If it’s true that the EU now wants us out - and I am not convinced - what happens if the government does ask for an extension either for a referendum or a GE? Would it really refuse?
I still think a disorderly withdrawal is the most likely outcome. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
If the EU/UK agree a revised deal, with an explicit warning of no extensions, then it is probably the endgame.
Even without the rider of no extension being available parliament will be hard pressed to justify refusing to vote the deal through.
DUP+ERG+Tories+Labour MPs from leave seats+odds and sods...should be just about there.
If no extension is available, and therefore voting down the deal means leaving with no deal, why do the ERG vote Yes to a deal?
Because they will lose the whip if they vote it down.
If it’s true that the EU now wants us out - and I am not convinced - what happens if the government does ask for an extension either for a referendum or a GE? Would it really refuse?
I still think a disorderly withdrawal is the most likely outcome. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
If the EU/UK agree a revised deal, with an explicit warning of no extensions, then it is probably the endgame.
Even without the rider of no extension being available parliament will be hard pressed to justify refusing to vote the deal through.
DUP+ERG+Tories+Labour MPs from leave seats+odds and sods...should be just about there.
If no extension is available, and therefore voting down the deal means leaving with no deal, why do the ERG vote Yes to a deal?
Because they will lose the whip if they vote it down.
They'd give in to that threat? So much for their principles.
Surely it's time for Steve Radford to give up his fruitless fight to be the true voice of Liberalism?
The peculiarity is that the SDP was formed in large part as a reaction against Labour’s anti-Europeanism, and the Alliance and then LibDems have maintained the pro-EU stance of the original Liberal Party, yet today both the remnant SDP and the remnant Liberal Party are both pro-Brexit parties.
Japan's richest man has warned that Brexit is "practically impossible" and could take the United Kingdom back to the economic stagnation of the 1970s when the country was often described as the "sick man of Europe."
"I think Brexit is practically impossible because the old borders will be shaky and the UK has a Northern Ireland issue and a Scotland issue," Yanai told CNN Business. "Therefore, I think Brexit is difficult to realize even if the UK wants to do it."
"If Brexit does happen, the UK could revert back to the former situation before the Margaret Thatcher era, when the UK was referred to as the sick man of Europe. I'm afraid that could happen again."
Would that be the economic stagnation after we joined the EEC?
More importantly, who gives a flying f*ck what an elderly Japanese retailer who's spent next to no time in either the UK or the rest of the EU, and who has no record of successful economic forecasting, thinks?
Japan's richest man has warned that Brexit is "practically impossible" and could take the United Kingdom back to the economic stagnation of the 1970s when the country was often described as the "sick man of Europe."
"I think Brexit is practically impossible because the old borders will be shaky and the UK has a Northern Ireland issue and a Scotland issue," Yanai told CNN Business. "Therefore, I think Brexit is difficult to realize even if the UK wants to do it."
"If Brexit does happen, the UK could revert back to the former situation before the Margaret Thatcher era, when the UK was referred to as the sick man of Europe. I'm afraid that could happen again."
Would that be the economic stagnation after we joined the EEC?
More importantly, who gives a flying f*ck what an elderly Japanese retailer who's spent next to no time in either the UK or the rest of the EU, and who has no record of successful economic forecasting, thinks?
That's an amazingly stupid and ignorant statement.
He might like to read up on the Khmer Rouge to see how extremely left-wing movements can be nationalist and racist.
Stalin deported entire ethnic groups during WW2.
Sure there are lots of examples of left wing racism/nationalism and "exclusionary policy".
I mentioned the Khmer Rouge because they were about as far-left and as racist/nationalist as it is possible to be. They are the canonical example of Communism taken to its extreme.
Well Germany had a fairly famous national socialist party.
There are several things that depress me about the 2010's. It's a long list (...#37: People claiming "Star Trek:TMP" is a misunderstood classic. #38 Face tattoos, #39 "Thanks" instead of "please", #40...), and one of them is the proposition that the Nazis were socialist.
So. Go to your room and write out 100 times "the differences regarding property ownership and the militarisation of society are sufficient to regard Naziism as a subset of 20th century fascism rather than socialist". And don't come down until you have understood what you have done.
Nazi Germany was quite keen on state directed capitalism. Hitler hated the free market, because it was run by Americans and Brits, ruled secretly by Jews.
Nazism was a weird hybrid of socialist principles, rabid nationalism, quasi-religiose militarism and oodles of racism.
