Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
Honest technical question.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
Most remainers on here said they would be happy with that outcome EFTA/EEA as to it’s practicalities I don’t know but I think Johnson would be toast
I don't think there's any doubt that Johnson is toast. It's just a question of whether he'll still be warm when he's buttered.
1. Corbyn as their offering for PM 2. No credible Brexit policy 3. No credible action on anti-semitism
The timing is not exactly propitious. But the only thing that has kept them together has been the end point of a general election. They can hardly flinch from it now.
But the Conservatives are not in much of a better state. Boris et al threatening deselection for voting against the government after their repeated voting against the government on the same issue - sometimes for decades - is hilarious.
The Brexiteres are undemocratic scum. Shame on them, and shame on the once-great Conservative Party for putting such scum in power.
They won a contested referendum
They won a contested leadership election
They have clearly stated that the HoC has the right to no confidence them and put a new government in place
Which bit is “undemocratic ”?
And “scum” is not constructive. They are politicians that you disagree with. That doesn’t make them sub-human.
No. What 'leave' meant in the referendum was unclear, and May's deal satisfied it for many leavers, including many prominent ones on here. It was a typically British compromise. The 2017 Conservative manifesto was mainly about a deal. The Conservative leadership election was infiltrated by entryists, as we saw on here. And the polling is not exactly favourable for no-deal.
So given the potential consequences of a no-deal, I'd say going for one given the above is utterly undemocratic. But at least we know you'll be safe of the consequences, whatever happens.
'Scum' is very constructive when talking about people threatening others for actions they have just done themselves. And those who support them knowing this.
What “leave” meant was very very clear
It meant leave.
Under Article 50 the U.K. and the EU had 2 years to agree a new set of arrangements
They failed
So we leave without a new set of arrangements
(And please don’t attack me personally. Playing the man not the ball is never pleasant)
Is it not more logical to say that given no satisfactory means of leaving can be found that we should simply stay? Especially as it was divisions amongst the leave advocates that prevented a satisfactory arrangement being agreed.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
I always find it easy to identify a Leaver walking in the street: bold, confident steps, an erect spine, proud demeanour and a neatly clipped moustache. .
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
First off if I was the EU hierarchy I would blanche at the thought of UK coming back. But as opposed to the WA which I don't think will be changed I nevertheless believe that a further bespoke deal could be arranged if the UK wanted to rejoin but as we have seen, within one or two or three electoral cycles there could be another "out" legislature and hence again I think the EU would be super wary of any agreement or negotiation.
The bridges have been burnt and we are out. I just hope we make the best of it which of course kicks off with some kind of deal to set us on the road to leaving.
I agree. Once we’re out, we’re out. Life will move on. The EU won’t want us back - too much grief - and we won’t want the National Anguish of another referendum, and yet more division.
The only way the EU would accept us back is if they could be sure we wouldn’t try to leave again; they’d want us locked in. Like Greece. They’d want us in the Euro.
We’ll never accept that. So, yes, when the door slams it won’t open again for a very l9ng time, if ever.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
Indeed. Remainers are good in bed, well-toned musculature, good teeth and have fine singing voices.
They have to say that. Otherwise the Attorney-General, Solicitor-General and Justice Ministers would all have to resign. In good conscience.
I suspect we are going to have a fight over when a Bill gets presented for Royal Assent to become the law, however. I can imagine Dominic Cummins arguing that the Govt. has no obligation to immediately submit a Bill that isn't part of its legislative programme.....
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
Honest technical question.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
I am wondering about this too. Less about getting the unanimous agreement of the EU27, which will be needed after the A50 process is run out. As Pro Rata points out 27 extra pounds of flesh (with a few discounted) should get the deal. More on the legality of the Transition Period, which is the unacknowledged Brexit must-have from the UK's Pov. This legality was somewhat dodgily founded on the A50. There's nothing in the EU treaties that provides for one after Brexit.
If Johnson signs the WA he will be doing what the EU wants, so maybe they will find a a way to sort out the legality of the Transition Period. But I think it could be a problem.
I shall ignore your tragic little episode of ad hominem, and address the main point.
Yes. I’ve read the Rogers piece. It’s good. He’s one of the cleverer Remainers. TMay was indeed an idiot for booting him.
