Wonder if the cretins still believe it's going to hurt them more than us?
Depends how you define hurt.
IMNSHO if the EU continues to insist upon the backstop it will under our new leadership hurt the EU more than it hurts us, which wasn't the case under May. Which is why they should drop it.
How will it hurt them more?
A few ways, which is why I said it depends how you define it. On some measures it hurts us more, but on others it hurts them more and it depends upon priorities.
Irish border: They care passionately about this, which is what drove the backstop. They've been playing a game here insisting they're prepared to have no deal, to get a backstop, to avoid a potential no deal. If we simply don't care as much as they do about the Irish border, if we adopt a laissez-faire approach to this, then it will hurt them more. They're not getting what they want and they face an impossible dilemma.
1: Either the Irish are forced to erect a hard border, which they passionately don't want. 2: Or the EU are forced to develop alternative arrangements away from the border to keep the border open while respecting the integrity of the Single Market. This is exactly what Brexiteers have been demanding and what has been dismissed as a unicorn. 3: Or the EU compromises on the integrity of the Single Market in order to keep the Irish border open. Thus again giving us what we want but them not having what they want.
Either way whatever they choose the integrity of the UK is maintained, only the integrity of the EU is threatened. Ultimately the integrity of the UK may be threatened by a border poll, which itself arguably hurts Ireland more than England, but I think the odds of this are significantly overblown.
Financial settlement: We are due to pay them billions. We won't. Simple.
Benefits to costs: We Brexiteers view our freedom as beneficial. They [like Remainers] view Brexit as entirely harmful with no gain. So we may absorb any hurt with a stoic "no pain, no gain" attitude but any hurt to them brings no benefits whatsoever.
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
A strong poll for Trump on the economy, outside of that he looks very unpopular. We must be due the next recession and market crash sooner rather than later, will fortune smile favourably on Trump again. It would be kind of ironic if no deal Brexit triggers the next global recession and costs Trump the 2020 election.
Wonder if the cretins still believe it's going to hurt them more than us?
Depends how you define hurt.
IMNSHO if the EU continues to insist upon the backstop it will under our new leadership hurt the EU more than it hurts us, which wasn't the case under May. Which is why they should drop it.
How will it hurt them more?
A few ways, which is why I said it depends how you define it. On some measures it hurts us more, but on others it hurts them more and it depends upon priorities.
Irish border: They care passionately about this, which is what drove the backstop. They've been playing a game here insisting they're prepared to have no deal, to get a backstop, to avoid a potential no deal. If we simply don't care as much as they do about the Irish border, if we adopt a laissez-faire approach to this, then it will hurt them more. They're not getting what they want and they face an impossible dilemma.
1: Either the Irish are forced to erect a hard border, which they passionately don't want. 2: Or the EU are forced to develop alternative arrangements away from the border to keep the border open while respecting the integrity of the Single Market. This is exactly what Brexiteers have been demanding and what has been dismissed as a unicorn. 3: Or the EU compromises on the integrity of the Single Market in order to keep the Irish border open. Thus again giving us what we want but them not having what they want.
Either way whatever they choose the integrity of the UK is maintained, only the integrity of the EU is threatened. Ultimately the integrity of the UK may be threatened by a border poll, which itself arguably hurts Ireland more than England, but I think the odds of this are significantly overblown.
Financial settlement: We are due to pay them billions. We won't. Simple.
Whilst broadly agreeing with your Irish border problem summation, all of this "who suffers most" debate is pointless. May's "No deal is better than a bad deal" seemingly applies to both sides. Both sides should therefore be concentrating on reaching an okay deal.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
The decision to move the bulk of production to Germany has already been taken. Although they might want money from the UK government to keep the rest here.
Boris still is on tne social left as you will see as he unveils more of his domestic agenda
I oppose Boris on no deal but not the policies he is putting forward
A couple of weeks ago you could not bring yourself to vote for Boris, now you are applauding warmly on all but one policy.
