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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Courts should be an emergency backstop to parliament, not

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  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    That would seem to suggest the union is more important to the Lib Dems than the EU.
    Would be interesting to see whether there are unintended consequences of that, such as Lib Dems who are much keener on Europe and more ambivalent about the union breaking towards SNP instead of Tory. There might even be some Tories under that banner too, that would have broken towards the Lib Dems but might be forced to the SNP if the Lib Dems stand down.
    Detailed polling needed I think.
    One obvious potential problem is any clash with London HQ - esp as the mass media tend to emphasise the London message rather than the local party message - the Labour Party in Scotland has fallen foul of that in recent months.

    Another is that the LDs may feel they have more to lose than gain from an alliance with the Tories - I should think there is a prima facie market for a pro-union, pro-remain party in Scotland.

    Indeed the coalition with the Tories damaged the LDs very badly in Scotland and Ms Swinson has plenty of history from that episode that could be deployed against her if there was a suggestion of an alliance with the Tories.

    I would be interested to know more about the legality of such things. It depends how up front the parties are. A formal coupon Unionist alliance is one thing, but quietly dialling down campaigning in specific seats is another. The situation in Aberdeen City Council gives a third possibility - deny up front, but enjoy the benefits de facto.
    I'm certain that a quiet soft-pedalling in certain constituencies happened in 2017. The comments from Kezia Dugdale before the election seemed to indicate that mindset was abound, and the literature distribution was reportedly quite uneven in a few parts of the country (I've heard a few examples but one example is Edinburgh South West, which neighbours a main Labour target and a separate main Lib Dem target apparently had very little unionist activity other than the Tories).
  • Now, why would 'Tory sources' want to say that?
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Noo said:

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    That would seem to suggest the union is more important to the Lib Dems than the EU.
    Would be interesting to see whether there are unintended consequences of that, such as Lib Dems who are much keener on Europe and more ambivalent about the union breaking towards SNP instead of Tory. There might even be some Tories under that banner too, that would have broken towards the Lib Dems but might be forced to the SNP if the Lib Dems stand down.
    Detailed polling needed I think.
    One obvious potential problem is any clash with London HQ - esp as the mass media tend to emphasise the London message rather than the local party message - the Labour Party in Scotland has fallen foul of that in recent months.

    Another is that the LDs may feel they have more to lose than gain from an alliance with the Tories - I should think there is a prima facie market for a pro-union, pro-remain party in Scotland.

    Indeed the coalition with the Tories damaged the LDs very badly in Scotland and Ms Swinson has plenty of history from that episode that could be deployed against her if there was a suggestion of an alliance with the Tories.

    I would be interested to know more about the legality of such things. It depends how up front the parties are. A formal coupon Unionist alliance is one thing, but quietly dialling down campaigning in specific seats is another. The situation in Aberdeen City Council gives a third possibility - deny up front, but enjoy the benefits de facto.
    I'm certain that a quiet soft-pedalling in certain constituencies happened in 2017. The comments from Kezia Dugdale before the election seemed to indicate that mindset was abound, and the literature distribution was reportedly quite uneven in a few parts of the country (I've heard a few examples but one example is Edinburgh South West, which neighbours a main Labour target and a separate main Lib Dem target apparently had very little unionist activity other than the Tories).
    Oh, and there's nothing illegal about that, surely? Parties are at liberty to focus their attention. Whether it's politically a good idea is my main question.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    That would seem to suggest the union is more important to the Lib Dems than the EU.
    Would be interesting to see whether there are unintended consequences of that, such as Lib Dems who are much keener on Europe and more ambivalent about the union breaking towards SNP instead of Tory. There might even be some Tories under that banner too, that would have broken towards the Lib Dems but might be forced to the SNP if the Lib Dems stand down.
    Detailed polling needed I think.
    One obvious potential problem is any clash with London HQ - esp as the mass media tend to emphasise the London message rather than the local party message - the Labour Party in Scotland has fallen foul of that in recent months.

    Another is that the LDs may feel they have more to lose than gain from an alliance with the Tories - I should think there is a prima facie market for a pro-union, pro-remain party in Scotland.

    Indeed the coalition with the Tories damaged the LDs very badly in Scotland and Ms Swinson has plenty of history from that episode that could be deployed against her if there was a suggestion of an alliance with the Tories.

    I would be interested to know more about the legality of such things. It depends how up front the parties are. A formal coupon Unionist alliance is one thing, but quietly dialling down campaigning in specific seats is another. The situation in Aberdeen City Council gives a third possibility - deny up front, but enjoy the benefits de facto.
    The Ruth Davidson faction is probably seducable by the LDs, and probably would feel quite at home. I don't think many SLDs would be keen on the BoZo faction.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    Now, why would 'Tory sources' want to say that?
    Exactly.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    On topic, I can imagine a scenario where following an election, it is clear the sitting PM has been turfed out. So as the results come in, he goes to the Palace and prorogues Parliament for five years. That would clearly be an abuse of the right to prorogue. But equally, it is such an obvious abuse that you would feel the Monarch would be entirely within their powers to refuse that prorogation.

    And therein lies my point - that prorogation already has an inbuilt mechanism to prevent abuse, without resorting to the courts. It is Her Majesty's Government - if it abuses power vested in it, Her Majesty could remedy that abuse. The Sovereign in this case might have had qualms about shutting down Parliament for six weeks over the conference period - but not enough to intervene to reduce it.

    I think if prorogation had been until 1st November, with the obvious intent of ensuring that Brexit happened because any Parliamentary intervention was blocked, then HM the Q might well have intervened. But it wasn't, there is really nothing happening until after the EU summit for Parliament to get its teeth into -and so I would be seriously disquieted if the SC were to overturn the prorogation in this instance.

    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.
  • This is the list provided by e-surgery.

    https://e-surgery.com/brexit-crisis-medication-shortage-list/

    Several of them are generics and some are OTC, so while more exotic drugs may face challenges, some of them should not.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    That would seem to suggest the union is more important to the Lib Dems than the EU.
    Would be interesting to see whether there are unintended consequences of that, such as Lib Dems who are much keener on Europe and more ambivalent about the union breaking towards SNP instead of Tory. There might even be some Tories under that banner too, that would have broken towards the Lib Dems but might be forced to the SNP if the Lib Dems stand down.
    Detailed polling needed I think.
    One obvious potential problem is any clash with London HQ - esp as the mass media tend to emphasise the London message rather than the local party message - the Labour Party in Scotland has fallen foul of that in recent months.

