In the attempt to diss Jo's position on Corbyn, it's perhaps worth pointing out that many Labour MPs feel exactly the same as her!!!!! Obviously he's also totally unpalatable to every Tory MP.
Which is why Grieve and Letwin have today agreed to discuss it with him?
If (unlikely as it sounds) Grieve and Letwin come out in support of caretaker Corbyn Swinson is going to look extremely silly. Which is another reason she should have been more circumspect in her response.
Corbyn is walking into a trap.
In discussions a GONU is agreed but under Ken Clarke/Harriet Harman but Corbyn rejects it and takes his ball away. Who is then responsible for a no deal
I don't understand what you mean. You're describing the exact trap that Corbyn just dodged and lured Swinson into by turning the conversation into one about her being unwilling to work with him rather than him being unable to work with others.
Big mistake by Swinson and the LibDems to give a flat no to Corbyn. It is clear he could never command a majority in the House, so why not back him on the condition that if he loses he commits to backing other candidates who might command a majority?
Because it makes it harder for her to attract Tory Remainers?
That's why it has to be part of an agreed process. A step on the way to an outcome that would be acceptable to Tory Remainers, as well as to Labour MPs. Support without conditions would be disastrous, I agree.
In the attempt to diss Jo's position on Corbyn, it's perhaps worth pointing out that many Labour MPs feel exactly the same as her!!!!! Obviously he's also totally unpalatable to every Tory MP.
Which is why Grieve and Letwin have today agreed to discuss it with him?
If (unlikely as it sounds) Grieve and Letwin come out in support of caretaker Corbyn Swinson is going to look extremely silly. Which is another reason she should have been more circumspect in her response.
Corbyn is walking into a trap.
In discussions a GONU is agreed but under Ken Clarke/Harriet Harman but Corbyn rejects it and takes his ball away. Who is then responsible for a no deal
I don't understand what you mean. You're describing the exact trap that Corbyn just dodged and lured Swinson into by turning the conversation into one about her being unwilling to work with him rather than him being unable to work with others.
You dodge a trap, and you dodge a trap, and everyone dodges a trap.
All the while people are think they're doging traps or laying ones, nothing actually is happening, and Boris just chuckles to himself for another day....
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
I don't think it is a good idea for a newly-elected leader to start playing such games. She doesn't want to work with Corbyn - who would - and said so. Well done her.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
I agree with your logic. Which makes me think Swinson is either not confident in the premise that Corbyn wouldn't be able to find enough MPs for his plan, or is very bad at politics.
More generally, today's events make absolutely clear that there is no route to stopping No Deal Brexit that does not involve Jeremy Corbyn. So, if he does not believe that stopping No Deal Brexit is the overwhelming priority, No Deal Brexit will not be stopped.
Ladies and Gentlemen - prepare for a No Deal Brexit!
Big mistake by Swinson and the LibDems to give a flat no to Corbyn. It is clear he could never command a majority in the House, so why not back him on the condition that if he loses he commits to backing other candidates who might command a majority?
Because it makes it harder for her to attract Tory Remainers?
That's why it has to be part of an agreed process. A step on the way to an outcome that would be acceptable to Tory Remainers, as well as to Labour MPs. Support without conditions would be disastrous, I agree.
Corbyn as PM is not an acceptable outcome for Tory Remainers (not that I'm an expert on what they think, but that seems fairly clear). Ergo, she had to rule it out to be credible to them.
In the attempt to diss Jo's position on Corbyn, it's perhaps worth pointing out that many Labour MPs feel exactly the same as her!!!!! Obviously he's also totally unpalatable to every Tory MP.
Which is why Grieve and Letwin have today agreed to discuss it with him?
If (unlikely as it sounds) Grieve and Letwin come out in support of caretaker Corbyn Swinson is going to look extremely silly. Which is another reason she should have been more circumspect in her response.
Corbyn is walking into a trap.
In discussions a GONU is agreed but under Ken Clarke/Harriet Harman but Corbyn rejects it and takes his ball away. Who is then responsible for a no deal
I don't understand what you mean. You're describing the exact trap that Corbyn just dodged and lured Swinson into by turning the conversation into one about her being unwilling to work with him rather than him being unable to work with others.
You dodge a trap, and you dodge a trap, and everyone dodges a trap.
All the while people are think they're doging traps or laying ones, nothing actually is happening, and Boris just chuckles to himself for another day....
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
I agree with your logic. Which makes me think Swinson is either not confident in the premise that Corbyn wouldn't be able to find enough MPs for his plan, or is very bad at politics.
Swinson showed her lack of experience by replying far too quickly and possibly without any party consultation. She will have to backtrack with a little humiliation. She has little choice if she wants to stop Hard Brexit.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
I agree with your logic. Which makes me think Swinson is either not confident in the premise that Corbyn wouldn't be able to find enough MPs for his plan, or is very bad at politics.
I think that it is the latter. She has made a big nistake. It can be rectified, but I suspect she will carry on digging herself a hole. She is basically doing exactly what Corbyn wants her to do.
In the attempt to diss Jo's position on Corbyn, it's perhaps worth pointing out that many Labour MPs feel exactly the same as her!!!!! Obviously he's also totally unpalatable to every Tory MP.
Which is why Grieve and Letwin have today agreed to discuss it with him?
If (unlikely as it sounds) Grieve and Letwin come out in support of caretaker Corbyn Swinson is going to look extremely silly. Which is another reason she should have been more circumspect in her response.
Corbyn is walking into a trap.
In discussions a GONU is agreed but under Ken Clarke/Harriet Harman but Corbyn rejects it and takes his ball away. Who is then responsible for a no deal
I don't understand what you mean. You're describing the exact trap that Corbyn just dodged and lured Swinson into by turning the conversation into one about her being unwilling to work with him rather than him being unable to work with others.
