Have they bothered to explain how the intend to prevent No Deal by legislation? What will happen if they legislate to order the Government to seek an A50 extension, but Boris Johnson refuses?
He probably doesn't even need to - just needs to make a halfarsed request at the extension. Or request an extension for 10 minutes.
The rebel alliance will of course suspect him of that …. will they dare legislate to require revoke if the extension is refused?
Do they try their hardest to ensure the most fervent Brexiteers and the most fervent remainers review the papers at the same time because it's "balanced", because it's "good TV", is it just that Brexit is so polarising it's the inevitable outcome, or is it all 3?
To everyone complaining. Parliament has had three years to say what it wants and multiple attempts, including that farcical Letwin process. It has had three chances to avoid no deal.
Precisely what have MPs achieved during that time?
1. Because while a Deal vs No Deal referendum would be legitimate, Parliament would amend it to be Deal vs Remain. In so doing they would set aside the votes of 17.4 million people and teach them all that voting has no purpose if they disagree with their “betters”
2. Inertia is the most powerful force in politics. Once it is done it is done and it will go back to being a minority interest
3. Get a grip. It’s 4 f*****g days. After Bercow and others have abused parliamentary procedure
This four days rubbish has to stop. It's simply untrue.
You’re right. Radio 4 just said it is 3 days. I apologise.
Which is also untrue. Prorogation removes weeks from the disposal of Parliament, weeks that it looked set to use.
Like it made such effective use of the past three-and-a-bit years?
The means to resolve the situation still exists and is available to MPs should they wish to avail themselves of it: replace the Government.
Boris Johnson can afford to upset MPs because they won't get rid of him. Their choice.
Hang on, let's focus on the government seeking to take time away from Parliament at a critical period in order to push through a policy that was not campaigned for under a Prime Minister who was not voted for with a government with no majority.
We can move onto other weaknesses in Britain's democracy once we've addressed those rather major problems.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
As an anti-Tory of long standing, I am nonetheless heartened by the number of Tories, both on here, and in the Parliamentary Party and beyond, who are having none of this.
Forget uniting the Tory and Brexit vote, the PM is going to have a job holding on to the Tory vote at this rate.
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
To everyone complaining. Parliament has had three years to say what it wants and multiple attempts, including that farcical Letwin process. It has had three chances to avoid no deal.
Precisely what have MPs achieved during that time?
Boris achieved power by voting against Brexit.
He voted for the deal the final time. One more than all of those MPs trying so very hard to stop no deal.
Do they try their hardest to ensure the most fervent Brexiteers and the most fervent remainers review the papers at the same time because it's "balanced", because it's "good TV", is it just that Brexit is so polarising it's the inevitable outcome, or is it all 3?
It has become unwatchable, indeed the media do this continually rather than getting two moderates to discuss the papers and other topics
I cannot recall the 'mute' button being used so often
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
It’s amazing that there now seems something of the jackboot about Boris - sweeping away ancient constitutional safeguards with a snigger and a sneer. That carefully crafted jovial-chap-of-the-people persona is in tatters. Cummings couldn’t have thought this through.
Did you say the same sbout Major in 1997? Do you thijk the same sbout Atlee in 1948? Both did the same thing for similarly self serving reasons. Not sure anyone said there was something of the jackboot about them
Boris is stupid and wrong on this but the hyperbole coming from his opponents is farcical.
Yup, diehard Remainers wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal and ignoring the Leave vote in the EU referendum, Boris and Cummings are now prepared to fight it to deliver Brexit come hell or high water on 31st October
Yes, against the will of the people.
The public do not want no deal and they want Parliament sitting. The polls are clear.
Just because some angry racist Essex people shouted at you doesn’t change that.
The people want Brexit, they voted for it, you wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement, a war you have now got.
As you are incapable of independent thought, let me spell it out for you again.
There is no majority for no deal. There is no majority for suspending parliament. The polls are clear.
This move is against the people, not for them.
No, we are now at war wuntil a Deal can pass the Commons
Well then let's have a referendum with No Deal on the ballot paper if you're so confident.
We had a referendum, it resulted in a vote to Leave the EU, Boris will now deliver it.
Once we have left if another party wins on a referendum commitment to rejoin the EU or the EEA that is another matter but the first vote result must be delivered first
Having trashed the union, our international reputation and any chance of national unity in the process.
Nice one. Really f*cking well done.
Trump and Bolsanoro and Morrison in the US, Brazil and Australia are fully behind Boris and post Brexit UK, as is Salvini who leads polls in Italy, as is Netanyahu in Israel and Modi in India. It is a myth to say the international community is united against Boris and Brexit and even now neither the SNP or Sinn Fein can reach even 50% in Scottish or Northern Irish polls
To everyone complaining. Parliament has had three years to say what it wants and multiple attempts, including that farcical Letwin process. It has had three chances to avoid no deal.