    Another is that the LDs may feel they have more to lose than gain from an alliance with the Tories - I should think there is a prima facie market for a pro-union, pro-remain party in Scotland.

    Indeed the coalition with the Tories damaged the LDs very badly in Scotland and Ms Swinson has plenty of history from that episode that could be deployed against her if there was a suggestion of an alliance with the Tories.

    I would be interested to know more about the legality of such things. It depends how up front the parties are. A formal coupon Unionist alliance is one thing, but quietly dialling down campaigning in specific seats is another. The situation in Aberdeen City Council gives a third possibility - deny up front, but enjoy the benefits de facto.
    I'm certain that a quiet soft-pedalling in certain constituencies happened in 2017. The comments from Kezia Dugdale before the election seemed to indicate that mindset was abound, and the literature distribution was reportedly quite uneven in a few parts of the country (I've heard a few examples but one example is Edinburgh South West, which neighbours a main Labour target and a separate main Lib Dem target apparently had very little unionist activity other than the Tories).
    Oh, and there's nothing illegal about that, surely? Parties are at liberty to focus their attention. Whether it's politically a good idea is my main question.
    I recall being very surprised by Ian Murray's interview with the Guardian before the 2017 election in which he said e supported voting Tory and LD to get the SNP out where necessary (so long as their voters reciprocated, especially in Edinburgh South). Can't find the interview in a hurry, but the main point is confirmed here

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/tory-and-snp-positions-in-scotland-suggest-surge-in-tactical-voting
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I can imagine a scenario where following an election, it is clear the sitting PM has been turfed out. So as the results come in, he goes to the Palace and prorogues Parliament for five years. That would clearly be an abuse of the right to prorogue. But equally, it is such an obvious abuse that you would feel the Monarch would be entirely within their powers to refuse that prorogation.

    And therein lies my point - that prorogation already has an inbuilt mechanism to prevent abuse, without resorting to the courts. It is Her Majesty's Government - if it abuses power vested in it, Her Majesty could remedy that abuse. The Sovereign in this case might have had qualms about shutting down Parliament for six weeks over the conference period - but not enough to intervene to reduce it.

    I think if prorogation had been until 1st November, with the obvious intent of ensuring that Brexit happened because any Parliamentary intervention was blocked, then HM the Q might well have intervened. But it wasn't, there is really nothing happening until after the EU summit for Parliament to get its teeth into -and so I would be seriously disquieted if the SC were to overturn the prorogation in this instance.

    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.
    It's important not to assume the monarch is a fair-minded arbiter whose interest lies in the democratic health of the country. Historically, monarchs have tended in other directions.
    A constitution that relies on there not being a conspiracy of two people is vulnerable, even if you have faith in the current head of state. And what happens if she is incapacitated by illness. If the queen was suffering from dementia, who would be taking the decision turf the PM out? The heir apparent? Some other regent? Nobody?
  • Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK..
    And all three are available as generics.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Carnyx said:



    I recall being very surprised by Ian Murray's interview with the Guardian before the 2017 election in which he said e supported voting Tory and LD to get the SNP out where necessary (so long as their voters reciprocated, especially in Edinburgh South). Can't find the interview in a hurry, but the main point is confirmed here

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/tory-and-snp-positions-in-scotland-suggest-surge-in-tactical-voting

    I missed that from Murray. But yes, it's a good illustration.
    Nothing wrong with it. It can be effective, but it also plays into the SNP's hands.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    ydoethur said:

    Bugger. Nathan Lyon bowls pies all morning and then that happens.

    And he's an annoying sort of bowler who can get on a roll. England need a good batsman to come in and go big.

    Unfortunately they've got Joe Root.

    Why did Australia drop Starc ? He has only played one test. Bowled very well in the 2nd innings at Old Trafford and his footmarks would have assisted Lyon. Puzzling !
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK..
    And all three are available as generics.
    Exactly. So why are they on the list ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    That would seem to suggest the union is more important to the Lib Dems than the EU.
    Would be interesting to see whether there are unintended consequences of that, such as Lib Dems who are much keener on Europe and more ambivalent about the union breaking towards SNP instead of Tory. There might even be some Tories under that banner too, that would have broken towards the Lib Dems but might be forced to the SNP if the Lib Dems stand down.
    Detailed polling needed I think.
    One obvious potential problem is any clash with London HQ - esp as the mass media tend to emphasise the London message rather than the local party message - the Labour Party in Scotland has fallen foul of that in recent months.

    Another is that the LDs may feel they have more to lose than gain from an alliance with the Tories - I should think there is a prima facie market for a pro-union, pro-remain party in Scotland.

    Indeed the coalition with the Tories damaged the LDs very badly in Scotland and Ms Swinson has plenty of history from that episode that could be deployed against her if there was a suggestion of an alliance with the Tories.

    I would be interested to know more about the legality of such things. It depends how up front the parties are. A formal coupon Unionist alliance is one thing, but quietly dialling down campaigning in specific seats is another. The situation in Aberdeen City Council gives a third possibility - deny up front, but enjoy the benefits de facto.
    The Ruth Davidson faction is probably seducable by the LDs, and probably would feel quite at home. I don't think many SLDs would be keen on the BoZo faction.
    I'm not sure there ever was a very permanent Ruth Davidson faction within the party, if only because she seems to have changed doctrine so radically - but certainly a lot of voters were attracted by her persona and the marketing as the Ruth Davidson Party. I agree, another non-sandal-wearing and vaguely right wing mildly social liberal young parent could slip very well into the mental slot Ms D vacated.

    I suppose the acceptabiloity of the Tories would enter a steeper nosedive if they went for hard brexit and above all if they entered into an alliance with Mr Farage's party.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    FF43 said:

    The key point here is that Johnson's government literally has no workable Brexit policy. Other parties' policies might not be what we want. But at least they are actionable.

    https://twitter.com/HeleneBismarck/status/1172805102228377601

    But Benn has shown that Parliament can whizz legislation through Parliament.....

    That was a short Bill .

