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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The final step. Why the leader of the Conservative party does

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who can win a majority at the moment and if he does he can then dispense with Patel and the DUP and go for a FTA for GB and backstop referendum in NI.

    However he has to campaign on a Brexit Deal or No Deal platform to win that election first, only once he wins it can he dispense with them
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    Charles said:



    You know I’m not a Tory, right? Haven’t been a member since IDS was elected


    Just as you don't need to be gay to be a victim of a homophobic attack or black to be a victim of racism, you don't need to be a Tory to be on the wrong end of Toryphobia.

    It's the last acceptable refuge of the hater these days.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:



    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?

    Scene opens with exhausted peasants pushing a cart through the mud

    [clang]. Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead! [clang]

    For goodness sake @Cyclefree, get a grip!
    No - it is the Tories who need to get a grip. Seriously. You (Tories) are behaving ridiculously. Utterly ridiculously. The more we see of those who are or who have been in Cabinet the more we see people who are ignorant, incompetent and woefully lacking in any talent. We see arrogance and a total lack of concern for those likely to be impacted by a policy (and that is to be polite) which you cannot explain, for which you have no plan and in respect of which your spokesmen are talking verifiable nonsense virtually every single time you open your mouths.

    You Tories are contemptible in the way you are behaving. You are exhausted, out of ideas, confused, directionless and divided. You are out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people who do worry about the future, about jobs, about their children and their future, about homes and savings. You are destroying what remains of your USP and in your complacency and arrogance think that Corbyn is so much worse that voters will have no option but to choose you. You are so mistaken. You are desperate to escape the trap you've fallen into and are thrashing around. It is pitiful and concerning watching this happen in a country which used to be a by-word for pragmatism and common-sense.

    "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    I'm tired, yes. But above all I'm furious at the way your wretched party is wilfully gambling with my children's futures. You will not be easily - if ever - forgiven. Not by me anyway.

    You know I’m not a Tory, right? Haven’t been a member since IDS was elected
    I had assumed you were.

    I mean every word I've written and it is aimed at the Tories - here and elsewhere - who have turned Brexit into their new religion. It is pathetic and idiotic. As is the policy they are now worshipping.

    People that voted for “no deal is better than a bad deal” and “Brexit means Brexit” share part of the blame for this mess.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    TGOHF said:

    Like a doomsday cult on here - the end is nigh nigh nigh !

    Cans of man up all round required.

    You wouldn't want me beside you in the trenches, that's for sure. I used up all my cans.

    Pleasant evening to all.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who can win a majority at the moment and if he does he can then dispense with Patel and the DUP and go for a FTA for GB and backstop referendum in NI.

    However he has to campaign on a Brexit Deal or No Deal platform to win that election first, only once he wins it can he dispense with them
    His grand plan is to throw his supporters under a bus once elected?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who can win a majority at the moment
    You sure about that ?

    2 years of Gove and they would have won by 20 points.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Laura K just made him seem like a dribbling blobfish and she wasn't even trying. If any Tory member votes for him they're as thick as pig shit.

    (Except for HYUFD who is in love)

    I have no love for Boris but your intolerance does you no favours
    To put it into context I would prefer Len McClusky as PM rather than Johnson and I thought there was no one I liked less than McClusky
    My only concern is that there are many conservative members that I totally oppose, but there are many of us who do not like being collectively referred to as you did

    I hope you accept some of us are just as despairing at the hard brexiteers in our party as you are
    Quit the party then. It's rotting away around you.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited June 2019

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
    Who in their right mind would be using Chrome on a Mac? 🤨
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    nico67 said:

    So what Johnson said about Muslim women and flag waving picanninies was really what’s going on in his head . Oh dear !

    Do we add the Libya comments on clearing up the corpses to make a beach resort , gay marriage as bestiality and the rest aswell !

    I can see why his handlers or should they be called babysitters want to keep him away from the cameras and any debate .

    The more he talks the worse it gets !

    One of his key backers told me a few months ago that dealing with Boris is like “wrangling a toddler”
    Don’t give a toddler the nuclear codes.
    Britain doesn't have nuclear codes. PM passes the order (a "Prime Minister's Directive") to the Navy, a signal is sent (from Northwood?), the sub captain gets the keys out of the safe, he unlocks the trigger (a modified handgun trigger), the missile(s) launch, a few minutes later instant sunshine.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
    Who in their right mind would be using Chrome on a Mac? 🤨
    I do :(
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who can win a majority at the moment and if he does he can then dispense with Patel and the DUP and go for a FTA for GB and backstop referendum in NI.

    However he has to campaign on a Brexit Deal or No Deal platform to win that election first, only once he wins it can he dispense with them
    You're not really selling this plan when it relies on a lot of people at the least smart enough to know he would do that, and still expet they will play ball up until that point. And relies on Boris essentially lying all this time, but for that to be a good thing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
    Who in their right mind would be using Chrome on a Mac? 🤨
    I do :(
    It’s a bloated memory and battery hog. Safari is far superior.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited June 2019

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I have that.

    Are you using Chrome?

    I think it is a Chrome recent update issue (I am now viewing on Firefox).
    Ah I am, that's good news... at least the laptop is not dying.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who can win a majority at the moment and if he does he can then dispense with Patel and the DUP and go for a FTA for GB and backstop referendum in NI.

    However he has to campaign on a Brexit Deal or No Deal platform to win that election first, only once he wins it can he dispense with them
    Do we have any analysis of the Brexit view of wanna be MPs in the dozen or more of Tory marginals Boris needs?

