Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » GE2015 could be decided by whether enough people have felt

13

Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    Sean_F said:


    if someone takes the view that they'd actually like to express support for the party they favour, rather than going for the lesser of two evils, that's a rational choice.

    tim knows deep down Miliband isn't going to get a majority of seats. His calculation is that coalition beckons and that the LibDems will be faced with a tough choice - support the party with most seats - Labour - or the one supported by most voters - the Tories. So he is trying to get as many people to not vote Tory by saying it is stupid in a seat where Tories can't win. Expect more of this line in coming months....
  • ITN News Index contd.

    Miliband Energy Price freeze - net agree: +38

    Little competition in energy sector: +48

    Prefer scrap green taxes to energy price freeze: +24
  • Roger said:

    Tyndall. One day everyone might see the world as you do but I wouldn't hold your breath and while you're waiting if you weren't so bitter you might have a more pleasant time.

    I have a lovely time roger. I have not a bitter bone in my body as my life is exceptionally good thank you. Indeed I count myself as one of the most fortunate people in our fair land.

    The icing on the cake is that I get to rile you on a regular basis. Everyone needs a hobby of course :-)
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    What a surprise.

    You and Frank are setting up a straw man here. It's UKIP policy to bring back a grammar school in every town, not tory policy.

    I'm a thatcherite tory but I don't really like the idea of grammar schools myself. It isn';t the kids who go to the grammars, but those left with the stigma of the secondary modern that I don;t like.

    Nothing wrong with comps where kids of all backgrounds can mix, so long as there is discipline, streaming and setting to let academic kids get on with that and those with other talents develop those. No stigma, same uniform.

    In fact I feel privileged to have attended a comp because it gives you an insight into society that you would never get by going grammar or private. An insight many labour politicians clearly lack.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Roger said:

    @Carlotta

    I missed that he'd died. Definitely one of the best. The John Arlott of politics. I seldom agree that the Bbc has a left wing bias but I always thought he might have or at least a dislike of Thatcher like most thinking folk at the time.

    I seem to remember John Sergeant saying in his book that Cole was a committed socialist. However it wasn't really the done thing at the BBC to talk about your own political views.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bobajob said:

    Anna Soubry is a very left wing Tory - she must be among the most left wing in the party. A formidable opponent for Nick in an urban seat.

    Nick's probably the more right-wing candidate of the two.
    Nick supported Gordon Brown - no wonder the voters turfed him out.
    His vote share only dropped 3.4% between 2005 and 2010. I'm not saying that's down to PB, but he's not to be underestimated whatever you think of his politics.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    taffys said:

    What a surprise.

    You and Frank are setting up a straw man here. It's UKIP policy to bring back a grammar school in every town, not tory policy.

    I'm a thatcherite tory but I don't really like the idea of grammar schools myself. It isn';t the kids who go to the grammars, but those left with the stigma of the secondary modern that I don;t like.

    Nothing wrong with comps where kids of all backgrounds can mix, so long as there is discipline, streaming and setting to let academic kids get on with that and those with other talents develop those. No stigma, same uniform.

    In fact I feel privileged to have attended a comp because it gives you an insight into society that you would never get by going grammar or private. An insight many labour politicians clearly lack.

    Mrs T was herself opposed to grammars, was she not? I agree, anyway. I'm instinctively in favour of grammars on the basis they allow clever kids from poor backgrounds to excel, until I think what if my boy had a bad year and failed the 11+? Eleven is too young to set the destiny of a child and if not then, when? Streaming and setting is a better option as it allows kids something to aspire to throughout their school lives.

    What does annoy me is when schools either a) hold back clever kids or b) teach them something as fact which is at best debatable - my middle school geography teacher taught that there were five continents, counting the Americas as one and disregarding Antarctica. My father told me to do my homework assuming there were seven continents and I was marked down and deemed a troublemaker.

    But that was the 1980s. I suspect the advent of the internet prevents such suffocation today.
  • Roger said:

    @Carlotta

    I missed that he'd died. Definitely one of the best. The John Arlott of politics. I seldom agree that the Bbc has a left wing bias but I always thought he might have or at least a dislike of Thatcher like most thinking folk at the time.