    The WAIB is going to be huge and needs proper scrutiny and debate . This is desperation from Johnson . I doubt the public are going to riot if a deal is passed and it needs an extra month to go through .

    He’s obsessed with the 31st October . I also doubt the BP are going to clean up if the UK is definitely going to leave but the legislation needs a few more weeks .
    Yes, since the prorogation has happened, and there is the Queens Speech too (couldn't that have waited until November?) Parliamentary time is to short for any "revised" Deal. Hence we either extend, or No Deal Brexit.

    Interesting that taking No Deal off the table seems to have accelerated rather than retarded efforts at negotiations. Only 5 of BoZos 30 days left by my count...
    Yes Bozo is now desperate for a deal to avoid an extension . The fact he got the prorogation whilst parliament was in recess counts against him . That alone suggests he thought the Commons might act to stop him .

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Bloody hell, Joe Root, you are not supposed to DO what I post!

    The key difference between Root Mk1 and Root Mk2 was Mk1 would make a pretty fifty and throw away his wicket. Now, he just throws away his wicket.

    You know England haven't had a great morning when Joe Denly has been the standout batsman. He's about overdue to throw away his wicket as well.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Noo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I can imagine a scenario where following an election, it is clear the sitting PM has been turfed out. So as the results come in, he goes to the Palace and prorogues Parliament for five years. That would clearly be an abuse of the right to prorogue. But equally, it is such an obvious abuse that you would feel the Monarch would be entirely within their powers to refuse that prorogation.

    And therein lies my point - that prorogation already has an inbuilt mechanism to prevent abuse, without resorting to the courts. It is Her Majesty's Government - if it abuses power vested in it, Her Majesty could remedy that abuse. The Sovereign in this case might have had qualms about shutting down Parliament for six weeks over the conference period - but not enough to intervene to reduce it.

    I think if prorogation had been until 1st November, with the obvious intent of ensuring that Brexit happened because any Parliamentary intervention was blocked, then HM the Q might well have intervened. But it wasn't, there is really nothing happening until after the EU summit for Parliament to get its teeth into -and so I would be seriously disquieted if the SC were to overturn the prorogation in this instance.

    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.
    It's important not to assume the monarch is a fair-minded arbiter whose interest lies in the democratic health of the country. Historically, monarchs have tended in other directions.
    A constitution that relies on there not being a conspiracy of two people is vulnerable, even if you have faith in the current head of state. And what happens if she is incapacitated by illness. If the queen was suffering from dementia, who would be taking the decision turf the PM out? The heir apparent? Some other regent? Nobody?
    Don’t like the monarchy? Stick the abolition of it in a manifesto and win an election.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited September 2019
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Facile panic-mongering.

    Fact is, we got through the Black Death, and actually came out of it - whatever the naysayers claim - a much stronger, happier country: a land where it was much easier to park.

    Was it easy? Not always. Apocalyptic plague is notoriously tricky. But we prospered afterwards, just as will prosper after Brexit.

    Let’s move on.
  • Meanwhile, in Austin Powers type news:
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1172839162434740224
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Byronic said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Facile panic-mongering.

    Fact is, we got through the Black Death, and actually came out of it - whatever the naysayers claim -,a much stronger, happier country: where it was much easier to park. Was it easy? Not always. Nothing worth doing is ever easy, apocalyptic plague is notoriously tricky. But we prospered afterwards, just as will prosper after Brexit.

    Let’s move on.
    Brexit - not as bad as a pandemic that killed 40% of the population.

    Doesn't do it for me as a slogan. Has anyone put it on a bus yet?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Daily Mail needs some of Yang's MATH merchandise for ironic laughs.


    "In an online Drudge poll Andrew Yang was named the winner. Out of 38,691 voters he grabbed 398% of the vote"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7459315/Andrew-Yang-crowned-2020-Democratic-Debate-winner-online-poll.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell, Joe Root, you are not supposed to DO what I post!

    The key difference between Root Mk1 and Root Mk2 was Mk1 would make a pretty fifty and throw away his wicket. Now, he just throws away his wicket.

    You know England haven't had a great morning when Joe Denly has been the standout batsman. He's about overdue to throw away his wicket as well.

    Blame cricinfo:
    Right, back comes Lyon, with just over ten minutes to go until lunch. Interesting little passage of play. Do they go after him again? I guess just play him on merit ...or lack of, to judge by his recent returns...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    LDs just voted for same sex marriage in NI in first session of their conference just finished on BBC Parliament
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    So a stolen toilet .... I suppose at this early stage the Thames Valley Police have nothing to go on ??
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    BBC Parliament now showing First Minister's Questions from Holyrood recorded and have to say I am impressed by interim Scottish Conservative leader Jackson Carlaw, confident and fluent and putting Sturgeon under pressure. He looks a good bet to me to succeed Ruth Davidson
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    Good article by David Herdson too and it will be interesting to see what the Supreme Court decides next week
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    JackW said:

    So a stolen toilet .... I suppose at this early stage the Thames Valley Police have nothing to go on ??
    Was something in it ? Sorry !
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited September 2019
    JackW said:

    So a stolen toilet .... I suppose at this early stage the Thames Valley Police have nothing to go on ??
    Now you're just taking the piss, your grace.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    JackW said:

    So a stolen toilet .... I suppose at this early stage the Thames Valley Police have nothing to go on ??
    Was that the ducal seat of power?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    Swinson also ruled out a coalition with either the Tories or Labour in a Guardian interview saying 'In an interview with the Guardian, Ms Swinson ruled out any kind of coalition with the Conservatives or Labour.
    She said neither Conservative leader Boris Johnson nor Labour's Jeremy Corbyn were fit to be prime minister.
    Mr Johnson did not care about anyone but himself, she said, and she criticised Mr Corbyn's failure to tackle anti-Semitism in his own party'


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49698800
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    So they know better than 17.4m voters then, huh?

