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  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    If the tory election strategy is to win former mining towns in the north, how on earth do they expect to campaign in those towns if they cant handle 40 people shouting?

    It was a press conference between two heads of state, not a campaign event.
    Boris isn't a Queen :lol:
    Point. But you knows what I meant, bruv.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    Good point.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,239
    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462
    TGOHF said:
    LOL. Boris' third-rate spin doctress on standard service.
  • The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    I would imagine it is a clear counter to the over optimistic Tory weekend spin that a deal was now close.
  • The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    I would imagine it is a clear counter to the over optimistic Tory weekend spin that a deal was now close.
    Either way it is an act of supreme foolishness.
  • nico67 said:

    If you like Bozo you’ll think he was hard done by , if you don’t like him then you’ll think he got what he deserved .

    "My friends, as I have discovered today, there are never disasters, only opportunities. And, indeed, opportunities for fresh disasters!"
    - Boris, 2004.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    This is just another example of Britain’s stock in the world falling through the floor. They have no respect for us and why would they? We are a laughing stock.

    Even tiny Luxembourg can tell a British PM to F.O. Remember he has a veto.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462
    How will No Deal Brexit affect pearl stocks? All this clutching is getting me worried.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Can’t cope with a few protesters .

    If he would have come out and the noise continued then fair enough leave .
  • eekeek Posts: 22,036
    edited September 2019

    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.

    If we are playing the where are we game - Greetings from Sandy Lane
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    TGOHF said:
    LOL. Boris' third-rate spin doctress on standard service.
    You are Mr Trump with your cries of fake news' and 'Bozo'. I'd like to claim my £10 please!
  • Remain shrills on here egging on the Luxembourg PM are merely showing just how far from mainstream public opinion they have drifted.

    Clue : PB is not "mainstream public opinion"

  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    This is just another example of Britain’s stock in the world falling through the floor. They have no respect for us and why would they? We are a laughing stock.

    Just another example of the EU's stock in the world falling through the floor. Trust me, I work with non-EU folk all the time and they can't see why we've put up with this shit for so long.

    Looking forward to 31st October.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    eek said:

    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.

    If we are playing the where are we game - Greetings from Sandy Lane
    Greetings from my kitchen where I am cooking some jacket potatoes.
  • Just because the PM's a damned fool doesn't mean the Luxembourg press conference was anything other than boorish.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,972
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.
    Shoulda, woulda, coulda...you know I'm right. You may not have the imagination to work out the best course of action for a PM in such a situation, but he has people for that sort of thing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684

    This is just another example of Britain’s stock in the world falling through the floor. They have no respect for us and why would they? We are a laughing stock.

    Just another example of the EU's stock in the world falling through the floor. Trust me, I work with non-EU folk all the time and they can't see why we've put up with this shit for so long.

    Looking forward to 31st October.
    What’s happening on the 31st October like?
  • Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    In his glory days, Boris would have ambled over, and charmed the protesters in French. Blair would have done the same. It might not have worked, but they'd have been sure enough of himself to try it.

    Leave aside the rights and wrongs of the location. This isn't glad confident Boris any more.
  • Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Lets see how Luxembourg play it after Bettel has a pissed up Juncker on the phone yelling at him
  • Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    It will, but in terms of a different emotion. Not sympathy for Johnson. Anger, at the EU's deliberate attempt to humiliate the UK PM. The very opposite of the warm, fuzzy feelings of empathy they want us to feel for their project of political union.
  • Brom said:

    TGOHF said:
    LOL. Boris' third-rate spin doctress on standard service.
    You are Mr Trump with your cries of fake news' and 'Bozo'. I'd like to claim my £10 please!
    Trump is Boris's biggest USA fanboy!
  • Remain shrills on here egging on the Luxembourg PM are merely showing just how far from mainstream public opinion they have drifted.

    Clue : PB is not "mainstream public opinion"

    Will public opinion solve the Irish border? Not unless it comes in the form of a shift towards Irish unity.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462
    The Incredible Sulk should have stood up and done the presser.