Precisely what have MPs achieved during that time?
It has demonstrated there is no majority in the country or in the House for a No Deal.
Taken to absurdity, your argument is that we might dispense of Parliament altogether.
Just as a note, I'm not convinced this is the best idea. I think there are better ways of goading the opposition into calling a VoNC, which is surely the ultimate aim here.
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
You need a dram after that.
Let us never speak of this again.
At this rate you'll be voting No in the next Indyref.
Today confirms to anti no dealers, if we didn't know already, that this is full on war, every rule to be abused, every tactic fair game, every advantage to be taken. Fine, every parliamentary, legal, popular and other avenue should be fair game for us too, we need to, to use war metaphor, take the medieval ball flail and aim it at Boris's bollock height.
Let us hope those who state that No Deal can be avoided as the end game for this battle, our leaders, are right.
1. Because while a Deal vs No Deal referendum would be legitimate, Parliament would amend it to be Deal vs Remain. In so doing they would set aside the votes of 17.4 million people and teach them all that voting has no purpose if they disagree with their “betters”
2. Inertia is the most powerful force in politics. Once it is done it is done and it will go back to being a minority interest
3. Get a grip. It’s 4 f*****g days. After Bercow and others have abused parliamentary procedure
This four days rubbish has to stop. It's simply untrue.
You’re right. Radio 4 just said it is 3 days. I apologise.
Which is also untrue. Prorogation removes weeks from the disposal of Parliament, weeks that it looked set to use.
Like it made such effective use of the past three-and-a-bit years?
The means to resolve the situation still exists and is available to MPs should they wish to avail themselves of it: replace the Government.
Boris Johnson can afford to upset MPs because they won't get rid of him. Their choice.
Hang on, let's focus on the government seeking to take time away from Parliament at a critical period in order to push through a policy that was not campaigned for under a Prime Minister who was not voted for with a government with no majority.
We can move onto other weaknesses in Britain's democracy once we've addressed those rather major problems.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
1. Because while a Deal vs No Deal referendum would be legitimate, Parliament would amend it to be Deal vs Remain. In so doing they would set aside the votes of 17.4 million people and teach them all that voting has no purpose if they disagree with their “betters”
2. Inertia is the most powerful force in politics. Once it is done it is done and it will go back to being a minority interest
3. Get a grip. It’s 4 f*****g days. After Bercow and others have abused parliamentary procedure
3 - It's not 4 days. It's 4 days + 4 days for the Queen's Speech which cannot be overridden.
At a minimum it's 8 days and that depends on when the proroguing begins. It's possible that it begins on September 9th which removes another 3 days of debates.
Between those items it reduces Parliament from 25 days of sitting where things were editable down to 14.
It’s reasonable that a new PM gets to submit a new Queen’s Speech
FWIW I don’t think this a sensible thing for Boris to do. It is constitutional and it is legitimate, but it’s a red rag to a bull. That being said the squeals of outrage are confected
Last night you were proclaiming that prorougation would never happen
Evening all. I've been away for a few days in Greece, the cradle of democracy. Looks like I've missed an eventful couple of days.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
To everyone complaining. Parliament has had three years to say what it wants and multiple attempts, including that farcical Letwin process. It has had three chances to avoid no deal.
Precisely what have MPs achieved during that time?
Boris achieved power by voting against Brexit.
He voted for the deal the final time. One more than all of those MPs trying so very hard to stop no deal.
Boris is trying to stop MPs doing to him what he did to May.
To everyone complaining. Parliament has had three years to say what it wants and multiple attempts, including that farcical Letwin process. It has had three chances to avoid no deal.
Precisely what have MPs achieved during that time?
It has demonstrated there is no majority in the country or in the House for a No Deal.
Taken to absurdity, your argument is that we might dispense of Parliament altogether.
Get a grip.
Yes, there's no majority in favour of no deal, I fully accept that, at the same time there is no majority for a deal and there is no majority for revoke.
So what were MPs going to achieve that they couldn't already have done in the last three years?
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
The monarchy is just as split as the country, I would guess the Queen and Prince Philip are Leavers (as was the Queen Mother) and maybe Princess Anne and Camilla, Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge are likely Remainers, as most certainly is Meghan and probably the Prince of Wales too.
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
It’s amazing that there now seems something of the jackboot about Boris - sweeping away ancient constitutional safeguards with a snigger and a sneer. That carefully crafted jovial-chap-of-the-people persona is in tatters. Cummings couldn’t have thought this through.
Did you say the same sbout Major in 1997? Do you thijk the same sbout Atlee in 1948? Both did the same thing for similarly self serving reasons. Not sure anyone said there was something of the jackboot about them
Boris is stupid and wrong on this but the hyperbole coming from his opponents is farcical.
Yup, diehard Remainers wanted a war by voting down the
Yes, against the will of the people.
The public do not want no deal and they want Parliament sitting. The polls are clear.
