Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
Indeed, but things could get well messy. Nov looks too long and Oct too short to me. But not so much that my wallet is coming out. It stays right where it is - up in the attic under (as I recall) a pile of old school reports.
Morning all and quite clear that if the Remoaners pass their Surrender Bill today, Boris has to make clear he will not ask for an extension, law or no law. Lots of safe Tory seats now up for grabs to aspiring anti-EU candidates as we see the party axe those who think their opinions matter more than the 17.4 million. A people v parliament election is clearly looming and ordinary people will not appreciate Corbyn preventing a GE having called for one since 2017. The Tory manifesto could contain a clause stating that a re-elected Boris government will revoke today's Remoaners Surrender Act.
16.1 million people definitely did not want No Deal. I suspect that a maximum of only 5% of the 17.4 million wanted it.
That's wishful thinking. There's no reason to think a large number of the 17.4 million didn't want it. Whether they fully understood what the possible consequences are is another question.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Morning all and quite clear that if the Remoaners pass their Surrender Bill today, Boris has to make clear he will not ask for an extension, law or no law. Lots of safe Tory seats now up for grabs to aspiring anti-EU candidates as we see the party axe those who think their opinions matter more than the 17.4 million. A people v parliament election is clearly looming and ordinary people will not appreciate Corbyn preventing a GE having called for one since 2017. The Tory manifesto could contain a clause stating that a re-elected Boris government will revoke today's Remoaners Surrender Act.
16.1 million people definitely did not want No Deal. I suspect that a maximum of only 5% of the 17.4 million wanted it.
That's wishful thinking. There's no reason to think a large number of the 17.4 million didn't want it. Whether they fully understood what the possible consequences are is another question.
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
This is only true, if you believe that a no-deal is acceptable.
Basically, we now nothing until Corbyn speaks later, but he seemed quite supportive of an election last night.
I remain unconvinced the 21 ex-Tories would support (or fail to oppose) a Corbyn ministry now they know the Bill has passed. Losing the whip is one thing, but you’d presume doing that would start to hit them amongst their friends (I do think being looked down on my their mates will matter).
It also feels like Swinson is getting what she wanted without the need for Corbyn. That being the case, some sort of agreement over an election seems likely in the next two days.
However, like everyone on here I’m prone to expecting what I want to happen, and sometimes have a blind spot for the other point of view. I’m guessing it’ll all be clearer after PMQs, once Milne has a chance to brief.
The bill passing is not enough. At a minimum it needs to be effective in law which requires unambiguous commitments from the executive to comply with it, which is incompatible with the PMs election spin. That tension is what creates the likelihood for Corbyn shortly becoming PM - the rebel alliance have control and wont give it up, will the PM find a way to back down and implement the law?
But take the numbers a few posts up. Given what we know of Woodcock and co, noting that Hoey and Mann have nailed colours to the mast, and assuming you accept that at least half of the former Tories would never countenance Corbyn (I think higher); there is no way Corbyn makes headway without an election. And he has about 48 hours to decide. After that the Gvt will look more powerful than it is because of prorogation. I think he’ll find a way to support an election.
But as I say I’m acutely aware I (like the rest of us) am biased by what I’d like to see here so I wouldn’t bet on it (literally - I closed out my October election bet the other night).
There are no good outcomes (I would like the Tory and Labour parties, or at least one of them, to elect a sensible, co-operative mainstream leader rather than a divisive figure, but its not going to happen for years).
I expect the likes of Gauke and Hammond have spent very little time thinking of under what scenarios they would back a Corbyn govt in their lifetime so far.
Over the next couple of days they will inevitably be thinking about, at a time wen they feel betrayed and let down by the disgraceful treatment of the PM and the acquiesence of their former party.
Rationally they get more of what they want under Corbyn. Emotionally they may want revenge. In terms of honour, being forced out of the party removes their obligations.
They may have a different answer to Corbyn being PM than people are expecting.
Anyway, while there is nothing much happening in the world of politics, we have the fourth Ashes test.
I'd leave BBC Parliament on. It's going to rain an awful lot for the first three days. 3.5 for the draw seems like good value.
There is every chance that England will lose the Ashes on the back of 2 no results. Ashes matches in September in England. What were they thinking?
There was little option because of the World Cup.
Then we should have waited a year and had them next year. Our weather is just too dodgy after mid August. This series is or should be the apex of the sport, not an after thought.
The ECB is, one way and another, about as competent as the present 'Government'! There was no real need to have the Ashes series and the World Cup in the same year. And I won't start on the second class rubbish which is The Hundred.
That's unfair, your Venerable Cheerful Majesty.