    If the racket was so much he couldn't converse with the press of Lux PM then fair enough, end it there and then.

    Not showing up is just pathetic.

  • Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    It will, but in terms of a different emotion. Not sympathy for Johnson. Anger, at the EU's deliberate attempt to humiliate the UK PM. The very opposite of the warm, fuzzy feelings of empathy they want us to feel for their project of political union.
    That is the feeling of leavers and no dealers! It will strengthen that view yes.

    Anti no dealers and remainers wont care.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,028

    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.

    Does much trace of Breslau remain?

  • Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Boris is the graceless idiot!

    Have the Luxembourgers ever prorogued their Parliament (except for German occupation, natch)?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684

    Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Classic right-wing willy waving. So what if they are a small country? Does that make them less worthy?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,697
    edited September 2019
    Off topic, but if anyone needs the information for negotiating...

    I cancelled Virgin subscription yesterday as the price kept on ramping up, and that annoys me.

    Today they came back and offered internet for £17.00 pcm (it was an offer of £30 on Sunday)

    Don't settle for more than £17.00 from Virgin!

    I told them I would let as many people as possible know how cheap they are willing to be, so feel free to let the world know.

    Although I think this is near to the base line for Virgin, I refused the offer as I really don't like them.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 677
    Good heavens, a little bit of booing and jeering. This is what politics is made of and real politicians, not incredible hulks, gain their spurs. It is not in press conferences. Harold Wilson, Harold McMillan used to handle it wonderfully well, jokes, comments and facts, and what is more the hecklers did not get ejected,
  • Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    Leaving aside that that is a highly partisan reading of what he actually wrote, there is the other small detail that at the time he was a journalist. Whereas Bettel is a PM (albeit of small, insignificant european principality best know for tax avoidance).
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Boris is the graceless idiot!

    Have the Luxembourgers ever prorogued their Parliament (except for German occupation, natch)?
    I swear someone has taken over your account recently!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462

    Kevin Maguire

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    Incredible Hulk to Incredible Sulk: Boris Johnson's problems is people are now laughing at him, and no longer with him, when he's too scared to go to his own press conference and does a runner
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,972
    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
    Why does Merkel want a deal so badly?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    The public may feel sympathy for Boris. That’s fine. But is that really what he wants?

    Which great leaders have been elected on a sympathy vote?
  • Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Boris is the graceless idiot!

    Have the Luxembourgers ever prorogued their Parliament (except for German occupation, natch)?
    I dont know. And nor, i suspect , do you.
  • Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Boris is the graceless idiot!

    Have the Luxembourgers ever prorogued their Parliament (except for German occupation, natch)?
    I swear someone has taken over your account recently!
    SeanT/Byronic I think. I'm posting from my squillion pound flat in Primrose Hill (Borders) sat next to my pretty 20-something Corbynista wife! :lol:
  • Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    Leaving aside that that is a highly partisan reading of what he actually wrote, there is the other small detail that at the time he was a journalist. Whereas Bettel is a PM (albeit of small, insignificant european principality best know for tax avoidance).

    Johnson was foreign secretary in 2017:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-french-president-francois-hollande-nazi-brexit-eu-a7532981.html
  • timpletimple Posts: 99
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Less discussed is the impact this will have on parties on the other side of the debate. Perhaps there was little doubt that the Lib Dems just want to cancel Brexit, but now they are openly advocating it.

    You'd imagine that would energise the other side. Would that be the Brexit party or the Tories?

    The policy is certainly dogmatic.
    The Brexit Party will use it to say , The Lib Dems do not respect the referendum result.
    They are correct.
    If they got into government with a majority and had to implement it.
    It would be a clusterfuck.
    If Corbyn had announced this ,the outcry would have been huge.
    The LD policy is aimed at inner and Southwest London, Oxford and Cambridge, Scotland, the posher parts of the Home Counties like St Albans, Guildford and Lewes ie diehard Remainerville. Areas which voted Remain and may have voted LD in the European Parliament elections too.