I agree with a lot of what he says - economically. Clearly No Deal will be significantly nasty. As I’ve said before, my prediction is that No Deal would be less unpleasant than expected on day 1, but in the medium term it would do a lot of harm - the analogy of a slow puncture is apt. In the long term we’d be fine. But we’d have experienced a lot of avoidable grief.
What Rogers doesn’t get, I think - and he’s not alone - is how (as I said down thread) Brexit has morphed into a revolution. A cultural revolution. Britain is the first major country to try and reverse the ratchet of globalisation, to stop the relentless march to post-democratic elitocracy and depose the Dynasty of Davos.
It may be mad or misguided but it is important, and historically fascinating.
And now, the pool. Kalimera.
I think the mistake you make is in confusing the institutions (such as the EU, WTO, global standards bodies) set up to manage globalisation, ameliorate its impact and subject it to some democratic accountability, with globalisation itself. Brexit is part of a programme by extreme capitalists to unshackle themselves from any kind of global rules, and unleash a more pure form of globalisation on the rest of humanity. The fact that people may have voted for it believing they were better protecting themselves from globalisation is one of its many tragic facets. It is a revolution, but in the exact opposite direction to the one you suggest.
BTW I was aiming for a humourous put down of your verbose prose style rather than attacking you as a person, but if you took offence then I apologise unreservedly. At least you are still on holiday. Also, I have never accused you of being SeanT, so that should count in my favour.
Pretty simple for the govt - ask for an unreasonable extension with unreasonable demands.
In the unlikely event the EU agrees then don’t accept.
Remainers are wasting their time.
Presumably if Boris plays silly buggers they could always pass another law - eg if the EU propose XYZ, but Boris declines, they could pass a law to accept it. I'm not sure whether you'd need to get everybody back together for an emergency Council of Ministers meeting, but I guess that could be arranged if absolutely necessary.
I’ve been in Greece a few weeks now. Reading history as I go.
What I now realise - and which I didn’t before - is that Brexit is far far beyond a reset of our trading arrangements, it is a genuine revolution. Hopefully, it will be a very British revolution - largely bloodless - but it is a revolution, nonetheless. The ancien regime - the Europhile elite, the rich metropolitan Remainers - will be sidelined. Or even swept away. Hence their cries of pain, as they subconsciously sense this.
All revolutions are painful. This will be no different. But if Brexit works - in the long term - it will threaten the order everywhere. This is why elites in other countries hate it, too.
It's more a question of one elite replacing another, tbh.
Maybe. But I see, to my surprise, that Tony Blair has reached the same conclusion as me, this morning. He’s called Brexit a ‘moment of revolution’ in a speech.
Pretty simple for the govt - ask for an unreasonable extension with unreasonable demands.
In the unlikely event the EU agrees then don’t accept.
Remainers are wasting their time.
Remainers can force revocation. That would make the following General Election interesting. Which parties would promise to re-invoke it?
Brexit, UKIP and Bluekip.
Labour would instigate a democratic commission to decide whether to have a 2nd referendum on re-invoking, followed by a further negotiation with the EU leading to a 2nd democratic commission to decide whether to hold a 3rd referendum on implementing deal or remain. And say they have a clear policy.
1. Corbyn as their offering for PM 2. No credible Brexit policy 3. No credible action on anti-semitism
The timing is not exactly propitious. But the only thing that has kept them together has been the end point of a general election. They can hardly flinch from it now.
But the Conservatives are not in much of a better state. Boris et al threatening deselection for voting against the government after their repeated voting against the government on the same issue - sometimes for decades - is hilarious.
The Brexiteres are undemocratic scum. Shame on them, and shame on the once-great Conservative Party for putting such scum in power.
They won a contested referendum
They won a contested leadership election
They have clearly stated that the HoC has the right to no confidence them and put a new government in place
Which bit is “undemocratic ”?
And “scum” is not constructive. They are politicians that you disagree with. That doesn’t make them sub-human.
No. What 'leave' meant in the referendum was unclear, and May's deal satisfied it for many leavers, including many prominent ones on here. It was a typically British compromise. The 2017 Conservative manifesto was mainly about a deal. The Conservative leadership election was infiltrated by entryists, as we saw on here. And the polling is not exactly favourable for no-deal.
So given the potential consequences of a no-deal, I'd say going for one given the above is utterly undemocratic. But at least we know you'll be safe of the consequences, whatever happens.
'Scum' is very constructive when talking about people threatening others for actions they have just done themselves. And those who support them knowing this.
