-term interests.

    At the very least Labour need to stay competitive for the GE after this one and if they try and play silly games through until next year then I can see them getting such a beating they won't be back in contention for a long time.

    They should grab the chance of making it look like they are forcing the Tories in to an election and then make the best of the Brexit message they can.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alistair said:

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    What ever it is it is terrible and should be opposed by all right thinking people
    Not at all. Opportunities to lay Joe Biden at favourable prices are always to be welcomed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    rcs1000 said:

    More importantly, it appears that next President Buttigieg was the 287th person to join Facebook.

    Thanks for that betting steer btw. I did him as a consequence and he is much shorter now.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Scott_P said:
    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    kinabalu said:

    It seemed pretty crazy of them to agree to one in April 2017. But at 10pm on polling day it seemed rather less crazy.

    True enough. But I hate this climate and these circumstances for Labour. I think it is better to take it into next year, block the Deal, block a GE, force Johnson to either No Deal on 31 Jan or (which I think more likely) bottle it and seek his own 'surrender' further extension. That could be transformational as regards election prospects.
    Good to see the importance of the country party over party country.

    I think Labour would fall to derisory levels of vote, sub 20% if this is the strategy they use.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    rpjs said:


    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?

    I wondered this earlier and was told parliament has primacy.

    So in a procedural sense Boris was right.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Scott_P said:
    Don't think it matters anymore does it?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    In other US news, disapproval of Trump appears to be ticking up slowly but surely. Now at 54.6 according to the 538 rolling average, compared to lows of 51.3 in 2018 and 52.3 in 2019.

    Great news. But 40.9% are still saying that they APPROVE of him!

    Dread to think what else these people approve of.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    kinabalu said:

    In other US news, disapproval of Trump appears to be ticking up slowly but surely. Now at 54.6 according to the 538 rolling average, compared to lows of 51.3 in 2018 and 52.3 in 2019.

    Great news. But 40.9% are still saying that they APPROVE of him!

    Dread to think what else these people approve of.
    They are all brickies, waiting for lucrative contracts on the border.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Scott_P said:
    Don't think it matters anymore does it?
    That agreement was agreed between May and the DUP. Why would it still be valid even without the fact Boris throw the DUP under a bus.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    kinabalu said:

    In other US news, disapproval of Trump appears to be ticking up slowly but surely. Now at 54.6 according to the 538 rolling average, compared to lows of 51.3 in 2018 and 52.3 in 2019.

    Great news. But 40.9% are still saying that they APPROVE of him!

    Dread to think what else these people approve of.
    People are funny like that though. I mean, you vote Leave, discover the promised land is in fact desolate wasteland, and the only food in the supermarket is drenched in chlorine, but you still can't quite admit that maybe it wasn't such a whizzo idea after all.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rpjs said:

    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?

    Another log on the constitutional bonfire of Brexit by the Clown Circus in No10
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    rpjs said:

    Scott_P said:
    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?
    I guess Holyrood is hoping for immediate independence.
  • x
    Scott_P said:
    Don't they debate the QS for about 5 days before a vote?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    Well, as the e-sports drivers won't be dealing with the physical effects of racing, in terms of g-forces on the body, I'd expect them to be faster.

    But

    Don't forget that the real drivers will be able to crash into the virtual ones without consequence, while the virtual ones will have to avoid drivers who cannot see them, and other virtual drivers. They'll effectively have a much more crowded race track, and that will slow them down a lot.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    Well, as the e-sports drivers won't be dealing with the physical effects of racing, in terms of g-forces on the body, I'd expect them to be faster.

    But

    Don't forget that the real drivers will be able to crash into the virtual ones without consequence, while the virtual ones will have to avoid drivers who cannot see them, and other virtual drivers. They'll effectively have a much more crowded race track, and that will slow them down a lot.
    And it would be a piece of cake to 'tune' the virtual car to make sure it couldn't quite win.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    rcs1000 said:

    More importantly, it appears that next President Buttigieg was the 287th person to join Facebook.

    He was a contemporary of the Zuck at Harvard. Anyone with a 4-digit or less Facebook userID number is almost certainly one as well.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    SunnyJim said:

    rpjs said:


    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?

    I wondered this earlier and was told parliament has primacy.