    It will go down like a lead balloon in the largely Leave voting former LD heartlands of the South West bar a few areas like Cheltenham and Bath but the LDs seem to be willing to make that sacrifice and it will also go down badly in the Leave voting North and Midlands but the LDs are weak there anyway.

    We all know the voting system we have rewards parties who can concentrate their vote and brutally punishes those which cannot (there is a reason why Farage wants to change it).
    Anyone who doesn't like what the LDs are doing needs to support voting reform to a more proportional system.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
    It doesn't look particularly EU-strategic - I think the simple human explanation works on both sides. Johnson bottled it because he's sensitive about being booed all the time, it was last minute so relocating was impractical, Bettel was annoyed and showed it by going ahead in a way that would be embarrassing.

    That said, a deal remains impossible until the UK brings forward something coherent that it wants, and if that ever happens little details like this event won't make it any harder to conclude.
  • Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Classic right-wing willy waving. So what if they are a small country? Does that make them less worthy?
    You have no idea whether im right-wing or not. All i would say is that yours is the classic tactic of the left - play the man and not the ball.

    Does it matter that Luxembourg is a small, insignificant country? Yes, it probably does. But it certainly means we dont need to take much notice of them. Except to remark on the idiocy and lack of manners of their PM. Perhaps its something to do with the size of their gene pool...
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    Hardly a 'tearing into' is it?
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:


    It's not the fault of the electorate that we are governed by cowards, morons and hypocrites. who refuse to pass an EU deal, even when it is offered, three times. it is not the fault of the electorate that MPs are voting down a Deal because half of them secretly want to Remain, and another chunk are fetishising the worst deal possible.

    It is not the fault of the voters that parliament is not fit-for-purpose. So we must get rid of it, and start again, with an election.

    Perhaps instead of solely blaming remainers, you can throw some of your righteous ire at the ERGers, Farage and the Brexit Party, who also did a good amount of work to kill May's deal.

    But that probably cuts a little close to home ... ;)
    Er, I did. Read it again.

    "another chunk are fetishising the worst deal possible"
    Yep, sorry.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    More like the Invisible Girl's Blouse?
  • timple said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Less discussed is the impact this will have on parties on the other side of the debate. Perhaps there was little doubt that the Lib Dems just want to cancel Brexit, but now they are openly advocating it.

    You'd imagine that would energise the other side. Would that be the Brexit party or the Tories?

    The policy is certainly dogmatic.
    The Brexit Party will use it to say , The Lib Dems do not respect the referendum result.
    They are correct.
    If they got into government with a majority and had to implement it.
    It would be a clusterfuck.
    If Corbyn had announced this ,the outcry would have been huge.
    The LD policy is aimed at inner and Southwest London, Oxford and Cambridge, Scotland, the posher parts of the Home Counties like St Albans, Guildford and Lewes ie diehard Remainerville. Areas which voted Remain and may have voted LD in the European Parliament elections too.

    It will go down like a lead balloon in the largely Leave voting former LD heartlands of the South West bar a few areas like Cheltenham and Bath but the LDs seem to be willing to make that sacrifice and it will also go down badly in the Leave voting North and Midlands but the LDs are weak there anyway.

    We all know the voting system we have rewards parties who can concentrate their vote and brutally punishes those which cannot (there is a reason why Farage wants to change it).
    Anyone who doesn't like what the LDs are doing needs to support voting reform to a more proportional system.
    And shock horror that the LDs aren't playing their allotted stereotype of naive sandal wearing beardys!!!
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,490

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    Tabman said:

    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.

    Does much trace of Breslau remain?

    Bernard Breslau?
  • Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.

    I presume Bettel was acting in what he decided were his best political interests, just as Johnson did when he compared the EU to Nazis. He clearly believed not giving Johnson what he wanted will play well for him among his electorate. If other EU leaders feel the same, then it’s No Deal.

