In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
Ref2 will be in the Lab manifesto for a GE. There is zero doubt about that.
His policy is to get Labour into government. Brexit is a second order issue. If supporting Brexit helps Labour to get into power, he will support Brexit. If being ambiguous about it helps Labour, he'll be ambiguous.
So, if you're a Remainer who does not support the radical left, you're buying a pig in a poke by putting Corbyn into power.
Only way to Remain is via Ref2.
Only way to get Ref2 is after a GE and with a PM other than Johnson.
Only feasible PM other than Johnson after a GE is Jeremy Corbyn.
Thus the only way to Remain is with PM Corbyn.
Algebra.
Possibly.
Though the LDs are right to be wary. Corbyn is not trustworthy over Brexit, but even more important is to distance ourselves with the longest spoon possible.
So Change UK's priority is no change, but they are unwilling to make the necessary compromises to avoid change because that would mean installing as pm someone who is dangerous because he is far too in favour of changing the UK?
His policy is to get Labour into government. Brexit is a second order issue. If supporting Brexit helps Labour to get into power, he will support Brexit. If being ambiguous about it helps Labour, he'll be ambiguous.
So, if you're a Remainer who does not support the radical left, you're buying a pig in a poke by putting Corbyn into power.
Only way to Remain is via Ref2.
No.
If a government wins a majority at a GE on a Remain platform that is sufficient.
It might be wise to hold a Ref2, but it wouldn't be necessary.
If clearly written in the manifesto with our system that would suffice both legally and morally. That has to be the way to go. Stop Brexit on the 31st followed by a VONC followed by a Brexit election.
In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
Ref2 will be in the Lab manifesto for a GE. There is zero doubt about that.
Though with the option to campaign for a Labour Brexit Deal
If the Lib Dems do anything to make Corbyn PM, they can forget about my vote.
PM but for a matter of weeks and able to do only 2 things.
Agree an extension to avoid 31 Oct No Deal - and call an election.
You prefer BoJo and National Populism and Hard Brexit to that?
I don’t like any of the choices on offer.
I think it is deluded to think that a PM’s powers can be limited in the way that the “Corbyn for caretaker PM” crowd think. Once you are PM you have considerable powers and responsibilities. I don’t trust Corbyn one bit. I don’t trust Johnson either.
I see no good options. If Clarke as PM to get an Art. 50 extension while we work out what to do - deal on a different basis, GE or referendum - was an option I’d take that. Or Harman. Or Milliband.
Johnson, Cumming, Corbyn, Milne, Murray: all equally ghastly and not fit to be anywhere near power.
It is Ken Clarke who wants to do what you accuse Corbyn of. Clarke says he wants to run the government for long enough to negotiate a new deal. Corbyn says he will be in and out and in purdah anyway.
Ken Clarke clearly and obviously has no desire to be anything more than a temporary PM. That cannot be said of Jeremy Corbyn. Clarke was equally clear, when interviewed this afternoon, that while his personal preference would be at this point to leave with as soft a Brexit deal as possible, he would be at the disposal of whatever on majority wishing to prevent a No Deal Brexit might coalesce behind. I doubt that could be said of Corbyn, either.
What, you think if he's put in as a hamstrung caretaker to head off No Deal he's going to also squeeze in a quick nationalisation or two and a withdrawal from NATO?
Once you’re PM you are not hamstrung. There is a great deal of executive responsibility and powers you have.
Second, I don’t know what he would do . That’s the point. I don’t trust him, based on his record over recent decades, his behaviour over Brexit and the quite long list of lies he has said on a variety of topics (@ydoethur provided a list of some of them earlier today).
As I’ve told you before, it is Corbyn’s character and general outlook which make me consider him unfit to be PM.
Why would Jeremy Corbyn want to be a figurehead PM with no power except to ask for an extension? However if he can get the numbers from disaffected Labour MPs and Tory MPs then Swinson would no doubt join in. But we all know that he doesn't have the numbers.
