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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harris and Warrnen now dominate the WH2020 Democratic betting

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    stodge said:

    Roger said:

    OT Just seen the CH4 debate between Swinson and Davey. First time I've really seen Swinson. Liked them both. Great contrast to the trully horrible Tory obsessives. For Me Swinson just edged it. Slightly more presence and a Scottish accent is a big positive. I also liked the subtle choice of wearing yellow.

    When I saw them last Monday, I also thought they were both very good. Davey is the more "activist" of the two with a proven track record in SW London and he's more in the Ashdown/Farron mode - plenty of energy and speaks to the activists but that is limiting.

    Jo Swinson seems able to speak to the wider audience and would of course be the contrast to Johnson, Corbyn and even Farage. That's not a reason in and of itself for her to be Party leader of course but the LDs don't have the luxury of picking a leader that suits us but a leader likely to reach out to voters beyond the 20% (or 30%, or 10% or whatever).

    I'm not finding this an easy decision at all.
    Me neither, but it's a great difficult decision to have.
    Blimey, are there more Lib Dem members on PB than non-members?!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    Oi, don’t diss the Empire.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    Is Kamala Harris the new Andrea Leadsom?

    No, that could well be Tulsi Gabbard
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    Nigelb said:


    Details here:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/elizabeth-warren-kamala-harris-electability-poll_n_5d18ca8ae4b03d61163d2743

    Of course there will be a backlash/reaction, so Harris’s odds in particular are a bit short right now.

    Hadn't seen that - interesting, thanks.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    So the first conversation in the lift wasn’t the last time he spoke to Boris? Just to be clear?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    stodge said:

    Roger said:

    OT Just seen the CH4 debate between Swinson and Davey. First time I've really seen Swinson. Liked them both. Great contrast to the trully horrible Tory obsessives. For Me Swinson just edged it. Slightly more presence and a Scottish accent is a big positive. I also liked the subtle choice of wearing yellow.

    When I saw them last Monday, I also thought they were both very good. Davey is the more "activist" of the two with a proven track record in SW London and he's more in the Ashdown/Farron mode - plenty of energy and speaks to the activists but that is limiting.

    Jo Swinson seems able to speak to the wider audience and would of course be the contrast to Johnson, Corbyn and even Farage. That's not a reason in and of itself for her to be Party leader of course but the LDs don't have the luxury of picking a leader that suits us but a leader likely to reach out to voters beyond the 20% (or 30%, or 10% or whatever).

    I'm not finding this an easy decision at all.
    Me neither, but it's a great difficult decision to have.
    Blimey, are there more Lib Dem members on PB than non-members?!
    Even some of the ostensible Tories and Labour supporters on PB are basically LDs
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Scott_P said:
    Is it? I don’t see anything willy-waving about cheering the UK as a nation state disappearing down the plug hole in the event of No Deal.

    A Brexit that results in the dismemberment of our country isn’t one I could support.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited July 2019
    Oh well this is odd.

    Am posting to PB with Firefox where Vanilla embed is loading just fine but embed isn't loading with Google Chrome?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    DougSeal said:

    Is there a Betfair market on how many times HYUFD will use the term “diehard remainers” tonight?

    Diehard Remainers: (n.) Those people who want the Nakatomi Tower to remain in the EU.
    "President Tusk will not be joining us. For the rest of his life..."
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    What are they smoking over there at the Emirates?

    £40 million for Zaha?

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/01/arsenal-40m-approach-crystal-palace-wilfried-zaha

    I backed Palace on the handicaps when they somehow kept hold of Wilf last season. Not one of my more successful bets.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Time to check the value of my position...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
    Elizabeth Warren is a Senator from Massachusetts, about the most left liberal state in the US and is pitching to the cultural and economic left.

    Biden won 2 presidential elections with Obama and was re elected as Senator from Delaware in the 1980s even when Reagan and Bush Snr won the state
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    Is there a Betfair market on how many times HYUFD will use the term “diehard remainers” tonight?

    Diehard Remainers: (n.) Those people who want the Nakatomi Tower to remain in the EU.
    "President Tusk will not be joining us. For the rest of his life..."
    "Where..are...my...trade treaties?!"
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    kjohnw said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:
    I think the Tory party is dead - the only question is when it's death becomes obvious....
    The Tory party is not dead , it will adapt and survive as it always has , its sole purpose is winning elections and the pursuit of power . It will all change once brexit is delivered
    What is wrong with you people? Brexit does not 'end' once(if) we leave. This will dominate British politics for the next 20 years.
    Of course it won't. Our relationship with the continent will continue to be a big issue - as it has always been.
    There will be those of the view that no matter the end result, the Brexit will never be hard enough. There will be those who want to rejoin the EU. There will be those who want to rejoin EEA/The Single Market.