    I seem to remember John Sergeant saying in his book that Cole was a committed socialist. However it wasn't really the done thing at the BBC to talk about your own political views.
    Since he was the former deputy editor of the Guardian and the Observer, it seems a reasonable bet that his views might have been left of centre.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Sean_F said:


    if someone takes the view that they'd actually like to express support for the party they favour, rather than going for the lesser of two evils, that's a rational choice.

    tim knows deep down Miliband isn't going to get a majority of seats. His calculation is that coalition beckons and that the LibDems will be faced with a tough choice - support the party with most seats - Labour - or the one supported by most voters - the Tories. So he is trying to get as many people to not vote Tory by saying it is stupid in a seat where Tories can't win. Expect more of this line in coming months....
    Do you really believe that?!
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    tim said:

    "Legalising same-sex marriage was "damaging" for the Conservative Party and was pushed through too quickly by David Cameron, a Cabinet minister has said.
    Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, said he and other Conservatives were left "shocked" by the "tumultuous" pace of change and would have preferred for it to have "gradually taken root"....

    "I prefer my change to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary, and you know I got myself quite comfortable with the institution of civil partnership."


    Thats good of him, I'm sure he's "got himself quite comfortable" with mixed race couples as well, so they can stop worrying.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10435540/Legalising-same-sex-marriage-was-damaging-for-Tories-Philip-Hammond-says.html

    What a prick. Give it up guys, it's over.
  • taffys said:

    What a surprise.

    You and Frank are setting up a straw man here. It's UKIP policy to bring back a grammar school in every town, not tory policy.

    I'm a thatcherite tory but I don't really like the idea of grammar schools myself. It isn';t the kids who go to the grammars, but those left with the stigma of the secondary modern that I don;t like.

    Nothing wrong with comps where kids of all backgrounds can mix, so long as there is discipline, streaming and setting to let academic kids get on with that and those with other talents develop those. No stigma, same uniform.

    In fact I feel privileged to have attended a comp because it gives you an insight into society that you would never get by going grammar or private. An insight many labour politicians clearly lack.

    I am afraid that whilst in theory the Comprehensive system might seem appealing. In practice it has been a very poor system that has dragged down many otherwise bright children who might have flourished in a Grammar School. As far as the comprehensive system goes We are all secondary moderns now.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Sean_F said:

    Bobajob said:

    Anna Soubry is a very left wing Tory - she must be among the most left wing in the party. A formidable opponent for Nick in an urban seat.

    Nick's probably the more right-wing candidate of the two.
    Perhaps so. She is so left wing it's hard to believe she is in the Tory party...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    taffys said:

    What a surprise.

    You and Frank are setting up a straw man here. It's UKIP policy to bring back a grammar school in every town, not tory policy.

    I'm a thatcherite tory but I don't really like the idea of grammar schools myself. It isn';t the kids who go to the grammars, but those left with the stigma of the secondary modern that I don;t like.

    Nothing wrong with comps where kids of all backgrounds can mix, so long as there is discipline, streaming and setting to let academic kids get on with that and those with other talents develop those. No stigma, same uniform.

    In fact I feel privileged to have attended a comp because it gives you an insight into society that you would never get by going grammar or private. An insight many labour politicians clearly lack.

    David Willets tried to make these kind of arguments about Grammars when he was Cameron's education spokesman. The response of the Party was apocalyptic and he lost his job. It seems as if many in the Party didn't want these facts pointed out to them.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Bobajob said:

    taffys said:

    What a surprise.

    You and Frank are setting up a straw man here. It's UKIP policy to bring back a grammar school in every town, not tory policy.

    I'm a thatcherite tory but I don't really like the idea of grammar schools myself. It isn';t the kids who go to the grammars, but those left with the stigma of the secondary modern that I don;t like.

    Nothing wrong with comps where kids of all backgrounds can mix, so long as there is discipline, streaming and setting to let academic kids get on with that and those with other talents develop those. No stigma, same uniform.

    In fact I feel privileged to have attended a comp because it gives you an insight into society that you would never get by going grammar or private. An insight many labour politicians clearly lack.

    Mrs T was herself opposed to grammars, was she not?
    Indeed she was. In fact the grammar schoool I attended went comprehensive in 1973 at her behest, much against the wishes of parents.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''What does annoy me is when schools either a) hold back clever kids or b) teach them something as fact which is at best debatable.''

    Agreed. You have to be careful of lauding academic achievements too much and creating an 'elite' stream. Its a balancing act.
  • Bobajob said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bobajob said:

    Anna Soubry is a very left wing Tory - she must be among the most left wing in the party. A formidable opponent for Nick in an urban seat.