After VONC in Johson, Corbyn puts himself forward in a VOC which is defeated. Corbyn can not then prevent enough Labour MPs getting behind another possibility.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
But, why does it matter?
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, then they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
More generally, today's events make absolutely clear that there is no route to stopping No Deal Brexit that does not involve Jeremy Corbyn. So, if he does not believe that stopping No Deal Brexit is the overwhelming priority, No Deal Brexit will not be stopped.
Ladies and Gentlemen - prepare for a No Deal Brexit!
Not quite.
Corbyn could still do a VoNC and Tory rebels bring their own government down. The law over the PM's power to decide the election date would also need to be changed.
More generally, today's events make absolutely clear that there is no route to stopping No Deal Brexit that does not involve Jeremy Corbyn. So, if he does not believe that stopping No Deal Brexit is the overwhelming priority, No Deal Brexit will not be stopped.
Ladies and Gentlemen - prepare for a No Deal Brexit!
Not quite.
Corbyn could still do a VoNC and Tory rebels bring their own government down. The law over the PM's power to decide the election date would also need to be changed.
If they bring the Govt. down, they are not Tory rebels, they are ex-Tory Independents.
Big mistake by Swinson and the LibDems to give a flat no to Corbyn. It is clear he could never command a majority in the House, so why not back him on the condition that if he loses he commits to backing other candidates who might command a majority?
Because it makes it harder for her to attract Tory Remainers?
Simple Arithmetic. Who has the biggest numbers ? Labour including 30 or so die hard Corbyn loyalists who would not mind seeing a Tory NO Deal Brexit. They will only back a Corbyn led GoNU. Next, SNP. They are on side. So will be PC and Lucas. The Lib Dems have to choose. Do they want to stop NDB or not ?
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
But, why does it matter?
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, them they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
Because given the causes he has backed over the last 40 years - and the policies at hiome and abroad he's espoused - I think any Tory would be genuinely concerned about making him PM for even a very short while. The PM has very wideranging powers that he/she can exercise without any reference to Parliament - especially with regards to foreign policy and national security.
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
Those saying thus will trap the lib dems, remember most people take no notice of all the political horse play.
Potential Lib/Lab switchers pay more attention than most.
Yep - this is key. They are potential switchers precisely because they are paying more attention than most.
Yep. The big question is how many of the Lab->Lib switchers tore themselves tearfully away from their party because they just couldn't tolerate that awful Mr Corbyn any more and how many switched opportunistically based on a desire to remain, without any deep loyalty to either party?
This just demonstrates that everything around Brexit is a blame game. You may not like him but at least Boris is doing something positive. Everyone else just wants to talk about what they are not prepared to do to get Brexit through.
LOL! The arsonist accusing the building of being made of wood!
What does this mean?
"Boris is at least doing something positive'.
Boris got us into this F*cking mess.
Get a grip!
So the whole of Brexit is Boris's fault?
His power is amazing
I'd put him in the top three.
Cameron, Farage and Johnson are probably the three most responsible.
Hague should also be on that list. He encouraged Euroscepticism in the Tory Party after 1997 and also encouraged Cameron to hold the referendum.
What about Murdoch or Dacre?
Or UKIP winning the 2014 EU Elections?
Boris's Telegraph stories when he was their EU correspondent for five years did much to fuel Tory Euroscepticism, especially given the paper was read by Conservative MPs and supporters. That was probably more significant even than Boris fronting Leave. This was at a time when John Major was in Number 10 hearing the sound of white coats flapping.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
You think Remain hasn't commanded the news agenda for three years?
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
You think Remain hasn't commanded the news agenda for three years?
How to avoid the problem of Labour MPs not wanting to support a Conservative PL and Cons not wanting to support a Lab PM
Get a list of 350 MPs to sign an open document stating i) the name of the PM will be drawn from the list at random from an urn. ii) they will support who ever is drawn at random. iii) as prime minister they promise to deliver a delay in Brexit and call an electon for the earliest possible date.
If you end up with Philip Hammond as caretaker PM all the Labour MPs can geniunely state that they voted for nothing other than to avoid No Deal
Would you fancy facing your voters at the ensuing GE, having signed up to that insansity?
"Yes, we decided to pick the PM at random from an urn. No, we haven't all completely lost our minds. Yes, we are fit people to govern the country still. We can totally make decisions in an adult way usually, just this one was a bit hard."
"Yes, we had to pick the PM for one day at random from an urn, otherwise Tories/Labour* would not have supported a GoNU. I am proud to have saved the country from the chaos of a No Deal. "
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
But, why does it matter?
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, them they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
Because given the causes he has backed over the last 40 years - and the policies at hiome and abroad he's espoused - I think any Tory would be genuinely concerned about making him PM for even a very short while. The PM has very wideranging powers that he/she can exercise without any reference to Parliament - especially with regards to foreign policy and national security.
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
Day 1, Corbyn orders the nuclear subs home.
Day 2, Corbyn orders the destruction of our nuclear warheads.
There's gonna be some pig-sick MPs within the week.....
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
You think Remain hasn't commanded the news agenda for three years?
At times. But mostly not.
Have you seen SKY for the past three years? Or Channel 4? Show me a day that wasn't pro-Remain.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
But, why does it matter?
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, them they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
Because given the causes he has backed over the last 40 years - and the policies at hiome and abroad he's espoused - I think any Tory would be genuinely concerned about making him PM for even a very short while. The PM has very wideranging powers that he/she can exercise without any reference to Parliament - especially with regards to foreign policy and national security.
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
Day 1, Corbyn orders the nuclear subs home.