Incredible!
Why? Is he not allowed to change his mind?
One way of showing you have a mind is being prepared to change it.....
Indeed, but it is quite the volte face.
Not really, Boris is putting forward the kind of policies Big_G himself supports so why shouldn't he be applauding those policies?
It would be rather hypocritical or closed-minded to oppose a politician putting forward what you've previously suggested, because of who it is.
So why not express that support with a vote?
A vote on what?
We're not due another vote on anything until after 31 October now at which point Schrodinger's Brexit should have been resolved.
Perhaps you missed the recent voting by Tory members?
*sigh!*
I did indeed miss it, because I wasn't a member. I'm tempted to rejoin now though, I feel as a socially liberal Tory that I've got my party back now May's gone.
I suspect and hope it will be many years before there's another leadership election though.
I have never been a member of any party, but I have voted across the political spectrum over the years and that does include having voted Tory at more than one GE.
Given the antics of the current Tory party, I cannot see anything "conservative" about them.
They are not the party they once were even 10 years ago and certainly not 20 or 30 years ago. They need some radical changes before I could vote for them again
Globalisation, the bank bailouts and a trillion quid of government borrowing have killed conservatism.
The only arguments left are who gets what place at the trough.
A strong poll for Trump on the economy, outside of that he looks very unpopular. We must be due the next recession and market crash sooner rather than later, will fortune smile favourably on Trump again. It would be kind of ironic if no deal Brexit triggers the next global recession and costs Trump the 2020 election.
Trump is even money on Betfair, I don't think that's correct he should be 11-8 or thereabouts I think.
Mr Cummings told the group of advisers that if any of them tried to take him to an employment tribunal "you will be dead to me", according to one source.
He's above the law then is he?
He thinks he is. To be fair, you don't generally have much of a social relationship with bosses you sue. But this sort of behaviour is so contrary to best HR practice that if he carries on like this and someone does sue, it will be kerching, kerching for them.
Indeed. My (admittedly limited) experience of this management style is that the perpetrators think the rules don't apply to them, until they suddenly find they do.
A Cummings is not for life, just until Christmas.
No one expects political longevity for him. He has been brought in only to get Brexit done and the BXP destroyed.
I am not convinced that he will manage either. The idea that certain spindoctors are mysterious Svengalis is for the birds. It is all smoke and mirrors.
One of the grim fascinations coming up is seeing what happens to Dominic C. Yes, he masterminded Vote Leave, and his decision to save and throw lots of resources at social media in the final week was brave and pivotal. But running a referendum campaign is a fairly trivial problem- one aim, one target date, one enemy to mess with.
Now, he has to run a government with pressures from all sides, competing success criteria, a need to have a plan beyond October 31, and an opponent (the EU) that seems justified in its confidence that it can just wait for gravity to take its course.
In the past, Cummings has been pretty contemptuous of the civil service. Now he has the chance to show us he can run the machinery of government better. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
Wonder if the cretins still believe it's going to hurt them more than us?
Depends how you define hurt.
IMNSHO if the EU continues to insist upon the backstop it will under our new leadership hurt the EU more than it hurts us, which wasn't the case under May. Which is why they should drop it.
How will it hurt them more?
A few ways, which is why I said it depends how you define it. On some measures it hurts us more, but on others it hurts them more and it depends upon priorities.
Irish border: They care passionately about this, which is what drove the backstop. They've been playing a game here insisting they're prepared to have no deal, to get a backstop, to avoid a potential no deal. If we simply don't care as much as they do about the Irish border, if we adopt a laissez-faire approach to this, then it will hurt them more. They're not getting what they want and they face an impossible dilemma.
1: Either the Irish are forced to erect a hard border, which they passionately don't want. 2: Or the EU are forced to develop alternative arrangements away from the border to keep the border open while respecting the integrity of the Single Market. This is exactly what Brexiteers have been demanding and what has been dismissed as a unicorn. 3: Or the EU compromises on the integrity of the Single Market in order to keep the Irish border open. Thus again giving us what we want but them not having what they want.