Even Boris Johnson has never come up with something as daft as the Hundred.
Cummings' exam reforms, that's a trickier call.
I don't know Dr; county cricket starts at 10.30 because of the well-known fact that it gets dark earlier in the evenings in September. Test cricket doesn't. 11-6+. How much time will be lost to bad light? Off-topic Grandson 2 starts his A level course today, inc. History. I'm not, at time of writing sure what period he's focussing on; was talking about mediaeval England. Shall have to make sure he includes Glyndŵr.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
As always, my sympathies to anyone who feels abandoned by their party. While not one of life’s joiners, I recognise the wrench it must be for you.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
Indeed, but things could get well messy. Nov looks too long and Oct too short to me. But not so much that my wallet is coming out. It stays right where it is - up in the attic under (as I recall) a pile of old school reports.
Sounds like it is a similar place my beloved Scottish lady wife keeps her purse !!!!!!
Morning all and quite clear that if the Remoaners pass their Surrender Bill today, Boris has to make clear he will not ask for an extension, law or no law. Lots of safe Tory seats now up for grabs to aspiring anti-EU candidates as we see the party axe those who think their opinions matter more than the 17.4 million. A people v parliament election is clearly looming and ordinary people will not appreciate Corbyn preventing a GE having called for one since 2017. The Tory manifesto could contain a clause stating that a re-elected Boris government will revoke today's Remoaners Surrender Act.
16.1 million people definitely did not want No Deal. I suspect that a maximum of only 5% of the 17.4 million wanted it.
That's wishful thinking. There's no reason to think a large number of the 17.4 million didn't want it. Whether they fully understood what the possible consequences are is another question.
Given that a No Deal Brexit is BXP policy we can probably say at least 15% of the population (say 5million) are happy with / don't understand what a No Deal Brexit will mean.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
As always, my sympathies to anyone who feels abandoned by their party. While not one of life’s joiners, I recognise the wrench it must be for you.
Thank you Alastair.
As you know I have tried to give Boris a chance but yesterday blew that away
Basically, we now nothing until Corbyn speaks later, but he seemed quite supportive of an election last night.
I remain unconvinced the 21 ex-Tories would support (or fail to oppose) a Corbyn ministry now they know the Bill has passed. Losing the whip is one thing, but you’d presume doing that would start to hit them amongst their friends (I do think being looked down on my their mates will matter).
It also feels like Swinson is getting what she wanted without the need for Corbyn. That being the case, some sort of agreement over an election seems likely in the next two days.
However, like everyone on here I’m prone to expecting what I want to happen, and sometimes have a blind spot for the other point of view. I’m guessing it’ll all be clearer after PMQs, once Milne has a chance to brief.
The bill passing is not enough. At a minimum it needs to be effective in law which requires unambiguous commitments from the executive to comply with it, which is incompatible with the PMs election spin. That tension is what creates the likelihood for Corbyn shortly becoming PM - the rebel alliance have control and wont give it up, will the PM find a way to back down and implement the law?
But take the numbers a few posts up
But as I say I’m acutely aware I (like the rest of us) am biased by what I’d like to see here so I wouldn’t bet on it (literally - I closed out my October election bet the other night).
There are no good outcomes (I would like the Tory and Labour parties, or at least one of them, to elect a sensible, co-operative mainstream leader rather than a divisive figure, but its not going to happen for years).
I expect the likes of Gauke and Hammond have spent very little time thinking of under what scenarios they would back a Corbyn govt in their lifetime so far.
Over the next couple of days they will inevitably be thinking about, at a time wen they feel betrayed and let down by the disgraceful treatment of the PM and the acquiesence of their former party.
Rationally they get more of what they want under Corbyn. Emotionally they may want revenge. In terms of honour, being forced out of the party removes their obligations.
They may have a different answer to Corbyn being PM than people are expecting.
Fair point. But it would take almost all of them, and look at Rory Stewart’s comments this morning for example.
A cynical person might think this govt wants no responsibility for delivering Brexit so is self sabotaging in order to hand the torch over to the opposition to sort out the mess. This allows the PM and his merry elites to cry treason and blame everyone else but themselves.
Yep - it's why you want Boris to remain in charge as the figurehead but utterly unable to control events. Especially as the events are of his own making.
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Morning all and quite clear that if the Remoaners pass their Surrender Bill today, Boris has to make clear he will not ask for an extension, law or no law. Lots of safe Tory seats now up for grabs to aspiring anti-EU candidates as we see the party axe those who think their opinions matter more than the 17.4 million. A people v parliament election is clearly looming and ordinary people will not appreciate Corbyn preventing a GE having called for one since 2017. The Tory manifesto could contain a clause stating that a re-elected Boris government will revoke today's Remoaners Surrender Act.