Just because some angry racist Essex people shouted at you doesn’t change that.
The people want Brexit, they voted for it, you wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement, a war you have now got.
As you are incapable of independent thought, let me spell it out for you again.
There is no majority for no deal. There is no majority for suspending parliament. The polls are clear.
This move is against the people, not for them.
No, we are now at war wuntil a Deal can pass the Commons
Well then let's have a referendum with No Deal on the ballot paper if you're so confident.
We had a referendum, it resulted in a vote to Leave the EU, Boris will now deliver it.
Once we have left if another party wins on a referendum commitment to rejoin the EU or the EEA that is another matter but the first vote result must be delivered first
Having trashed the union, our international reputation and any chance of national unity in the process.
Nice one. Really f*cking well done.
Trump and Bolsanoro and Morrison in the US, Brazil and Australia are fully behind Boris and post Brexit UK, as is Salvini who leads polls in Italy, as is Netanyahu in Israel and Modi in India. It is a myth to say the international community is united against Boris and Brexit and even now neither the SNP or Sinn Fein can reach even 50% in Scottish or Northern Irish polls
Evening all. I've been away for a few days in Greece, the cradle of democracy. Looks like I've missed an eventful couple of days.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
Absolutely.
PS - Was it a Minotaur of Greece you went on or a full long holiday?
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
The monarchy is just as split as the country, I would guess the Queen and Prince Philip are Leavers (as was the Queen Mother) and maybe Princess Anne and Camilla, Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge are likely Remainers, as most certainly is Meghan and probably the Prince of Wales too.
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
As an anti-Tory of long standing, I am nonetheless heartened by the number of Tories, both on here, and in the Parliamentary Party and beyond, who are having none of this.
Forget uniting the Tory and Brexit vote, the PM is going to have a job holding on to the Tory vote at this rate.
52% of Tory voters back proroguing Parliament today, only 27% opposed.
It was May who was losing Tory voters to the Brexit Party, Corbyn is still losing Remainers to the LDs
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
The monarchy is just as split as the country, I would guess the Queen and Prince Philip are Leavers (as was the Queen Mother) and maybe Princess Anne and Camilla, Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge are likely Remainers, as most certainly is Meghan and probably the Prince of Wales too.
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
He’s a bit odd, but we’ve had worse monarchs. I’m fairly ambivalent on the monarchy, largely since I can’t see us coming up with a constitutional change which would be an improvement any time soon...
Just as a note, I'm not convinced this is the best idea. I think there are better ways of goading the opposition into calling a VoNC, which is surely the ultimate aim here.
You are right. However, that clearly signalled goal appears to have been spotted pretty sharpish. The best tactic would be let the PM dangle and repeatedly ask him how his re-negotiation is proceeding.
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
But festival-goers often find themselves too tired and emotional after a weekend partying to take the time and effort to pack up their belongings - and their tent.
Trump and Bolsanoro and Morrison in the US, Brazil and Australia are fully behind Boris and post Brexit UK, as is Salvini who leads polls in Italy, as is Netanyahu in Israel and Modi in India. It is a myth to say the international community is united against Boris and Brexit and even now neither the SNP or Sinn Fein can reach even 50% in Scottish or Northern Irish polls
It’s amazing that there now seems something of the jackboot about Boris - sweeping away ancient constitutional safeguards with a snigger and a sneer. That carefully crafted jovial-chap-of-the-people persona is in tatters. Cummings couldn’t have thought this through.
Did you say the same sbout Major in 1997? Boris is stupid and wrong on this but the hyperbole coming from his opponents is farcical.
Yup, diehard Remainers wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal and ignoring the Leave vote in the EU referendum, Boris and Cummings are now prepared to fight it to deliver Brexit come hell or high water on 31st October
Yes, against the will of the people.
The public do not want no deal and they want Parliament sitting. The polls are clear.
Just because some angry racist Essex people shouted at you doesn’t change that.
The people want Brexit, they voted for it, you wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement, a war you have now got.
As you are incapable of independent thought, let me spell it out for you again.
There is no majority for no deal. There is no majority for suspending parliament. The polls are clear.
This move is against the people, not for them.
No, we are now at war wuntil a Deal can pass the Commons
Well then let's have a referendum with No Deal on the ballot paper if you're so confident.
We had a referendum, it resulted in a vote to Leave the EU, Boris will now deliver it.
Once we have left if another party wins on a referendum commitment to rejoin the EU or the EEA that is another matter but the first vote result must be delivered first
Having trashed the union, our international reputation and any chance of national unity in the process.
Nice one. Really f*cking well done.