    People are kidding themselves if they think this all goes away.
    No country wants to join the EU unless they need the money.
    Source?
    Country?
    Scotland.
    An independent Scotland would require significant financial support. Whether it would get it is another question entirely.
    Absolute nonsense.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    What can we gonna do about it? Nowt, that's what.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    Yes indeed. Probably flattering, in a way, but truth is even if all of Hong Kong literally wanted to come back under our control we'd not be in a position to piss off the Chinese by pressing the issue.
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Roger said:

    OT Just seen the CH4 debate between Swinson and Davey. First time I've really seen Swinson. Liked them both. Great contrast to the trully horrible Tory obsessives. For Me Swinson just edged it. Slightly more presence and a Scottish accent is a big positive. I also liked the subtle choice of wearing yellow.

    When I saw them last Monday, I also thought they were both very good. Davey is the more "activist" of the two with a proven track record in SW London and he's more in the Ashdown/Farron mode - plenty of energy and speaks to the activists but that is limiting.

    Jo Swinson seems able to speak to the wider audience and would of course be the contrast to Johnson, Corbyn and even Farage. That's not a reason in and of itself for her to be Party leader of course but the LDs don't have the luxury of picking a leader that suits us but a leader likely to reach out to voters beyond the 20% (or 30%, or 10% or whatever).

    I'm not finding this an easy decision at all.
    Me neither, but it's a great difficult decision to have.
    Blimey, are there more Lib Dem members on PB than non-members?!
    Even some of the ostensible Tories and Labour supporters on PB are basically LDs
    Ostensible including those who actually vote for the parties in questions more often than 'real' Tories thesedays.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Oh, I agree. It is just that after Brexit, beggars cannot be choosers.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    What can we gonna do about it? Nowt, that's what.
    Err, well we can’t send in the Royal Navy if that’s what you thought I meant.

    We can robustly challenge China in private and underline our stance in public too to apply pressure, as the USA is doing, and leverage our soft power.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
    Elizabeth Warren is a Senator from Massachusetts, about the most left liberal state in the US and is pitching to the cultural and economic left.

    Biden won 2 presidential elections with Obama and was re elected as Senator from Delaware in the 1980s even when Reagan and Bush Snr won the state
    Biden is Senator for the left liberal state of Delaware is he not?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Is it? I don’t see anything willy-waving about cheering the UK as a nation state disappearing down the plug hole in the event of No Deal.

    A Brexit that results in the dismemberment of our country isn’t one I could support.

    "100 per cent. National willy-waving on steroids" doesn't really work. Maybe she should have said on viagra?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Roger said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is it? I don’t see anything willy-waving about cheering the UK as a nation state disappearing down the plug hole in the event of No Deal.

    A Brexit that results in the dismemberment of our country isn’t one I could support.

    "100 per cent. National willy-waving on steroids" doesn't really work. Maybe she should have said on viagra?
    Steroid induced impotence may aid willy waving, as a stiffie is hard to wave...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Roger said:

    OT Just seen the CH4 debate between Swinson and Davey. First time I've really seen Swinson. Liked them both. Great contrast to the trully horrible Tory obsessives. For Me Swinson just edged it. Slightly more presence and a Scottish accent is a big positive. I also liked the subtle choice of wearing yellow.

    When I saw them last Monday, I also thought they were both very good. Davey is the more "activist" of the two with a proven track record in SW London and he's more in the Ashdown/Farron mode - plenty of energy and speaks to the activists but that is limiting.

    Jo Swinson seems able to speak to the wider audience and would of course be the contrast to Johnson, Corbyn and even Farage. That's not a reason in and of itself for her to be Party leader of course but the LDs don't have the luxury of picking a leader that suits us but a leader likely to reach out to voters beyond the 20% (or 30%, or 10% or whatever).

    I'm not finding this an easy decision at all.
    Me neither, but it's a great difficult decision to have.
    Blimey, are there more Lib Dem members on PB than non-members?!
    Even some of the ostensible Tories and Labour supporters on PB are basically LDs
    As the Tories have retreated to Brexitland and Labour have descended into anti-semitism, remaining boringly sensible has made the LDs look more appealing by the day.
  • Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    I can't see the Chinese ripping up the Anglo-Sino Agreement being good for relations, but the Chinese have stated very clearly they do not care so why should we now tiptoe around this, as Prince Charles put it, waxwork regime?

    That flag is a stick in the eye to Peking. We should encourage it. My personal belief is that all citizens of Hong Kong should have, and should still, be offered the chance to become full British subjects. Drain Hong Kong of its wonderful, educated and civilised people.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two left liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    I think you’re wrong.
    We will see.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is it? I don’t see anything willy-waving about cheering the UK as a nation state disappearing down the plug hole in the event of No Deal.

