Very small cross party group. I applaud some of them (those who were genuine and pushed for a deal back when it was viable, not those posturing now for the sake of it like, say, Kinnock), but it is too late.
In number 10 there is a whiteboard. It has the master strategy grid.
Thursday: Reenact Police Academy BJ scene with BJ Friday: Enter public spat with KFC
The mind boggles what the weekend holds. I suspect Cummings has a wager with Boris to see how long loyal Conservatives will go along defending this stuff.
"Public spat" with KFC? It's Twitter 'atting' FFS!
Its also with KFCs social media team, I doubt the board have met to declare war on Boris
In number 10 there is a whiteboard. It has the master strategy grid.
Thursday: Reenact Police Academy BJ scene with BJ Friday: Enter public spat with KFC
The mind boggles what the weekend holds. I suspect Cummings has a wager with Boris to see how long loyal Conservatives will go along defending this stuff.
"Public spat" with KFC? It's Twitter 'atting' FFS!
The chicken thing is getting very desparate now. Sad.
It's not gonna hold up and will be forgotten about once an election is underway. It's really more about trying to goad labour into calling a pre 31st election. Luckily so far it doesn't seem to be working.
It can only be worse for Boris to have an election post 31st after a brexit extension, I can't see how it can help him. So why call an election before then? It's been shown repeatedly that not only do the public especially want an election or think it will help, but that they also think poorly of everyone in Parliament already, its not like Corbyn is sullying his amazing reputation right now.
I wonder who Nigel Farage or Arran Banks would support if it were Russia England? I am sure it would be England
Salmond really failed to read the room when he took a job with RT. He's been a pretty sound political operator in his time, but that was so stupid. Farage with his appearances on RT too, but he tends to make grave mistakes more often so it's less of a surprise.
The chicken thing is getting very desparate now. Sad.
It's not gonna hold up and will be forgotten about once an election is underway. It's really more about trying to goad labour into calling a pre 31st election. Luckily so far it doesn't seem to be working.
It can only be worse for Boris to have an election post 31st after a brexit extension, I can't see how it can help him. So why call an election before then? It's been shown repeatedly that not only do the public especially want an election or think it will help, but that they also think poorly of everyone in Parliament already, its not like Corbyn is sullying his amazing reputation right now.
Boris isn't going to request an extension. However he achieves that, legally or by daring them to hold him in contempt, hes banking on that being the hook on which the electorate hang their hats. Boris for brexit vs parliament for delay and no brexit The chicken thing is as you say sad and pathetic
Very small cross party group. I applaud some of them (those who were genuine and pushed for a deal back when it was viable, not those posturing now for the sake of it like, say, Kinnock), but it is too late.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
Tories election hopes crushed, they've lost the KFC customer vote, the people who are shocked by the insult 'big girls blouse' vote, and the people who hate posh people vote, all in the space of a week. Thank God they haven't insulted readers of The Morning Star yet, or I really would fear for their base.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
If only we had a decent example of a major national campaign in which the side whose comms were roundly mocked came out on top because it was actually better connected with the public.
It's this weird crusade of the foreign minister Taro Kono, he's a massive tit. Everyone will ignore it except the people who make passports, and for the next 10 years half the people will have passports written one way and half the people will have passports written another.
Tories election hopes crushed, they've lost the KFC customer vote, the people who are shocked by the insult 'big girls blouse' vote, and the people who hate posh people vote, all in the space of a week. Thank God they haven't insulted readers of The Morning Star yet, or I really would fear for their base.
And people who value knowledge of the wholesale price of fish and animal husbandry
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
She would need to sack her current one. Unlikely.
If the Conservatives VONC their own Prime Minister I see no reason why Her Majesty shouldn't take them at their word. I believe Her Majesty would not be best pleased with Boris and the Conservatives playing fast and loose with such conventions.
Exit Boris enter AN OTHER.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
Would Corbyn take the 14 days, or just VONC himself immediately?
“Boris Johnson is nothing like Winston Churchill. I don’t think anyone has called Boris a diplomat or statesman. We all know the pluses and minuses, everyone he has worked for says the same thing: he writes beautifully [but he’s] deeply unreliable.” He can see no “helpful analogy” between the two leaders. “Winston Churchill was like Winston Churchill because of his experiences in life. Boris Johnson’s experience in life is telling a lot of porkies about the European Union in Brussels and then becoming prime minister."
Good on you Fatty! (not so fat as when I met him a few years ago)
I really don't understand this Kinnock. He is so useless. We have REMAIN in our grasp. Why should we let it go ?
