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  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Cyclefree said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    If made outside Parliament I have little doubt that such a statement would be deemed libellous.

    He is attacking the doctor’s integrity and competence by comparing him to Wakefield and unless he can justify those statements it is a libel and a pretty serious one, too.
    I think it would struggle in court, but I'm not a lawyer
    Stupid thing to say though no doubt
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:



    No, it doesn’t. For someone who claims to be so keen on democracy you seem to lack the most basic understanding of it. The concept of opposition is integral to it. It is inherent in any democracy that anyone is entitled to disagree with the verdict of the majority and seek to change it. Opposition and disagreement are legitimate, indeed necessary. They do not make you a traitor.

    You keep on repeating this. It is wrong. It is tiresome. It is offensive. And it diminishes you.

    Your mindset is, I’m afraid to say, not that of a democrat but more akin to those who think there can only be one legitimate way of thinking about a policy. Countries that operate like this tend to be found in the Middle East and similar places. If you want to understand what is really needed for a country to be democratic, read this - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/07/21/cultivating-democracy/. You might even learn something.

    You are entitled to fight for your beliefs in an election or referendum campaign, you can even try and reverse the result in a subsequent election or referendum, what you are NOT entitled to do and the reason why so many Leavers (and even a few Remainers) are so angry now is refuse to implement the result of that election or referendum in the first place because you don't like it.

    That is the way democracy dies
    I profoundly disagree with that - what you are describing is plebiscitary dictatorship - but it's a view.

    Where you are demonstrably wrong is to equate voting against the WA and voting for extension over No Deal with a refusal to implement the result of the referendum.
    You might not like it, and it might be unpopular, but it would be perfectly consistent with the referendum result to argue for more time to be taken and/or for a softer Brexit.

    And to go on to claim 'that by definition makes you a traitor to democracy' is simply absurd.
  • DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
  • The truth is that the public voted to leave the EU, and 3 years later Parliament is refusing to do so.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust.

    Most posters on here are men I think - if there were more women we would hear more of that aspect of Johnson's character. It will be a factor in the election, perhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    Build the wall, lock her up, no obstruction no collusion, witch hunt
    Trump plays purely on these simple messages
    Yes, seems obvious to me that’s what Boris is trying to do. His PMQ answers were just simple sound bites that often had nothing at all to do with the question.
    Boris is on team Trump theres no doubt of that
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited September 2019

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    Wakefield is discredited, struck off for unethical behaviour, misconduct and dishonesty and authoring fraudulent research. Let’s see if JRM repeats his remarks outside the house.
    So he thinks he is very irresponsible. Where is the slander? He did not say he was more unethical, worse in conduct or fraudulent.
    I agree hes talking shit but it's not slander.
    He is not saying “very irresponsible”. He is saying “as irresponsible as” i.e. a direct comparison with a man who has done all the things described above. That comparison is what is libellous. Those two “as”’s could, if repeated outside the House, prove to be very expensive indeed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Cyclefree said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    If made outside Parliament I have little doubt that such a statement would be deemed libellous.

    He is attacking the doctor’s integrity and competence by comparing him to Wakefield and unless he can justify those statements it is a libel and a pretty serious one, too.
    I think it would struggle in court, but I'm not a lawyer
    Stupid thing to say though no doubt
    Considering Wakefield was struck off the medical register, I don't think it would be a struggle at all. It is libellous.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    JohnO said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust Boris" is such a powerful rallying call forperhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    While being careful about the impact of opinion polls and accompanying hyperbole, I do believe those published this weekend are very important one way or the other. For example, what if they collectively show the Tories actually losing ground, will the Government be as eager for that mid October election? My own hunch is the lead will stay the same or go higher which generates its own huge political pressures ahead of Monday's fateful vote.
    Interestingly no one on here seems to have set the usual artificially high expectations bar for the Tories ahead of said polls
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    In my opinion, democracy dies when you use misleading statistics and misconceptions to whip up nationalistic rage in order to win a referendum.

    But hey, we are where we are.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    If you are in medicine I suspect you view point might be rather different.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Cyclefree said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    Wakefield is discredited, struck off for unethical behaviour, misconduct and dishonesty and authoring fraudulent research. Let’s see if JRM repeats his remarks outside the house.
    So he thinks he is very irresponsible. Where is the slander? He did not say he was more unethical, worse in conduct or fraudulent.
    I agree hes talking shit but it's not slander.
    He is not saying “very irresponsible”. He is saying “as irresponsible as” i.e. a direct comparison with a man who has done all the things described above. That comparison is what is libellous. Those two “as”’s could, if repeated outside the House, prove to be very expensive indeed.
    Ok well then he better watch himself!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    Wakefield is discredited, struck off for unethical behaviour, misconduct and dishonesty and authoring fraudulent research. Let’s see if JRM repeats his remarks outside the house.
    So he thinks he is very irresponsible. Where is the slander? He did not say he was more unethical, worse in conduct or fraudulent.
    I agree hes talking shit but it's not slander.
    It would be prima facie defamatory because the innuendo is a discredit to the individual and it causes the regard in which he is held by others to be lowered. This (I think) would be false innuendo - when the meaning suggested through innuendo is generally available to most people and does not require any other knowledge. If the good doctor can get over that hurdle, and show it had caused him significant damage, then it would (if it had been spoken outside Parliament) be for JRM to show that one of the relevant defences applies.


