Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
You really should not rely too heavily on the accuracy of BBC coverage. She did not state that an alternative could indeed be found within 30 days, she merely said there were 30 days left to attempt to deliver what could not be achieved over the last couple of years. There's a difference.
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.
Whatever plan it is, regardless of viability, will be rejected.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I assume you are just posting the tweet without actually knowing how any of this works. Or do you? Do you export? Can you tell me what I do if I'm taking stuff over the border that I then bring back for instance, something I used to do and I can think of many major commercial organisations that have to do that on a grand scale. Just because someone drops words like trusted trader, mobile checks doesn't mean it will work. Nobody has actually come up with an alternative. At least nobody who actually does it for real and is not a politician who crosses his/her fingers.
Just use one of the back roads round Aughnacloy or Clones same as everyone else.
Not sure the Rolling Stones tour buses and lorries will manage that
youre bribing the wrong people :-)
It is a good job they don't have a Grand Prix in Ireland. The carnets for that must be interesting, particularly for stuff they bring in which is needed yesterday. Still I guess they are geared up for it, for all the non EU countries visited..
Just say youre moving smokes for the RA
nobody will bother you
Ireland sounds like fun!
Pre CU/Single Market I spent hours on several occasions arguing at customs over a carnet and that was just me in a car. I dread what is going to happen when that all come back. God knows what happens when trailers full of a rock group stuff or F1 trailers comes back. I was arguing over trivia. Some of the questions were impossible to answer. I did sus out at one point that they didn't actually necessarily want the correct answer, just an answer. Weight of stuff was a good one. Shrug of shoulders was no good, but a completely made up number did the trick.
well look on the bright side
youre moving the Stones, you could have that sanctimonious prick Bono droning on in the back about morality in between calls to his tax accountant. :-)
I should make clear this was between UK and France. I suspect the Irish border might be different in equally funny ways (although it was never fun at the time).
Sadly I never moved anything like s rock group or cars; just computers and demo stuff.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
I wrote something about this on the previous thread: actually, the place you don't want to use double-decker trains is on commuter lines with many stops, as they take so long to load and unload passengers from them that it delays other services, reducing the available paths. Longer trains are much better.
I saw your post. I'm not altogether sure I agree, but in any case the point is moot. (Snip)
Think what happens when a train stops: the doors open, a number of people get off, some get on, and then the doors close and the train sets off. In the case of Thameslink, dwell time was meant to be about a minute to do all of that (*) - at quiet stations it can be only thirty seconds.
Everyone who wants to get off is probably not standing ready by a door when the train stops, so passengers need to collect their bags, squeeze down the aisle and then to the door. Likewise, passengers getting on might no be adjacent to a door, and therefore need to get their belongings along the platform to the door. This all takes precious seconds.
Now think about a double-decker. A passenger on the top deck needs to get from his seat in the middle of the train to the nearest stairwell (and the top deck probably has a lower ceiling as well), descend the stairs, merge with passengers getting off from the lower deck, and then get out onto the platform. That's on top of the fact that a carriage with more passenger capacity will naturally take longer to empty and fill.
(*) AIUI this was one of the sources of Thameslink's timetabling woes last year: the timetables dwell time was too short. As passengers could not get on and off within the scheduled dwell time, the train was delayed, and all the following trains were as well.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
a country which cant defend itself is relying on everyone else being decent human beings. history tends to show thats a rash assumption
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
The backstop only kicks in if alternative arrangements do not work, hence the alternative arrangements fit into the PD rather than the WA.
Indeed it is fundamental to the backstop that alternative arrangements exist, though realistically these consist of permenant CU and SM alignment.
They consist of making NI a special case within both the UK and the EU, which indeed what the WA was originally driving at.
That might constrain the UK in some areas, and the EU in others. For the rest they may reasonably reinterpret or diverge.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
The most interesting thing about today is how easily Merkel played Johnson. You could almost see her stifling a yawn. I suspect the Macron meeting may be more fun. There are as many votes in France for f...big the English over as there are in England for doing the same to France. And Macron knows he holds the aces.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.