His seat is 60% leave
Yvette Cooper's seat is 69% Leave. There are many Northern Labour MPs with similar Leave %. It does not mean they all vote Labour. In fact, very few do.
Ftpa states parliament must vote an act of confidence in a new proposed PM. They can't if parliament is prorogued. It's not possible and bj wont recall them to do it.
I don't think that's right, I think they vote confidence in the newly *appointed* PM (or rather his/her government).
So: 1) VONC 2) Queen's advisors take soundings about who else would be able to get confidence (usually outgoing PM's advice is good but in this case he may be playing silly buggers) 3) Queen appoints somebody 4) Parliament votes confidence in them, or doesn't so goto (2) ...until time is up and whichever failed PM is sitting on the chair when the music stops schedules an election
Non-bonkers people of pb, have I got that right???
Right.
Yep basically but the form is that normally she would not appoint anyone if there is doubt they can carry the House. So it is entirely possible she could be advised that no.one has the clear support of the House and she should not appoint anyone.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
Who decides which VoC will be accepted for a vote ? Can anybody put up a motion ?
Well, it's been fun this week. It has been good to see that the opposition parties finally agreed on who they wanted to lead their TAND administration, though Boris Johnson as hostage PM was something of a surprise answer to everyone. Let's hope they don't overplay, as Boris will be looking for a wriggle (Kinnock amendment) and one would imagine he is after a better way out than the Colonel Gaddafi approach he advocated yesterday.
That said, if Boris could be constrained into bringing back (and maybe even passing!) the softer than May WA deal of the Kinnock amendment, I think I would weep at the wonder of it. Although, I'm not sure whether all the documentation and basis for agreement actually exists to underpin the Kinnock amendment, can anyone enlighten?
“Boris Johnson is nothing like Winston Churchill. I don’t think anyone has called Boris a diplomat or statesman. We all know the pluses and minuses, everyone he has worked for says the same thing: he writes beautifully [but he’s] deeply unreliable.” He can see no “helpful analogy” between the two leaders. “Winston Churchill was like Winston Churchill because of his experiences in life. Boris Johnson’s experience in life is telling a lot of porkies about the European Union in Brussels and then becoming prime minister."
Good on you Fatty! (not so fat as when I met him a few years ago)
That article does require someone to reply with 'you ok hun?' Though
I don't think so, they quote a reader poll of a right-wing newspaper, and get 59% in favour (think "a Daily Telegraph poll of its readers found..."), and it's not something people are really interested in so they'd be easily swayed by the arguments made in the paper.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
Of course he's going to be feted by the opposition if he rips into the government. That's only human nature.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
That backs what I said. If no alternative government is found that can secure confidence of the house then election.
Ftpa states parliament must vote an act of confidence in a new proposed PM. They can't if parliament is prorogued. It's not possible and bj wont recall them to do it.
I don't think that's right, I think they vote confidence in the newly *appointed* PM (or rather his/her government).
So: 1) VONC 2) Queen's advisors take soundings about who else would be able to get confidence (usually outgoing PM's advice is good but in this case he may be playing silly buggers) 3) Queen appoints somebody 4) Parliament votes confidence in them, or doesn't so goto (2) ...until time is up and whichever failed PM is sitting on the chair when the music stops schedules an election
Non-bonkers people of pb, have I got that right???
Right.
Yep basically but the form is that normally she would not appoint anyone if there is doubt they can carry the House. So it is entirely possible she could be advised that no.one has the clear support of the House and she should not appoint anyone.
That isn't however tenable so in that circumstance Boris would have to stay asPM.
Regarding the “girly swot” thing. I doubt if it will make any difference to the perception of Mr. Johnson by the much vaunted “north-midlands” vote. Those who think he is a foolish toff will think their perception is correct and those who see him as a jolly japester likewise. Is anybody at all really surprised at this revelation? Plus Mr. Cameron was deeply disliked and seen as a phoney “call me Dave” politician.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
I really don't understand this Kinnock. He is so useless. We have REMAIN in our grasp. Why should we let it go ?
His seat is 60% leave
Yvette Cooper's seat is 69% Leave. There are many Northern Labour MPs with similar Leave %. It does not mean they all vote Labour. In fact, very few do.
Sure, but where's the harm in making a futile gesture?
Ftpa states parliament must vote an act of confidence in a new proposed PM. They can't if parliament is prorogued. It's not possible and bj wont recall them to do it.