    Nick's probably the more right-wing candidate of the two.
    Perhaps so. She is so left wing it's hard to believe she is in the Tory party...
    I suspect that says more about you than either Soubry or the Tory party.....

  • Bobajob said:

    tim said:

    "Legalising same-sex marriage was "damaging" for the Conservative Party and was pushed through too quickly by David Cameron, a Cabinet minister has said.
    Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, said he and other Conservatives were left "shocked" by the "tumultuous" pace of change and would have preferred for it to have "gradually taken root"....

    "I prefer my change to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary, and you know I got myself quite comfortable with the institution of civil partnership."


    Thats good of him, I'm sure he's "got himself quite comfortable" with mixed race couples as well, so they can stop worrying.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10435540/Legalising-same-sex-marriage-was-damaging-for-Tories-Philip-Hammond-says.html

    What a prick. Give it up guys, it's over.
    Absolutely. It is a ludicrous argument anyway given that the whole process from no recognition through civil partnerships to marriage took almost a decade it is hardly as if it all happened overnight. The change in status for gay couples is perhaps the only truly good thing that Blair and Cameron between them have achieved.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT Just out of curiosity - how many other posters hang out on other message forums?

    I do re US TV shows and it gets a bit mind-bending when popping between tribal arguments between Lefties and Righties - then the various factions who side with one character over another on TV.

    I'm sure one day I'll get confused and suggest Crowley the King of Hell should be the next leader of the LDs...
  • I am not keen on grammar schools in the sense of the absolute cut off at age 11. What dismays me though is the lack of support to children whoare intelligent and diligent but not rich in the state system. Whilst not advocating an apartheid in education I do think the attitude and emphasis in comp schools needs to change from controlling or 'helping' disruptive or non- keen pupils to helping intelligent and especially diligent ones.
    Streaming helps as does bringing in specialists to help suitable pupils . The most important help though would be a change in attitude and mindset
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Carlotta

    How so?
  • Roger said:

    @Carlotta

    I missed that he'd died. Definitely one of the best. The John Arlott of politics. I seldom agree that the Bbc has a left wing bias but I always thought he might have or at least a dislike of Thatcher like most thinking folk at the time.

    I seem to remember John Sergeant saying in his book that Cole was a committed socialist. However it wasn't really the done thing at the BBC to talk about your own political views.
    leftie.. at the bbc?.. cor he must have felt right out of place..
  • Maybe we just need more grammar schools??!! I'd love to see them back, but only if a way can be found for entry to them not to be gamed. More realistic is stricter streaming across more subjects in Comps.

    I found that link that Carola put up to the PISA findings on our private schools very interesting the other week. Turns out that they are not as good as we have been told:

    The latest edition of PISA in Focus “Private schools: Who benefits?” shows that pupils who attend private schools tend to perform significantly better in PISA tests than pupils in public schools but pupils in public schools with a similar socio-economic background as private schools tend to achieve the same results. OECD research found that although the typical private school pupil outperforms the typical public school student by 30 points on the PISA reading score, three-quarters of that 30-point difference could be attributed to the private schools’ ability to attract socio-economically advantaged pupils. These schools are more likely to attract better-performing pupils and greater resources. In the UK that gap between private schools and public schools is even greater, but OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points.
    http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2011/08/private-schools-don’t-help-raise-overall-performance-level-of-school-systems-says-oecd/#sthash.dlecZIJf.dpuf

  • If only they did for 'middle class' - that might reconcile Hodges & Jones....meanwhile we'll have to settle for this - 'How Northern are You'?

    Since this is 'English Northern' not sure where my 60% puts me (apart from around Doncaster):

    http://toys.usvsth3m.com/north-o-meter/
  • If only they did for 'middle class' - that might reconcile Hodges & Jones....meanwhile we'll have to settle for this - 'How Northern are You'?

    Since this is 'English Northern' not sure where my 60% puts me (apart from around Doncaster):

    http://toys.usvsth3m.com/north-o-meter/

    87 % somewhere near York - figures as my ancestors started in Northallerton , then moved steadily south through Doncaster and finally Mansfield
  • @tim - I love your argument, it's a classic leftist position. You're against grammar schools not because they are not good schools, but because the middle classes are better at getting their kids into them. Better to destroy good schools than allow the middle classes an advantage, is the reasoning - and it's the reasoning which has taken us to near-bottom in the OECD league tables for literacy and numeracy.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Maybe we just need more grammar schools??!