Day 2, Corbyn orders the destruction of our nuclear warheads.
There's gonna be some pig-sick MPs within the week.....
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
But, why does it matter?
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, them they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
Because given the causes he has backed over the last 40 years - and the policies at hiome and abroad he's espoused - I think any Tory would be genuinely concerned about making him PM for even a very short while. The PM has very wideranging powers that he/she can exercise without any reference to Parliament - especially with regards to foreign policy and national security.
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
You think Remain hasn't commanded the news agenda for three years?
At times. But mostly not.
Have you seen SKY for the past three years? Or Channel 4? Show me a day that wasn't pro-Remain.
The facts of life are pro-Remain, if that’s what you mean.
But the news agenda, by and large, as been how, why and when we are going to Brexit, and the various consequences of doing so.
Optimistically, I think it's positive that the opposition parties are at least talking to each other about VoNC and plans for a new GE. That's the way out of this mess.
For my part, I would be perfectly happy for a caretaker govt led by anyone trustworthy to extend a50 and call a new GE. Provided it lasts a matter of weeks only, seems fine to me.
Corbyn should start thinking about who he trusts to do this. If the stop No Deal gang manage to mess this up, there will be a lot of enraged voters out there.
Please explain how it is a way out of this mess?
Easy. The current parliament cannot decide. The next one should be able to, either by coalescing behind ref 2 (Lab, LD, SNP) or leave with No Deal (Tory/Brexit). One of those blocs should win and will work together to secure their preferred outcome.
The problem is that 'leave with No Deal' is not the Tory policy. Johnson is bluffing and everyone* knows it.
(*) Not everyone.
Doesn't matter if he's bluffing, the EU will call his bluff, and we will leave with No Deal. That will resolve the current impasse pretty dramatically.
The Lib Dems deserve credit for not supporting a wretched far left fool as PM.
Better Clarke or Harman, as they suggest, if one wanted to steer away from departing with no deal.
Backing things you don't want as part of a cunning plan is how foolish MPs got themselves into this mess. Trusting the far left with power is damned stupid.
IMO Mike is fundamentally wrong - I live in the sort of seat where the LibDems really need Labour tactical votes and could well win. Up to recently I've known half a dozen Labour voters (two of them members) who were quietly going to do it. None of them are Corbyn fans. They are all alienated by Swinson's tactics, which seem to them to be putting party realignment (which they are at best ambiguous about) before stopping No Deal Brexit (which they are passionate about). She needs to at least seem to be open to a deal with all the Stop No Deal MPs, and when she rejects up to 200 of them out of hand, she is throwing away tactical "Bollocks to Brexit" votes in any election by the bucketload.
It's yet another game of who blinks. Things might look very different as deadline day approaches.
The other side of the coin is that - if Labour is determined to stop no deal and if they accept thee charge) as PM. The Tories supporting such an arrangement are making the biggest sacrifice, and the Tories achieved the biggest minority vote in the last GE, so some elder Tory who is leaving politics would be a reasonable choice.
As you say, it shouldn't really matter who it is. It's all very well saying the Tories are making the biggest sacrifice, but those Tory MPs and the minor parties have been loudly telling us for months that No Deal will be catastrophic and must be averted. If they really want to stop it, they can. But they are going to need the support of Labour MPs who may be more ambivalent. That's the advantage of Corbyn.
But they need to coalesce behind someone. Anyone. Sylvia Hermon?
I had Lady Sylvia Hermon added to the Betfair market for exactly this reason. Sadly no one has laid her at 1000 for me yet.
A more serious proposition is Ian Blackford.
Why? No-one likes or trusts the SNP and he’d be under enormous pressure to introduce a new independence bill as a quid pro quo.
Plenty do in Scotland, it is the cheats and liars we dislike up here, in order of hate , Tories, Lib Dems , labour.
I think Malc is conflating Glasgow with the rest of Scotland. The order would be different in the Highlands, NE, Borders etc. In some parts if you hear a reference to "that bloody woman" it isn't Maggie they are referring to. There's a lot of variety in the northern kingdom and a one-size-fits-all approach (ie, we all hate the tories) will no longer do. Just ask Eck and Angus.
Only 2 cities in Scotland voted for Indy - Glasgow and Dundee.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
But, why does it matter?
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, then they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
There would probably only be 5 or 10 Tory MPs who VoNC Boris, but 100 who would support a short term PM to prevent No-Deal after a VoNC. The two are very very different.
We were told that leaving the EU was the end of the world - now PM Jess’s is an even worse fate ?
Wish the LDs would male their mind up.
LDs need Tory Remain seats in the South to make real progress at the next general election and they will not make the switch unless the LDs rule out propping up Corbyn.
Most of the Labour Remainers who have switched to the LDs can't stand Corbyn either so tactically it makes sense for Swinson
We were told that leaving the EU was the end of the world - now PM Jess’s is an even worse fate ?
Wish the LDs would male their mind up.
LDs need Tory Remain seats in the South to make real progress at the next general election and they will not make the switch unless the LDs rule out propping up Corbyn.
Most of the Labour Remainers who have switched to the LDs can't stand Corbyn either so tactically it makes sense for Swinson
Corbyn as PM must be avoided and Swinson is absolutely right to dismiss it.
OK - but unless you believe in the unicorn of a GNU under somebody else this is tantamount to saying that stopping Brexit must be avoided.
TBF - to you - I do remember you saying that you preferred a bad Brexit to the dreaded Jez as PM. Swinson obviously feels the same.
Perhaps it is safe for you to defect.
If TOPPING, mysticrose, et. al. prefer No Deal under Boris to 2nd Ref under Corbyn, that's up to them. The question is do all LD voters agree? I suspect a significant chunk don't.