Trump and Bolsanoro and Morrison in the US, Brazil and Australia are fully behind Boris and post Brexit UK, as is Salvini who leads polls in Italy, as is Netanyahu in Israel and Modi in India. It is a myth to say the international community is united against Boris and Brexit and even now neither the SNP or Sinn Fein can reach even 50% in Scottish or Northern Irish polls
1. Because while a Deal vs No Deal referendum would be legitimate, Parliament would amend it to be Deal vs Remain. In so doing they would set aside the votes of 17.4 million people and teach them all that voting has no purpose if they disagree with their “betters”
2. Inertia is the most powerful force in politics. Once it is done it is done and it will go back to being a minority interest
3. Get a grip. It’s 4 f*****g days. After Bercow and others have abused parliamentary procedure
3 - It's not 4 days. It's 4 days + 4 days for the Queen's Speech which cannot be overridden.
At a minimum it's 8 days and that depends on when the proroguing begins. It's possible that it begins on September 9th which removes another 3 days of debates.
Between those items it reduces Parliament from 25 days of sitting where things were editable down to 14.
It’s reasonable that a new PM gets to submit a new Queen’s Speech
FWIW I don’t think this a sensible thing for Boris to do. It is constitutional and it is legitimate, but it’s a red rag to a bull. That being said the squeals of outrage are confected
Yes but that can be done with a proroguing of 2 days. It doesn't need 35 days or 5 weeks.
Parliament has the absolute right to pass a VONC. That’s all they need to do.
But they won’t.
Boris wants a VONC followed by an election where he can have a People v Parliament election.
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
The monarchy is just as split as the country, I would guess the Queen and Prince Philip are Leavers (as was the Queen Mother) and maybe Princess Anne and Camilla, Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge are likely Remainers, as most certainly is Meghan and probably the Prince of Wales too.
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
I suspect that is all bollocks.
The point is that the heir is not selected on merit, but rather a generic lottery. That is the monarchies principle.
Claiming the Queen for No Deal is exactly what you’d expect the swivel-eyed loons to do. They are going to end up destroying all they claim to hold dear.
Evening all. I've been away for a few days in Greece, the cradle of democracy. Looks like I've missed an eventful couple of days.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
Absolutely.
PS - Was it a Minotaur of Greece you went on or a full long holiday?
There’s no way Richard would opt for the Spartan alternative, surely ?
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
The monarchy is just as split as the country, I would guess the Queen and Prince Philip are Leavers (as was the Queen Mother) and maybe Princess Anne and Camilla, Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge are likely Remainers, as most certainly is Meghan and probably the Prince of Wales too.
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
And your evidence for this totally fictional conjecture?
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
An hour ago you told me that it was untrue that the front pages in Scotland a dream for the SNP. I await your apology expectantly. Or have you now given up on any kind of pretence that the truth matters?
Trump and Bolsanoro and Morrison in the US, Brazil and Australia are fully behind Boris and post Brexit UK, as is Salvini who leads polls in Italy, as is Netanyahu in Israel and Modi in India. It is a myth to say the international community is united against Boris and Brexit and even now neither the SNP or Sinn Fein can reach even 50% in Scottish or Northern Irish polls
Evening all. I've been away for a few days in Greece, the cradle of democracy. Looks like I've missed an eventful couple of days.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
I spoke to someone earlier who thought this was still about making the EU think we were serious about No Deal and thus strengthen our negotiating hand. I think that's now wearing rather thin. Boris seems to have genuinely fallen under Cummings's spell and is relishing the chaos, disaster and division that No Deal will wreak - but to what ends I cannot yet fathom.
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
The monarchy is just as split as the country, I would guess the Queen and Prince Philip are Leavers (as was the Queen Mother) and maybe Princess Anne and Camilla, Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge are likely Remainers, as most certainly is Meghan and probably the Prince of Wales too.
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
Just as a note, I'm not convinced this is the best idea. I think there are better ways of goading the opposition into calling a VoNC, which is surely the ultimate aim here.
You are right. However, that clearly signalled goal appears to have been spotted pretty sharpish. The best tactic would be let the PM dangle and repeatedly ask him how his re-negotiation is proceeding.
It just makes the party look shifty. I'm firmly of the belief that MPs are guilty of a serious dereliction of duty for the past couple of years. Too busy navel gazing not wanting to take the blame for voting through the deal hoping that A. N. Other MP will. However, this kind of manoeuvring is wrong and wil be seen as scheming by the voters.
As an anti-Tory of long standing, I am nonetheless heartened by the number of Tories, both on here, and in the Parliamentary Party and beyond, who are having none of this.
Forget uniting the Tory and Brexit vote, the PM is going to have a job holding on to the Tory vote at this rate.
52% of Tory voters back proroguing Parliament today, only 27% opposed.
It was May who was losing Tory voters to the Brexit Party, Corbyn is still losing Remainers to the LDs
@HYUFD you’ve named the most detestable and hated world leaders as some sort or badge of honour.
Give your head a shake.