    A Brexit that results in the dismemberment of our country isn’t one I could support.

    "100 per cent. National willy-waving on steroids" doesn't really work. Maybe she should have said on viagra?
    Steroid induced impotence may aid willy waving, as a stiffie is hard to wave...
    This conversation has very quickly gone to a place I did not expect it to.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    Turning on both of them is pretty pointless, they are stuck with one of them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:
    I think the Tory party is dead - the only question is when it's death becomes obvious....
    The smell is pretty overpowering even now..
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    I can't see the Chinese ripping up the Anglo-Sino Agreement being good for relations, but the Chinese have stated very clearly they do not care so why should we now tiptoe around this, as Prince Charles put it, waxwork regime?

    That flag is a stick in the eye to Peking. We should encourage it. My personal belief is that all citizens of Hong Kong should have, and should still, be offered the chance to become full British subjects. Drain Hong Kong of its wonderful, educated and civilised people.
    Most are British Nationals (Overseas) and already have privileges in the UK.

    I think Hong Kong should be a Trojan horse for the reform of China proper and Western policy should be geared for it to be so.

    Otherwise in 28 years time, when the agreement expires, China proper will just assimilate it wholesale and snuff out its freedoms like The Borg.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    I can't see the Chinese ripping up the Anglo-Sino Agreement being good for relations, but the Chinese have stated very clearly they do not care so why should we now tiptoe around this, as Prince Charles put it, waxwork regime?

    That flag is a stick in the eye to Peking. We should encourage it. My personal belief is that all citizens of Hong Kong should have, and should still, be offered the chance to become full British subjects. Drain Hong Kong of its wonderful, educated and civilised people.
    7.4m people would take some absorbing... I can see that playing well in Brexit Britain.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Honour in Imperial times was often sold quite cheaply.

    Hence the Arab saying, "It is better to be an enemy of the British than a friend, as they buy their enemies and sell their friends".
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    edited July 2019
    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    I can't see the Chinese ripping up the Anglo-Sino Agreement being good for relations, but the Chinese have stated very clearly they do not care so why should we now tiptoe around this, as Prince Charles put it, waxwork regime?

    That flag is a stick in the eye to Peking. We should encourage it. My personal belief is that all citizens of Hong Kong should have, and should still, be offered the chance to become full British subjects. Drain Hong Kong of its wonderful, educated and civilised people.
    I think Hong Kong should be a Trojan horse for the reform of China proper and Western policy should be geared for it to be so.

    Otherwise in 28 years time, when the agreement expires, China proper will just assimilate it wholesale and snuff out its freedoms like The Borg.
    Isn't the fear of the first sentence the entire reason China has acted the way it has for some time, so it can achieve the second sentence?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    edited July 2019

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-legalisation-of-cannabis-our-major-investigation-london-s-new-museum-a4179351.html

    Is it time to make cannabis legal in the UK? Today, the Evening Standard launches a major investigation to find the right answer.
    [..]
    Our exclusive poll today says 63 per cent of Londoners and 47 per cent of people across the UK are in favour — with less than a third against.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Sorry, I think that’s rank cowardice.

    Since when did standing up for anything worthwhile come without a price?

    That’s not the sort of nation we are. There will be no victory or benefit in the long term from avoiding the issue in the hope of a few extra quid of investment or so we can continue to be able to buy cheap plastic ducks. We will earn their contempt, and rightly so.

    Either we stand up and fight for our values or we are nothing.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    According to BBC Reporting Scotland:

    Jo Swinson supporters include Willie Rennie MSP (current SLD leader), Christine Jardine MSP and Sheila Ritchie MEP.

    Ed Davey supporters include former leaders Menzies Campbell, Jim Wallace and Tavish Scott.

    I must say that Davey has by far the more impressive list of backers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Sorry, I think that’s rank cowardice.

    Since when did standing up for anything worthwhile come without a price?

    That’s not the sort of nation we are. There will be no victory or benefit in the long term from avoiding the issue in the hope of a few extra quid of investment or so we can continue to be able to buy cheap plastic ducks. We will earn their contempt, and rightly so.

    Either we stand up and fight for our values or we are nothing.
    I agree it is rank cowardice. It is also what we will do. I am far from the kind of misery guts who bemoans every aspect of British history as a shameful episode, and I regularly criticise those who whine about us being humiliated in our global standing in the present day, but we are absolutely the sort of nation which will knuckle under, restrict ourselves to perhaps quite stern statements, as China does whatever it wants in Hong Kong. It may well take them a bit longer than they would like, but they'll get there.
  • Viceroy_of_OrangeViceroy_of_Orange Posts: 172
    edited July 2019
    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Quite likely IMO. The police stood off rather too far.

