Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Swinson’s great LD gamble – making cancelling Brexit party pol

124678

Comments

  • TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You are missing out. Get some of the higher rated series and enjoy yourself*.

    *the Good Wife is excellent, sounds like someone in your household has a good appreciation of dramatic art.
    The Good Wife is fine. Nothing amazing. The Killing was exceptional. If all TV were like that, I’d be watching it nonstop.

    I don’t have the time to invest in television series with all my other commitments and interests. Something has to give.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,972
    Byronic said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You've missed out on probably the greatest cultural efflorescence in modern times: the Golden Age of TV Drama.

    You're like some Italian saying, in 1600, "Well I've not seen much of this new Renaissance stuff, but I don't feel like I've missed out".
    Indeed.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/16/rnli-donations-surge-tory-criticism-work-overseas-lifeboat-charity

    To follow up the discussion the other day.

    The Daily Mail comments are quite an eye-opener, about 10:1 against the RNLI for helping foreign little girls, and even attacking the RNLI for its Irish activities.

    I felt obliged to chip in with a donation. I think the RNLI is a wonderful organisation, and the frothing fuckwits in the DM comment section can just do one.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    On to the burning issue of the day: the top 100 tv shows of this century (so far).
    A sad omission is House of Cards, which easily had the quality to be in there, but has probably been omitted for reasons of supposed taste.
    It's a thorny issue when a work of genius becomes inextricably linked with the alleged behaviour of one of its principle architects. I can see why some people would want to quietly drop if from their consciousness, but it doesn't change my view that HoC was a superb program with one of the most delicious antiheroes the small screen has ever produced.

    (Of course, it's a remake, but since the original was last century, we needn't argue about whether the remake fell short of or exceeded the original).
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041

    Chris said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    So, we're prepared for No Deal, are we?

    I dont know. Better than we were Less than we should have been had we not had the wretched Hammond vetoing preparations.

    But no deal will be considerably less disruptive than the doomster pretend , in my view.
    Are you prepared to go to the back of the queues if you're wrong?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,699
    Anorak said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/16/rnli-donations-surge-tory-criticism-work-overseas-lifeboat-charity

    To follow up the discussion the other day.

    The Daily Mail comments are quite an eye-opener, about 10:1 against the RNLI for helping foreign little girls, and even attacking the RNLI for its Irish activities.

    I felt obliged to chip in with a donation. I think the RNLI is a wonderful organisation, and the frothing fuckwits in the DM comment section can just do one.
    Good for you. I'm already a member so can't join to send a similar message!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    tpfkar said:

    Hearing a new defection at Lib Dem conference - Neil Carmichael (MP for Stroud 2010-2017) Haven't seen it properly confirmed though.

    another nobody that no-one has ever heard of.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,028

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Anorak said:

    the frothing fuckwits in the DM comment section can just do one.

    Evergreen opinion
  • Byronic said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You've missed out on probably the greatest cultural efflorescence in modern times: the Golden Age of TV Drama.

    You're like some Italian saying, in 1600, "Well I've not seen much of this new Renaissance stuff, but I don't feel like I've missed out".
    I thought similar.
    I have a lady novelist friend who had the same position as Signor Meeks. "Oh TV is rather over-rated, I don't see much anyway. I'm not missing out", then she would bang on about some obscure Icelandic feminist novel I simply HAD to read.

    About a year ago she decided she wanted to write some TV, as novels weren't selling. So I told her she would bloody well have to watch some, then. Finally she yielded and she asked me to giver her a list of the best dramas of the Golden Age, from The Sopranos to the Killing, and all points between.

    Six months later, after watching everything, she called me up, and said. "OMG. It's all brilliant. It is incredible. I never knew TV had got so good. What have I been missing! The novel is finished."

    I think she was overreacting, but it was a fascinating learning curve to witness.
    Is that SK Tremayne you are talking about?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    It's not the fault of the electorate that we are governed by cowards, morons and hypocrites. who refuse to pass an EU deal, even when it is offered, three times. it is not the fault of the electorate that MPs are voting down a Deal because half of them secretly want to Remain, and another chunk are fetishising the worst deal possible.

    It is not the fault of the voters that parliament is not fit-for-purpose. So we must get rid of it, and start again, with an election.

    SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO?!!?!!!!????????????

    Ahem.

    What would you do? We are at an impasse, parliament has legislated against the government's preferred option, the deal has (to date - I still live in hope) not passed in the House of Commons, and no one can do anything.

    The LDs are coming out unambiguously for an idea. You don't like it, which is fine in fact that means there must be some merit to it, but it is wholly in accordance with our political system. Don't like that system? Fine, campaign to change it. Get the votes with a simple majority, say 36% of the vote and change it.

    Until then stop whining.
    I wish I had a switch that would turn parliament upside down and hurl all the MPs into the North Sea. Then we could start over.

    I don't have such a switch. Nor do you. So all we are doing on here is expressing our desires, and anxieties.

