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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A man of principles. Boris Johnson and the EU

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Elements of sanity entering the discussion.

    Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.

    Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!

    And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch ;)
    Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
    You would admit though, watching Boris at his press conference with Angela, he did appear gauche and unstatesmanlike?
    Good! We don't need a statesman, we need a grifter who will get this through.
    Bozo’s reputation for hard work and attention to detail being legendary.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:
    I just wonder what Trump would have paid for Greenland. Alaska was bought for only $120 million or so in today's money (roughly 2 cents per acre) which is incredible.

    Alaska is 586,000 square miles and Greenland is 836,000 square miles so about 140% of Alaska.

    If I was Denmark, what would I accept? 100 billion kroner?
    Access to the Arctic is priceless.

    But of course Denmark couldn’t say that so came up with some PC nonsense instead
    But in general you agree with countries trying to buy other countries' territories. Bizarre.
    I don’t have issue with it in principle. Of course it’s a little unusual in the modern era, but if - for example - the US were to pay us for exclusive use of say the Chagas Islands I’d be good with that.

    Similarly we were right to return the New Territories to China when our lease expired
    It's not similarly at all. The lease expired. The idea of buying parts of countries is more than a little unusual. It is bizarre. As the whole planet apart from D Trump (and you?) seems to appreciate.
    The fact that the lease existed in the first place establishes the principle that financial transactions for territory might be appropriate in some circumstances

    I’ve not been the Greenland but I suspect if you offered the inhabitants the chance to become US citizens they would go for it
    Appropriate in the circumstances of the late 19th century, when the lease was established, perhaps. Not so much in the early 21st century.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    He's right, they can. AND THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS ENVISAGED IN THE WA/PD*.

    The point is that - realistically - the technology is going to take two to three years (not 14 months) to implement. The Backstop exists to bridge any gap.

    The solution is a simple one: extend the transition period.

    * This assumes there is no FTA which negates the need for border checks
    There have been rumours the Boris camp could extend the transition period to do precisely that
    Would you happily swallow an extension? Would be one of the most amusing things on PB if so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Sure, some parts of the world are not at the stage of social development as Europe, so may well feel a degree of military threat. In practice these tend to be autocratic countries, and the army is mostly a menace to their own people, as we see at the moment in Shenzen and the implicit threats to Hong Kong. Across most of the world this is true, As democracy has spread through Africa and Latin America, military expenditure has dropped there too.

    A lot of Western countries, notably the USA and UK, have traditionally been suspicious of large standing armies as instruments of tyranny. We had a substantial navy that helped us avoid that European disease of militarism.

    I think it’s almost solely the US and U.K. with the suspicion of standing armies you mention. It’s why we don’t give our police guns and why the US arms its citizens
    The UK does not have a tradition of suspicion of large standing armies. We've had quite a few of them, lots of conscription, and the only reason why the current one is so small is because of money.

    As a rough rule of thumb, Americans are individualists that defends against its Government (so Posse Comitatus rules, states rights, a one-page census form, a constitution with "we the people") but trusts industry (so weaker data protection rules, you can sell blood), but Brits are societal and want a strong Government to act for it (so television licenses, compulsory seatbelts, NHS, a census form on several pages, and constant, constant complaining) but distrust industry (so data protection rules are strict, central blood and organ, um, organisation). Although to be fair things are changing rapidly and I see your point, it wasn't that way in the past
    Disagree - post the civil war we’ve only had large armies during times of war (which were frequent...) - standing armies were much smaller.

    Americans have a fear of State tyranny (the Crown). Brits basically want to be left alone (“my home is my castle”)
    I'm thinking. I could expand the argument to include the Navy and press-gangs, but that's not in the spirit of your point. I would throw in state religions (which England formally has but the US does not), state education, and the UK tendency to centralise. The US and UK handled WW2 differently: the UK converted to a wholly war footing very early and had a lot of state control, wheras US did not militarise its civic society. The nationalisation waves of the Attlee Government were enormous and all-persuasive.
  • Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    I think foxy is drunk. I know the signs.

    Nope, stone cold sober.

    Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.
    Russia and China are spending considerarbly more in real terms because their economies have been growing very nicely in recent decades. The GDP comparison is deeply misleading, you should look at what they've got and what they are building.
    Sure, some parts of the world are no
    I think it’s almost solely the US and U.K. with the suspicion of standing armies you mention. It’s why we don’t give our police guns and why the US arms its citizens
    The UK does not have a tradition of suspicion of large standing armies. We've had quite a few of them, lots of conscription, and the only reason why the current one is so small is because of money.

    As a rough rule of thumb, Americans are individualists that defends against its Government (so Posse Comitatus rules, states rights, a one-page census form, a constitution with "we the people") but trusts industry (so weaker data protection rules, you can sell blood), but Brits are societal and want a strong Government to act for it (so television licenses, compulsory seatbelts, NHS, a census form on several pages, and constant, constant complaining) but distrust industry (so data protection rules are strict, central blood and organ, um, organisation). Although to be fair things are changing rapidly and I see your point, it wasn't that way in the past
    Disagree - post the civil war we’ve only had large armies during times of war (which were frequent...) - standing armies were much smaller.