    So in a procedural sense Boris was right.
    Not quite. The Sewell convention is basically that Westminster can't pass laws in the areas of competence of the Holyrood and the other devolved parliaments. However a recent UKSC (I think) judgement claimed that this was only a 'political' decision. So Mr Johnson would be breaking an established procedure, if not quite illegally, then certainly at some political cost.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    x

    Scott_P said:
    Don't they debate the QS for about 5 days before a vote?
    Yes - all last week, today and tomorrow.

    The vote would have been on Tuesday were it not for other issues taking over.
  • Nicky Butt: Ex-Manchester United player denies wife attack
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50152306
    "As well as pleading not guilty to assault by beating, he further denies causing £800 of damage to an iPhone 7, Manchester Magistrates' Court heard."

    How do you do £800 of damage to an iPhone 7?

    More to the point...only an iphone 7...dont most 10 years old have more recent phone than that.
  • rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    More importantly, it appears that next President Buttigieg was the 287th person to join Facebook.

    He was a contemporary of the Zuck at Harvard. Anyone with a 4-digit or less Facebook userID number is almost certainly one as well.
    Does that mean they were also probably members of the dodgy forerunner to facebook where you got to rate hot or not on fellow class mates?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Carnyx said:

    SunnyJim said:

    rpjs said:


    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?

    I wondered this earlier and was told parliament has primacy.

    So in a procedural sense Boris was right.
    Not quite. The Sewell convention is basically that Westminster can't pass laws in the areas of competence of the Holyrood and the other devolved parliaments. However a recent UKSC (I think) judgement claimed that this was only a 'political' decision. So Mr Johnson would be breaking an established procedure, if not quite illegally, then certainly at some political cost.
    It was Miller (No. 1) that decided that the Sewel convention, while recognised by statute as a political convention, did not have legal consequences.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Alistair said:

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    What ever it is it is terrible and should be opposed by all right thinking people
    Not at all. Opportunities to lay Joe Biden at favourable prices are always to be welcomed.
    Probably just the latest poll, which shows Biden with a 15% lead nationally.

    Meanwhile, a plausible explanation for the Hillary odds:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/467021-clinton-2020-whisper-campaign-hits-new-heights
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    RobD said:

    See just how maddening the EU's sequencing is? :D

    I know. And it was not factored into the rhetoric of either side during the referendum. It renders much of the debate unfit for purpose, looking back. Perhaps the referendum itself was unfit for purpose. In fact, there is no 'perhaps' about it, IMO. It was. Still, what can you do? We had it. It was Leave. We must Leave. And I'm sure we will - eventually - probably with this Deal and under Blondie. I kind of hope we don't though. Well in one sense I do, but in another I don't. Lots of people have gotten themselves heavily invested in Brexit and if we don't do it they will get the monk on and, going by the looks of some of them, things might get a bit vulgar and reprehensible.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The delay in the EU decision on an extension is due to Corbyn continually moving the goal posts .

    The EU want to know is there going to be an election . Why should they grant 3 months to just sit and watch more bickering in the Commons .

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    What ever it is it is terrible and should be opposed by all right thinking people
    Not at all. Opportunities to lay Joe Biden at favourable prices are always to be welcomed.
    I had inadvisably further backed Warren at the top of the market.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608
    Just a thought (and apologies if the point has already been made down thread), but if the LDs are using the above line, doesn't that conclusively close off the Remain Alliance approach to a GE? Presumably, this has implications for UNS and similar becoming more useful predictors again?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Meeks, as a casual collector of unusual coins it'd be good to get my hands on one of those, even if they're never actually circulated.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    SunnyJim said:

    rpjs said:


    What happens if Holyrood withholds such?

    I wondered this earlier and was told parliament has primacy.

    So in a procedural sense Boris was right.
    Not quite. The Sewell convention is basically that Westminster can't pass laws in the areas of competence of the Holyrood and the other devolved parliaments. However a recent UKSC (I think) judgement claimed that this was only a 'political' decision. So Mr Johnson would be breaking an established procedure, if not quite illegally, then certainly at some political cost.
    It was Miller (No. 1) that decided that the Sewel convention, while recognised by statute as a political convention, did not have legal consequences.
    Of course yes - thank you.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    Carnyx said:


    Not quite. The Sewell convention is basically that Westminster can't pass laws in the areas of competence of the Holyrood and the other devolved parliaments. However a recent UKSC (I think) judgement claimed that this was only a 'political' decision. So Mr Johnson would be breaking an established procedure, if not quite illegally, then certainly at some political cost.

    If it helps the SNP further their independence battle then i'm not sure it will be a 'cost'.