    Incidentally there is this interesting new series coming soon, on the Opium War, and the trade in coolies. Sounds interesting. Kapur is a great film maker.

    https://www.thestatesman.com/entertainment/shekhar-kapur-helm-tv-series-amitav-ghoshs-acclaimed-ibis-trilogy-1502740691.html
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Turning on both of them is pretty pointless, they are stuck with one of them.
    Not necessarily. Their members could put pressure on the Conservative MPs to go for a vote of no confidence in them, whoever wins.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited July 2019

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    It being respected or not was not the point, I suspect. But rather that its appearance will make it easier to dismiss the protestors. It's not like all of Hong Kong is behind them.
  • kjohnw said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:
    I think the Tory party is dead - the only question is when it's death becomes obvious....
    The Tory party is not dead , it will adapt and survive as it always has , its sole purpose is winning elections and the pursuit of power . It will all change once brexit is delivered
    What is wrong with you people? Brexit does not 'end' once(if) we leave. This will dominate British politics for the next 20 years.
    Of course it won't. Our relationship with the continent will continue to be a big issue - as it has always been.
    There will be those of the view that no matter the end result, the Brexit will never be hard enough. There will be those who want to rejoin the EU. There will be those who want to rejoin EEA/The Single Market.

    People are kidding themselves if they think this all goes away.
    No country wants to join the EU unless they need the money.
    Source?
    Country?
    Scotland.
    An independent Scotland would require significant financial support. Whether it would get it is another question entirely.
    Absolute nonsense.
    An Independent Scotland would be a basketcase. All Scots should be considering betting on an Independent Scotland once the markets are up as "Independence Insurance"
  • EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-legalisation-of-cannabis-our-major-investigation-london-s-new-museum-a4179351.html

    Is it time to make cannabis legal in the UK? Today, the Evening Standard launches a major investigation to find the right answer.
    [..]
    Our exclusive poll today says 63 per cent of Londoners and 47 per cent of people across the UK are in favour — with less than a third against.
    Obvious gag being, how many of those answering the poll were high at the time?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
  • EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,856
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Oh, I agree. It is just that after Brexit, beggars cannot be choosers.

    We were hardly standing up to them before!

    I wonder what stance Camborne would have taken? At one point they talked about being China's best friend in the west.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    It's odds-on the flag was planted there by the Chinese authorities to discredit the protestors.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    kle4 said:

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-legalisation-of-cannabis-our-major-investigation-london-s-new-museum-a4179351.html

    Is it time to make cannabis legal in the UK? Today, the Evening Standard launches a major investigation to find the right answer.
    [..]
    Our exclusive poll today says 63 per cent of Londoners and 47 per cent of people across the UK are in favour — with less than a third against.
    Obvious gag being, how many of those answering the poll were high at the time?
    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp
  • EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    It's odds-on the flag was planted there by the Chinese authorities to discredit the protestors.
    Total nonsense. You probably believe Trump is a Russian plant too.

    Examine footage from the protests and it has been seen time and time again in the crowds. Even before the protests, it appears every year at a march over the whole issue.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited July 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-legalisation-of-cannabis-our-major-investigation-london-s-new-museum-a4179351.html

    Is it time to make cannabis legal in the UK? Today, the Evening Standard launches a major investigation to find the right answer.
    [..]
    Our exclusive poll today says 63 per cent of Londoners and 47 per cent of people across the UK are in favour — with less than a third against.
    Obvious gag being, how many of those answering the poll were high at the time?
    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp
    Why? I support legalisation, doesn't mean I cannot joke about it, and if one doesn't support it one can joke about it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Honour in Imperial times was often sold quite cheaply.

    Hence the Arab saying, "It is better to be an enemy of the British than a friend, as they buy their enemies and sell their friends".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    edited July 2019
    Cyclefree said:


    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp

    No one is saying Cannabis is harmless, but Alcohol isn't harmless either but we accept that most people use it sensibly so it remains legal, despite all the problems it causes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
    Elizabeth Warren is a Senator from Massachusetts, about the most left liberal state in the US and is pitching to the cultural and economic left.

    Biden won 2 presidential elections with Obama and was re elected as Senator from Delaware in the 1980s even when Reagan and Bush Snr won the state
    Biden is Senator for the left liberal state of Delaware is he not?
    Delaware voted for Nixon in 1972 and Bush Snr in 1988, Massachusetts voted for McGovern and Dukakis
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Honour in Imperial times was often sold quite cheaply.

    Hence the Arab saying, "It is better to be an enemy of the British than a friend, as they buy their enemies and sell their friends".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
    Yeah: because of course the Arab world was full of straight dealing....