    I'm surprised at you Southam, wouldn't you like your children to mix with children from all types of backgrounds?

    Wouldn;t you like them to understand at first hand how life can deal people a rough hand through no fault of their own?

    Wouldn't you like them to work out ways of dealing with those (sometimes militant!!) kids from the other side of the tracks?

  • If only they did for 'middle class' - that might reconcile Hodges & Jones....meanwhile we'll have to settle for this - 'How Northern are You'?

    Since this is 'English Northern' not sure where my 60% puts me (apart from around Doncaster):

    http://toys.usvsth3m.com/north-o-meter/

    I am 40% Northern - somewhere near Wolverhampton. I live in the Midlands, so that works; but I was born and brought up in North London. Maybe I've gone noihytive.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    Bobajob said:


    Do you really believe that?!

    Why else would tim give a flying one about Tories voting Tory?

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    I'm only 10% northern, which given I've spent 10% of my life in the north is a bit spooky. However I've spent most my life in Wales so perhaps the test doesn't really work for me. Apparently I belong somewhere around Bournemouth although the arrow was pointing in the Channel.
  • Election 2015 is going to be decided by the boundaries.
  • taffys said:

    Maybe we just need more grammar schools??!

    I'm surprised at you Southam, wouldn't you like your children to mix with children from all types of backgrounds?

    Wouldn;t you like them to understand at first hand how life can deal people a rough hand through no fault of their own?

    Wouldn't you like them to work out ways of dealing with those (sometimes militant!!) kids from the other side of the tracks?

    They all went to the local Comp, so they have all done that - as far as it's possible in Leamington Spa!

    But I was a working class kid who went to a grammar and it worked for me, so how can I oppose the principal?
  • tim said:

    If only they did for 'middle class' - that might reconcile Hodges & Jones....meanwhile we'll have to settle for this - 'How Northern are You'?

    Since this is 'English Northern' not sure where my 60% puts me (apart from around Doncaster):

    http://toys.usvsth3m.com/north-o-meter/

    Fill it in as if you're Cameron/Osborne, are they in France?
    Ed sure as heck isn't in Doncaster!

  • @tim - I love your argument, it's a classic leftist position. You're against grammar schools not because they are not good schools, but because the middle classes are better at getting their kids into them. Better to destroy good schools than allow the middle classes an advantage, is the reasoning - and it's the reasoning which has taken us to near-bottom in the OECD league tables for literacy and numeracy.

    Literacy and numeracy are much more about primary schools than secondaries. By the time a kid has got to 11, most of the damage - or not - has been done.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited November 2013
    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between. Given that I have spent 1/3 of my life outside the South, not a bad result.
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    I'm only 10% northern, which given I've spent 10% of my life in the north is a bit spooky. However I've spent most my life in Wales so perhaps the test doesn't really work for me. Apparently I belong somewhere around Bournemouth although the arrow was pointing in the Channel.

    If you can get it to 5% or 0% - it says you are in Jersey.
  • @Pulpstar

    North of Watford, is it? I'd better get a map.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928

    @tim - I love your argument, it's a classic leftist position. You're against grammar schools not because they are not good schools, but because the middle classes are better at getting their kids into them. Better to destroy good schools than allow the middle classes an advantage, is the reasoning - and it's the reasoning which has taken us to near-bottom in the OECD league tables for literacy and numeracy.

    Why are they 'good' schools? The most obvious reasons would be that they get extra resources and they take the highest achievers. Both of which are surely zero sum gains.
  • 10% northern... somewhere around Bournemouth... which is about 15-20 miles from where I actually grew up...

    It's accurate!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Bobajob said:


    Do you really believe that?!

    Why else would tim give a flying one about Tories voting Tory?

    a) he thinks we pay any attention to him]
    b) we think we give an Aylesbury duck what he thinks
    c) He thinks its a clever trolly way to wind up right wingers.
    d) He's keen to stay off Falkirk, the economy, unemployment, GDP, the deficit, etc etc etc.



  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    dr_spyn said:

    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between.

    Isn't Nottingham also the place most distant from the coast or near abouts?
  • @Pulpstar

    North of Watford, is it? I'd better get a map.

    Not 'Atlas'?

  • tim said:

    @tim - I love your argument, it's a classic leftist position. You're against grammar schools not because they are not good schools, but because the middle classes are better at getting their kids into them. Better to destroy good schools than allow the middle classes an advantage, is the reasoning - and it's the reasoning which has taken us to near-bottom in the OECD league tables for literacy and numeracy.