Either way whatever they choose the integrity of the UK is maintained, only the integrity of the EU is threatened. Ultimately the integrity of the UK may be threatened by a border poll, which itself arguably hurts Ireland more than England, but I think the odds of this are significantly overblown.
Financial settlement: We are due to pay them billions. We won't. Simple.
Whilst broadly agreeing with your Irish border problem summation, all of this "who suffers most" debate is pointless. May's "No deal is better than a bad deal" seemingly applies to both sides. Both sides should therefore be concentrating on reaching an okay deal.
I completely agree, the problem is that at the minute a compromise has been met on almost every issue bar the backstop . . . to which now both sides are demanding the other side to concede.
To me logically the EU should concede because what they are seeking [the backstop] they won't get in a no deal scenario anyway, so why spurn a compromise deal in order to get no deal?
Whereas what Brexiteers are seeking [control over our laws etc] we will gain in no deal and won't in the backstop, so we have less reason to concede.
Looking back now, I can’t see that Brexit was about anything other than bolstering the career of Boris Johnson. (Some other reasons were mentioned I seem to recall but these seem wholly illusory.)
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
Looking back now, I can’t see that Brexit was about anything other than bolstering the career of Boris Johnson. (Some other reasons were mentioned I seem to recall but these seem wholly illusory.)
Yeah that's exactly what 17.4 million people voted for.
17.4 million people decided we wanted Boris Johnson. That was enough for us all.
One of the grim fascinations coming up is seeing what happens to Dominic C. Yes, he masterminded Vote Leave, and his decision to save and throw lots of resources at social media in the final week was brave and pivotal. But running a referendum campaign is a fairly trivial problem- one aim, one target date, one enemy to mess with.
Now, he has to run a government with pressures from all sides, competing success criteria, a need to have a plan beyond October 31, and an opponent (the EU) that seems justified in its confidence that it can just wait for gravity to take its course.
In the past, Cummings has been pretty contemptuous of the civil service. Now he has the chance to show us he can run the machinery of government better. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
That's the point though.
It doesn't look at all like he has been brought in to govern.
It looks like he is there solely to win an election against Corbyn in the next 6 months.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island?
*raise hand*
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
I completely agree, the problem is that at the minute a compromise has been met on almost every issue bar the backstop . . . to which now both sides are demanding the other side to concede.
The Eu already compromised.
We asked for the backstop. They reluctantly agreed.
Looking back now, I can’t see that Brexit was about anything other than bolstering the career of Boris Johnson. (Some other reasons were mentioned I seem to recall but these seem wholly illusory.)
Yeah that's exactly what 17.4 million people voted for.
17.4 million people decided we wanted Boris Johnson. That was enough for us all.
As I said, other reasons for Brexit were mentioned along the way, but these have been largely forgotten or will never materialise. Boris’s career is certainly now the prime focus of it all.
I completely agree, the problem is that at the minute a compromise has been met on almost every issue bar the backstop . . . to which now both sides are demanding the other side to concede.
The Eu already compromised.
We asked for the backstop. They reluctantly agreed.
"We" didn't ask for the backstop.
I don't seem to recall Boris ever asking for the backstop.
I completely agree, the problem is that at the minute a compromise has been met on almost every issue bar the backstop . . . to which now both sides are demanding the other side to concede.
The Eu already compromised.
We asked for the backstop. They reluctantly agreed.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
I completely agree, the problem is that at the minute a compromise has been met on almost every issue bar the backstop . . . to which now both sides are demanding the other side to concede.
The Eu already compromised.
We asked for the backstop. They reluctantly agreed.
"We" didn't ask for the backstop.
I don't seem to recall Boris ever asking for the backstop.