True, he has no intention imo of even trying to come up with a plan. All his efforts will be no deal and winning a GE. Which will not be difficult against Corbyn.
I expect Boris will cancel HS2 for the simple reason it’ll be popular with his base and will aid in BXP defections.
A small village near where I live has already been evacuated to make way for HS2.
I really do not see how phase one can be stopped now. Given that building has already begun, notably in he most expensive bits in London and central Birmingham, it would almost certainly cost as much to cancel as to proceed.
I wonder if Angela’s remarks today have given Boris the cover he needed to extend A50 again. The spin writes itself: ‘The EU was adamant that the WA was not up for renegotiation, but with our steadfastness and determination we’ve seen them wobble on that. Imagine what I could get with another nine months!’ Nigel will froth but who else?
I assume you are just posting the tweet without actually knowing how any of this works. Or do you? Do you export? Can you tell me what I do if I'm taking stuff over the border that I then bring back for instance, something I used to do and I can think of many major commercial organisations that have to do that on a grand scale. Just because someone drops words like trusted trader, mobile checks doesn't mean it will work. Nobody has actually come up with an alternative. At least nobody who actually does it for real and is not a politician who crosses his/her fingers.
Just use one of the back roads round Aughnacloy or Clones same as everyone else.
Not sure the Rolling Stones tour buses and lorries will manage that
youre bribing the wrong people :-)
It is a good job they don't have a Grand Prix in Ireland. The carnets for that must be interesting, particularly for stuff they bring in which is needed yesterday. Still I guess they are geared up for it, for all the non EU countries visited..
Family members are, or have been involved with this. It required a great deal of preparation and planning for eventualities. I understand that there is some consideration being given to shifting part at any rate of the F1 operation, especially where 'things' are involved, to France.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
a country which cant defend itself is relying on everyone else being decent human beings. history tends to show thats a rash assumption
Ditto with a No Deal Brexit that leaves the UK entirely dependent on the goodwill of others.
I wonder if Angela’s remarks today have given Boris the cover he needed to extend A50 again. The spin writes itself: ‘The EU was adamant that the WA was not up for renegotiation, but with our steadfastness and determination we’ve seen them wobble on that. Imagine what I could get with another nine months!’ Nigel will froth but who else?
Nigel Farage will froth whatever happens, because that's the sort of person he is. He's a slightly more articulate version of Corbyn, always looking for something to blow his top,over even if he doesn't have the least understanding of what to do about it.
The reason Johnson will not extend is because his own supporters would round on him.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
The most interesting thing about today is how easily Merkel played Johnson. You could almost see her stifling a yawn. I suspect the Macron meeting may be more fun. There are as many votes in France for f...big the English over as there are in England for doing the same to France. And Macron knows he holds the aces.
There are proportionally at least as many votes in Ireland for f*ck the English as there are in France, whatever the cost.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.
nonsense
since were the only ones with a functioning army its time to invade Germany and annex Mercedes.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
84% of Tory voters and 88% of Brexit Party voters support Boris Johnson's Brexit approach but only 10% of LD voters and 43% of Labour voters support Corbyn's Brexit approach in another blow for the Labour leader and boost for the PM
So says the man who thinks living in a shipping container means your not homeless whilst supporting disaster capitalists and off shore tax avoiders in their attempt to destroy the UK
So says the facts which a leftwinger like you cannot refute so has to change the subject and yes living in a converted shipping container provides you with a roof over your head and bed and 4 walls so you are not homeless and sleeping on the streets and as I have repeatedly said it was the working class and lower middle class who voted Leave, most upper middle class voters voted Remain
What about the EU financial transparency regulations which come in to force in 2020? Are you lobbying your contacts to adopt them regardless of wether we leave the EU?
I believe George Osborne and the U.K. was instrumental in getting those approved
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.
Why?
I presume you realise that’d lead to us becoming less safe and geostrategic bullying from other major powers, leading to greater regional instability, trade disruption and fewer rights and freedoms for us?
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.
nonsense
since were the only ones with a functioning army its time to invade Germany and annex Mercedes.