16.1 million people definitely did not want No Deal. I suspect that a maximum of only 5% of the 17.4 million wanted it.
That's wishful thinking. There's no reason to think a large number of the 17.4 million didn't want it. Whether they fully understood what the possible consequences are is another question.
I defended JRM yesterday. And, to be fair, he is doubled up uncomfortably in other images - clearly trying to listen to the audio speakers in the woodwork.
However some photos show his lolling head nowhere near the bench. He was, apparently, just loafing. Dick.
I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
Its a moot point, if the PM refuses to get royal consent and the Queen allows this, parliament will install a new PM, who will do it.
Yes, I think that the Corbyn caretaker option will then kick in - it's moved from the "Impossible!" category to the "Hmm, I dunno" category already, and the Government refusing to allow a majority in both Houses to carry a Bill would IMO kick it over the line.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
As always, my sympathies to anyone who feels abandoned by their party. While not one of life’s joiners, I recognise the wrench it must be for you.
Thank you Alastair.
As you know I have tried to give Boris a chance but yesterday blew that away
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
As always, my sympathies to anyone who feels abandoned by their party. While not one of life’s joiners, I recognise the wrench it must be for you.
Thank you Alastair.
As you know I have tried to give Boris a chance but yesterday blew that away
I shall comment further later on
Good luck, Big G. Sorry I called you “a moron” yesterday. Heightened emotions etc.
That’s a very good article indeed and should be required reading, no matter what your worldview.
Agreed.
Interesting he offers EEA as a possible compromise if Boris's current strategy doesn't work.
Well that’s clearly not going to fly with the headbangers until they’ve had buckets of cold sick poured over them by the electorate, and maybe not even then. A bit like those Labour MPs who have just proposed Theresa May’s deal, the likelihood is that Leavers will realise too late their best option.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
I defended JRM yesterday. And, to be fair, he is doubled up uncomfortably in other images - clearly trying to listen to the audio speakers in the woodwork.
However some photos show his lolling head nowhere near the bench. He was, apparently, just loafing. Dick.
Yep - there is no speaker at the end of a row - look for the "roses"
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
a hung Parliament will solve nothing and has a sell by date of 31st Jan 2020, Then what ?
I defended JRM yesterday. And, to be fair, he is doubled up uncomfortably in other images - clearly trying to listen to the audio speakers in the woodwork.
However some photos show his lolling head nowhere near the bench. He was, apparently, just loafing. Dick.
The speakers are behind the grills, not at the end of the benches, but visible about 3 feet from where his head is.
That northern working class hero is just being a dick.
You'll be cheering on the new geriatric Top Gun film then.
It will be absolute garbage. There is no way Maverick could still be a Captain at his age anyway as the USN has a ruthless "up or out" policy that we would do well to emulate.
I'll be skipping the sex scenes with Kelly McGillis this time.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
You're sure these adjectives apply most to Clarke among the people we have on view?
They apply to far too many British politicians. David Cameron, for one. And we are all suffering the consequences. But yes, they certainly apply to Ken, too, especially in the pomp of his Maastricht-era europhilia.
Morning Malc. He is indeed. It sickens me and is a huge gift to the SNP
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
It is clear that he and Cummy have no intention of negotiating. They want a crash out to throw some red meat to the headbanging entryists in the Tory Party that put this incompetent oaf in power
I'm not his biggest fan but I think way too much is being made of this. He's a tall guy and was trying to listen to the loudspeaker behind him.
Not that it will do any good of course because it makes a lovely photo.
There is no speaker behind his head, they are in the middle of the seats behind the round "roses". You can see where they are in the seat behind him.
I know where they are. Being on the same level as the speaker makes it much easier to hear them.
The real criticism of Mogg yesterday should be for his condescension and arrogance in playing the constitutional improper and convention flouting cards, which royally wound MPs up.
On that Malcolm, we can agree. He is showing absolute contempt, not just for his parliamentary colleagues, but everyone in the country too. Who in their right mind thought this odious individual appropriate to be an MP let alone hold high office?
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
As always, my sympathies to anyone who feels abandoned by their party. While not one of life’s joiners, I recognise the wrench it must be for you.
Thank you Alastair.
As you know I have tried to give Boris a chance but yesterday blew that away
I shall comment further later on
Good luck, Big G. Sorry I called you “a moron” yesterday. Heightened emotions etc.
I know and thank you for your apology.