    I suspect I am in a minority as a Conservative who wants to see Scotland and NI set free...Wales on the other hand I would move heaven and earth to stay together with.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited October 2019
    philiph said:

    Good to see the importance of the country party over party country.

    You do realize that what is being rolled out right now is the "Boris Johnson Project", don't you?

    You're not thinking it is about Brexit, I hope?

    Because if so, as the line goes, I have a bridge.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    Well, as the e-sports drivers won't be dealing with the physical effects of racing, in terms of g-forces on the body, I'd expect them to be faster.

    But

    Don't forget that the real drivers will be able to crash into the virtual ones without consequence, while the virtual ones will have to avoid drivers who cannot see them, and other virtual drivers. They'll effectively have a much more crowded race track, and that will slow them down a lot.
    A while a go one of the top drivers from a hard core driving sim was given a chance to drive a track he held a record time on for real.

    He was pretty good in real life but his body couldn't take the strain and he ended up throwing up.

    Can't find the video.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    edited October 2019
    There will be more than one side to this story.


    7 in fact.


    I'll see myself out.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Trivial in itself but it adds to the impression you can't believe a word this government says.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Nothing matters very much and few things matter at all, as a Prime Minister once said.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    philiph said:

    They are all brickies, waiting for lucrative contracts on the border.

    If we replace the 'br' with 'th' there, I think we might be on to something.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SunnyJim said:

    There will be more than one side to this story.


    7 in fact.


    I'll see myself out.
    [pedant] 9 [/pedant]
  • johntjohnt Posts: 166
    It is certainly true that Corbyn and the Labour Party have been a major factor in Brexit and the damage it has done and will continue to do to the country. I have always felt that Brexit should be implemented as long as the government of the day can do a deal which looks 90 plus percent like the arrangements which Vote Leave said they would get in the referendum of 2016. Delivering no Brexit or delivering a Brexit which delivered some, but not all the major commitments of the Vote Leave campaign are both exactly the same for me. Neither has a democratic mandate. It was obvious 18 months ago that the Vote Leave deal was not going to happen and that was the time when Corbyn and Labour should have said that the referendum result of 2016 was no longer sound enough to be safe. Personally I suspect that had he done that a way would have been found to pass May's deal at the start of the year subject to a referendum and we would now be moving forward. He failed to have a policy, parliament failed to have an effective opposition and MPs failed to find an option they could agree. The rest, as they say, is history.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    SunnyJim said:

    There will be more than one side to this story.


    7 in fact.


    I'll see myself out.
    9 surely - the top and bottom are also sides of a coin.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff. Why has Elizabeth Warren dramatically lengthened for the Democratic nomination and Joe Biden significantly shortened?

    New CNN poll shows him with biggest lead since April
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited October 2019
    Anorak said:

    People are funny like that though. I mean, you vote Leave, discover the promised land is in fact desolate wasteland, and the only food in the supermarket is drenched in chlorine, but you still can't quite admit that maybe it wasn't such a whizzo idea after all.

    Yes, I don't recall chlorinated chicken being on the ballot paper. If it had been would even 10% have voted for it, let alone 52%? Doubt it.
  • eek said:

    x

    Scott_P said:
    Don't they debate the QS for about 5 days before a vote?
    Yes - all last week, today and tomorrow.

    The vote would have been on Tuesday were it not for other issues taking over.
    I hadn't actually counted the days, but read this from our exMP yesterday..

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well he's now won, what, 2 votes? Back to form tomorrow I guess.
    Goodall should be aware that Queen's Speech votes all occur at the END of the debate, which is normally IIRC after 4 days of debate. So I expect nothing in particular from those days.
    Surprised that he got it wrong!

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Avout Biden, of course being the focus of a Trump hit job is going to make Biden popular with the Dem base.

    I feel like an idiot for not spotting that would happen.
  • Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    Well, as the e-sports drivers won't be dealing with the physical effects of racing, in terms of g-forces on the body, I'd expect them to be faster.

    But

    Don't forget that the real drivers will be able to crash into the virtual ones without consequence, while the virtual ones will have to avoid drivers who cannot see them, and other virtual drivers. They'll effectively have a much more crowded race track, and that will slow them down a lot.
    A while a go one of the top drivers from a hard core driving sim was given a chance to drive a track he held a record time on for real.

    He was pretty good in real life but his body couldn't take the strain and he ended up throwing up.