Judging by the quality of posts on military matters, several posters appear to have been on a Benzer.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
For all the optimism about Merkel's comments, it's no real change in direction from the EU. The onus has always been on Britain to come up with ideas and solutions to issues such as the backstop. We've wibbled around, come up with nothing and tried to change the subject.
It's possible Johnson, Cummings et al will come up with some ideas but also highly probable Merkel and the EU will reject them. Politically, an EU rejection will be helpful for the Conservatives as it will allow them to blame the EU for everything (but they were going to do that anyway).
However, the key point remains as it has ever since March 2017 - the onus is on Britain to come up with solutions which is fine - after all, we are the ones who want to leave, we are the ones who should come up with practical proposals and sensible solutions to the issues of disengaging or de-coupling the economic and political relationship between the UK and the EU and not just solutions which work for us but for the EU as well and fit with existing international treaties such as the GFA.
There's also no point raising solutions which may be technologically possible in 10 years - the EU, not surprisingly, want solutions which will be viable as soon as A50 ends and the UK formally leaves.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
The most interesting thing about today is how easily Merkel played Johnson. You could almost see her stifling a yawn. I suspect the Macron meeting may be more fun. There are as many votes in France for f...big the English over as there are in England for doing the same to France. And Macron knows he holds the aces.
It’s a bit love/hate with some banterous nationalistic posturing, isn’t it?
France and the UK have done major bilateral deals on defence and migration in recent years.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
well you would say that
but it makes much more sense to abolish the doctors pension scheme, put the money in to our forces and tell the BMA since their members have no retirement fund theyd better start working for some pension credits,
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.
I wonder if Angela’s remarks today have given Boris the cover he needed to extend A50 again. The spin writes itself: ‘The EU was adamant that the WA was not up for renegotiation, but with our steadfastness and determination we’ve seen them wobble on that. Imagine what I could get with another nine months!’ Nigel will froth but who else?
More likely gives him cover to say “ I tried, I was reasonable, I made workable proposals, they threw them back in our face “. The average voter is long past comatose what the details are that may or may not be proposed or their feasibility. It will look like he tried, the EU rejected.
Meanwhile time goes by towards 31st October, and I just struggle to see him extending.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
a country which cant defend itself is relying on everyone else being decent human beings. history tends to show thats a rash assumption
Ditto with a No Deal Brexit that leaves the UK entirely dependent on the goodwill of others.
that only works if we dont have an economy, most our our economy isnt trade driven.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
Careful, your trollery is showing.
Not trolling at all. Enough Europeans have died in pointless wars that only damaged the continent, the current low expenditure on the military reflects the low level of military risk that we face. It is a good thing.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.
I didn't say that we didn't need to spend anything, just that there needed to be some serious thought on what we spend our defence money on.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
Certainly a failure of UK policy post 1975. The issue is was the failure an inability to help mould a Europe which all could live with or was the failure trying to lance a boil which happened to be an artery. probably a bit of both
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
Careful, your trollery is showing.
Not trolling at all. Enough Europeans have died in pointless wars that only damaged the continent, the current low expenditure on the military reflects the low level of military risk that we face. It is a good thing.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is still, nonetheless, stupid and myopic. She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
This is ridiculously corisis etc.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.
I didn't say that we didn't need to spend anything, just that there needed to be some serious thought on what we spend our defence money on.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?
well if someone suggested a war against Trump Im sure we could boost spending dramatically
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?
I have no idea what a '300m grouping is'.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
That statement rests too much on your own assumptions about how things will play out from here. For one thing, the UK hasn't left yet.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
There's still fighting in the Donbass.
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
Careful, your trollery is showing.
Not trolling at all. Enough Europeans have died in pointless wars that only damaged the continent, the current low expenditure on the military reflects the low level of military risk that we face. It is a good thing.
Major cutbacks to our military in the period 1920-22 were based on this same premise, that Europe was so sick of war and carnage it would never let it recur.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.
No Merkel just plain fucked up. She has no feeling for sentiment outside Germany
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
So which policy failure do you see as greater ?
In the last 30 years: the failure to play a more stabilising role in the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the disaster in the Ukraine.