    It seems to me there are three reasonable routes out of this mess, none of them perfect. I agree that 1. a new Boris deal is the best bet: perhaps he can do the impossible. We shall see.

    If that doesn't work we can either have 2. a new election, or 3. a 2nd referendum (and 2 would surely lead to 3 anyway)

    None of this is ideal, likesay. But they are all far superior to the two other alternatives, 4. No Deal, which would destabilise the country and brutalise our economy or 5. Revoke,. which would destabilise the country, and brutalise our democracy
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899

    Sorry if I am the 100th person to mention this, but presumably the LibDems will be supportive of Scottish Independence without a referendum if the SNP and Scottish Greens have a majority in Holyrood following the next Scottish election.

    They have already said NO to that one, even if they get all the votes. Both Swinson and Rennie have said not in any circumstance will they agree to Indyref.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,028

    eristdoof said:



    I personally wondered if their approach here might be too blatant and not nuanced enough as well, but based on my wife's unprompted reaction (who is not massively political at all) it might perhaps work.

    Her comment was "great news on the LD policy, I will definitely vote for them now" - I don't think she has ever referenced them before....

    I'm sure there are very many voters who think that "Brexit is bad for the country", want to have their message heard, and so will vote LD. Likewise I do not expect many 2017 LD voters to be lost, due to the LD policy on Brexit going against the 2016 Referendum result.

    The politicos can argue (or argue against) that the LDs are "playing a dangerous game with democracy", but it will almost crtainly be a net vote winner.
    I doubt it will be a vote winner for the LDs - but I applaud the logic. It makes more sense than a 2nd ref on essentially bogus terms as any second ref would be. In 2017 Tim Farron was able to say to leavers, you can still vote for us as Brexit will happen. This time he can't and he won't be the only one with a problem.

    Even the 53% or so remain won't help in Westmorland and perhaps other constituencies - the LDs put out SIX remain leaflets - Leave none except what was sent and they STILL only got 53%.

    It will all be about getting the vote out but there are a lot of constituencies away from London where this policy will not be helpful. Last time Farron's near problem wasn't getting the vote out, it was whether the vote was still there to get out. That will be the problem in the South west as well.
    Farron loses; LD Gain.

  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,527
    malcolmg said:

    tpfkar said:

    Hearing a new defection at Lib Dem conference - Neil Carmichael (MP for Stroud 2010-2017) Haven't seen it properly confirmed though.

    another nobody that no-one has ever heard of.
    And yet here you are posting about him. Isn't education a fine thing?
  • In the wake of changing her party's Brexit policy, could Swinson also this week please get around to changing her party's name?

    Continued reference to her party as "Democrats" is frankly unwarranted. It is clearly not a party that believes in participatory democracy except where it generates the right result. Nor does it appear to believe in representative democracy, in so far as it has just helped block a general election that would have established whether the country was still willing to be governed by parliamentary representatives mostly at odds with the policy that 52% of their constituents voted for. And to make exercises in representative democracy as rare as possible, her party was also instrumental in putting in place a 2/3rds rather than majority threshold to try and avoid those exercises more than once every 5 years.

    Whatever they choose to call themselves, for now on for me it's "Liberals" or "Libs" or "Swinson's Party" but not "Liberal Democrats" or "Lib Dems" or even just "LDs".

    Absurd. Preposterous. To repeat the question asked earlier "are you lot pissed"?

    The idea that in a parliamentary democracy the elected government doesn't have a mandate to carry out the policies in its manifesto is batshit crazy.

    If you want a dictatorship just openly say so and stop dancing around it.
    The only person trying to dictate something is you, namely dictating how I should refer to Swinson's party. Their name implies something that they are not, so I won't use it.

    With "are you lot pissed" you have resorted to generally insulting people you disagree with so I'm not going to bother further with you.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    The Luxembourg PM must be VERY confident it won’t need any favours from the U.K. whilst Boris is still in charge.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:


    It's not the fault of the electorate that we are governed by cowards, morons and hypocrites. who refuse to pass an EU deal, even when it is offered, three times. it is not the fault of the electorate that MPs are voting down a Deal because half of them secretly want to Remain, and another chunk are fetishising the worst deal possible.

    It is not the fault of the voters that parliament is not fit-for-purpose. So we must get rid of it, and start again, with an election.

    Perhaps instead of solely blaming remainers, you can throw some of your righteous ire at the ERGers, Farage and the Brexit Party, who also did a good amount of work to kill May's deal.

    But that probably cuts a little close to home ... ;)
    Er, I did. Read it again.

    "another chunk are fetishising the worst deal possible"
  • Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    So, we're prepared for No Deal, are we?

    I dont know. Better than we were Less than we should have been had we not had the wretched Hammond vetoing preparations.