The party was in bed with a bunch of oligarchs who were running the economy; nothing socialist about that. Arguably Putin has jumped Russia from socialism to proto-fascism (of the pre-Hitler era; think Franco or Mussolini) with only the briefest flirtation with quasi-democracy in between.
Maybe.
One of the problems with this political taxonomy is that there is no really reliable definition of "Fascism". We all know what Communism and Marxism are: they have foundational texts, the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Mao. That makes hard leftwing thought quite easy to identify.
Fascism is much more nebulous and differentiated. Each example is unique. We think we know it when we see it, but do we? Some would see Fascism in, say, Mme Le Pen, others would see it more in Islamism.
For what it might be worth, I think the Nazis were well named: they were a mix of lurid nationalism and militarised socialism.
Japan's richest man has warned that Brexit is "practically impossible" and could take the United Kingdom back to the economic stagnation of the 1970s when the country was often described as the "sick man of Europe."
"I think Brexit is practically impossible because the old borders will be shaky and the UK has a Northern Ireland issue and a Scotland issue," Yanai told CNN Business. "Therefore, I think Brexit is difficult to realize even if the UK wants to do it."
"If Brexit does happen, the UK could revert back to the former situation before the Margaret Thatcher era, when the UK was referred to as the sick man of Europe. I'm afraid that could happen again."
Would that be the economic stagnation after we joined the EEC?
More importantly, who gives a flying f*ck what an elderly Japanese retailer who's spent next to no time in either the UK or the rest of the EU, and who has no record of successful economic forecasting, thinks?
That's an amazingly stupid and ignorant statement.
He might like to read up on the Khmer Rouge to see how extremely left-wing movements can be nationalist and racist.
Stalin deported entire ethnic groups during WW2.
Sure there are lots of examples of left wing racism/nationalism and "exclusionary policy".
I mentioned the Khmer Rouge because they were about as far-left and as racist/nationalist as it is possible to be. They are the canonical example of Communism taken to its extreme.
Well Germany had a fairly famous national socialist party.
There are several things that depress me about the 2010's. It's a long list (...#37: People claiming "Star Trek:TMP" is a misunderstood classic. #38 Face tattoos, #39 "Thanks" instead of "please", #40...), and one of them is the proposition that the Nazis were socialist.
So. Go to your room and write out 100 times "the differences regarding property ownership and the militarisation of society are sufficient to regard Naziism as a subset of 20th century fascism rather than socialist". And don't come down until you have understood what you have done.
In my personal definition of socialism it is first and foremost about internationalism - "Workers of the world unite..." whereas fascism is first and foremost about nationalism and the superiority of the people of one nation over others.
So my definition makes the two opposites, and any claim that one is related to the other I can dismiss as a misuse of words - it's hardly uncommon for people to use words to mislead, rather than to be honest.
However, if people use a different definition of socialism - as @Byronic does below in equating socialism to state direction of the economy - then it is possible to reasonably come to a different conclusion as a result.
First by election of the night has labour down 17 in liverpool, libs and LDs up and Tories up fractionally but under 5%. Consistent with other results recently
I remember after the exit poll in 2017 some people held out for a time that it could not be the case because the first results to come in from some of the Labour northern heartlands were not that great. We had the same thing this year in the locals as the Tories were doing ok in a number of areas in the first few hours.
In an area as dominated by one party in recent times as that I don't know what we can really learn even when it does align with recent results generally.
Interesting to see the Liberals standing.
I wish the Liberals would stand here. I would quite like the opportunity to vote for a party somewhere left of the centre of the political spectrum whose members don't think that the EU is the best thing since sliced bread.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Farage is an irrelevance once Brexit is done.
Nope. The populist right always find someone or something new to blame. If the economy suffers, Farage will be blaming the government and the E.U.
He seemed happy to retire in 2016. I've no love for the man but he's clearly got interests outside of politics so I could see him riding off into the sunset. There'll be plenty of others of course.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Farage is an irrelevance once Brexit is done.
Nope. The populist right always find someone or something new to blame. If the economy suffers, Farage will be blaming the government and the E.U.
He seemed happy to retire in 2016. I've no love for the man but he's clearly got interests outside of politics so I could see him riding off into the sunset. There'll be plenty of others of course.
Nigel wants to be super-rich, like all his bad boy buddies.
If it’s true that the EU now wants us out - and I am not convinced - what happens if the government does ask for an extension either for a referendum or a GE? Would it really refuse?