What Corbyn wants is an election, I would think. And before rather than after Brexit so he can benefit from Remainer tactical voting.
TBH, I think all this 'VONC BoJo and then VOC in a GNU under Corbyn or Grandee' is, as somebody says down thread, a silly season story.
I don't see any of it transpiring. I see Johnson at the last minute bottling it and agreeing an extension for fresh talks with the EU.
No Brexit and no GE in 2019.
Whole shebang rolls into 2020.
That would be sensible. But given how firmly BJ has nailed his trousers to the October 31 mast, how does he climb down?
If the Lib Dems do anything to make Corbyn PM, they can forget about my vote.
PM but for a matter of weeks and able to do only 2 things.
Agree an extension to avoid 31 Oct No Deal - and call an election.
You prefer BoJo and National Populism and Hard Brexit to that?
I don’t like any of the choices on offer.
I think it is deluded to think that a PM’s powers can be limited in the way that the “Corbyn for caretaker PM” crowd think. Once you are PM you have considerable powers and responsibilities. I don’t trust Corbyn one bit. I don’t trust Johnson either.
I see no good options. If Clarke as PM to get an Art. 50 extension while we work out what to do - deal on a different basis, GE or referendum - was an option I’d take that. Or Harman. Or Milliband.
Johnson, Cumming, Corbyn, Milne, Murray: all equally ghastly and not fit to be anywhere near power.
Who's Murray?
Andrew Murray: close advisor to Corbyn. A member of the Communist party for 4 decades until he joined Corbyn’s team. His daughter, Laura, worked in Corbyn’s private office until she was made Head of Investigations recently.
And this is who Swinson picks over somebody whose policy is a second referendum.
In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
There aren't the votes for a second referendum without an election. So yes, his policy is to first get the numbers for a second referendum then have one.
His policy is to get Labour into government. Brexit is a second order issue. If supporting Brexit helps Labour to get into power, he will support Brexit. If being ambiguous about it helps Labour, he'll be ambiguous.
So, if you're a Remainer who does not support the radical left, you're buying a pig in a poke by putting Corbyn into power.
And apparently the only other option open to Remainers is Ken Clarke... who has committed himself to delivering Brexit. Glorious news
Very astute.
1) GNU PM going for soft Brexit gets more Tories and Labour on board.
2) Long A50 extension granted on this basis.
3) Tories implode into factions, Farage the spectre at the feast.
4) PM Clarke gets VONCed at a convenient moment.
5) General Election.
Actually if Clarke becomes PM it will only be because the majority of Labour MPs have defied Corbyn to join the LDs and SNP to vote for him.
Around 50 or so Tory MPs who are anti No Deal may vote for Clarke as PM to extend Article 50 too but the vast majority of Tory MPs and the DUP will vote against Clarke and stick with Boris as PM on a No Deal Brexit platform if required.
So it is actually Labour that would split in two, not the Tories, Boris would still have most of his party behind him unlike Corbyn and of course Farage and Swinson would be spectres at the feast
Pile of crap. I will never forgive them for introducing the smoking ban.
I didn't like it from an ideological perspective, but it has certainly improved my life. The minimum alcohol price is lunacy though, redistributing from the relatively poor to shareholders, most of whom are outside Scotland.
Once you’re PM you are not hamstrung. There is a great deal of executive responsibility and powers you have.
Second, I don’t know what he would do . That’s the point. I don’t trust him, based on his record over recent decades, his behaviour over Brexit and the quite long list of lies he has said on a variety of topics (@ydoethur provided a list of some of them earlier today).
As I’ve told you before, it is Corbyn’s character and general outlook which make me consider him unfit to be PM.
He could do very little, so that's not a rational fear, but your last para is the key one. It's the person. You simply cannot bear to think of him as PM.
And this is who Swinson picks over somebody whose policy is a second referendum.
In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
There aren't the votes for a second referendum without an election. So yes, his policy is to first get the numbers for a second referendum then have one.