    The British behaved like every other top dog: they did what they could get away with. Just as every other Imperial power has behaved.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
    Elizabeth Warren is a Senator from Massachusetts, about the most left liberal state in the US and is pitching to the cultural and economic left.

    Biden won 2 presidential elections with Obama and was re elected as Senator from Delaware in the 1980s even when Reagan and Bush Snr won the state
    Biden is Senator for the left liberal state of Delaware is he not?
    Delaware voted for Nixon in 2972
    Wait, Futurama was right about that, just off by 30 years?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-legalisation-of-cannabis-our-major-investigation-london-s-new-museum-a4179351.html

    Is it time to make cannabis legal in the UK? Today, the Evening Standard launches a major investigation to find the right answer.
    [..]
    Our exclusive poll today says 63 per cent of Londoners and 47 per cent of people across the UK are in favour — with less than a third against.
    Obvious gag being, how many of those answering the poll were high at the time?
    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp
    Why? I support legalisation, doesn't mean I cannot joke about it.

    I wasn't referring to your joke. But to the ES story which might have been better journalism if it had referred to the NHS decision.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    It's odds-on the flag was planted there by the Chinese authorities to discredit the protestors.
    You mean like the tanks planted in Tiananmen Square in 1989?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    GIN1138 said:

    Oh well this is odd.

    Am posting to PB with Firefox where Vanilla embed is loading just fine but embed isn't loading with Google Chrome?

    It’ll be a default setting that’s changed in the browser. Most likely something about loading third-party content or third-party plugins.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Sorry, I think that’s rank cowardice.

    Since when did standing up for anything worthwhile come without a price?

    That’s not the sort of nation we are. There will be no victory or benefit in the long term from avoiding the issue in the hope of a few extra quid of investment or so we can continue to be able to buy cheap plastic ducks. We will earn their contempt, and rightly so.

    Either we stand up and fight for our values or we are nothing.
    The strong do what they can while the weak suffer what they must. Britain chose to weaken itself when it left the EU. You willed Britain’s increased impotence when you chose to support Brexit.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
    Elizabeth Warren is a Senator from Massachusetts, about the most left liberal state in the US and is pitching to the cultural and economic left.

    Biden won 2 presidential elections with Obama and was re elected as Senator from Delaware in the 1980s even when Reagan and Bush Snr won the state
    Biden is Senator for the left liberal state of Delaware is he not?
    Delaware voted for Nixon in 1972 and Bush Snr in 1988, Massachusetts voted for McGovern and Dukakis
    California voted for Nixon, Bush and Reagan.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Honour in Imperial times was often sold quite cheaply.

    Hence the Arab saying, "It is better to be an enemy of the British than a friend, as they buy their enemies and sell their friends".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
    Contemporaneous with the British Indian Coolie trade.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Scott_P said:
    Too many names for him to remember ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.
    Surely nobody calls Zimbabwe Rhodesia?

    It was only ever Southern Rhodesia.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Roger said:

    OT Just seen the CH4 debate between Swinson and Davey. First time I've really seen Swinson. Liked them both. Great contrast to the trully horrible Tory obsessives. For Me Swinson just edged it. Slightly more presence and a Scottish accent is a big positive. I also liked the subtle choice of wearing yellow.

    When I saw them last Monday, I also thought they were both very good. Davey is the more "activist" of the two with a proven track record in SW London and he's more in the Ashdown/Farron mode - plenty of energy and speaks to the activists but that is limiting.

    Jo Swinson seems able to speak to the wider audience and would of course be the contrast to Johnson, Corbyn and even Farage. That's not a reason in and of itself for her to be Party leader of course but the LDs don't have the luxury of picking a leader that suits us but a leader likely to reach out to voters beyond the 20% (or 30%, or 10% or whatever).

    I'm not finding this an easy decision at all.
    Me neither, but it's a great difficult decision to have.
    Blimey, are there more Lib Dem members on PB than non-members?!
    Even some of the ostensible Tories and Labour supporters on PB are basically LDs
    These pesky sensible people get everywhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    Stories like that just make me think 'how would I know what the right sized Cabinet is anyway?'. Is it too large at the moment? Not large enough? I'd have no idea.

    Allows him to show he is prepared to tackle waste even as it applies to government offices, and that he is not concerned about handing out lots of prize places to get votes though.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Honour in Imperial times was often sold quite cheaply.

    Hence the Arab saying, "It is better to be an enemy of the British than a friend, as they buy their enemies and sell their friends".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
    Contemporaneous with the British Indian Coolie trade.
    Slavery was abolished in Saudi and Yemen as recently as 1962, Oman in 1970, Mauretania 2007.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Nigelb said:

    Too many names for him to remember ?