Optimistically, I think it's positive that the opposition parties are at least talking to each other about VoNC and plans for a new GE. That's the way out of this mess.
For my part, I would be perfectly happy for a caretaker govt led by anyone trustworthy to extend a50 and call a new GE. Provided it lasts a matter of weeks only, seems fine to me.
Corbyn should start thinking about who he trusts to do this. If the stop No Deal gang manage to mess this up, there will be a lot of enraged voters out there.
Please explain how it is a way out of this mess?
Easy. The current parliament cannot decide. The next one should be able to, either by coalescing behind ref 2 (Lab, LD, SNP) or leave with No Deal (Tory/Brexit). One of those blocs should win and will work together to secure their preferred outcome.
And ignore the referendum result?? MPs cannot have that power
As many have pointed out - the referendum was only ADVISORY.
And the subsequent General Election, in which 86% of votes were cast for parties pledging to implement (some form of) Brexit?
Admittedly, it does now seem that views of politicians expressed to the voters when asking for those votes are only "advisory" - in that you would be well advised to ignore whatever politician are saying at election time.
We should not ignore what they say, but it has always been the case that they are not bound by what they say before an election or event so we need to take it with a pinch of salt, so I don't know why you are acting surprised that for once they are being bolder in not being bound by what they explicitly or implicitly said they'd do. MPs have always had that power and you surely know they have had that power, that's why manifestos are not enforcable, so sure get angry if they break their word, but don't pretend that they cannot have that power.
We knew this "offer" from Corbyn would come along sooner or later. From a bleakly practical perspective, it wouldn't help the LDs, Greens or the SNP (or even Plaid) to be seen to be in any way endorsing an individual as politically toxic as Jeremy Corbyn. To do so would be to hand the Conservatives and their friends in the media an enormous gift which they could run with every day from now till the GE and beyond.
Of course, by snubbing the Corbyn offer, there will be plenty of pushback from the pro-Corbyn lobby and from those claiming the minor parties are enabling No Deal. There's some truth in that I suppose but the 14 (welcome, Sarah) LDs are bit part players in the current Commons beside the potential anti-Johnson and anti-Corbyn rebels around which meaningful opposition to a No Deal needs to coalesce.
The problem is, the numbers just ain't there. Even if 30 Conservatives and 150 Labour MPs broke ranks and joined the 35 SNP and 14 LDs and a few others they would be comfortably outvoted by the Johnson loyalists let alone the Corbyn loyalists. The one straw is there is probably a majority which would support another extension rather than an outright No Deal assuming Hammond can lead 30-40 Conservatives into the anti-Government lobby but would Johnson take any notice of such a vote?
IF Labour were to come up with a carefully-worded motion which supported a further extension it might get through with Conservative rebels in support defying a 3-line whip but not, to stress, a confidence vote. Johnson would then have to decide whether he ignored Parliament and instigated a crisis or called a GE (and here he would rely on the stupidity of Corbyn to support an election rather than opposing and leaving Johnson in a corner).
The election would be fought on Johnson leaving no matter what (and he'd have to not just win a simple majority but ensure he had enough room to overcome the re-elected rebels) on 31/10, Labour and other parties perhaps maybe tentatively agreeing on a second referendum.
More generally, today's events make absolutely clear that there is no route to stopping No Deal Brexit that does not involve Jeremy Corbyn. So, if he does not believe that stopping No Deal Brexit is the overwhelming priority, No Deal Brexit will not be stopped.
Ladies and Gentlemen - prepare for a No Deal Brexit!
Are you really claiming that Jeremy Corbyn has enough power over his MPs that they let him steer the country to a default No Deal?
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
What does a sensible reaction to a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel look like? Apart from staying the fuck out of it obviously.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
You think Remain hasn't commanded the news agenda for three years?
Corbyn as PM must be avoided and Swinson is absolutely right to dismiss it.
OK - but unless you believe in the unicorn of a GNU under somebody else this is tantamount to saying that stopping Brexit must be avoided.
TBF - to you - I do remember you saying that you preferred a bad Brexit to the dreaded Jez as PM. Swinson obviously feels the same.
Perhaps it is safe for you to defect.
Nah you don't get to pull that one. Your MPs voted wholesale against the most sensible and, by you and me, preferred way of leaving the EU. If we leave without a deal it is all down to remainer Labour MPs who voted against the WA every time. Even that twat Boris Johnson saw the light and eventually voted for it at third time of asking.
We knew this "offer" from Corbyn would come along sooner or later. From a bleakly practical perspective, it wouldn't help the LDs, Greens or the SNP (or even Plaid) to be seen to be in any way endorsing an individual as politically toxic as Jeremy Corbyn. To do so would be to hand the Conservatives and their friends in the media an enormous gift which they could run with every day from now till the GE and beyond.
The Greens, SNP and Plaid are already making positive noises.
We were told that leaving the EU was the end of the world - now PM Jess’s is an even worse fate ?
Wish the LDs would male their mind up.
LDs need Tory Remain seats in the South to make real progress at the next general election and they will not make the switch unless the LDs rule out propping up Corbyn.
Most of the Labour Remainers who have switched to the LDs can't stand Corbyn either so tactically it makes sense for Swinson
You are trolling.
No, it is fact most Tory voters will never vote Corbyn Labour even if their lives depended on it, the only parties which have a chance of picking up Tory voters are the LDs and Brexit Party depending on whether they were Remainers or Leavers in 2016.
Which is why with further wipe out for Slab in prospect it is probably only a matter of time before the LDs replace Labour as the main party of opposition to the Tories as long as Corbynism leads Labour
And the subsequent General Election, in which 86% of votes were cast for parties pledging to implement (some form of) Brexit?