    We know how to improve standards across all classes, look at London over the last decade.

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Bunkum and twaddle - here in Bucks, in my daughter's year there was a child who received council-funded coaching as she lived in social housing.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship
  • Literacy and numeracy are much more about primary schools than secondaries. By the time a kid has got to 11, most of the damage - or not - has been done.

    True, but the issue is the left's obsession with everything related to education other than the one thing which actually matters - the quality of the education.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited November 2013

    @tim - I love your argument, it's a classic leftist position. You're against grammar schools not because they are not good schools, but because the middle classes are better at getting their kids into them. Better to destroy good schools than allow the middle classes an advantage, is the reasoning - and it's the reasoning which has taken us to near-bottom in the OECD league tables for literacy and numeracy.

    Why are they 'good' schools? The most obvious reasons would be that they get extra resources and they take the highest achievers. Both of which are surely zero sum gains.

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

  • The northern-o-meter missed the most revealing question though- when you see a plane in the sky do you a) ignore it b) point at it in wonder and awe c) put your fingers in your ears .

    a) southern or sophisticated parts of the Midlands
    b) Northern
    c) Heathrow
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited November 2013
    taffys said:

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship

    Nailed it - don't let tim and his ridiculous ignorant stereotyping get away with it. There's a reason many Grammar schools do better than public schools, can you get guess why that might be?
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

    Actually it doesn't show that. The figure you quoted is 'After accounting for student background characteristics, school autonomy and school competition for students (net difference)'

    Hopefully, as Gove's reforms take effect - most notably the massive increase in school autonomy from the Academy revolution, plus increased parental choice meaning schools have to compete for pupils - we should begin to see the gap narrowing.
  • Plato said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between.

    Isn't Nottingham also the place most distant from the coast or near abouts?
    Not quite -I think the Tamworth area is the record holder. It is a good 2 and quarter hour drive though to the coast
  • Literacy and numeracy are much more about primary schools than secondaries. By the time a kid has got to 11, most of the damage - or not - has been done.

    True, but the issue is the left's obsession with everything related to education other than the one thing which actually matters - the quality of the education.

    If the PISA survey is correct - and its findings are routinely quoted on here and elsewhere as gospel - it turns out that on a like for like basis this country's state schools actually do better than the private schools. So where's the quality there?

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Plato Pretty good guess, Nottingham is 64 miles from the sea, but Lichfield might be the furthest away from the surf if The Guardian is correct.

    http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2012/apr/25/british-town-furthest-from-sea
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,540
    Given how few grammar schools there are now, I'm not surprised that middle class parents make a bee-line for them. Middle-class parents in general are more likely to care about their childrens' education than working class parents do.
  • taffys said:

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship

    "Students from comprehensive schools are likely to achieve higher class degrees at university than independent and grammar school students with similar A-levels and GCSE results, a major study commissioned by the Sutton Trust and the Government shows. This is one of the main findings from a five year study by the National Foundation for Educational Research tracking 8000 A-level students to investigate whether the US based SAT could be used in university admissions in the UK."

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/comprehensive-pupils-outperform/

  • Most ignorant and stupid comment of the day award.

    "a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached"

  • Sean_F said:

    Given how few grammar schools there are now, I'm not surprised that middle class parents make a bee-line for them. Middle-class parents in general are more likely to care about their childrens' education than working class parents do.

    I thought that was black mothers, if Diane Abbott was to be believed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    I was Doncaster on the North-o-meter.

    I doubt it will trouble Ed's majority.....
  • Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

    Actually it doesn't show that. The figure you quoted is 'After accounting for student background characteristics, school autonomy and school competition for students (net difference)'

    Hopefully, as Gove's reforms take effect - most notably the massive increase in school autonomy from the Academy revolution, plus increased parental choice meaning schools have to compete for pupils - we should begin to see the gap narrowing.

    On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,540
    tim said:

    @Taffy's

    Sean_F said:

    Given how few grammar schools there are now, I'm not surprised that middle class parents make a bee-line for them. Middle-class parents in general are more likely to care about their childrens' education than working class parents do.

    If we are talking unresearched cliched generalisations I bet immigrant parents trump both of them.