Wasn’t it in the Chequers agreement? My recollection is that Boris said that was great.
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
The decision to move the bulk of production to Germany has already been taken. Although they might want money from the UK government to keep the rest here.
Have you read the FT article? The first paragraph is that PSA is committed to making the next Astra in the UK.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
RBS was hardly a great advert for private enterprise!
Anyway, it seems clear that your "Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything" was somewhat overstating the case. EDIT: Just seen you latest update, Looks like I was being unfair, there.
I'm not surprised that 20% or more want to see more nationalisation though... there are plenty who are not seeing much benefit from the free market approach to the economy.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island?
*raise hand*
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
Mr Cummings told the group of advisers that if any of them tried to take him to an employment tribunal "you will be dead to me", according to one source.
He's above the law then is he?
He thinks he is. To be fair, you don't generally have much of a social relationship with bosses you sue. But this sort of behaviour is so contrary to best HR practice that if he carries on like this and someone does sue, it will be kerching, kerching for them.
Indeed. My (admittedly limited) experience of this management style is that the perpetrators think the rules don't apply to them, until they suddenly find they do.
A Cummings is not for life, just until Christmas.
No one expects political longevity for him. He has been brought in only to get Brexit done and the BXP destroyed.
I am not convinced that he will manage either. The idea that certain spindoctors are mysterious Svengalis is for the birds. It is all smoke and mirrors.
One of the grim fascinations coming up is seeing what happens to Dominic C. Yes, he masterminded Vote Leave, and his decision to save and throw lots of resources at social media in the final week was brave and pivotal. But running a referendum campaign is a fairly trivial problem- one aim, one target date, one enemy to mess with.
Now, he has to run a government with pressures from all sides, competing success criteria, a need to have a plan beyond October 31, and an opponent (the EU) that seems justified in its confidence that it can just wait for gravity to take its course.
In the past, Cummings has been pretty contemptuous of the civil service. Now he has the chance to show us he can run the machinery of government better. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
Not to mention MPs. Many of whom will not be party to his cunning plans.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
The decision to move the bulk of production to Germany has already been taken. Although they might want money from the UK government to keep the rest here.
Have you read the FT article? The first paragraph is that PSA is committed to making the next Astra in the UK.
Three quarters of the current model Astra is made in Liverpool with one quarter in Poland. The decision has been made to produce three quarters of the next model in Germany with the remainder still TBD. The hope is that the one quarter will made in Liverpool.
The bulk of production will therefore move from the UK to Germany.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island?
*raise hand*
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
That's 2 don't knows then
Plus one don't care.
There was a Grauniad puff-piece over the weekend about how LI was gripping the nation with peak viewing figures of 6 million... or less than 1 in 10; I suspect >90% are don't knows really.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
I suspect you're right, and I'd be surprised if the percentage was as low as 36%. Political polling generally shows that anything other than budgets, general elections and new PMs have limited impact and pass most people by, with negligible long term impacts.
I also couldn't name a single person who's been on Love Island. Sounds like we need a Venn diagram...
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
I completely agree, the problem is that at the minute a compromise has been met on almost every issue bar the backstop . . . to which now both sides are demanding the other side to concede.
The Eu already compromised.
We asked for the backstop. They reluctantly agreed.
"We" didn't ask for the backstop.
I don't seem to recall Boris ever asking for the backstop.
Wasn’t it in the Chequers agreement? My recollection is that Boris said that was great.
My recollection is that malevolent Remainer May was so insecure and vindictive she briefed that any Cabinet Ministers who resigned over Chequers would be stranded their, have their car removed immediately and be left to get a Taxi back home . . . as if that would prevent people saying they agreed to her face, getting home and then resigning later that weekend!
A strong poll for Trump on the economy, outside of that he looks very unpopular. We must be due the next recession and market crash sooner rather than later, will fortune smile favourably on Trump again. It would be kind of ironic if no deal Brexit triggers the next global recession and costs Trump the 2020 election.