I appreciate that facts are as alien and unwelcome to you as they are to HYUFD, although at least HYUFD is never personally abusive in the way you and I fear far too many Labour members are. But the fact is his policy is for him to become PM and hold a general election. So no, at this moment a second referendum is not his policy. Indeed, by delaying things he might easily make no deal more likely.
He says that if he wins this election he may hold a referendum. So at that point it may become his policy. Unfortunately, given he is a fluent liar and a notorious twister, nobody trusts him to honour that pledge. And even if they were foolish enough to, his priorities do not match those of the Liberal Democrats and they are perfectly at liberty to say therefore they will not back him.
Fluent liar and twister...
Like someone claiming Corbyn has voted with the Tories as many times as Swinson?
It has been pointed out to you before that Corbyn rebelling against Labour isn't voting with the Tories, those are two seperate things. Voting against the Iraq war was against the Labour and Tory whip for example. Corbyn has very rarely voted with the Tories. Swinson has done so a lot of times.
Simple logic would tell you that Corbyn could not really not hold a referendum after winning an election in which he pledged to hold one. He needs MPs to pass a Brexit deal, all the Labour MPs who have been voting for an asking for a referendum aren't going to turn around and vote through a Brexit deal without one...
Unless in this conspiracy all the other Labour MPs are secret Brexiteers like Corbyn who have only voted for a 2nd referendum and made it policy to trick people.....
Once you’re PM you are not hamstrung. There is a great deal of executive responsibility and powers you have.
Second, I don’t know what he would do . That’s the point. I don’t trust him, based on his record over recent decades, his behaviour over Brexit and the quite long list of lies he has said on a variety of topics (@ydoethur provided a list of some of them earlier today).
As I’ve told you before, it is Corbyn’s character and general outlook which make me consider him unfit to be PM.
He could do very little, so that's not a rational fear, but your last para is the key one. It's the person. You simply cannot bear to think of him as PM.
He is to you what Trump is to me.
They want no deal so they can blame Corbyn for no deal, if the people they claim have will suffer from no deal have to do so then so be it.
Too many will chose no deal over Corbyn, so we are heading for no deal IMO.
Pile of crap. I will never forgive them for introducing the smoking ban.
I didn't like it from an ideological perspective, but it has certainly improved my life. The minimum alcohol price is lunacy though, redistributing from the relatively poor to shareholders, most of whom are outside Scotland.
Though the LDs are right to be wary. Corbyn is not trustworthy over Brexit, but even more important is to distance ourselves with the longest spoon possible.
I think the LDs are doing the right thing from their perspective.
They have a great opportunity to replace Labour as the alternative to the Tories.
That must be a greater prize than stopping a Hard (or any) Brexit.
Once you’re PM you are not hamstrung. There is a great deal of executive responsibility and powers you have.
Second, I don’t know what he would do . That’s the point. I don’t trust him, based on his record over recent decades, his behaviour over Brexit and the quite long list of lies he has said on a variety of topics (@ydoethur provided a list of some of them earlier today).
As I’ve told you before, it is Corbyn’s character and general outlook which make me consider him unfit to be PM.
He could do very little, so that's not a rational fear, but your last para is the key one. It's the person. You simply cannot bear to think of him as PM.
He is to you what Trump is to me.
As PM he could do a great deal. You are deluding yourself thinking otherwise.
On a personal level I am sure I would find him pleasant enough. We could talk about allotments quite happily I’m sure. My son has met him and said he was very charming and polite. I certainly do not feel like that about Trump who is utterly loathsome to me on both a personal and political level.
But as a politician I find Corbyn wholly unappealing and lacking in a basic moral character, even though some of his policies and causes are ok (rural buses, for instance). In that, he is IMO surprisingly like Trump and to a certain extent Johnson.
And this is who Swinson picks over somebody whose policy is a second referendum.
In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
There aren't the votes for a second referendum without an election. So yes, his policy is to first get the numbers for a second referendum then have one.