I would assume the 3.42% share of GDP spent on defence by the US covers much more than the NATO commitment and especially activities in the north west Pacific.
To be fair, seven NATO countries have reached 2% spend while others are close by and I'm not sure I'm too concerned about Luxembourg's 0.65%. given the size of their GDP. Increasing that to 2% might buy a few more bullets but that's all.
OTOH, there's a symbolism here as well and Trump has a point about some NATO countries traditionally not paying their way. I suppose the corollary is in a conventional war (pre 1989) it was West German, Dutch and Belgian territory which was going to be ravaged rather than American or British.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
Certainly a failure of UK policy post 1975. The issue is was the failure an inability to help mould a Europe which all could live with or was the failure trying to lance a boil which happened to be an artery. probably a bit of both
The problem was that the system wasn't designed, it was achieved though many compromises designed to keep major countries on side. the CAP and CFP long outlived their usefulness by the 1980s but because of vested interests they were not properly reformed. It's happened time and again.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
That statement rests too much on your own assumptions about how things will play out from here. For one thing, the UK hasn't left yet.
its a blog Billy Boy, the point is people express their views, I realise that might come as a shock when they dont agree with you.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?
I have no idea what a '300m grouping is'.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
Soldiers are trained to fight and kill people. The rest is a freebie. You can buy a Chinook for your local police force or fire brigade if the will is there.
I assume you are just posting the tweet without actually knowing how any of this works. Or do you? Do you export? Can you tell me what I do if I'm taking stuff over the border that I then bring back for instance, something I used to do and I can think of many major commercial organisations that have to do that on a grand scale. Just because someone drops words like trusted trader, mobile checks doesn't mean it will work. Nobody has actually come up with an alternative. At least nobody who actually does it for real and is not a politician who crosses his/her fingers.
Just use one of the back roads round Aughnacloy or Clones same as everyone else.
Not sure the Rolling Stones tour buses and lorries will manage that
youre bribing the wrong people :-)
It is a good job they don't have a Grand Prix in Ireland. The carnets for that must be interesting, particularly for stuff they bring in which is needed yesterday. Still I guess they are geared up for it, for all the non EU countries visited..
Family members are, or have been involved with this. It required a great deal of preparation and planning for eventualities. I understand that there is some consideration being given to shifting part at any rate of the F1 operation, especially where 'things' are involved, to France.
Interesting, but they still must have the issue for non EU countries anyway.
For me this is the one of the biggest issues. As I have mentioned here before I was involved (ran) a pre sales bid in Cyprus where we had a head to head competition for a contract. The bid alone was a 3 month build resulting in a 3 week demo. We needed a specific bit of equipment flown in and it got held up in customs. I know, because I was calling customs everyday, that our competitor had the same issue. This was pre Cyprus being in the EU and the current set up. The build was a nightmare and a key part was completed only hours before the deadline.
If we had the same issue and we were UK based and outside of the EU and our competitor in the EU we would have lost the bid because of the delay. Both bidders were very large US multi-nationals with European HO in the UK. The choice would be move to the EU or lose multi million pound contracts.
If your still on HYUFD how would you solve that issue?
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Anecdote: I had dinner with a very smart French civil servant in Lyon, about two months before the vote. He was fascinated by Brexit and also alarmed, and asked me lots of questions. His main question was: Do you think you will vote Leave.
I said it was most unlikely.
He shook his head, looked very sad and soulful, and said “I think you will vote Leave, and it will be a disaster for all of us”. He implied that both sides had fucked up the *renegotiation*.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.
Russia and China are spending considerarbly more in real terms because their economies have been growing very nicely in recent decades. The GDP comparison is deeply misleading, you should look at what they've got and what they are building.
Have you been consistent on the idea that Turkey could/should join the EU?
Personally I like the EU when its a sweeping tide of non-belligerence, but I don't like it when its a sweeping tide of bureaucratic socialism. Thus I like the idea of Turkey joining a community of friends, but I hate the idea of top-down smothering 'democratic' layers. The outward personality of the EU is bright and Belgian Cheeky Chocolate, the innards are dark and Luxembourg on a bad night. Turkey adds to both extremes should they join.