    At least they aren't pretending to be democrats in the Liberal Demo - oh.......
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    Except Boris got his upper second in Classics, not PPE like Cameron
  • alednamalednam Posts: 186
    But how wide the latitude?
    Here’s how to become a dictator (of the UK)
    1. Make yourself appealing to the small number of UK citizens who are paid up members of your Party at a time when election to its leadership means you’ll become P.M.
    2. Prorogue Parliament at a time and for such period as you find it to be in your interests to govern unfettered.
    3. Have no fear of your prorogation being found illegal. Here you need to rely on the highest Court deciding that there’s no legal question about its propriety.
    4. Have no fear that there might be cries to change the law in view of the manifest democratic impropriety of your prorogation. There’s no need to fear this: it’s simple for you to prevent the law being changed. Only Parliament can change the law, and you can now prorogue Parliament to suit your own purposes. (At this point, the Courts have set a precedent ensuring that this isn’t a judiciable matter.)
    5. Appreciate that if you’d like to govern unfettered for a protracted period, then you only have to prorogue Parliament for a goodly long while.
    6. You might find that a bloody insurrection stands in your way. So you must get the police and the troops on your side. (Bribery might help: you set their pay.)
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    edited September 2019

    JackW said:

    So a stolen toilet .... I suppose at this early stage the Thames Valley Police have nothing to go on ??
    Was something in it ? Sorry !
    Police say they have nothing to go on.

    Edit: JackW in before me. That joke was old when he was a lad.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152

    HYUFD said:

    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    So they know better than 17.4m voters then, huh?

    At least they aren't pretending to be democrats in the Liberal Demo - oh.......
    I suppose the LDs would say if they won a majority of Westminster seats that would be their mandate to revoke Article 50, this policy could be attractive to diehard Remainers, especially with Corbyn still refusing to commit to back Remain even if there is EUref2
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Here’s an interesting fact.

    One of the SC judges is married to the former deputy president of the SC who is now retired.

    Of the current judges sitting next week 4 upheld the High Court decision in the GM case , 2 dissented from the majority opinion .

    Looking at the balance adding the new judges to the mix , I’d expect 5 to be more sympathetic to the Scottish Court .

    The 4 judges in the previous GM case and 1 from the new intake .

    The 2 that dissented in the original GM case are very unlikely to support the Scottish Court decision .

    So just for fun , that’s say 5 to 2 .

    I still haven’t read enough about the others yet . Of course these judges view each case on its own merits , I’m merely using their past opinions as a guide and in come cases their writings in law journals etc .

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    The Times headline about Cameron: "I'm sorry, I failed"

    No. You promised a referendum when the LibDems and Labour were intent on not allowing us a voice on the EU.

    You delivered that Referendum. Nothing to apologise for there.

    Maybe deriding your natural supporters as "Little Englanders" when they didn't buy your shite renegotiation. You could apologise to them. But I'm not seeing that....
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PB having gone right down the pan, I shall evacuate the site and not (U) bend to the will of the clearly flushed (toilet) blue team.

    Laters .....

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,004
    edited September 2019

    Now, why would 'Tory sources' want to say that?
    There is that. An Alistair Carmichael denial always fuels speculation though.

    'In an interview with the Press and Journal, Mr Carmichael also denied rumours that the Lib Dems were looking at forming a non-aggression pact with certain Scottish Tories at the next election.
    Tory sources have told the P&J that talks are “ongoing” between the parties to ensure the SNP do not have a “clean sweep” of Westminster seats.

    Similar talks are understood to have taken place at a senior level in Holyrood at the 2016 election.
    But Mr Carmichael said: “We all talk to each other of course, but there’s no pact. It’s not actually necessary, voters in Scotland are pretty good at working that out for themselves who to vote for if they want to remain in the UK.”'
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    JackW said:

    PB having gone right down the pan, I shall evacuate the site and not (U) bend to the will of the clearly flushed (toilet) blue team.

    Laters .....

    JackW, out for a Toilet Duck......
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152

    Now, why would 'Tory sources' want to say that?
    There is that. An Alistair Carmichael denial always fuels speculation though.

    'In an interview with the Press and Journal, Mr Carmichael also denied rumours that the Lib Dems were looking at forming a non-aggression pact with certain Scottish Tories at the next election.
    Tory sources have told the P&J that talks are “ongoing” between the parties to ensure the SNP do not have a “clean sweep” of Westminster seats.

    Similar talks are understood to have taken place at a senior level in Holyrood at the 2016 election.
    But Mr Carmichael said: “We all talk to each other of course, but there’s no pact. It’s not actually necessary, voters in Scotland are pretty good at working that out for themselves who to vote for if they want to remain in the UK.”'
    At the moment I expect the Scottish LDs to come second in seats in Scotland at the next general election but the Scottish Conservatives to stay second on votes in Scotland.

    I expect Scottish Labour to collapse to 4th place on both votes and seats
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Except Boris got his upper second in Classics, not PPE like Cameron
    So they both got degrees in pointless non-subjects?

    Ban hammer from TSE incoming in 3...2...1
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    The LibDems = Bollocks.......
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    So they know better than 17.4m voters then, huh?

    At least they aren't pretending to be democrats in the Liberal Demo - oh.......
    I suppose the LDs would say if they won a majority of Westminster seats that would be their mandate to revoke Article 50, this policy could be attractive to diehard Remainers, especially with Corbyn still refusing to commit to back Remain even if there is EUref2
    80% of Labour members will vote Remain in a EURef2
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
    Your calculation assumes letters are even distributed throughout the alphabet. They aren't.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Except Boris got his upper second in Classics, not PPE like Cameron
    So they both got degrees in pointless non-subjects?

    Ban hammer from TSE incoming in 3...2...1
    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    So they know better than 17.4m voters then, huh?

    At least they aren't pretending to be democrats in the Liberal Demo - oh.......
    I suppose the LDs would say if they won a majority of Westminster seats that would be their mandate to revoke Article 50, this policy could be attractive to diehard Remainers, especially with Corbyn still refusing to commit to back Remain even if there is EUref2
    80% of Labour members will vote Remain in a EURef2
    Yet the leadership may not campaign for it or without any enthusiasm even if they did like 2016
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    Lindsay Hoyle is MPs favoured candidate for next speaker a YouGov survey of 100 MPs finds, Hoyle got 35%, Eleanor Laing was second on 6% and Harriet Harman third with 5%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/12/lindsay-hoyle-mps-favoured-candidate-next-speaker
  • rcs1000 said:



    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.

    Such as setting the normal period of prorogation that would normally take place during the party conference season, allowing for an extra period of, say, 4 sitting days in cases where there has been a change of PM in the interim, or where the duration of the parliament since the previous prorogation has been exceptionally long?