I appreciate that facts are as alien and unwelcome to you as they are to HYUFD, although at least HYUFD is never personally abusive in the way you and I fear far too many Labour members are. But the fact is his policy is for him to become PM and hold a general election. So no, at this moment a second referendum is not his policy. Indeed, by delaying things he might easily make no deal more likely.
He says that if he wins this election he may hold a referendum. So at that point it may become his policy. Unfortunately, given he is a fluent liar and a notorious twister, nobody trusts him to honour that pledge. And even if they were foolish enough to, his priorities do not match those of the Liberal Democrats and they are perfectly at liberty to say therefore they will not back him.
Fluent liar and twister...
Like someone claiming Corbyn has voted with the Tories as many times as Swinson?
It has been pointed out to you before that Corbyn rebelling against Labour isn't voting with the Tories, those are two seperate things. Voting against the Iraq war was against the Labour and Tory whip for example. Corbyn has very rarely voted with the Tories. Swinson has done so a lot of times.
Simple logic would tell you that Corbyn could not really not hold a referendum after winning an election in which he pledged to hold one. He needs MPs to pass a Brexit deal, all the Labour MPs who have been voting for an asking for a referendum aren't going to turn around and vote through a Brexit deal without one...
Unless in this conspiracy all the other Labour MPs are secret Brexiteers like Corbyn who have only voted for a 2nd referendum and made it policy to trick people.....
As PM he could do a great deal. You are deluding yourself thinking otherwise.
On a personal level I am sure I would find him pleasant enough. We could talk about allotments quite happily I’m sure. My son has met him and said he was very charming and polite. I certainly do not feel like that about Trump who is utterly loathsome to me on both a personal and political level.
But as a politician I find Corbyn wholly unappealing and lacking in a basic moral character, even though some of his policies and causes are ok (rural buses, for instance). In that, he is IMO surprisingly like Trump and to a certain extent Johnson.
I wish all 3 would disappear into obscurity.
Please demonstrate that I am deluding myself by providing an example of something that he could do (in those circumstances) that is both terrible and in any way likely?
Though the LDs are right to be wary. Corbyn is not trustworthy over Brexit, but even more important is to distance ourselves with the longest spoon possible.
I think the LDs are doing the right thing from their perspective.
They have a great opportunity to replace Labour as the alternative to the Tories.
That must be a greater prize than stopping a Hard (or any) Brexit.
But if they remove their USP, stopping Brexit, which has a very large electoral constituency, how, exactly, do they propose to replace Labour? It can't be their range of other well-known policies.
And this is who Swinson picks over somebody whose policy is a second referendum.
In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
There aren't the votes for a second referendum without an election. So yes, his policy is to first get the numbers for a second referendum then have one.
I appreciate that facts are as alien and unwelcome to you as they are to HYUFD, although at least HYUFD is never personally abusive in the way you and I fear far too many Labour members are. But the fact is his policy is for him to become PM and hold a general election. So no, at this moment a second referendum is not his policy. Indeed, by delaying things he might easily make no deal more likely.
He says that if he wins this election he may hold a referendum. So at that point it may become his policy. Unfortunately, given he is a fluent liar and a notorious twister, nobody trusts him to honour that pledge. And even if they were foolish enough to, his priorities do not match those of the Liberal Democrats and they are perfectly at liberty to say therefore they will not back him.
Fluent liar and twister...
Like someone claiming Corbyn has voted with the Tories as many times as Swinson?
It has been pointed out to you before that Corbyn rebelling against Labour isn't voting with the Tories, those are two seperate things. Voting against the Iraq war was against the Labour and Tory whip for example. Corbyn has very rarely voted with the Tories. Swinson has done so a lot of times.
Simple logic would tell you that Corbyn could not really not hold a referendum after winning an election in which he pledged to hold one. He needs MPs to pass a Brexit deal, all the Labour MPs who have been voting for an asking for a referendum aren't going to turn around and vote through a Brexit deal without one...
