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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast. So Boris Johnson is PM. What

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast. So Boris Johnson is PM. What now?

On this week’s podcast, Keiran Pedley and Leo Barasi look back at a momentous week in British politics and ask what happens next?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    First. Like Christ alone knows. Could be Caroline Lucas for all I know.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Bursting Boris's Bubble!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    FPT
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My problem with Corbyn was well-established long before he became leader and has little to do with his policies. It has to do with his character, his association with anti-semites and men of violence, his default instincts which seem to be to be illiberal and not democratic and the particular strand of the hard left he comes from and has spent all his political life in.

    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My problem with Corbyn was well-established long before he became leader and has little to do with his policies. It has to do with his character, his association with anti-semites and men of violence, his default instincts which seem to be to be illiberal and not democratic and the particular strand of the hard left he comes from and has spent all his political life in.

    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    I was always against ID cards when proposed 10 - 20 years ago! How about you?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Quite a contrast to the Hartlepool result. Almost any result is possible. Anywhere.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    dixiedean said:

    Quite a contrast to the Hartlepool result. Almost any result is possible. Anywhere.
    Lib Dem did not stand in Hartlepool so no surge possible ;)
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My problem with Corbyn was well-established long before he became leader and has little to do with his policies. It has to do with his character, his association with anti-semites and men of violence, his default instincts which seem to be to be illiberal and not democratic and the particular strand of the hard left he comes from and has spent all his political life in.

    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    I was always against ID cards when proposed 10 - 20 years ago! How about you?
    Against, not sure if the timing lines up but I did vote Lib Dem in 2005, mainly Iraq war but I.D. might have been a very small part of it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Precious little evidence of the "Boris Bounce" in any of the 3 results tonight.
  • madmacsmadmacs Posts: 75
    Lib Dem surge did help in Gloucester but backed up by really hard work by people from across the County. Podsmead result especially good as no candidate last time. Being honest helped by Brexit Party standing
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Meet Carrie Symonds, The Most-Watched Woman In Westminster"

    https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/who-is-carrie-symonds
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    dixiedean said:

    Quite a contrast to the Hartlepool result. Almost any result is possible. Anywhere.
    Lib Dem did not stand in Hartlepool so no surge possible ;)
    And even there the most leave candidate won
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    madmacs said:

    Lib Dem surge did help in Gloucester but backed up by really hard work by people from across the County. Podsmead result especially good as no candidate last time. Being honest helped by Brexit Party standing


    Which is why No one would want to rush into an election - Boris needs Farage to stand down, the other parties need Farage in full on “you failed to leave on October 31st” mode
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    If I was accustomed to giving credence to such arguments, I'd point out that Putin will presumably be unutterably furious at Johnson's elevation, but would be delighted should he be replaced by your friend from Islington.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Boris Johnson’s attempts to lock in the support of hardline Tory Eurosceptics suffered a serious blow last night after one of the most senior Brexiteer MPs angrily turned down a ministerial role.

    In the first rift between the new prime minister and the faction that backed him for the leadership, Steve Baker told Mr Johnson that a job in the Brexit department would have left him “powerless”.

    Tory Eurosceptics accused Mr Johnson of “binning off” the European Research Group of Brexiteers now that he was in power. They blamed Dominic Cummings, the former head of Vote Leave, who has been appointed the most senior adviser in Downing Street.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-right-s-anger-over-dominic-cummings-job-as-senior-aide-to-johnson-75k5m69n9
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    A Swinson Sandal Surge in Gloucester.

    They'll be at the gates of Auchentennach Castle by the autumn .... :worried:
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    If I was accustomed to giving credence to such arguments, I'd point out that Putin will presumably be unutterably furious at Johnson's elevation, but would be delighted should he be replaced by your friend from Islington.
    You'd be in error if you thought so...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism

    This is before we get into Putin's support for Brexit.

    They have all the same friends as well, Bannon, Trump etc.

    Putin's man is in Downing Street.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    If I was accustomed to giving credence to such arguments, I'd point out that Putin will presumably be unutterably furious at Johnson's elevation, but would be delighted should he be replaced by your friend from Islington.
    On what is your presumption based?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    JackW said:

    A Swinson Sandal Surge in Gloucester.

    They'll be at the gates of Auchentennach Castle by the autumn .... :worried:

    There'll be pies a-plenty by winter.....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    If I was accustomed to giving credence to such arguments, I'd point out that Putin will presumably be unutterably furious at Johnson's elevation, but would be delighted should he be replaced by your friend from Islington.
    Putin is no doubt very happy with Boris Johnson’s elevation too. I have no idea why you might think otherwise.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2019
    Scott_P said:


    Tory Eurosceptics accused Mr Johnson of “binning off” the European Research Group of Brexiteers now that he was in power. They blamed Dominic Cummings, the former head of Vote Leave, who has been appointed the most senior adviser in Downing Street.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-right-s-anger-over-dominic-cummings-job-as-senior-aide-to-johnson-75k5m69n9

    Heart of stone, etc. Yet again the self-styled most sophisticated electorate in the world has made a complete cods of choosing its leader. The ERG should take it up with the 1922 if its election procedure with (apparently voluntary) debates and hustings failed to reveal candidates' true positions on the burning issues of the day.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    A Swinson Sandal Surge in Gloucester.