The British people voted to Leave the EU and they are only detested amongst the Remain voting metropolitan liberal elite, after all the latest British polls have Boris as preferred PM and the Tories ahead despite diehard Remainers detesting him
It’s amazing that there now seems something of the jackboot about Boris - sweeping away ancient constitutional safeguards with a snigger and a sneer. That carefully crafted jovial-chap-of-the-people persona is in tatters. Cummings couldn’t have thought this through.
Did you say the same sbout Major in 1997? Do you thijk the same sbout Atlee in 1948? Both did the same thing for similarly self serving reasons. Not sure anyone said there was something of the jackboot about them
Boris is stupid and wrong on this but the hyperbole coming from his opponents is farcical.
come hell or high water on 31st October
Yes, against the will of the people.
The public do not want no deal and they want Parliament sitting. The polls are clear.
Just because some angry racist Essex people shouted at you doesn’t change that.
The people want Brexit, they voted for it, you wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement, a war you have now got.
As you are incapable of independent thought, let me spell it out for you again.
There is no majorityt. The polls are clear.
This move is against the people, not for them.
No, we are now at war wuntil a Deal can pass the Commons
Well then let's have a referendum with No Deal on the ballot paper if you're so confident.
We had a referendum, it resulted in a vote to Leave the EU, Boris will now deliver it.
Once we have left if another party wins on a referendum commitment to rejoin the EU or the EEA that is another matter but the first vote result must be delivered first
Having trashed the union, our international reputation and any chance of national unity in the process.
Nice one. Really f*cking well done.
Trump and Bolsanoro and Morrison in the US, Brazil and Australia are fully behind Boris and post Brexit UK, as is Salvini who leads polls in Italy, as is Netanyahu in Israel and Modi in India. It is a myth to say the international community is united against Boris and Brexit and even now neither the SNP or Sinn Fein can reach even 50% in Scottish or Northern Irish polls
Yep, the English nationalists that now control the Tory party are throwing the UK into an alliance with populist reactionaries. That is the country they are asking voters to agree we become.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
So you think it's acceptable that an unelected Prime Minister who has yet to face a vote leading a government with no majority pursuing a policy that has never been put to the electorate should seek to impose that policy by suspending Parliament?
Honestly I think the best thing Boris can do is remake the deal and then come up with some arcane way of allowing MPs to vote in a secret ballot so that no one takes the blame for voting it through.
@HYUFD you’ve named the most detestable and hated world leaders as some sort or badge of honour.
Give your head a shake.
The British people voted to Leave the EU and they are only detested amongst the Remain voting metropolitan liberal elite, after all the latest British polls have Boris as preferred PM and the Tories ahead despite diehard Remainers detesting him
@HYUFD you’ve named the most detestable and hated world leaders as some sort or badge of honour.
Give your head a shake.
The British people voted to Leave the EU and they are only detested amongst the Remain voting metropolitan liberal elite, after all the latest British polls have Boris as preferred PM and the Tories ahead despite diehard Remainers detesting him
Lets see the weekends polls before crowing about Boris
Honestly I think the best thing Boris can do is remake the deal and then come up with some arcane way of allowing MPs to vote in a secret ballot so that no one takes the blame for voting it through.
I'm fairly sure that he's painted himself into a corner making that approach all but impossible now. We've already heard some ERG headbangers saying that the whole WA, not just the backstop, is unacceptable now.
Claiming the Queen for No Deal is exactly what you’d expect the swivel-eyed loons to do. They are going to end up destroying all they claim to hold dear.
@HYUFD you’ve named the most detestable and hated world leaders as some sort or badge of honour.
Give your head a shake.
The British people voted to Leave the EU and they are only detested amongst the Remain voting metropolitan liberal elite, after all the latest British polls have Boris as preferred PM and the Tories ahead despite diehard Remainers detesting him
Lets see the weekends polls before crowing about Boris
Anything could happen to them
I would expect the Tory vote to be up and the LD vote to be up, with the Brexit vote falling back in the Tories and Boris' favour and Labour maybe even falling to third as Remainers go LD and we polarise on Brexit lines.
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
You need a dram after that.
Let us never speak of this again.
At this rate you'll be voting No in the next Indyref.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
This is class 1 cobblers.
For most of the period since the referendum Parliament has been locked out of the Brexit process by Theresa May who refused to debate her negotiating strategy in Parliament (which would have given away our special negotiating tricks, apparently) and even delayed the meaningful vote that the Commons forced her to grant on the Brexit deal that she negotiated without involving Parliament at all.
Even after the Commons had voted down her deal earlier this year, May resisted the suggestion to hold indicative votes - or any other method - that might have helped the Commons to come to a compromise that would have majority support.
When May did, finally, move towards a position that had a chance of commanding majority support in the House - to allow a vote on holding a referendum on her deal - she was prevented from putting this to a vote in the Commons by her party moving against her.
The idea that Parliament has had more than three years to address this issue is revisionism of the first order. They have been blocked from doing so at every turn.
