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  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    nico67 said:

    The UK doesn’t want to write any of its proposals down in case they leak .

    So it’s going to be done telepathically!

    But they've just discovered you need a brain for that.

    Life is cruel.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    Jacket potato update: they are looking crisp AF.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.

    I can quite easily imagine a very political PM seeking a confrontation with a foreign political leader for domestic gain.

    While they are guests in your country - not in the UK and not in most civilised countries.
    Trump ?
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Byronic said:

    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk.

    You can take it as a given the Mail will use a pic that makes Juncker look like he's on his fifth bottle of the day. Easy to do that with anyone when you have a few thousand photos to pick from.
  • nico67 said:

    The UK doesn’t want to write any of its proposals down in case they leak .

    So it’s going to be done telepathically!

    ESP = Eurosceptic Sensory Perception
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,607
    edited September 2019
    Very smart positioning by Jo Swinson in my opinion. It could come unstuck if Johnson reaches an acceptable deal before the election but even that is debatable. There aren't many USPs with a potential market of 16,500,000 gagging for it.

  • Yep - I see a Luxembourg PM seeing an opportunity to make political hay by attacking an immensely unpopular UK PM. These are not opportunities that the PM of Luxembourg usually gets. To be honest, I doubnt if Merkel is that concerned. A deal will not be scuppered by Luxembourg.

    Immensely unpopular?

    Views on handling of Johnson's handling of Brexit
    Approve 37/ Disapprove 43 Net -6

    I'm not sure what opposition party you currently intend voting for, but the comparative figures for responses of party leaders were:
    Corbyn 17/60 Net -43
    Swinson 21/33 Net -12

    Opinium 12th Sept 2019
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,873
    Chris said:

    Is there any evidence he has the ability to take on hecklers?

    When confronted by that lone heckler in Morley he seemed absolutely lost for words.

    No, maybe not. In fact, now I really think about it, although I do think he can be very effective in unstructured settings, I suppose that it IS usually clowning around with a supportive audience. And even then the likes of Jimmy Tarbuck are probably a touch better.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852

    kinabalu said:

    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?

    I would have thought a crowd booing at him would have played well to Leavers. He has certainly missed an opportunity.
    He has remarkable similarities with Trump. They both like adulation and cannot stand criticism.
    I've just listened to the Luxembourg PM's speech. It was hardly a baying mob, barely a crowd:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49714338/brexit-press-conference-goes-on-without-johnson

    Bit of a wimp, our PM.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    Byronic said:

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk. Johnson looks smiley and uncaring.

    Everyone else looks like thunder. From Barnier down.

    Hmm. This kinda supports the alternative narrative (also on Twitter) that something really really bad happened in the meeting, and it enraged the Europeans, and the Luxembourgers snapped and refused to move the presser, and then their PM went into his rant...
    Have you listened to it ?
    It was mildly undiplomatic, but a very long way from a rant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    edited September 2019
    OllyT said:

    ab195 said:

    ab195 said:

    I won’t be the only person in this country whose reaction to those pictures is “f#ck ‘em”.

    The only question is whether there’s enough of us in the right places to return a Gvt at the next election. It’s 50/50 I reckon.

    Knock yourselves out. You could elect Godfrey Bloom Prime Minister for all the difference it would make to the reality of our choices.
    So I’m racist and sexist? You people really are the worst kind of pond scum and at some point in the next ten years I’ll get to watch you fail to get your own way for the first time in your posh lives. It’s going to be hilarious.
    Bloody hell talk about looking for reasons to be offended and go off on an unhinged rant.
    'Unhinged' ?
    Par for the course on PB.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,873

    I would have thought a crowd booing at him would have played well to Leavers. He has certainly missed an opportunity.
    He has remarkable similarities with Trump. They both like adulation and cannot stand criticism.

    That was really my point - some hurly burly might have played well for him.

    Like Trump? OK, in certain ways. But on the whole, no, because Boris Johnson does have his good points. Not many, mark, but some. He is not wholly malign.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    Andrew said:

    Byronic said:

    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk.