    They'll be at the gates of Auchentennach Castle by the autumn .... :worried:

    There'll be pies a-plenty by winter.....
    Every cloud has a silver lining .... :naughty:
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    I’ll be interested to hear @ydoethur ‘s take on the two Gloucester results.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459
    An interesting result for those who say LDs cant win Rees Moggs seat.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    I was really busy yesterday and have only just caught up with @Cyclefree’s thread header. What a truly superb piece of writing. This site is fortunate to have her and Alastair’s contributions.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    dixiedean said:

    Quite a contrast to the Hartlepool result. Almost any result is possible. Anywhere.
    LibDems didn't stand in Hartlepool where the situation was unique and bizarre. Read about it in Britain Elects.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Jeepers!

    Podsmead (Gloucester) result:
    LDEM: 30.0% (+30.0)
    CON: 29.6% (-18.5)
    LAB: 18.0% (-33.9)
    BREX: 16.4% (+16.4)
    GRN: 4.3% (+4.3)
    UKIP: 1.6% (+1.6)

    Liberal Democrat GAIN from Labour

    I see a Swinson surge, but where is the Honeymoon BJ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My problem with Corbyn was well-established long before he became leader and has little to do with his policies. It has to do with his character, his association with anti-semites and men of violence, his default instincts which seem to be to be illiberal and not democratic and the particular strand of the hard left he comes from and has spent all his political life in.

    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. P, interesting tweet, if accurate (loss of Grayling, very pro-leave and pro-Boris, indicates it might be). If Boris can't even get the hardliners behind him, he's got half a faction.

    Difficult to oust a PM. Not so hard to undermine one.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    I’ll have to try that.

    Seriously I am not having any problems on my iPhone.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Jeepers!

    Podsmead (Gloucester) result:
    LDEM: 30.0% (+30.0)
    CON: 29.6% (-18.5)
    LAB: 18.0% (-33.9)
    BREX: 16.4% (+16.4)
    GRN: 4.3% (+4.3)
    UKIP: 1.6% (+1.6)

    Liberal Democrat GAIN from Labour

    I see a Swinson surge, but where is the Honeymoon BJ?
    Well, Boris told us to be optimistic!
    So, a 19% drop isn't as bad as Labour's 34% drop ;-)
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
    If he was authoritarian in internal party affairs we would have far less problems and he would have actually got rid of his enemies, rather than let them run amok. Whilst I am attracted by the anti authoritarian streak it can go too far in terms of party management.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
    If he was authoritarian in internal party affairs we would have far less problems and he would have actually got rid of his enemies, rather than let them run amok. Whilst I am attracted by the anti authoritarian streak it can go too far in terms of party management.
    Do you mean like anti semites?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Scott_P said:


    Tory Eurosceptics accused Mr Johnson of “binning off” the European Research Group of Brexiteers now that he was in power. They blamed Dominic Cummings, the former head of Vote Leave, who has been appointed the most senior adviser in Downing Street.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-right-s-anger-over-dominic-cummings-job-as-senior-aide-to-johnson-75k5m69n9

    Heart of stone, etc. Yet again the self-styled most sophisticated electorate in the world has made a complete cods of choosing its leader. The ERG should take it up with the 1922 if its election procedure with (apparently voluntary) debates and hustings failed to reveal candidates' true positions on the burning issues of the day.
    Short of the sacking of Berlin and the tearing down of Strasbourg there’s no deal with the EU the ultras in the ERG would ever vote for that Boris could reach.

    Even if the backstop is scrapped wholesale, it will be something else.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    A Left leader who had strongly redistributive policies (a wealth tax, say, or high taxes to pay for public spending) but who does not come from the SWP strand that Corbyn seems to and who was effective in holding a government to account would be much better than an ineffectual moderate. So I voted for Neil Kinnock, who came from the Left. I would have voted for John Smith.

    That is quite convincing. I'm buying it, I think. Yes - bought.

    But I bet you have moved to the right since you voted for Kinnock - i.e. you are comparing apples (you 30 years ago) to pears (you today). As it were.
    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
    If he was authoritarian in internal party affairs we would have far less problems and he would have actually got rid of his enemies, rather than let them run amok. Whilst I am attracted by the anti authoritarian streak it can go too far in terms of party management.
    Ok perhaps, just perhaps, if you are going to try and welcome anti-authoritarian ideology you might start by not describing people in your party you disagree with as enemies.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. P, interesting tweet, if accurate (loss of Grayling, very pro-leave and pro-Boris, indicates it might be). If Boris can't even get the hardliners behind him, he's got half a faction.