    But no deal will be considerably less disruptive than the doomster pretend , in my view.
    Are you prepared to go to the back of the queues if you're wrong?
    So we should do a deal at any price? The EU can demand whatever they want and we should give it? Is that your negotiating strategy? Seems a pretty poor one to me...

    And whilst youre about it you should also ask the voters of the pas de calais and elsewhere across europe whether they are prepared to lose their jobs to defend "the project". Because they will. I suspect not.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1173603936659476482

    The Invisible Hulk

    The Incredible Sulk
  • Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
    I see it rather as the reverse. Negotiations end in compromise.

    I dont see much compromise from the EU. Rather i see a weaponisation of the GFA. A profoundly irresponsible (and hostile) act.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    So even though the LDs will back a referendum if they cannot get revoke, given revoke is their preferred option, are they telling me I should be voting for Labour if I am not on board with revoke? Obviously they won't win a GE, but can that be risked? When voting for a party it seems reasonable to do so acknowledging that signals implicit support for their goals.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Scott_P said:
    This is mad from the EU. They are driving us towards No Deal. Cretins.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:
    It's very funny, but I feel like people cheering it would not be cheering if Boris did the same thing. They'd probably say it was diplomatic poor form even if the other person was a bellend.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    Scott_P said:
    One imagines Boris is hunting down a microphone, to complete the second half. Presumably this is also the day Luxemburg lost the U.K. as a friend until one or other is no longer PM.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
    It's just such a nonsense attitude, sold to people who have a penchant for thinking that every fucking interaction in life is some tactical wankery where if your "opponent" isn't losing you can't possibly be winning.
    Such a mindset is just such a bleak wasteland of unproductive chicanery.

    Have you ever watched birds on a birdfeeder? Sometimes it gets absurd when one of them will chase another off, than a third one will chase the second, and the first one will come back and attack the third, and no actual feeding goes on. Meanwhile, there are four perches and enough peanuts to keep them all full for a week. That's exactly what's going on here. The UK and EU's interests area heavily aligned, yet we're acting like it's a competition. It's all so stupifyingly futile.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    tpfkar said:

    malcolmg said:

    tpfkar said:

    Hearing a new defection at Lib Dem conference - Neil Carmichael (MP for Stroud 2010-2017) Haven't seen it properly confirmed though.

    another nobody that no-one has ever heard of.
    And yet here you are posting about him. Isn't education a fine thing?
    That has not enrichened my life one bit and calling it education is a big big stretch. More like 5 seconds of my life wasted that I will never get back.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    Noo said:

    Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
    It's just such a nonsense attitude, sold to people who have a penchant for thinking that every fucking interaction in life is some tactical wankery where if your "opponent" isn't losing you can't possibly be winning.
    Such a mindset is just such a bleak wasteland of unproductive chicanery.

    Have you ever watched birds on a birdfeeder? Sometimes it gets absurd when one of them will chase another off, than a third one will chase the second, and the first one will come back and attack the third, and no actual feeding goes on. Meanwhile, there are four perches and enough peanuts to keep them all full for a week. That's exactly what's going on here. The UK and EU's interests area heavily aligned, yet we're acting like it's a competition. It's all so stupifyingly futile.
    Yep. It's about who is seen to win now, and we can all risk losing to prevent the other winning, even when they can all claim to wnat broadly the same things.
  • Scott_P said:
    Taxi for Johnson.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    malcolmg said:

    tpfkar said:

    Hearing a new defection at Lib Dem conference - Neil Carmichael (MP for Stroud 2010-2017) Haven't seen it properly confirmed though.

    another nobody that no-one has ever heard of.
    I had a meeting with him for 2 hours. 2 hours I will not get back.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Anorak said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/16/rnli-donations-surge-tory-criticism-work-overseas-lifeboat-charity

    To follow up the discussion the other day.

    The Daily Mail comments are quite an eye-opener, about 10:1 against the RNLI for helping foreign little girls, and even attacking the RNLI for its Irish activities.

    I felt obliged to chip in with a donation. I think the RNLI is a wonderful organisation, and the frothing fuckwits in the DM comment section can just do one.
    Anybody who slags RNLI off without reading their response should try reading it
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    RobD said:
    Astonishing behaviour. Why is a press conference being called in front of protestors?
    I bet Bettel will get a rolled up newspaper to the nose from the rest of the EU for that
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    RobD said:
    That plays worse for Luxembourg than it does for the UK. So no mark Xavier Bettell trying to raise his profile.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    This is mad from the EU. They are driving us towards No Deal. Cretins.
    They act like fools so it is expected they should be mocked.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    It's very funny, but I feel like people cheering it would not be cheering if Boris did the same thing. They'd probably say it was diplomatic poor form even if the other person was a bellend.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, please give it up for the warm up man for @Scott_P ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,873
    Just giving this LD policy some proper thought and I think it's debatable whether they would have a true 'substance over form' mandate to Revoke if they were to win a general election.

    I imagined the following to help me -

    Party A 40%
    Slash taxes. Rename Heathrow airport 'Shangri La'.