    There is no point winning a majority if the MPs who take you over the line are all ERG whackos.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
    Who in their right mind would be using Chrome on a Mac? 🤨
    I do :(
    It’s a bloated memory and battery hog. Safari is far superior.
    Thankfully I have a ton of ram on this thing :p
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    So in 25 working days in Parliament they’re going to get through trade and customs bills, immigration , the miracle agreement Bozo makes going through both the Commons and the Lords and still time to put out the bunting arrange the fireworks and get ready for Independence Day !
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it tinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who can win a majority at the moment and if he does he can then dispense with Patel and the DUP and go for a FTA for GB and backstop referendum in NI.

    However he has to campaign on a Brexit Deal or No Deal platform to win that election first, only once he wins it can he dispense with them
    Do we have any analysis of the Brexit view of wanna be MPs in the dozen or more of Tory marginals Boris needs?

    There is no point winning a majority if the MPs who take you over the line are all ERG whackos.
    Percentage wise only about 5% of Tory MPs are ERG whackos who did not even vote for MV3 and I suspect the same holds for Tory candidates
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...

    According the Gordon Brown "the United Kingdom is in mortal danger".

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7176697/Former-Prime-Minister-GORDON-BROWN-fears-antagonistic-nationalism-mean-end-United-Kingdom.html
    He doesn't look very well.

    Amused that he's moved from 'how dare the mad Nats assume that they can keep the UK pound' to 'the mad Nats want to dispense with the UK pound'. Ye cannae win wi some folk.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    And on the evidence of the past week Boris fabled campaign skills are indeed just fables. He cowers in a corner refusing to engage with his opponents, a minor story about his personal life dominates the headlines for days on end and when he does emerge from his bunker he is unable to answer even the most obvious and predictable questions about his policies. And the Tories laud his campaigning skills and see him as a sure fire winner.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1143266403967000576

    Has anyone told Pritti, Francios, Bone, IDS, Mogg etc etc about this classic US primary nominee swerve to the centre ground?

    It was pretty obvious from his Birmingham speech. His plan, such as it is, is to buy off the right with any sort of Brexit and then drop them and pitch to the centre. Just a shame he hasn’t coloured any of it in.
    Does he think the ERG wont destroy him as they have done May?
    Indeed. May already offered them any sort of Brexit and they (or rather the spartan rump of the ERG along with the Grievers) said up yours. They don't want any sort of Brexit - the ones who were willing to take any sort of Brexit in order to ensure it happened at all already caved in during MV3, including Boris, revealing what crap he had been talking for months beforehand. The rest want more than that. However unreasonable that may or may not be, they won't cave in with any old Brexit.
    Which is why Boris needs a majority to deliver a Deal Brexit, the WA will never get through otherwise because of the DUP and 10-20 Tory ERG hardliners who are opposed to the WA in principle even without the backstop or the temporary Customs Union removed and about 6 Tory diehard Remainer hardliners who are now basically LDs in all but name
    Yes, but it is why May needed a bigger majority too. Wanting it doesn't make it happen. Needing it doesn't make it happen. And as May tested to destruction you cannot tell one group one thing and another something else without them noticing, and as much as you love Boris and believe in his ability to win a majority how does he campaign for a majority for deal Brexit when that deal will largely be what the Patels of the world insist is dead, and they will viciously fight back against any suggestion they must be overruled by the party getting a majority. Would that not just undermine the claw back of support from BXP, and make dozens of the current MPs mutinious?
    Boris is the only Tory who y once he wins it can he dispense with them
    His grand plan is to throw his supporters under a bus once elected?
    No just the ultra diehards who were stupid enough to back Boris rather than press Steve Baker or Priti Patel to stand or even to vote for Esther McVey who has now said the WA is dead when they knew full well Boris voted for the WA at MV3 unlike Baker and Patel
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Boris is just a straight Gordon Brown.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    TGOHF said:

    Boris is just a straight Gordon Brown.

    Without the strategic or historical sense.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Brexit sucks everything into its maw.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...

    According the Gordon Brown "the United Kingdom is in mortal danger".

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7176697/Former-Prime-Minister-GORDON-BROWN-fears-antagonistic-nationalism-mean-end-United-Kingdom.html
    He doesn't look very well.

    Amused that he's moved from 'how dare the mad Nats assume that they can keep the UK pound' to 'the mad Nats want to dispense with the UK pound'. Ye cannae win wi some folk.
    Trying to co-opt the language of hard and soft Brexit seems to be the latest thing. He's clearly making it up as there is no such thing as the UK single market and customs union.

    For just as all political attention has been fixated on Britain moving from a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit, the Scottish nationalists have moved — almost unnoticed — from demanding a soft form of separation to demanding a hard, far more extreme, type.

    In the 2014 Scottish referendum, the nationalists wanted Scotland to leave the UK political union — yet keep the UK pound and stay inside the UK single market and customs union.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
    Who in their right mind would be using Chrome on a Mac? 🤨
    I do :(
    Me too 🤯
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited June 2019
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else's PB acting funny? Mine flashes each time I type a letter into the comment box :o Worried my computer is about to die....

    I'm still getting posts saying that Boris as PM is going to work out fine, so yeah...
    I thought Robert had debugged that issue last week? :p
    Nope. Still does it on Chrome on Mac.
    Who in their right mind would be using Chrome on a Mac? 🤨
    I do :(
    Me too 🤯
    Why not?

    Safari has issues. For example, on PB site, it leaves black dots on LHS all over the place.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Brexit sucks everything into its maw.
    It’s like a gaping black hole .

    Can’t we just forget the whole thing !
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    He will be out of office before the end of the year.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    nico67 said:

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Brexit sucks everything into its maw.
    It’s like a gaping black hole .

    Can’t we just forget the whole thing !
    Some of us can emigrate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Boris actually believes in Brexit unlike the last two PMs and will actually commit to deliver it, Deal or No Deal
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TGOHF said:

    Boris is just a straight Gordon Brown.

    May was Brown, Boris is Trump
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:



    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?