    And if we are going to formalise it, shouldn't a prorogation be forced under some circumstances, to avoid emulating the last 2 years as the longest post war period that didn't see a prorogation?
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    Noo said:

    Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
    Your calculation assumes letters are even distributed throughout the alphabet. They aren't.
    I was Scrabbling for a ballpark figure
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    rcs1000 said:



    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.

    Such as setting the normal period of prorogation that would normally take place during the party conference season, allowing for an extra period of, say, 4 sitting days in cases where there has been a change of PM in the interim, or where the duration of the parliament since the previous prorogation has been exceptionally long?

    And if we are going to formalise it, shouldn't a prorogation be forced under some circumstances, to avoid emulating the last 2 years as the longest post war period that didn't see a prorogation?
    The Party conference season is NOT a prorogation for Parliament. It is a recess and it is voted on every year.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,573
    alednam said:

    But how wide the latitude?
    Here’s how to become a dictator (of the UK)
    1. Make yourself appealing to the small number of UK citizens who are paid up members of your Party at a time when election to its leadership means you’ll become P.M.
    2. Prorogue Parliament at a time and for such period as you find it to be in your interests to govern unfettered.
    3. Have no fear of your prorogation being found illegal. Here you need to rely on the highest Court deciding that there’s no legal question about its propriety.
    4. Have no fear that there might be cries to change the law in view of the manifest democratic impropriety of your prorogation. There’s no need to fear this: it’s simple for you to prevent the law being changed. Only Parliament can change the law, and you can now prorogue Parliament to suit your own purposes. (At this point, the Courts have set a precedent ensuring that this isn’t a judiciable matter.)
    5. Appreciate that if you’d like to govern unfettered for a protracted period, then you only have to prorogue Parliament for a goodly long while.
    6. You might find that a bloody insurrection stands in your way. So you must get the police and the troops on your side. (Bribery might help: you set their pay.)

    And, like Charles I, you will need to find a way of taxing the people without parliament's consent to pay for it all.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    algarkirk said:

    alednam said:

    But how wide the latitude?
    Here’s how to become a dictator (of the UK)
    1. Make yourself appealing to the small number of UK citizens who are paid up members of your Party at a time when election to its leadership means you’ll become P.M.
    2. Prorogue Parliament at a time and for such period as you find it to be in your interests to govern unfettered.
    3. Have no fear of your prorogation being found illegal. Here you need to rely on the highest Court deciding that there’s no legal question about its propriety.
    4. Have no fear that there might be cries to change the law in view of the manifest democratic impropriety of your prorogation. There’s no need to fear this: it’s simple for you to prevent the law being changed. Only Parliament can change the law, and you can now prorogue Parliament to suit your own purposes. (At this point, the Courts have set a precedent ensuring that this isn’t a judiciable matter.)
    5. Appreciate that if you’d like to govern unfettered for a protracted period, then you only have to prorogue Parliament for a goodly long while.
    6. You might find that a bloody insurrection stands in your way. So you must get the police and the troops on your side. (Bribery might help: you set their pay.)

    And, like Charles I, you will need to find a way of taxing the people without parliament's consent to pay for it all.

    Otherwise you end up in deep ship.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    So they know better than 17.4m voters then, huh?

    At least they aren't pretending to be democrats in the Liberal Demo - oh.......
    I suppose the LDs would say if they won a majority of Westminster seats that would be their mandate to revoke Article 50, this policy could be attractive to diehard Remainers, especially with Corbyn still refusing to commit to back Remain even if there is EUref2
    80% of Labour members will vote Remain in a EURef2
    BREXITISM = SOCIALISM! :lol:
  • Noo said:

    Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
    Your calculation assumes letters are even distributed throughout the alphabet. They aren't.
    Indeed in a random distribution using how letters are distributions you'd expect more E, I and other common letters like D, P, M, N etc than X. Yet funnily enough there's only 1 E and 1 I same as the 1 X. There's no D, P, M or N.

    So I think it's close enough to let the calculation stand.
  • rcs1000 said:



    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.

    Such as setting the normal period of prorogation that would normally take place during the party conference season, allowing for an extra period of, say, 4 sitting days in cases where there has been a change of PM in the interim, or where the duration of the parliament since the previous prorogation has been exceptionally long?

    And if we are going to formalise it, shouldn't a prorogation be forced under some circumstances, to avoid emulating the last 2 years as the longest post war period that didn't see a prorogation?
    The Party conference season is NOT a prorogation for Parliament. It is a recess and it is voted on every year.

    rcs1000 said:



    I'm uncomfortable giving the monarch that much power. I think David has it absolutely right: the government should not have the right to prorouge to avoid being No Confidenced, or the like. But at the same time, there will frequently be times when Parliament doesn't need to sit. I would have thought some formalisation of the maximum period of prorogation would be a sensible way forward.

    Such as setting the normal period of prorogation that would normally take place during the party conference season, allowing for an extra period of, say, 4 sitting days in cases where there has been a change of PM in the interim, or where the duration of the parliament since the previous prorogation has been exceptionally long?

    And if we are going to formalise it, shouldn't a prorogation be forced under some circumstances, to avoid emulating the last 2 years as the longest post war period that didn't see a prorogation?
    The Party conference season is NOT a prorogation for Parliament. It is a recess and it is voted on every year.
    Yes but there have been proroguations over what would have been recesses in recent years so not unprecedented.

    From memory Brown did it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Noo said:

    Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
    Your calculation assumes letters are even distributed throughout the alphabet. They aren't.
    Indeed in a random distribution using how letters are distributions you'd expect more E, I and other common letters like D, P, M, N etc than X. Yet funnily enough there's only 1 E and 1 I same as the 1 X. There's no D, P, M or N.

    So I think it's close enough to let the calculation stand.
    The distribution of letters at the beginning and end of words differs from the general frequency. How many words, for example, end in Z, J, Q or V ?

    Pretty big number, though.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    HYUFD said:

    LDs just voted for same sex marriage in NI in first session of their conference just finished on BBC Parliament

    I was about to be impressed that you were watching, then I remembered that you’ll be checking the audience to make sure that all the people you told to go there, actually went.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited September 2019

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Never mind the bollocks.
    Here’s the Lib Dems ?