    Party B 30%
    Hike taxes. Rename GATWICK airport 'Shangri La'.

    Party C 30%
    Hike taxes. Do not rename any airports. Leave them be.

    That 40% delivers a thumping FPTP majority for Party A.

    Now. Do they have a mandate to change the name of Heathrow to Shangri La?

    I would argue Yes. Yes they do. 40% voted for it and - this is the important bit - another 30% clearly are not vehemently opposed because they were happy with that name for Gatwick.

    So clear enough. Change that name.

    But do they have a mandate to slash taxes when 60% of the voting public wish to see the very opposite - taxes RAISED?

    That, I submit, is far from clear.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434

    RobD said:
    Astonishing behaviour. Why is a press conference being called in front of protestors?
    I bet Bettel will get a rolled up newspaper to the nose from the rest of the EU for that
    What would be the benefit to them of doing that? Solidarity and all that.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    ab195 said:

    The Luxembourg PM must be VERY confident it won’t need any favours from the U.K. whilst Boris is still in charge.

    Boris doesn't do favours to anyone who isn't called Boris.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,028
    Noo said:

    Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
    It's just such a nonsense attitude, sold to people who have a penchant for thinking that every fucking interaction in life is some tactical wankery where if your "opponent" isn't losing you can't possibly be winning.
    Such a mindset is just such a bleak wasteland of unproductive chicanery.

    Have you ever watched birds on a birdfeeder? Sometimes it gets absurd when one of them will chase another off, than a third one will chase the second, and the first one will come back and attack the third, and no actual feeding goes on. Meanwhile, there are four perches and enough peanuts to keep them all full for a week. That's exactly what's going on here. The UK and EU's interests area heavily aligned, yet we're acting like it's a competition. It's all so stupifyingly futile.
    We have a governing party (and an opposition) being run by, and financed by, people who have played a zero sum game all their life to get to where they are. They are simply not equipped to co-operate.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899

    malcolmg said:

    tpfkar said:

    Hearing a new defection at Lib Dem conference - Neil Carmichael (MP for Stroud 2010-2017) Haven't seen it properly confirmed though.

    another nobody that no-one has ever heard of.
    I had a meeting with him for 2 hours. 2 hours I will not get back.
    Not good for you but makes me feel better.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,227
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Let's say the Lib Dems won the election and did this.

    We joined the EU without a referendum, didn't we?

    .
    .
    It's not the fault of the electorate that we are governed by cowards, morons and hypocrites. who refuse to pass an EU deal, even when it is offered, three times. it is not the fault of the electorate that MPs are voting down a Deal because half of them secretly want to Remain, and another chunk are fetishising the worst deal possible.

    It is not the fault of the voters that parliament is not fit-for-purpose. So we must get rid of it, and start again, with an election.
    As per usual spectularly wrong!

    It is the fault of the electorate, voters are not some righteous group that can do no wrong, we are simply voters aggregated together with all our normal human faults. A lot of the blame lies with the party leaderships but as I will come onto that is also partly a responsibility of the electorate.

    Inexhaustive list of mistakes by the electorate

    The electorate voted to leave without a clear coherent leave plan existing.
    The government then had to devise a plan and enter the most difficult negotiations for the UK in several generations. The electorate grew impatient with delay which rushed the planning and set unrealistic timescales for transition.
    The government concluded that negotiating from a position of parliamentary weakness was bad for the country so called an election to gain support to leave. The electorate then created a hung parliament, further weakening the UK position.
    The electorate became stubbornly attached to their remain/leave positions at the time of the referendum and neither side is open to new arguments.
    The electorate became more extreme and rejected calls for compromise, rewarding those campaigning for superficial solutions like no deal and revoke, punishing those arguing for soft Brexit.

    and longer term but perhaps most significantly

    The electorate allowed extremists control of the Labour and Conservative parties because they do not want to put in the hours into civic society. They would rather do something more interesting or indeed watch one of the top 100 tv shows. If 1 in 10 of the 6 million who signed the revoke position simply joined either Labour or Tories, they would get their wish. We have collectively instead let the momentum and UKIP entryists take over with very little opposition or dissent.

    The failure of the party leaders, May, Johnson and Corbyn who all share significant blame, are also a wider function of the failure of the electorate to engage constructively in civic society.


  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
    It's just such a nonsense attitude, sold to people who have a penchant for thinking that every fucking interaction in life is some tactical wankery where if your "opponent" isn't losing you can't possibly be winning.
    Such a mindset is just such a bleak wasteland of unproductive chicanery.