Admittedly, it does now seem that views of politicians expressed to the voters when asking for those votes are only "advisory" - in that you would be well advised to ignore whatever politician are saying at election time.
Surely that has always been the case. No one has ever trusted politicians not to lie, spin and deny everything?
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
What does a sensible reaction to a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel look like? Apart from staying the fuck out of it obviously.
The keen political and military minds of PB have decided that Corbyn would probably, I dunno, hand trident over to Putin or try to appease Iran by giving them Gibraltar or, y'know, something bad and anti-West like that. For our own safety we appraently need Boris' steady hand on the tiller.
I think you and Richard are trying to apply logic to the argument. What if I told you Corbyn and his narrow band of hard core followers would like nothing better than a Tory No Deal Brexit ?
I'd say I knew you were mistaken.
The thing is that any other caretaker (Ken Clarke, for instance, who I really like) will give Labour MPs in Leaver seats a cast-iron excuse to vote no - "yes, I wanted to block no deal, but I'm not voting for a Tory PM". Labour Leaver MPs are overwhelmingly in seats where voting for a non-Labour PM is career suicide. Clarke or similar would gain 30 Tories and lose 50 Labour. By contrast, NOT voting for Corbyn as a caretaker PM would be very difficult even for Labour Leavers.
But if it was say Harriet Harman, surely those Labour MPs could be brought on board? I don't know about the personalities, but there must be some Labour person Corbyn can trust to extend a50 and get us a new GE.
Corbyn cannot win a VOC. No Tory would ever back him. So, if I were an LD, I'd say we'll back you on the condition that if you lose you come out in support of a candidate, such as Harriet Harman, who rebel Tory MPs would be more inclined to back.
There is plenty of time to pivot to this position, I think.
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
You think Remain hasn't commanded the news agenda for three years?
Remain has not. Brexit has.
Together with the loons, headbangers and ERG....
Every possible way to frustrate Brexit - however "headbanging" - has filled the media. Corbyn's "offer" - and all the responses to it - will keep running for days and days. As it has for the past three years.
In the attempt to diss Jo's position on Corbyn, it's perhaps worth pointing out that many Labour MPs feel exactly the same as her!!!!! Obviously he's also totally unpalatable to every Tory MP.
Which is why Grieve and Letwin have today agreed to discuss it with him?
If (unlikely as it sounds) Grieve and Letwin come out in support of caretaker Corbyn Swinson is going to look extremely silly. Which is another reason she should have been more circumspect in her response.
Corbyn is walking into a trap.
In discussions a GONU is agreed but under Ken Clarke/Harriet Harman but Corbyn rejects it and takes his ball away. Who is then responsible for a no deal
I don't understand what you mean. You're describing the exact trap that Corbyn just dodged and lured Swinson into by turning the conversation into one about her being unwilling to work with him rather than him being unable to work with others.
You dodge a trap, and you dodge a trap, and everyone dodges a trap.
All the while people are think they're doging traps or laying ones, nothing actually is happening, and Boris just chuckles to himself for another day....
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
What does a sensible reaction to a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel look like? Apart from staying the fuck out of it obviously.
I have no idea. I suspect, though, that Tory MPs of whatever Brexit persuasion would believe that it would not be the reaction Corbyn would have.
More generally, today's events make absolutely clear that there is no route to stopping No Deal Brexit that does not involve Jeremy Corbyn. So, if he does not believe that stopping No Deal Brexit is the overwhelming priority, No Deal Brexit will not be stopped.
Ladies and Gentlemen - prepare for a No Deal Brexit!
Are you really claiming that Jeremy Corbyn has enough power over his MPs that they let him steer the country to a default No Deal?
So Swinson ruled out supporting Corbyn as PM, Sturgeon now almost ruled out supporting Corbyn as PM, with every poll now showing a Labour to Tory swing since the last general election since Boris took over looks like the only way we get a Labour government after the next general election is if Labour throw Corbyn and McDonnell under a bus!
And the subsequent General Election, in which 86% of votes were cast for parties pledging to implement (some form of) Brexit?
Admittedly, it does now seem that views of politicians expressed to the voters when asking for those votes are only "advisory" - in that you would be well advised to ignore whatever politician are saying at election time.
Surely that has always been the case. No one has ever trusted politicians not to lie, spin and deny everything?
Indeed. But don't get upset when voters elect politicians who aren't lying.
It was an opening gambit. If it is the only way to stop no brexit they might well reverse ferret in a few weeks.
Suicide for the LDs would have been to put Corbyn in Downing Street, however temporarily. It would have been used against the Party by the Conservatives and their media friends and the first law of politics is you don't hand your opponents a stick with which to beat you.
There will be far more LD voters and supporters happy we have rebuffed this opportunistic overture from Corbyn than those disappointed we have somehow empowered a "No Deal" Brexit (which we haven't and for which Labour deserve much more opprobrium).
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
What does a sensible reaction to a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel look like? Apart from staying the fuck out of it obviously.
I think you have already mentioned the best response.
I do not know why they worry about Corbyn. Once Boris has sold the UK's collective soul to the Americans, we will have to indulge in all their foreign adventures.
And the subsequent General Election, in which 86% of votes were cast for parties pledging to implement (some form of) Brexit?
Admittedly, it does now seem that views of politicians expressed to the voters when asking for those votes are only "advisory" - in that you would be well advised to ignore whatever politician are saying at election time.
Surely that has always been the case. No one has ever trusted politicians not to lie, spin and deny everything?
Indeed. But don't get upset when voters elect politicians who aren't lying.
It was an opening gambit. If it is the only way to stop no brexit they might well reverse ferret in a few weeks.