    Scene opens with exhausted peasants pushing a cart through the mud

    [clang]. Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead! [clang]

    For goodness sake @Cyclefree, get a grip!
    No - it is the Tories who need to get a grip. Seriously. You (Tories) are behaving ridiculously. Utterly ridiculously. The more we see of those who are or who have been in Cabinet the more we see people who are ignorant, incompetent and woefully lacking in any talent. We see arrogance and a total lack of concern for those likely to be impacted by a policy (and that is to be polite) which you cannot explain, for which you have no plan and in respect of which your spokesmen are talking verifiable nonsense virtually every single time you open your mouths.

    You Tories are contemptible in the way you are behaving. You are exhausted, out of ideas, confused, directionless and divided. You are out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people who do worry about the future, about jobs, about their children and their future, about homes and savings. You are destroying what remains of your USP and in your complacency and arrogance think that Corbyn is so much worse that voters will have no option but to choose you. You are so mistaken. You are desperate to escape the trap you've fallen into and are thrashing around. It is pitiful and concerning watching this happen in a country which used to be a by-word for pragmatism and common-sense.

    "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    I'm tired, yes. But above all I'm furious at the way your wretched party is wilfully gambling with my children's futures. You will not be easily - if ever - forgiven. Not by me anyway.

    Yaaaaawwwnn.

    Yet another Cyclefree rant.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    HYUFD said:

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Boris actually believes in Brexit unlike the last two PMs and will actually commit to deliver it, Deal or No Deal
    If Boris does Brexit then gets turfed out it will probably be worth him doing such a kamikazi approach.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Now there's a silver lining...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Brexit sucks everything into its maw.
    It’s like a gaping black hole .

    Can’t we just forget the whole thing !
    Some of us can emigrate.
    I’m busy arranging it ! My advice get off the Millennium Falcon before the Death Star tractor beam kicks in! 4 months to escape !
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Laura K just made him seem like a dribbling blobfish and she wasn't even trying. If any Tory member votes for him they're as thick as pig shit.

    (Except for HYUFD who is in love)

    I have no love for Boris but your intolerance does you no favours
    To put it into context I would prefer Len McClusky as PM rather than Johnson and I thought there was no one I liked less than McClusky
    My only concern is that there are many conservative members that I totally oppose, but there are many of us who do not like being collectively referred to as you did

    I hope you accept some of us are just as despairing at the hard brexiteers in our party as you are
    It's dead, Big G. It's over. These people don't give up.

    Labour may, eventually, get rid of Corbyn. It may return to a Miliband type or even, 20 years from now, a Blair.

    But the Conservative Party isn't going to get rid of the hard Brexiteers. It will simply become the party of Little Englanders. There are plenty of "shire Tories" who, though they would never count themselves as Farageists, will be delighted with Boris saying tally-ho to WTO. They are the members who will vote for him as leader. If his peccadillos then bring him down (or, more likely, London's electoral geography), they'll say "ah well" and vote for someone with even less ballot-box appeal.

    The Conservative Party needs a drubbing at the polls to force a period of self-reflection and a purging of the old guard. It isn't going to get that, because its opposition is Corbyn, who couldn't drub a weed in his allotment. It will continue spiralling into extremism and irrelevance.

    It's over.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Brexit sucks everything into its maw.
    It’s like a gaping black hole .

    Can’t we just forget the whole thing !
    Some of us can emigrate.
    I’m busy arranging it ! My advice get off the Millennium Falcon before the Death Star tractor beam kicks in! 4 months to escape !
    "Bring 'em on! I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!" :)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Awful press for Bozza. Even the Telegraph not convinced.

    Lynton's deceased cat better be a bloody heavy weight tomorrow.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    TGOHF said:
    The question is when they will show their hand. 23rd July or 5th September?

    Or perhaps we should just ask when Mike is on holiday?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    The Conservatives are a constant. Go on, Boris, prove me wrong!
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Laura K just made him seem like a dribbling blobfish and she wasn't even trying. If any Tory member votes for him they're as thick as pig shit.

    (Except for HYUFD who is in love)

    I have no love for Boris but your intolerance does you no favours
    To put it into context I would prefer Len McClusky as PM rather than Johnson and I thought there was no one I liked less than McClusky
    My only concern is that there are many conservative members that I totally oppose, but there are many of us who do not like being collectively referred to as you did

    I hope you accept some of us are just as despairing at the hard brexiteers in our party as you are
    It's dead, Big G. It's over. These people don't give up.

    Labour may, eventually, get rid of Corbyn. It may return to a Miliband type or even, 20 years from now, a Blair.

    But the Conservative Party isn't going to get rid of the hard Brexiteers. It will simply become the party of Little Englanders. There are plenty of "shire Tories" who, though they would never count themselves as Farageists, will be delighted with Boris saying tally-ho to WTO. They are the members who will vote for him as leader. If his peccadillos then bring him down (or, more likely, London's electoral geography), they'll say "ah well" and vote for someone with even less ballot-box appeal.

    The Conservative Party needs a drubbing at the polls to force a period of self-reflection and a purging of the old guard. It isn't going to get that, because its opposition is Corbyn, who couldn't drub a weed in his allotment. It will continue spiralling into extremism and irrelevance.

    It's over.
    I disagree... I'm staying and if brexit happens and if its shite then the headbangers will slink away and even better if Boris and ERG have to carry the can, rather than sit on the sidelines doing easy potshots with no responsibility...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I give up. The Tories are going to have a 4-week campaign and then some of their MPs are going to say that the chosen leader is an arse in whom they don't have any confidence. And then we'll have yet another GE and waste more time and probably end up with another messy hung Parliament and still won't be any closer to having done any of the practical stuff needed actually to leave the EU on any sort of basis.