Trump is even money on Betfair, I don't think that's correct he should be 11-8 or thereabouts I think.
Feels like he can win another tight contest (maybe chance of winning 55%-45% his favour) if the economy is going well but very unlikely if the economy has tanked (maybe 15%-85%). Obviously the economy can be between going well/tanked, but I concur that evens sounds like a decen lay, not sure quite how much beyond that. Given his age and scandals you are probably about right.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
I know it's an old poll, but I doubt the numbers have changed much since it was published. What amazes me is that a third of people want nationalised mobile phone networks. What would that achieve? Other than higher bills and worse service for everyone. I have to tolerate a pseudo-public telecoms monopoly on my internet connection via BT Openreach and it's awful. Any fault takes forever to fix and needs three weeks notice before they send anyone out.
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
The decision to move the bulk of production to Germany has already been taken. Although they might want money from the UK government to keep the rest here.
Have you read the FT article? The first paragraph is that PSA is committed to making the next Astra in the UK.
Three quarters of the current model Astra is made in Liverpool with one quarter in Poland. The decision has been made to produce three quarters of the next model in Germany with the remainder still TBD. The hope is that the one quarter will made in Liverpool.
The bulk of production will therefore move from the UK to Germany.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island?
*raise hand*
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
That's 2 don't knows then
Plus one don't care.
There was a Grauniad puff-piece over the weekend about how LI was gripping the nation with peak viewing figures of 6 million... or less than 1 in 10; I suspect >90% are don't knows really.
Who knows who's guess is most accurate. I don't give a toss.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
I know it's an old poll, but I doubt the numbers have changed much since it was published. What amazes me is that a third of people want nationalised mobile phone networks. What would that achieve? Other than higher bills and worse service for everyone. I have to tolerate a pseudo-public telecoms monopoly on my internet connection via BT Openreach and it's awful. Any fault takes forever to fix and needs three weeks notice before they send anyone out.
I know we are discouraged from saying people didnt know what they voted for but surely it can be accepted that not all the country understands what nationalisation involves.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
I suspect you're right, and I'd be surprised if the percentage was as low as 36%. Political polling generally shows that anything other than budgets, general elections and new PMs have limited impact and pass most people by, with negligible long term impacts.
I also couldn't name a single person who's been on Love Island. Sounds like we need a Venn diagram...
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
RBS was hardly a great advert for private enterprise!
Anyway, it seems clear that your "Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything" was somewhat overstating the case. EDIT: Just seen you latest update, Looks like I was being unfair, there.
I'm not surprised that 20% or more want to see more nationalisation though... there are plenty who are not seeing much benefit from the free market approach to the economy.
There's certainly a sector of society who own little, suffer from high prices and have little financial hope.
So its easy to see why they might support radical change to the economy.
There will also be people who suspect they are being ripped off by businesses and think they would get things 20% cheaper if there were no shareholders and profits.
I think that the ability to change utility / insurance etc suppliers has encouraged that second view because if you don't annually change your suppliers you can be ripped off. Of course before you could easily compare prices and change your suppliers you had little idea if you were being ripped off or not and little ability to do anything about it if you were.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
I know it's an old poll, but I doubt the numbers have changed much since it was published. What amazes me is that a third of people want nationalised mobile phone networks. What would that achieve? Other than higher bills and worse service for everyone. I have to tolerate a pseudo-public telecoms monopoly on my internet connection via BT Openreach and it's awful. Any fault takes forever to fix and needs three weeks notice before they send anyone out.
Entirely the opposite experience for me. They came and did the work within the hour. After the private sector Talk Talk failed to turn up for five days. Needless to say I left them.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island?
*raise hand*
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
Mrs Foxy is a fan, but she chucks me out when it starts. The sarcasm gets too much. See you 2100 tommorow...