Suicide for the LDs would have been to put Corbyn in Downing Street, however temporarily. It would have been used against the Party by the Conservatives and their media friends and the first law of politics is you don't hand your opponents a stick with which to beat you.
There will be far more LD voters and supporters happy we have rebuffed this opportunistic overture from Corbyn than those disappointed we have somehow empowered a "No Deal" Brexit (which we haven't and for which Labour deserve much more opprobrium).
I think they can be reasonably confident of getting less blame, but betting on those most deserving getting proportionate levels of opprobrium seems risky.
Having read Corbyn's letter, am I right in assuming that he intends to delay the departure date, call an election and if Labour wins, negotiate and new deal, put that deal to a second referendum and oppose Remain in that vote? Thus confirm Labour as a Leave party
We were told that leaving the EU was the end of the world - now PM Jess’s is an even worse fate ?
Wish the LDs would male their mind up.
LDs need Tory Remain seats in the South to make real progress at the next general election and they will not make the switch unless the LDs rule out propping up Corbyn.
Most of the Labour Remainers who have switched to the LDs can't stand Corbyn either so tactically it makes sense for Swinson
You are trolling.
No, it is fact most Tory voters will never vote Corbyn Labour even if their lives depended on it, the only parties which have a chance of picking up Tory voters are the LDs and Brexit Party depending on whether they were Remainers or Leavers in 2016.
Which is why with further wipe out for Slab in prospect it is probably only a matter of time before the LDs replace Labour as the main party of opposition to the Tories as long as Corbynism leads Labour
Lol - a new definiton of 'Fact':
fact /fakt/
noun: an uncorroborated opinion of @HYUFD's "it is fact most Tory voters will never vote Corbyn Labour even if their lives depended on it"
Having read Corbyn's letter, am I right in assuming that he intends to delay the departure date, call an election and if Labour wins, negotiate and new deal, put that deal to a second referendum and oppose Remain in that vote? Thus confirm Labour as a Leave party
Pretty much, hence the LDs and SNP won't touch him
Having read Corbyn's letter, am I right in assuming that he intends to delay the departure date, call an election and if Labour wins, negotiate and new deal, put that deal to a second referendum and oppose Remain in that vote? Thus confirm Labour as a Leave party
As opposed to the Lib Dem plan of having a second referendum on Remain vs. ???????
It was an opening gambit. If it is the only way to stop no brexit they might well reverse ferret in a few weeks.
Suicide for the LDs would have been to put Corbyn in Downing Street, however temporarily. It would have been used against the Party by the Conservatives and their media friends and the first law of politics is you don't hand your opponents a stick with which to beat you.
There will be far more LD voters and supporters happy we have rebuffed this opportunistic overture from Corbyn than those disappointed we have somehow empowered a "No Deal" Brexit (which we haven't and for which Labour deserve much more opprobrium).
Stodge has it bang on and I don't think it will impact on LAB-LD switchers. They hate the antisemitic-stained LAB leader as much as anyone. The Tories would have a field day if Swinson did anything to empower Corbyn.
Somebody over at alternatehistory.com is doing a timeline for the elections leading up to the "V for Vendetta" world. Norsefire just won the 1990 election, beating Neil Kinnock's Labour and James Prior's Conservatives. It's really good, so pop over there and have a look if you have a few minutes.
Well, given that you are all entertaining yourselves with impossible leaders of an improbable GNU, it might be appropriate...
It was an opening gambit. If it is the only way to stop no brexit they might well reverse ferret in a few weeks.
Suicide for the LDs would have been to put Corbyn in Downing Street, however temporarily. It would have been used against the Party by the Conservatives and their media friends and the first law of politics is you don't hand your opponents a stick with which to beat you.
There will be far more LD voters and supporters happy we have rebuffed this opportunistic overture from Corbyn than those disappointed we have somehow empowered a "No Deal" Brexit (which we haven't and for which Labour deserve much more opprobrium).
Stodge has it bang on and I don't think it will impact on LAB-LD switchers. They hate the antisemitic-stained LAB leader as much as anyone. The Tories would have a field day if Swinson did anything to empower Corbyn.
I agree, from my experience canvassing in the last month I have found a few Tory switchers to the LDs or Brexit Party, I have yet to find a single Tory 2017 voter who has switched to Corbyn Labour.
Nah you don't get to pull that one. Your MPs voted wholesale against the most sensible and, by you and me, preferred way of leaving the EU. If we leave without a deal it is all down to remainer Labour MPs who voted against the WA every time. Even that twat Boris Johnson saw the light and eventually voted for it at third time of asking.
You seem to have given up and be positioning yourself for the blame game.
Me, I'm still on the practicalities of stopping Brexit (assuming my view that BoJo will extend and get the WA through is bollox, which it probably is given nobody else seems to share it.)
So, this GNU under PM Not Corbyn, even in the unlikely event of it forming, all it can feasibly do is extend for a general election.
Then, for Brexit to be stopped (via Ref2), that election has to put somebody other than Boris Johnson into Number 10.
And the only realistic alternative to Boris Johnson is ...
Jeremy Corbyn!
That's right, isn't it? I can't see that I'm missing anything.
It was an opening gambit. If it is the only way to stop no brexit they might well reverse ferret in a few weeks.
Suicide for the LDs would have been to put Corbyn in Downing Street, however temporarily. It would have been used against the Party by the Conservatives and their media friends and the first law of politics is you don't hand your opponents a stick with which to beat you.
There will be far more LD voters and supporters happy we have rebuffed this opportunistic overture from Corbyn than those disappointed we have somehow empowered a "No Deal" Brexit (which we haven't and for which Labour deserve much more opprobrium).