    And then, presumably, panic and ask for an extension or maybe not but leave without any relevant legislation into some sort of legal no-man's land two months before Xmas when all the warehouses will be full of Chinese tat to cheer us all up at the likelihood that the only veg available at reasonable prices will be turnips while the days get short and dark and, oh, probably, we'll have a hard winter as well.

    And if we do get an extension the Tories will burst into flames and Farage will be PM with Anne Widdecombe as Minister for Squashing Diversity and Annunziata handing out food parcels to the poor like a heroine in a Victorian novel. While Mr Corbyn thinks about doing something possibly, maybe, once a committee has been held.

    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?


    Life will go on you know.
    Yes it can - and do so in a pretty rubbish way. And having lived through it in the past I don't really want to repeat the experience or have my children endure it.
    Well leaving aside the affects of brexit, wait til the marxists get in .... then we really will be in the shit.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited June 2019
    Drivel from Johnson. He doesn't even have a coherent position that you might take issue with. It's just a stream of words to fill a space and waste everyone's time.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited June 2019
    Rees-Mogg really has revealed himself to be a big old crybaby, hasn't he? I remember when his mask slipped after the no confidence vote in May and he started inventing constitutional norms and whinging about the result (whether one thinks the result was a positive one or not), and now he acts like how dare people try to stop the destined prophet of Brexit from doing what he wants. I've no time for left wing hate mobs (or right wing hate mobs for that matter), but given how he and those like him have been among the most difficult in all of this, have shot themselves inthe foot repeatedly, he really comes off as more than a little pathetic.

    Boris has more dignity than Rees-Mogg - there's a reason the former actually managed to make it to high office, for however long. Like him or loathe him there's more to him than a posh accent and an ill fitting suit.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    HYUFD said:

    If Boris does actually become PM, Brexit will burn him up like the last two PMs.

    Boris actually believes in Brexit unlike the last two PMs and will actually commit to deliver it, Deal or No Deal
    Boris believes in Boris ! That’s it!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    FF43 said:

    Drivel from Johnson. He doesn't even have a coherent position that you might take issue with. It's just a stream of words to fill a space and waste everyone's time.



    Yep.

    His base can't see it though.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I give up. The Tories are going to have a 4-week campaign and then some of their MPs are going to say that the chosen leader is an arse in whom they don't have any confidence. And then we'll have yet another GE and waste more time and probably end up with another messy hung Parliament and still won't be any closer to having done any of the practical stuff needed actually to leave the EU on any sort of basis.

    And then, presumably, panic and ask for an extension or maybe not but leave without any relevant legislation into some sort of legal no-man's land two months before Xmas when all the warehouses will be full of Chinese tat to cheer us all up at the likelihood that the only veg available at reasonable prices will be turnips while the days get short and dark and, oh, probably, we'll have a hard winter as well.

    And if we do get an extension the Tories will burst into flames and Farage will be PM with Anne Widdecombe as Minister for Squashing Diversity and Annunziata handing out food parcels to the poor like a heroine in a Victorian novel. While Mr Corbyn thinks about doing something possibly, maybe, once a committee has been held.

    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?


    Life will go on you know.
    Yes it can - and do so in a pretty rubbish way. And having lived through it in the past I don't really want to repeat the experience or have my children endure it.
    Well leaving aside the affects of brexit, wait til the marxists get in .... then we really will be in the shit.
    The brexiteers, particularly the no-dealers, are making the prospect of marxists in power ever more likely. They are too stupid to see this.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    FF43 said:

    Drivel from Johnson. He doesn't even have a coherent position that you might take issue with. It's just a stream of words to fill a space and waste everyone's time.

    That seems like the right strategy given that he has to get past the membership of the Conservative Party, who realistically aren't going to vote for anything coherent and non-disastrous. Taking a coherent position that appealed to these people would be bad, to put it mildly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Oh, bless...


    "Jeremy Hunt has announced plans for £15 billion of extra defence spending as he took advantage of Boris Johnson’s troubles to forge ahead with policy announcements."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/24/jeremy-hunt-pledges-extra-15bn-defence-ensure-britain-can-guard/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I give up. The Tories are going to have a 4-week campaign and then some of their MPs are going to say that the chosen leader is an arse in whom they don't have any confidence. And then we'll have yet another GE and waste more time and probably end up with another messy hung Parliament and still won't be any closer to having done any of the practical stuff needed actually to leave the EU on any sort of basis.

    And then, presumably, panic and ask for an extension or maybe not but leave without any relevant legislation into some sort of legal no-man's land two months before Xmas when all the warehouses will be full of Chinese tat to cheer us all up at the likelihood that the only veg available at reasonable prices will be turnips while the days get short and dark and, oh, probably, we'll have a hard winter as well.

    And if we do get an extension the Tories will burst into flames and Farage will be PM with Anne Widdecombe as Minister for Squashing Diversity and Annunziata handing out food parcels to the poor like a heroine in a Victorian novel. While Mr Corbyn thinks about doing something possibly, maybe, once a committee has been held.

    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?


    Life will go on you know.
    Yes it can - and do so in a pretty rubbish way. And having lived through it in the past I don't really want to repeat the experience or have my children endure it.
    Well leaving aside the affects of brexit, wait til the marxists get in .... then we really will be in the shit.
    The brexiteers, particularly the no-dealers, are making the prospect of marxists in power ever more likely. They are too stupid to see this.
    I'd say you were wrong about them not realising it, and that they just don't care, but these are the people who openly admitted through their actions in voting for MV3 (I exclude the spartans) the very obvious fact which they had been told many many times, that it might be that or no Brexit.

    That really did break me, that moment. That people who claimed to believe in Brexit, and obviously think of themselves as very bright, finally admitted right at the end that what they had been told, that the WA was Brexit, and that it might be the only Brexit they could get, was true. And therefore that they had been wrong for months and months and months.