I still think a disorderly withdrawal is the most likely outcome. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
If the EU/UK agree a revised deal, with an explicit warning of no extensions, then it is probably the endgame.
Even without the rider of no extension being available parliament will be hard pressed to justify refusing to vote the deal through.
DUP+ERG+Tories+Labour MPs from leave seats+odds and sods...should be just about there.
If no extension is available, and therefore voting down the deal means leaving with no deal, why do the ERG vote Yes to a deal?
Because they will lose the whip if they vote it down.
They'd give in to that threat? So much for their principles.
What principles?
There is a principled objection to May's backstop - and rightly so - but all the ERG voted for the Brady Amendment [WDA minus backstop].
If Boris comes back with a new deal that meets the Brady Amendment then it should be accepted by everyone holding the Tory whip, who voted to accept that in principle months ago.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Farage is an irrelevance once Brexit is done.
Nope. The populist right always find someone or something new to blame. If the economy suffers, Farage will be blaming the government and the E.U.
He seemed happy to retire in 2016. I've no love for the man but he's clearly got interests outside of politics so I could see him riding off into the sunset. There'll be plenty of others of course.
It’s amazing how the Farage haters completely ignore the fact he stepped away for three years thinking his work was done. They seem convinced he must have somehow known that parliament would try to block Brexit so he could de enter the fray. What if the Tories had won that big majority in 2017? He didn’t even stand!
That's an amazingly stupid and ignorant statement.
He might like to read up on the Khmer Rouge to see how extremely left-wing movements can be nationalist and racist.
Stalin deported entire ethnic groups during WW2.
Sure there are lots of examples of left wing racism/nationalism and "exclusionary policy".
I mentioned the Khmer Rouge because they were about as far-left and as racist/nationalist as it is possible to be. They are the canonical example of Communism taken to its extreme.
Well Germany had a fairly famous national socialist party.
Nazi Germany was quite keen on state directed capitalism. Hitler hated the free market, because it was run by Americans and Brits, ruled secretly by Jews.
Nazism was a weird hybrid of socialist principles, rabid nationalism, quasi-religiose militarism and oodles of racism.
The party was in bed with a bunch of oligarchs who were running the economy; nothing socialist about that. Arguably Putin has jumped Russia from socialism to proto-fascism (of the pre-Hitler era; think Franco or Mussolini) with only the briefest flirtation with quasi-democracy in between.
Maybe.
One of the problems with this political taxonomy is that there is no really reliable definition of "Fascism". We all know what Communism and Marxism are: they have foundational texts, the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Mao. That makes hard leftwing thought quite easy to identify.
Fascism is much more nebulous and differentiated. Each example is unique. We think we know it when we see it, but do we? Some would see Fascism in, say, Mme Le Pen, others would see it more in Islamism.
For what it might be worth, I think the Nazis were well named: they were a mix of lurid nationalism and militarised socialism.
Payne’s oft cited critieria/characteristics are:
- its negations: anti-liberal, anti-communist, anti-conservative; - its goals: nationalist dictatorship regulating economic structure (but not all activity, as in communism) and social relations within a self-determined culture and imperialistic tone; - its style: romantic symbolism, mass mobilisation, violence, promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic leadership
If it’s true that the EU now wants us out - and I am not convinced - what happens if the government does ask for an extension either for a referendum or a GE? Would it really refuse?
I still think a disorderly withdrawal is the most likely outcome. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
If the EU/UK agree a revised deal, with an explicit warning of no extensions, then it is probably the endgame.
Even without the rider of no extension being available parliament will be hard pressed to justify refusing to vote the deal through.
DUP+ERG+Tories+Labour MPs from leave seats+odds and sods...should be just about there.
If no extension is available, and therefore voting down the deal means leaving with no deal, why do the ERG vote Yes to a deal?
Because they will lose the whip if they vote it down.
They'd give in to that threat? So much for their principles.
What principles?
There is a principled objection to May's backstop - and rightly so - but all the ERG voted for the Brady Amendment [WDA minus backstop].
If Boris comes back with a new deal that meets the Brady Amendment then it should be accepted by everyone holding the Tory whip, who voted to accept that in principle months ago.
They present as being really principled was the point, and that they would have to own up to that not being as definitive as they pretend.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
How are his core supporters responding? Because it is one of those situations where imagining if it was an opponent saying the same things and the same incidents will be very useful to seeing how reasonable those supporters are being.