  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Anyone know where I can download past GE results by constituency going back to the 70s (or further), in an easily analysable format (e.g. csv)?
  • A Luxembourgeois friend writes: "knowing the ministry's building, civil servants and employees, I'd say the LU explanation is absolutely plausible: no room, no one wants to do the work to change things".
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    Surely he should just have placed a tub of lard on the podium?
  • eekeek Posts: 22,036

    The Incredible Sulk should have stood up and done the presser.

    If the racket was so much he couldn't converse with the press of Lux PM then fair enough, end it there and then.

    Not showing up is just pathetic.

    Yep the same option would have been to turn up - quietly disable the microphone and when no one heard the first answer shrug apologize and walk away.
  • Tabman said:

    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.

    Does much trace of Breslau remain?

    Microcosm by Norman Davies is a great book about that much-renamed city.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844

    Anyone know where I can download past GE results by constituency going back to the 70s (or further), in an easily analysable format (e.g. csv)?

    Not sure - you'll quickly gain a hatred for constituencies with more than one possible name though, particularly stuff like "Aberdeen West & Kincardine" will be listed under "West Aberdeen and Kincardine" in some databases.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568
    edited September 2019


    Kevin Maguire

    Verified account

    @Kevin_Maguire
    Follow Follow @Kevin_Maguire
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    Incredible Hulk to Incredible Sulk: Boris Johnson's problems is people are now laughing at him, and no longer with him, when he's too scared to go to his own press conference and does a runner

    No all that will happen is...

    Remainers will think: Go Luxenbourg! Be as insulting as you can be to the UK. We deserve it.

    Leavers will think: How rude. If they are going to insult our country like this we're better off out.

    And then we'll all go back to yelling at each other. :D
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    A Luxembourgeois friend writes: "knowing the ministry's building, civil servants and employees, I'd say the LU explanation is absolutely plausible: no room, no one wants to do the work to change things".

    Small country*, small buildings.

    *or Duchy or whatever it is.
  • felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.

    I can quite easily imagine a very political PM seeking a confrontation with a foreign political leader for domestic gain.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,697
    felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.
    Think Trump. We arrange it so that he is sheltered from the most egregious displays of disrespect to the position of President of USA.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited September 2019

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.

    I presume Bettel was acting in what he decided were his best political interests, just as Johnson did when he compared the EU to Nazis. He clearly believed not giving Johnson what he wanted will play well for him among his electorate. If other EU leaders feel the same, then it’s No Deal.

    You might be half right. There's an interesting theory floating around Twitter (amongst some well-informed opinion) that Brexit, of any kind, is good for Luxembourg, and that Revoke/Remain would be terrible for them (presumably based on a fair chunk of City biz drifting to Lux)

    Bettel is the PM of a tiny, insignificant country. His opportunities to direct Brexit in a way that betters his nation are meagre. But this was one rare moment where he could do it.

    Set up a press conference close to expected protestors. Humiliate the British PM. Make a no deal Brexit slightly more likely. Look good in front of Luxembourg voters?

    Job done. But I doubt Merkel feels the same.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684

    Brom said:

    Boris Johnson’s problem is that respect is earned not bestowed. And he hasn’t earned it.

    That would be true if he were not Prime Minister
    In most anti no dealers eyes, any respect he gained from becoming PM has already been spent.

    Unlike with May, sympathy for this wont cut across the political divide. After all it comes just after he compares himself to the Incredibile Hulk, and now he runs off in a sulk.
    You are so wrong!

    When this plays in the news all that people will see is the graceless and idiotic premier of a small country behaving as one would expect him to.
    Classic right-wing willy waving. So what if they are a small country? Does that make them less worthy?
    You have no idea whether im right-wing or not. All i would say is that yours is the classic tactic of the left - play the man and not the ball.

    Does it matter that Luxembourg is a small, insignificant country? Yes, it probably does. But it certainly means we dont need to take much notice of them. Except to remark on the idiocy and lack of manners of their PM. Perhaps its something to do with the size of their gene pool...
    How offensive.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638


    Kevin Maguire

    Verified account

    @Kevin_Maguire
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    Incredible Hulk to Incredible Sulk: Boris Johnson's problems is people are now laughing at him, and no longer with him, when he's too scared to go to his own press conference and does a runner

    When a Tory PM loses the Daily Mirror, it really is serious
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone know where I can download past GE results by constituency going back to the 70s (or further), in an easily analysable format (e.g. csv)?