    Whether one thinks they are wrong or not, at least spartans and the philip thompsons of the world believed the WA was not really Brexit. Boris and JRM and the others accept that it was, but still did not notice it until it was too late. And they admit that!
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Cheers to all re LBJ.

    Original quote as according to Caro appears to be "You've learned to count since I left up there," as said to Sen. Harry Byrd (23 Jan 1964 and re vote management over tax cuts and civil rights).

    But if you search for "first rule of politics lbj" or "rule of politics count" then you get a stream of UK political journalism only. So the quote seems to have been transmuted in UK political discussion in a way it has not in America, and at some point I suspect a UK political figure or journalist has misquoted and everyone else has copied. The "rule of politics" part is clearly an addition, though "learn to count" is very close to the spirit of the original.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    I do love the name Annunziata.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I give up. The Tories are going to have a 4-week campaign and then some of their MPs are going to say that the chosen leader is an arse in whom they don't have any confidence. And then we'll have yet another GE and waste more time and probably end up with another messy hung Parliament and still won't be any closer to having done any of the practical stuff needed actually to leave the EU on any sort of basis.

    And then, presumably, panic and ask for an extension or maybe not but leave without any relevant legislation into some sort of legal no-man's land two months before Xmas when all the warehouses will be full of Chinese tat to cheer us all up at the likelihood that the only veg available at reasonable prices will be turnips while the days get short and dark and, oh, probably, we'll have a hard winter as well.

    And if we do get an extension the Tories will burst into flames and Farage will be PM with Anne Widdecombe as Minister for Squashing Diversity and Annunziata handing out food parcels to the poor like a heroine in a Victorian novel. While Mr Corbyn thinks about doing something possibly, maybe, once a committee has been held.

    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?


    Life will go on you know.
    Yes it can - and do so in a pretty rubbish way. And having lived through it in the past I don't really want to repeat the experience or have my children endure it.
    Well leaving aside the affects of brexit, wait til the marxists get in .... then we really will be in the shit.
    To you maybe . I have zero time for Corbyn but would rather live in a country with him as PM than a right wing capitalism on steroids cesspit under a bunch of ERG nutjobs holding a new PM as hostage .
  • El_SidEl_Sid Posts: 145

    Parliament should all get together right now and pass a law changing the way PMs get chosen so Parliament changes the PM by voting for a new one, instead of this ridiculous roundabout thing where unnamed advisors take soundings and communicate to The Queen the general vibe of what parliament would might do if it had a chance to vote against them.

    That won't work - it means that the default is no PM rather than having a PM at all times, albeit one that at times is history. Your suggestion would bring even more chaos to the situation.

    The whole "best placed to command the confidence of the House" thing is a horrible fudge, but it's less bad than any of the alternatives.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    There's more than a whiff of 2017 about all this. Time to top up on Jegzy Hunt.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    Oh, bless...


    "Jeremy Hunt has announced plans for £15 billion of extra defence spending as he took advantage of Boris Johnson’s troubles to forge ahead with policy announcements."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/24/jeremy-hunt-pledges-extra-15bn-defence-ensure-britain-can-guard/

    Bung to the Americans.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited June 2019
    Liz Truss auditioning for a part in Boris's first cabinet (She's hoping for chief whip)


    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/05/02/11/12997944-6984377-image-a-2_1556791577546.jpg
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited June 2019
    I thought Boris came across quite well in his interview with Laura?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    El_Sid said:

    Parliament should all get together right now and pass a law changing the way PMs get chosen so Parliament changes the PM by voting for a new one, instead of this ridiculous roundabout thing where unnamed advisors take soundings and communicate to The Queen the general vibe of what parliament would might do if it had a chance to vote against them.

    That won't work - it means that the default is no PM rather than having a PM at all times, albeit one that at times is history. Your suggestion would bring even more chaos to the situation.

    The whole "best placed to command the confidence of the House" thing is a horrible fudge, but it's less bad than any of the alternatives.
    What I suggested was that you don't remove the previous PM until you vote in a new one, so no, the default isn't no PM unless the previous PM spontaneously combusts. Spontaneous combustion is better handled by having a deputy and/or established line of succession.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I give up. The Tories are going to have a 4-week campaign and then some of their MPs are going to say that the chosen leader is an arse in whom they don't have any confidence. And then we'll have yet another GE and waste more time and probably end up with another messy hung Parliament and still won't be any closer to having done any of the practical stuff needed actually to leave the EU on any sort of basis.

    And then, presumably, panic and ask for an extension or maybe not but leave without any relevant legislation into some sort of legal no-man's land two months before Xmas when all the warehouses will be full of Chinese tat to cheer us all up at the likelihood that the only veg available at reasonable prices will be turnips while the days get short and dark and, oh, probably, we'll have a hard winter as well.

    And if we do get an extension the Tories will burst into flames and Farage will be PM with Anne Widdecombe as Minister for Squashing Diversity and Annunziata handing out food parcels to the poor like a heroine in a Victorian novel. While Mr Corbyn thinks about doing something possibly, maybe, once a committee has been held.

    This is all going to go so terribly well, isn't it?


    Life will go on you know.
    Yes it can - and do so in a pretty rubbish way. And having lived through it in the past I don't really want to repeat the experience or have my children endure it.
    Well leaving aside the affects of brexit, wait til the marxists get in .... then we really will be in the shit.
    The brexiteers, particularly the no-dealers, are making the prospect of marxists in power ever more likely. They are too stupid to see this.
    I'd say you were wrong about them not realising it, and that they just don't care, but these are the people who openly admitted through their actions in voting for MV3 (I exclude the spartans) the very obvious fact which they had been told many many times, that it might be that or no Brexit.

    That really did break me, that moment. That people who claimed to believe in Brexit, and obviously think of themselves as very bright, finally admitted right at the end that what they had been told, that the WA was Brexit, and that it might be the only Brexit they could get, was true. And therefore that they had been wrong for months and months and months.