I've equivocated on the issue, I think it's reasonable that Boris has, and I'm fairly sure you're likely to have too.
I would assume the 3.42% share of GDP spent on defence by the US covers much more than the NATO commitment and especially activities in the north west Pacific.
To be fair, seven NATO countries have reached 2% spend while others are close by and I'm not sure I'm too concerned about Luxembourg's 0.65%. given the size of their GDP. Increasing that to 2% might buy a few more bullets but that's all.
OTOH, there's a symbolism here as well and Trump has a point about some NATO countries traditionally not paying their way. I suppose the corollary is in a conventional war (pre 1989) it was West German, Dutch and Belgian territory which was going to be ravaged rather than American or British.
Indeed and, without NATO, the Soviet Union would have likely brought Western Germany into its orbit, Benelux and Italy too.
She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
Surprisingly you misunderstand the political dynamics. Nothing would have been enough, because it would have been taken as proof that threatening to leave wins you concessions because they really do 'need us more than we need them'. Brexiteers would have said, "If they gave us x just because of the prospect of a vote, just think what they'd offer if we actually voted to leave." In many ways this logic of showing them we're serious is what still drives Boris Johnson's negotiating tactics.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?
I have no idea what a '300m grouping is'.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.
which country is the Crimea in ?
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.
I didn't say that we didn't need to spend anything, just that there needed to be some serious thought on what we spend our defence money on.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?
Britain in particular depends upon open markets, global stability and secure sea lanes.
Our prosperity and security can’t be delivered just at the border. We have to engage. We have to ally. We have to influence. We can’t just hole up behind the cliffs of Dover with a militia and bugger everyone else.
That’s just as ignorant as the most extreme of Brexiteer positions, but on defence it can be espiused by the Left.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is still, nonetheless, stupid and myopic. She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
When FoM for Eastern European accession states came into force a number of Western European states implemented "immigration brakes", the UK refused to do so. Whining about too much immigration only a few years later, and demanding impingements of the fundamental right of FoM then was simply untenable.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
So which policy failure do you see as greater ?
In the last 30 years: the failure to play a more stabilising role in the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the disaster in the Ukraine.
fair points
but as has been pointed out Germany has no intention or capability to police Europe. It freeloads off the US and needs the apperance of the EU to leverage its position. It has now avoidably put itself in the position where iit will have to make major revisions to its position. Yugoslavia and Ukraine were acts forced on Germany by others, Brexit is entirely self inflicted.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.
Absolutely right and precise.
And on that positive note, goodnight all from sultry Roumeli
In other news: at the age of 55 I have decided there is no greater pleasure than reading a good book and drinking a cold beer as the sun sets behind the Isle of Purbeck and a cool sea breeze blows across me. It is what heaven feels like, I am sure.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.
Agreed. Dodging a referendum on Lisbon was a colossal screw up.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.
Absolutely right and precise.
And on that positive note, goodnight all from sultry Roumeli
I just did the train from Larbert to Dundee via Perth
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.
What was the fig leaf?
The benefits thing.
That wasn’t a leaf it was about two cells of chlorophyll! Oh how we all laughed in despair....
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
Quite.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.
Agreed. Dodging a referendum on Lisbon was a colossal screw up.
as was rebadging the failed EU constitution and trying again
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government. What is needed now are answers to questions. Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court. That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown oided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is stn would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
When FoM for Eastern European accession states came into force a number of Western European states implemented "immigration brakes", the UK refused to do so. Whining about too much immigration only a few years later, and demanding impingements of the fundamental right of FoM then was simply untenable.
Whereas inviting most of the Middle East to Europe with no consultation with anyone else, then whining like fuck when they turn up and trying to dump a problem you created on your neighbours is just fine ?
Indeed and, without NATO, the Soviet Union would have likely brought Western Germany into its orbit, Benelux and Italy too.
Everyone knew what nuclear escalation would mean for civilisation and everyone liked their lifestyles too much to want Europe as an irradiated hellhole let alone spreading the megatons of death worldwide.