    You can take it as a given the Mail will use a pic that makes Juncker look like he's on his fifth bottle of the day. Easy to do that with anyone when you have a few thousand photos to pick from.
    Even easier with someone on his fifth bottle of the day!
  • The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    When a Tory PM loses the Daily Mail it really is serious.
    The Mail edited by Greig is more pro-establishment than the ~25 years of Dacre ranting and raving at the EU; that drip, drip of poison by itself probably shifted the referendum result a few percentage points. Perhaps the Torygraph, Sun and Express now represent what the real headbangers think.

    By establishment I mean the centre ground of UK politics and business, like the FT. I now think of the FT as more a Lib.Dem paper, it could hardly have a policy of F*** Business.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    nico67 said:

    The UK doesn’t want to write any of its proposals down in case they leak .

    So it’s going to be done telepathically!

    We're not going to tell you what our proposals are until you agree with them...

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Scott_P said:
    Apparently he was terrified of being hit by an errant croissant !

    Bozo the tough guy stomps off.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Nigelb said:

    We're not going to tell you what our proposals are until you agree with them...

    Don't tell 'em, Pike!
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?

    I would have thought a crowd booing at him would have played well to Leavers. He has certainly missed an opportunity.
    He has remarkable similarities with Trump. They both like adulation and cannot stand criticism.
    I've just listened to the Luxembourg PM's speech. It was hardly a baying mob, barely a crowd:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49714338/brexit-press-conference-goes-on-without-johnson

    Bit of a wimp, our PM.
    Not a baying mob??!!

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1173604433650958337?s=20
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,792

    Regardless, it’s good to see all the snowflakes are throwing a tantrum and resorting to childish insults about Luxembourg.

    Doesn't take long for what lurks beneath the surface to emerge does it?
  • BFC = Boris Fried Chicken
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited September 2019

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    When a Tory PM loses the Daily Mail it really is serious.
    The Mail edited by Greig is more pro-establishment than the ~25 years of Dacre ranting and raving at the EU; that drip, drip of poison by itself probably shifted the referendum result a few percentage points. Perhaps the Torygraph, Sun and Express now represent what the real headbangers think.

    By establishment I mean the centre ground of UK politics and business, like the FT. I now think of the FT as more a Lib.Dem paper, it could hardly have a policy of F*** Business.
    If the Brexit supporting media stopped whipping up its readership about Brexit, a deal might actually be possible or failing that revoke. The problem with another referundum is unless some of the Brexit supporting media change side, many people will follow the Brexit supporting media line on Brexit and vote for it again despite what has transpired since 2016...
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,792
    Nigelb said:

    OllyT said:

    ab195 said:

    ab195 said:

    I won’t be the only person in this country whose reaction to those pictures is “f#ck ‘em”.

    The only question is whether there’s enough of us in the right places to return a Gvt at the next election. It’s 50/50 I reckon.

    Knock yourselves out. You could elect Godfrey Bloom Prime Minister for all the difference it would make to the reality of our choices.
    So I’m racist and sexist? You people really are the worst kind of pond scum and at some point in the next ten years I’ll get to watch you fail to get your own way for the first time in your posh lives. It’s going to be hilarious.
    Bloody hell talk about looking for reasons to be offended and go off on an unhinged rant.
    'Unhinged' ?
    Par for the course on PB.
    You think that was a rational response?
  • BFC = Boris Fried Chicken

    Ha, yes; don't think we'll see the Conservatives re-running their JFC advert any time soon.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,607
    Nigelb said:

    Byronic said:

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk. Johnson looks smiley and uncaring.

    Everyone else looks like thunder. From Barnier down.

    Hmm. This kinda supports the alternative narrative (also on Twitter) that something really really bad happened in the meeting, and it enraged the Europeans, and the Luxembourgers snapped and refused to move the presser, and then their PM went into his rant...
    Have you listened to it ?
    It was mildly undiplomatic, but a very long way from a rant.
    Radio Luxembourg?
  • Reading this take on Courtyardgate...
    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1173616177576366080?s=19

    It feels like a parable of a certain type of Brexit conversation...