    Whether one thinks they are wrong or not, at least spartans and the philip thompsons of the world believed the WA was not really Brexit. Boris and JRM and the others accept that it was, but still did not notice it until it was too late. And they admit that!
    Point of order....there is some doubt whether Philip Thompson is of this world.....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited June 2019

    FF43 said:

    Drivel from Johnson. He doesn't even have a coherent position that you might take issue with. It's just a stream of words to fill a space and waste everyone's time.

    That seems like the right strategy given that he has to get past the membership of the Conservative Party, who realistically aren't going to vote for anything coherent and non-disastrous. Taking a coherent position that appealed to these people would be bad, to put it mildly.
    I have changed my mind. I thought Johnson had a Machiavellian plan to exasperate the EU so much that they throw us out without a deal, which he could then blame them for. There would be some sense to that evil plan but now I think Johnson a genuine fantasist. The Comical Ali of Brexit.

    We will see.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    FF43 said:

    Drivel from Johnson. He doesn't even have a coherent position that you might take issue with. It's just a stream of words to fill a space and waste everyone's time.



    Just watched the interview. The man is a fuckwits fuckwit.

    The thing is being a fuckwit is that it is like being dead, it is only a problem for other people. Fuckwits don't know that they are fuckwits.


  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    I'd say you were wrong about them not realising it, and that they just don't care, but these are the people who openly admitted through their actions in voting for MV3 (I exclude the spartans) the very obvious fact which they had been told many many times, that it might be that or no Brexit.

    That really did break me, that moment. That people who claimed to believe in Brexit, and obviously think of themselves as very bright, finally admitted right at the end that what they had been told, that the WA was Brexit, and that it might be the only Brexit they could get, was true. And therefore that they had been wrong for months and months and months.

    Whether one thinks they are wrong or not, at least spartans and the philip thompsons of the world believed the WA was not really Brexit. Boris and JRM and the others accept that it was, but still did not notice it until it was too late. And they admit that!

    Point of order....there is some doubt whether Philip Thompson is of this world.....
    Tad harsh. Last I checked I am.

    My objection to the WA is not that it is "not Brexit". My objection is that it is "not democratic". Big difference.

    I have a philosophical objection to terminating democracy under any circumstances.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited June 2019
    GIN1138 said:

    I thought Boris came across quite well in his interview with Laura?

    You were obviously drinking or had extremely low expectations! . Rather than trash the whole thing I already said earlier , I have no problem with him not wanting to talk about his private life .

    As for the rest of the interview it was tragic.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341
    TGOHF said:
    Al long as he doesn't expect to be fighting the next election as a Conservative candidate.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Roger said:

    Liz Truss auditioning for a part in Boris's first cabinet (She's hoping for chief whip)


    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/05/02/11/12997944-6984377-image-a-2_1556791577546.jpg

    Is there a post for 'Stupid Trouser Wearer'?

    Pretty sure Henry VIII had such a post.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Danny565 said:

    There's more than a whiff of 2017 about all this. Time to top up on Jegzy Hunt.

    Brave.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341
    Xtrain said:

    TGOHF said:
    As long as he doesn't expect to be fighting the next election as a Conservative candidate.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    GIN1138 said:

    I thought Boris came across quite well in his interview with Laura?

    Not really. I think he has very poor media strategy, too much hypocrisy and some very strange language about what is going on in his head!

    Boris does not come across as being a potential PM. Indeed people often refer to polishing a turd. Well Boris has no shine: He is just shit!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    Cyclefree said:



    The brexiteers, particularly the no-dealers, are making the prospect of marxists in power ever more likely. They are too stupid to see this.

    The thing is, all parties have a limited period in government before they're exhausted. At that point, it's in their and the country's interest they have a period in opposition to sort themselves out. The Tories had it in 1992, which was an unwise election to win. Labour had it in 2010, and were lucky not to win that - we were completeley out of ideas, and running only on "Don't let the Tories in". I was a candidate in 2010, and nearly held my seat against the swing, but I can't remember a single positive argument.

    And the Tories have it now, big time. It's obvious to everyone that they're worn out, and it's only "we must achiebve Brexit" and "we mustn't let Corbyn in" that is keeping them going at all.

    But at some point, unless the Tories hope to rule forever, there will be a period of left-wing government. Corbyn, dependent on LibDems and SNP, is going to be a strictly limited experiment for now. That shouldn't be the end of the world for the Tories - on the contrary, if it's as bad as they think, they will be elected back next time. Perhaps what they really worry about is that it won't be as bad as they predict?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    kle4 said:

    Rees-Mogg really has revealed himself to be a big old crybaby, hasn't he? I remember when his mask slipped after the no confidence vote in May and he started inventing constitutional norms and whinging about the result (whether one thinks the result was a positive one or not), and now he acts like how dare people try to stop the destined prophet of Brexit from doing what he wants. I've no time for left wing hate mobs (or right wing hate mobs for that matter), but given how he and those like him have been among the most difficult in all of this, have shot themselves inthe foot repeatedly, he really comes off as more than a little pathetic.

    Boris has more dignity than Rees-Mogg - there's a reason the former actually managed to make it to high office, for however long. Like him or loathe him there's more to him than a posh accent and an ill fitting suit.
    Seriously are you pissed?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I have said all along there are two very easy ways to make the backstop democratic.

    Option 1. Let the people of NI choose to join it, let them at periodic elections continue to choose to remain in it and give them the right to terminate it at a time of their choosing. Not controlled by London, Dublin, Strasbourg, Brussels or anywhere else but the voters of Northern Ireland.

    Option 2: Keep the backstop as indefinite but for its duration the voters of NI should continue to be represented at all levels of the EU. They should keep their MEPs with full voting rights and for the duration of the backstop Arlene Foster (or her successor) should take the place of the UK Prime Minister in the European Council with full rights including the right of veto.