    Not sure - you'll quickly gain a hatred for constituencies with more than one possible name though, particularly stuff like "Aberdeen West & Kincardine" will be listed under "West Aberdeen and Kincardine" in some databases.
    Yeah I'm expecting to have to do quite a bit of cleaning.

    The alternative is to try to scrape wikipedia, but I'd rather not.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    Regardless, it’s good to see all the snowflakes are throwing a tantrum and resorting to childish insults about Luxembourg.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
    Why does Merkel want a deal so badly?
    Because Germany is close to recession, you swithering nitwit.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
    Why does Merkel want a deal so badly?
    Because Germany is close to recession, you swithering nitwit.
    They need us more than we need them am I right?
  • felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.
    I cannot imagine any foreign PM acting in that way to any previous British PM. The British PM used to be a respected figure in the world, now he is openly laughed at and treated with contempt. Which in Johnson's case is fully deserved.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,490

    felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.

    I can quite easily imagine a very political PM seeking a confrontation with a foreign political leader for domestic gain.

    While they are guests in your country - not in the UK and not in most civilised countries.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,607


    Kevin Maguire

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    Incredible Hulk to Incredible Sulk: Boris Johnson's problems is people are now laughing at him, and no longer with him, when he's too scared to go to his own press conference and does a runner

    ...and that's just his family
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.

    I can quite easily imagine a very political PM seeking a confrontation with a foreign political leader for domestic gain.

    While they are guests in your country - not in the UK and not in most civilised countries.

    Absolutely I can.

  • You have no idea whether im right-wing or not. All i would say is that yours is the classic tactic of the left

    This is... quite special.
  • Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
    Why does Merkel want a deal so badly?
    Because Germany is close to recession, you swithering nitwit.
    Johnson is bluffing on No Deal, and even if he isn’t, it just gives everyone else a scapegoat.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


  • London also increased its share of trading euro-denominated interest rate swaps, accounting for 86 per cent of all deals, up from 75 per cent in 2016, the BIS said. The issue has become a flashpoint after the Brexit vote, with the EU demanding more direct oversight of the business. EU regulators have granted their investors and banks temporary access to the UK’s markets if there is a no-deal Brexit, but the permit is due to lapse in March next year.

    “Without greater clarity . . . after this date, the contracts that EU members clear with UK clearing houses will need to be closed out or transferred by then,” said Mr Bailey on Monday. “This process would need to begin by the end of this year, and would impose significant costs on EU firms as well as potentially straining market capacity.”


    https://amp.ft.com/content/c653e9f0-d883-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17?__twitter_impression=true
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,121
    philiph said:

    Off topic, but if anyone needs the information for negotiating...

    I cancelled Virgin subscription yesterday as the price kept on ramping up, and that annoys me.

    Today they came back and offered internet for £17.00 pcm (it was an offer of £30 on Sunday)

    Don't settle for more than £17.00 from Virgin!

    I told them I would let as many people as possible know how cheap they are willing to be, so feel free to let the world know.

    Although I think this is near to the base line for Virgin, I refused the offer as I really don't like them.

    Similar experience.

    Told them I was planning to move unless they could offer a decent deal. Nope.

    Left.

    Couple of days later came back with a decent offer.

    Nope - too late beardie. Not going through two processes.

    How to lose customers.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    I see the LibDem's "chop up Boris" candidate has been, er, chopped. Next up, the North Devon numpty....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,674
    eek said:

    Hello from Wroclaw Airport.

    If we are playing the where are we game - Greetings from Sandy Lane
    Worksop?

    They have gone bust again havent they?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,873
    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,490

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:
    Tbf I think Boris did the sensible thing there, a press conference in those circumstances would have been stupid. I don't think Bettle's behaved very well, and as most of you know I am in no way a supporter of Johnson.