Stodge has it bang on and I don't think it will impact on LAB-LD switchers. They hate the antisemitic-stained LAB leader as much as anyone. The Tories would have a field day if Swinson did anything to empower Corbyn.
We were told that leaving the EU was the end of the world - now PM Jess’s is an even worse fate ?
Wish the LDs would male their mind up.
LDs need Tory Remain seats in the South to make real progress at the next general election and they will not make the switch unless the LDs rule out propping up Corbyn.
Most of the Labour Remainers who have switched to the LDs can't stand Corbyn either so tactically it makes sense for Swinson
You are trolling.
No, it is fact most Tory voters will never vote Corbyn Labour even if their lives depended on it, the only parties which have a chance of picking up Tory voters are the LDs and Brexit Party depending on whether they were Remainers or Leavers in 2016.
Which is why with further wipe out for Slab in prospect it is probably only a matter of time before the LDs replace Labour as the main party of opposition to the Tories as long as Corbynism leads Labour
Lol - a new definiton of 'Fact':
fact /fakt/
noun: an uncorroborated opinion of @HYUFD's "it is fact most Tory voters will never vote Corbyn Labour even if their lives depended on it"
synonyms: bullshit, bollocks, hyperbole.
I know Corbynistas may not like inconvenient facts but tough
Strong empirical evidence that nationalism is bollocks...
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-won-war-sayseveryone.html Ask any of the few remaining World War II veterans what they did during the war and you're likely to get a humble answer. But ask the person on the street how important their country's contribution to the war effort was and you'll probably hear something far less modest. A new study suggests people from Germany, Russia, the UK and the US on average all think their own country shouldered more than half the burden of winning World War II....
My take is that Boris has no intention of doing a 'no deal'. He wants to give the impression of going flat out to implement Brexit and to prepare for no deal. But he knows that parliament will stop him, and at that point he will have the casus belli for a general election, staying on the front foot:
Just look at me doing everything I can to implement the will of the people while these f*ckers in parliament keep pulling out the rug. Let's be done with them - give me a majority for Brexit. At the same time he is playing up the danger and uncertainty of VONC. Certainly he's got under the skin of his detractors. I suspect that Cummings knows what he is doing and things are going to plan.
And I would do anything to stay I'd revoke without once looking back I would do anything to stay I'd no-con Boris and that's a fact But I just can't vote for Jeremy right now Oh no, no way And I would do anything to stay Oh I would do anything to stay I would do anything to stay, but I won't do that No, I won't do that
Strong empirical evidence that nationalism is bollocks...
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-won-war-sayseveryone.html Ask any of the few remaining World War II veterans what they did during the war and you're likely to get a humble answer. But ask the person on the street how important their country's contribution to the war effort was and you'll probably hear something far less modest. A new study suggests people from Germany, Russia, the UK and the US on average all think their own country shouldered more than half the burden of winning World War II....
Corbyn's proposal of a temporary government, led by a caretaker PM who happens to be himself, looks to me like a mistake. The reason for this is very simple: it's clearly an idea of some merit in itself, but by using the terms 'caretaker' and 'interim', promising not to implement any Labour policies as this caretaker PM, he has surely left himself open to a completely unanswerable argument: if we're going to have a caretaker PM, supported across parties, surely that person has to be someone who is NOT going to be fighting the next election as leader of one of the parties?
In fact, it's obvious that the best candidate for such a temporary post would be someone who is not even standing as an MP at the next election, so as to be completely untainted by any consideration of personal ambition or partisan calculation. Add to that the fact that Corbyn is one of the most divisive figures in parliament, doesn't even have the confidence of his own MPs, and is the last person that LibDems, independent and Tory MPs might wish to see in No 10, this initiative looks like at best a silly stunt, and probably a trap for himself. He has no answer to the question of why the caretaker PM he proposes shouldn't be a genuine caretaker.
Churchill continued as caretaker PM in May 1945 when the Coalition Government ended and went on to lead the Tories at the July election.
Somebody over at alternatehistory.com is doing a timeline for the elections leading up to the "V for Vendetta" world. Norsefire just won the 1990 election, beating Neil Kinnock's Labour and James Prior's Conservatives. It's really good, so pop over there and have a look if you have a few minutes.
Well, given that you are all entertaining yourselves with impossible leaders of an improbable GNU, it might be appropriate...
Nah you don't get to pull that one. Your MPs voted wholesale against the most sensible and, by you and me, preferred way of leaving the EU. If we leave without a deal it is all down to remainer Labour MPs who voted against the WA every time. Even that twat Boris Johnson saw the light and eventually voted for it at third time of asking.
You seem to have given up and be positioning yourself for the blame game.
Me, I'm still on the practicalities of stopping Brexit (assuming my view that BoJo will extend and get the WA through is bollox, which it probably is given nobody else seems to share it.)
So, this GNU under PM Not Corbyn, even in the unlikely event of it forming, all it can feasibly do is extend for a general election.
Then, for Brexit to be stopped (via Ref2), that election has to put somebody other than Boris Johnson into Number 10.
And the only realistic alternative to Boris Johnson is ...
Jeremy Corbyn!
That's right, isn't it? I can't see that I'm missing anything.
As someone put it succinctly, the Liberal Democrats currently in the HoC is a rounding error.
Comments
All the while people are think they're doging traps or laying ones, nothing actually is happening, and Boris just chuckles to himself for another day....
Ladies and Gentlemen - prepare for a No Deal Brexit!
It is true though that between them, Swinson and Corbyn now have the opportunity to command the news agenda.
If a Tory MP is going to VNOC Boris, then they're out of the Tory party and have almost certainly lost their seat in the GE.
If you're going to be hanged, why worry if the hanging is for a sheep or a lamb.