    Difficult to oust a PM. Not so hard to undermine one.

    We know he doesn’t have the votes to get the (or his) WA through the HoC. So it looks like he’ll either play Russian roulette with Parliament, or go for a GE if forced.

    There’s talk of these magical 40 Labour MPs who might somehow vote it through. They won’t materialise.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
    If he was authoritarian in internal party affairs we would have far less problems and he would have actually got rid of his enemies, rather than let them run amok. Whilst I am attracted by the anti authoritarian streak it can go too far in terms of party management.
    Do you mean like anti semites?
    He'd certainly press far harder on the previous anti semitic statement by Alastair Campbell for example, fairly valid way to go. The party has permanently expelled a supporter (and someone who did good work in regards to Stephen Lawrence) for something many on PB (not known as a Corbyn supporting place) said wasn't anti semitic.

    What kind of authoritarian won't even press pretty valid claims against their enemies when they press lesser ones against them?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. P, interesting tweet, if accurate (loss of Grayling, very pro-leave and pro-Boris, indicates it might be). If Boris can't even get the hardliners behind him, he's got half a faction.

    Difficult to oust a PM. Not so hard to undermine one.

    We know he doesn’t have the votes to get the (or his) WA through the HoC. So it looks like he’ll either play Russian roulette with Parliament, or go for a GE if forced.

    There’s talk of these magical 40 Labour MPs who might somehow vote it through. They won’t materialise.
    4, maybe.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    Are you at work and using a badly-configured proxy? If so, speak to your IT support team? It sounds like you may have cached bad or stale content but you've already tried several browsers so a caching proxy might be the next step. That said, you could try clearing your browser caches.

    And in case it is a DNS issue, on Firefox, configure DNS over HTTPS but don't tell the government!
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-enable-dns-over-https-doh-in-firefox/

    Is pb OK if accessed on, say, your phone or tablet, assuming they use mobile data rather than just the same wifi network?

    Otherwise wait for someone who knows what they are talking about to come along.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    How dare I label the likes of Tommy Robinson and Anne Marie Waters as far right...

    Chloe is simply supporting good thatcherite types.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    DavidL said:

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    I’ll have to try that.

    Seriously I am not having any problems on my iPhone.
    Yes, it does solve a little problem called ScottP. It’d be nice to have a Scott-free web browser.

    Occasionally he posts good Twitter links, like one out of every hundred. If I wanted to read Twitter I’d.. er.. go to Twitter.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    Are you at work and using a badly-configured proxy? If so, speak to your IT support team? It sounds like you may have cached bad or stale content but you've already tried several browsers so a caching proxy might be the next step. That said, you could try clearing your browser caches.

    And in case it is a DNS issue, on Firefox, configure DNS over HTTPS but don't tell the government!
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-enable-dns-over-https-doh-in-firefox/

    Is pb OK if accessed on, say, your phone or tablet, assuming they use mobile data rather than just the same wifi network?

    Otherwise wait for someone who knows what they are talking about to come along.
    I've got something similar here, not working in Chrome, although Firefox is OK. Been this way for a week or two.

    I can still see the embedded tweets in Firefox, though.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    Are you at work and using a badly-configured proxy? If so, speak to your IT support team? It sounds like you may have cached bad or stale content but you've already tried several browsers so a caching proxy might be the next step. That said, you could try clearing your browser caches.

    And in case it is a DNS issue, on Firefox, configure DNS over HTTPS but don't tell the government!
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-enable-dns-over-https-doh-in-firefox/

    Is pb OK if accessed on, say, your phone or tablet, assuming they use mobile data rather than just the same wifi network?

    Otherwise wait for someone who knows what they are talking about to come along.
    Thanks John! Duly saved your post. I’ll fiddle about later. Concur that it is probably a cache problem, but that doesn’t explain probs in brand spanking new browser installations that I have not used in years.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD might want to note that even if the Tories had been able to get all the Brexit Party votes behind them they'd have still lost to the Lib Dems. It might well be that delivering Brexit might be just as harmful to the Conservatives as it would be to business.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136

    I've got something similar here, not working in Chrome, although Firefox is OK. Been this way for a week or two.

    I can still see the embedded tweets in Firefox, though.

    These are the errors I'm getting - apparently Chrome is applying a content security policy and thinks it's not allowed to load the iframe from vanilla, but I can't see anything in the headers or the source code that sets that, so I guess it's just a setting that Chrome made up.

    https://pastebin.com/zxAf0p1h
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,098
    Not sure where Swinson is going to end up.

    The first speech as leader was very shouty about "inclusive", but she did seem to exclude a lot of people. Very tribal.