@HYUFD you’ve named the most detestable and hated world leaders as some sort or badge of honour.
Give your head a shake.
The British people voted to Leave the EU and they are only detested amongst the Remain voting metropolitan liberal elite, after all the latest British polls have Boris as preferred PM and the Tories ahead despite diehard Remainers detesting him
Lets see the weekends polls before crowing about Boris
Anything could happen to them
Please no. Polls have now become politicised. They are a demagogue’s charter.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
So you think it's acceptable that an unelected Prime Minister who has yet to face a vote leading a government with no majority pursuing a policy that has never been put to the electorate should seek to impose that policy by suspending Parliament?
Surely the aim is to get Labour to table a VoNC before the prorogue begins and for the government to lose and have an election forced upon them?
Personally I think people won't forget this and while Boris will win a majority, it will be wafer thin, little better than today.
@HYUFD you’ve named the most detestable and hated world leaders as some sort or badge of honour.
Give your head a shake.
The British people voted to Leave the EU and they are only detested amongst the Remain voting metropolitan liberal elite, after all the latest British polls have Boris as preferred PM and the Tories ahead despite diehard Remainers detesting him
Boring.
Sometimes for your peace of mind it is maybe best to ignore HYUFD posts for a while
Mind you I did apologise to him for forecasting Boris would do this today, I really did not think he would
I would expect the Tory vote to be up and the LD vote to be up, with the Brexit vote falling back in the Tories and Boris' favour and Labour maybe even falling to third as Remainers go LD and we polarise on Brexit lines.
Ah ha that'll be Boris "bringing the country together".
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
An hour ago you told me that it was untrue that the front pages in Scotland a dream for the SNP. I await your apology expectantly. Or have you now given up on any kind of pretence that the truth matters?
This is a terrible day for the Scottish tories. I can see no upside anywhere. Will Ruth leave the Tory party altogether? If so then others may follow and Boris may lose his majority. If the result is the Tory party break away in Scotland then I would support this move.
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
An hour ago you told me that it was untrue that the front pages in Scotland a dream for the SNP. I await your apology expectantly. Or have you now given up on any kind of pretence that the truth matters?
They aren't, as I said the Daily Record is a pro Labour, anti Tory paper and prefers the SNP to the Tories and all the Scottish only papers are pro Remain despite 38% of Scots voting Leave
It’s amazing that there now seems something of the jackboot about Boris - sweeping away ancient constitutional safeguards with a snigger and a sneer. That carefully crafted jovial-chap-of-the-people persona is in tatters. Cummings couldn’t have thought this through.
Did you say the same sbout Major in 1997? Do you thijk the same sbout Atlee in 1948? Both did the same thing for similarly self serving reasons. Not sure anyone said there was something of the jackboot about them
Boris is stupid and wrong on this but the hyperbole coming from his opponents is farcical.
Yup, diehard Remainers wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal and ignoring the Leave vote in the EU referendum, Boris and Cummings are now prepared to fight it to deliver Brexit come hell or high water on 31st October
Yes, against the will of the people.
The public do not want no deal and they want Parliament sitting. The polls are clear.
Just because some angry racist Essex people shouted at you doesn’t change that.
The people want Brexit, they voted for it, you wanted a war by voting down the Withdrawal Agreement, a war you have now got.
As you are incapable of independent thought, let me spell it out for you again.
There is no majority for no deal. There is no majority for suspending parliament. The polls are clear.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
So you think it's acceptable that an unelected Prime Minister who has yet to face a vote leading a government with no majority pursuing a policy that has never been put to the electorate should seek to impose that policy by suspending Parliament?
Surely the aim is to get Labour to table a VoNC before the prorogue begins and for the government to lose and have an election forced upon them?
Personally I think people won't forget this and while Boris will win a majority, it will be wafer thin, little better than today.
And Labour best plan is to get an Act through blocking No Deal first and only calling for a VONC if it fails
Evening all. I've been away for a few days in Greece, the cradle of democracy. Looks like I've missed an eventful couple of days.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
It does seem as if Johnson and Cummins genuinely believe the No Deal is going to be an endpoint. They may find they are wrong.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
So you think it's acceptable that an unelected Prime Minister who has yet to face a vote leading a government with no majority pursuing a policy that has never been put to the electorate should seek to impose that policy by suspending Parliament?
Surely the aim is to get Labour to table a VoNC before the prorogue begins and for the government to lose and have an election forced upon them?
Personally I think people won't forget this and while Boris will win a majority, it will be wafer thin, little better than today.
That is the aim. Interestingly, the Conservative constitutionalists are still talking about legislation. Since few know more about the workings of Parliament than Oliver Letwin and he is one of the Parliamentarians who is able to work constructively cross-party, they may still be going that route.
If so, Boris Johnson is potentially lacking a means of propulsion while floating on an inlet of effluent.