LibDems close the gap on the Tories in Wiltshire but a Tory hold
In the 2014 by-election, admittedly with more candidates, the Tory won by 8%, before it returning to a more sizable lead in the regular election 3 years later. With it being a strong area for the Tories, a very well liked incumbent whose widow was standing, I'd have been astounded if the LDs had won it - but a good fight from them.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Blair never lost an election, even in 2005 when the shine had fully come off.
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
You’re saying it’s a really silly idea, utterly inconsistent, and would go down like a lead balloon with the public? Corbyn will definitely do it then.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
You’re saying it’s a really silly idea, utterly inconsistent, and would go down like a lead balloon with the public? Corbyn will definitely do it then:
That's an amazingly stupid and ignorant statement.
He might like to read up on the Khmer Rouge to see how extremely left-wing movements can be nationalist and racist.
Stalin deported entire ethnic groups during WW2.
Sure there are lots of examples of left wing racism/nationalism and "exclusionary policy".
I mentioned the Khmer Rouge because they were about as far-left and as racist/nationalist as it is possible to be. They are the canonical example of Communism taken to its extreme.
Well Germany had a fairly famous national socialist party.
Nazi Germany was quite keen on state directed capitalism. Hitler hated the free market, because it was run by Americans and Brits, ruled secretly by Jews.
Nazism was a weird hybrid of socialist principles, rabid nationalism, quasi-religiose militarism and oodles of racism.
The party was in bed with a bunch of oligarchs who were running the economy; nothing socialist about that. Arguably Putin has jumped Russia from socialism to proto-fascism (of the pre-Hitler era; think Franco or Mussolini) with only the briefest flirtation with quasi-democracy in between.
Maybe.
One of the problems with this political taxonomy is that there is no really reliable definition of "Fascism". We all know what Communism and Marxism are: they have foundational texts, the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Mao. That makes hard leftwing thought quite easy to identify.
Fascism is much more nebulous and differentiated. Each example is unique. We think we know it when we see it, but do we? Some would see Fascism in, say, Mme Le Pen, others would see it more in Islamism.
For what it might be worth, I think the Nazis were well named: they were a mix of lurid nationalism and militarised socialism.
Payne’s oft cited critieria/characteristics are:
- its negations: anti-liberal, anti-communist, anti-conservative; - its goals: nationalist dictatorship regulating economic structure (but not all activity, as in communism) and social relations within a self-determined culture and imperialistic tone; - its style: romantic symbolism, mass mobilisation, violence, promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic leadership
The USSR meets every one of those except anti-communist.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
The only way we'd ever get let back in is if Article 50 is canned. You can check out, but you can never leave.
Good luck for keeping its deposiits to any party saying it will go down that road based on a Westminster majority and no further referendum.
If it’s true that the EU now wants us out - and I am not convinced - what happens if the government does ask for an extension either for a referendum or a GE? Would it really refuse?
I still think a disorderly withdrawal is the most likely outcome. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
If the EU/UK agree a revised deal, with an explicit warning of no extensions, then it is probably the endgame.
Even without the rider of no extension being available parliament will be hard pressed to justify refusing to vote the deal through.
DUP+ERG+Tories+Labour MPs from leave seats+odds and sods...should be just about there.
If no extension is available, and therefore voting down the deal means leaving with no deal, why do the ERG vote Yes to a deal?
Because they will lose the whip if they vote it down.
They'd give in to that threat? So much for their principles.
What principles?
There is a principled objection to May's backstop - and rightly so - but all the ERG voted for the Brady Amendment [WDA minus backstop].
If Boris comes back with a new deal that meets the Brady Amendment then it should be accepted by everyone holding the Tory whip, who voted to accept that in principle months ago.
They present as being really principled was the point, and that they would have to own up to that not being as definitive as they pretend.
I don't see why.
Johnson comes back and says "I've achieved a deal along the lines that Parliament already approved previously in the Brady Amendment. All Tories holding the whip said they would support the deal if this was negotiated and now that it has been negotiated its a matter of confidence that we get Brexit over the line." Do the ERG?
A: Say mission accomplished, vote the deal through, Brexit occurs. B: Reject the deal despite having said they'd back it at the Brady Amendment, give up the Tory whip, see an election where "revoke Article 50 without a referendum" is one major parties policy and not be allowed to stand as a Conservative at that election.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Hes now had the cheek to say his privilege stopped him knowing it was wrong and racist. Hes the victim here you see
I thought he was saying that blacking up was the best way for him to experience the intolerence and prejudice suffered by people of ethnic minority ethnicity.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Blair never lost an election, even in 2005 when the shine had fully come off.