    And she has a bit of a history of going Missing in Action when awkward questions arise - not possible for a leader.

    And of course Layla Moran is still in post.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Jeepers!

    Podsmead (Gloucester) result:
    LDEM: 30.0% (+30.0)
    CON: 29.6% (-18.5)
    LAB: 18.0% (-33.9)
    BREX: 16.4% (+16.4)
    GRN: 4.3% (+4.3)
    UKIP: 1.6% (+1.6)

    Liberal Democrat GAIN from Labour

    I see a Swinson surge, but where is the Honeymoon BJ?
    Well, Boris told us to be optimistic!
    So, a 19% drop isn't as bad as Labour's 34% drop ;-)
    A three-vote margin saw the Libs home.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:



    To the right on some things - economic competence matters to me. But to the left on others - I have become much more socially liberal, much greener - and I dislike the move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
    If he was authoritarian in internal party affairs we would have far less problems and he would have actually got rid of his enemies, rather than let them run amok. Whilst I am attracted by the anti authoritarian streak it can go too far in terms of party management.
    Ok perhaps, just perhaps, if you are going to try and welcome anti-authoritarian ideology you might start by not describing people in your party you disagree with as enemies.
    I can understand not liking the term traitor for example and I would rather papers didn't brand people traitors on their front pages but someone using the term x's enemy to denote a politicians opponents in a non ranty post seems fairly bland. Talking of Boris enemies for example wouldn't be my way of saying those people are bad, just that those people oppose Boris and want to work against him / stop him.




  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    I’ll have to try that.

    Seriously I am not having any problems on my iPhone.
    Yes, it does solve a little problem called ScottP. It’d be nice to have a Scott-free web browser.

    Occasionally he posts good Twitter links, like one out of every hundred. If I wanted to read Twitter I’d.. er.. go to Twitter.
    I find it curious that he thinks a point is better made by having someone else say it. Occasionally the fact that that particular person has said it has political implications and is significant but usually not. I would welcome more of his own thoughts.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    I find that all vanilla problems sort themselves out after a week or two. I think like many other things they are aware that they get bugs from time to time and so far I have found that they are fixed in relatively short order.

    And as for politics and the by elections last night as we were discussing yesterday anyone can go from anywhere to anywhere.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    TOPPING said:

    I find that all vanilla problems sort themselves out after a week or two. I think like many other things they are aware that they get bugs from time to time and so far I have found that they are fixed in relatively short order.

    And as for politics and the by elections last night as we were discussing yesterday anyone can go from anywhere to anywhere.

    Unfortunately they also have a habit of recurring.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    So is the tweet attributed to her a fake?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    I’ll be interested to hear @ydoethur ‘s take on the two Gloucester results.

    Superb results for the Liberal Democrats, in an area where they've never been especially strong. To put it in context, no Liberal has won Gloucester since 1906.

    On these results, you would have to bet on them retaking Cheltenham in an imminent election. But I would also have said there's a chance of taking Stroud (where the Labour MP is carefully annoying everyone and throwing away his crucial personal vote) and of at least coming second in Gloucester itself. I think Forest and Tewkesbury (which are much more Brexity) would be beyond them. But they're clearly overtaking Labour as the main opposition in Gloucestershire.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:



    To the right on some things - economic competehe move to a 19th century sort of economy (insecurity at the bottom, tremendous wealth at the top and a disdain for people outside one’s immediate circle). I am very keen on freedom of speech / civil rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc: traditional liberal causes, which do not seem to me to be much supported by the left. Loathe ID cards. And I do believe in communities, the nation, society. I have a healthy scepticism of the state, any sort of power really. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No idea where that puts me on the spectrum. But feel quite disgusted by both main parties currently.

    Anyway having successfully managed to sell something to an ex-investment banker (even one from Lehmans!) it’s time for bed. 31degrees here at midnight!
    New Labour were very authoritarian but it was the left that opposed many of Blairs anti civil liberty measures, it is where many of Corbyn's much criticised rebellions come from.

    It is one thing that attracted me to the Labour left, less of an authoritarian view and more respect for civil liberties.
    As an outsider it would appear that the Corbyn gang are against anyone else being authoritarian, but are very happy to be authoritarian themselves, as shown by their handling of disagreements and complaints within the party. In other words your typical hypocritical bullies.
    If he was authoritarian in internal party affairs we would have far less problems and he would have actually got rid of his enemies, rather than let them run amok. Whilst I am attracted by the anti authoritarian streak it can go too far in terms of party management.
    Ok perhaps, just perhaps, if you are going to try and welcome anti-authoritarian ideology you might start by not describing people in your party you disagree with as enemies.
    I can understand not liking the term traitor for example and I would rather papers didn't brand people traitors on their front pages but someone using the term x's enemy to denote a politicians opponents in a non ranty post seems fairly bland. Talking of Boris enemies for example wouldn't be my way of saying those people are bad, just that those people oppose Boris and want to work against him / stop him.