Unless in this conspiracy all the other Labour MPs are secret Brexiteers like Corbyn who have only voted for a 2nd referendum and made it policy to trick people.....
It all seems a bit far fetched though.
Your first sentence is unnecessary
Big g it is what ydeothur said about Corbyn below.
A law can compel Johnson to seek an extension, but it can't make him be sincere about requesting one. He could do so in a manner that made a refusal highly likely. Or even just send the letter too late for the extension to be considered.
May respected the will of parliament. Johnson won't.
Though the LDs are right to be wary. Corbyn is not trustworthy over Brexit, but even more important is to distance ourselves with the longest spoon possible.
I think the LDs are doing the right thing from their perspective.
They have a great opportunity to replace Labour as the alternative to the Tories.
That must be a greater prize than stopping a Hard (or any) Brexit.
But if they remove their USP, stopping Brexit, which has a very large electoral constituency, how, exactly, do they propose to replace Labour? It can't be their range of other well-known policies.
They perceive there are ways to stop brexit without putting Corbyn into no 10
Indeed, any attempt to do so would devastate their chances in southern marginals
Pile of crap. I will never forgive them for introducing the smoking ban.
Bastard SLab, eh?
Think the Smoking ban was SNP but happy to be corrected. Time to shut that shitshow of a parliament down.
Your knowledge of Scotpol never ceases to amaze me.
So I don't like watch Nicola on a Thursday. If anything that makes me more a true Scot than you.
True Scot or no, I'd think if you're going to have strong opinions about stuff you should have a clue about that stuff, else folk will just think you're a diddy.
As it happens I thought at the time they could have had some form of licensing for bars that wanted to keep smoking, employ smokers as staff etc. However the unending whine from libertarian smokers has since disabused me of that notion.
The smoking ban was surprisingly uncontroversial on introduction. Almost everyone accepted it and changed their behaviour. It can be hard to predict what people push back on. I would have expected a lot more resistance against restricting where you smoke
The smoking ban was the best thing that ever happened to pubs. And I write that as someone who smoked at the time.
But if they remove their USP, stopping Brexit, which has a very large electoral constituency, how, exactly, do they propose to replace Labour? It can't be their range of other well-known policies.
And this is who Swinson picks over somebody whose policy is a second referendum.
In case you hadn't noticed, Corbyn's policy is not a second referendum. It is a general election, with the possibility of a second referendum after that.
There aren't the votes for a second referendum without an election. So yes, his policy is to first get the numbers for a second referendum then have one.
I appreciate that facts are as alien and unwelcome to you as they are to HYUFD, although at least HYUFD is never personally abusive in the way you and I fear far too many Labour members are. But the fact is his policy is for him to become PM and hold a general election. So no, at this moment a second referendum is not his policy. Indeed, by delaying things he might easily make no deal more likely.
He says that if he wins this election he may hold a referendum. So at that point it may become his policy. Unfortunately, given he is a fluent liar and a notorious twister, nobody trusts him to honour that pledge. And even if they were foolish enough to, his priorities do not match those of the Liberal Democrats and they are perfectly at liberty to say therefore they will not back him.
Fluent liar and twister...
Like someone claiming Corbyn has voted with the Tories as many times as Swinson?
It has been pointed out to you before that Corbyn rebelling against Labour isn't voting with the Tories, those are two seperate things. Voting against the Iraq war was against the Labour and Tory whip for example. Corbyn has very rarely voted with the Tories. Swinson has done so a lot of times.
Simple logic would tell you that Corbyn could not really not hold a referendum after winning an election in which he pledged to hold one. He needs MPs to pass a Brexit deal, all the Labour MPs who have been voting for an asking for a referendum aren't going to turn around and vote through a Brexit deal without one...
Unless in this conspiracy all the other Labour MPs are secret Brexiteers like Corbyn who have only voted for a 2nd referendum and made it policy to trick people.....