    UK: We want something (leave the EU, move the presser)
    Europe: There are these practical problems.
    UK: But we want something. If we don't get it, we'll walk away.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Byronic said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?

    I would have thought a crowd booing at him would have played well to Leavers. He has certainly missed an opportunity.
    He has remarkable similarities with Trump. They both like adulation and cannot stand criticism.
    I've just listened to the Luxembourg PM's speech. It was hardly a baying mob, barely a crowd:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49714338/brexit-press-conference-goes-on-without-johnson

    Bit of a wimp, our PM.
    Not a baying mob??!!

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1173604433650958337?s=20
    We are talking about tiny Luxembourg, for God's sake. It has the population of a London borough.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Scott_P said:
    We are all repeating ourselves, tediously, but that does not reflect well on Les Luxembourgeois.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Apparently he was terrified of being hit by an errant croissant !

    Bozo the tough guy stomps off.
    "Brave Sir Boris ran away. Bravely ran away, away, he bravely ran away. O brave Sir Boris!"
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    nico67 said:

    It wasn’t the EU commission empty chairing the PM so the Leavers can cut the faux outrage .

    Jeez talk about snowflakes.

    They like to give it out but cannot take it themselves, as you say snowflakes. The big duffer turned over by little Luxembourg. What will it be like when he meets the big boys. More derision and humiliation, quite rightly EU has had enough of the UK and its pathetic politicians.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,607
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?

    I would have thought a crowd booing at him would have played well to Leavers. He has certainly missed an opportunity.
    He has remarkable similarities with Trump. They both like adulation and cannot stand criticism.
    I've just listened to the Luxembourg PM's speech. It was hardly a baying mob, barely a crowd:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49714338/brexit-press-conference-goes-on-without-johnson

    Bit of a wimp, our PM.
    Not a baying mob??!!

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1173604433650958337?s=20
    He looks just like Charles Lawton in the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Even the booing sounds like a good sound effect
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    TOPPING said:

    Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Working my way through Justified now. Enjoying it very much. On a par with The Shield. Very enjoyable, some wonderful characters, and a relief to have a police show away from the US coastline.
    Thanks will take a look!
    I am on 3rd or 4th series and it is getting a bit samey , hoping it picks back up as early stuff was great. They seem to be struggling.
  • You have to say that the Luxembourg hoo-ha is the classic Westminster bubble story. Will anyone even remember this time next week?

  • Yep - I see a Luxembourg PM seeing an opportunity to make political hay by attacking an immensely unpopular UK PM. These are not opportunities that the PM of Luxembourg usually gets. To be honest, I doubnt if Merkel is that concerned. A deal will not be scuppered by Luxembourg.

    Immensely unpopular?

    Views on handling of Johnson's handling of Brexit
    Approve 37/ Disapprove 43 Net -6

    I'm not sure what opposition party you currently intend voting for, but the comparative figures for responses of party leaders were:
    Corbyn 17/60 Net -43
    Swinson 21/33 Net -12

    Opinium 12th Sept 2019

    Why on earth would the Luxembourg PM care about Johnson's ratings in the UK?

  • Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041

    Reading this take on Courtyardgate...
    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1173616177576366080?s=19

    It feels like a parable of a certain type of Brexit conversation...

    UK: We want something (leave the EU, move the presser)
    Europe: There are these practical problems.
    UK: But we want something. If we don't get it, we'll walk away.

    Europe: You'll walk away?
    UK: OK - we might run, actually.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Ozark was good. I like Fargo as well , first one was best but others also good.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    Scott_P said:
    I swear it reminds me of something. A televised debate, could it have been?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    nico67 said:

    The UK doesn’t want to write any of its proposals down in case they leak .

    So it’s going to be done telepathically!


    Clearly a sign of just how rock solid they are.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited September 2019

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him and had their wives divorced, beheaded and the like
  • Forget an election, if there’s no extension or sign of a Deal I see it as almost a racing certainty that a VoNC will be carried in Boris Johnson on Monday 21st October (still under John Bercow at that point) and a GONU formed that very same week.