What “leave” meant was very very clear
It meant leave.
Under Article 50 the U.K. and the EU had 2 years to agree a new set of arrangements
They failed
So we leave without a new set of arrangements
(And please don’t attack me personally. Playing the man not the ball is never pleasant)
Is it not more logical to say that given no satisfactory means of leaving can be found that we should simply stay? Especially as it was divisions amongst the leave advocates that prevented a satisfactory arrangement being agreed.
Given that none of the reasons for leaving have changed and that our relationship with and opinion of the EU will be even worse than they were before, the answer to your question is a very clear no.
Pretty simple for the govt - ask for an unreasonable extension with unreasonable demands.
In the unlikely event the EU agrees then don’t accept.
Remainers are wasting their time.
I think they've probably thought of that difficulty. It will be interesting to see the form of words of the Brexit Asylum (Special Measures) Bill when it's published.
I always find it easy to identify a Leaver walking in the street: bold, confident steps, an erect spine, proud demeanour and a neatly clipped moustache.
By contrast the average Remainer is stooped and shuffles, frequently trips over their own feet and has unruly eyebrows that meet in the middle.
Basically you're describing the plot of "Underworld" at this point. Leavers are the vampires, Remainers are the Lycans.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
Honest technical question.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
Most remainers on here said they would be happy with that outcome EFTA/EEA as to it’s practicalities I don’t know but I think Johnson would be toast
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
Indeed. Remainers are good in bed, well-toned musculature, good teeth and have fine singing voices.
I shall ignore your tragic little episode of ad hominem, and address the main point.
Yes. I’ve read the Rogers piece. It’s good. He’s one of the cleverer Remainers. TMay was indeed an idiot for booting him.
I agree with a lot of what he says - economically. Clearly No Deal will be significantly nasty. As I’ve said before, my prediction is that No Deal would be less unpleasant than expected on day 1, but in the medium term it would do a lot of harm - the analogy of a slow puncture is apt. In the long term we’d be fine. But we’d have experienced a lot of avoidable grief.
What Rogers doesn’t get, I think - and he’s not alone - is how (as I said down thread) Brexit has morphed into a revolution. A cultural revolution. Britain is the first major country to try and reverse the ratchet of globalisation, to stop the relentless march to post-democratic elitocracy and depose the Dynasty of Davos.
It may be mad or misguided but it is important, and historically fascinating.
And now, the pool. Kalimera.
I think the mistake you make is in confusing the institutions (such as the EU, WTO, global standards bodies) set up to manage globalisation, ameliorate its impact and subject it to some democratic accountability, with globalisation itself. Brexit is part of a programme by extreme capitalists to unshackle themselves from any kind of global rules, and unleash a more pure form of globalisation on the rest of humanity. The fact that people may have voted for it believing they were better protecting themselves from globalisation is one of its many tragic facets. It is a revolution, but in the exact opposite direction to the one you suggest.
BTW I was aiming for a humourous put down of your verbose prose style rather than attacking you as a person, but if you took offence then I apologise unreservedly. At least you are still on holiday. Also, I have never accused you of being SeanT, so that should count in my favour.
Hah. Fair enough. We must agree to disagree on revolutions.
As for the SeanT thing, I’ve taken a lesson from the great man himself, in his absence. I shall exercise a very manly restraint, and shrug it all off.
They have to say that. Otherwise the Attorney-General, Solicitor-General and Justice Ministers would all have to resign. In good conscience.
I suspect we are going to have a fight over when a Bill gets presented for Royal Assent to become the law, however. I can imagine Dominic Cummins arguing that the Govt. has no obligation to immediately submit a Bill that isn't part of its legislative programme.....
A return to the constitutional practices of the Stuart dynasty?
I suppose no excess of Brexiteer craziness should surprise us any more.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
Indeed. Remainers are good in bed, well-toned musculature, good teeth and have fine singing voices.
I've said before that this is like the 17thC Civil War and, with the Executive trying to close down Parliament it seems ever more like that.
I wonder if, in the event of the Revolution succeeding, Boris J will be put on trial!
Although, to be fair, are the Leavers the Roundheads and so they'll succeed for a while and then there'll be a Restoration?
Yes but the restoration was really in name only. We have the outward theatre of monarchy but have really been a republic since 1689 ( actually probably since the end of Naseby in 1645). Bit like the Church of England is Protestant but kept bishops and enough theatre to make it look fairly like the old regime.