We all need to be careful in our expressions on 'heightened emotions' as you say. All the best
Boris has the Lords blocking Benn's Surrender Law in his back pocket. He can go into the prorogation period. He can come out of it still with My Deal or No Deal as the options. And no election until after 31st October.
Instead, Boris has offered Corbyn a chance to put the decision to the people before the end of October - with a general election. But with No Deal still an option (as it would be anyway, because if he gets a majority, he repeals Benn.*)
Pop quiz: what do you do, Jeremy?
*subject to the caveat of the Remainer Lords then playing silly buggers trying to keep Benn alive.
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
a hung Parliament will solve nothing and has a sell by date of 31st Jan 2020, Then what ?
Another election! With hindsight the country should have 1) voted to remain 2) once it voted to leave give Theresa May her increased majority to deliver Brexit, and have negotiating power vs the EU. The voters got it wrong twice in a row. Whilst we (rightly) blame the politicians and have negligible control over elections as individuals, collectively the electorate has created significant problems for the politicians.
I'm not his biggest fan but I think way too much is being made of this. He's a tall guy and was trying to listen to the loudspeaker behind him.
Not that it will do any good of course because it makes a lovely photo.
There is no speaker behind his head, they are in the middle of the seats behind the round "roses". You can see where they are in the seat behind him.
I know where they are. Being on the same level as the speaker makes it much easier to hear them.
The real criticism of Mogg yesterday should be for his condescension and arrogance in playing the constitutional improper and convention flouting cards, which royally wound MPs up.
Not this.
That is a pretty good explanation. And he did seem very awkward when he was creased up, trying to listen. So maybe he went for the reclining option instead.
However he arrogantly disregarded, or didn’t care, how this would look on TV. So he’s still something of a dick.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Your post is just unnecessary and takes no account of the emotion on this.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
Morning all and quite clear that if the Remoaners pass their Surrender Bill today, Boris has to make clear he will not ask for an extension, law or no law. Lots of safe Tory seats now up for grabs to aspiring anti-EU candidates as we see the party axe those who think their opinions matter more than the 17.4 million. A people v parliament election is clearly looming and ordinary people will not appreciate Corbyn preventing a GE having called for one since 2017. The Tory manifesto could contain a clause stating that a re-elected Boris government will revoke today's Remoaners Surrender Act.
16.1 million people definitely did not want No Deal. I suspect that a maximum of only 5% of the 17.4 million wanted it.
That's wishful thinking. There's no reason to think a large number of the 17.4 million didn't want it. Whether they fully understood what the possible consequences are is another question.
Though it only requires a small proportion of the 17.4 million finding it unacceptable to produce a majority of the electorate against No Deal.
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
a hung Parliament will solve nothing and has a sell by date of 31st Jan 2020, Then what ?
Another election! With hindsight the country should have 1) voted to remain 2) once it voted to leave give Theresa May her increased majority to deliver Brexit, and have negotiating power vs the EU. The voters got it wrong twice in a row. Whilst we (rightly) blame the politicians and have negligible control over elections as individuals, collectively the electorate has created significant problems for the politicians.
Jesus if youre at the voters got it wrong level youve lost the plot and are heading in to Brecht territory.
The voters voted as they saw it, the politicans have fked it up.
youve gone from None of the above to Just do what were told.
You're sure these adjectives apply most to Clarke among the people we have on view?
They apply to far too many British politicians. David Cameron, for one. And we are all suffering the consequences. But yes, they certainly apply to Ken, too, especially in the pomp of his Maastricht-era europhilia.
If you think Ken Clarke was ever lazy you clearly know nothing about him. Laid back perhaps, but lazy definitely not. Besides @NickPalmer, which adjectives should we use for Corbyn? Lazy, thick, inept, bombastic, inarticulate...the list goes on and on! Why oh why does the Labour Party not have a half decent leader at this crucial time?
Boris has the Lords blocking Benn's Surrender Law in his back pocket. He can go into the prorogation period. He can come out of it still with My Deal or No Deal as the options. And no election until after 31st October.
Instead, Boris has offered Corbyn a chance to put the decision to the people before the end of October - with a general election. But with No Deal still an option (as it would be anyway, because if he gets a majority, he repeals Benn.*)
Pop quiz: what do you do, Jeremy?
*subject to the caveat of the Remainer Lords then playing silly buggers trying to keep Benn alive.
He doesn't need the Lords to repeal Benn. A Commons vote to leave without a deal or with one (possible in a majority Parliament with hardcore Tory Remainers purged) plus 2 days of Lords debate will suffice.