It all seems a bit far fetched though.
Your first sentence is unnecessary
Big g it is what ydeothur said about Corbyn below.
Thank you for pointing out my misreading of the quote
They must be desperate to see the back of us. If Trump doesn't get Greenland he can go for England. 'Theme Park in Atlantic Ocean complete with Royal family and its own quaint currency'
Though with the option to campaign for a Labour Brexit Deal
Sure. So what? That does not affect the fundamentals - which is that PM Corbyn (post a pre-Brexit GE) is the only realistic route to Remain.
No it isn't as the LDs have always committed to campaign for Remain as have the SNP and Greens and unlike Corbyn Labour, so a Corbyn Labour majority is not the best route to Remain for diehard Remainers
There are a surprising number of PB Trumptons actually – HYUFD, TGOHF, Viceroy to name just a few. All very depressing.
If the fact that a couple of posters on an anonymous website show support for Trump makes you depressed, maybe you should get some help.
HYUFD isn’t anonymous, he’s a Tory council candidate in Epping Forest. Sad.
So? My concern for you still remains. I can honestly tell you that not one view expressed by any poster on here, whether Left, Right or Centre has caused me a second's lost sleep, and believe me, I've got a lot to cause me insomnia at the minute!
They must be desperate to see the back of us. If Trump doesn't get Greenland he can go for England. 'Theme Park in Atlantic Ocean complete with Royal family and its own quaint currency'
Probably cheaper by the time Boris has finished things as well...
They must be desperate to see the back of us. If Trump doesn't get Greenland he can go for England. 'Theme Park in Atlantic Ocean complete with Royal family and its own quaint currency'
Corbyn does not. That is why he is happy with purdah. He is playing a quite different game. Corbyn wants to do nothing at all, just to be photographed in front of Number 10, in order to convince voters he is a safe option in the election he will call.
People must not worry about what Corbyn will do as temporary prime minister. They should worry about what he will do after this helps him win the election.
I can't see Harris as the VP pick to Warren; I think she'd go for a relatively young white Democrat. My money would be on Beto O'Rourke, assuming he's not dropped out to run for the Senate in Texas.
Ah yes - the man who 'stands on tables' and nearly won Texas.
In the spirit of the movie we're casting that has to be Vin Diesel.
Did he nearly win Texas because of his irresistible skills or because of demographics?
Has he shown such skills in this Whitehouse campaign?
Beto did well as "Not Ted Cruz". He seems a bit crap at being himself.
If the Lib Dems were really smart they would vote Corbyn in, wait until he had taken no deal off the table, and then vote him out again.
Then claim the credit for both avoiding no deal and getting rid of Corbyn.
Job done.
Unfortunately for them they are not in any way smart though.
If the Lib Dems do anything to make Corbyn PM, they can forget about my vote.
I have been impressed with Jo Swinson who does seem to have a good political antenna.
Supporting Corbyn would stop the Lib Dems progress in all those southern seats they hope to win and would be an enormous gift to Boris
She will lose many tactical Labour votes in those seats - and it will again much easier for Labour to respond with 'You can't trust the LibDems - they always bail the Tories out!'
I can't see Harris as the VP pick to Warren; I think she'd go for a relatively young white Democrat. My money would be on Beto O'Rourke, assuming he's not dropped out to run for the Senate in Texas.
Ah yes - the man who 'stands on tables' and nearly won Texas.
In the spirit of the movie we're casting that has to be Vin Diesel.
Did he nearly win Texas because of his irresistible skills or because of demographics?
Has he shown such skills in this Whitehouse campaign?
Beto did well as "Not Ted Cruz". He seems a bit crap at being himself.
The idea of Beto was better than the reality of Beto. But literally dozens of Presidential candidates have floundered on those rocks.
I can't see Harris as the VP pick to Warren; I think she'd go for a relatively young white Democrat. My money would be on Beto O'Rourke, assuming he's not dropped out to run for the Senate in Texas.