    Americans have a fear of State tyranny (the Crown). Brits basically want to be left alone (“my home is my castle”)
    Apart from the American Civil War and 1941 onwards, the USA has had a very small military. Despite years of tension, the British Army was a fraction of the size of continental armies in 1914. Indeed I think the Serbs fielded a bigger army. We did have the navy, and a long history of press gangs, but it was a volunteer force apart from 1916-18 and 1939-1962.
    The British Indian Army of WW2 was the largest all-volunteer force ever assembled.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Johnson was bullshitting Merkel. Everyone knows that, except possibly Johnson himself
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    IanB2 said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Elements of sanity entering the discussion.

    Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.

    Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!

    And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch ;)
    Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
    You would admit though, watching Boris at his press conference with Angela, he did appear gauche and unstatesmanlike?
    Good! We don't need a statesman, we need a grifter who will get this through.
    Bozo’s reputation for hard work and attention to detail being legendary.
    If he pulls this off, he will be in Downing Street for a decade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    ‪Johnson has now set himself up to fail on two fronts:‬
    ‪1. Finding an alternative to the backstop.‬
    ‪2. Delivering a pain-free No Deal Brexit.‬
    ‪I know everything has changed in politics, but this doesn’t look smart. What am I missing?‬

    No, Boris has committed to find an alternative to the backstop showing he is doing everything he can to get the only Deal to get a majority through Parliament ie the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop as per the Brady Amendment, agreed with the EU.

    If the EU refuses to help then he can show floating voters he pursued No Deal only as a last resort to deliver Brexit, not as his first choice (though Merkel seemed positive something could be done today)

    Bless you. Merkel played Johnson today while doing the crossword and feeding the cat. His credulous response shows how easy it was. She gave him a deadline. He said thank-you.
    Far from it, it is currently Boris with clear poll leads at home and able to direct Brexit in a manner that is most appealing to the voters he needs to win ie Brexit diehards and floating voters in the middle.

    Merkel is not as strong as she was and her party is barely able to keep ahead of the Greens in the latest German polls
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    No he doesn't. He is leading a party whose policies you vehemently disagree with. You are wholly at odds with his approach. Even you think he is a misguided fool.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    IanB2 said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Elements of sanity entering the discussion.

    Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.

    Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!

    And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch ;)
    Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
    You would admit though, watching Boris at his press conference with Angela, he did appear gauche and unstatesmanlike?
    Good! We don't need a statesman, we need a grifter who will get this through.
    Bozo’s reputation for hard work and attention to detail being legendary.
    If he pulls this off, he will be in Downing Street for a decade.
    Not if Brexit turns out to be bad news, he won’t, however cleverly he delivers it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    He's right, they can. AND THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS ENVISAGED IN THE WA/PD*.

    The point is that - realistically - the technology is going to take two to three years (not 14 months) to implement. The Backstop exists to bridge any gap.

    The solution is a simple one: extend the transition period.

    * This assumes there is no FTA which negates the need for border checks
    There have been rumours the Boris camp could extend the transition period to do precisely that
    Would you happily swallow an extension? Would be one of the most amusing things on PB if so.
    Only if the Withdrawal Agreement had passed so we had delivered Brexit, the transition period requires Brexit first remember
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited August 2019
    Meanwhile HS2 hangs in the balance according to Indie.

    Yet WM Con mayor Street is doomed if it is canned.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    He's right, they can. AND THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS ENVISAGED IN THE WA/PD*.

    The point is that - realistically - the technology is going to take two to three years (not 14 months) to implement. The Backstop exists to bridge any gap.

    The solution is a simple one: extend the transition period.

    * This assumes there is no FTA which negates the need for border checks
    There have been rumours the Boris camp could extend the transition period to do precisely that
    Would you happily swallow an extension? Would be one of the most amusing things on PB if so.
    Only if the Withdrawal Agreement had passed so we had delivered Brexit, the transition period requires Brexit first remember
    What? What happened to do or die?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Whatever your political opinion on Johnson, he does at least look comfortable in his own skin being PM. He likes people.

    The photos tonight in contrast to May's terrified social phobia look at every event are quite stark.

    Yes Boris is the most charismatic PM we have had since Blair, no question
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:
    I just wonder what Trump would have paid for Greenland. Alaska was bought for only $120 million or so in today's money (roughly 2 cents per acre) which is incredible.

    Alaska is 586,000 square miles and Greenland is 836,000 square miles so about 140% of Alaska.

    If I was Denmark, what would I accept? 100 billion kroner?
    Access to the Arctic is priceless.

    But of course Denmark couldn’t say that so came up with some PC nonsense instead
    But in general you agree with countries trying to buy other countries' territories. Bizarre.
    I don’t have issue with it in principle. Of course it’s a little unusual in the modern era, but if - for example - the US were to pay us for exclusive use of say the Chagas Islands I’d be good with that.

    Similarly we were right to return the New Territories to China when our lease expired
    It's not similarly at all. The lease expired. The idea of buying parts of countries is more than a little unusual. It is bizarre. As the whole planet apart from D Trump (and you?) seems to appreciate.
    The fact that the lease existed in the first place establishes the principle that financial transactions for territory might be appropriate in some circumstances

    I’ve not been the Greenland but I suspect if you offered the inhabitants the chance to become US citizens they would go for it
    We, of course, lease the island of Diego Garcia to the Americans.
  • No deal plan averted.

    Sell canned goods
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    Whatever your political opinion on Johnson, he does at least look comfortable in his own skin being PM. He likes people.

    The photos tonight in contrast to May's terrified social phobia look at every event are quite stark.

    Yes Boris is the most charismatic PM we have had since Blair, no question
    Corbyn is pretty charismatic. Still as much of a tosser as Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    He's right, they can. AND THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS ENVISAGED IN THE WA/PD*.