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
I know it's an old poll, but I doubt the numbers have changed much since it was published. What amazes me is that a third of people want nationalised mobile phone networks. What would that achieve? Other than higher bills and worse service for everyone. I have to tolerate a pseudo-public telecoms monopoly on my internet connection via BT Openreach and it's awful. Any fault takes forever to fix and needs three weeks notice before they send anyone out.
Entirely the opposite experience for me. They came and did the work within the hour. After the private sector Talk Talk failed to turn up for five days. Needless to say I left them.
Sounded like BT Openreach was their only option, whereas you had a choice. I think that was their point
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
On-thread: Pretty impressive poll for Swinson, as she’s hardly been in the media and even her election was crowded out by the Boris effect.
Appalling for Corbyn. Simply appalling. Is this the lowest Preferred PM % for a LotO ever?
Personally I find it shocking that 15% of the population think he is the best qualified to be PM, even amongst that rather rum bunch. What are these people thinking?
Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything.
There's a poll that shows that?
I've seen a poll here with over 20% support for the nationalisation of supermarkets, travel agents and car factories.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents 24% car manufacturing 27% airlines 33% mobile phone network 35% food
I know it's an old poll, but I doubt the numbers have changed much since it was published. What amazes me is that a third of people want nationalised mobile phone networks. What would that achieve? Other than higher bills and worse service for everyone. I have to tolerate a pseudo-public telecoms monopoly on my internet connection via BT Openreach and it's awful. Any fault takes forever to fix and needs three weeks notice before they send anyone out.
Entirely the opposite experience for me. They came and did the work within the hour. After the private sector Talk Talk failed to turn up for five days. Needless to say I left them.
Sounded like BT Openreach was their only option, whereas you had a choice. I think that was their point
No. It took 5 days for Talk Talk to run a test, to show the problem was between the telegraph pole and the house. And therefore BTs responsibility. They were round in an hour and done in 2.
I'm not opposed to outgoing PMs giving out a few gongs to supporters, I don't think it that unreasonable that the outgoing head of government in some small way can reward their staunchest supporters in such a way as it is only a title at the end of the day.
A peerage is a different kettle of fish, even if latitude is granted with honours given while the PM resigns, raising someone to the legislature is pretty substantial.
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
The decision to move the bulk of production to Germany has already been taken. Although they might want money from the UK government to keep the rest here.
Have you read the FT article? The first paragraph is that PSA is committed to making the next Astra in the UK.
Three quarters of the current model Astra is made in Liverpool with one quarter in Poland. The decision has been made to produce three quarters of the next model in Germany with the remainder still TBD. The hope is that the one quarter will made in Liverpool.
The bulk of production will therefore move from the UK to Germany.
So you have not read the article.
I read the article, but you didn't read my comment that explained the background to the article, hence your ill informed remark.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island?
*raise hand*
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
Mrs Foxy is a fan, but she chucks me out when it starts. The sarcasm gets too much. See you 2100 tommorow...
Tommy and Molly Mae massive favourites but Amber and Gregg could have a chance. India and Ovie the outsiders.
Peugeot/Vauxhall have already decided to move the bulk of Astra production from the UK to Germany.
They have a real problem though in the fact that the UK is the biggest market for Opel cars in the world.
Which is presumably why they spun the decision to move production out of the UK as a "We hope to keep producing cars in the UK" story
Of course, they want a Govt bung, just like the one Cable gave them in the autumn of 2012 when he flew to Detroit to sort a deal because GM wanted to close the plant eventhough we were in the fantastic single market and the stupendous customs union.
The decision to move the bulk of production to Germany has already been taken. Although they might want money from the UK government to keep the rest here.
Have you read the FT article? The first paragraph is that PSA is committed to making the next Astra in the UK.
Three quarters of the current model Astra is made in Liverpool with one quarter in Poland. The decision has been made to produce three quarters of the next model in Germany with the remainder still TBD. The hope is that the one quarter will made in Liverpool.