    It's always been the case that in the HoC for PMs the opposition is in front of you and the enemy behind you.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    Isn't it pretty much the entire basis for the Corbyn anti semitism stuff?

    I don't know that you've been much involved in that yourself but you can hardly complain about these tactics being used back against the Conservatives...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD might want to note that even if the Tories had been able to get all the Brexit Party votes behind them they'd have still lost to the Lib Dems. It might well be that delivering Brexit might be just as harmful to the Conservatives as it would be to business.
    The Tories are in full three monkeys mode: see no Tory Remainers, hear no Tory Remainers, speak no Tory Remainers.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,468
    Re problems using web site I assumed it was my computer as I had no problems with my phone. For a period of 2 weeks I found it very difficult to load comments. Using Firefox.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    The Spectator is a product by spotty student politicos, for spotty student politicos. (Of all ages.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Streeter said:

    Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    If I was accustomed to giving credence to such arguments, I'd point out that Putin will presumably be unutterably furious at Johnson's elevation, but would be delighted should he be replaced by your friend from Islington.
    On what is your presumption based?
    Although Putin has drawn on his experience in the KGB to restore elements of the Soviet era authoritarianism, his approach is better styled as moving toward right-wing dictatorship in the style of Mussolini, backed by crony oligarchs. The book “The Future is History” is recommended for understanding how this came to pass.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    Brexit has made the Spectator a supermarket tabloid for affluent reactionaries. In fairness, that’s a very profitable niche.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    The accusation wasn't that she was far right but that she was liking thr activity of the far right.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    So is the tweet attributed to her a fake?
    The original is not, no. The retweet is trying to dogwhistle her as a racist.

    That’s the smear.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    HYUFD might want to note that even if the Tories had been able to get all the Brexit Party votes behind them they'd have still lost to the Lib Dems. It might well be that delivering Brexit might be just as harmful to the Conservatives as it would be to business.
    The Tories are in full three monkeys mode: see no Tory Remainers, hear no Tory Remainers, speak no Tory Remainers.
    In Brecon the LibDems are said to be finding an 85% correlation between 2016 referendum vote and by-election voting intention. What was a big slice of Tory remainers has shifted away, as we are seeing on PB.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    ydoethur said:

    I’ll be interested to hear @ydoethur ‘s take on the two Gloucester results.

    Superb results for the Liberal Democrats, in an area where they've never been especially strong. To put it in context, no Liberal has won Gloucester since 1906.

    On these results, you would have to bet on them retaking Cheltenham in an imminent election. But I would also have said there's a chance of taking Stroud (where the Labour MP is carefully annoying everyone and throwing away his crucial personal vote) and of at least coming second in Gloucester itself. I think Forest and Tewkesbury (which are much more Brexity) would be beyond them. But they're clearly overtaking Labour as the main opposition in Gloucestershire.
    The seat I forgot in that post is Cotswold, where the Liberal Democrats are well-organised and have just taken the local council (admittedly due mostly to council issues). If they really get their tails up, that probably should be another target.

    Before 2005, Labour held three seats in Gloucestershire and the Yellows one. In 2015 the Tories had a clean sweep. We could see a major surge reduce them to two, but Labour not benefitting.

    That's arguably a microcosm of Labour's problem countrywide. People are understandably fed up with the government, but not turning to the Opposition as an alternative.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    Brexit has made the Spectator a supermarket tabloid for affluent reactionaries. In fairness, that’s a very profitable niche.
    It contains some very useful and insightful writing, some of which goes against the editorial line like Matthew Paris, for example.

    It’s the likes of James Forsyth and Fraser Nelson who are starting to disappoint me.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD might want to note that even if the Tories had been able to get all the Brexit Party votes behind them they'd have still lost to the Lib Dems. It might well be that delivering Brexit might be just as harmful to the Conservatives as it would be to business.
    The Tories are in full three monkeys mode: see no Tory Remainers, hear no Tory Remainers, speak no Tory Remainers.
    In Brecon the LibDems are said to be finding an 85% correlation between 2016 referendum vote and by-election voting intention. What was a big slice of Tory remainers has shifted away, as we are seeing on PB.
    What does the current Conservative party offer Conservative Remainers other than Stockholm syndrome?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    https://twitter.com/MyArrse/status/1154464090141556737

    Although crimes of the father an all that.... I think it just weakens an already weak attack, although I wonder if any of them really need to mean anything or have much factual basis...

    The clown just needs to make them laugh and cheer, facts and consistency just get in the way.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    malcolmg said:
    I assure you Gloucester isn't a fantasy Malcolm, I lived there for several years.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,182
    ydoethur said:

    I’ll be interested to hear @ydoethur ‘s take on the two Gloucester results.