If you enjoy the finer things of life (as many Communist leaders and apparatchiks did) the notion of losing them was far too unpalatable to risk. I'm sure the same is true for the clique in Pyongyang too.
When the issue is religion, as in the Indian Sub Continent, such notions may not apply and I still worry the next Kashmir incident might escalate into a real shooting war.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.
Russia and China are spending considerarbly more in real terms because their economies have been growing very nicely in recent decades. The GDP comparison is deeply misleading, you should look at what they've got and what they are building.
Sure, some parts of the world are not at the stage of social development as Europe, so may well feel a degree of military threat. In practice these tend to be autocratic countries, and the army is mostly a menace to their own people, as we see at the moment in Shenzen and the implicit threats to Hong Kong. Across most of the world this is true, As democracy has spread through Africa and Latin America, military expenditure has dropped there too.
A lot of Western countries, notably the USA and UK, have traditionally been suspicious of large standing armies as instruments of tyranny. We had a substantial navy that helped us avoid that European disease of militarism.
Comments
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
In the short term it will also allow a bit more to be sprayed around on other politically more rewarding initiatives.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I should make clear this was between UK and France. I suspect the Irish border might be different in equally funny ways (although it was never fun at the time).
Sadly I never moved anything like s rock group or cars; just computers and demo stuff.
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
Everyone who wants to get off is probably not standing ready by a door when the train stops, so passengers need to collect their bags, squeeze down the aisle and then to the door. Likewise, passengers getting on might no be adjacent to a door, and therefore need to get their belongings along the platform to the door. This all takes precious seconds.
Now think about a double-decker. A passenger on the top deck needs to get from his seat in the middle of the train to the nearest stairwell (and the top deck probably has a lower ceiling as well), descend the stairs, merge with passengers getting off from the lower deck, and then get out onto the platform. That's on top of the fact that a carriage with more passenger capacity will naturally take longer to empty and fill.
(*) AIUI this was one of the sources of Thameslink's timetabling woes last year: the timetables dwell time was too short. As passengers could not get on and off within the scheduled dwell time, the train was delayed, and all the following trains were as well.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
That might constrain the UK in some areas, and the EU in others. For the rest they may reasonably reinterpret or diverge.
All his efforts will be no deal and winning a GE.
Which will not be difficult against Corbyn.
The reason Johnson will not extend is because his own supporters would round on him.
since were the only ones with a functioning army its time to invade Germany and annex Mercedes.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
I presume you realise that’d lead to us becoming less safe and geostrategic bullying from other major powers, leading to greater regional instability, trade disruption and fewer rights and freedoms for us?
For all the optimism about Merkel's comments, it's no real change in direction from the EU. The onus has always been on Britain to come up with ideas and solutions to issues such as the backstop. We've wibbled around, come up with nothing and tried to change the subject.
It's possible Johnson, Cummings et al will come up with some ideas but also highly probable Merkel and the EU will reject them. Politically, an EU rejection will be helpful for the Conservatives as it will allow them to blame the EU for everything (but they were going to do that anyway).
However, the key point remains as it has ever since March 2017 - the onus is on Britain to come up with solutions which is fine - after all, we are the ones who want to leave, we are the ones who should come up with practical proposals and sensible solutions to the issues of disengaging or de-coupling the economic and political relationship between the UK and the EU and not just solutions which work for us but for the EU as well and fit with existing international treaties such as the GFA.
There's also no point raising solutions which may be technologically possible in 10 years - the EU, not surprisingly, want solutions which will be viable as soon as A50 ends and the UK formally leaves.
That he is a confirmed teetotaller is one of the more bizarre truths of the modern world.
France and the UK have done major bilateral deals on defence and migration in recent years.
but it makes much more sense to abolish the doctors pension scheme, put the money in to our forces and tell the BMA since their members have no retirement fund theyd better start working for some pension credits,
two problems solved at once.
(net well)
North of England -62
Scotland -59
London -56
Midlands and Wales -51
Rest of Southern England -47
GB -53
(page 4)
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/g82fatejnj/TheTimes_190814_VI_Trackers_w.pdf
Meanwhile time goes by towards 31st October, and I just struggle to see him extending.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?