  • But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    eek said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    If you are in medicine I suspect you view point might be rather different.
    No, if I were in medicine I'd still think it was a stupid and misguided thing to say
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    Yes the parties didn't vote for an election because Boris can't be trusted
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited September 2019

    eek said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    If you are in medicine I suspect you view point might be rather different.
    No, if I were in medicine I'd still think it was a stupid and misguided thing to say
    Let's hope JRM says it outside Parliament and will find out the answer.

    However, would you agree that if JRM refuses to repeat it outside Parliament that it is libel.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    DougSeal said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    Wakefield is discredited, struck off for unethical behaviour, misconduct and dishonesty and authoring fraudulent research. Let’s see if JRM repeats his remarks outside the house.
    So he thinks he is very irresponsible. Where is the slander? He did not say he was more unethical, worse in conduct or fraudulent.
    I agree hes talking shit but it's not slander.
    It would be prima facie defamatory because the innuendo is a discredit to the individual and it causes the regard in which he is held by others to be lowered. This (I think) would be false innuendo - when the meaning suggested through innuendo is generally available to most people and does not require any other knowledge. If the good doctor can get over that hurdle, and show it had caused him significant damage, then it would (if it had been spoken outside Parliament) be for JRM to show that one of the relevant defences applies.
    This is why I'm not a lawyer. Ok, I think the consensus is I am wrong on this. Therefore I withdraw the suggestion it isn't slander outside parliament as incorrect


  • But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    eek said:

    eek said:

    The next time JRM is interviewed he’s going to be asked to repeat that slander without the benefit of Parliamentary privilege.
    It's not slander. If he thinks he is that irresponsible it's his factual opinion of the man. A worse striker than John Fashanu is not a slander.
    It's a stupid and misguided opinion though
    If you are in medicine I suspect you view point might be rather different.
    No, if I were in medicine I'd still think it was a stupid and misguided thing to say
    Let's hope JRM says it outside Parliament and will find out the answer.

    However, would you agree that if JRM refuses to repeat it outside Parliament that it is libel.
    Indeed.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust Boris" is such a powerful rallying call for his opponents. He is fundamentally an untrustworthy liar, both politically and personally.

    My wife, who is not very interested in politics and thought Theresa May was doing her best against the odds, thinks he is a disgusting individual unfit to be PM, not because of Brexit but because of his attitude to women. I am sure she is not alone in taking this view.

    Most posters on here are men I think - if there were more women we would hear more of that aspect of Johnson's character. It will be a factor in the election, perhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care if you shag mewling blind hamsters at 4am, as long as you get the job done.

    Boris, who is clearly a shit, looks like he wants to get the job done, and has the mojo to do it. Theresa, who was so fundamentally decent she thought running in wheat fields was outrageous, was a shit politician who got nothing done, so the voters decided not to give her a majority, even against Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    Sympathy , I think you need to have a nap.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jo Johnson is a diehard Remainer who voted for EUref2 and did not even vote for the Withdrawal Agreement.

    It is good for Boris that he is showing he will take on the diehard Remainers trying to deny the will of the people even if one is his own brother

    This one is even better than some of your previous masterpieces. How can you even try and spin this as something positive, it is PR disaster for Johnson.

    Boris is such a first class wanker and liar that he cannot even retain the loyalty of his brother. I wonder when Johnson senior will disown him!
    No, half the Johnson family voted Remain and it is clear Jo is a diehard Remainer who refused to accept the will of the people.

    To reassure Leavers it is great news for Boris that even if it costs his brother his political career Boris will not back down from taking on the diehard Remainer traitors and Corbyn who refuse to respect the Leave vote
    May I suggest that referring to Remainers as "traitors" is inappropriate. You should take the opportunity to apologise and moderate your language, or perhaps have a cold shower.
    Those who betrayed the Leave vote despite voting for the referendum and to trigger article 50 are traitors to democracy and I will continue to describe them as such
    How do you define betraying the Leave vote? Voting against May's deal (like the current PM, twice)? Voting to rule out a no deal Brexit (that was never on the ballot paper)? What, exactly, do you mean?

    "Traitor to democracy"? That (a) has no meaning and (b) isn't what you said.

    Seriously, don't call people traitors. It's language like this that creates the breeding ground for violent extremism, which has already claimed the life of an MP.
    Voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and voting for extension over No Deal by definition makes you a traitor to democracy and the Leave vote
    Boris voted against the Withdrawal Agreement twice.
    The referendum didn't mention No Deal, we've never been offered a democratic vote on it.
    If you vote against the only available Deal and against No Deal then by basic elimination you have to be voting against Leave altogether. After all we keep being told there is no alternative Deal available.
    But I thought the EU had another deal being kept secret that they were going to suddenly produce on the 29th October only once they realised that the UK really would accept no-deal.
  • In my opinion, democracy dies when you use misleading statistics and misconceptions to whip up nationalistic rage in order to win a referendum.

    But hey, we are where we are.

    Good job your opinion is wrong then because every Government we have uses misleading statistics and misconceptions to whip up something.

    You just happen to not like this particular result and so label it as wrong. I could say the same about any campaign resulting in a Socialist Government in this country. Neither position would be correct or helpful.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust.

    Most posters on here are men I think - if there were more women we would hear more of that aspect of Johnson's character. It will be a factor in the election, perhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    Build the wall, lock her up, no obstruction no collusion, witch hunt
    Trump plays purely on these simple messages
    Yes, seems obvious to me that’s what Boris is trying to do. His PMQ answers were just simple sound bites that often had nothing at all to do with the question.
    Do you really think the public are that stupid? Saddening if you are right.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    In my opinion, democracy dies when you use misleading statistics and misconceptions to whip up nationalistic rage in order to win a referendum.