The trick here will eventually to resolve it so that one side gets face saving show. However that might be 25 years off (?)
There was a bit in R4 too yesterday equating Leavers with the Roundheads.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
Yep. Which is why No Deal needs to be avoided at all costs.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
Indeed. Remainers are good in bed, well-toned musculature, good teeth and have fine singing voices.
I've said before that this is like the 17thC Civil War and, with the Executive trying to close down Parliament it seems ever more like that.
I wonder if, in the event of the Revolution succeeding, Boris J will be put on trial!
Although, to be fair, are the Leavers the Roundheads and so they'll succeed for a while and then there'll be a Restoration?
Yes but the restoration was really in name only. We have the outward theatre of monarchy but have really been a republic since 1689 ( actually probably since the end of Naseby in 1645).
I'm sorry, can you remind me when the election was, that returned Queen Elizabeth II for the 12th time?
I wonder what Mr O'Hara would have written about Howe's 1981 budget? Surely there was a party throwing itself off the cliff in the mad pursuit of monetarism, against the advice of the famous 364 economists, with an MP crossing the floor and others walking out, dooming itself to never winning an election again or at best squeaking through one election on the back of divided opposition before its inevitable and final annihilation?
What happened instead was the underlying inflation that had so dogged our economic performance for more than a decade was finally brought under control and unemployment fell sharply rather than the increase forecast. The ground was set for strong future economic growth and a new consensus was created that remained in place until the latter days of Brown's hubris.
So let it be with Brexit. If we leave (and it is still not certain) there will be a new consensus and all to play for.
Thatcher made a massive u-turn over her original monetarist plan though. And I'm not sure where your idea of a sharp fall in employment comes from, it steadily rose until the mid 80s...
Unemployment fell sharply after the 1981 budget until a second recession in the late 80’s. I checked my memory of this this morning before posting but can’t access the table on my phone.
Unemployment did not peak until the mid-1980s - though the rate of increase slowed.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
Yep. Which is why No Deal needs to be avoided at all costs.
So you would rather revoke than leave with no deal?
I've said before that this is like the 17thC Civil War and, with the Executive trying to close down Parliament it seems ever more like that.
I wonder if, in the event of the Revolution succeeding, Boris J will be put on trial!
Although, to be fair, are the Leavers the Roundheads and so they'll succeed for a while and then there'll be a Restoration?
Yes but the restoration was really in name only. We have the outward theatre of monarchy but have really been a republic since 1689 ( actually probably since the end of Naseby in 1645).
I'm sorry, can you remind me when the election was, that returned Queen Elizabeth II for the 12th time?
I've said before that this is like the 17thC Civil War and, with the Executive trying to close down Parliament it seems ever more like that.
I wonder if, in the event of the Revolution succeeding, Boris J will be put on trial!
Although, to be fair, are the Leavers the Roundheads and so they'll succeed for a while and then there'll be a Restoration?
Yes but the restoration was really in name only. We have the outward theatre of monarchy but have really been a republic since 1689 ( actually probably since the end of Naseby in 1645).
I'm sorry, can you remind me when the election was, that returned Queen Elizabeth II for the 12th time?
The effect on business that tariffs will make is the 2019 version of the effect on low skilled workers that mass immigration from A8 countries will make (2004). Difference being the this one is backed by the poor not the wealthy, who didn't give the former a moments thought, and when the poor complained, they called them racist (while pocketing the profit)
This type or poll was usefull as toilet paper when newspapers were still being printed.
Kind of a stupid poll. My view of Boris has not changed since he became PM. I thought he wss was an arse before and I still think he is. Not sure how ' balanced' that is as a view though.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
Surely Johnson would have preferred to avoid the uncertainty of an election. If he wants an election, it must be an admission that he is not confident of forcing through No Deal with the present Commons. Or else that he understands the Tories stand no chance of winning an election after a No Deal Brexit.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
Indeed. Remainers are good in bed, well-toned musculature, good teeth and have fine singing voices.
Is one out of four acceptable?
Depends on the choir...
No, not that. My active gym membership results in w-tm. I think, anyway!
The effect on business that tariffs will make is the 2019 version of the effect on low skilled workers that mass immigration from A8 countries will make (2004). Difference being the this one is backed by the poor not the wealthy, who didn't give the former a moments thought, and when the poor complained, they called them racist (while pocketing the profit)
I’ve been talking to a very working class leave supporting friend who is a big fan of Boris.