    Who leads that and forms part of the cabinet remains to be seen.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899

    Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    I for one just see a big cowardly buffoon slinking out the back door as the Tories do regularly when they have to meet the public and not bussed in drones.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,486

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him and had their wives divorced, beheaded and the like
    Maybe not so much like BoJo then :wink:
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,607

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Good observation. Richard 111 is possibly better than Quasimodo. When did he develop this stoop? It looks quite sinister
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Is there any evidence he has the ability to take on hecklers?

    When confronted by that lone heckler in Morley he seemed absolutely lost for words.

    No, maybe not. In fact, now I really think about it, although I do think he can be very effective in unstructured settings, I suppose that it IS usually clowning around with a supportive audience. And even then the likes of Jimmy Tarbuck are probably a touch better.
    I'm sure real stand-up comedians are made of sterner stuff.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    You have to say that the Luxembourg hoo-ha is the classic Westminster bubble story. Will anyone even remember this time next week?

    No we heard all the same outrage after Mays cake incident and nebulousgate !

    We’ll soon hear so called anecdotal evidence that Remainers are so outraged by this insult at our dear PM that they’ve run out and had Brexit Party tattoos done and will now be marching on Parliament .

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Ozark was good. I like Fargo as well , first one was best but others also good.
    I'm a big fan of Ozark, Jason Bateman is great in it an the character interplay is often fun without sacrifiying the drama. Mindhunters I found to be a bit underwhelming because the lead is so stupifyingly bland.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited September 2019

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him and had their wives divorced, beheaded and the like
    Maybe not so much like BoJo then :wink:
    I speak only in defence of the maligned Richard, not the Boris/Hulk creature(on this occasion)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,486
    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20
    Hi Sean!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Ozark was good. I like Fargo as well , first one was best but others also good.
    I'm a big fan of Ozark, Jason Bateman is great in it an the character interplay is often fun without sacrifiying the drama. Mindhunters I found to be a bit underwhelming because the lead is so stupifyingly bland.
    I agree Ozark is great , Mindhunter has lost its way a bit after an excellent first season . I recommend the Secret City if you like good political dramas , it’s set in Canberra .
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,486

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him and had their wives divorced, beheaded and the like
    Maybe not so much like BoJo then :wink:
    I speak only in defence of the maligned Richard, not the Boris/Hulk creature(on this occasion)
    Point taken :smile:
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    kle4 said:

    nico67 said:

    The UK doesn’t want to write any of its proposals down in case they leak .

    So it’s going to be done telepathically!


    Clearly a sign of just how rock solid they are.
    You obviously understand nothing of negotiation. Next time you're in a store and want to haggle, try the Conservative Party method: keep telling them over and over again that you want to buy an item marked "Not for Sale". When they say no, tell them that you have an alternative item in mind, but you're not going to tell them what it is.
  • Forget an election, if there’s no extension or sign of a Deal I see it as almost a racing certainty that a VoNC will be carried in Boris Johnson on Monday 21st October (still under John Bercow at that point) and a GONU formed that very same week.

    Who leads that and forms part of the cabinet remains to be seen.

    You think a GONU will want to own a No Deal Brexit? The EU may not offer an extension.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    Nigelb said:

    Byronic said:

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk. Johnson looks smiley and uncaring.

    Everyone else looks like thunder. From Barnier down.

    Hmm. This kinda supports the alternative narrative (also on Twitter) that something really really bad happened in the meeting, and it enraged the Europeans, and the Luxembourgers snapped and refused to move the presser, and then their PM went into his rant...
    Have you listened to it ?
    It was mildly undiplomatic, but a very long way from a rant.
    Nigel, these effete Tories are a bunch of jessie boys, their limit is speaking to people like HYFUD who are fanboys. Pathetic what UK has come to , sooner Scotland is out of this the better.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,486

    You have to say that the Luxembourg hoo-ha is the classic Westminster bubble story. Will anyone even remember this time next week?