    Superb results for the Liberal Democrats, in an area where they've never been especially strong. To put it in context, no Liberal has won Gloucester since 1906.

    On these results, you would have to bet on them retaking Cheltenham in an imminent election. But I would also have said there's a chance of taking Stroud (where the Labour MP is carefully annoying everyone and throwing away his crucial personal vote) and of at least coming second in Gloucester itself. I think Forest and Tewkesbury (which are much more Brexity) would be beyond them. But they're clearly overtaking Labour as the main opposition in Gloucestershire.
    I would also note Coteswold as a possible long shot gain, given the local results
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    Isn't it pretty much the entire basis for the Corbyn anti semitism stuff?

    I don't know that you've been much involved in that yourself but you can hardly complain about these tactics being used back against the Conservatives...
    No, there’s enough evidence internally and externally that there is a problem with anti-Semitic attitudes in Corbyn’s Labour now. And it needs to be addressed.

    However, all sides use these tactics now.

    They work.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I've got something similar here, not working in Chrome, although Firefox is OK. Been this way for a week or two.

    I can still see the embedded tweets in Firefox, though.

    These are the errors I'm getting - apparently Chrome is applying a content security policy and thinks it's not allowed to load the iframe from vanilla, but I can't see anything in the headers or the source code that sets that, so I guess it's just a setting that Chrome made up.

    https://pastebin.com/zxAf0p1h
    Is your browser up to date? I use chrome for pb and have not observed this problem. A 10-seconds check of your pastebin did not tell me anything but then I'm not a web developer. Are you going via vanilla rather than direct to pb? It is vaguely interesting its problem appeared to be loading https content into http.

    Hmm. Just noticed I get this: The source list for Content Security Policy directive 'frame-ancestors' contains an invalid source: '*politicalbetting.com'. It will be ignored. Maybe that is why I do not share your problem!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    HYUFD might want to note that even if the Tories had been able to get all the Brexit Party votes behind them they'd have still lost to the Lib Dems. It might well be that delivering Brexit might be just as harmful to the Conservatives as it would be to business.
    The intriguing thing is that one in ten voters thought that the Brexit Party was the one that would best fix their pot-holes.... They must think the arm of the EU very long indeed.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. P, interesting tweet, if accurate (loss of Grayling, very pro-leave and pro-Boris, indicates it might be). If Boris can't even get the hardliners behind him, he's got half a faction.

    Difficult to oust a PM. Not so hard to undermine one.

    We know he doesn’t have the votes to get the (or his) WA through the HoC. So it looks like he’ll either play Russian roulette with Parliament, or go for a GE if forced.

    There’s talk of these magical 40 Labour MPs who might somehow vote it through. They won’t materialise.

    Any Labour MPs voting with Johnson would almost certainly be voting to end their political careers. A few are standing down at the next GE, though, so he could get those. Hoey is a given.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    Brexit has made the Spectator a supermarket tabloid for affluent reactionaries. In fairness, that’s a very profitable niche.
    It contains some very useful and insightful writing, some of which goes against the editorial line like Matthew Paris, for example.

    It’s the likes of James Forsyth and Fraser Nelson who are starting to disappoint me.
    Fraser Nelson is the editor. My particular favourite of his was when he averred that the Brexit party is not a populist party.

    He is, so far as I know, the only person to have blocked me on Twitter.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    AndyJS said:

    "Meet Carrie Symonds, The Most-Watched Woman In Westminster"

    https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/who-is-carrie-symonds

    Usual Horses arses faced Tory. Far too much inbreeding down there.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I find that all vanilla problems sort themselves out after a week or two. I think like many other things they are aware that they get bugs from time to time and so far I have found that they are fixed in relatively short order.

    And as for politics and the by elections last night as we were discussing yesterday anyone can go from anywhere to anywhere.

    Unfortunately they also have a habit of recurring.
    What, the LibDems?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I’ll be interested to hear @ydoethur ‘s take on the two Gloucester results.

    Superb results for the Liberal Democrats, in an area where they've never been especially strong. To put it in context, no Liberal has won Gloucester since 1906.

    On these results, you would have to bet on them retaking Cheltenham in an imminent election. But I would also have said there's a chance of taking Stroud (where the Labour MP is carefully annoying everyone and throwing away his crucial personal vote) and of at least coming second in Gloucester itself. I think Forest and Tewkesbury (which are much more Brexity) would be beyond them. But they're clearly overtaking Labour as the main opposition in Gloucestershire.
    The seat I forgot in that post is Cotswold, where the Liberal Democrats are well-organised and have just taken the local council (admittedly due mostly to council issues). If they really get their tails up, that probably should be another target.

    Before 2005, Labour held three seats in Gloucestershire and the Yellows one. In 2015 the Tories had a clean sweep. We could see a major surge reduce them to two, but Labour not benefitting.