    The point is that - realistically - the technology is going to take two to three years (not 14 months) to implement. The Backstop exists to bridge any gap.

    The solution is a simple one: extend the transition period.

    * This assumes there is no FTA which negates the need for border checks
    There have been rumours the Boris camp could extend the transition period to do precisely that
    Would you happily swallow an extension? Would be one of the most amusing things on PB if so.
    Only if the Withdrawal Agreement had passed so we had delivered Brexit, the transition period requires Brexit first remember
    What? What happened to do or die?
    Nothing, the transition period only happens once Brexit has been delivered with a Deal, though I still prefer No Deal to further delay of Brexit or revoke and remain
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ‪Johnson has now set himself up to fail on two fronts:‬
    ‪1. Finding an alternative to the backstop.‬
    ‪2. Delivering a pain-free No Deal Brexit.‬
    ‪I know everything has changed in politics, but this doesn’t look smart. What am I missing?‬

    No, Boris has committed to find an alternative to the backstop showing he is doing everything he can to get the only Deal to get a majority through Parliament ie the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop as per the Brady Amendment, agreed with the EU.

    If the EU refuses to help then he can show floating voters he pursued No Deal only as a last resort to deliver Brexit, not as his first choice (though Merkel seemed positive something could be done today)

    Bless you. Merkel played Johnson today while doing the crossword and feeding the cat. His credulous response shows how easy it was. She gave him a deadline. He said thank-you.
    Far from it, it is currently Boris with clear poll leads at home and able to direct Brexit in a manner that is most appealing to the voters he needs to win ie Brexit diehards and floating voters in the middle.

    Merkel is not as strong as she was and her party is barely able to keep ahead of the Greens in the latest German polls

    Show us your unicorns, Herr Johnson.

    Yes, Angela. Anything you say Angela. Thirty days, Angela? Thank-you so very much.

  • geoffw said:

    An independent Scotland could perhaps extricate itself from looming bankruptcy by offering itself for sale.

    They've done that once already when they sold themselves to England.
    Ho, impecunious, fuckwitted aristos did that, comrade.
    A decision that was endorsed by the Scottish people in September 2014.
    Only with the promise that it would ensure continuing EU membership. That turned out well.
    Someone call the Whaaambulance
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    HYUFD’s insanity seems to mirror Trump’s.
    Can we be sure they are not the same person?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    He's right, they can. AND THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS ENVISAGED IN THE WA/PD*.

    The point is that - realistically - the technology is going to take two to three years (not 14 months) to implement. The Backstop exists to bridge any gap.

    The solution is a simple one: extend the transition period.

    * This assumes there is no FTA which negates the need for border checks
    There have been rumours the Boris camp could extend the transition period to do precisely that
    Would you happily swallow an extension? Would be one of the most amusing things on PB if so.
    Only if the Withdrawal Agreement had passed so we had delivered Brexit, the transition period requires Brexit first remember
    What? What happened to do or die?
    Nothing, the transition period only happens once Brexit has been delivered with a Deal, though I still prefer No Deal to further delay of Brexit or revoke and remain
    No you don't. You prefer to remain in the EU and to stay in the single market and the customs union.

    That is what you prefer.

    Indeed not only do you prefer it you voted for it. And good for you, a man of reliable principles, that you did and still do think like that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whatever your political opinion on Johnson, he does at least look comfortable in his own skin being PM. He likes people.

    The photos tonight in contrast to May's terrified social phobia look at every event are quite stark.

    Yes Boris is the most charismatic PM we have had since Blair, no question
    Corbyn is pretty charismatic. Still as much of a tosser as Boris.
    No he isn't, Corbyn was mildly more charismatic than May, he is not even in the same league of charisma as Boris, nor intelligence either for that matter
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:
    I just wonder what Trump would have paid for Greenland. Alaska was bought for only $120 million or so in today's money (roughly 2 cents per acre) which is incredible.

    Alaska is 586,000 square miles and Greenland is 836,000 square miles so about 140% of Alaska.

    If I was Denmark, what would I accept? 100 billion kroner?
    Access to the Arctic is priceless.

    But of course Denmark couldn’t say that so came up with some PC nonsense instead
    But in general you agree with countries trying to buy other countries' territories. Bizarre.
    I don’t have issue with it in principle. Of course it’s a little unusual in the modern era, but if - for example - the US were to pay us for exclusive use of say the Chagas Islands I’d be good with that.

    Similarly we were right to return the New Territories to China when our lease expired
    It's not similarly at all. The lease expired. The idea of buying parts of countries is more than a little unusual. It is bizarre. As the whole planet apart from D Trump (and you?) seems to appreciate.
    The fact that the lease existed in the first place establishes the principle that financial transactions for territory might be appropriate in some circumstances

    I’ve not been the Greenland but I suspect if you offered the inhabitants the chance to become US citizens they would go for it
    Appropriate in the circumstances of the late 19th century, when the lease was established, perhaps. Not so much in the early 21st century.
    We lease the Chagos Islands to the Americans and don't care much about the sovereignty of the islanders. So selling places against the will of the inhabitants is still British policy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    OT. I am extremely saddened that this week looks to be the end of Bolton Wanderers (3 senior players, now no manager or assistant) and Bury (Friday deadline to stump up a large sum of money or be expelled from EFL. 8 players, but no games played this season).
    2 venerable sporting institutions both past winners of the FA Cup. It is a long time since any league club was liquidated, now we could have two from the same area in short order.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whatever your political opinion on Johnson, he does at least look comfortable in his own skin being PM. He likes people.