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
An hour ago you told me that it was untrue that the front pages in Scotland a dream for the SNP. I await your apology expectantly. Or have you now given up on any kind of pretence that the truth matters?
This is a terrible day for the Scottish tories. I can see no upside anywhere. Will Ruth leave the Tory party altogether? If so then others may follow and Boris may lose his majority. If the result is the Tory party break away in Scotland then I would support this move.
38% of Scottish voters voted Leave, more even than the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party 2nd, the Tories are now second again so wrong.
Plus any Unionist Tory voting anti No Deal Remainers will likely go LD not SNP anyway
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
An hour ago you told me that it was untrue that the front pages in Scotland a dream for the SNP. I await your apology expectantly. Or have you now given up on any kind of pretence that the truth matters?
This is a terrible day for the Scottish tories. I can see no upside anywhere. Will Ruth leave the Tory party altogether? If so then others may follow and Boris may lose his majority. If the result is the Tory party break away in Scotland then I would support this move.
I would also. They need their own Scots identity, and quickly, to fight for the union
Evening all. I've been away for a few days in Greece, the cradle of democracy. Looks like I've missed an eventful couple of days.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
It does seem as if Johnson and Cummins genuinely believe the No Deal is going to be an endpoint. They may find they are wrong.
No Deal isn't an end point - it just removes all the legal agreements that exist and requires them to be recreated, individually, agreement by agreement, That is likely to take decades
I would expect the Tory vote to be up and the LD vote to be up, with the Brexit vote falling back in the Tories and Boris' favour and Labour maybe even falling to third as Remainers go LD and we polarise on Brexit lines.
Ah ha that'll be Boris "bringing the country together".
Boris is preparing for war with diehard Remainers who refused to respect the will of the people and implement the Leave vote. They could have voted for the Withdrawal Agreement if they wanted to bring the country together, they did not so revoke v no deal civil war it will likely be
38% of Scots voted to Leave the EU, more even the 28% who voted Tory in 2017. Not one poll has the SNP polling over 50%, the biggest gainers since 2017 in Scotland have been the LDs and the Brexit Party NOT the SNP
An hour ago you told me that it was untrue that the front pages in Scotland a dream for the SNP. I await your apology expectantly. Or have you now given up on any kind of pretence that the truth matters?
They aren't, as I said the Daily Record is a pro Labour, anti Tory paper and prefers the SNP to the Tories and all the Scottish only papers are pro Remain despite 38% of Scots voting Leave
In what way are these headlines not a dream for the SNP? They are a direct assault on the idea of the union, illustrated by the poster child of unionism.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
It seems to me that today’s debate is exactly what Cummings wanted. And he’ll love the idea of some remainers having a pop at Her Majesty as that’s a brilliant way to split the cause when the likes of Sir John Major won’t go along with it.
If remainers want to beat this man they need to be united and to have a clear plan. This won’t be the end of it this week. There’ll be more from Cummings - probably popular domestic policies. If remainers let him dictate the pace, and don’t get inside his decision cycle, they will lose.
People are welcome to want to change a terrible system and think Charles et al are personally terrible. But pretending it’s about if HM would be personally popular enough to get the position in an election is avoiding whether it is good or terrible and focusing on the individuals. There are no shortage of arguments against it without going down that weak sauce route.
Could I as a fairly convinced republican play devil's advocate for a passing moment?
Charles seems to genuinely love his sons & they him, he and Camilla seem to make each other happy, he ploughs his own furrow (frequently to his own detriment) and he's far preferable to his ghastly brothers. If we have to have an out of touch, over privileged product of a limited gene pool imposed on us, we could do worse.
Phew, glad I got that out of my system.
Monarchist opponents of Prince Charles do seem to lack understanding of how monarchs are chosen. Merit doesn't come into it.
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
A friend of mine met Prince Charles recently and was really impressed with the effort that he put into fulfilling this weird role of being a visiting dignitary, putting the people he was there to meet at ease and at least appearing to be genuinely interested.
We've arguably been in a critical period for years, during which Parliament has achieved nothing. And if it gets its way it will just keep kicking the can until 2022 whilst it continues to achieve nothing.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
It's called democracy. You don't get to call time on it just because you're impatient to throw yourself into your death cult antics.
Oh for God's sake, it's not as if Parliament is being deprived of agency here. The Government has decided that it is determined to get out of the EU on October 31st. If Parliament disagrees then it can vote out the Government and install one that will reverse the policy. Whatever else the events of the past day have done, they haven't closed this route. It is available both before and after the period of Prorogation.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
So you think it's acceptable that an unelected Prime Minister who has yet to face a vote leading a government with no majority pursuing a policy that has never been put to the electorate should seek to impose that policy by suspending Parliament?
Surely the aim is to get Labour to table a VoNC before the prorogue begins and for the government to lose and have an election forced upon them?
Personally I think people won't forget this and while Boris will win a majority, it will be wafer thin, little better than today.