Morning all and quite clear that if the Remoaners pass their Surrender Bill today, Boris has to make clear he will not ask for an extension, law or no law. Lots of safe Tory seats now up for grabs to aspiring anti-EU candidates as we see the party axe those who think their opinions matter more than the 17.4 million. A people v parliament election is clearly looming and ordinary people will not appreciate Corbyn preventing a GE having called for one since 2017. The Tory manifesto could contain a clause stating that a re-elected Boris government will revoke today's Remoaners Surrender Act.
16.1 million people definitely did not want No Deal. I suspect that a maximum of only 5% of the 17.4 million wanted it.
That's wishful thinking. There's no reason to think a large number of the 17.4 million didn't want it. Whether they fully understood what the possible consequences are is another question.
Though it only requires a small proportion of the 17.4 million finding it unacceptable to produce a majority of the electorate against No Deal.
There is a majority against No Deal, because there is a majority against everything.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
Yes that’s true. However I do not think it impossible the Tory party can reunite after Brexit (whatever becomes of it). Indeed it’s quite likely. The Tory party as a brand is too big and too solid. The BXP won’t replace them.
Until Brexit is done or dumped tho, I cannot see any prospect of unity.
Morning. If Boris is so confident of a snap election victory why does he not accept the A50 extension? After he has won the election on a no deal ticket he can no deal on 31 January.
Morning Malc. He is indeed. It sickens me and is a huge gift to the SNP
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
Anyway have a great day
Same to you G, hard to understand what more the SNP can do to improve Scotland with limited resources. Far too many people think they have powers when in fact they have very limited scope in most area as powers are retained. People obviously easily forget the past under Labour and Tories , they would soon know how well SNP have done if we got either back in power. Luckily there is little to zero chance of that for a long time unless we are independent and have real Scottish parties other than the SNP. Hard to believe that not one Scottish Tory MP voted for last night's amendment, they should be ashamed.
It is clear that he and Cummy have no intention of negotiating. They want a crash out to throw some red meat to the headbanging entryists in the Tory Party that put this incompetent oaf in power
There are no negotiations. Anyone believing that No Deal is just a negotiating position is deluded. It is policy. That is the point of the proroguation.
The only question is whether Bozo can survive long enough as PM to deliver it. I think he probably can, but will be remembered as Britains own General Francisco Solano Lopez.
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
a hung Parliament will solve nothing and has a sell by date of 31st Jan 2020, Then what ?
Another election! With hindsight the country should have 1) voted to remain 2) once it voted to leave give Theresa May her increased majority to deliver Brexit, and have negotiating power vs the EU. The voters got it wrong twice in a row. Whilst we (rightly) blame the politicians and have negligible control over elections as individuals, collectively the electorate has created significant problems for the politicians.
Jesus if youre at the voters got it wrong level youve lost the plot and are heading in to Brecht territory.
The voters voted as they saw it, the politicans have fked it up.
youve gone from None of the above to Just do what were told.
I do wish you would learn to use punctuation. It is difficult enough to understand your point of view without further complicating it.
My rough guess on those numbers, Labour loses all seats bar Edinburgh South Lib Dems pick up Fife NE (obviously) Cons lose their 3 Lib Dem mass switch seats from 2017 plus at least 5 more?
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
a hung Parliament will solve nothing and has a sell by date of 31st Jan 2020, Then what ?
Another election! With hindsight the country should have 1) voted to remain 2) once it voted to leave give Theresa May her increased majority to deliver Brexit, and have negotiating power vs the EU. The voters got it wrong twice in a row. Whilst we (rightly) blame the politicians and have negligible control over elections as individuals, collectively the electorate has created significant problems for the politicians.
Jesus if youre at the voters got it wrong level youve lost the plot and are heading in to Brecht territory.
The voters voted as they saw it, the politicans have fked it up.
youve gone from None of the above to Just do what were told.
I do wish you would learn to use punctuation. It is difficult enough to understand your point of view without further complicating it.
Ive ( told ! you enough times,, grammar is for rule takers ;;;;.
Boris has the Lords blocking Benn's Surrender Law in his back pocket. He can go into the prorogation period. He can come out of it still with My Deal or No Deal as the options. And no election until after 31st October.
Instead, Boris has offered Corbyn a chance to put the decision to the people before the end of October - with a general election. But with No Deal still an option (as it would be anyway, because if he gets a majority, he repeals Benn.*)
Pop quiz: what do you do, Jeremy?
*subject to the caveat of the Remainer Lords then playing silly buggers trying to keep Benn alive.
Upon proroguation aren't all bills underway in the Lords automatically passed?
My rough guess on those numbers, Labour loses all seats bar Edinburgh South Lib Dems pick up Fife NE (obviously) Cons lose their 3 Lib Dem mass switch seats from 2017 plus at least 5 more?