    The photos tonight in contrast to May's terrified social phobia look at every event are quite stark.

    Yes Boris is the most charismatic PM we have had since Blair, no question
    Corbyn is pretty charismatic. Still as much of a tosser as Boris.
    No he isn't, Corbyn was mildly more charismatic than May, he is not even in the same league of charisma as Boris, nor intelligence either for that matter
    Both espouse policies you vehemently disagree with.
  • This Blue on Blue, Topping at HYUFD was boring at the start.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    This Blue on Blue, Topping at HYUFD was boring at the start.

    Go to bed then sunshine.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Biden. Already running against Trump, not the other Dems. And still available at 3.8.

    https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1164265358456512513
  • This Blue on Blue, Topping at HYUFD was boring at the start.

    Okay, I retract, it was funny the first day. But I mean it's been weeks now...
  • TOPPING said:

    This Blue on Blue, Topping at HYUFD was boring at the start.

    Go to bed then sunshine.
    Little chance of that - I've just logged on for the day. Time to see what the nightshift get up to I feel.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    This Blue on Blue, Topping at HYUFD was boring at the start.

    Okay, I retract, it was funny the first day. But I mean it's been weeks now...
    Some people just won't listen...

    But I am now taking my own advice and going to bed. A domain.


  • fair points

    but as has been pointed out Germany has no intention or capability to police Europe. It freeloads off the US and needs the apperance of the EU to leverage its position. It has now avoidably put itself in the position where iit will have to make major revisions to its position. Yugoslavia and Ukraine were acts forced on Germany by others, Brexit is entirely self inflicted.
    It's not about policing but defending Europe. Germany's Army is of comparable size to the UK's.
    Admittedly it can and will do more in the future, but allegations of "freeloading" are risible.
    The US are spending above 4% of GDP not to defend Europe but on nonsense like Iraq and similar, which then creates other problems we have to deal with.
    That's no contribution to European security.

    The Bundeswehr doesnt have any useful capacity, van der Leyen screwed it up totally. Submarines that cant sail, planes that cant fly for lack of spare parts, armour that rusts in its garages. Militarily Germany is not a reliable partner .

    A little harsh, but not entirely unfair.
    Some parts of the German military are in a lamentable state indeed, others not so much.
    Overall, I think its fair to say, roughly on par with their British counterparts.
    We're both lagging behind the French somewhat. What does that say?
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    Not to mention ejaculatory.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Biden. Already running against Trump, not the other Dems. And still available at 3.8.

    https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1164265358456512513

    A good value lay IMO.
  • Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    Not to mention ejaculatory.
    Late night divvie eh?

    Why are you called Union divvie when you're anti-union. You used to be DevoMax didnt' you?

    Both very silly names but don't worry I always had you down as CYBERNAT
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Byronic said:
    I did suggest earlier that recent days proved he needed an intervention.
    Which is something I've never thought before, (there have been far worse Presidents recently in terms of actual, practical havoc wreaking as opposed to bollock speaking).
    Was told I was falling into his cunning plan to distract from bad news by winding up Liberals.
    Fact is. I've always seen through that ploy. This isn't that. This isn't firing up his base, or bashing the SJWs, this is incoherent nonsense.
    For the first time, I fear the President is genuinely unhinged.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    HYUFD’s insanity seems to mirror Trump’s.
    Can we be sure they are not the same person?
    Better not get too tetchy then if I am the most powerful man in the world
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Lol 30 days to solve an issue that took 100 years or so to fix last time?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Floater said:

    About that backstop.....

    Just out of interest those remainers who have been swooning over the approaching end of days, will you accept it if we leave with a revised deal?

    There are no good solutions available thanks to Brexit.. "Vassal State" at least limits the damage
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited August 2019
    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:
    I did suggest earlier that recent days proved he needed an intervention.
    Which is something I've never thought before, (there have been far worse Presidents recently in terms of actual, practical havoc wreaking as opposed to bollock speaking).
    Was told I was falling into his cunning plan to distract from bad news by winding up Liberals.
    Fact is. I've always seen through that ploy. This isn't that. This isn't firing up his base, or bashing the SJWs, this is incoherent nonsense.
    For the first time, I fear the President is genuinely unhinged.
    Unfortunately the system relies on the US administration Cabinet doing something and they are all picked by Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    He's right, they can. AND THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS ENVISAGED IN THE WA/PD*.

    The point is that - realistically - the technology is going to take two to three years (not 14 months) to implement. The Backstop exists to bridge any gap.

    The solution is a simple one: extend the transition period.

    * This assumes there is no FTA which negates the need for border checks
    There have been rumours the Boris camp could extend the transition period to do precisely that
    Would you happily swallow an extension? Would be one of the most amusing things on PB if so.
    Only if the Withdrawal Agreement had passed so we had delivered Brexit, the transition period requires Brexit first remember
    What? What happened to do or die?
    Nothing, the transition period only happens once Brexit has been delivered with a Deal, though I still prefer No Deal to further delay of Brexit or revoke and remain
    No you don't. You prefer to remain in the EU and to stay in the single market and the customs union.

    That is what you prefer.