So her position is understandable. It was and is still, nonetheless, stupid and myopic. She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
https://www.themilitarytimes.co.uk/news/army-come-to-the-aid-of-whaley-bridge/
Here is another example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10189872
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
Remind me how that worked out?
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
To be fair, seven NATO countries have reached 2% spend while others are close by and I'm not sure I'm too concerned about Luxembourg's 0.65%. given the size of their GDP. Increasing that to 2% might buy a few more bullets but that's all.
OTOH, there's a symbolism here as well and Trump has a point about some NATO countries traditionally not paying their way. I suppose the corollary is in a conventional war (pre 1989) it was West German, Dutch and Belgian territory which was going to be ravaged rather than American or British.
For me this is the one of the biggest issues. As I have mentioned here before I was involved (ran) a pre sales bid in Cyprus where we had a head to head competition for a contract. The bid alone was a 3 month build resulting in a 3 week demo. We needed a specific bit of equipment flown in and it got held up in customs. I know, because I was calling customs everyday, that our competitor had the same issue. This was pre Cyprus being in the EU and the current set up. The build was a nightmare and a key part was completed only hours before the deadline.
If we had the same issue and we were UK based and outside of the EU and our competitor in the EU we would have lost the bid because of the delay. Both bidders were very large US multi-nationals with European HO in the UK. The choice would be move to the EU or lose multi million pound contracts.
If your still on HYUFD how would you solve that issue?
I said it was most unlikely.
He shook his head, looked very sad and soulful, and said “I think you will vote Leave, and it will be a disaster for all of us”. He implied that both sides had fucked up the *renegotiation*.
A poignant moment, in retrospect.
Have you been consistent on the idea that Turkey could/should join the EU?
Personally I like the EU when its a sweeping tide of non-belligerence, but I don't like it when its a sweeping tide of bureaucratic socialism. Thus I like the idea of Turkey joining a community of friends, but I hate the idea of top-down smothering 'democratic' layers. The outward personality of the EU is bright and Belgian Cheeky Chocolate, the innards are dark and Luxembourg on a bad night. Turkey adds to both extremes should they join.
I've equivocated on the issue, I think it's reasonable that Boris has, and I'm fairly sure you're likely to have too.
Our prosperity and security can’t be delivered just at the border. We have to engage. We have to ally. We have to influence. We can’t just hole up behind the cliffs of Dover with a militia and bugger everyone else.
That’s just as ignorant as the most extreme of Brexiteer positions, but on defence it can be espiused by the Left.
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
You really shouldnce.
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is still, nonetheless, stupid and myopic. She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
When FoM for Eastern European accession states came into force a number of Western European states implemented "immigration brakes", the UK refused to do so.
Whining about too much immigration only a few years later, and demanding impingements of the fundamental right of FoM then was simply untenable.
but as has been pointed out Germany has no intention or capability to police Europe. It freeloads off the US and needs the apperance of the EU to leverage its position. It has now avoidably put itself in the position where iit will have to make major revisions to its position. Yugoslavia and Ukraine were acts forced on Germany by others, Brexit is entirely self inflicted.
And on that positive note, goodnight all from sultry Roumeli
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
You really shouldnce.
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown oided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is stn would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
When FoM for Eastern European accession states came into force a number of Western European states implemented "immigration brakes", the UK refused to do so.
Whining about too much immigration only a few years later, and demanding impingements of the fundamental right of FoM then was simply untenable.
Whereas inviting most of the Middle East to Europe with no consultation with anyone else, then whining like fuck when they turn up and trying to dump a problem you created on your neighbours is just fine ?
Genius...
If you enjoy the finer things of life (as many Communist leaders and apparatchiks did) the notion of losing them was far too unpalatable to risk. I'm sure the same is true for the clique in Pyongyang too.
When the issue is religion, as in the Indian Sub Continent, such notions may not apply and I still worry the next Kashmir incident might escalate into a real shooting war.
A lot of Western countries, notably the USA and UK, have traditionally been suspicious of large standing armies as instruments of tyranny. We had a substantial navy that helped us avoid that European disease of militarism.
100/1