    That's arguably a microcosm of Labour's problem countrywide. People are understandably fed up with the government, but not turning to the Opposition as an alternative.
    Cotswold is the type of seat where the LibDems should now be odds-on, assuming a GE in current climate.

    Being a leave area doesn’t seem to be that much of an obstacle - at least for local elections. Podsmead Gloucester is said to be 2:1 leave, and we have seen recent local by-election wins in extremely leave areas like Bridlington and Daventry.

    Quite possibly a lot of Leave “voters” aren’t voters at all?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    The Spectator is a product by spotty student politicos, for spotty student politicos. (Of all ages.)

    After three years of stern austerity, the spotty student right is now fully in charge of the former Conservative and Unionist Party.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    Brexit has made the Spectator a supermarket tabloid for affluent reactionaries. In fairness, that’s a very profitable niche.
    It contains some very useful and insightful writing, some of which goes against the editorial line like Matthew Paris, for example.

    It’s the likes of James Forsyth and Fraser Nelson who are starting to disappoint me.

    Fraser Nelson could be a no deal Brexit bot and we wouldn’t notice any difference.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Meet Carrie Symonds, The Most-Watched Woman In Westminster"

    https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/who-is-carrie-symonds

    Usual Horses arses faced Tory. Far too much inbreeding down there.
    Scots were only rescued from such by dint of passing Vikings injecting their genes into the pool.
  • mr-claypolemr-claypole Posts: 217

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    Brexit has made the Spectator a supermarket tabloid for affluent reactionaries. In fairness, that’s a very profitable niche.
    It is unrecognisable from its past self- ironically BJ was a very good editor as he allowed a very broad church but under Nelson it has drunk all the kool aid. I had to cancel it after a 20 year plus subscription.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    The accusation wasn't that she was far right but that she was liking thr activity of the far right.
    But, you know, wink wink.. nudge nudge...

    This was three years ago. Chloe might have been making a free speech point, applauding her bravery for publishing something contentious, and getting into the public domain to start a debate, or she might have been commenting on one of her political campaigns but not others. And she might not have been aware of how far AMW would go (she ended up being kicked out of UKIP a year later).

    Three years ago (pre referendum) I was still defending Nigel Farage, Andrew Lilico and Jacob Rees-Mogg, and Daniel Hannan was one of my heroes.

    As you can imagine I feel rather silly about some of that now.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IanB2 said:

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    Brexit has made the Spectator a supermarket tabloid for affluent reactionaries. In fairness, that’s a very profitable niche.
    It contains some very useful and insightful writing, some of which goes against the editorial line like Matthew Paris, for example.

    It’s the likes of James Forsyth and Fraser Nelson who are starting to disappoint me.

    Fraser Nelson could be a no deal Brexit bot and we wouldn’t notice any difference.
    Nelson is one of those promising young men who turned out to be a big flop in middle age. The planet is jam-packed full of them.

    Personally, I’m aging like a fine Bordeaux. Peak Stuart is a long way off.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    So is the tweet attributed to her a fake?
    The original is not, no. The retweet is trying to dogwhistle her as a racist.

    That’s the smear.
    Just for reference do you mean this part tweeted by Otto English?

    'In 2016 Boris Johnson's new digital adviser Chloe Westley enthusiastically backed renowned racist Ann Marie Waters who had just set up Pergida UK with one Tommy Robinson.

    I see Westley has been deleting old tweets including this.'

    Which part of that is untrue?

    She is Boris Johnson's new digital advisor
    She tweeted that in 2016
    Calling someone a hero = enthusiastic backing
    That Anne Marie Waters is a racist
    That she had just set up Pergida UK with Tommy Robinson

    Or that Chloe deleted it?



  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I’ll be interested to hear @ydoethur ‘s take on the two Gloucester results.

    Superb results for the Liberal Democrats, in an area where they've never been especially strong. To put it in context, no Liberal has won Gloucester since 1906.

    On these results, you would have to bet on them retaking Cheltenham in an imminent election. But I would also have said there's a chance of taking Stroud (where the Labour MP is carefully annoying everyone and throwing away his crucial personal vote) and of at least coming second in Gloucester itself. I think Forest and Tewkesbury (which are much more Brexity) would be beyond them. But they're clearly overtaking Labour as the main opposition in Gloucestershire.
    The seat I forgot in that post is Cotswold, where the Liberal Democrats are well-organised and have just taken the local council (admittedly due mostly to council issues). If they really get their tails up, that probably should be another target.

    Before 2005, Labour held three seats in Gloucestershire and the Yellows one. In 2015 the Tories had a clean sweep. We could see a major surge reduce them to two, but Labour not benefitting.

    That's arguably a microcosm of Labour's problem countrywide. People are understandably fed up with the government, but not turning to the Opposition as an alternative.
    Cotswold is the type of seat where the LibDems should now be odds-on, assuming a GE in current climate.