    Indeed not only do you prefer it you voted for it. And good for you, a man of reliable principles, that you did and still do think like that.
    No I don't, I now back leaving the EU and single market and customs union and ending free movement and doing our own trade deals, in a decade or so I might consider rejoining the single market once immigration is under control but not the full EU now, especially as we might lose the opt outs we had when I voted Remain anyway
  • Divvie too slow - I'm off to bed
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Foxy said:

    Biden. Already running against Trump, not the other Dems. And still available at 3.8.

    https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1164265358456512513

    A good value lay IMO.
    We shall see. I have just topped up a few quid.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    FF43 said:

    Floater said:

    About that backstop.....

    Just out of interest those remainers who have been swooning over the approaching end of days, will you accept it if we leave with a revised deal?

    There are no good solutions available thanks to Brexit.. "Vassal State" at least limits the damage
    Vassal state would be ok you think?

    Not a lot I can say - seek help
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    Not to mention ejaculatory.
    You can put postwar PMs in 4 categories in terms of charisma and presence on the world stage.

    Top tier Churchill, Thatcher, Blair

    Second tier Attlee (albeit top tier for getting his domestic agenda through), Macmillan, Wilson, Cameron

    Third tier Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major

    Last tier Eden, Brown and May.

    Boris certainly has the potential to be top tier and certainly at least second tier
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Foxy said:

    Biden. Already running against Trump, not the other Dems. And still available at 3.8.

    https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1164265358456512513

    A good value lay IMO.
    We shall see. I have just topped up a few quid.
    I see that the field is thinning out, 10 so far for the next debate. I think Warren will be the candidate.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/abc-news-announces-details-democratic-primary-debate/story?id=65077321
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    edited August 2019
    Floater said:

    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
    And something very easy to do here. Barnier demanded too much from the UK and now Macron is refusing to compromise even slightly. I don't see how No Deal is avoided at this point.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    dixiedean said:

    OT. I am extremely saddened that this week looks to be the end of Bolton Wanderers (3 senior players, now no manager or assistant) and Bury (Friday deadline to stump up a large sum of money or be expelled from EFL. 8 players, but no games played this season).
    2 venerable sporting institutions both past winners of the FA Cup. It is a long time since any league club was liquidated, now we could have two from the same area in short order.

    That is sad.

    My love affair with the mighty Gillingham (no sniggering at the back) started after a newspaper appeal for people to go watch them as they were on verge of going under.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Floater said:

    FF43 said:

    Floater said:

    About that backstop.....

    Just out of interest those remainers who have been swooning over the approaching end of days, will you accept it if we leave with a revised deal?

    There are no good solutions available thanks to Brexit.. "Vassal State" at least limits the damage
    Vassal state would be ok you think?

    Not a lot I can say - seek help
    I didn't vote for it. You did.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:
    Correct. Mr. Johnson has indeed said what Shankar Singham's AAC prompted him to say.
    Do you really believe that him saying it makes these things come true?
    You are oddly well informed on British politics. Impressive. May we know why, approximately? - there is no obligation to identify yourself with detail, if you prefer not to.
    Being half way informed on British politics seems neither odd nor impressive to me, I guess I was just born curious.
    And, of course, there's no obligation to identify oneselves with detail, "Mr. Byronic" (or "Mr. Tremayne?")
    Colour me a tiny bit skeptical as to whether you are really Matthias from Hamburg, an average German guy who just happens to be wandering onto a British political blog. But, also, colour me intrigued. Subterfuge is fun.

    Also, ich bin nicht er.
    Shocking to think that someone might create a sock puppet persona. Of course some expend more effort on this than others.
    Indeed. Some of us expend precisely zero effort!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    Floater said:

    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
    And something very easy to do here. Barnier demanded too much from the UK and now Macron is refusing to compromise even slightly. I don't see how No Deal is avoided at this point.
    Both Barnier and Macron are French of course and the French vetoed our entry in the first place under De Gaulle.

    The French being a Catholic and Latin people have always considered us a Protestant Anglo Saxon nation with more in common with the USA and the Anglosphere than continental Europe. Germany of course being a fellow Protestant Anglo Saxon nation has always been more supportive of our EU membership
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    Not to mention ejaculatory.
    You can put postwar PMs in 4 categories in terms of charisma and presence on the world stage.

    Top tier Churchill, Thatcher, Blair

    Second tier Attlee (albeit top tier for getting his domestic agenda through), Macmillan, Wilson, Cameron

    Third tier Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major

    Last tier Eden, Brown and May.

    Boris certainly has the potential to be top tier and certainly at least second tier
    The Right Honourable
    Boris Johnson
    MP

    Assumed office
    23 July 2019

    I think premature and ejaculatory covers it.
    So to speak.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517
    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel meeting.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative completely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and tentative and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more


    For crying out loud man, take a cold shower.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Anyway, I don't think Merkel does think a solution can be found in 30 days. I think what she meant is that she is agnostic about the backstop. I believe she said the backstop isn't up to her, negotiations would be run as a common approach through the EU and it has to work for Ireland.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    OT. I am extremely saddened that this week looks to be the end of Bolton Wanderers (3 senior players, now no manager or assistant) and Bury (Friday deadline to stump up a large sum of money or be expelled from EFL. 8 players, but no games played this season).
    2 venerable sporting institutions both past winners of the FA Cup. It is a long time since any league club was liquidated, now we could have two from the same area in short order.

    That is sad.