This should worry some...
People like that should already be in the polling though, and if anything it's showing a potential upside to Con if somebody manages to explain it to them.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
Surely Johnson would have preferred to avoid the uncertainty of an election. If he wants an election, it must be an admission that he is not confident of forcing through No Deal with the present Commons. Or else that he understands the Tories stand no chance of winning an election after a No Deal Brexit.
Of course Boris wants an election. After watching the agony of May since 2017 how could he not? He just needs it to be forced upon him. Looking increasingly likely.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I think the two big unknowns are:
- what Nigel does (if we get an aggressive "Boris is a traitor" campaign and 650 candidates for BXP, all bets are off).
- whether there's a pro-Jeremy bounce like last time (probably linked to whether they come up with a credible Brexit policy by then).
The winner will probably be the one who manages to unify the right/leave or left/remain more effectively. Corbyn can respect the result all he likes, but if he's scrapping for leavy WWC votes with Johnson and Farage, he ain't getting a sufficient share to form a govt IMO.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Hmm. My wild guess is that BXP will be really squished and Boris will get a small but useful majority. 25-50?
That would mean (I hope):
some kind of Brexit deal, after an extension and a renegotiation an end to Corbyn (and Corbynism?) a quite radical deregulating Tory govt, for five years, trying to grow us out of the Brexit blues
I think the best correlation with Brexit is 'Wind in the Willows'. The wild wood creatures - the weasels, stoats and ferrets are the Leavers, wild and feral, While Rat, Mole and Toad are the status quo Remainers.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Hmm. My wild guess is that BXP will be really squished and Boris will get a small but useful majority. 25-50?
That would mean (I hope):
some kind of Brexit deal, after an extension and a renegotiation an end to Corbyn (and Corbynism?) a quite radical deregulating Tory govt, for five years, trying to grow us out of the Brexit blues
That’s a pretty good outcome. IF.
What regulations will the Tories propose to remove?
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Hmm. My wild guess is that BXP will be really squished and Boris will get a small but useful majority. 25-50?
That would mean (I hope):
some kind of Brexit deal, after an extension and a renegotiation an end to Corbyn (and Corbynism?) a quite radical deregulating Tory govt, for five years, trying to grow us out of the Brexit blues
That’s a pretty good outcome. IF.
What regulations will the Tories propose to remove?
ALL of them. And good thing too. Regulations are for pussies. I eat chlorinated chicken FOR BREAKFAST
I’ve been talking to a very working class leave supporting friend who is a big fan of Boris.
This should worry some...
People like that should already be in the polling though, and if anything it's showing a potential upside to Con if somebody manages to explain it to them.
It is perfectly rational for Brexiters to simply not believe Boris is going to deliver for them.
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a long way.
Honest technical question.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
If we take Boris's opportunism as a given, once No Deal becomes difficult, unpopular and of no further use to him, he pivots.
The legalism is indeed the thing and I think any WA reconstruction from No Deal, even if broadly successful, would end up incomplete. However, it could become apparent that the WA is as far from the EU as we were ever likely to successfully get, so incomplete might do the job.
EFTA is a second, more ready made, possibility, and would be my favoured option to rebuild from a bad No Deal, but it is a closer relationship than the WA, and ditches migration control, so I'd expect the tide to have to turn further against No Deal before any accession process went public.
A way out via EFTA might also require us to No Deal long enough to see what happens in Ireland. I'm convinced that the No Hard border line will hold fast (and ultimately be accepted as a WTO exemption under conflict border mechanisms), that the EU (and UK) will be forced to do something, and this will be as far from the border as they can. Everyone will state that Ireland remains in the CU/SM, but there will be some technical dilution of that status. For the UK, the equivalent will be a version of the backstop by stealth.
My gut feeling is that EFTA (SM not CU) then changes the conversation around Ireland in a beneficial way, where the eventual MaxFac solution required is a dull one of effective collection of tariffs within the island, as opposed to emotive "oh shit, the IRA are now in the chlorinated chicken smuggling business" (plus a million other unsung nasties for which your chicken can stand as convenient shorthand).
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Hmm. My wild guess is that BXP will be really squished and Boris will get a small but useful majority. 25-50?