    But hey, we are where we are.

    Good job your opinion is wrong then because every Government we have uses misleading statistics and misconceptions to whip up something.

    You just happen to not like this particular result and so label it as wrong. I could say the same about any campaign resulting in a Socialist Government in this country. Neither position would be correct or helpful.
    Thank you for your comment.
  • eristdoof said:



    But I thought the EU had another deal being kept secret that they were going to suddenly produce on the 29th October only once they realised that the UK really would accept no-deal.

    You are talking to the wrong person about that. My deal was even softer than May's so I have no illusions about the EU position.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    edited September 2019



    But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    We tried that and it didn't work. Look at all those alternatives they voted for and not one got a majority

    Edit. Though I wish you were right.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427



    But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    We tried that and it didn't work. Look at all those alternatives they voted for and not one got a majority
    Was not a free vote.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    isam said:

    JohnO said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust Boris" is such a powerful rallying call forperhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    While being careful about the impact of opinion polls and accompanying hyperbole, I do believe those published this weekend are very important one way or the other. For example, what if they collectively show the Tories actually losing ground, will the Government be as eager for that mid October election? My own hunch is the lead will stay the same or go higher which generates its own huge political pressures ahead of Monday's fateful vote.
    Interestingly no one on here seems to have set the usual artificially high expectations bar for the Tories ahead of said polls
    Au contraire, the PB Tory trick is to reverse ramp polls (suggest Labour leads etc).


  • But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    We tried that and it didn't work. Look at all those alternatives they voted for and not one got a majority
    We didnt! It was a handful of votes short and the payroll vote wasnt allowed to support it. A free vote for every MP and soft Brexit has a comfortable majority.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust.

    Most posters on here are men I think - if there were more women we would hear more of that aspect of Johnson's character. It will be a factor in the election, perhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    Build the wall, lock her up, no obstruction no collusion, witch hunt
    Trump plays purely on these simple messages
    Yes, seems obvious to me that’s what Boris is trying to do. His PMQ answers were just simple sound bites that often had nothing at all to do with the question.
    Do you really think the public are that stupid? Saddening if you are right.
    Soundbites work and always did. They appear to be becoming more simplistic with time
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Serious question. Why would he do that and then try to get an election? I do think he genuinely thinks he can win an election in which case the Confidence vote ruse would not have been a ruse at all.
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Not to protect him. If the opposition wanted and could win an election then he could be out.

  • Blame the FTPA. He tabled an election motion under the FTPA and Parliament chose to reject it.

    It's a post FTPA confidence motion.

    No, a post-FTPA confidence motion is a motion that says you have no confidence in the government, and the process after it passes is that someone else can try to form a government.

    If he thinks the motion he was defeated on was equivalent of a VONC, he should resign and recommend either the Leader of the Opposition, who may well be able to form a government, or another Tory like Theresa May who had the confidence of the House from the same set of MPs for a long time before she resigned of her own volition.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    isam said:

    JohnO said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust Boris" is such a powerful rallying call forperhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    While being careful about the impact of opinion polls and accompanying hyperbole, I do believe those published this weekend are very important one way or the other. For example, what if they collectively show the Tories actually losing ground, will the Government be as eager for that mid October election? My own hunch is the lead will stay the same or go higher which generates its own huge political pressures ahead of Monday's fateful vote.
    Interestingly no one on here seems to have set the usual artificially high expectations bar for the Tories ahead of said polls
    Con 46%
    Lab 20%
    LD 21%
    Green 4%
    BXP 5%
    Other 4%
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited September 2019

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Not to protect him. If the opposition wanted and could win an election then he could be out.
    It's because and let me repeat this again for the hard of thinking

    They don't trust Boris and Cummings so won't allow an election to be called until leaving without a deal (i.e. leaving with No Deal) on October 31st is impossible.

    At the moment they fear Boris will change the election date to November 7th without Benn's Act being in place.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Not to protect him. If the opposition wanted and could win an election then he could be out.
    You know what the argument is ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Metropolitan liberal elite scum!!!!!

    I like to think so. Especially the scum bit. ☺

    Still, if the Tories want to write off seats like Hampstead & Kilburn on their own head be it.
  • HYUFD said:

    You are entitled to fight for your beliefs in an election or referendum campaign, you can even try and reverse the result in a subsequent election or referendum, what you are NOT entitled to do and the reason why so many Leavers (and even a few Remainers) are so angry now is refuse to implement the result of that election or referendum in the first place because you don't like it.

    Boris Johnson refused to implement it because he thought it would help him become Prime Minister. Why don't you condemn him?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Not to protect him. If the opposition wanted and could win an election then he could be out.
    But they do protect him. He said "this is a confidence motion" knowing full well that (a) he was not going to resign and (b) it was not in his gift to trigger an election. So the old consequences for him of losing a confidence vote were not there. He could (and maybe his supposedly omnicient consigliere "wargamed" it) have predicted that the opposition would not risk an election at this point. So it was a so-called "confidence" motion with very little downside for him but not for those who voted against.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Paine's been dropped.

  • Blame the FTPA. He tabled an election motion under the FTPA and Parliament chose to reject it.

    It's a post FTPA confidence motion.