Swing is LD to SNP on those numbers, Fife stays SNP on uns Cons hold Berwickshire, Dunfriesshire and Aberdeenshire West Lab back to unicycle territory
Morning Malc. He is indeed. It sickens me and is a huge gift to the SNP
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
Anyway have a great day
Nationalists who vote against independence because they don't like the SNP are not displaying a great deal of intelligence...
It will be absolute garbage. There is no way Maverick could still be a Captain at his age anyway as the USN has a ruthless "up or out" policy that we would do well to emulate.
Listening to the radio reports this morning sounds like you (and @CaptainBuzzkill ) are going to have to dust off your aviators.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
Amber Rudd respected the three line whip just as in the 90s even Cash, Redwood and IDS voted for Maastricht when it was a confidence motion.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Simply and uncharitably incorrect.
Nope. Do you want me to dig out the posts?
Give it a try - and you will realise that Big_G has announced his intention to resign several times, but not pulled the eject button until now.
All of that is pretty well irrelevant when set against the way the current leadership has driven loyal and committed members of decades standing to abandon the party.
Morning Malc. He is indeed. It sickens me and is a huge gift to the SNP
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
Anyway have a great day
Same to you G, hard to understand what more the SNP can do to improve Scotland with limited resources. Far too many people think they have powers when in fact they have very limited scope in most area as powers are retained. People obviously easily forget the past under Labour and Tories , they would soon know how well SNP have done if we got either back in power. Luckily there is little to zero chance of that for a long time unless we are independent and have real Scottish parties other than the SNP. Hard to believe that not one Scottish Tory MP voted for last night's amendment, they should be ashamed.
As you know Malc, the time comes when a single party dominating the government over years (SNP) and here in Wales (labour) sees the shine eventually coming off and disenchantment sets in.
I expect labour to continue to decline in Wales as they have been in power so long, and with our NHS and Education on it's knees the resentment is tangible
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
“Rebels” aren’t the issue - it’s the ideological absolutists who are the problem - in any party.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Simply and uncharitably incorrect.
The Casino Royale's of this world are the typically unpleasant "face" of the Conservative Party now. It is Conservative in name only. The Brexit Party Lite, or Bluekip it is, certainly for the time being, until the entryists and fuckwits have sucked the lifeblood out of it and gone home to their war comics and secret dungeon porn
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
“Rebels” aren’t the issue - it’s the ideological absolutists who are the problem - in any party.
Do you think John Major's behaviour over the ERM falls into that bracket?
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
“Rebels” aren’t the issue - it’s the ideological absolutists who are the problem - in any party.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
I think peeling off those who supported Benn would do the trick.
Outside of Europe, there really hasn't been much by way of falling out in the Tory Party over direction. Look at the voting record of those who have left the Conservative Party for the LibDems. How many LibDem activists are going to feel comfortable putting in the hard yards to keep those guys in their team?
Morning Malc. He is indeed. It sickens me and is a huge gift to the SNP
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
Anyway have a great day
Nationalists who vote against independence because they don't like the SNP are not displaying a great deal of intelligence...
You would be surprised how many SNP supporters will not back Independence. We have several dedicated SNP supporters in our family but reject Independence
In Scotland the SNP are the party of government but of course that can be counter productive as they get all the blame as things go wrong, which they do
You can still lay an election this year at 1.18 this morning.
And Oct still as short as 1.7. That surprises me slightly. Looks no more than 50/50 to me.
Corbyns position is support GE once Benn has royal assent
and what difference does it make ?
If Corbyn wins he will have tied his own hands . If BoJo wins hell just reverse the decision. If its a hung Parlt theyll just waste the time and go off on conferences and their Christmas holidays. Its a nonsense.
Well it is odds on the next parliament is hung so the idea it is easy to reverse is not true in the majority of cases.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
a hung Parliament will solve nothing and has a sell by date of 31st Jan 2020, Then what ?
Another election! With hindsight the country should have 1) voted to remain 2) once it voted to leave give Theresa May her increased majority to deliver Brexit, and have negotiating power vs the EU. The voters got it wrong twice in a row. Whilst we (rightly) blame the politicians and have negligible control over elections as individuals, collectively the electorate has created significant problems for the politicians.
Jesus if youre at the voters got it wrong level youve lost the plot and are heading in to Brecht territory.
The voters voted as they saw it, the politicans have fked it up.
youve gone from None of the above to Just do what were told.
Voting to leave, then removing the mandate of the PM to negotiate with Brussels by reducing her majority has caused immense problems for the country.