    Being a leave area doesn’t seem to be that much of an obstacle - at least for local elections. Podsmead Gloucester is said to be 2:1 leave, and we have seen recent local by-election wins in extremely leave areas like Bridlington and Daventry.

    Quite possibly a lot of Leave “voters” aren’t voters at all?
    I'd hesitate before saying 'odds on.' I think the internal dynamics of the Cotswold District Council election flattered the Liberal Democrats somewhat. All other considerations aside, the housing market is dominated by wealthy people commuting to London.

    At the same time, it is an area where there is now an activist base and a strong presence. The right candidate should have a chance if things develop as they have in the last twelve months.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I am having horrific problems with PB in nearly all web browsers, if Robert or anyone else can advise?

    In Safari there are no comments showing whatsoever. In various other browsers I can read comments, but not log in myself. Only place I’ve succeeded in logging in is Firefox, but it has various strange characteristics, including that images do not load, so for example all twitter posts just show as a bare link.

    I’ll have to try that.

    Seriously I am not having any problems on my iPhone.
    Yes, it does solve a little problem called ScottP. It’d be nice to have a Scott-free web browser.

    Occasionally he posts good Twitter links, like one out of every hundred. If I wanted to read Twitter I’d.. er.. go to Twitter.
    I find it curious that he thinks a point is better made by having someone else say it. Occasionally the fact that that particular person has said it has political implications and is significant but usually not. I would welcome more of his own thoughts.
    David, You would soon retract that I think
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    Isn't it pretty much the entire basis for the Corbyn anti semitism stuff?

    I don't know that you've been much involved in that yourself but you can hardly complain about these tactics being used back against the Conservatives...
    No, there’s enough evidence internally and externally that there is a problem with anti-Semitic attitudes in Corbyn’s Labour now. And it needs to be addressed.

    However, all sides use these tactics now.

    They work.
    Most polling seems to show a greater problem for the Conservatives, regardless of the attacks of the other side.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    I’m a regular subscriber to the Spectator.

    One of the most irritating things about the election of Boris is how the magazine has gone completely doolally for him. It’s like it’s an in-house journalistic mouthpiece devoted to his advocacy and has lost all objectivity.

    This is disappointing as I usually rely on it as a useful and sober perspective on conservative politics.

    I may now have to look elsewhere for that.

    The Spectator is a product by spotty student politicos, for spotty student politicos. (Of all ages.)

    After three years of stern austerity, the spotty student right is now fully in charge of the former Conservative and Unionist Party.

    The magazine isn’t actually like that actually, it’s really rather good, but the editorial lines have deteriorated and it’s starting to affect the political analysis.
  • malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Meet Carrie Symonds, The Most-Watched Woman In Westminster"

    https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/who-is-carrie-symonds

    Usual Horses arses faced Tory. Far too much inbreeding down there.
    You really are an unpleasant individual. What a nasty, unnecessary comment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1154438815395864578

    https://www.britainfirst.org/best_politically_incorrect_boris_quotes

    I figure it would be easier just to list the far right groups that don't like Boris... Just have to find one first.

    Chloe Westley isn’t far-right, she’s an Australian neo-Thatcherite.

    I know there’s no difference in the eyes of the Left but the fascist labelling and comparisons became very tiresome a long time ago.
    Isn't the whole point of that tweet providing the evidence that she's not just a neo-Thatcherite?
    No. The tweet is a smear.

    We see this all the time. Like when similar Conservatives are accused of being racist or fascist (or both) for appearing at a debate with the wrong sort of people. Personally, I think Chloe is too ideological but she’s not unpleasant and nor is she is a racist.

    If there’s prima facie evidence of her having wholly unpalatable views then let’s hear it.

    Until then it’s just a crude political attempt to damage the Government by reaching into the past and smearing her by association, which is being an institutional speciality of social media. Probably because it’s effective far too often.
    So is the tweet attributed to her a fake?
    The original is not, no. The retweet is trying to dogwhistle her as a racist.

    That’s the smear.
    Just for reference do you mean this part tweeted by Otto English?

    'In 2016 Boris Johnson's new digital adviser Chloe Westley enthusiastically backed renowned racist Ann Marie Waters who had just set up Pergida UK with one Tommy Robinson.

    I see Westley has been deleting old tweets including this.'

    Which part of that is untrue?

    She is Boris Johnson's new digital advisor
    She tweeted that in 2016
    Calling someone a hero = enthusiastic backing
    That Anne Marie Waters is a racist
    That she had just set up Pergida UK with Tommy Robinson

    Or that Chloe deleted it?
    It would be amusing to see Casino Royale defending racism among Boris' acolytes and The Jezziah attacking it - in an exact about turn of the discussions over THAT mural - if it wasn't just deeply depressing that this is what we have come to.
This discussion has been closed.