    My love affair with the mighty Gillingham (no sniggering at the back) started after a newspaper appeal for people to go watch them as they were on verge of going under.
    Yes. Many of my friends at school were Wanderers or Shakers fans. To lose them both will be a hammer blow to individuals and communities. Love affair is correct.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    With all the things Trump has been coming out with today - odd even for him - can the 25th Amendment be long delayed?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517
    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:
    I did suggest earlier that recent days proved he needed an intervention.
    Which is something I've never thought before, (there have been far worse Presidents recently in terms of actual, practical havoc wreaking as opposed to bollock speaking).
    Was told I was falling into his cunning plan to distract from bad news by winding up Liberals.
    Fact is. I've always seen through that ploy. This isn't that. This isn't firing up his base, or bashing the SJWs, this is incoherent nonsense.
    For the first time, I fear the President is genuinely unhinged.
    Your analysis is correct on both counts.

    1. There have been far worse (simply because Trumpton is a lazy twat with no agency, so has done fuck all)
    2. He’s doolally

  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    CatMan said:

    I'm SeanT!

    (Not really)

    Maybe, deep down, we're all SeanT.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    Not to mention ejaculatory.
    You can put postwar PMs in 4 categories in terms of charisma and presence on the world stage.

    Top tier Churchill, Thatcher, Blair

    Second tier Attlee (albeit top tier for getting his domestic agenda through), Macmillan, Wilson, Cameron

    Third tier Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major

    Last tier Eden, Brown and May.

    Boris certainly has the potential to be top tier and certainly at least second tier
    Reckon you are right. Although Attlee is probably Sui Generis. He'd be bottom tier on charisma, but, as the midwife to our atomic bomb, probably first tier in world stage terms.
    Boris has many, many months, if not years to go before he gets a ranking.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:
    I just wonder what Trump would have paid for Greenland. Alaska was bought for only $120 million or so in today's money (roughly 2 cents per acre) which is incredible.

    Alaska is 586,000 square miles and Greenland is 836,000 square miles so about 140% of Alaska.

    If I was Denmark, what would I accept? 100 billion kroner?
    Access to the Arctic is priceless.

    But of course Denmark couldn’t say that so came up with some PC nonsense instead
    But in general you agree with countries trying to buy other countries' territories. Bizarre.
    I don’t have issue with it in principle. Of course it’s a little unusual in the modern era, but if - for example - the US were to pay us for exclusive use of say the Chagas Islands I’d be good with that.

    Similarly we were right to return the New Territories to China when our lease expired
    It's not similarly at all. The lease expired. The idea of buying parts of countries is more than a little unusual. It is bizarre. As the whole planet apart from D Trump (and you?) seems to appreciate.
    The fact that the lease existed in the first place establishes the principle that financial transactions for territory might be appropriate in some circumstances

    I’ve not been the Greenland but I suspect if you offered the inhabitants the chance to become US citizens they would go for it
    Appropriate in the circumstances of the late 19th century, when the lease was established, perhaps. Not so much in the early 21st century.
    We lease the Chagos Islands to the Americans and don't care much about the sovereignty of the islanders. So selling places against the will of the inhabitants is still British policy.
    Yes, but in the late 19th century the peoples of land transferred in such a way were not able to take their case to the British courts, or to win support at the UN to censure such transfers.

    There seems a clear change in the context.
  • dixiedean said:

    OT. I am extremely saddened that this week looks to be the end of Bolton Wanderers (3 senior players, now no manager or assistant) and Bury (Friday deadline to stump up a large sum of money or be expelled from EFL. 8 players, but no games played this season).
    2 venerable sporting institutions both past winners of the FA Cup. It is a long time since any league club was liquidated, now we could have two from the same area in short order.

    Surely there must be some locals with sufficient funds and love for their teams to get behind the clubs? Or is the cost of ownership now just too astronomical.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    BBC News at 10 and ITV news leading on the Boris and Merkel language.

    Ignoring the policy and backstop or any potential alternative copletely there is a real body language change between Boris and May. When May met Merkel Merkel was clearly the stronger and more confident party, with May more hunched and reserved, however today Boris looked confident and strong and spoke straight to camera and met Merkel on at least equal terms if not more

    Even though he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with. You still seem to revere him. Very strange. Quite admire Corbyn do you?
    No, I back Brexit Deal or No Deal.

    Seriously though there are only 3 UK PMs in my lifetime who have genuinely looked like world leaders and confident on the world stage, Thatcher, Blair and now Boris, with maybe Cameron halfway there. Boris is making his mark already
    Boris does not look like a world leader and he is pursuing a policy that you vehemently disagree with to boot. Why do you indulge him so?
    Of course Boris looks like a world leader, despite your dislike of him Boris is already up there with Churchill, Thatcher and Blair in his presence and recognition on the world stage
    Bloody hell, calm down that's a bit premature
    Not to mention ejaculatory.
    You can put postwar PMs in 4 categories in terms of charisma and presence on the world stage.

    Top tier Churchill, Thatcher, Blair

    Second tier Attlee (albeit top tier for getting his domestic agenda through), Macmillan, Wilson, Cameron

    Third tier Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major

    Last tier Eden, Brown and May.

    Boris certainly has the potential to be top tier and certainly at least second tier
    Reckon you are right. Although Attlee is probably Sui Generis. He'd be bottom tier on charisma, but, as the midwife to our atomic bomb, probably first tier in world stage terms.
    Boris has many, many months, if not years to go before he gets a ranking.
    Attlee belongs in the first tier on policy impact grounds but not charisma and global presence grounds
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    FF43 said:

    Anyway, I don't think Merkel does think a solution can be found in 30 days. I think what she meant is that she is agnostic about the backstop. I believe she said the backstop isn't up to her, negotiations would be run as a common approach through the EU and it has to work for Ireland.