That would mean (I hope):
some kind of Brexit deal, after an extension and a renegotiation an end to Corbyn (and Corbynism?) a quite radical deregulating Tory govt, for five years, trying to grow us out of the Brexit blues
That’s a pretty good outcome. IF.
What regulations will the Tories propose to remove?
ALL of them. And good thing too. Regulations are for pussies. I eat chlorinated chicken FOR BREAKFAST
Though Boris Johnson expelling Churchill's Grandson from the Tory party will be horrible optics.
I hate to be the one to point this out, but "horrible optics" is largely a thing of the past. We are in an attention-driven political system now. Attention is everything, and ideology and decency are a poor silver and bronze. Dead cats used to be a distraction against bad news cycles, but now they are the path to power.
The effect on business that tariffs will make is the 2019 version of the effect on low skilled workers that mass immigration from A8 countries will make (2004). Difference being the this one is backed by the poor not the wealthy, who didn't give the former a moments thought, and when the poor complained, they called them racist (while pocketing the profit)
Again in English?
The referendum was a vote on the UK's 21st Century mass immigration policy. Richer people saw it as a good thing as they benefited from a never ending supply of cheap labour, whilst their neighbourhood's remained the same. Poor people saw it as a bad thing as it meant increased competition for job, wages, and state services whilst their neighbourhood's changed completely.
Leave winning meant that richer people face the same pressure on their ability to earn a living as those at the lower end of the scale have been since 2004.
I wonder what Mr O'Hara would have written about Howe's 1981 budget? Surely there was a party throwing itself off the cliff in the mad pursuit of monetarism, against the advice of the famous 364 economists, with an MP crossing the floor and others walking out, dooming itself to never winning an election again or at best squeaking through one election on the back of divided opposition before its inevitable and final annihilation?
What happened instead was the underlying inflation that had so dogged our economic performance for more than a decade was finally brought under control and unemployment fell sharply rather than the increase forecast. The ground was set for strong future economic growth and a new consensus was created that remained in place until the latter days of Brown's hubris.
So let it be with Brexit. If we leave (and it is still not certain) there will be a new consensus and all to play for.
Thatcher made a massive u-turn over her original monetarist plan though. And I'm not sure where your idea of a sharp fall in employment comes from, it steadily rose until the mid 80s...
Unemployment fell sharply after the 1981 budget until a second recession in the late 80’s. I checked my memory of this this morning before posting but can’t access the table on my phone.
Unemployment did not peak until the mid-1980s - though the rate of increase slowed.
The big problem for many of us in the 80's and early 90's was the enormous level of lending rates, whether mortgage or business lending. Base rate at the end of 1979 was 17%, didn't get into single figures until 1983, went up again, and didn't consistently fall into single figures until after 1992.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Hmm. My wild guess is that BXP will be really squished and Boris will get a small but useful majority. 25-50?
That would mean (I hope):
some kind of Brexit deal, after an extension and a renegotiation an end to Corbyn (and Corbynism?) a quite radical deregulating Tory govt, for five years, trying to grow us out of the Brexit blues
That’s a pretty good outcome. IF.
What regulations will the Tories propose to remove?
ALL of them. And good thing too. Regulations are for pussies. I eat chlorinated chicken FOR BREAKFAST
1. Corbyn as their offering for PM 2. No credible Brexit policy 3. No credible action on anti-semitism
The timing is not exactly propitious. But the only thing that has kept them together has been the end point of a general election. They can hardly flinch from it now.
But the Conservatives are not in much of a better state. Boris et al threatening deselection for voting against the government after their repeated voting against the government on the same issue - sometimes for decades - is hilarious.
The Brexiteres are undemocratic scum. Shame on them, and shame on the once-great Conservative Party for putting such scum in power.
They won a contested referendum
They won a contested leadership election
They have clearly stated that the HoC has the right to no confidence them and put a new government in place
Which bit is “undemocratic ”?
And “scum” is not constructive. They are politicians that you disagree with. That doesn’t make them sub-human.
In a political sense they are scum. They have undermined everything that the Conservative Party used to stand for. They have put a wrecking ball through it, in the same way as Corbyn has put a wrecking ball through Labour. I very much hope that both pay the price of humiliation at some time or other.
What concerns me is if they do de-select the moderates and HYUFD is right. We'd have a party running the country filled to the brim with one-issue yes-men (because they know that arguing with the party means they'll lose their job) and with no moderating influences. Worse, many MPs will be utterly new to politics ad have little standing in the party.