    Remember what?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    OllyT said:

    Nigelb said:

    OllyT said:

    ab195 said:

    ab195 said:

    I won’t be the only person in this country whose reaction to those pictures is “f#ck ‘em”.

    The only question is whether there’s enough of us in the right places to return a Gvt at the next election. It’s 50/50 I reckon.

    Knock yourselves out. You could elect Godfrey Bloom Prime Minister for all the difference it would make to the reality of our choices.
    So I’m racist and sexist? You people really are the worst kind of pond scum and at some point in the next ten years I’ll get to watch you fail to get your own way for the first time in your posh lives. It’s going to be hilarious.
    Bloody hell talk about looking for reasons to be offended and go off on an unhinged rant.
    'Unhinged' ?
    Par for the course on PB.
    You think that was a rational response?
    It was a little intemperate, and probably best ignored.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,486

    Forget an election, if there’s no extension or sign of a Deal I see it as almost a racing certainty that a VoNC will be carried in Boris Johnson on Monday 21st October (still under John Bercow at that point) and a GONU formed that very same week.

    Who leads that and forms part of the cabinet remains to be seen.

    You think a GONU will want to own a No Deal Brexit? The EU may not offer an extension.....
    Then the GoNU would revoke on the basis that the next Government can re-invoke A50 if it has a mandate.
  • malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Ozark was good. I like Fargo as well , first one was best but others also good.
    Justified was great, but did run out of steam near the end. Deadwood is superb, as is The Shield and Sons of Anarchy. For quirky and dark humour, you can't go wrong with Tin Star-Tim Roth at the top of his game.
    Plato, bless her, was many things but she was an avid Box Setter and she put me onto some superb TV series.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,956

    You have no idea whether im right-wing or not. All i would say is that yours is the classic tactic of the left - play the man and not the ball...

    I assume your second sentence gives a clue... :)

  • Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Working my way through Justified now. Enjoying it very much. On a par with The Shield. Very enjoyable, some wonderful characters, and a relief to have a police show away from the US coastline.
    Thanks will take a look!
    I am on 3rd or 4th series and it is getting a bit samey, hoping it picks back up as early stuff was great. They seem to be struggling.
    The 4th season with the Crowes of Florida coming up to Kentucky is a good season. Agree S3 was weaker than the rest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,950
    edited September 2019

    Forget an election, if there’s no extension or sign of a Deal I see it as almost a racing certainty that a VoNC will be carried in Boris Johnson on Monday 21st October (still under John Bercow at that point) and a GONU formed that very same week.

    Who leads that and forms part of the cabinet remains to be seen.

    You think a GONU will want to own a No Deal Brexit? The EU may not offer an extension.....
    The EU will almost certainly do so, offering to convene an emergency European council meeting if necessary to grant one.

    A No Deal Brexit fucks everyone and Boris cannot game one with the current maths in the Commons, no matter how hard he tries.

    I guess the play for him is to play the victim at the subsequent GE, as his hands will still be clean.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    Byronic said:

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk. Johnson looks smiley and uncaring.

    Everyone else looks like thunder. From Barnier down.

    Hmm. This kinda supports the alternative narrative (also on Twitter) that something really really bad happened in the meeting, and it enraged the Europeans, and the Luxembourgers snapped and refused to move the presser, and then their PM went into his rant...
    Have you listened to it ?
    It was mildly undiplomatic, but a very long way from a rant.
    Nigel, these effete Tories are a bunch of jessie boys, their limit is speaking to people like HYFUD who are fanboys. Pathetic what UK has come to, sooner Scotland is out of this the better.
    I am no public speaker, but I doubt I'd have been intimidated by this crowd:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49714338/brexit-press-conference-goes-on-without-johnson

    Our PM is a wimp.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Scott_P said:
    They've moved, just not in the right direction.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    FFS.

    Look at these entitled prats. Screams and whistles and chants of "Fuck Off Boris"



    https://twitter.com/JacobEvansUK/status/1173624743389384707?s=20

    The idea you could have held a press conference in the midst of that - and broadcast it live on TV, is nuts.