    It's a 30 day chance more than May ever got....

    Of course, if Boris does pull a rabbit out a hat -

    * Crikey! I wondered where that vibrator had gone....*

    - then the last two years of May dicking about will have been demonstrated to be the worst period for both government and civil service in recent history. Blair and Iraq aside, the worst for a very long time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    houndtang said:

    CatMan said:

    I'm SeanT!

    (Not really)

    Maybe, deep down, we're all SeanT.
    So where's my twenty year old hot bride then?

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    OT. I am extremely saddened that this week looks to be the end of Bolton Wanderers (3 senior players, now no manager or assistant) and Bury (Friday deadline to stump up a large sum of money or be expelled from EFL. 8 players, but no games played this season).
    2 venerable sporting institutions both past winners of the FA Cup. It is a long time since any league club was liquidated, now we could have two from the same area in short order.

    Surely there must be some locals with sufficient funds and love for their teams to get behind the clubs? Or is the cost of ownership now just too astronomical.
    The level of debt is astronomical. Bolton have had £150m of debt written off by Eddie Davies their former owner. Easily serviceable when they were in the PL. This dates back to the sale of Burnden Park, a walkable town centre location on the cheap, and a move 8 miles out of town at exactly the wrong time. A big, retail park in the late 90s. Just before Online shopping.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    houndtang said:

    CatMan said:

    I'm SeanT!

    (Not really)

    Maybe, deep down, we're all SeanT.
    So where's my twenty year old hot bride then?

    With @Byronic? ;)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    HYUFD said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Floater said:

    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
    And something very easy to do here. Barnier demanded too much from the UK and now Macron is refusing to compromise even slightly. I don't see how No Deal is avoided at this point.
    Both Barnier and Macron are French of course and the French vetoed our entry in the first place under De Gaulle.

    The French being a Catholic and Latin people have always considered us a Protestant Anglo Saxon nation with more in common with the USA and the Anglosphere than continental Europe. Germany of course being a fellow Protestant Anglo Saxon nation has always been more supportive of our EU membership
    Germany is a Protestant nation? Bayern says hello.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Floater said:

    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
    And something very easy to do here. Barnier demanded too much from the UK and now Macron is refusing to compromise even slightly. I don't see how No Deal is avoided at this point.
    Both Barnier and Macron are French of course and the French vetoed our entry in the first place under De Gaulle.

    The French being a Catholic and Latin people have always considered us a Protestant Anglo Saxon nation with more in common with the USA and the Anglosphere than continental Europe. Germany of course being a fellow Protestant Anglo Saxon nation has always been more supportive of our EU membership
    Germany is a Protestant nation? Bayern says hello.
    Bayern says Grüß Gott.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Floater said:

    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
    And something very easy to do here. Barnier demanded too much from the UK and now Macron is refusing to compromise even slightly. I don't see how No Deal is avoided at this point.
    Both Barnier and Macron are French of course and the French vetoed our entry in the first place under De Gaulle.

    The French being a Catholic and Latin people have always considered us a Protestant Anglo Saxon nation with more in common with the USA and the Anglosphere than continental Europe. Germany of course being a fellow Protestant Anglo Saxon nation has always been more supportive of our EU membership
    Germany is a Protestant nation? Bayern says hello.
    When Germany was first created by Bismarck in 1871 it was 2/3 Protestant and 1/3 Catholic and even then Bavaria was majority Catholic so that does not change the point
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534

    Biden. Already running against Trump, not the other Dems. And still available at 3.8.

    https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1164265358456512513

    The strong and stable bit still makes me smile. Wonder if it'll work better for him than it did for TM.
  • edbedb Posts: 66
    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edb said:

    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.

    Well you would be putting contract law/international treaty law into direct conflict with the right of self-determination, as enshrined in the UN charter.

    This doesn't seem like a sensible idea.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    edb said:

    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.

    Offer the locals a million bucks each to become the 51st State. It would be a mere $56 billion. Bugger all for that much real estate.

    Then see how they vote.....
  • edbedb Posts: 66
    Not saying they shouldnt get a say, or that this particular one is a good idea. It should be mutual. But "self determination" is actually a lot more nebulous than its proponents would like to admit. Most borders are essentially accidents of history. Noone in greenland chose to be ruled by denmark rather than, say, Peru.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    edb said:

    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.

    Offer the locals a million bucks each to become the 51st State. It would be a mere $56 billion. Bugger all for that much real estate.

    Then see how they vote.....
    Indeed. Trump just lost the Senate in a flash.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Floater said:

    Drutt said:

    A flawless victory in the no-deal blame game for both Boris and Merkel: BLAME THE FRENCH.
    Something most right minded people around the world can live with.
    And something very easy to do here. Barnier demanded too much from the UK and now Macron is refusing to compromise even slightly. I don't see how No Deal is avoided at this point.
    Both Barnier and Macron are French of course and the French vetoed our entry in the first place under De Gaulle.

    The French being a Catholic and Latin people have always considered us a Protestant Anglo Saxon nation with more in common with the USA and the Anglosphere than continental Europe. Germany of course being a fellow Protestant Anglo Saxon nation has always been more supportive of our EU membership
    Germany is a Protestant nation? Bayern says hello.
    When Germany was first created by Bismarck in 1871 it was 2/3 Protestant and 1/3 Catholic and even then Bavaria was majority Catholic so that does not change the point
    Is the Church of England Protestant? Most. Protestants don't consider it to be so. It is Anglo-Catholic at best.
  • matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited August 2019
    FF43 said:

    Anyway, I don't think Merkel does think a solution can be found in 30 days. I think what she meant is that she is agnostic about the backstop. I believe she said the backstop isn't up to her, negotiations would be run as a common approach through the EU and it has to work for Ireland.