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
That would be great. But I suspect the reality is that the backstop will have been modified, perhaps in-line with Arlene's proposal that Stormont can take Northern Ireland out of it.
Which is both progress, an increase in democratic accountability, but also probably makes it significantly less likely than Northern Ireland will ever leave the backstop.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
That would be great. But I suspect the reality is that the backstop will have been modified, perhaps in-line with Arlene's proposal that Stormont can take Northern Ireland out of it.
Which is both progress, an increase in democratic accountability, but also probably makes it significantly less likely than Northern Ireland will ever leave the backstop.
Whether it would ever actually leave seems not to have troubled them in the first place, or even if they would enter it.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Blair never lost an election, even in 2005 when the shine had fully come off.
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
He wasn't putting on blackface simply as a part in school plays, I don't think many people would hold children in school plays to account for their parts.
He did it as a 29 year old Teacher at a school party. Teachers are generally held to higher standards than students and generally have more self-awareness than students.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
Indeed I'd welcome the Scots taking an opportunity for self-determination with open arms. Sadly they've turned it down twice so far, don't see any reason they'll be less frit the third time.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
Well I suppose you might be right. I mean there’s no evidence at all for that assertion but I guess I can’t prove my expectation either (I’m not sure Scotland will actually vote to leave and I think rejoining the EU will rapidly become a minority cause). Time will tell.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
In that case why are all the politicians for whom you vote so keen to stop Scotland deciding whether it should have another vote on the subject? Perhaps you should have a word with them.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
Unless the Labour MP defects to the LDs. There was some speculation about it a few days ago.
At some point you have to wonder if it’ll actually become the long foretold stampede, given polling movements and the full on SWP takeover. Slight risk to the LibDems in that if they have very few genuinely Liberal MPs who’ve grown up with the party.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
In that case why are all the politicians for whom you vote so keen to stop Scotland deciding whether it should have another vote on the subject? Perhaps you should have a word with them.
I would support Scotland having another vote. Sadly you guys already had one and gave the wrong answer - had we rejected freedom when offered it in 2016 I don't think many in Westminster would have been keen on giving us a second vote either.
Ideal for me would have been an October election with a landslide English Tory and Scottish SNP majority. Tories giving a mandate for resolving Brexit and SNP giving a mandate for SindyRef2.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
In that case why are all the politicians for whom you vote so keen to stop Scotland deciding whether it should have another vote on the subject? Perhaps you should have a word with them.
Sadly I am but one man, but if you help install me as Lord Protector I’ll gladly give you a vote.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Blair never lost an election, even in 2005 when the shine had fully come off.
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
He wasn't putting on blackface simply as a part in school plays, I don't think many people would hold children in school plays to account for their parts.
He did it as a 29 year old Teacher at a school party. Teachers are generally held to higher standards than students and generally have more self-awareness than students.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
Indeed I'd welcome the Scots taking an opportunity for self-determination with open arms. Sadly they've turned it down twice so far, don't see any reason they'll be less frit the third time.
I always thought that had the English had a vote on Scottish independence, Scotland would be gone.Of Scottish extraction, I would have shed no tears, my pocket having benefited.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Blair never lost an election, even in 2005 when the shine had fully come off.
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
He wasn't putting on blackface simply as a part in school plays, I don't think many people would hold children in school plays to account for their parts.
He did it as a 29 year old Teacher at a school party. Teachers are generally held to higher standards than students and generally have more self-awareness than students.
You haven't met many teachers, I take it.
I don't know if you're joking or serious. My nan was one and my sister-in-law is one. Both believed in propriety and my sister-in-law won't use her real name on her Facebook profile [she has her middle name as her surname on Facebook] so kids can't find her there. She's said that even dodgy Facebook posts can get you in trouble if you're not careful.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
In that case why are all the politicians for whom you vote so keen to stop Scotland deciding whether it should have another vote on the subject? Perhaps you should have a word with them.
Sadly I am but one man, but if you help install me as Lord Protector I’ll gladly give you a vote.
Since I am but one anonymous bloke on the internet, my ability to help another anonymous bloke on the internet to become Lord Protector is zilch. Always available to point out inconsistencies in their positions tho'.
Justin Trudeau's re-election campaign isn't exactly going to plan is it.