    It's clear that the Luxers tried to set Boris up and he declined, so their PM did a ranty little speech, gesturing to the empty podium.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,873
    All of these current 'must watch' dramas being bandied around, I recognize hardly any of them from my TV menu screen. Are they all Netflix or something? Because if so they are no good to me. I don't have Netflix.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
    Nonsense, the princes in the tower were killed by Henry after he usurped the throne and they lost the protection of their uncle
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
    The history is somewhat contested.

    What is beyond doubt is that Henry Tudor was a pretty unpleasant piece of work, though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    FFS.

    Look at these entitled prats. Screams and whistles and chants of "Fuck Off Boris"



    https://twitter.com/JacobEvansUK/status/1173624743389384707?s=20

    The idea you could have held a press conference in the midst of that - and broadcast it live on TV, is nuts.

    It's clear that the Luxers tried to set Boris up and he declined, so their PM did a ranty little speech, gesturing to the empty podium.

    The press conference was not in the middle of that, as I've already pointed out.
    Though I guess it's possible they might not have shut up for Boris.
  • Byronic said:

    FFS.

    Look at these entitled prats. Screams and whistles and chants of "Fuck Off Boris"



    https://twitter.com/JacobEvansUK/status/1173624743389384707?s=20

    The idea you could have held a press conference in the midst of that - and broadcast it live on TV, is nuts.

    It's clear that the Luxers tried to set Boris up and he declined, so their PM did a ranty little speech, gesturing to the empty podium.

    BFC = Boris Fried Chicken
  • Forget an election, if there’s no extension or sign of a Deal I see it as almost a racing certainty that a VoNC will be carried in Boris Johnson on Monday 21st October (still under John Bercow at that point) and a GONU formed that very same week.

    Who leads that and forms part of the cabinet remains to be seen.

    You think a GONU will want to own a No Deal Brexit? The EU may not offer an extension.....
    Then the GoNU would revoke on the basis that the next Government can re-invoke A50 if it has a mandate.
    GONU? What about the 52%? More loaded and misleading Remainer language.

    GOFEPCU maybe (48%=FEPC). The P is silent to make pronounciation clearer.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,956
    I note with some sadness the reaction of PBLeavers to the snub to Boris Johnson. I have noted that the New Right display an adherence to free speech when it comes to them abusing others, no matter how gross, but who scream dramatically when abuse is directed at them, no matter how mild. As a counterweight, please find attached cases where Wilson, Callaghan and Major were heckled.

    h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4xX1FygKEE
    h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLg9MAbHds8
    h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv0-stddBto
  • malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Ozark was good. I like Fargo as well , first one was best but others also good.
    Justified was great, but did run out of steam near the end. Deadwood is superb, as is The Shield and Sons of Anarchy. For quirky and dark humour, you can't go wrong with Tin Star-Tim Roth at the top of his game.
    Plato, bless her, was many things but she was an avid Box Setter and she put me onto some superb TV series.
    If I may do a repeated advert for 'Person of Interest'. Technologically flawed in places, but with brilliant characterisations and plots. Root is one of my favourite TV characters - a highly intelligent and slightly insane woman who is essentially in love with an AI. I wish there was to be another series, but perhaps they ended it in the right place.

    Oh, and 'The Good Place' is truly excellent.
  • Pathetic remainer attempt at embarrassing the PM.

    I have no idea who the nonentity Lux PM is but he obviously saw a once in a lifetime opportunity for a bit of tv time.

    No Prime Minister should be seen out on the streets with a group of swivel-eyed head banging remainers led by some ridiculous politician nobody has heard of.



  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,486

    Forget an election, if there’s no extension or sign of a Deal I see it as almost a racing certainty that a VoNC will be carried in Boris Johnson on Monday 21st October (still under John Bercow at that point) and a GONU formed that very same week.

    Who leads that and forms part of the cabinet remains to be seen.