That's almost as bad as a large Corbynite majority, or a Brexit Party one.
In what sense are those threatened with deselection "moderates"? Grieve a moderate? He is the most extreme of Europhiles. Ditto Clarke. They snobbishly believe their views top trump those of their voters. They are wrong.
Clarke voted for TM's deal repeatedly. How is he more extreme than the ERG here?
Exactly. That is a great big lie. Grieve, fair enough. But Clarke has proven that while he would like to he more extreme he compromised on what he wanted.
It has to come one way or another but I do not expect a Boris majority government. Indeed possibly just as deadlocked
The polls point to a good Tory majority. BUT this is a wholly unprecedented and unpredictable election IF IT HAPPENS ( I’m not convinced)
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
I expect a SNP whitewash, strong lib dem gains in London and the South, big conservatives gains in leave areas with labour caught in a pincer movement that sees them losing seats to the SNP, conservatives and lib dems but at the same time many conservative loses.
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
Hmm. My wild guess is that BXP will be really squished and Boris will get a small but useful majority. 25-50?
A GE will see more airtime for both Farage and Swinson. Assuming none of them self-immolate on the altar of bum sex then I expect their parties to benefit accordingly.
The effect on business that tariffs will make is the 2019 version of the effect on low skilled workers that mass immigration from A8 countries will make (2004). Difference being the this one is backed by the poor not the wealthy, who didn't give the former a moments thought, and when the poor complained, they called them racist (while pocketing the profit)
Again in English?
The referendum was a vote on the UK's 21st Century mass immigration policy. Richer people saw it as a good thing as they benefited from a never ending supply of cheap labour, whilst their neighbourhood's remained the same. Poor people saw it as a bad thing as it meant increased competition for job, wages, and state services whilst their neighbourhood's changed completely.
Leave winning meant that richer people face the same pressure on their ability to earn a living as those at the lower end of the scale have been since 2004.
This is just nonsense. All the architects of Brexit are very rich and our Pensioners are on the whole, as a generation, wealthy.
I’ve been talking to a very working class leave supporting friend who is a big fan of Boris.
This should worry some...
People like that should already be in the polling though, and if anything it's showing a potential upside to Con if somebody manages to explain it to them.
It is perfectly rational for Brexiters to simply not believe Boris is going to deliver for them.
Yes. One thing supporters and opponents can agree on. The PM is untrustworthy. Indeed, he has been keen to emphasise it as a virtue.
I'd always wished TMay had the strength to take the whip away from the worst of the extreme headbangers, now they are in charge... the moderates are being driven out.
If only there had been any such precedent with Labour to warn of such events...
Another whinge about how we are perceived as if that alone is Important. We can worry about perceptions once get our shit together, and other nations which have ever had their own crises are in no position to get judgy.
Leave winning meant that richer people face the same pressure on their ability to earn a living as those at the lower end of the scale have been since 2004.
As Remainers all have an 'ology' in 'Expressive Dance', they'll know everything about science. Chlorine is a nasty chemical and sodium is a nasty metal, That's why salt is so dangerous.
Leave winning meant that richer people face the same pressure on their ability to earn a living as those at the lower end of the scale have been since 2004.
Leave winning meant that richer people face the same pressure on their ability to earn a living as those at the lower end of the scale have been since 2004.
You sound like a communist
Is that supposed to be pejorative or congratulatory.
I'd always wished TMay had the strength to take the whip away from the worst of the extreme headbangers, now they are in charge... the moderates are being driven out.
If only there had been any such precedent with Labour to warn of such events...
Oh.
Indeed, looks like our New Socially Liberal, Fiscally Dry Tory not obsessed with the gays, immigration, and Europe party is about to get an influx of members.
PS - Disappointed with the result against The Woolwich or are you happy?
Comments
I wonder if, in the event of the Revolution succeeding, Boris J will be put on trial!
Although, to be fair, are the Leavers the Roundheads and so they'll succeed for a while and then there'll be a Restoration?
Wait - what ?
No end of days?
Shocked I tell you
The only way the EU would accept us back is if they could be sure we wouldn’t try to leave again; they’d want us locked in. Like Greece. They’d want us in the Euro.
We’ll never accept that. So, yes, when the door slams it won’t open again for a very l9ng time, if ever.
EEA, however? Quite possible.