I don't think that's right, I think they vote confidence in the newly *appointed* PM (or rather his/her government).
So: 1) VONC 2) Queen's advisors take soundings about who else would be able to get confidence (usually outgoing PM's advice is good but in this case he may be playing silly buggers) 3) Queen appoints somebody 4) Parliament votes confidence in them, or doesn't so goto (2) ...until time is up and whichever failed PM is sitting on the chair when the music stops schedules an election
Non-bonkers people of pb, have I got that right???
Right.
Yep basically but the form is that normally she would not appoint anyone if there is doubt they can carry the House. So it is entirely possible she could be advised that no.one has the clear support of the House and she should not appoint anyone.
Yes. And the opposition would have to work fast to achieve everything within two weeks of the VONC.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
Criticising Boris for chucking Sir Nicholas out at the same time as chanelling his grandfather was a particularly absurd piece of twitter idiocy. Who know these people were such big fans of the hereditary principle?
The chicken thing is getting very desparate now. Sad.
It's not gonna hold up and will be forgotten about once an election is underway. It's really more about trying to goad labour into calling a pre 31st election. Luckily so far it doesn't seem to be working.
It can only be worse for Boris to have an election post 31st after a brexit extension, I can't see how it can help him. So why call an election before then? It's been shown repeatedly that not only do the public especially want an election or think it will help, but that they also think poorly of everyone in Parliament already, its not like Corbyn is sullying his amazing reputation right now.
Boris isn't going to request an extension. However he achieves that, legally or by daring them to hold him in contempt, hes banking on that being the hook on which the electorate hang their hats. Boris for brexit vs parliament for delay and no brexit The chicken thing is as you say sad and pathetic
Well he could be VONCed in that case. Whether he extends or someone else pushes the button like Corbyn or Ken Clarke, he will have failed to have us leave on October 31st. After that it will depend how forgiving Brexit Party supporters are of him for trying his best, or whether it will be the final proof that you can only trust Farage on Brexit. Could go either way of course but seems better odds for Labour than a pre brexit election where Boris can more easily appeal to BXP supporters that it's their one last chance for brexit.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
Who decides which VoC will be accepted for a vote ? Can anybody put up a motion ?
The LotO has precedence in tabling a VoNC. The LibDems attempted some months back and the Speaker refused the motion. The government could use their own time to VoNC themselves should the Speaker determine the motion was in order.
I don't think so, they quote a reader poll of a right-wing newspaper, and get 59% in favour (think "a Daily Telegraph poll of its readers found..."), and it's not something people are really interested in so they'd be easily swayed by the arguments made in the paper.
Was it a poll of their readers or a poll in that paper? If it's the later, it can be dismissed, but we don't dismiss polls just because of what newspaper they are published in.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
Of course he's going to be feted by the opposition if he rips into the government. That's only human nature.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
What newly appointed PM? There won't be one.
We don't know what's going to happen, and frankly anyone who pretends they do is being daft.
I am explaining how it would be possible for a newly appointed PM to obtain a VOC despite parliament having been prorogued.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
She would need to sack her current one. Unlikely.
If the Conservatives VONC their own Prime Minister I see no reason why Her Majesty shouldn't take them at their word. I believe Her Majesty would not be best pleased with Boris and the Conservatives playing fast and loose with such conventions.
Exit Boris enter AN OTHER.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
Would Corbyn take the 14 days, or just VONC himself immediately?
Corbyn wouldn't get in. He won't be called for unless he demonstrates he can command the house.
I don't think so, they quote a reader poll of a right-wing newspaper, and get 59% in favour (think "a Daily Telegraph poll of its readers found..."), and it's not something people are really interested in so they'd be easily swayed by the arguments made in the paper.
Was it a poll of their readers or a poll in that paper? If it's the later, it can be dismissed, but we don't dismiss polls just because of what newspaper they are published in.
I'm just going by the linked article but it says a poll of their readers.
I don't think so, they quote a reader poll of a right-wing newspaper, and get 59% in favour (think "a Daily Telegraph poll of its readers found..."), and it's not something people are really interested in so they'd be easily swayed by the arguments made in the paper.
Was it a poll of their readers or a poll in that paper? If it's the later, it can be dismissed, but we don't dismiss polls just because of what newspaper they are published in.
I'm just going by the linked article but it says a poll of their readers.
Ah, thanks. I would have no hope of tracking down the source, or even interpreting the article had I found it.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
She would need to sack her current one. Unlikely.