Yes individual voters voted as they saw fit and with good intent, but collectively those decisions damaged the country, if we were going to vote Brexit, we should have backed the government to negotiate it for us.
Morning Malc. He is indeed. It sickens me and is a huge gift to the SNP
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
Anyway have a great day
Same to you G, hard to understand what more the SNP can do to improve Scotland with limited resources. Far too many people think they have powers when in fact they have very limited scope in most area as powers are retained. People obviously easily forget the past under Labour and Tories , they would soon know how well SNP have done if we got either back in power. Luckily there is little to zero chance of that for a long time unless we are independent and have real Scottish parties other than the SNP. Hard to believe that not one Scottish Tory MP voted for last night's amendment, they should be ashamed.
As you know Malc, the time comes when a single party dominating the government over years (SNP) and here in Wales (labour) sees the shine eventually coming off and disenchantment sets in.
I expect labour to continue to decline in Wales as they have been in power so long, and with our NHS and Education on it's knees the resentment is tangible
Labour have done the same to Wales as they did in Scotland previously. Scotland under SNP on the other hand is looking better and hard to see any change of government in the long term, 12 years and more popular than ever is a good record.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
Not really. I've seen this stuff on the left - it's like peeling an onion. They purge one layer of rebels, and a few weeks later discover that the next layer isn't quite ideologically correct either. Amber Rudd, for example, clearly has a somewhat ambiguous position.
Indeed. There are quite a few moderates left. I suspect they are biding their time until the inevitable meltdown of the most incompetent fool to ever hold office comes to its totally inevitable conclusion. Their time may come when the clown on the opposite bench competes for worst ever PM for a short while.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Simply and uncharitably incorrect.
Nope. Do you want me to dig out the posts?
Give it a try - and you will realise that Big_G has announced his intention to resign several times, but not pulled the eject button until now.
All of that is pretty well irrelevant when set against the way the current leadership has driven loyal and committed members of decades standing to abandon the party.
He isn't a loyal and committed member of decades standing - you've got that wrong as well.
He's a fair weather friend and a massive attention seeker.
I defended JRM yesterday. And, to be fair, he is doubled up uncomfortably in other images - clearly trying to listen to the audio speakers in the woodwork.
However some photos show his lolling head nowhere near the bench. He was, apparently, just loafing. Dick.
This is a man who is accustomed to projecting a public image but who is unaccustomed to being on view.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Your post is just unnecessary and takes no account of the emotion on this.
You do seem to enjoy being unpleasant, sadly
No, your emotion is a charade (you've betrayed the party many times) and you are a needy attention seeker.
I call you out on it because you are a needy attention seeker who offers almost no value to this site. You think being polite about that is enough.
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
How many times have you resigned now?
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
Simply and uncharitably incorrect.
The Casino Royale's of this world are the typically unpleasant "face" of the Conservative Party now. It is Conservative in name only. The Brexit Party Lite, or Bluekip it is, certainly for the time being, until the entryists and fuckwits have sucked the lifeblood out of it and gone home to their war comics and secret dungeon porn
I think you are misunderstanding Casino Royale who as far as I can tell is just deeply upset about what is happening to Party and Country.
Comments
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1169134905713971206?s=19
I am writing to resign my membership of the party with immediate effect
Yesterday, the party took leave of its senses with Boris’s performance at the dispatch box all bluster and no answers, Jacob Rees Mogg in an act of crass stupidity lounging across the green benches and providing gold dust for a GE campaign to our opponents, not least of which the Sots, who lost no time on capitalising by it headlining the photograph in most Scots papers.
However, worst of all how on earth can Boris justify withdrawing the whip from 21 dedicated conservatives, most of whom voted for Theresa’s deal while the ERG MP’s, who must carry a large part of the blame for where we are, are lauded and indeed behind this act of wanton revenge . How can our party withdraw the whip from Ken Clarke and send him onto the opposition benches, it is just so unacceptable and sickening.
In all of this though, we cannot understand how we have allowed the poisonous Dominic Cummings into No 10. He is turning our party into the Nigel Farage tribute act and it is so depressing
I will not be joining another party but shed a tear for my once great party and only hope I may one day see the One Nation Conservative party again but at my age (76) I will not hold my breath.
Yours sincerely
I expect the likes of Gauke and Hammond have spent very little time thinking of under what scenarios they would back a Corbyn govt in their lifetime so far.
Over the next couple of days they will inevitably be thinking about, at a time wen they feel betrayed and let down by the disgraceful treatment of the PM and the acquiesence of their former party.
Rationally they get more of what they want under Corbyn. Emotionally they may want revenge. In terms of honour, being forced out of the party removes their obligations.