Ah yes - the man who 'stands on tables' and nearly won Texas.
In the spirit of the movie we're casting that has to be Vin Diesel.
Did he nearly win Texas because of his irresistible skills or because of demographics?
Has he shown such skills in this Whitehouse campaign?
Beto did well as "Not Ted Cruz". He seems a bit crap at being himself.
Mayor Pete outperformed Beto on coming from nowhere and being young and good on telly. Julian Castro is a more interesting Texan with a longer cv.
But if they remove their USP, stopping Brexit, which has a very large electoral constituency, how, exactly, do they propose to replace Labour? It can't be their range of other well-known policies.
What, speed bumps? :-)
How about....
1. Promoting a sustainable environment (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 2. Maintaining a responsible and balanced economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 3. Supporting an increase in the number of apprenticeships for the future of the economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 4. Trying to achieve a system of democracy that gives us all fair representation in Parliament, in local government and in government policies generally (as we did try in the days of the Coalition Government, but the Labour Party betrayed us) 5. Strengthening central government support for local services (which would be impossible with a wrecked economy if we carry on with Brexit)
Though with the option to campaign for a Labour Brexit Deal
Sure. So what? That does not affect the fundamentals - which is that PM Corbyn (post a pre-Brexit GE) is the only realistic route to Remain.
No it isn't as the LDs have always committed to campaign for Remain as have the SNP and Greens and unlike Corbyn Labour, so a Corbyn Labour majority is not the best route to Remain for diehard Remainers
This is very true, Mr HY. I am coming to think that you are now a reformed character. As indeed, are many former Conservative supporters, who do not like the way the hard-line Tories are taking the Conservative Party.
1. Promoting a sustainable environment (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 2. Maintaining a responsible and balanced economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 3. Supporting an increase in the number of apprenticeships for the future of the economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 4. Trying to achieve a system of democracy that gives us all fair representation in Parliament, in local government and in government policies generally (as we did try in the days of the Coalition Government, but the Labour Party betrayed us) 5. Strengthening central government support for local services (which would be impossible with a wrecked economy if we carry on with Brexit)
Is that enough for you to be getting on with?
Yes, I'm sorry, I was being flippant. The Lib Dems have a number of good policies. If I lived in a Con/LD marginal I would vote for them.
1. Promoting a sustainable environment (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 2. Maintaining a responsible and balanced economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 3. Supporting an increase in the number of apprenticeships for the future of the economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government) 4. Trying to achieve a system of democracy that gives us all fair representation in Parliament, in local government and in government policies generally (as we did try in the days of the Coalition Government, but the Labour Party betrayed us) 5. Strengthening central government support for local services (which would be impossible with a wrecked economy if we carry on with Brexit)
Is that enough for you to be getting on with?
Yes, I'm sorry, I was being flippant. The Lib Dems have a number of good policies. If I lived in a Con/LD marginal I would vote for them.
Thank you. The problem with flippancy is that it is sometimes our Tory friends being sincere......
No it isn't as the LDs have always committed to campaign for Remain as have the SNP and Greens and unlike Corbyn Labour, so a Corbyn Labour majority is not the best route to Remain for diehard Remainers
But in the real world the chance of a pre-Brexit GE leading to PM Swinson or Lucas or Blackford is hugely improbable.
It will be Corbyn or the Great Man.
And which of those do we think is more likely to deliver Ref2/Remain?
Comments
https://www.instagram.com/dexeugov/
Remember-
Stock up on canned goods.
Though the LDs are right to be wary. Corbyn is not trustworthy over Brexit, but even more important is to distance ourselves with the longest spoon possible.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/trump-fat-shames-protester-before-saying-campaign-build-on-love-a4214516.html
Clarke was equally clear, when interviewed this afternoon, that while his personal preference would be at this point to leave with as soft a Brexit deal as possible, he would be at the disposal of whatever on majority wishing to prevent a No Deal Brexit might coalesce behind. I doubt that could be said of Corbyn, either.