If the Conservatives VONC their own Prime Minister I see no reason why Her Majesty shouldn't take them at their word. I believe Her Majesty would not be best pleased with Boris and the Conservatives playing fast and loose with such conventions.
Exit Boris enter AN OTHER.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
Would Corbyn take the 14 days, or just VONC himself immediately?
Corbyn wouldn't get in. He won't be called for unless he demonstrates he can command the house.
What happens if Boris resigns then and there's no alternative? Can the Queen herself recommend an election?
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
That backs what I said. If no alternative government is found that can secure confidence of the house then election.
The point being that the Opposition has the scope and numbers to advise the Queen through channels that AN OTHER has the prospect of confidence and will seek the approval of the HoC and thus prevent Boris from having his general election in October which is what the Opposition desire.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
Of course he's going to be feted by the opposition if he rips into the government. That's only human nature.
It's idiot nature.
Interestingly he was quite chummy with Mugabe in a visit in 2017 apparently.
When the Government comes back from being prorogued for the Queen's Speech on the 14th October, there is then a period of debate of that Queen's Speech. Anyone know - can a VONC be heard in that period during which the speech is being debated? Or does the Queen's speech take priority over all other business?
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
What newly appointed PM? There won't be one.
We don't know what's going to happen, and frankly anyone who pretends they do is being daft.
I am explaining how it would be possible for a newly appointed PM to obtain a VOC despite parliament having been prorogued.
Yes but you haven't explained how a new PM gets appointed. A VONC does not automatically result in the PM leaving Downing Street or a new one arriving.
FTPA geeks - re: my last couple of exchanges with Big G.
Do you agree Boris has "14 days protection" from the FTPA?
It looks to me as if that's just the deadline for him or anyone reconstituting an administration before an election's called (ie *anyone* can seek confidence in that period and end the process).
As dyedwoolie said, prorogation may make the point moot anyway.. but it would be interesting to know how swiftly a subsequent VOC could happen in practice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
She would need to sack her current one. Unlikely.
If the Conservatives VONC their own Prime Minister I see no reason why Her Majesty shouldn't take them at their word. I believe Her Majesty would not be best pleased with Boris and the Conservatives playing fast and loose with such conventions.
Exit Boris enter AN OTHER.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
Would Corbyn take the 14 days, or just VONC himself immediately?
Corbyn wouldn't get in. He won't be called for unless he demonstrates he can command the house.
What happens if Boris resigns then and there's no alternative? Can the Queen herself recommend an election?
No. There will always be an alternative.
It’ll be the LOTO first and if that doesn’t look likely she’ll take “soundings”, which means the opposition parties and rebels will agree a compromise candidate.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
That backs what I said. If no alternative government is found that can secure confidence of the house then election.
The point being that the Opposition has the scope and numbers to advise the Queen through channels that AN OTHER has the prospect of confidence and will seek the approval of the HoC and thus prevent Boris from having his general election in October which is what the Opposition desire.
Only if AN OTHER can command a majority. If they can so be it.
Oh the outrage, the humanity, he used the phrase girly! The woke generation are screaming to the sky and weeping wounded tears at the horrors of it all It really didn't require an intervention Jo, fauxrage is not a vote winner
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
What newly appointed PM? There won't be one.
We don't know what's going to happen, and frankly anyone who pretends they do is being daft.
I am explaining how it would be possible for a newly appointed PM to obtain a VOC despite parliament having been prorogued.
Yes but you haven't explained how a new PM gets appointed. A VONC does not automatically result in the PM leaving Downing Street or a new one arriving.
Sorry, I'm not going to waste time explaining yet again to you how a prime minister is appointed in the UK. I think you know that very well.
Love it. On Rees Mogg: "He is an absolute fraud, he is a living example of what a moderately cut double-breasted suit and a decent tie can do with an ultra-posh voice and a bit of ginger stuck up his arse. You do not behave like that as leader of the House.” Both men went to Eton but Sir Nicholas says Rees-Mogg’s behaviour has nothing to do with his school. “I thought it was bloody bad manners and he of all people should know better. He has had all the advantages and frankly nanny made a serious bish. I wanted to kick him firmly in the arse and say, ‘What the hell do you think you are playing at? Sit up!’ ” His speech in the Brexit debate was “the lowest form of student union hackery, insolence and bad manners”.