I'd say the latest quote that he can't remember how many times he's blacked up is the most damaging of all.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
Blair never lost an election, even in 2005 when the shine had fully come off.
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
He wasn't putting on blackface simply as a part in school plays, I don't think many people would hold children in school plays to account for their parts.
He did it as a 29 year old Teacher at a school party. Teachers are generally held to higher standards than students and generally have more self-awareness than students.
You haven't met many teachers, I take it.
I don't know if you're joking or serious. My nan was one and my sister-in-law is one. Both believed in propriety and my sister-in-law won't use her real name on her Facebook profile [she has her middle name as her surname on Facebook] so kids can't find her there. She's said that even dodgy Facebook posts can get you in trouble if you're not careful.
I think Larry Olivier is dead but woe betide him if he's not
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Farage is an irrelevance once Brexit is done.
Well, that would be a plus, I guess.
Totally unrelated, I've just watched the first part of the BBC's Rise of the Nazis; bloody hell that's scary.
I've been disappointed with it - nowhere near as forensic or compelling as The Nazis: A Warning from History from 15+ years ago. Some really unconvincing 'experts' - particularly in episode 2.
The Tories: A Warning from History.
Episode 1: 2010 - Helped Into Power.
Indeed - the LibDems are no more to be trusted or forgiven than Von Papen and Hugenberg!
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
In that case why are all the politicians for whom you vote so keen to stop Scotland deciding whether it should have another vote on the subject? Perhaps you should have a word with them.
Sadly I am but one man, but if you help install me as Lord Protector I’ll gladly give you a vote.
Since I am but one anonymous bloke on the internet, my ability to help another anonymous bloke on the internet to become Lord Protector is zilch. Always available to point out inconsistencies in their positions tho'.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Farage is an irrelevance once Brexit is done.
Well, that would be a plus, I guess.
Totally unrelated, I've just watched the first part of the BBC's Rise of the Nazis; bloody hell that's scary.
I've been disappointed with it - nowhere near as forensic or compelling as The Nazis: A Warning from History from 15+ years ago. Some really unconvincing 'experts' - particularly in episode 2.
The Tories: A Warning from History.
Episode 1: 2010 - Helped Into Power.
Indeed - the LibDems are no more to be trusted or forgiven than Von Papen and Hugenberg!
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
Unless the Labour MP defects to the LDs. There was some speculation about it a few days ago.
At some point you have to wonder if it’ll actually become the long foretold stampede, given polling movements and the full on SWP takeover. Slight risk to the LibDems in that if they have very few genuinely Liberal MPs who’ve grown up with the party.
If there is a GE it will rebalance with a loss of some at least of the defectors and hopefully a good number of gains by long established LibDem candidates in target seats.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
Sorry william but the word's moved on.
Trying to run your life around some imagined grand historical arc is only going to lead to unhappiness. And you are as guilty of this as williamglenn.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
Sorry william but the word's moved on.
Trying to run your life around some imagined grand historical arc is only going to lead to unhappiness. And you are as guilty of this as williamglenn.
See Popper: The Poverty of Historicism.
See Popper: The Open Society And Its Enemies. You're both in bed with the latter.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
A stable majority for EU membership where? Scotland? Maybe.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Because England will still be part of the continental economy and will not want to be a marginalised rule-taker.
No we won't, we will as we've always been part of the global economy. And rules are and will be set on a global level.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
You left off ageing
Europe is history. This attempt to unite Europe as some modern superpower to shape the world is just a sad and rather desperate attempt by people like william to return to an age of European dominance and European empires. To cling to an age where Europe mattered.
It's sad to see such a beautiful, if ferociously effective war machine politicised. Our ability to replace losses quicker than the Nazis proved we could be better manufacturers than them, at least in the 1940s.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
Johnson can hardly complain given he has made two attempts to call an election. Labour and the other Opposition parties will vote against the Queens Speech. If that succeeds a VNOC would naturally follow.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
Johnson can hardly complain given he has made two attempts to call an election. Labour and the other Opposition parties will vote against the Queens Speech. If that succeeds a VNOC would naturally follow.
And the voters will be in a veangeful mood......but not against Boris.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
Johnson can hardly complain given he has made two attempts to call an election. Labour and the other Opposition parties will vote against the Queens Speech. If that succeeds a VNOC would naturally follow.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
Johnson can hardly complain given he has made two attempts to call an election. Labour and the other Opposition parties will vote against the Queens Speech. If that succeeds a VNOC would naturally follow.