    No, a post-FTPA confidence motion is a motion that says you have no confidence in the government, and the process after it passes is that someone else can try to form a government.

    If he thinks the motion he was defeated on was equivalent of a VONC, he should resign and recommend either the Leader of the Opposition, who may well be able to form a government, or another Tory like Theresa May who had the confidence of the House from the same set of MPs for a long time before she resigned of her own volition.
    And yet the Opposition and the rebels could call a VONC and win it right now. But they choose not to because they fear a GE.
  • The truth is that the public voted to leave the EU, and 3 years later Parliament is refusing to do so.

    The truth is that 6 years ago, the Prime Minister came up with a policy to "settle" our relationship with Europe, and it demonstrably failed.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077


    Blame the FTPA. He tabled an election motion under the FTPA and Parliament chose to reject it.

    It's a post FTPA confidence motion.

    No, a post-FTPA confidence motion is a motion that says you have no confidence in the government, and the process after it passes is that someone else can try to form a government.

    If he thinks the motion he was defeated on was equivalent of a VONC, he should resign and recommend either the Leader of the Opposition, who may well be able to form a government, or another Tory like Theresa May who had the confidence of the House from the same set of MPs for a long time before she resigned of her own volition.
    And yet the Opposition and the rebels could call a VONC and win it right now. But they choose not to because they fear a GE.
    No - currently it's because getting Benn's act into law is more important.

    Only when that is done and Royal Assent has been given can you start thinking about a general election or a VONC...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344



    But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    We tried that and it didn't work. Look at all those alternatives they voted for and not one got a majority

    Edit. Though I wish you were right.
    To be fair, did every option provide 'cover' for Ireland. Obviously both, or either of, Single Market and Customs Union do.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    blueblue said:

    Completely wrong:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1489350/10-priapic-politicos.html

    1: Viscount Palmerston

    19th-century Liberal prime minister who fathered the last of several illegitimate children in his 70s. Disraeli refused to mention this in a campaign against him, saying that if the Tories advertised Palmerston's virility, "he will sweep the country".
    But women did not have the vote then.

  • Where are you seeing all this 'anger' out of interest? I don't think I live a sheltered life, yet I haven't met a single human being since the vote whom I could describe as 'angry' about Brexit - at worst there might be a kind of eye-rolling, bewildered annoyance.

    That genuinely surprises me.

    I am still friends on Facebook with a good number of (very) working class schoolmates from Manchester and their feeds, probably unsurprisingly, are full of rage at what is happening.

    What I haven't expected is a different sort of disgust from the middle class professional colleagues and friends I now work with who are much more 'remainery' without being on the extreme fringes of the sort you see on here.

    It is why I am pretty confident that remainers/Labourites are going to be utterly distraught the morning after the election when reality transpires to be nothing like the one sided twitter-lite echo chamber on here.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Dyed...

    “Tough on furriners. Tough on the causes of furriners”
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Serious question. Why would he do that and then try to get an election? I do think he genuinely thinks he can win an election in which case the Confidence vote ruse would not have been a ruse at all.
    If he thought the opposition were going to vote against then it wouldn't matter either way would it? By the mere fact he thinks he can win he must realise that it is less likely that the other side of the house would want to go to the polls right now. Apparently he is advised by the greatest political mind since Machiavelli so he would surely have seen that coming?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    edited September 2019


    We tried that and it didn't work. Look at all those alternatives they voted for and not one got a majority

    It's true that none of the indicative votes passed but that doesn't mean that nothing *can* pass.

    For a start the government wasn't whipping for any of them, which is crazy weird in the British system - hardly anything controversial ever gets into law unless the government whips for it.

    And secondly, even if *this* parliament can't pass anything, there's always the option of having an election and changing the parliament. (I know parliament just voted that down too, but they'll vote for it eventually, and there's nothing magical about the Oct 31st leaving date.) A Lib-Lab-SNP government could pass Norway+referendum, and a Con government with a large majority could pass the WA or the NI-only backstop.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    Would you like £100? Y

    Would you like £100 if the only way you can get it, is that your son dies in an accident at work and his employers give you £100 as compensation? N, in those circumstances I would rather not have it.

    Aha, so we have established that you DON'T want £100 after all. Gotcha.

    [No, actually, I would still like £100.]

    It's extraordinary the lengths the local leavers will go to to keep their spirits up. They are actually as appalled as the rest of us - because not to be appalled, is to be insane, pretty much. But they cannot admit the situation without terminally damaging their self-image as 'ard men, FULL OF WIN, right about everything, etcetc. Hence ludicrous arguments like the above (with apols to w.w.jacobs).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited September 2019
    Carnyx said:

    blueblue said:

    Completely wrong:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1489350/10-priapic-politicos.html

    1: Viscount Palmerston

    19th-century Liberal prime minister who fathered the last of several illegitimate children in his 70s. Disraeli refused to mention this in a campaign against him, saying that if the Tories advertised Palmerston's virility, "he will sweep the country".
    But women did not have the vote then.
    And most of the recent British examples were defeated. Lloyd George, Major, Steve Norris.
  • I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    JohnO said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust Boris" is such a powerful rallying call forperhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    While being careful about the impact of opinion polls and accompanying hyperbole, I do believe those published this weekend are very important one way or the other. For example, what if they collectively show the Tories actually losing ground, will the Government be as eager for that mid October election? My own hunch is the lead will stay the same or go higher which generates its own huge political pressures ahead of Monday's fateful vote.
    Interestingly no one on here seems to have set the usual artificially high expectations bar for the Tories ahead of said polls
    Au contraire, the PB Tory trick is to reverse ramp polls (suggest Labour leads etc).
    Yes, that’s what I said
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I am not sure right wingers will feel this way. Jo Johnson knew his brother's do or die push, so his flip flopping from supporting May to resigning to supporting Boris to resigning makes him look like the untrustworthy one.