    He (Boris) will get a PR boost from this (which is why Bettel was so silly to do it) BUT...

    ...any Boris boost will be short-lived. Remember May receiving sympathy for being badly treated at an EU conference - how long did that sympathy last?
    He should have gone out, a la Alex Chalk the other day, said look if you don't let me speak there's no point in me being here, politely answered some questions which would be drowned out, then turned to Bettel while shrugging his shoulders, mouthed "sorry" to the press, and walked off.

    Is what he *should* have done.
    Except then the likes of you would have accused him, even more vehemently, of being a coward, the incontinent sulk, the big girl's blouse who couldn't conclude a press conference, the optics for him would have been even worse. A Prime Minister walking off a podium, like some teen in a tantrum?

    The correct thing here was for the EU bigwigs to see that Boris was right, it was too noisy for a presser, and go indoors. How hard would that have been?

    Instead they overreached, in their desire to humiliate the British PM. Foolish, foolish, foolish.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1173604846764793857?s=20

    Why is it foolish? The PM of Luxembourg wants to win votes in Luxembourg not in the UK. When Johnson compared the EU to the Nazis he was after votes in the UK, not in Germany!

    I cannot imagine any British Head of State or PM acting that way to a guest in our country - not even for votes.

    I can quite easily imagine a very political PM seeking a confrontation with a foreign political leader for domestic gain.

    While they are guests in your country - not in the UK and not in most civilised countries.

    Absolutely I can.

    Ok.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.

    I presume Bettel was acting in what he decided were his best political interests, just as Johnson did when he compared the EU to Nazis. He clearly believed not giving Johnson what he wanted will play well for him among his electorate. If other EU leaders feel the same, then it’s No Deal.

    You might be half right. There's an interesting theory floating around Twitter (amongst some well-informed opinion) that Brexit, of any kind, is good for Luxembourg, and that Revoke/Remain would be terrible for them (presumably based on a fair chunk of City biz drifting to Lux)

    Bettel is the PM of a tiny, insignificant country. His opportunities to direct Brexit in a way that betters his nation are meagre. But this was one rare moment where he could do it.

    Set up a press conference close to expected protestors. Humiliate the British PM. Make a no deal Brexit slightly more likely. Look good in front of Luxembourg voters?

    Job done. But I doubt Merkel feels the same.

    Yep - I see a Luxembourg PM seeing an opportunity to make political hay by attacking an immensely unpopular UK PM. These are not opportunities that the PM of Luxembourg usually gets. To be honest, I doubnt if Merkel is that concerned. A deal will not be scuppered by Luxembourg.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,607
    Katya Adler thinks Johnson is just pissing about and that's good enough for me.
  • Anyone know where I can download past GE results by constituency going back to the 70s (or further), in an easily analysable format (e.g. csv)?

    You can get constituency results on Excel file from the report on each GE produced by the House of Commons library. You can if you need to merge the files from different years (which is doable as there is a common ons constituency id included in the file.) I am not sure how far back you can go though, and boundary changes will mess up comparisons across years.
  • Nah, I did that route in summer 2018, and I went all the way up to Sunderland :)
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    kinabalu said:

    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?

    Is there any evidence he has the ability to take on hecklers?

    When confronted by that lone heckler in Morley he seemed absolutely lost for words.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,527
    edited September 2019
    is there anyone, at all, on either side, who has changed their view about Johnson/Brexit/EU based on this afternoon's events in Luxembourg?

    Feels like this has turned into a really dull thread with everyone just ramping their side and no-one is persuading anyone.

    Am I missing anything? Are we so entrenched we can't see events outside our partisan blinkers?
  • Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.
    Why does Merkel want a deal so badly?
    Because Germany is close to recession, you swithering nitwit.
    Johnson is bluffing on No Deal, and even if he isn’t, it just gives everyone else a scapegoat.

    I really don't think he is bluffing. The problem is that he has no plan for what happens when No Deal arrives.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    The serious point about the Luxembourg brouhaha is that the PM of Luxembourg - like the other EU leaders - has no interest in UK public opinion. What matters to him is opinion in Luxembourg. He clearly believes what happened today will work well for him. If he is representative of other EU leader’s Johnson’s chances of getting a deal are close to zero.