    Limited number of headbangers...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see that being good for Sino-UK relations. Reminders of the century of national humiliation.
    China have brought this on themselves by trying to chip away at the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    I’m a bit tired of our cowardly failure to stand up to China on this and I agree with Chris Patten that it’s a case of national honour to challenge them to uphold their side of the agreement.
    Honour is cheap. We don't want to annoy the chinese as the 21st century rolls on. Given what they get away with with the rest of their people I cannot see that an honourable stand about them keeping to their word on Hong Kong will achieve anything. Sad, but they are on their own, facing a juggernaut.
    Sorry, I think that’s rank cowardice.

    Since when did standing up for anything worthwhile come without a price?

    That’s not the sort of nation we are. There will be no victory or benefit in the long term from avoiding the issue in the hope of a few extra quid of investment or so we can continue to be able to buy cheap plastic ducks. We will earn their contempt, and rightly so.

    Either we stand up and fight for our values or we are nothing.
    The strong do what they can while the weak suffer what they must. Britain chose to weaken itself when it left the EU. You willed Britain’s increased impotence when you chose to support Brexit.

    If you say so, but do you really think we'd act any differently if we remain in the EU? If it is a moral issue we'd have their backing regardless, surely?
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Too many names for him to remember ?
    More likley people will refuse to serve.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes a reminder of the UK's shameful role in the global drugs war.

    #SayNoToDrugs
    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-legalisation-of-cannabis-our-major-investigation-london-s-new-museum-a4179351.html

    Is it time to make cannabis legal in the UK? Today, the Evening Standard launches a major investigation to find the right answer.
    [..]
    Our exclusive poll today says 63 per cent of Londoners and 47 per cent of people across the UK are in favour — with less than a third against.
    Obvious gag being, how many of those answering the poll were high at the time?
    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp
    Cannabis usage has a fairly significant part in our youth mental illness crisis.

    It is why I oppose legalisation, but do support decriminalistion with boosted treatment, like Portugal.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    It's odds-on the flag was planted there by the Chinese authorities to discredit the protestors.
    Total nonsense. You probably believe Trump is a Russian plant too.

    Examine footage from the protests and it has been seen time and time again in the crowds. Even before the protests, it appears every year at a march over the whole issue.
    Well, I've not seen it in footage I've watched - if you want to post a link I'm prepared to be persuaded I'm wrong.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    CatMan said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp

    No one is saying Cannabis is harmless, but Alcohol isn't harmless either but we accept that most people use it sensibly so it remains legal, despite all the problems it causes.
    And better legalised and regulated - which might well do more to address the health issues. Legalisation need not mean a free for all.



  • Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.

    So I take it then that you refer to Paris as Paree, Seville as Sevilla, Prague as Praha and Moscow as Mosckva? If not, why are you being inconsistent? Either you insist on using the native names for all, most of which have totally different sounds in native languages, or do not. I prefer using the names on my own language.

    Most of the time anyway, the people who re-name cities or places aren't particulary nice. If you go to Bombay, as I have, you'll notice that many Indians shun the extreme nationalist (invented) name of Mumbai, and still call it Bombay.

    I wouldn't call Zimbabwe Rhodesia though. That's an insult to Rhodesia.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Nigelb said:

    CatMan said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp

    No one is saying Cannabis is harmless, but Alcohol isn't harmless either but we accept that most people use it sensibly so it remains legal, despite all the problems it causes.
    And better legalised and regulated - which might well do more to address the health issues. Legalisation need not mean a free for all.

    Agreed. Legalised, regulated and taxed (to help cover the health costs) - that's the way to go.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited July 2019
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.
    Surely nobody calls Zimbabwe Rhodesia?

    It was only ever Southern Rhodesia.
    Plenty of people do (at least when referring to its past).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Typo in the title
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    JackW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Roger said:

    OT Just seen the CH4 debate between Swinson and Davey. First time I've really seen Swinson. Liked them both. Great contrast to the trully horrible Tory obsessives. For Me Swinson just edged it. Slightly more presence and a Scottish accent is a big positive. I also liked the subtle choice of wearing yellow.

    When I saw them last Monday, I also thought they were both very good. Davey is the more "activist" of the two with a proven track record in SW London and he's more in the Ashdown/Farron mode - plenty of energy and speaks to the activists but that is limiting.

    Jo Swinson seems able to speak to the wider audience and would of course be the contrast to Johnson, Corbyn and even Farage. That's not a reason in and of itself for her to be Party leader of course but the LDs don't have the luxury of picking a leader that suits us but a leader likely to reach out to voters beyond the 20% (or 30%, or 10% or whatever).