    It’s possible that Boris made promises about being serious about going for a deal and Jo has now realised that he was being played.

    I also wonder how much the expulsion of the 21 has changed matters. It is such a vindictive act.
    Please explain how it is vindictive? They were told the consequences, told it was a confidence motion and made their choice.

    Are all confidence motions vindictive?
    Calling a motion a "confidence" motion in the full knowledge that it, for you, will have none of the traditional adverse consequences of such a motion if you lose, but it will for those who don't follow the whip, is indeed vindictive. Or perhaps cowardly is a better word. It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation. Had this happened in 2010 there would have been a resignation or an election. But there's no resignation, there is no election, and yet they had the whip removed anyway. That's vindicitive.
    There's only no election as the opposition rejected it. Boris voted for one.

    Blame the FTPA not Boris. He called an election but under the FTPA the opposition including the rebels stymied it.
    He called this a "confidence" motion knowing full well that the old rules applying to confidence motions had been disapplied to protect him.
    Not to protect him. If the opposition wanted and could win an election then he could be out.
    It's because and let me repeat this again for the hard of thinking

    They don't trust Boris and Cummings so won't allow an election to be called until leaving without a deal (i.e. leaving with No Deal) on October 31st is impossible.

    At the moment they fear Boris will change the election date to November 7th without Benn's Act being in place.
    Are these people entirely stupid or are they deliberately trying not to grasp it??!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Also, leaving your wife (because you were cheating on her yet again) when she's being treated for cancer.

    He's a class act.
    Boris' wife was treated for cancer after their divorce, very distasteful post from you
    They're still married. The decree absolute hasn't been granted yet. He's technically living in sin.
    So Boris Johnson is not only an adulterer he's also a fornicator!
    Where do you rate in those stakes?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077


    Where are you seeing all this 'anger' out of interest? I don't think I live a sheltered life, yet I haven't met a single human being since the vote whom I could describe as 'angry' about Brexit - at worst there might be a kind of eye-rolling, bewildered annoyance.

    That genuinely surprises me.

    I am still friends on Facebook with a good number of (very) working class schoolmates from Manchester and their feeds, probably unsurprisingly, are full of rage at what is happening.

    What I haven't expected is a different sort of disgust from the middle class professional colleagues and friends I now work with who are much more 'remainery' without being on the extreme fringes of the sort you see on here.

    It is why I am pretty confident that remainers/Labourites are going to be utterly distraught the morning after the election when reality transpires to be nothing like the one sided twitter-lite echo chamber on here.
    To be honest it wouldn't surprise. The result of the next election will depend on who can get their voters out and while I suspect it may be harder for the Tories than they hope I'm not going to predict a conclusion nor bet (outside of badly mispriced Scottish seats where SNP gain is a strong likelihood).
  • The challenge for any GE is how Boris dissolves (or does not) during the campaign.

    Remember what happened to Theresa May. And Boris isn’t exactly renowned for putting himself front and centre of debates either.

    I would take any opinion poll with a pinch of salt. Public opinions are very volatile.

    The Tories could get 20% or 40%.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust.

    Most posters on here are men I think - if there were more women we would hear more of that aspect of Johnson's character. It will be a factor in the election, perhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I think, more importantly, PBers are underestimating the anger out there: aimed at ALL politicians. So they don’t want Boris and they don’t want No Deal, what do they want? How are they gonna end this, if not the boris way?!

    This anger, already unprecedented, will probably get worse if Labour, et al, successfully force an extension, as seems likely.
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    Build the wall, lock her up, no obstruction no collusion, witch hunt
    Trump plays purely on these simple messages
    Yes, seems obvious to me that’s what Boris is trying to do. His PMQ answers were just simple sound bites that often had nothing at all to do with the question.
    Do you really think the public are that stupid? Saddening if you are right.
    Apparently they are, if you believe the Remain view of why Leave won
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    isam said:

    isam said:

    JohnO said:

    isam said:

    Byronic said:

    JohnO said:

    Byronic said:

    GIN1138 said:

    That Boris is a rascal. ;)
    I suspect female voters - already less keen on BREXIT than male may reach a less forgiving conclusion. While we’ve had promiscuous philanderers as PM before, have we had one with such a “colourful” private life in the age of female emancipation or tabloid journalism?
    This is another reason why "you can't trust Boris" is such a powerful rallying call forperhaps a decisive one.
    And yet he’s got a very hefty poll bounce.

    Most people find it quite easy, these days, to separate the politician from the person. They don’t care Corbyn.