    With their follow up God Save the Royal Prerogative.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
    Your calculation assumes letters are even distributed throughout the alphabet. They aren't.
    Indeed in a random distribution using how letters are distributions you'd expect more E, I and other common letters like D, P, M, N etc than X. Yet funnily enough there's only 1 E and 1 I same as the 1 X. There's no D, P, M or N.

    So I think it's close enough to let the calculation stand.
    Ok, I've been and done the calculations, using a corpus of English words, assuming each one has an equal chance of being chosen (not an assumption I'm comfortable with, but I can't think of a quick way to weight them -- certainly usage frequencies wouldn't be good either)

    The results are:
    approx 1 in 8016439773687690193159837
    That compares with random letter choices of 26^16 = 1 in 43608742899428874059776

    In other words, given the distribution of letters in English, it's about 200 times less likely to stumble upon BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT than simply pulling random letters out of a bag.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    HYUFD said:



    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)

    Getting a First in Greats probably is tougher than getting a First in PPE. But - and I say this with personal experience - getting a lower class Greats degree is a doddle.

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-49700620
    It was an emergency. what was he supposed to do ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Flanner said:

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.

    It's not kept that well, Flanner, it's just I become unpopular when I point it out.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    The graphic below comes from this reddit article:

    What I, an American, see as the stereotypical parliament of a European country
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    edited September 2019

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Using a word that refers to sex organs to talk about transphobia is a tactic that could easily go tits up.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Noo said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Using a work that refers to sex organs to refer to transphobia is a tactic that could easily go tits up.
    Here’s hoping that ydoetur is out to lunch...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Noo said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Using a work that refers to sex organs to refer to transphobia is a tactic that could easily go tits up.
    Wha-hey! You just had to have a nipple at our punnning contest, didn't you?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Even though I'm Mr Remainy McRemainyface, I don't buy the drug shortage idea. Even a really big drug isn't huge in terms of the actual volume of stuff involved, and we have plenty of expertise in this sector in the UK. Indeed there's a few hundred that have just been laid off from EMA.

    The trouble is all the time we are messing around doing this sort of thing our competitors around the world are using their expertise to come up with new and profitable products, services and ways of doing things. That's sufficiently bad for anyone who voted leave to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    IanB2 said:

    Noo said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Using a work that refers to sex organs to refer to transphobia is a tactic that could easily go tits up.
    Here’s hoping that ydoetur is out to lunch...
    If only you waited, in about three minutes I have to go to a wedding.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    Flanner said:

    HYUFD said:



    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)

    Getting a First in Greats probably is tougher than getting a First in PPE. But - and I say this with personal experience - getting a lower class Greats degree is a doddle.

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.
    Yes it worked for Boris on that front certainly as he became Union President etc but I agree had Cameron studied Greats rather than PPE I doubt he would have got a First either
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    viewcode said:

    The graphic below comes from this reddit article:

    What I, an American, see as the stereotypical parliament of a European country

    Without wanting to be /too/ earnest, what's the problem with being liberal and conservative at the same time?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Never mind the bollocks.
    Here’s the Lib Dems ?


    With their follow up God Save the Royal Prerogative.
    To be immortalised in the film The Great Rock and Roll Swinson.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Ben Stokes is determined to self-destruct.

    I shall go and sing One More Step Along the World I Go wondering how he and Denly have managed to get out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    LDs just voted for same sex marriage in NI in first session of their conference just finished on BBC Parliament

    I was about to be impressed that you were watching, then I remembered that you’ll be checking the audience to make sure that all the people you told to go there, actually went.
    I was certainly scanning the audience for TSE and Richard Navabi (though I have a university friend who is a LD activist and former London Assembly candidate so was also looking out for him too)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Noo said:

    viewcode said:

    The graphic below comes from this reddit article:

    What I, an American, see as the stereotypical parliament of a European country

    Without wanting to be /too/ earnest, what's the problem with being liberal and conservative at the same time?
    It confounds the constitutional conventions of Gilbert and Sullivan ?

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The bottom line I can see is 'nausea caged'.
    Embedded tweets don't show you the full picture.

    If you click on the tweet itself you'll see this.


    Whether deliberate or not, that is funny!
    The chances of it being accidental are 2^a very large number.
    26^16. Forty sextillion to one
    Your calculation assumes letters are even distributed throughout the alphabet. They aren't.
    Indeed in a random distribution using how letters are distributions you'd expect more E, I and other common letters like D, P, M, N etc than X. Yet funnily enough there's only 1 E and 1 I same as the 1 X. There's no D, P, M or N.

    So I think it's close enough to let the calculation stand.
    Ok, I've been and done the calculations, using a corpus of English words, assuming each one has an equal chance of being chosen (not an assumption I'm comfortable with, but I can't think of a quick way to weight them -- certainly usage frequencies wouldn't be good either)

    The results are:
    approx 1 in 8016439773687690193159837
    That compares with random letter choices of 26^16 = 1 in 43608742899428874059776

    In other words, given the distribution of letters in English, it's about 200 times less likely to stumble upon BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT than simply pulling random letters out of a bag.
    The marginal effort exceeds the marginal enlightenment by some margin, there.
  • Nigelb said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Never mind the bollocks.
    Here’s the Lib Dems ?


    With their follow up God Save the Royal Prerogative.
    And then Submission when Jo Swinson is next PM?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    ydoethur said:

    Ben Stokes is determined to self-destruct.

    I shall go and sing One More Step Along the World I Go wondering how he and Denly have managed to get out.

    An extraordinary statistic:
    in tests, Denly averages 15 in the first innings and over 40 in the second.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Even though I'm Mr Remainy McRemainyface, I don't buy the drug shortage idea. Even a really big drug isn't huge in terms of the actual volume of stuff involved, and we have plenty of expertise in this sector in the UK. Indeed there's a few hundred that have just been laid off from EMA.

    The trouble is all the time we are messing around doing this sort of thing our competitors around the world are using their expertise to come up with new and profitable products, services and ways of doing things. That's sufficiently bad for anyone who voted leave to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
    It's about transport routes getting gummed up. If traffic isn't flowing through ports, stuff runs out. You can't ramp up domestic production of everything that could run out. So if there's miles of queues at the border, medicines are just one thing that gets delayed.
    In short, it's not about the product itself (other things will be in short supply), it's about the seriousness of supply problems. Nobody will die if we run out of tomatoes for a few months, but people will definitely die if certain drugs becomes scarce.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Noo said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Even though I'm Mr Remainy McRemainyface, I don't buy the drug shortage idea. Even a really big drug isn't huge in terms of the actual volume of stuff involved, and we have plenty of expertise in this sector in the UK. Indeed there's a few hundred that have just been laid off from EMA.