    Have you ever watched birds on a birdfeeder? Sometimes it gets absurd when one of them will chase another off, than a third one will chase the second, and the first one will come back and attack the third, and no actual feeding goes on. Meanwhile, there are four perches and enough peanuts to keep them all full for a week. That's exactly what's going on here. The UK and EU's interests area heavily aligned, yet we're acting like it's a competition. It's all so stupifyingly futile.
    We have a governing party (and an opposition) being run by, and financed by, people who have played a zero sum game all their life to get to where they are. They are simply not equipped to co-operate.
    Quite. You can throw the US president onto that same pile too.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Not seen it - might look at an episode. You need to get back into The Wire. I found it helped to turn the subtitles on for the first few episodes.
    A great show, cancelled after one series, so it never got tired! Most of the cast have become big stars, as has the director/writer, I thoroughly recommend viewing.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462
    Re: the Guardian list.

    Hmm. Big Little Lies is omitted. Given that the first series is an absolute masterpiece, perfection in fact, I fear the rest of the list might be somewhat flawed.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:
    Astonishing behaviour. Why is a press conference being called in front of protestors?
    I bet Bettel will get a rolled up newspaper to the nose from the rest of the EU for that
    What would be the benefit to them of doing that? Solidarity and all that.
    I think behind the scenes the solidarity ain't all they claim it is. Stupidly provocative press conference by a very minor player in the game
  • Noo said:

    Tabman said:

    Noo said:

    If you want a deal, prepare for no-deal.

    This is the emptiest Brexit slogan of all. And in such a strong field of numbing, witless vacuums, that takes some doing.
    Rubbish.

    You cannot negotiate a half decent deal unless you can walk away from an unattractive offer. Removing no deal as an option just encourages the EU to be unswerving in their demands.. This is rule 1 in the negotiating play-book.

    Fortunately the British public seem to understand that.
    Rubbish. What we see now is someone living in a nice house, looking to move to another house, but threatening to go and live in a shed if the seller won't budge.
    It's just such a nonsense attitude, sold to people who have a penchant for thinking that every fucking interaction in life is some tactical wankery where if your "opponent" isn't losing you can't possibly be winning.
    Such a mindset is just such a bleak wasteland of unproductive chicanery.

    Have you ever watched birds on a birdfeeder? Sometimes it gets absurd when one of them will chase another off, than a third one will chase the second, and the first one will come back and attack the third, and no actual feeding goes on. Meanwhile, there are four perches and enough peanuts to keep them all full for a week. That's exactly what's going on here. The UK and EU's interests area heavily aligned, yet we're acting like it's a competition. It's all so stupifyingly futile.
    The EU are not negotiating in good faith.

    The British are heretics and have strayed from the true path. Heretics need to be made examples of lest they encourage heresy in others. That is the nub of it.

    The Reformation did not end Catholic worship and Brexit will not end the religious attachment many Brits have for the EU as the one true faith.
  • Byronic said:


    It seems to me there are three reasonable routes out of this mess, none of them perfect. I agree that 1. a new Boris deal is the best bet: perhaps he can do the impossible. We shall see.

    If that doesn't work we can either have 2. a new election, or 3. a 2nd referendum (and 2 would surely lead to 3 anyway)

    None of this is ideal, likesay. But they are all far superior to the two other alternatives, 4. No Deal, which would destabilise the country and brutalise our economy or 5. Revoke,. which would destabilise the country, and brutalise our democracy

    I find this pretty persuasive although I do wonder if there's much practical difference between Referendum+Revoke and straight Revoke, since at this point I'd expect the Leave side would boycott the referendum, especially if it didn't offer No Deal, which a responsible government wouldn't. In which case, well, I suppose it's more democratic in that they had the *opportunity* to vote if they wanted to, but it feels like a bit of a charade...
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    kle4 said:

    So even though the LDs will back a referendum if they cannot get revoke, given revoke is their preferred option, are they telling me I should be voting for Labour if I am not on board with revoke? Obviously they won't win a GE, but can that be risked? When voting for a party it seems reasonable to do so acknowledging that signals implicit support for their goals.

    Revoke without a referendum is not democratic anyone with a brain can work that out.
    GE are about many policies not just Brexit.
    As people have said , Swinson would not agree to the SNP leaving the UK , if they win the next Scottish elections.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,028
    kinabalu said:

    Just giving this LD policy some proper thought and I think it's debatable whether they would have a true 'substance over form' mandate to Revoke if they were to win a general election.

    I imagined the following to help me -

    Party A 40%
    Slash taxes. Rename Heathrow airport 'Shangri La'.

    Party B 30%
    Hike taxes. Rename GATWICK airport 'Shangri La'.

    Party C 30%
    Hike taxes. Do not rename any airports. Leave them be.

    That 40% delivers a thumping FPTP majority for Party A.

    Now. Do they have a mandate to change the name of Heathrow to Shangri La?

    I would argue Yes. Yes they do. 40% voted for it and - this is the important bit - another 30% clearly are not vehemently opposed because they were happy with that name for Gatwick.

    So clear enough. Change that name.

    But do they have a mandate to slash taxes when 60% of the voting public wish to see the very opposite - taxes RAISED?