I love how Nick Soames is now being heralded by the left as some paragon of virtue, when in the past they have viewed him with contempt as a bed-blocker with old-fashioned views. His name isn't mentioned now without "grandson of Winston Churchill" added on the end. A distinctly average politician, regardless of who his grandfather was.
Criticising Boris for chucking Sir Nicholas out at the same time as chanelling his grandfather was a particularly absurd piece of twitter idiocy. Who know these people were such big fans of the hereditary principle?
Asking the question just shows an ignorance on your part of how the media works. It has nothing to do with the hereditary principle.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
Who decides which VoC will be accepted for a vote ? Can anybody put up a motion ?
The LotO has precedence in tabling a VoNC. The LibDems attempted some months back and the Speaker refused the motion. The government could use their own time to VoNC themselves should the Speaker determine the motion was in order.
Thanks, Jack. But I was talking about a VoC. Can anyone submit a motion ?
Oh the outrage, the humanity, he used the phrase girly! The woke generation are screaming to the sky and weeping wounded tears at the horrors of it all It really didn't require an intervention Jo, fauxrage is not a vote winner
I'm not offended or outraged about it, it just shows how much of a prat Boris is that he immediately jumps to puerile insults even on a bloody memo. And you're wrong, fauxrage is a winner, which is why people do it all the time, leaping on any minor wording use or creatively misinterpreting what was said as needed. It pleases their votes, and left and right do it.
Oh the outrage, the humanity, he used the phrase girly! The woke generation are screaming to the sky and weeping wounded tears at the horrors of it all It really didn't require an intervention Jo, fauxrage is not a vote winner
The woke generation are also locking girls out of school and calling the police on them because they want to wear skirts.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
That backs what I said. If no alternative government is found that can secure confidence of the house then election.
The point being that the Opposition has the scope and numbers to advise the Queen through channels that AN OTHER has the prospect of confidence and will seek the approval of the HoC and thus prevent Boris from having his general election in October which is what the Opposition desire.
I think the method if Boris doesn't tell the Queen to ask for Corbyn is soundings. Get your people to talk to relevant Privy Counsellors, to Jo, to Ken, to Mr Speaker. I'm not sure how such advice to the Queen is collated and finalised, but my understanding is there are methods, ex-Boris, to decide this.
Convention is VONC leads to a General Election. FTPA just adds a 14 day cooling off period to that.
I refer you to the relevant para of the Government Cabinet Manual :
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
Who decides which VoC will be accepted for a vote ? Can anybody put up a motion ?
The LotO has precedence in tabling a VoNC. The LibDems attempted some months back and the Speaker refused the motion. The government could use their own time to VoNC themselves should the Speaker determine the motion was in order.
Thanks, Jack. But I was talking about a VoC. Can anyone submit a motion ?
Callaghan submitted VoC in his own government twice.
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
What newly appointed PM? There won't be one.
We don't know what's going to happen, and frankly anyone who pretends they do is being daft.
I am explaining how it would be possible for a newly appointed PM to obtain a VOC despite parliament having been prorogued.
Yes but you haven't explained how a new PM gets appointed. A VONC does not automatically result in the PM leaving Downing Street or a new one arriving.
Sorry, I'm not going to waste time explaining yet again to you how a prime minister is appointed in the UK. I think you know that very well.
I do know. The existing PM remains in situ until soundings demonstrate that someone else definitely can command the house. See 1979 and 2010.
On girliness: during the Conservative leadership election, one or two were offended and outraged by Hunt calling on Johnson to 'man up' and face him in earlier debates.
That quote by Boris of David Cameron that he was a “girly swot” has increased my opinion of him.
He means he did some work. Boris sees that as a negative.
He also seems to have some Billy Bunter attitudes to women, which explains a lot.
Boris, who has boobs and quotes Cicero, called someone a "girly swot"?
It's also that he applied the name to someone who has the reputation, fairly or otherwise, of being an essay crisis merchant (in Oxford undergraduese - Anglice, last minute panic worker).
I don't think Boris will break the law, but he's not going to extend either. So it's either resignation or some other cunning plan that no-one has thought of.
I don't think Boris will break the law, but he's not going to extend either. So it's either resignation or some other cunning plan that no-one has thought of.
The subject of a government calling a vote of no confidence in itself to game the rules was discussed during the debate over the FTPA .
And a certain Mark Harper at the time called it unconstitutional !
It is however perfectly legal , these worries were dismissed at the time as negligible because politically it was expected that the public fall out would put governments off doing this but we don’t live in normal times .
I think the issue is whether the motion derived from the FTPA is amendable . It does fall under a substantive motion so ordinarily that is amendable .