    The trouble is all the time we are messing around doing this sort of thing our competitors around the world are using their expertise to come up with new and profitable products, services and ways of doing things. That's sufficiently bad for anyone who voted leave to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
    It's about transport routes getting gummed up. If traffic isn't flowing through ports, stuff runs out. You can't ramp up domestic production of everything that could run out. So if there's miles of queues at the border, medicines are just one thing that gets delayed.
    In short, it's not about the product itself (other things will be in short supply), it's about the seriousness of supply problems. Nobody will die if we run out of tomatoes for a few months, but people will definitely die if certain drugs becomes scarce.
    Yet no one screams about the delays and shortages right now.

    I posted earlier this week of 2 actual examples of medicines not being available pre Brexit - others have posted others.

  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Nigelb said:

    Noo said:

    viewcode said:

    The graphic below comes from this reddit article:

    What I, an American, see as the stereotypical parliament of a European country

    Without wanting to be /too/ earnest, what's the problem with being liberal and conservative at the same time?
    It confounds the constitutional conventions of Gilbert and Sullivan ?

    Things are seldom what they seem...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    ydoethur said:

    Noo said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Using a work that refers to sex organs to refer to transphobia is a tactic that could easily go tits up.
    Wha-hey! You just had to have a nipple at our punnning contest, didn't you?
    Is this punning contest over, or can I add a pudendum?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Flanner said:

    HYUFD said:



    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)

    Getting a First in Greats probably is tougher than getting a First in PPE. But - and I say this with personal experience - getting a lower class Greats degree is a doddle.

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.
    Yes it worked for Boris on that front certainly as he became Union President etc but I agree had Cameron studied Greats rather than PPE I doubt he would have got a First either
    I wonder whether Cameron would have managed a First in the 1950s or 60s. An interesting article in the Independent - written in 1999 - was titled ' What happened to the Oxbridge Third?'. It pointed out that back in 1960 30% of Oxbridge graduates came out with a Third class degree - but by 1999 a mere 5% did so. Doubtless the figure today is circa 3%. Rampant grade inflation has clearly affected all institutions
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Flanner said:

    HYUFD said:



    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)

    Getting a First in Greats probably is tougher than getting a First in PPE. But - and I say this with personal experience - getting a lower class Greats degree is a doddle.

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.
    Yes it worked for Boris on that front certainly as he became Union President etc but I agree had Cameron studied Greats rather than PPE I doubt he would have got a First either
    I wonder whether Cameron would have managed a First in the 1950s or 60s. An interesting article in the Independent - written in 1999 - was titled ' What happened to the Oxbridge Third?'. It pointed out that back in 1960 30% of Oxbridge graduates came out with a Third class degree - but by 1999 a mere 5% did so. Doubtless the figure today is circa 3%. Rampant grade inflation has clearly affected all institutions
    I rather think it's at least partly because Oxford is less of a social finishing school and networking centre for the upper classes than it used to be (along its role as an Anglican seminary). People are expected to work nowadays, lest their universities fail to meet the bureaucratic targets set, ironically, by the governments of the last couple of decades.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Floater said:

    Noo said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Even though I'm Mr Remainy McRemainyface, I don't buy the drug shortage idea. Even a really big drug isn't huge in terms of the actual volume of stuff involved, and we have plenty of expertise in this sector in the UK. Indeed there's a few hundred that have just been laid off from EMA.

    The trouble is all the time we are messing around doing this sort of thing our competitors around the world are using their expertise to come up with new and profitable products, services and ways of doing things. That's sufficiently bad for anyone who voted leave to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
    It's about transport routes getting gummed up. If traffic isn't flowing through ports, stuff runs out. You can't ramp up domestic production of everything that could run out. So if there's miles of queues at the border, medicines are just one thing that gets delayed.
    In short, it's not about the product itself (other things will be in short supply), it's about the seriousness of supply problems. Nobody will die if we run out of tomatoes for a few months, but people will definitely die if certain drugs becomes scarce.
    Yet no one screams about the delays and shortages right now.

    I posted earlier this week of 2 actual examples of medicines not being available pre Brexit - others have posted others.

    You're at liberty to complain about shortages if you see them. My partner says that one of the three medicines needed has experienced some minor shortages meaning we had to accept half the normal amount and go back a few weeks later for the other half. That was not an interruption in supply for us. If you say there have been interruptions elsewhere, I take your word for it.
  • Floater said:

    Noo said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Noo said:

    Aaaand the medication my partner needs is on there.
    Great. Thanks a lot, Brexiters.
    My blood pressure pills too, though there are substitutes for that (though sudden switches of demand can cause secondary shortages).

    The most problematic ones to me look to be Metformin, Prednisolone and Sodium Valproate. All are frequently prescribed and are not easily substituted.

    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Even though I'm Mr Remainy McRemainyface, I don't buy the drug shortage idea. Even a really big drug isn't huge in terms of the actual volume of stuff involved, and we have plenty of expertise in this sector in the UK. Indeed there's a few hundred that have just been laid off from EMA.

    The trouble is all the time we are messing around doing this sort of thing our competitors around the world are using their expertise to come up with new and profitable products, services and ways of doing things. That's sufficiently bad for anyone who voted leave to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
    It's about transport routes getting gummed up. If traffic isn't flowing through ports, stuff runs out. You can't ramp up domestic production of everything that could run out. So if there's miles of queues at the border, medicines are just one thing that gets delayed.
    In short, it's not about the product itself (other things will be in short supply), it's about the seriousness of supply problems. Nobody will die if we run out of tomatoes for a few months, but people will definitely die if certain drugs becomes scarce.
    Yet no one screams about the delays and shortages right now.

    I posted earlier this week of 2 actual examples of medicines not being available pre Brexit - others have posted others.