    Terminating democracy and not giving voters a choice is not a valid option. No matter what level of inconvenience or even death may be the result of not terminating democracy.
  • El_SidEl_Sid Posts: 145

    El_Sid said:

    Parliament should all get together right now and pass a law changing the way PMs get chosen so Parliament changes the PM by voting for a new one, instead of this ridiculous roundabout thing where unnamed advisors take soundings and communicate to The Queen the general vibe of what parliament would might do if it had a chance to vote against them.

    That won't work - it means that the default is no PM rather than having a PM at all times, albeit one that at times is history. Your suggestion would bring even more chaos to the situation.

    The whole "best placed to command the confidence of the House" thing is a horrible fudge, but it's less bad than any of the alternatives.
    What I suggested was that you don't remove the previous PM until you vote in a new one, so no, the default isn't no PM unless the previous PM spontaneously combusts. Spontaneous combustion is better handled by having a deputy and/or established line of succession.
    There are still situations when the PM will be removed - death/incapacity whilst in office, or standing down at an election - but a hung Parliament is unable to make a positive decision to elect a successor. Having a softer requirement of "best placed to command the confidence of the House" is far from ideal, but would mean that at least _somebody_ was in No 10.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    GIN1138 said:

    I thought Boris came across quite well in his interview with Laura?

    Yes of course he did.....time for your lie down. Nurse will be with you in a minute.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414


    Cyclefree said:



    The brexiteers, particularly the no-dealers, are making the prospect of marxists in power ever more likely. They are too stupid to see this.

    The thing is, all parties have a limited period in government before they're exhausted. At that point, it's in their and the country's interest they have a period in opposition to sort themselves out. The Tories had it in 1992, which was an unwise election to win. Labour had it in 2010, and were lucky not to win that - we were completeley out of ideas, and running only on "Don't let the Tories in". I was a candidate in 2010, and nearly held my seat against the swing, but I can't remember a single positive argument.

    And the Tories have it now, big time. It's obvious to everyone that they're worn out, and it's only "we must achiebve Brexit" and "we mustn't let Corbyn in" that is keeping them going at all.

    But at some point, unless the Tories hope to rule forever, there will be a period of left-wing government. Corbyn, dependent on LibDems and SNP, is going to be a strictly limited experiment for now. That shouldn't be the end of the world for the Tories - on the contrary, if it's as bad as they think, they will be elected back next time. Perhaps what they really worry about is that it won't be as bad as they predict?
    Yes. I do remember some Tories confidently asserting they'd be back next time in 97. A Corbyn government reliant on SNP and LDs would be a very different beast. PR, for a start, would be a serious possibility.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1143270827384877056

    Have you spent all the fees from Iranian TV Jezza? Or do you have a few quid left in the old bank account?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Roger said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I thought Boris came across quite well in his interview with Laura?

    Yes of course he did.....time for your lie down. Nurse will be with you in a minute.
    We're at the point now where Boris only has to walk down the street and everyone has an attack of the vapors and the whole world falls apart...

    The selectoarte will be very pleased with what he had to say here IMO but as ever time will tell.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    El_Sid said:

    El_Sid said:

    Parliament should all get together right now and pass a law changing the way PMs get chosen so Parliament changes the PM by voting for a new one, instead of this ridiculous roundabout thing where unnamed advisors take soundings and communicate to The Queen the general vibe of what parliament would might do if it had a chance to vote against them.

    That won't work - it means that the default is no PM rather than having a PM at all times, albeit one that at times is history. Your suggestion would bring even more chaos to the situation.

    The whole "best placed to command the confidence of the House" thing is a horrible fudge, but it's less bad than any of the alternatives.
    What I suggested was that you don't remove the previous PM until you vote in a new one, so no, the default isn't no PM unless the previous PM spontaneously combusts. Spontaneous combustion is better handled by having a deputy and/or established line of succession.
    There are still situations when the PM will be removed - death/incapacity whilst in office, or standing down at an election - but a hung Parliament is unable to make a positive decision to elect a successor. Having a softer requirement of "best placed to command the confidence of the House" is far from ideal, but would mean that at least _somebody_ was in No 10.
    Presumably would have it like the speaker vote where there are candidates and the lowest vote eliminated until you get to one left who wins.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited June 2019
    dixiedean said:


    Cyclefree said:



    The brexiteers, particularly the no-dealers, are making the prospect of marxists in power ever more likely. They are too stupid to see this.

    The thing is, all parties have a limited period in government before they're exhausted. At that point, it's in their and the country's interest they have a period in opposition to sort themselves out. The Tories had it in 1992, which was an unwise election to win. Labour had it in 2010, and were lucky not to win that - we were completeley out of ideas, and running only on "Don't let the Tories in". I was a candidate in 2010, and nearly held my seat against the swing, but I can't remember a single positive argument.

    And the Tories have it now, big time. It's obvious to everyone that they're worn out, and it's only "we must achiebve Brexit" and "we mustn't let Corbyn in" that is keeping them going at all.

    But at some point, unless the Tories hope to rule forever, there will be a period of left-wing government. Corbyn, dependent on LibDems and SNP, is going to be a strictly limited experiment for now. That shouldn't be the end of the world for the Tories - on the contrary, if it's as bad as they think, they will be elected back next time. Perhaps what they really worry about is that it won't be as bad as they predict?
    Yes. I do remember some Tories confidently asserting they'd be back next time in 97. A Corbyn government reliant on SNP and LDs would be a very different beast. PR, for a start, would be a serious possibility.
    They had to say that though as it would depress their supporters. I am aware of senior politicians saying publically they can win when their party machine is only targeting enough seats for them to be in opposition and suffering a very heavy defeat. If only voters realised what really goes on!
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited June 2019

    Corbyn, dependent on LibDems and SNP, is going to be a strictly limited experiment for now. That shouldn't be the end of the world for the Tories - on the contrary, if it's as bad as they think, they will be elected back next time. Perhaps what they really worry about is that it won't be as bad as they predict?