    Can't find the video.
    A gamer beat a Formula E driver in a real race earlier this year https://www.scmp.com/sport/motorsport/article/2183300/virtual-driver-enzo-bonito-beats-formula-e-champion-luca-di-grassi
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    eek said:

    SunnyJim said:

    There will be more than one side to this story.


    7 in fact.


    I'll see myself out.
    9 surely - the top and bottom are also sides of a coin.
    3 surely - the edge is one continuous curved face without any hard edges.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    eek said:


    9 surely - the top and bottom are also sides of a coin.

    It is a wonder i've got to this age without pausing to think a 50p has 9 sides and not 7.

    Sometimes PB gives you the stuff that really matters.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    SunnyJim said:

    Carnyx said:


    Not quite. The Sewell convention is basically that Westminster can't pass laws in the areas of competence of the Holyrood and the other devolved parliaments. However a recent UKSC (I think) judgement claimed that this was only a 'political' decision. So Mr Johnson would be breaking an established procedure, if not quite illegally, then certainly at some political cost.

    If it helps the SNP further their independence battle then i'm not sure it will be a 'cost'.

    I suspect I am in a minority as a Conservative who wants to see Scotland and NI set free...Wales on the other hand I would move heaven and earth to stay together with.
    That's an interesting perspective!

    The cost I had in mind was to Mr Johnson - but we may yet see.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    Well, as the e-sports drivers won't be dealing with the physical effects of racing, in terms of g-forces on the body, I'd expect them to be faster.

    But

    Don't forget that the real drivers will be able to crash into the virtual ones without consequence, while the virtual ones will have to avoid drivers who cannot see them, and other virtual drivers. They'll effectively have a much more crowded race track, and that will slow them down a lot.
    A while a go one of the top drivers from a hard core driving sim was given a chance to drive a track he held a record time on for real.

    He was pretty good in real life but his body couldn't take the strain and he ended up throwing up.

    Can't find the video.
    A gamer beat a Formula E driver in a real race earlier this year https://www.scmp.com/sport/motorsport/article/2183300/virtual-driver-enzo-bonito-beats-formula-e-champion-luca-di-grassi
    As I understand it the 'gamer' had had a fair amount of real racing experience by this point.
  • Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Noo said:

    Mr. B, don't know if it's happened yet or coming soon, but Formula E is going to enable gamers to 'drive' against the actual drivers in real time, combining gaming with sports coverage.

    It's a brilliant idea.

    Collisions that are risk-free for one party but dangerous for the other? Sounds like a recipe for slaughter.
    Indeed. Are the constructors really going to want to have their flounce-prone drivers beaten by a spotty 12 year old in Croydon playing in his bedroom?
    I'm presuming that the gamers will be driving virtually around the course, and can be knocked out by collision with real drivers, but won't have a physical presence on the track.
    Until some savant consistently knocks 3 seconds a lap off the times the real drivers can do. How is that good for the sport?
    Well, as the e-sports drivers won't be dealing with the physical effects of racing, in terms of g-forces on the body, I'd expect them to be faster.

    But

    Don't forget that the real drivers will be able to crash into the virtual ones without consequence, while the virtual ones will have to avoid drivers who cannot see them, and other virtual drivers. They'll effectively have a much more crowded race track, and that will slow them down a lot.
    A while a go one of the top drivers from a hard core driving sim was given a chance to drive a track he held a record time on for real.

    He was pretty good in real life but his body couldn't take the strain and he ended up throwing up.

    Can't find the video.
    A gamer beat a Formula E driver in a real race earlier this year https://www.scmp.com/sport/motorsport/article/2183300/virtual-driver-enzo-bonito-beats-formula-e-champion-luca-di-grassi
    As I understand it the 'gamer' had had a fair amount of real racing experience by this point.
    According to the article he had "had a handful of runs in a real car". Not sure how many races fit in a hand, but doesn't sound like much!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    edited October 2019
    Nigelb said: "Meanwhile, a plausible explanation for the Hillary odds:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/467021-clinton-2020-whisper-campaign-hits-new-heights"

    I`ve been quietly backing Hillary for a while now but up to now haven`t admitted it for fear of you taking the piss and calling me a mug punter.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,898

    Mr. Meeks, as a casual collector of unusual coins it'd be good to get my hands on one of those, even if they're never actually circulated.

    Especially if they're never circulated.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,322

    Nothing matters very much and few things matter at all, as a Prime Minister once said.
    I realise that nobody wins
    Something is ending
    And something begins
This discussion has been closed.