    Fwiw, I think, that she thinks, that basically the only solution is the one already on the table.
    Even after a reformulation (after another extension) the effect of the legal mechanics needs to be the same, i.e. allowing Ireland at the same time an open border with NI and the rest of the EU.

    I think she herself would favour a solution that has been proposed by HUYFD, I believe, NI referendum on the backstop and bribing the DUP to complain about the border in the Irish Sea a little less loudly.

    But I doubt that she will want to play a visibly active role. Her last significant intervention in the process occurred when Elmar Brook succeeded in persuading her to trust Mrs. May's reassurances, that the widening of the backstop to all of the UK would enable her to outmanoeuvre the DUP.
    Having promoted a positive response to Mrs. May's request among her peers, the subsequent failure of Mrs. May to effectively "sell" it as the valuable, generous and significant concession that it was to her domestic audience, made Mrs. Merkel's use of influence appear in hindsight as an unfortunate misallocation of political capital.

    I think she will be reluctant to invest too much in Mr. Johnson.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    Endillion said:

    Scott_P said:
    She's changed her position. She's said she's willing to discuss alternatives to the backstop. What more do you think Johnson wants at this point?
    Is she seated due to her recent wobbliness?
    What an arse. We’ll see how you cope with being old.
    I'm not being an arse, I like Angela Merkel, think she's a fine stateswoman, and wish her abundant health and a long and active political life. However, her health is a subject of interest, and the choice to be seated is potentially an indication she's not back up to full strength.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    IMO what we need is a return to the "soft liberalism" of the 1990s. The problem is that almost no-one is advocating that at the moment.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019


    the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.

    Crimea was virtually inevitable since the twin idiocies of Kosovo and Iraq.

    But how can you square support for Brexit with a desire to see a bit more backbone to European collective defence? Brexit is Putin's single biggest foreign policy win in Europe.

  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    dixiedean said:

    edb said:

    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.

    Offer the locals a million bucks each to become the 51st State. It would be a mere $56 billion. Bugger all for that much real estate.

    Then see how they vote.....
    Indeed. Trump just lost the Senate in a flash.
    Greenland would probably be a US Territory like Puerto Rico so no eligibility for the Senate (or the House)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    dixiedean said:

    edb said:

    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.

    Offer the locals a million bucks each to become the 51st State. It would be a mere $56 billion. Bugger all for that much real estate.

    Then see how they vote.....
    Indeed. Trump just lost the Senate in a flash.
    Greenland would probably be a US Territory like Puerto Rico so no eligibility for the Senate (or the House)
    So, a bit like the relationship between Northern Ireland and the EU under the backstop :smile:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    LONDON (Reuters) - Britain and South Korea will sign a continuity Free Trade Agreement on Thursday to allow businesses to keep trading freely after Brexit at the end of October, the British government said.

    Britain has been seeking to replicate EU-trade agreements with third countries ahead of its planned departure from the bloc but many had stalled over the uncertainty about if and when Brexit would happen after it was delayed earlier this year.


    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-trade-korea/uk-and-south-korea-to-sign-post-brexit-continuity-trade-deal-idUKKCN1VB2I9
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Charles said:


    The fact that the lease existed in the first place establishes the principle that financial transactions for territory might be appropriate in some circumstances

    I’ve not been the Greenland but I suspect if you offered the inhabitants the chance to become US citizens they would go for it

    If you were running the No campaign for a US takeover of Greenland you'd simply send a copy of a US tax form to every household and explain that they'd have to file it forever even if they left the US / Greenland.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2019
    If Trump can portray Antifa and similar organisations as the biggest threat to the USA, he wins the next election. At the moment, they're making it very easy for him. Most Americans must be wondering: why don't the Portland police do anything about their violent protests.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    AndyJS said:

    If Trump can portray Antifa and similar organisations as the biggest threat to the USA, he wins the next election. At the moment, they're making it very easy for him. Most Americans must be wondering: why don't the Portland police do anything about their violent protests.

    I saw a clever "Fake News" description of AntiFA as "Anti First Amendment"
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Come to think of it, it's a bit puzzling that Trump doesn't put more indirect pressure on the police in Portland to do something about Antifa's violent antics. Maybe he's being very Machiavellian and deliberately not doing so, in the knowledge that their behaviour only adds to his support in the run up to next year's election.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Ooops! "30 Days" is all over the front pages.....

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1164246937543028737?s=20
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edb said:

    Probably an unpopular point, but why _shouldnt_ countries buy and sell territory? Especially underpopulated territory.
    If i lived in greenland i might feel flattered by the attention.

    The US bought Alaska from Russia IIRC, in about 1900.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited August 2019
    So the outlook seems to be:

    * September 3 to September 12: Rebels try to get control of the agenda to pass legislation to constrain Boris
    * Rest of September: Party conferences, nothing happens
    * Late September: It become clear Boris does / doesn't have anything to propose to the EU side
    * Early Oct: If still headed for No Deal, frantic GoNAfaE things
    * Deadline: Oct 17/18 Council of Ministers meeting
    * Up until end Oct: In theory you could call the Council of Ministers together for an emergency meeting but it may be too late
This discussion has been closed.