    Let’s wait for the post-Surrender Act polls. You may be disappointed
    Despite being of the Nabavi/Herdson/TSE/Scrapheap/Casino persuasion (albeit not resigning Tory membership), I strongly suspect that you and HYUFD are closer to calling the electoral impact correctly than 80% of the other regular posters here.
    Boris will get sympathy, and maybe a patriotic slap on the back, from voters

    I
    People want a leader who says he’s going to do something simple and understandable then does it. People on here are fans of wordy, lawyerly prose because it’s clever clever. The public despise it.
    While being careful about the impact of opinion polls and accompanying hyperbole, I do believe those published this weekend are very important one way or the other. For example, what if they collectively show the Tories actually losing ground, will the Government be as eager for that mid October election? My own hunch is the lead will stay the same or go higher which generates its own huge political pressures ahead of Monday's fateful vote.
    Interestingly no one on here seems to have set the usual artificially high expectations bar for the Tories ahead of said polls
    Au contraire, the PB Tory trick is to reverse ramp polls (suggest Labour leads etc).
    Yes, that’s what I said
    I may have misread what you wrote then.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited September 2019
    Has BoZo really prorogued himself out of an early election?

    Cummings is a fucking genius...
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Also, leaving your wife (because you were cheating on her yet again) when she's being treated for cancer. He's a class act.
    Boris' wife was treated for cancer after their divorce, very distasteful post from you
    They're still married. The decree absolute hasn't been granted yet. He's technically living in sin.
    So Boris Johnson is not only an adulterer he's also a fornicator!
    Can one be an adulterer without being a fornicator?
    Asking for a friend.
    You can but try, Mr cole.

  • And yet the Opposition and the rebels could call a VONC and win it right now. But they choose not to because they fear a GE.

    Sure. But the point I'm making is that the PM is not treating the vote as if it was a confidence vote. If he was, he would already have resigned. It was a regular leadership powerplay followed by some politics, not a not a confidence motion or a motion the government decided to treat as a confidence motion.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,873
    Scott_P said:

    JohnO said:

    Apologies if someone else has also noted that Jo's departure has to be an almost unique case of a Minister resigning to spend less time with his family.

    fewer...
    Pineapple pizza.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334

    Do they realise how very badly that is going to play with the voters here?

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334

    Tgats going to harden the Brexiteer vote, the EU demanding 'regime change'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Do you really think the public are that stupid? Saddening if you are right.

    I'm not a big fan of the public but I would baulk at stupid.

    I'd more say shallow, intellectually lazy, and apolitical.

    Thus prone to be attracted to 'simple' and 'entertaining' over something more challenging.

    Johnson could benefit big time from this. I think he probably will.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155


    Where are you seeing all this 'anger' out of interest? I don't think I live a sheltered life, yet I haven't met a single human being since the vote whom I could describe as 'angry' about Brexit - at worst there might be a kind of eye-rolling, bewildered annoyance.

    That genuinely surprises me.

    I am still friends on Facebook with a good number of (very) working class schoolmates from Manchester and their feeds, probably unsurprisingly, are full of rage at what is happening.

    What I haven't expected is a different sort of disgust from the middle class professional colleagues and friends I now work with who are much more 'remainery' without being on the extreme fringes of the sort you see on here.

    It is why I am pretty confident that remainers/Labourites are going to be utterly distraught the morning after the election when reality transpires to be nothing like the one sided twitter-lite echo chamber on here.
    But did those working class schoolmates ever a) vote Labour to begin with (as there has always been a subsection of the Tory vote that was wwm) b) will there be enough of them to turn red seats blue c) will those middle class professionals vote tactically against the blues?

    I do not think Labour can become the largest party in parliament. I also do not think it is likely that Johnson can win a majority whilst losing Scotland and the South West. Therefore I think the most likely outcome is a Lab led government with SNP and LD support, but there is a possibility (maybe as high as a third of the time) that Tories can form a governing majority.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Has BoZo really prorogued himself out of an early election?

    Cummings is a fucking genius...

    Yes - he really is that stupid. Welcome to a 10-12 week election campaign with a Queen's speech in the middle as an interlude which will be treated with contempt by everyone.

    The first 5 weeks are going to be fun - Boris you know that election you wanted well you can have it now. All you need to do is recall Parliament - oops...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892


    And yet the Opposition and the rebels could call a VONC and win it right now. But they choose not to because they fear a GE.

    Sure. But the point I'm making is that the PM is not treating the vote as if it was a confidence vote. If he was, he would already have resigned. It was a regular leadership powerplay followed by some politics, not a not a confidence motion or a motion the government decided to treat as a confidence motion.
    Corbyn can call a VONC after Benn gains RA if he wants.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    PClipp said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Also, leaving your wife (because you were cheating on her yet again) when she's being treated for cancer. He's a class act.
    Boris' wife was treated for cancer after their divorce, very distasteful post from you
    They're still married. The decree absolute hasn't been granted yet. He's technically living in sin.
    So Boris Johnson is not only an adulterer he's also a fornicator!
    Can one be an adulterer without being a fornicator?
    Asking for a friend.
    You can but try, Mr cole.
    Who was it committed adultery in his heart?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    eek said:


    Where are you seeing all this 'anger' out of interest? I don't think I live a sheltered life, yet I haven't met a single human being since the vote whom I could describe as 'angry' about Brexit - at worst there might be a kind of eye-rolling, bewildered annoyance.

    That genuinely surprises me.

    I am still friends on Facebook with a good number of (very) working class schoolmates from Manchester and their feeds, probably unsurprisingly, are full of rage at what is happening.

    What I haven't expected is a different sort of disgust from the middle class professional colleagues and friends I now work with who are much more 'remainery' without being on the extreme fringes of the sort you see on here.