The bulk of production will therefore move from the UK to Germany.
So you have not read the article.
I read the article, but you didn't read my comment that explained the background to the article, hence your ill informed remark.
So provide the background where a senior exec at PSA is quoted as stating that the 75:25 split will reverse.
It seems the sheer power of optimism and belief has wished into existence a veritable money forest. Who now can fail to believe in the power of positive thinking?
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
Wonder if the cretins still believe it's going to hurt them more than us?
Depends how you define hurt.
IMNSHO if the EU continues to insist upon the backstop it will under our new leadership hurt the EU more than it hurts us, which wasn't the case under May. Which is why they should drop it.
How will it hurt them more?
A few ways, which is why I said it depends how you define it. On some measures it hurts us more, but on others it hurts them more and it depends upon priorities.
Irish border: They care passionately about this, which is what drove the backstop. They've been playing a game here insisting they're prepared to have no deal, to get a backstop, to avoid a potential no deal. If we simply don't care as much as they do about the Irish border, if we adopt a laissez-faire approach to this, then it will hurt them more. They're not getting what they want and they face an impossible dilemma.
1: Either the Irish are forced to erect a hard border, which they passionately don't want. 2: Or the EU are forced to develop alternative arrangements away from the border to keep the border open while respecting the integrity of the Single Market. This is exactly what Brexiteers have been demanding and what has been dismissed as a unicorn. 3: Or the EU compromises on the integrity of the Single Market in order to keep the Irish border open. Thus again giving us what we want but them not having what they want.
Either way whatever they choose the integrity of the UK is maintained, only the integrity of the EU is threatened. Ultimately the integrity of the UK may be threatened by a border poll, which itself arguably hurts Ireland more than England, but I think the odds of this are significantly overblown.
Financial settlement: We are due to pay them billions. We won't. Simple.
Benefits to costs: We Brexiteers view our freedom as beneficial. They [like Remainers] view Brexit as entirely harmful with no gain. So we may absorb any hurt with a stoic "no pain, no gain" attitude but any hurt to them brings no benefits whatsoever.
The big difference between you and me is that I already feel free. I do not regard myself, my family, my friends, work colleagues or country as oppressed victims. We have agency.
The hard border surrounding the UK that No Deal will create will substantially restrict our current freedoms to trade, move capital and travel. While No Deal also means no FTAs with our biggest export markets and the loss of current access to dozens more. We will also be a poorer country, which will reduce our freedom to make choices.
At a time when I suspect polls tell us nothing, this one tells us loads: they're fucking useless.
It tells you how many people haven't been watching the news recently. With 36% don't knows that's a lot of votes available for anyone who has a clear, simple message. Of course, "no view" in this context might translate in to "sack the lot of them"
I reckon many, many people never watch the news, ever. How many don't knows would you get on a poll about Love Island? These people probably vote tribally, or maybe used to.
Comments
Irish border: They care passionately about this, which is what drove the backstop. They've been playing a game here insisting they're prepared to have no deal, to get a backstop, to avoid a potential no deal. If we simply don't care as much as they do about the Irish border, if we adopt a laissez-faire approach to this, then it will hurt them more. They're not getting what they want and they face an impossible dilemma.
1: Either the Irish are forced to erect a hard border, which they passionately don't want.
2: Or the EU are forced to develop alternative arrangements away from the border to keep the border open while respecting the integrity of the Single Market. This is exactly what Brexiteers have been demanding and what has been dismissed as a unicorn.
3: Or the EU compromises on the integrity of the Single Market in order to keep the Irish border open. Thus again giving us what we want but them not having what they want.
Either way whatever they choose the integrity of the UK is maintained, only the integrity of the EU is threatened. Ultimately the integrity of the UK may be threatened by a border poll, which itself arguably hurts Ireland more than England, but I think the odds of this are significantly overblown.
Financial settlement: We are due to pay them billions. We won't. Simple.