If Johnson signs the WA he will be doing what the EU wants, so maybe they will find a a way to sort out the legality of the Transition Period. But I think it could be a problem.
BTW I was aiming for a humourous put down of your verbose prose style rather than attacking you as a person, but if you took offence then I apologise unreservedly. At least you are still on holiday. Also, I have never accused you of being SeanT, so that should count in my favour.
The importance of this is that the EU have to agree but I cannot see it agreeing to can kicking
Maybe. But I see, to my surprise, that Tony Blair has reached the same conclusion as me, this morning. He’s called Brexit a ‘moment of revolution’ in a speech.
Odd to share an analysis with Mr Iraq.
Labour would instigate a democratic commission to decide whether to have a 2nd referendum on re-invoking, followed by a further negotiation with the EU leading to a 2nd democratic commission to decide whether to hold a 3rd referendum on implementing deal or remain. And say they have a clear policy.
Leavers more likely to be elderly, jobless, etc.
As for the SeanT thing, I’ve taken a lesson from the great man himself, in his absence. I shall exercise a very manly restraint, and shrug it all off.
I suppose no excess of Brexiteer craziness should surprise us any more.
The trick here will eventually to resolve it so that one side gets face saving show. However that might be 25 years off (?)
There was a bit in R4 too yesterday equating Leavers with the Roundheads.
But let’s say Boris wins his maj. Before Brexit. What then? He will presumably push through a deal of some kind. With a small extension.
This should worry some...
Result a conservative minority government and more deadlock
- what Nigel does (if we get an aggressive "Boris is a traitor" campaign and 650 candidates for BXP, all bets are off).
- whether there's a pro-Jeremy bounce like last time (probably linked to whether they come up with a credible Brexit policy by then).
The winner will probably be the one who manages to unify the right/leave or left/remain more effectively. Corbyn can respect the result all he likes, but if he's scrapping for leavy WWC votes with Johnson and Farage, he ain't getting a sufficient share to form a govt IMO.
That would mean (I hope):
some kind of Brexit deal, after an extension and a renegotiation
an end to Corbyn (and Corbynism?)
a quite radical deregulating Tory govt, for five years, trying to grow us out of the Brexit blues
That’s a pretty good outcome. IF.
Their spokesman being Mr Toad, of course.
Though Boris Johnson expelling Churchill's Grandson from the Tory party will be horrible optics.
EU commission has just said it would be entirely unreasonable for mps to try to bind the hands of the Prime Minister
Now that is surprising
The legalism is indeed the thing and I think any WA reconstruction from No Deal, even if broadly successful, would end up incomplete. However, it could become apparent that the WA is as far from the EU as we were ever likely to successfully get, so incomplete might do the job.
EFTA is a second, more ready made, possibility, and would be my favoured option to rebuild from a bad No Deal, but it is a closer relationship than the WA, and ditches migration control, so I'd expect the tide to have to turn further against No Deal before any accession process went public.
A way out via EFTA might also require us to No Deal long enough to see what happens in Ireland. I'm convinced that the No Hard border line will hold fast (and ultimately be accepted as a WTO exemption under conflict border mechanisms), that the EU (and UK) will be forced to do something, and this will be as far from the border as they can. Everyone will state that Ireland remains in the CU/SM, but there will be some technical dilution of that status. For the UK, the equivalent will be a version of the backstop by stealth.
My gut feeling is that EFTA (SM not CU) then changes the conversation around Ireland in a beneficial way, where the eventual MaxFac solution required is a dull one of effective collection of tariffs within the island, as opposed to emotive "oh shit, the IRA are now in the chlorinated chicken smuggling business" (plus a million other unsung nasties for which your chicken can stand as convenient shorthand).
Dead cats used to be a distraction against bad news cycles, but now they are the path to power.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/island-school-promises-amazing-perks-19098311
Leave winning meant that richer people face the same pressure on their ability to earn a living as those at the lower end of the scale have been since 2004.
Boris Johnson should be removed from office. The only option MPs can stop No Deal with and ensure A50 extension.
Anyway, I must be off.
This was racism and xenophobia. Nothing else.
If only there had been any such precedent with Labour to warn of such events...
Oh.
As Remainers all have an 'ology' in 'Expressive Dance', they'll know everything about science. Chlorine is a nasty chemical and sodium is a nasty metal, That's why salt is so dangerous.
PS - Disappointed with the result against The Woolwich or are you happy?