    I'm not finding this an easy decision at all.
    I have now voted. Given that I have supported losers in every single leadership election in the party's history I won't reveal my choice for thr moment.
    So you were the guy who voted for Alan Beith!
    But which of the losing candidates did OGH Snr support in the 1967 Liberal leadership election - Eric Lubbock or Emlyn Hooson?
    I believe he was a Labour man until the 1979 parliament!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    Cyclefree said:




    I wasn't referring to your joke. But to the ES story which might have been better journalism if it had referred to the NHS decision.

    Not sure what I think about the issue, but do people like the Standard periodically dumping all news coverage onto page 7 onwards and devoting the first part of the paper entirely to a new campaign idea? I can't really complain as it's free, but I mainly get newspapers to read news - if I want their opinion on something I'll read the editorial or buy a magazine.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.
    Surely nobody calls Zimbabwe Rhodesia?

    It was only ever Southern Rhodesia.
    Plenty of people do (at least when referring to its past).
    That was intended as sarcasm.

    It appears not to have quite hit its mark.

    The point is it was only called 'Rhodesia' when in rebellion under Smith. When under British control before and after it was Southern Rhodesia.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited July 2019



    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.

    So I take it then that you refer to Paris as Paree, Seville as Sevilla, Prague as Praha and Moscow as Mosckva? If not, why are you being inconsistent? Either you insist on using the native names for all, most of which have totally different sounds in native languages, or do not. I prefer using the names on my own language.

    Most of the time anyway, the people who re-name cities or places aren't particulary nice. If you go to Bombay, as I have, you'll notice that many Indians shun the extreme nationalist (invented) name of Mumbai, and still call it Bombay.

    I wouldn't call Zimbabwe Rhodesia though. That's an insult to Rhodesia.
    Rhodesia is not the native name. The borders of what is now Zimbabwe were imposed by people from an entirely different continent with no concerns for local culture or geography and when the native people regained control they gave it the most appropriate name they could find, that of an ancient empire within its borders, rather than keeping the name of a guy from a very long way away who happened to conquer them a century earlier.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.
    Surely nobody calls Zimbabwe Rhodesia?

    It was only ever Southern Rhodesia.
    After UDI it was just "Rhodesia"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Warren vs Kamala in debate will be very interesting. Looking forward to that. If the Dem race boils down to these two I will be happy and relaxed. Trump is toast against either but IMO marginally more crisp and burnt if the junior senator from California gets the nod. The fact that she is my main bet has absolutely nothing to do with this assessment. It is 100% objective based on the evidence of my eyes and ears.

    If it is Warren v Harris Trump will be laughing all the way to re election, he probably wins the popular vote against either as well as likely increasing his Electoral College margin.

    If the Democrats really think two liberal coastal elitists stand a better chance of beating Trump in the Electoral College than a charismatic centrist from rustbelt Pennsylvania like Joe Biden then they deserve to lose in 2020
    Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma and is pitching for the swing middle class voters needed to win in 2020. Biden is a serial loser for a reason and I think Trump would get the better of him too.
    Elizabeth Warren is a Senator from Massachusetts, about the most left liberal state in the US and is pitching to the cultural and economic left.

    Biden won 2 presidential elections with Obama and was re elected as Senator from Delaware in the 1980s even when Reagan and Bush Snr won the state
    Biden is Senator for the left liberal state of Delaware is he not?
    Delaware voted for Nixon in 1972 and Bush Snr in 1988, Massachusetts voted for McGovern and Dukakis
    California voted for Nixon, Bush and Reagan.
    California as a whole is not left liberal, San Francisco and the Bay area is, even McGovern won there, southern California though is in parts quite conservative
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Perhaps we could swap Scotland for Hong Kong?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Alistair said:

    So my strategy of laying the oldies in this market has proven to be wise.

    In the humble opinion of PBers what are the odds of Trump splitting with the GOP and running as an Independent in 2020?

    Nae chance. The GOP have 100% hitched themselves to the Trump train.
    Perhaps I'm over estimating the power of Robert Mueller's testimony to Congress.
    This Republican Congressman’s comment rather supports that idea...

    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/451209-gohmert-calls-mueller-an-anal-opening-ahead-of-testimony
    “It reinforced the anal opening that I believe Mueller to be.”
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    CatMan said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Perhaps that story should have been read in conjunction with this one - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-opens-its-first-clinic-to-treat-cannabis-psychosis-85pw6xpmp

    No one is saying Cannabis is harmless, but Alcohol isn't harmless either but we accept that most people use it sensibly so it remains legal, despite all the problems it causes.
    I know I am a minority on here on this (at least based on the last time this topic was debated). But given the harm it does to the young, especially, and knowing from personal experience what psychosis can do to a person, I am not really persuaded that legalisation is some sort of cost free relaxation which no-one can really object to.