Corbyn could still do a VoNC and Tory rebels bring their own government down. The law over the PM's power to decide the election date would also need to be changed.
Next, SNP. They are on side. So will be PC and Lucas.
The Lib Dems have to choose. Do they want to stop NDB or not ?
And events happen. I think they'd trust a Harriet Harman type figure to react sensibly to, say, a significant escalation in hostilities between Iran and Israel, or sabre rattling on the borders of the Baltic States by Putin. I do not think they'd trust Corbyn in the same way.
*Delete as appropriate
Day 2, Corbyn orders the destruction of our nuclear warheads.
There's gonna be some pig-sick MPs within the week.....
Day 3, another PM
Wish the LDs would male their mind up.
TBF - to you - I do remember you saying that you preferred a bad Brexit to the dreaded Jez as PM. Swinson obviously feels the same.
Perhaps it is safe for you to defect.
But the news agenda, by and large, as been how, why and when we are going to Brexit, and the various consequences of doing so.
Better Clarke or Harman, as they suggest, if one wanted to steer away from departing with no deal.
Backing things you don't want as part of a cunning plan is how foolish MPs got themselves into this mess. Trusting the far left with power is damned stupid.
The two with the shortest life expectancies.
Most of the Labour Remainers who have switched to the LDs can't stand Corbyn either so tactically it makes sense for Swinson
Is this comparing apples to oranges somehow or have numbers really increased that much?
I must have forgotten David Cameron’s commitment to nationalising the means of production.
We knew this "offer" from Corbyn would come along sooner or later. From a bleakly practical perspective, it wouldn't help the LDs, Greens or the SNP (or even Plaid) to be seen to be in any way endorsing an individual as politically toxic as Jeremy Corbyn. To do so would be to hand the Conservatives and their friends in the media an enormous gift which they could run with every day from now till the GE and beyond.
Of course, by snubbing the Corbyn offer, there will be plenty of pushback from the pro-Corbyn lobby and from those claiming the minor parties are enabling No Deal. There's some truth in that I suppose but the 14 (welcome, Sarah) LDs are bit part players in the current Commons beside the potential anti-Johnson and anti-Corbyn rebels around which meaningful opposition to a No Deal needs to coalesce.
The problem is, the numbers just ain't there. Even if 30 Conservatives and 150 Labour MPs broke ranks and joined the 35 SNP and 14 LDs and a few others they would be comfortably outvoted by the Johnson loyalists let alone the Corbyn loyalists. The one straw is there is probably a majority which would support another extension rather than an outright No Deal assuming Hammond can lead 30-40 Conservatives into the anti-Government lobby but would Johnson take any notice of such a vote?
IF Labour were to come up with a carefully-worded motion which supported a further extension it might get through with Conservative rebels in support defying a 3-line whip but not, to stress, a confidence vote. Johnson would then have to decide whether he ignored Parliament and instigated a crisis or called a GE (and here he would rely on the stupidity of Corbyn to support an election rather than opposing and leaving Johnson in a corner).
The election would be fought on Johnson leaving no matter what (and he'd have to not just win a simple majority but ensure he had enough room to overcome the re-elected rebels) on 31/10, Labour and other parties perhaps maybe tentatively agreeing on a second referendum.
Together with the loons, headbangers and ERG....
Which is why with further wipe out for Slab in prospect it is probably only a matter of time before the LDs replace Labour as the main party of opposition to the Tories as long as Corbynism leads Labour
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1161966101812695041
Will nick that.
There will be far more LD voters and supporters happy we have rebuffed this opportunistic overture from Corbyn than those disappointed we have somehow empowered a "No Deal" Brexit (which we haven't and for which Labour deserve much more opprobrium).
I do not know why they worry about Corbyn. Once Boris has sold the UK's collective soul to the Americans, we will have to indulge in all their foreign adventures.
Cat. Pigeons.
fact
/fakt/
noun:
an uncorroborated opinion of @HYUFD's
"it is fact most Tory voters will never vote Corbyn Labour even if their lives depended on it"
synonyms: bullshit, bollocks, hyperbole.
Fudge is a great name for a politician.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/15/marcia-fudge-kamala-harris-endorsement-cbc-1463653
Well, given that you are all entertaining yourselves with impossible leaders of an improbable GNU, it might be appropriate...
Propping up Corbyn would be suicide for the LDs
Me, I'm still on the practicalities of stopping Brexit (assuming my view that BoJo will extend and get the WA through is bollox, which it probably is given nobody else seems to share it.)
So, this GNU under PM Not Corbyn, even in the unlikely event of it forming, all it can feasibly do is extend for a general election.
Then, for Brexit to be stopped (via Ref2), that election has to put somebody other than Boris Johnson into Number 10.
And the only realistic alternative to Boris Johnson is ...
Jeremy Corbyn!
That's right, isn't it? I can't see that I'm missing anything.
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-won-war-sayseveryone.html
Ask any of the few remaining World War II veterans what they did during the war and you're likely to get a humble answer. But ask the person on the street how important their country's contribution to the war effort was and you'll probably hear something far less modest. A new study suggests people from Germany, Russia, the UK and the US on average all think their own country shouldered more than half the burden of winning World War II....
Just look at me doing everything I can to implement the will of the people while these f*ckers in parliament keep pulling out the rug. Let's be done with them - give me a majority for Brexit. At the same time he is playing up the danger and uncertainty of VONC. Certainly he's got under the skin of his detractors. I suspect that Cummings knows what he is doing and things are going to plan.
I'd revoke without once looking back
I would do anything to stay
I'd no-con Boris and that's a fact
But I just can't vote for Jeremy right now
Oh no, no way
And I would do anything to stay
Oh I would do anything to stay
I would do anything to stay, but I won't do that
No, I won't do that