    It is why I am pretty confident that remainers/Labourites are going to be utterly distraught the morning after the election when reality transpires to be nothing like the one sided twitter-lite echo chamber on here.
    To be honest it wouldn't surprise. The result of the next election will depend on who can get their voters out and while I suspect it may be harder for the Tories than they hope I'm not going to predict a conclusion nor bet (outside of badly mispriced Scottish seats where SNP gain is a strong likelihood).
    The risk to Labour is if Cummings can repeat his trick of getting pissed off voters who normally dont vote to turn out. Harder to do the second time of course.
  • DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Also, leaving your wife (because you were cheating on her yet again) when she's being treated for cancer.

    He's a class act.
    Boris' wife was treated for cancer after their divorce, very distasteful post from you
    They're still married. The decree absolute hasn't been granted yet. He's technically living in sin.
    So Boris Johnson is not only an adulterer he's also a fornicator!
    Where do you rate in those stakes?
    *Checks decree nisi*

    My ex wife divorced me on the grounds of spending too much time on PB adultery.

    But if mother ever asks you, it was on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour.

  • Blame the FTPA. He tabled an election motion under the FTPA and Parliament chose to reject it.

    It's a post FTPA confidence motion.

    No, a post-FTPA confidence motion is a motion that says you have no confidence in the government, and the process after it passes is that someone else can try to form a government.

    If he thinks the motion he was defeated on was equivalent of a VONC, he should resign and recommend either the Leader of the Opposition, who may well be able to form a government, or another Tory like Theresa May who had the confidence of the House from the same set of MPs for a long time before she resigned of her own volition.
    No he should seek an election which has been an alternative for centuries now.
  • Ishmael_Z said:



    But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    Would you like £100? Y

    Would you like £100 if the only way you can get it, is that your son dies in an accident at work and his employers give you £100 as compensation? N, in those circumstances I would rather not have it.

    Aha, so we have established that you DON'T want £100 after all. Gotcha.

    [No, actually, I would still like £100.]

    It's extraordinary the lengths the local leavers will go to to keep their spirits up. They are actually as appalled as the rest of us - because not to be appalled, is to be insane, pretty much. But they cannot admit the situation without terminally damaging their self-image as 'ard men, FULL OF WIN, right about everything, etcetc. Hence ludicrous arguments like the above (with apols to w.w.jacobs).
    I see you are back on the alcohol again. My sympathies.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    eek said:

    Scott_P said:

    Has BoZo really prorogued himself out of an early election?

    Cummings is a fucking genius...

    Yes - he really is that stupid. Welcome to a 10-12 week election campaign with a Queen's speech in the middle as an interlude which will be treated with contempt by everyone.
    What if he has got an even bigger bus ?
  • I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334

    Do they realise how very badly that is going to play with the voters here?

    Remainer Heaven. Brussels dictates when the A50 extension expires and when the GE is. Well done Clarke, Hammond etc.
  • I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334

    Do they realise how very badly that is going to play with the voters here?

    And they care why, exactly?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    eek said:


    Where are you seeing all this 'anger' out of interest? I don't think I live a sheltered life, yet I haven't met a single human being since the vote whom I could describe as 'angry' about Brexit - at worst there might be a kind of eye-rolling, bewildered annoyance.

    That genuinely surprises me.

    I am still friends on Facebook with a good number of (very) working class schoolmates from Manchester and their feeds, probably unsurprisingly, are full of rage at what is happening.

    What I haven't expected is a different sort of disgust from the middle class professional colleagues and friends I now work with who are much more 'remainery' without being on the extreme fringes of the sort you see on here.

    It is why I am pretty confident that remainers/Labourites are going to be utterly distraught the morning after the election when reality transpires to be nothing like the one sided twitter-lite echo chamber on here.
    To be honest it wouldn't surprise. The result of the next election will depend on who can get their voters out and while I suspect it may be harder for the Tories than they hope I'm not going to predict a conclusion nor bet (outside of badly mispriced Scottish seats where SNP gain is a strong likelihood).
    The risk to Labour is if Cummings can repeat his trick of getting pissed off voters who normally dont vote to turn out. Harder to do the second time of course.
    Even harder to do when the party they need to vote for was previously the voter's devil incarnate.
  • Scott_P said:
    Am i being stupid, but whats stopping labour saying no again? Given the bill that basically says Boris MUST call an exention then he'd be forced to resign by his own words.
  • If we must have Conservative MPs we should want them to be like Jo Johnson. The kind of people who are now voluntarily leaving the Conservative Party will reshape it and in due course the nation.

    If we must have Labour MPs we should want them to be like Luciana Berger. The fact that today she's ended up in the Liberal Democrats simply due to institutional antisemeticism is appalling.

    With our highly centralised democracy and FPTP Labour and Conservative parties are at least part of the social fabric and perhaps de facto organs of state. They are both in deep trouble with no sign ( outside Scotland ) of the free market generating a replacement.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Corbo can simply walk into the Aye lobby on Monday while instructing every other Labour MP to go down the Red Lion for a few jars. Job done.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Ishmael_Z said:



    But there are other options available if we change our red lines. 5/6 MPs have voted for either a customs union brexit or Mays deal. The blame cannot lie with individual MPs on that basis, if collectively they have been gridlocked, it is the party leaderships who are to blame.

    But HYUFDs post specifically mentioned voting against the Deal and No Deal. On that basis he is absolutely right. If you vote against the only viable options for something then you are voting against the thing itself.

    As it stands there are no other options available. I wish there were.
    But they are viable options. If both party leaderships just offered a free vote we would vote for soft Brexit this evening. It could be agreed with the EU in a couple of weeks.