It's a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one. Johnson has to hope he can squeeze the Brexit Party enough while hanging onto enough of the never-mind-what-are-like-i-have-always-voted-Tory crowd and at the same time Labour and the Lib Dems exactly split the opposition.
To everyone complaining. Parliament has had three years to say what it wants and multiple attempts, including that farcical Letwin process. It has had three chances to avoid no deal.
Precisely what have MPs achieved during that time?
So you think the country should be impoverished to teach the errant MPs a lesson?
Comments
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1166821430455132163
The rebel alliance will of course suspect him of that …. will they dare legislate to require revoke if the extension is refused?
Do they try their hardest to ensure the most fervent Brexiteers and the most fervent remainers review the papers at the same time because it's "balanced", because it's "good TV", is it just that Brexit is so polarising it's the inevitable outcome, or is it all 3?
Meanwhile, the outcome of the 2016 referendum, which the vast bulk of Parliament voted to hold, continues to remain unimplemented. Somehow we are meant to regard MPs having had some utterly useless hot air generation time taken off them as a major constitutional outrage, whereas a total disregard for an exercise in mass democracy that most of them appear to wish to set aside is, presumably, all fair and above board?
Parliament doesn't need more time. It has had enough time. It needs to make its collective mind up as to whether to let this Government do what it plans or to throw it out. How many more months or years are we meant to wait whilst it dithers?
Though I too quite like Charles. He cares about the country and the world.
I cannot recall the 'mute' button being used so often
Taken to absurdity, your argument is that we might dispense of Parliament altogether.
Get a grip.
No 3/4
Yes 11/10
Let us hope those who state that No Deal can be avoided as the end game for this battle, our leaders, are right.
What I find most striking about the government's latest constitutional outrage is that it really is the action of a political suicide cult. If you diligently wanted to search out how to make a no-deal crash-out even more disastrous for the Conservative Party than it would otherwise have to be, then coming up with a no-deal crash-out achieved through manifest cheating designed to deny parliament's right to intervene is an answer of genius: a very, very good way to ensure that the party is consigned in disgrace to the history books.
So what were MPs going to achieve that they couldn't already have done in the last three years?
Harry probably was a Leaver but Meghan has made him into a Remainer
PS - Was it a Minotaur of Greece you went on or a full long holiday?
Give your head a shake.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/us/politics/kirsten-gillibrand-2020-drop-out.html
It was May who was losing Tory voters to the Brexit Party, Corbyn is still losing Remainers to the LDs
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/28/47-27-brits-oppose-parliament-suspension
I’m fairly ambivalent on the monarchy, largely since I can’t see us coming up with a constitutional change which would be an improvement any time soon...
The best tactic would be let the PM dangle and repeatedly ask him how his re-negotiation is proceeding.
Even Corbyn has seen through that plan.
The point is that the heir is not selected on merit, but rather a generic lottery. That is the monarchies principle.
Parliament has the weapons at its disposal. It's up to MPs whether or not they choose to use them.
27% opposed. As I say, that is impressive.
The government has not actually bothered to front anyone, so Kirsty Wark has decided to give a hard time to the Lib Dems and Labour instead.
Wake up, BBC.
Anything could happen to them
I can't support this move.
"Do you wish to remain in the UK?'
For most of the period since the referendum Parliament has been locked out of the Brexit process by Theresa May who refused to debate her negotiating strategy in Parliament (which would have given away our special negotiating tricks, apparently) and even delayed the meaningful vote that the Commons forced her to grant on the Brexit deal that she negotiated without involving Parliament at all.
Even after the Commons had voted down her deal earlier this year, May resisted the suggestion to hold indicative votes - or any other method - that might have helped the Commons to come to a compromise that would have majority support.
When May did, finally, move towards a position that had a chance of commanding majority support in the House - to allow a vote on holding a referendum on her deal - she was prevented from putting this to a vote in the Commons by her party moving against her.
The idea that Parliament has had more than three years to address this issue is revisionism of the first order. They have been blocked from doing so at every turn.
Polls have now become politicised.
They are a demagogue’s charter.
Personally I think people won't forget this and while Boris will win a majority, it will be wafer thin, little better than today.
Mind you I did apologise to him for forecasting Boris would do this today, I really did not think he would
Total number votes 2016 = 33,551,983
Turnout 1992 = 77.7%
Turnout 2016 = 72.2%
If so, Boris Johnson is potentially lacking a means of propulsion while floating on an inlet of effluent.
Plus any Unionist Tory voting anti No Deal Remainers will likely go LD not SNP anyway
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=269157
If remainers want to beat this man they need to be united and to have a clear plan. This won’t be the end of it this week. There’ll be more from Cummings - probably popular domestic policies. If remainers let him dictate the pace, and don’t get inside his decision cycle, they will lose.
It is now upto the opponents to stop no deal and vonc Boris as soon as next week
Goodnight folks and have a restful sleep