They may have a different answer to Corbyn being PM than people are expecting.
So there was a reason JRM was in the backbenches for so long then?
Off-topic Grandson 2 starts his A level course today, inc. History. I'm not, at time of writing sure what period he's focussing on; was talking about mediaeval England. Shall have to make sure he includes Glyndŵr.
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1168887696846204930?s=19
As you know I have tried to give Boris a chance but yesterday blew that away
I shall comment further later on
https://order-order.com/2019/09/04/revealed-lords-plan-block-remainer-legislation/
Then what?
Not that it will do any good of course because it makes a lovely photo.
(Not everyone will agree, but I also think Boris actually wants an extension, imposed on him by parliament, and win a majority to give him 3 months negotiating with the EU, without having to negotiate with parliament at the same time. That scenario could produce a realistic Brexit outcome he would be happy to own.)
You said you had a few weeks ago when Richard Nabavi and David Herdson did.
Maybe we'll see a third resignation in mid October when it looks like No Deal is imminent following the EU council meeting.
I also want to win the lottery. A deal agreeable to all parties has proven to be a unicorn.
However some photos show his lolling head nowhere near the bench. He was, apparently, just loafing. Dick.
I'm trying to be optimistic.
That northern working class hero is just being a dick.
Not that I want to be unkind or anything.
I expect the SNP will whitewash Scotland in any upcoming GE and I would vote for them myself if I was still in Scotland, as they do put Scots first and have great pride in their Nation, understandably so
However, the comments on my families facebook and Whats app group are far from complimentary about the SNP running of Scotland and do indicate that an Independence campaign is by no means certain to win Independence
Anyway have a great day
The real criticism of Mogg yesterday should be for his condescension and arrogance in playing the constitutional improper and convention flouting cards, which royally wound MPs up.
Not this.
We all need to be careful in our expressions on 'heightened emotions' as you say. All the best
Boris has the Lords blocking Benn's Surrender Law in his back pocket. He can go into the prorogation period. He can come out of it still with My Deal or No Deal as the options. And no election until after 31st October.
Instead, Boris has offered Corbyn a chance to put the decision to the people before the end of October - with a general election. But with No Deal still an option (as it would be anyway, because if he gets a majority, he repeals Benn.*)
Pop quiz: what do you do, Jeremy?
*subject to the caveat of the Remainer Lords then playing silly buggers trying to keep Benn alive.
However he arrogantly disregarded, or didn’t care, how this would look on TV. So he’s still something of a dick.
You do seem to enjoy being unpleasant, sadly
The voters voted as they saw it, the politicans have fked it up.
youve gone from None of the above to Just do what were told.
Yes that’s true. However I do not think it impossible the Tory party can reunite after Brexit (whatever becomes of it). Indeed it’s quite likely. The Tory party as a brand is too big and too solid. The BXP won’t replace them.
Until Brexit is done or dumped tho, I cannot see any prospect of unity.
The only question is whether Bozo can survive long enough as PM to deliver it. I think he probably can, but will be remembered as Britains own General Francisco Solano Lopez.
Labour loses all seats bar Edinburgh South
Lib Dems pick up Fife NE (obviously)
Cons lose their 3 Lib Dem mass switch seats from 2017 plus at least 5 more?
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1169141320453185536
Cons hold Berwickshire, Dunfriesshire and Aberdeenshire West
Lab back to unicycle territory
All of that is pretty well irrelevant when set against the way the current leadership has driven loyal and committed members of decades standing to abandon the party.
I expect labour to continue to decline in Wales as they have been in power so long, and with our NHS and Education on it's knees the resentment is tangible
X > 25 (https://news.sky.com/story/labour-mps-warn-jeremy-corbyn-against-supporting-a-second-brexit-referendum-11684197)
And Y > 0.
That means Z needs to be at least 20. Seems a stretch.
NEW THREAD
https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1169146432252784641
Outside of Europe, there really hasn't been much by way of falling out in the Tory Party over direction. Look at the voting record of those who have left the Conservative Party for the LibDems. How many LibDem activists are going to feel comfortable putting in the hard yards to keep those guys in their team?
In Scotland the SNP are the party of government but of course that can be counter productive as they get all the blame as things go wrong, which they do
Yes individual voters voted as they saw fit and with good intent, but collectively those decisions damaged the country, if we were going to vote Brexit, we should have backed the government to negotiate it for us.
He's a fair weather friend and a massive attention seeker.
It's a photo that will define him.
I call you out on it because you are a needy attention seeker who offers almost no value to this site. You think being polite about that is enough.
It isn't. I have no respect for you.
Starmer says by email there is a General Election.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1169147170039259136