    You think a GONU will want to own a No Deal Brexit? The EU may not offer an extension.....
    Then the GoNU would revoke on the basis that the next Government can re-invoke A50 if it has a mandate.
    GONU? What about the 52%? More loaded and misleading Remainer language.

    GOFEPCU maybe (48%=FEPC). The P is silent to make pronounciation clearer.
    I was merely responding to @CarlottaVance's point - she called it a GONU, so I used the same acronym.

    I have no idea what FEPC is meant to stand for but no doubt it's something unpleasant.

    In any event, re Carlotta's point... I think it's inconceivable that the EU wouldn't offer an extension to a new government.
  • Nigelb said:

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
    The history is somewhat contested.

    What is beyond doubt is that Henry Tudor was a pretty unpleasant piece of work, though.
    He was a ruthless and merciless tyrant. But let’s not get distracted by whataboutism.

    Richard III’s record is also disgusting. The bit that hasn’t been proven is precisely what happened to the Princes in the Tower (and we’ll probably never know now - like the lunar landings it’s a favourite of conspiracy theorists) but he was still entrusted with their care, and put them there, and unable to explain himself what happened to them. And it was very convenient they did disappear.

    The summary executions he carried out as part of his manoeuvring to make himself King are a matter of historical record.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,029
    edited September 2019


    We are talking about tiny Luxembourg, for God's sake. It has the population of a London borough.

    If we decide to Revoke, could we foresee an elected European President one day? I suspect quite a few people in Britain would now be pleased to vote Bettel.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462


    We are talking about tiny Luxembourg, for God's sake. It has the population of a London borough.

    If we decide to Revoke, could we foresee an elected European President one day? I suspect quite a few people in Britain would now be pleased to vote Brettel.
    😂Elegant trolling
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,956

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    I've seen all of those but The Sopranos, and have no real desire to watch that, fine actor that Gandolfini was. And I'm afraid The Wire might now seem slightly dated to someone coming to it for the first time (& is it quite old enough to be 'period' ?).

    Considering the abundance now available, it's strange there's so little outside of US/UK output.
    There are at least three Korean dramas I'd put on there.

    People prefer drama in their own language what can I say?

    More recent? I thought The Night Of was very good, didn't like so much Mr Robot, Ozark I'm in the middle of and so far so good, while Manhunt:Unabomber was fantastic (but retro!) and have just started Mindhunter in the same vein.

    As far as documentaries go, Flint Town was excellent about the Flint police department and, Flint-based also, T-Rex about Claressa Shields was very good.
    Ozark was good. I like Fargo as well , first one was best but others also good.
    Justified was great, but did run out of steam near the end. Deadwood is superb, as is The Shield and Sons of Anarchy. For quirky and dark humour, you can't go wrong with Tin Star-Tim Roth at the top of his game.
    Plato, bless her, was many things but she was an avid Box Setter and she put me onto some superb TV series.
    If I may do a repeated advert for 'Person of Interest'. Technologically flawed in places, but with brilliant characterisations and plots. Root is one of my favourite TV characters - a highly intelligent and slightly insane woman who is essentially in love with an AI. I wish there was to be another series, but perhaps they ended it in the right place.

    Oh, and 'The Good Place' is truly excellent.
    I've never seen Person of Interest, tho' all the clips I've seen have been good. The list of exceptions in the comments are better than I could do: I was thinking of posting a list of my own but it would go on for too long... :(
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Pathetic remainer attempt at embarrassing the PM.

    I have no idea who the nonentity Lux PM is but he obviously saw a once in a lifetime opportunity for a bit of tv time.

    No Prime Minister should be seen out on the streets with a group of swivel-eyed head banging remainers led by some ridiculous politician nobody has heard of.



    Bozo flunked off because he couldn’t cope with a small protest and would be asked some uncomfortable questions . If Corbyn had done this I’m sure the right wing press would have had a field day .
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462

    No doubt Laura K will just parrot No 10’s line, rather than get off her arse to find out whether there is a single shred of truth in it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,956

    ...No Prime Minister should be seen out on the streets with a group of swivel-eyed head banging remainers led by some ridiculous politician nobody has heard of.