    Mental health has become a fashionable cause these days. Hardly a day passes without advice about how to notice it, how to care for it, how to ensure that we don't stress our children, our colleagues, our employees, our students because mental health is important. And yet at the same time we (some of us) seem relaxed about the idea of allowing a product which does cause serious mental health issues to be sold legally to the very same young people whose mental health we worry about.

    It does not really compute for me. It strikes me that the level of thinking is (1) the drugs laws aren't working; (2) therefore let's legalise (without noticing that (2) does not necessarily follow from (1)); and (3) since that is what people want to do let's ignore any evidence suggesting that this might not be a good idea for some.
    Meanwhile somewhere else in government someone will be talking about how we must look after the mental health of our young people without wondering whether the existing problems with cannabis use might get worse rather than better if it's legalised.

    Doubtless we do need a more rational approach to drugs but a bit of joined up thinking on the topic would be good.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    The problem is not the HK ensign. The problem is talking hard and doing fuck all. If we were commited to securing the freedom of the people of Hong Kong we could have chosen to stay there (the expiring part of the lease didn't cover the island) or allow the inhabitants to have passports that allowed them to settle in the UK. Given that neither of these things were done and our present shower of shit in Westminster and Whitehall aren't going to allow a mass immigration of millions of people, then all the UK is going to do is fail and blame, a mode of action it is becoming all too comfortable with.
  • DougSeal said:



    Because you get off on old colonial symbols and terminology like ‘Peking’.

    I bet you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia.

    So I take it then that you refer to Paris as Paree, Seville as Sevilla, Prague as Praha and Moscow as Mosckva? If not, why are you being inconsistent? Either you insist on using the native names for all, most of which have totally different sounds in native languages, or do not. I prefer using the names on my own language.

    Most of the time anyway, the people who re-name cities or places aren't particulary nice. If you go to Bombay, as I have, you'll notice that many Indians shun the extreme nationalist (invented) name of Mumbai, and still call it Bombay.

    I wouldn't call Zimbabwe Rhodesia though. That's an insult to Rhodesia.
    Rhodesia is not the native name. The borders of what is now Zimbabwe were imposed by people from an entirely different continent with no concerns for local culture or geography and when the native people regained control they gave it the most appropriate name they could find, that of an ancient empire within its borders, rather than keeping the name of a guy from a very long way away who happened to conquer them a century earlier.
    The wheel did not exist there before this guy arrived. So given he and his successors actually built something of merit in an area where there was previously nothing, he has a pretty strong claim to have it named after himself.

    Given it is returning to its previous state of nothingness though, it is fitting to revert to the name Zimbabwe. I will give you that.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Oh well this is odd.

    Am posting to PB with Firefox where Vanilla embed is loading just fine but embed isn't loading with Google Chrome?

    It’ll be a default setting that’s changed in the browser. Most likely something about loading third-party content or third-party plugins.
    Am looking in my Chrome settings now but can't see anything obvious?
  • Viceroy_of_OrangeViceroy_of_Orange Posts: 172
    edited July 2019
    viewcode said:

    EPG said:

    One would assume the flag business is the work of PRC agents provocateurs

    Whatever about Harris or Biden, I can't see Warren surviving debates with Trump. Basically she has to convince Obama->Trump supporters she is authentic, fat chance

    That flag is widely respected in Hong Kong. It stands for everything that is good in Hong Kong, as compared to the blood stained cloth of the Peking ghouls. Long may it fly over the bay.
    You’re a parody. :D
    Does the flag of HK freedom make you cringe with post-colonial guilt?

    Oh my. Keep hold of your handbag because it is here to stay.
    I had nothing to do with colonialism mate and neither did you.
    Then what is your apparent problem with the HK Ensign?
    The problem is not the HK ensign. The problem is talking hard and doing fuck all. If we were commited to securing the freedom of the people of Hong Kong we could have chosen to stay there (the expiring part of the lease didn't cover the island) or allow the inhabitants to have passports that allowed them to settle in the UK. Given that neither of these things were done and our present shower of shit in Westminster and Whitehall aren't going to allow a mass immigration of millions of people, then all the UK is going to do is fail and blame, a mode of action it is becoming all too comfortable with.
    I agree that our treatment of HK was disgraceful.

    Our pathetic leaders are willing to send troops and planes to Syria and Libya, areas where we have absolutely no business, but fold over like cheap deckchairs in the face of China. Gutless fools.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    If it is Harris or Warren then I think the Dems will lose, unless they tie up the nomination and then tack to the centre ground as fast as they can, before most voters notice.

    End of private med insurance etc etc. Trump will be jumping around the room in anticipation.


This discussion has been closed.