This when you look at it though feels a bit strange because surely the government could amend it to nullify the legality if it wanted to remain in power .
There seems to be a lack of clarity as to what the exact situation is re amendments .
Boris will give notice that Parliament is prorogued at the end of the VONC.
Prorogation does not prevent the Queen appointing a new Prime Minister.
But the statutory process under the FTPA of getting to a new PM will have been stalled by prorogation.....
This question asked in the Lords on 3 September is relevant:
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.
Yeah, she might be advised by her ministers not to recall Parliament, but she’d be within her rights to do so.
The answer was that it's not possible to recall parliament once it's been prorogued, but it is possible to start the new session at an earlier date than previously announced.
I apologise, liberal use of the word "recall" there!
OK, but the substantive point is that at the point at which bringing back parliament became relevant, the prime minister with the power to advise the Queen would be the newly appointed one, not Boris Johnson.
What newly appointed PM? There won't be one.
We don't know what's going to happen, and frankly anyone who pretends they do is being daft.
I am explaining how it would be possible for a newly appointed PM to obtain a VOC despite parliament having been prorogued.
Yes but you haven't explained how a new PM gets appointed. A VONC does not automatically result in the PM leaving Downing Street or a new one arriving.
Sorry, I'm not going to waste time explaining yet again to you how a prime minister is appointed in the UK. I think you know that very well.
I do know. The existing PM remains in situ until soundings demonstrate that someone else definitely can command the house. See 1979 and 2010.
I don't think Boris will break the law, but he's not going to extend either. So it's either resignation or some other cunning plan that no-one has thought of.
Drug induced coma during October? A small war? Letter lost in the mail?
Comments
And Labour’s response team are nowhere.
It's not gonna hold up and will be forgotten about once an election is underway. It's really more about trying to goad labour into calling a pre 31st election. Luckily so far it doesn't seem to be working.
It can only be worse for Boris to have an election post 31st after a brexit extension, I can't see how it can help him. So why call an election before then? It's been shown repeatedly that not only do the public especially want an election or think it will help, but that they also think poorly of everyone in Parliament already, its not like Corbyn is sullying his amazing reputation right now.
The chicken thing is as you say sad and pathetic
"Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, if a government is defeated on a motion that ‘this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, there is then a 14-day period during which an alternative government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent government can seek to regain the confidence of the House. If no government can secure the confidence of the House of Commons during that period, through the approval of a motion that ‘this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government’, a general election will take place."
Nah, can’t think of one.
Good on you Fatty! (not so fat as when I met him a few years ago)
https://twitter.com/chrismasonbbc/status/1170009234471305217?s=21
That said, if Boris could be constrained into bringing back (and maybe even passing!) the softer than May WA deal of the Kinnock amendment, I think I would weep at the wonder of it. Although, I'm not sure whether all the documentation and basis for agreement actually exists to underpin the Kinnock amendment, can anyone enlighten?
Plus Mr. Cameron was deeply disliked and seen as a phoney “call me Dave” politician.
I believe she should stand for a General Election with that policy in her manifesto then. Good riddance!
I am explaining how it would be possible for a newly appointed PM to obtain a VOC despite parliament having been prorogued.
He means he did some work. Boris sees that as a negative.
He also seems to have some Billy Bunter attitudes to women, which explains a lot.
It’ll be the LOTO first and if that doesn’t look likely she’ll take “soundings”, which means the opposition parties and rebels will agree a compromise candidate.
It may be he’s aiming for a far too narrow coalition (I think that’s possible) but based on his strategy, this won’t worry him.
It really didn't require an intervention Jo, fauxrage is not a vote winner
https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1169990428759875585
The culture war is starting.
https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1169992382093434880?s=20
There's no game of musical chairs or first dibs.
And a certain Mark Harper at the time called it unconstitutional !
It is however perfectly legal , these worries were dismissed at the time as negligible because politically it was expected that the public fall out would put governments off doing this but we don’t live in normal times .
I think the issue is whether the motion derived from the FTPA is amendable . It does fall under a substantive motion so ordinarily that is amendable .
This when you look at it though feels a bit strange because surely the government could amend it to nullify the legality if it wanted to remain in power .
There seems to be a lack of clarity as to what the exact situation is re amendments .
Any constitutional experts in here ?
[Puer is 'boy' in Latin. Girl is 'puella', I think].
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1169981636634714115?s=21
A small war?
Letter lost in the mail?