    That, I submit, is far from clear.

    It worked for every Conservative "majority" government of the last four decades.
  • TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You are missing out. Get some of the higher rated series and enjoy yourself*.

    *the Good Wife is excellent, sounds like someone in your household has a good appreciation of dramatic art.
    I don’t want to encourage Alastair to do anything that might give him less time to write the excellent thread headers he does on our behalf.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462
    'The Invisible Sulk' might have legs.

    That is very clever.
  • RobD said:
    Does Boris Johnson have vast reservoirs of support to draw on for his no-show?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,699
    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    So even though the LDs will back a referendum if they cannot get revoke, given revoke is their preferred option, are they telling me I should be voting for Labour if I am not on board with revoke? Obviously they won't win a GE, but can that be risked? When voting for a party it seems reasonable to do so acknowledging that signals implicit support for their goals.

    Revoke without a referendum is not democratic anyone with a brain can work that out.
    GE are about many policies not just Brexit.
    As people have said , Swinson would not agree to the SNP leaving the UK , if they win the next Scottish elections.
    Yet Mrs Thatcher - of all people - accepted that consequence of a majority of SNP MPs in Scotland.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    So even though the LDs will back a referendum if they cannot get revoke, given revoke is their preferred option, are they telling me I should be voting for Labour if I am not on board with revoke? Obviously they won't win a GE, but can that be risked? When voting for a party it seems reasonable to do so acknowledging that signals implicit support for their goals.

    GE are about many policies not just Brexit.
    Yes, but we have to weigh them up in the balance. And the LDs clearly make revoking a very very big part of their offer.

    But there's not much else to pick from of course. No deal vs phony renegotiation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Well, Bruce Banner was afraid of his own strength, clearly Boris is afraid of his own awesomeness.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462
    Still chortling at The Incredible Sulk.

    That is genius – good headline for the papers.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,900
    "the invisible sulk" - genius.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Scott_P said:
    How tinpot is Luxembourg that they couldn't find a single place to have a press conference? You certainly wouldn't allow 100 frothing FBPE types outside Downing Street where the press stand so it's either deliberate to try and embarrass Britain or just poorly organised. Fair play to the PM for not falling into the trap.
  • Scott_P said:
    We all know that Boris will run, run, run away. Perhaps it explains his obsession with Boris island airport. Attacking Corbyn for cowardice when the dear leader is a clear coward himself will backfire spectactularly when the actual campaign happens.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Bettel getting an absolute blasting from both remainers and leavers on social media. I knew Luxembourg would be good for something!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,697

    RobD said:
    Does Boris Johnson have vast reservoirs of support to draw on for his no-show?
    In the same way it is 'clever' to bad mouth and give Trump a hard time when he is in the UK.

    I think it is wrong to show disrespect to the legal representative(s) of a democratic friendly nation.

    You don't win a lot of friends by humiliating the position of PM or the position of President of USA. The position is of equal or greater importance than the person.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You are missing out. Get some of the higher rated series and enjoy yourself*.

    *the Good Wife is excellent, sounds like someone in your household has a good appreciation of dramatic art.
    The Good Wife is fine. Nothing amazing. The Killing was exceptional. If all TV were like that, I’d be watching it nonstop.

    I don’t have the time to invest in television series with all my other commitments and interests. Something has to give.
    Which consideration is what prompted the original question. I haven't and won't see everything on the list, but I'd like to know what else I might be missing.

  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Number 10 source says Boris Johnson's team repeatedly asked to move the press conference inside "due to the number of people who would boo and chant" over it, but Luxembourg refused.
    “The whole series of events is extraordinary and reflects far more on them than it does us.”

    — Arj Singh (@singharj) September 16, 2019
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    So even though the LDs will back a referendum if they cannot get revoke, given revoke is their preferred option, are they telling me I should be voting for Labour if I am not on board with revoke? Obviously they won't win a GE, but can that be risked? When voting for a party it seems reasonable to do so acknowledging that signals implicit support for their goals.

    Revoke without a referendum is not democratic anyone with a brain can work that out.
    GE are about many policies not just Brexit.
    As people have said , Swinson would not agree to the SNP leaving the UK , if they win the next Scottish elections.
    Ah well, pity Brexit supporters went about claiming "85%" or whatever voted for Brexit at the last GE. Pity Brexiters didn't do more to say "well, it's complex when people vote in a GE, it's not all about one particular policy". A real missed opportunity there.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    There you go then. The Luxemburgers did it deliberately. Nuke them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    ab195 said:

    Scott_P said:
    One imagines Boris is hunting down a microphone, to complete the second half. Presumably this is also the day Luxemburg lost the U.K. as a friend until one or other is no longer PM.
    Let's just fucking invade them - and use their EU veto on any extension.

  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2019

    'The Invisible Sulk' might have legs.

    That is very clever.