And the voters will be in a veangeful mood......but not against Boris.
How can he complain when he has twice invited Parliament to vote for an election and accused Corbyn of being'frit'? Beyond that, his own credibility is collapsing week by week.
OT How is Farage going to react to this purported deal? Does it depend on the specifics or is any deal a sell-out as far as he's concerned?
Farage's reaction could affect BoJo's prospects if the deal materialises and gets past the HoC.
Does it matter? If we get out of the EU with a deal and Boris falls that's surely a double win.
As a Remainer I was nevertheless keen to see May's deal approved so, assuming Boris's 'deal' is simply May's with a bit of added fudge and waffle, I'd be ok with it.
Still a lot of hurdles to cross though before Boris can declare a deal is done.
Why would Labour wish to provide someone as widely despised as Johnson with support which they denied to Theresa May?
I believe the thinking is*, if the EU have had enough of Brexit they won't offer an extension so the HoC would be faced with Deal or No Deal.
(*I don't buy it myself but I can see the logic)
If it came to that, it would be better to table a VNOC to effectively prevent the deal being presented to Parliament. It seems unlikely that the EU would refuse an Extension to facilitate an election being held.
Just think about that.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
Johnson can hardly complain given he has made two attempts to call an election. Labour and the other Opposition parties will vote against the Queens Speech. If that succeeds a VNOC would naturally follow.
Does this count as putting the country first?
Most certainly - anything which helps to rid us of such a malign, cancerous, figure as Johnson and his tyrannical helpers.
I see HY and MM have both come out as Democrat supporters.
I've never been a Republican supporter.....
It depends who the Republican is.
Reagan was great but since then . . . only decent GOP candidate for Presidency in my adult lifetime was John McCain. He would have made a fantastic President, it is such a shame that he lost the 2000 Primaries and that when he finally won the primaries he ran into Obama.
The Democrats aren't much better though. Bill Clinton was OK, but the only decent Democratic candidate of my adult lifetime was Obama.
If I lived in America today I'd have to vote Democrat. If I'd been living in America 30 years ago [as myself now] I'd have been a swing voter identifying more with the GOP but not now.
If most EU countries want us gone now, then that presents a big problem for rejoiners if we do leave. The 27 are not going to want to go through this rigmarole again, so if we want back in, there'll have to be confident we'd stay in for good. Even the Lib Dems winning a GE on an explicit rejoin policy might not be enough, if the country is still divided on the issue. So, we basically go back to what our relationship with Europe was in the 60's. Begging to be let in, but constantly being refused.
Northern Ireland has an automatic 'in'. Scotland would be welcomed with open arms. After that, it will be a very different England and Wales that rejoin.
I still don’t understand why you think leave voters in England would have any issue with Scotland deciding to go its own way should it want to? By definition we’re quite keen on the idea of self determination....
It's the Leave elite who would be chastened by it, and ordinary Leave voters will get what they voted for originally: a sovereign England. The effect of those shifts will be a stable majority for EU membership.
Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving would be catastrophic for both Rejoin and left of centre politics in this country.
Unless the Labour MP defects to the LDs. There was some speculation about it a few days ago.
At some point you have to wonder if it’ll actually become the long foretold stampede, given polling movements and the full on SWP takeover. Slight risk to the LibDems in that if they have very few genuinely Liberal MPs who’ve grown up with the party.
If there is a GE it will rebalance with a loss of some at least of the defectors and hopefully a good number of gains by long established LibDem candidates in target seats.
Incredible that some Labour activists in Kent do want rid of their only MP as she's apparently not Corbynite enough.
I see HY and MM have both come out as Democrat supporters.
I've never been a Republican supporter.....
It depends who the Republican is.
Reagan was great but since then . . . only decent GOP candidate for Presidency in my adult lifetime was John McCain. He would have made a fantastic President, it is such a shame that he lost the 2000 Primaries and that when he finally won the primaries he ran into Obama.
The Democrats aren't much better though. Bill Clinton was OK, but the only decent Democratic candidate of my adult lifetime was Obama.
If I lived in America today I'd have to vote Democrat. If I'd been living in America 30 years ago [as myself now] I'd have been a swing voter identifying more with the GOP but not now.
McCain was all reputation and no substance. No halfway decent leader puts Sarah Palin as his VP.