    You presume Bettel was acting rationally, and also acting in concert with wider EU opinion. None of this is known. It is very possible that Bettel tipped into a fit of anger (he is quite emotional in his presser) - perhaps because his stunt failed, perhaps because Boris was annoying.

    It is equally possible, in fact probable, that other EU leaders like Merkel, who really really want a deal, are spitting tacks at Bettel for this childish pantomime, which makes a deal that bit harder.

    I presume Bettel was acting in what he decided were his best political interests, just as Johnson did when he compared the EU to Nazis. He clearly believed not giving Johnson what he wanted will play well for him among his electorate. If other EU leaders feel the same, then it’s No Deal.

    You might be half right. There's an interesting theory floating around Twitter (amongst some well-informed opinion) that Brexit, of any kind, is good for Luxembourg, and that Revoke/Remain would be terrible for them (presumably based on a fair chunk of City biz drifting to Lux)

    Bettel is the PM of a tiny, insignificant country. His opportunities to direct Brexit in a way that betters his nation are meagre. But this was one rare moment where he could do it.

    Set up a press conference close to expected protestors. Humiliate the British PM. Make a no deal Brexit slightly more likely. Look good in front of Luxembourg voters?

    Job done. But I doubt Merkel feels the same.

    Yep - I see a Luxembourg PM seeing an opportunity to make political hay by attacking an immensely unpopular UK PM. These are not opportunities that the PM of Luxembourg usually gets. To be honest, I doubnt if Merkel is that concerned. A deal will not be scuppered by Luxembourg.

    What I don't understand is why the PM of Luxembourg should feel the need to court popularity in the UK, though.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    That's a very intriguing photo. Juncker looks photoshopped, and drunk. Johnson looks smiley and uncaring.

    Everyone else looks like thunder. From Barnier down.

    Hmm. This kinda supports the alternative narrative (also on Twitter) that something really really bad happened in the meeting, and it enraged the Europeans, and the Luxembourgers snapped and refused to move the presser, and then their PM went into his rant.

    Wha might Boris have said or done? That he really is going for No Deal, and he knows how to do it? Did he grab Madame Barnier's cleavage?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,792
    ab195 said:

    ab195 said:

    I won’t be the only person in this country whose reaction to those pictures is “f#ck ‘em”.

    The only question is whether there’s enough of us in the right places to return a Gvt at the next election. It’s 50/50 I reckon.

    Knock yourselves out. You could elect Godfrey Bloom Prime Minister for all the difference it would make to the reality of our choices.
    So I’m racist and sexist? You people really are the worst kind of pond scum and at some point in the next ten years I’ll get to watch you fail to get your own way for the first time in your posh lives. It’s going to be hilarious.
    Bloody hell talk about looking for reasons to be offended and go off on an unhinged rant.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The UK doesn’t want to write any of its proposals down in case they leak .

    So it’s going to be done telepathically!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462

    The most visited English speaking news website not doing Boris any favours.


    When a Tory PM loses the Daily Mail it really is serious.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    kinabalu said:

    I'm a little disappointed in Boris's lack of gumption over there in Lux. I don't like him and I don't rate him but one thing I've always thought he had - certainly more so than your average politician- was the ability to 'mix it' on the street with the great unwashed. This can be very effective, regardless of whether you are given a hard time or not. In fact some heckling can work for you. Remember Major and his soapbox in 92? It certainly worked for him. Well, here was a great opportunity for Boris to do something like that. He could have really took on those protesters, given them a mouthful, and while he was at it roasted the Lux PM too. But he flunked it. So it does beg the question - given his reluctance to do one of the few things he can do - what is the point of Boris?

    I would have thought a crowd booing at him would have played well to Leavers. He has certainly missed an opportunity.
    He has remarkable similarities with Trump. They both like adulation and cannot stand criticism.
This discussion has been closed.