    Give "Anabobazina" a bit longer
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    The electorate weren't keen on the EU treatment of Mrs May at times, Xavier Bettels hissy fit and ridiculous stunt will not go down well, and I'm not sure the EU negotiators will be thrilled with him
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,105
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    There you go then. The Luxemburgers did it deliberately. Nuke them.
    Pathetic. And for what purpose? They could have just removed a podium.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251

    Still chortling at The Incredible Sulk.

    That is genius – good headline for the papers.

    Would have been funny if it hadn't already been applied to Ted Heath, decades ago.....
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Byronic said:

    There you go then. The Luxemburgers did it deliberately. Nuke them.
    No doubt they weren't expecting these sources to leak. Perhaps in Luxembourg the PM can dictate what the media release but not when he's dealing with the British press. This sort of imagery is absolute gold for the no deal campaign.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2019
    Even as a remainiac I think holding the conference with an empty podium was bad form and counter-productive. There has been a very clear narrative of the EU behaving like the adult in the room, and this undermines it to no clear end.
  • RobD said:
    Astonishing behaviour. Why is a press conference being called in front of protestors?
    I bet Bettel will get a rolled up newspaper to the nose from the rest of the EU for that
    Good for Johnson for walking away.

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1173608460631576576

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,462

    Still chortling at The Incredible Sulk.

    That is genius – good headline for the papers.

    Would have been funny if it hadn't already been applied to Ted Heath, decades ago.....
    The difference is that Heath didn't claim to be the real world manifestation of Bruce Banner (at least not to my knowledge!)
  • The electorate weren't keen on the EU treatment of Mrs May at times, Xavier Bettels hissy fit and ridiculous stunt will not go down well, and I'm not sure the EU negotiators will be thrilled with him

    Many people who disagreed with her had respect for Mrs May, especially her determination and hard work. There will not be anything like the same respect for a lying, lazy coward they disagree with.
  • Well the Sun's and the Mails headlines have just been written for tomorrow..
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Anorak said:

    Even as a remainiac I think holding the conference with an empty podium was bad form and counter-productive. There has been a very clear narrative of the EU behaving like the adult in the room, and this undermines it to no clear end.

    That said, this is still quite funny:
    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/1173600063408545794
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,434

    The electorate weren't keen on the EU treatment of Mrs May at times, Xavier Bettels hissy fit and ridiculous stunt will not go down well, and I'm not sure the EU negotiators will be thrilled with him

    Many people who disagreed with her had respect for Mrs May, especially her determination and hard work. There will not be anything like the same respect for a lying, lazy coward they disagree with.
    I don't respect Boris, but however petty his reaction I don't see how that makes pettiness on their part any better.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    The electorate weren't keen on the EU treatment of Mrs May at times, Xavier Bettels hissy fit and ridiculous stunt will not go down well, and I'm not sure the EU negotiators will be thrilled with him

    Many people who disagreed with her had respect for Mrs May, especially her determination and hard work. There will not be anything like the same respect for a lying, lazy coward they disagree with.
    You appear to know an awful amount about the PM of Luxembourg. I do not know if he is a lazy coward but I do know small time stunt's invariably are not a good look for National leaders.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    philiph said:

    RobD said:
    Does Boris Johnson have vast reservoirs of support to draw on for his no-show?
    In the same way it is 'clever' to bad mouth and give Trump a hard time when he is in the UK.

    I think it is wrong to show disrespect to the legal representative(s) of a democratic friendly nation.

    You don't win a lot of friends by humiliating the position of PM or the position of President of USA. The position is of equal or greater importance than the person.
    On the other hand, Johnson is surely familiar with St Ambrose's dictum:
    ‘Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi.’
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,105

    Still chortling at The Incredible Sulk.

    That is genius – good headline for the papers.

    Would have been funny if it hadn't already been applied to Ted Heath, decades ago.....
    The difference is that Heath didn't claim to be the real world manifestation of Bruce Banner (at least not to my knowledge!)
    How about the Incredible Sulk II? I hear sequels are a big thing these days.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    I won’t be the only person in this country whose reaction to those pictures is “f#ck ‘em”.

    The only question is whether there’s enough of us in the right places to return a Gvt at the next election. It’s 50/50 I reckon.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Noo said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    So even though the LDs will back a referendum if they cannot get revoke, given revoke is their preferred option, are they telling me I should be voting for Labour if I am not on board with revoke? Obviously they won't win a GE, but can that be risked? When voting for a party it seems reasonable to do so acknowledging that signals implicit support for their goals.

    Revoke without a referendum is not democratic anyone with a brain can work that out.
    GE are about many policies not just Brexit.
    As people have said , Swinson would not agree to the SNP leaving the UK , if they win the next Scottish elections.
    Ah well, pity Brexit supporters went about claiming "85%" or whatever voted for Brexit at the last GE. Pity Brexiters didn't do more to say "well, it's complex when people vote in a GE, it's not all about one particular policy". A real missed opportunity there.
    I agree.
    However comparing Lib Dems with them , says it all.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,972

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You are missing out. Get some of the higher rated series and enjoy yourself*.