    It is not realistic to allow one party to define viable options and the other to be held responsible for them.
    Would you like £100? Y

    Would you like £100 if the only way you can get it, is that your son dies in an accident at work and his employers give you £100 as compensation? N, in those circumstances I would rather not have it.

    Aha, so we have established that you DON'T want £100 after all. Gotcha.

    [No, actually, I would still like £100.]

    I see you are back on the alcohol again. My sympathies.
    I mean, that sounds like a relatively good analogy to Brexit.

    People were promised positives and no negatives, therefore it won.

    Now the negatives are clear, do a majority think it is still worth it? Probably not.

    But in positive only land, they would still take it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925

    eristdoof said:

    Sorry, just catching up on the news. Has Jo Johnson resigned?

    What from...Parliament, the Conservative Party, or just the family?

    Parliament. He will not be standing as the Conservative candidate for Orpington.
    There's going to be some cracking seats up for grabs for wannabe Tory MPs.....

    And on the LibDems getting lots of defectors in seats they won't win in October - they risk having a decent night and still losing seats!
    They could easily lose North Norfolk, and a resurgent SNP might grab one, or even two, Scottish seats. Streatham will be an interesting one, as will Heidi Allen's seat.

    On balance, though, they're likely to end up ahead. Sadly, the talented Mr Goldsmith is likely to lose Richmond Park. And Sheffield Hallam should be a shoo in. I think St Ives will probably flip. All in all, I'd expect the LibDems to undershoot expectations, but still end up in the 20s.
  • I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334

    Do they realise how very badly that is going to play with the voters here?

    Do they care? The EU just wants this over with.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Am i being stupid, but whats stopping labour saying no again? Given the bill that basically says Boris MUST call an exention then he'd be forced to resign by his own words.

    That is exactly the plan
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Corbo can simply walk into the Aye lobby on Monday while instructing every other Labour MP to go down the Red Lion for a few jars. Job done.

    How about a general election strategy meeting beginning immediately after Benn's vote that accidently overruns?

  • And yet the Opposition and the rebels could call a VONC and win it right now. But they choose not to because they fear a GE.

    Sure. But the point I'm making is that the PM is not treating the vote as if it was a confidence vote. If he was, he would already have resigned. It was a regular leadership powerplay followed by some politics, not a not a confidence motion or a motion the government decided to treat as a confidence motion.
    Resigning isn't the consequence of a confidence loss.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Scott_P said:
    Am i being stupid, but whats stopping labour saying no again? Given the bill that basically says Boris MUST call an exention then he'd be forced to resign by his own words.
    Nothing
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    eek said:

    eek said:


    Where are you seeing all this 'anger' out of interest? I don't think I live a sheltered life, yet I haven't met a single human being since the vote whom I could describe as 'angry' about Brexit - at worst there might be a kind of eye-rolling, bewildered annoyance.

    That genuinely surprises me.

    I am still friends on Facebook with a good number of (very) working class schoolmates from Manchester and their feeds, probably unsurprisingly, are full of rage at what is happening.

    What I haven't expected is a different sort of disgust from the middle class professional colleagues and friends I now work with who are much more 'remainery' without being on the extreme fringes of the sort you see on here.

    It is why I am pretty confident that remainers/Labourites are going to be utterly distraught the morning after the election when reality transpires to be nothing like the one sided twitter-lite echo chamber on here.
    To be honest it wouldn't surprise. The result of the next election will depend on who can get their voters out and while I suspect it may be harder for the Tories than they hope I'm not going to predict a conclusion nor bet (outside of badly mispriced Scottish seats where SNP gain is a strong likelihood).
    The risk to Labour is if Cummings can repeat his trick of getting pissed off voters who normally dont vote to turn out. Harder to do the second time of course.
    Even harder to do when the party they need to vote for was previously the voter's devil incarnate.
    Nah, Boris will get a let trom those voters hes seen as entertainment not politics.
    Really he should have done a stint on Love Island first.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    I appreciate BJ would hardly be expecting the Commission to chuck him a bone.. but this must hardly be welcome given the current legislative situation here..

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1169622498738147334

    Do they realise how very badly that is going to play with the voters here?

    It's a question of trust. And European Parliamentarians have long experience of just how untrustworthy Johnson can be.
    Having devious whatnots like Farage and clowns like Widdecombe in the parliament doesn't help our case, either.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Am i being stupid, but whats stopping labour saying no again? Given the bill that basically says Boris MUST call an exention then he'd be forced to resign by his own words.

    That is exactly the plan
    Thats what i thought.

    But what happens then?? Who the f-knows. corbyn gets to be PM I guess?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    Why doesn't Opposition vonc Boris now, take over govt, stop prorogation (why are we still proroguing anyway?), delay Brexit, and call GE on its terms?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    eek said:

    Corbo can simply walk into the Aye lobby on Monday while instructing every other Labour MP to go down the Red Lion for a few jars. Job done.

    How about a general election strategy meeting beginning immediately after Benn's vote that accidently overruns?
    It will probably get rather heated and McD can then adjourn the meeting to the Lion, so MPs can bury the hatchet over a couple of ales.

  • Resigning isn't the consequence of a confidence loss.

    Of course it is, if you can't call an election. You don't just stay in the job until further notice.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    The risk to Labour is if Cummings can repeat his trick of getting pissed off voters who normally dont vote to turn out. Harder to do the second time of course.

    Big point this. The 3m. My GE hopes for GTTO rest to a large extent on these people not bothering this time.
This discussion has been closed.