Benefits to costs: We Brexiteers view our freedom as beneficial. They [like Remainers] view Brexit as entirely harmful with no gain. So we may absorb any hurt with a stoic "no pain, no gain" attitude but any hurt to them brings no benefits whatsoever.
Now, he has to run a government with pressures from all sides, competing success criteria, a need to have a plan beyond October 31, and an opponent (the EU) that seems justified in its confidence that it can just wait for gravity to take its course.
In the past, Cummings has been pretty contemptuous of the civil service. Now he has the chance to show us he can run the machinery of government better. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
To me logically the EU should concede because what they are seeking [the backstop] they won't get in a no deal scenario anyway, so why spurn a compromise deal in order to get no deal?
Whereas what Brexiteers are seeking [control over our laws etc] we will gain in no deal and won't in the backstop, so we have less reason to concede.
17.4 million people decided we wanted Boris Johnson. That was enough for us all.
It doesn't look at all like he has been brought in to govern.
It looks like he is there solely to win an election against Corbyn in the next 6 months.
I couldn't name a single Love Island contestant. Never watched it.
I can't find it at the moment but this relates to the issue:
Nationalisation fever also appears to be infectious. Royal Bank of Scotland, you might assume, is not a powerful advert for the delights of state ownership but the country is apparently evenly split on whether all banks should be nationalised. There was even 27% support for nationalising airlines, as if the budget airline revolution never happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/01/jeremy-corbyn-nationalisation-plans-voters-tired-free-markets
We asked for the backstop. They reluctantly agreed.
Its the last honour he'll ever get. He's done Remainer May's bidding faithfully, if she doesn't honour him nobody else ever will.
I don't seem to recall Boris ever asking for the backstop.
Therein lies your problem.
You meant “She”.
A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1155591443551064064
Anyway, it seems clear that your "Approximately 20% want to nationalise everything" was somewhat overstating the case. EDIT: Just seen you latest update, Looks like I was being unfair, there.
I'm not surprised that 20% or more want to see more nationalisation though... there are plenty who are not seeing much benefit from the free market approach to the economy.
According to a recent poll published by The Times (in association with the Legatum Institute, conducted by Populus), 23% of Brits support the nationalisation of Travel Agents
23% travel agents
24% car manufacturing
27% airlines
33% mobile phone network
35% food
https://insideflyer.co.uk/2017/10/23-brits-want-nationalise-travel-agents/
The bulk of production will therefore move from the UK to Germany.
Plus one don't care.
There was a Grauniad puff-piece over the weekend about how LI was gripping the nation with peak viewing figures of 6 million... or less than 1 in 10; I suspect >90% are don't knows really.
I also couldn't name a single person who's been on Love Island. Sounds like we need a Venn diagram...
Boris Blows Billions.
Like they all said they would leave the country if Boris became mayor of London. Never fucking deliver on their promises.
So its easy to see why they might support radical change to the economy.
There will also be people who suspect they are being ripped off by businesses and think they would get things 20% cheaper if there were no shareholders and profits.
I think that the ability to change utility / insurance etc suppliers has encouraged that second view because if you don't annually change your suppliers you can be ripped off. Of course before you could easily compare prices and change your suppliers you had little idea if you were being ripped off or not and little ability to do anything about it if you were.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1155534197710295040
He needs to STFU and stop peddling this care for the Union guff . If he cared about the UK he’d not have been the architect of Brexit .
I voted for Greg and Amber to win.
A peerage is a different kettle of fish, even if latitude is granted with honours given while the PM resigns, raising someone to the legislature is pretty substantial. Boris Blows Billions Badly?
The hard border surrounding the UK that No Deal will create will substantially restrict our current freedoms to trade, move capital and travel. While No Deal also means no FTAs with our biggest export markets and the loss of current access to dozens more. We will also be a poorer country, which will reduce our freedom to make choices.