    You're right. The PM should only ever talk to people you like and approve of. That'll work... :)

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502


    We are talking about tiny Luxembourg, for God's sake. It has the population of a London borough.

    If we decide to Revoke, could we foresee an elected European President one day? I suspect quite a few people in Britain would now be pleased to vote Bettel.
    He said what many are thinking re Brexit . Donald Tusk would get my vote though .
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Anyone know where I can download past GE results by constituency going back to the 70s (or further), in an easily analysable format (e.g. csv)?

    You can get constituency results on Excel file from the report on each GE produced by the House of Commons library. You can if you need to merge the files from different years (which is doable as there is a common ons constituency id included in the file.) I am not sure how far back you can go though, and boundary changes will mess up comparisons across years.
    Sorry, could you point out where? https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP10-36 is what's showing up for 2010, and there's no excel file. Or am I looking in the wrong place?
  • Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
    Nonsense, the princes in the tower were killed by Henry after he usurped the throne and they lost the protection of their uncle
    No, Henry Tudor took the throne because Richard III’s opponents knew the princes in the tower were almost certainly dead. His hold on the throne was tenuous and there had already been one attempt to rescue them. Most historians agree they were killed at some point between September 1483 and July 1484, well before the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485. Richard made no attempt to disprove the rumours in circulation by parading them to show they were still alive. He also failed to open any investigation whatsoever into their murder.

    If they hadn’t been killed, there wouldn’t have been support for Henry Tudor to take the throne in the first place.
  • I have no idea who the nonentity Lux PM is but he obviously saw a once in a lifetime opportunity for a bit of tv time.

    They do have TV in other countries, you know.
  • New Thread

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,715

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
    Nonsense, the princes in the tower were killed by Henry after he usurped the throne and they lost the protection of their uncle
    Anyone who thinks they can settle this to everyone's satisfaction will be in for a long wait. Perhaps they could have a go at Goldbach's conjecture if they want something quicker. Or read Josephine Tey's 'The Daughter of Time', one of best detective stores ever, about the Princes in the Tower, Richard III and Henry Tudor. All easier than getting agreement on Brexit.

  • And, since I'm now likely to be voting LibDem, perhaps Ms Swinson might care to listen to some friendly advice from me? For God's sake drop this 'I am a potential PM' line. It simply comes over as deluded, arrogant, and self-important.

    If you have to tell people you are...
  • Scott_P said:
    Why would the fact that they come from a small country make any difference?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Luxembourg suffers from the political equivalent of small dog syndrome.

    That said, there’s starting to be an air of Richard III about Boris Johnson.

    Richard 3rd, a popular king who was affable and loved his wife dearly as opposed to the Tudor scum that followed and rewrote history to demonise him
    He was a paranoid weirdo, and a murderer.

    He executed his sister-in-laws family, put the rightful heirs in the Tower for their ‘safekeeping’ (from whence they promptly disappeared) conspired to make his brothers marriage illegitimate so he could be proclaimed as King, and tried to shag his niece.

    He rightly met a sticky end.
    Nonsense, the princes in the tower were killed by Henry after he usurped the throne and they lost the protection of their uncle
    No, Henry Tudor took the throne because Richard III’s opponents knew the princes in the tower were almost certainly dead. His hold on the throne was tenuous and there had already been one attempt to rescue them. Most historians agree they were killed at some point between September 1483 and July 1484, well before the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485. Richard made no attempt to disprove the rumours in circulation by parading them to show they were still alive. He also failed to open any investigation whatsoever into their murder.

    If they hadn’t been killed, there wouldn’t have been support for Henry Tudor to take the throne in the first place.
    Henry Tudor took the throne because he usurped it by victory in battle, period. The War of the Roses had been raging for 30 years. There is no clear idea on what happened to the princes nor who killed them if they were killed. Just histories and suspicions written after the fact by the victors. What is known is Richard's legal reforms etc which were very much in favour of the commoners and indeed the city of York expressed outrage at his murder by Henry Tudor risking retribution.
This discussion has been closed.