Comments
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1174811236728475649?s=21
One of the problems with this political taxonomy is that there is no really reliable definition of "Fascism". We all know what Communism and Marxism are: they have foundational texts, the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Mao. That makes hard leftwing thought quite easy to identify.
Fascism is much more nebulous and differentiated. Each example is unique. We think we know it when we see it, but do we? Some would see Fascism in, say, Mme Le Pen, others would see it more in Islamism.
For what it might be worth, I think the Nazis were well named: they were a mix of lurid nationalism and militarised socialism.
So my definition makes the two opposites, and any claim that one is related to the other I can dismiss as a misuse of words - it's hardly uncommon for people to use words to mislead, rather than to be honest.
However, if people use a different definition of socialism - as @Byronic does below in equating socialism to state direction of the economy - then it is possible to reasonably come to a different conclusion as a result.
He can be bought off by Boris.
There is a principled objection to May's backstop - and rightly so - but all the ERG voted for the Brady Amendment [WDA minus backstop].
If Boris comes back with a new deal that meets the Brady Amendment then it should be accepted by everyone holding the Tory whip, who voted to accept that in principle months ago.
I am sure most people on pb.com can remember exactly how many times we have blacked up.
As with Tony, once the Teflon begins to peel, then the end is close at hand.
- its negations: anti-liberal, anti-communist, anti-conservative;
- its goals: nationalist dictatorship regulating economic structure (but not all activity, as in communism) and social relations within a self-determined culture and imperialistic tone;
- its style: romantic symbolism, mass mobilisation, violence, promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic leadership
Hes the victim here you see
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49763805
** Has any PBer ever done the blackface thing ?
From what I have seen most Canadian voters interviewed don't seem that bothered, it was done when he was young before he was a politician and he has apologised.
The Canadian election may be won on many things but it will not be won on what parts Justin Trudeau played in school plays
It's the kind of thing, you know, that's hard to forget.
And I wear my number proudly.
Sixty four times.
Tories will fancy retaking Canterbury
4,139 times.
I don't see it as an issue.
A Brexit deal is on the table. It is proposd by the PM. It is an advance on what May and Robbins spent 3 years telling us was impossible to achieve. But more importantly, it offers what virtually every sentient voter wants - an end to fucking Brexit.
And then Corbyn goes and fucks it all up by saying "actually you know, I DO want a General Election now."
Conservatives win Bootle......
But I've never done a whiteface red-nose clown thing either. I mean, why would I ever try to vary my quite beautiful visage?
(the author wishes to assure the masses that racism is not joke and hopes to retain their pc credentials)
Good luck for keeping its deposiits to any party saying it will go down that road based on a Westminster majority and no further referendum.
Johnson comes back and says "I've achieved a deal along the lines that Parliament already approved previously in the Brady Amendment. All Tories holding the whip said they would support the deal if this was negotiated and now that it has been negotiated its a matter of confidence that we get Brexit over the line." Do the ERG?
A: Say mission accomplished, vote the deal through, Brexit occurs.
B: Reject the deal despite having said they'd back it at the Brady Amendment, give up the Tory whip, see an election where "revoke Article 50 without a referendum" is one major parties policy and not be allowed to stand as a Conservative at that election.
Which is both progress, an increase in democratic accountability, but also probably makes it significantly less likely than Northern Ireland will ever leave the backstop.
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1174783233608900610
He did it as a 29 year old Teacher at a school party. Teachers are generally held to higher standards than students and generally have more self-awareness than students.
England will have gotten itself free of the shackles of Scots and continentals, why would we return?
Ideal for me would have been an October election with a landslide English Tory and Scottish SNP majority. Tories giving a mandate for resolving Brexit and SNP giving a mandate for SindyRef2.
Its a shame you can't see through your myopia to realise there's a big wide world outside of Europe. Europe is just one small piddly continent.
Osborne is very, very bitter with everyone isn't he?
Sorry william but the word's moved on.
https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688?s=20
See Popper: The Poverty of Historicism.
Reagan was great but since then . . . only decent GOP candidate for Presidency in my adult lifetime was John McCain. He would have made a fantastic President, it is such a shame that he lost the 2000 Primaries and that when he finally won the primaries he ran into Obama.
The Democrats aren't much better though. Bill Clinton was OK, but the only decent Democratic candidate of my adult lifetime was Obama.
If I lived in America today I'd have to vote Democrat. If I'd been living in America 30 years ago [as myself now] I'd have been a swing voter identifying more with the GOP but not now.