    The problem at the moment is that normal political rules - mess up and get thrown out on your ear - don't necessarily seem to apply because the polarisation of the electorate means that the voters have priorities other than competence.

    So, from a Tory perspective the nightmare scenario is that Corbyn gets into power, it's really truly awful, but Corbyn finds enough wedge issues to keep his voters onside and stays in power.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited June 2019

    I have said all along there are two very easy ways to make the backstop democratic.

    Option 1. Let the people of NI choose to join it, let them at periodic elections continue to choose to remain in it and give them the right to terminate it at a time of their choosing. Not controlled by London, Dublin, Strasbourg, Brussels or anywhere else but the voters of Northern Ireland.

    Option 2: Keep the backstop as indefinite but for its duration the voters of NI should continue to be represented at all levels of the EU. They should keep their MEPs with full voting rights and for the duration of the backstop Arlene Foster (or her successor) should take the place of the UK Prime Minister in the European Council with full rights including the right of veto.

    Terminating democracy and not giving voters a choice is not a valid option. No matter what level of inconvenience or even death may be the result of not terminating democracy.

    No sensible person gives a shit about Irish backstops except completely bonkers Tories with nothing interesting to occupy their minds. Why not go to an art galley or even a film. Have you any idea how long it is since the Palestinians had any say over their governance at all? Go and demontrate for them. It actually affects their lives.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited June 2019

    I have said all along there are two very easy ways to make the backstop democratic.

    Option 1. Let the people of NI choose to join it, let them at periodic elections continue to choose to remain in it and give them the right to terminate it at a time of their choosing. Not controlled by London, Dublin, Strasbourg, Brussels or anywhere else but the voters of Northern Ireland.

    Option 2: Keep the backstop as indefinite but for its duration the voters of NI should continue to be represented at all levels of the EU. They should keep their MEPs with full voting rights and for the duration of the backstop Arlene Foster (or her successor) should take the place of the UK Prime Minister in the European Council with full rights including the right of veto.

    Terminating democracy and not giving voters a choice is not a valid option. No matter what level of inconvenience or even death may be the result of not terminating democracy.

    Option 1 is fair enough but that means it will be definite because there will never be a majority to get rid of it .

    Your second option I’ll put down to it being late and you had a few drinks ! You seriously think the EU are going to allow what could end up being a puppet for Westminster to veto things , a non EU nation having a veto .

    You seem to be very concerned about terminating democracy but don’t see much problem with the government inflicting a no deal on the country without a mandate .

    Were voters promised by Vote Leave the UK would leave with a deal and an orderly departure ?

    Would they have won by saying we’ll leave without one?
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341

    Corbyn, dependent on LibDems and SNP, is going to be a strictly limited experiment for now. That shouldn't be the end of the world for the Tories - on the contrary, if it's as bad as they think, they will be elected back next time. Perhaps what they really worry about is that it won't be as bad as they predict?

    The problem at the moment is that normal political rules - mess up and get thrown out on your ear - don't necessarily seem to apply because the polarisation of the electorate means that the voters have priorities other than competence.

    So, from a Tory perspective the nightmare scenario is that Corbyn gets into power, it's really truly awful, but Corbyn finds enough wedge issues to keep his voters onside and stays in power.
    What you're forgetting is if the Tories mess this up they're history. They get replaced by the Brexit P
    arty
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Yep. Terrible headlines.

    Expect the dead cat tomorrow.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited June 2019
    nico67 said:

    I have said all along there are two very easy ways to make the backstop democratic.

    Option 1. Let the people of NI choose to join it, let them at periodic elections continue to choose to remain in it and give them the right to terminate it at a time of their choosing. Not controlled by London, Dublin, Strasbourg, Brussels or anywhere else but the voters of Northern Ireland.

    Option 2: Keep the backstop as indefinite but for its duration the voters of NI should continue to be represented at all levels of the EU. They should keep their MEPs with full voting rights and for the duration of the backstop Arlene Foster (or her successor) should take the place of the UK Prime Minister in the European Council with full rights including the right of veto.

    Terminating democracy and not giving voters a choice is not a valid option. No matter what level of inconvenience or even death may be the result of not terminating democracy.

    Option 1 is fair enough but that means it will be definite because there will never be a majority to get rid of it .

    Your second option I’ll put down to it being late and you had a few drinks ! You seriously think the EU are going to allow what could end up being a puppet for Westminster to veto things , a non EU nation having a veto .

    You seem to be very concerned about terminating democracy but don’t see much problem with the government inflicting a no deal on the country without a mandate .

    Were voters promised by Vote Leave the UK would leave with a deal and an orderly departure ?

    Would they have won by saying we’ll leave without one?
    Voters were asked "Leave or Remain". Both options are clear. Leave is with or without a deal. Simples.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Corbyn, dependent on LibDems and SNP, is going to be a strictly limited experiment for now. That shouldn't be the end of the world for the Tories - on the contrary, if it's as bad as they think, they will be elected back next time. Perhaps what they really worry about is that it won't be as bad as they predict?

    The problem at the moment is that normal political rules - mess up and get thrown out on your ear - don't necessarily seem to apply because the polarisation of the electorate means that the voters have priorities other than competence.

    So, from a Tory perspective the nightmare scenario is that Corbyn gets into power, it's really truly awful, but Corbyn finds enough wedge issues to keep his voters onside and stays in power.
    While the nightmare for leftwingers is Boris or Farage get into power and find enough wedge issues to keep their voters onside and stay in power
This discussion has been closed.