    *the Good Wife is excellent, sounds like someone in your household has a good appreciation of dramatic art.
    The Good Wife is fine. Nothing amazing. The Killing was exceptional. If all TV were like that, I’d be watching it nonstop.

    I don’t have the time to invest in television series with all my other commitments and interests. Something has to give.
    Yes I appreciate that time is limited. The Good Wife was indeed fine; I think No. 39 was about right perhaps a tadge low.

    But there is some fantastic drama out there if drama is your thing.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Brom said:

    Byronic said:

    There you go then. The Luxemburgers did it deliberately. Nuke them.
    No doubt they weren't expecting these sources to leak. Perhaps in Luxembourg the PM can dictate what the media release but not when he's dealing with the British press. This sort of imagery is absolute gold for the no deal campaign.
    I wouldn't be so sure.
  • ab195 said:

    I won’t be the only person in this country whose reaction to those pictures is “f#ck ‘em”.

    The only question is whether there’s enough of us in the right places to return a Gvt at the next election. It’s 50/50 I reckon.

    Knock yourselves out. You could elect Godfrey Bloom Prime Minister for all the difference it would make to the reality of our choices.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,972
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T fpt:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    In an attempt to derail the thread, what is missing from this list ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/100-best-tv-shows-of-the-21st-century

    I have watched a lot of telly in my time but have seen just 2 of the top 10 - The Office and Fleabag.

    Surprised - and slightly perturbed - by this.
    Extraordinary. Of course people can argue the toss between The Sopranos and The Wire but not to have seen either.

    What on earth is your demographic?
    Number 78 is one of my favourite ever shows. The Guardian are good at something at least.
    I have seen one episode of one of the top ten (the pilot of Breaking Bad).
    Blimey. I think I’ve watched every episode of The Sopranos, The Office and Peep Show, but not anything else in the top 10 except a few episodes of The Wire.

    Freaks & Geeks is a hidden gem.
    Looking down the top 100, I’ve seen an episode of Line Of Duty, all of The Killing, the Blue Planet, some Big Brother*, some Bake Off*, most of the Good Wife*, some of South Park, some of Doctor Who, a fair amount of Sherlock, Planet Earth, some Inbetweeners, Gavin & Stacey, some Strictly*, some Gogglebox, some I’m A Celebrity*.

    *Not my choice.

    I don’t watch much TV and I don’t feel I’ve missed out much. I’ve not heard of about a third of the list.
    You are missing out. Get some of the higher rated series and enjoy yourself*.

    *the Good Wife is excellent, sounds like someone in your household has a good appreciation of dramatic art.
    The Good Wife is fine. Nothing amazing. The Killing was exceptional. If all TV were like that, I’d be watching it nonstop.

    I don’t have the time to invest in television series with all my other commitments and interests. Something has to give.
    Which consideration is what prompted the original question. I haven't and won't see everything on the list, but I'd like to know what else I might be missing.

    Start with the top five and you won't go far wrong.
  • I’m not sure that Boris Johnson will want sympathy at being ridiculed. Doesn’t smack of strong leadership.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    kle4 said:

    The electorate weren't keen on the EU treatment of Mrs May at times, Xavier Bettels hissy fit and ridiculous stunt will not go down well, and I'm not sure the EU negotiators will be thrilled with him

    Many people who disagreed with her had respect for Mrs May, especially her determination and hard work. There will not be anything like the same respect for a lying, lazy coward they disagree with.
    I don't respect Boris, but however petty his reaction I don't see how that makes pettiness on their part any better.
    True. He's a feckless, lying, lazy fuckwit, but by jingo he's our feckless, lying, lazy fuckwit.

    This will not play well domestically.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,105
    edited September 2019
    148grss said:
    A cunning plan?

    Who knew that drafting and passing legislation in a single day turned out to be a crap idea.
  • "Hey, babe! I negotiate million dollar deals for breakfast! I think I can handle this Eurotrash!" :lol:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,852
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Even as a remainiac I think holding the conference with an empty podium was bad form and counter-productive. There has been a very clear narrative of the EU behaving like the adult in the room, and this undermines it to no clear end.

    That said, this is still quite funny:
    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/1173600063408545794
    Yes, he might at least have smashed the podium on the way out.
  • I’m not sure that Boris Johnson will want sympathy at being ridiculed. Doesn’t smack of strong leadership.

    He's been there before - remember the zipline gaffe? :lol:
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    I’m not sure that Boris Johnson will want sympathy at being ridiculed. Doesn’t smack of strong leadership.

    I think this is true too. I do believe the correct decision was made to not proceed with the Presser though. It will look cowardly through some eyes but far better than the optics of Boris trying to talk through the boos next to a smug Luxembourg PM who knew he would be cheered to the hilt.
This discussion has been closed.