Second, I don’t know what he would do . That’s the point. I don’t trust him, based on his record over recent decades, his behaviour over Brexit and the quite long list of lies he has said on a variety of topics (@ydoethur provided a list of some of them earlier today).
As I’ve told you before, it is Corbyn’s character and general outlook which make me consider him unfit to be PM.
That would work. I would stop.
Around 50 or so Tory MPs who are anti No Deal may vote for Clarke as PM to extend Article 50 too but the vast majority of Tory MPs and the DUP will vote against Clarke and stick with Boris as PM on a No Deal Brexit platform if required.
So it is actually Labour that would split in two, not the Tories, Boris would still have most of his party behind him unlike Corbyn and of course Farage and Swinson would be spectres at the feast
He is to you what Trump is to me.
Like someone claiming Corbyn has voted with the Tories as many times as Swinson?
It has been pointed out to you before that Corbyn rebelling against Labour isn't voting with the Tories, those are two seperate things. Voting against the Iraq war was against the Labour and Tory whip for example. Corbyn has very rarely voted with the Tories. Swinson has done so a lot of times.
Simple logic would tell you that Corbyn could not really not hold a referendum after winning an election in which he pledged to hold one. He needs MPs to pass a Brexit deal, all the Labour MPs who have been voting for an asking for a referendum aren't going to turn around and vote through a Brexit deal without one...
Unless in this conspiracy all the other Labour MPs are secret Brexiteers like Corbyn who have only voted for a 2nd referendum and made it policy to trick people.....
It all seems a bit far fetched though.
Too many will chose no deal over Corbyn, so we are heading for no deal IMO.
They have a great opportunity to replace Labour as the alternative to the Tories.
That must be a greater prize than stopping a Hard (or any) Brexit.
On a personal level I am sure I would find him pleasant enough. We could talk about allotments quite happily I’m sure. My son has met him and said he was very charming and polite. I certainly do not feel like that about Trump who is utterly loathsome to me on both a personal and political level.
But as a politician I find Corbyn wholly unappealing and lacking in a basic moral character, even though some of his policies and causes are ok (rural buses, for instance). In that, he is IMO surprisingly like Trump and to a certain extent Johnson.
I wish all 3 would disappear into obscurity.
It can't be their range of other well-known policies.
A law can compel Johnson to seek an extension, but it can't make him be sincere about requesting one. He could do so in a manner that made a refusal highly likely. Or even just send the letter too late for the extension to be considered.
May respected the will of parliament. Johnson won't.
Indeed, any attempt to do so would devastate their chances in southern marginals
I think Jo Swinson has played this correctly
I assume J Briskin is a spoof?
My apologies to Jezziah
Just so people don’t get their hopes up.
But I will believe No Deal when it happens and not before.
I think Johnson will bottle it.
I think 'Boris' will too.
Can you imagine UK in the EU with a Brexit PM
Ken Clarke wants to run the government for a bit.
Corbyn does not. That is why he is happy with purdah. He is playing a quite different game. Corbyn wants to do nothing at all, just to be photographed in front of Number 10, in order to convince voters he is a safe option in the election he will call.
People must not worry about what Corbyn will do as temporary prime minister. They should worry about what he will do after this helps him win the election.
This thread has been prorogued
1. Promoting a sustainable environment (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government)
2. Maintaining a responsible and balanced economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government)
3. Supporting an increase in the number of apprenticeships for the future of the economy (as we did in the days of the Coalition Government)
4. Trying to achieve a system of democracy that gives us all fair representation in Parliament, in local government and in government policies generally (as we did try in the days of the Coalition Government, but the Labour Party betrayed us)
5. Strengthening central government support for local services (which would be impossible with a wrecked economy if we carry on with Brexit)
Is that enough for you to be getting on with?
It will be Corbyn or the Great Man.
And which of those do we think is more likely to deliver Ref2/Remain?