    The pick n mix racist takes an equally irrational line in relation to drug shortages. Shortages that would be attributable to Brexit are tickety-boo, because, well, because. There may be some compelling reason why existing shortages mean that seeking out new causes of shortages is a good idea, but so far the death cult Leavers have failed to articulate it.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Carnyx said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Flanner said:

    HYUFD said:



    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)

    Getting a First in Greats probably is tougher than getting a First in PPE. But - and I say this with personal experience - getting a lower class Greats degree is a doddle.

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.
    Yes it worked for Boris on that front certainly as he became Union President etc but I agree had Cameron studied Greats rather than PPE I doubt he would have got a First either
    I wonder whether Cameron would have managed a First in the 1950s or 60s. An interesting article in the Independent - written in 1999 - was titled ' What happened to the Oxbridge Third?'. It pointed out that back in 1960 30% of Oxbridge graduates came out with a Third class degree - but by 1999 a mere 5% did so. Doubtless the figure today is circa 3%. Rampant grade inflation has clearly affected all institutions
    I rather think it's at least partly because Oxford is less of a social finishing school and networking centre for the upper classes than it used to be (along its role as an Anglican seminary). People are expected to work nowadays, lest their universities fail to meet the bureaucratic targets set, ironically, by the governments of the last couple of decades.
    Perhaps some truth in that, but far more Oxbridge Firsts are being awarded nowadays and that itself doubtless reflects what has happened elsewhere. If other universities now give far more Firsts than 30 or 40 years ago, it must be difficult for Oxbridge to resist that trend. I do sometimes wonder whether back in the 1940s and 50s gaining a place at Oxbridge was as challenging as is the case today. Obviously far fewer would-be students were in the market anyway - at least as far as the state sector was concerned.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Noo said:

    The Lib Dems have got their branding sorted.

    https://twitter.com/english_yl/status/1172819112889868289?s=21

    Using a work that refers to sex organs to refer to transphobia is a tactic that could easily go tits up.
    Here’s hoping that ydoetur is out to lunch...
    If only you waited, in about three minutes I have to go to a wedding.
    Indeed. His ejaculation was somewhat premature.

    :):):)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Floater said:

    Noo said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:
    In that list, I take Amlodipine, Ramipril , Metformin. I think all are produced in the UK. So I am surprised. I did not see Gliclazide or Dapagliflozin. Atorvastatin is also not there.
    Bristol Laboratories manufacture Metformin in the UK. I suppose the issue is whether they have the capacity to make up the gap.

    Feedstocks could be an issue too, I suppose. Many of these are imported.
    Even though I'm Mr Remainy McRemainyface, I don't buy the drug shortage idea. Even a really big drug isn't huge in terms of the actual volume of stuff involved, and we have plenty of expertise in this sector in the UK. Indeed there's a few hundred that have just been laid off from EMA.

    The trouble is all the time we are messing around doing this sort of thing our competitors around the world are using their expertise to come up with new and profitable products, services and ways of doing things. That's sufficiently bad for anyone who voted leave to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
    It's about transport routes getting gummed up. If traffic isn't flowing through ports, stuff runs out. You can't ramp up domestic production of everything that could run out. So if there's miles of queues at the border, medicines are just one thing that gets delayed.
    In short, it's not about the product itself (other things will be in short supply), it's about the seriousness of supply problems. Nobody will die if we run out of tomatoes for a few months, but people will definitely die if certain drugs becomes scarce.
    Yet no one screams about the delays and shortages right now.

    I posted earlier this week of 2 actual examples of medicines not being available pre Brexit - others have posted others.

    The pick n mix racist takes an equally irrational line in relation to drug shortages. Shortages that would be attributable to Brexit are tickety-boo, because, well, because. There may be some compelling reason why existing shortages mean that seeking out new causes of shortages is a good idea, but so far the death cult Leavers have failed to articulate it.
    It is really quite extraordinary that we are talking about medicine shortages at all simply because of a desire to have a disorderly withdrawal from the EU to meet an arbitrary deadline imposed on us by others.

    No price is too high, it seems, to save Boris's face.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Cyclefree said:


    No price is too high, it seems, to save Boris's face.

    Is it a face really worth saving?
  • HYUFD said:

    LDs to vote today on replacing their previous policy of EUref2 and campaigning for Remain with one of revoking Article 50 and scrapping Brexit if they win a majority.

    So they know better than 17.4m voters then, huh?

    At least they aren't pretending to be democrats in the Liberal Demo - oh.......
    If they get a fair proportion of 16.1m voters they'll be quite happy.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    Miss Cyclefree, the ego of Boris Johnson is the sun around which his entire being and all his actions revolve.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    A plausible explanation of the Cummings "game theory". Presumably the EU will say, No. At that point we will either crash out with Johnson trying to win an election on a manifesto of "we did it and isn't as bad as the Black Death", Johnson caves into the EU and tries to push a sub-May Deal through parliament or there is further delay.

    I suspect delay.


    https://twitter.com/BEERG/status/1172727318407798784
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Flanner said:

    HYUFD said:



    Pointless or not I would say Classics is a harder degree at Oxford than PPE (especially if you majored in the politics rather than economics bit of the latter as Cameron did)

    Getting a First in Greats probably is tougher than getting a First in PPE. But - and I say this with personal experience - getting a lower class Greats degree is a doddle.

    One of Britain's best kept secrets is how much of the Greats course is a rerun of A level Latin and Greek -or how relatively easy A level Latin is for those brought up as Catholics or educated (as Johnson was) in a multilingual school. So it's perfect for someone with a high IQ, a bent for languages, no interest in a First and a determination not to waste valuable student time on academic work.
    That is true of mods, but not so much in Greats, because results in the Greats translation papers are heavily discounted (a straight A is demoted to a straight B, and so on). Experto crede.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    FF43 said:

    A plausible explanation of the Cummings "game theory". Presumably the EU will say, No. At that point we will either crash out with Johnson trying to win an election on a manifesto of "we did it and isn't as bad as the Black Death", Johnson caves into the EU and tries to push a sub-May Deal through parliament or there is further delay.

    I suspect delay.


    https://twitter.com/BEERG/status/1172727318407798784

    If this happens, I need to point out that:

    1) I pointed out that for some politicians "failing and blaming" was a deliberate policy intended to make us personally poorer, make them personally wealthier, encourage hatred, and use that hatred to wage a culture war.
    2) I pointed it out beforehand.

    I will be pleased to be proven wrong, of course.
This discussion has been closed.