    Some groups would. Indians and Chinese, I should think.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947

    The northern-o-meter missed the most revealing question though-

    How many can you count to on your fingers?

    a) 7 - industrial machinery worker from the north

    b) 10 - soft southern jessies never done a day's work

    c) 12 - East Anglian

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @State

    d) you don't hear it

    (London)
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    3:57AM
    surbiton said:

    « hide previous quotes
    CarlottaVance said:

    surbiton said:

    AndreaParma_82 said:
    Nottingham-Dales

    Lab 1644 UKIP 364 Con 220 Green 99 LD 78 TUSC 72

    ---------------------------


    These figures represent big swings to Labour from the major parties compared to 2011. So Labour is getting stronger on the ground as GE2015 approaches.
    --------------------
    CarlottaVance said:

    Piling up votes in safe seats? Someone else does that too.....
    -------------------
    surbiton said:

    Once you take off your blue tinted glasses, you will see Labour is piling up votes everywhere.

    --------------------------
    CarlottaVance said:

    Spelthorne?
    -------------------------

    Carlotta, I hope you do realise Spelthorne is not a safe Labour seat. There, like in SW London, we lend our votes. However, if the LD's are not upto it, I suppose we will have to do it ourselves.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Northern ? I got London - disappointed I didn't get Jersey or the Isle of Wight..
  • @Pulpstar

    North of Watford, is it? I'd better get a map.

    Not 'Atlas'?

    No. I always wear an 'at, Carlotta.
  • taffys said:

    What a surprise.

    You and Frank are setting up a straw man here. It's UKIP policy to bring back a grammar school in every town, not tory policy.

    I'm a thatcherite tory but I don't really like the idea of grammar schools myself. It isn';t the kids who go to the grammars, but those left with the stigma of the secondary modern that I don;t like.

    Nothing wrong with comps where kids of all backgrounds can mix, so long as there is discipline, streaming and setting to let academic kids get on with that and those with other talents develop those. No stigma, same uniform.

    In fact I feel privileged to have attended a comp because it gives you an insight into society that you would never get by going grammar or private. An insight many labour politicians clearly lack.

    I am afraid that whilst in theory the Comprehensive system might seem appealing. In practice it has been a very poor system that has dragged down many otherwise bright children who might have flourished in a Grammar School. As far as the comprehensive system goes We are all secondary moderns now.
    The problem is not so much comprehensives per se as the catchment area system. If kids are selected for their secondary school on the basis of where they live, not only does that produce another social selection by proxy but the lack of competition it implies allows moderately well performing schools to coast. Parents must have genuine choice if schools are to consistently improve. Choice, however, is inconvenient to LEAs and schools who have to process the applications and who therefore try to minimise it.

    Another thing that is positively damaging is the obsession with A*-C passes at GCSE, which really means an obsession with those in the B-E band, and failing those at the top and bottom of the spectrum, and a focus on KS4 over KSs3 and 5 in secondaries (which may be counterproductive as resource in Y7-9 can be more effective but doesn't stop it happening). It has to be said that governments led by both main parties, as well as Ofsted and others, have to take their share of the blame for this state of affairs.
  • tim said:

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

    Actually it doesn't show that. The figure you quoted is 'After accounting for student background characteristics, school autonomy and school competition for students (net difference)'

    Hopefully, as Gove's reforms take effect - most notably the massive increase in school autonomy from the Academy revolution, plus increased parental choice meaning schools have to compete for pupils - we should begin to see the gap narrowing.

    On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

    The wealthy would be better off sending their kids to a state school and then paying for coaching in areas where the kid is failing rather than spraying huge amounts of cash at a schools with a big astroturf bill.

    Given the debate about teaching qualifications a couple of weeks ago, it strikes me that this PISA finding is very important. Put simply, on a like for like basis state schools - which predominantly employ qualified teachers - perform better than private schools. All this stuff about the private school sector having so much to teach the state school sector about teachers may actually be complete rubbish. It turns out that if you put small classes of highly motivated, academically-selected kids from wealthy family backgrounds in front of graduates with top class degrees, and you also throw in world class facilities, the kids will tend to do well; just not as well as kids from similar backgrounds who go to state schools.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    The northern-o-meter missed the most revealing question though-

    How many can you count to on your fingers?

    a) 7 - industrial machinery worker from the north

    b) 10 - soft southern jessies never done a day's work

    c) 12 - East Anglian

    East Anglian is surely about how many have webbed feet.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    tim said:

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

    Actually it doesn't show that. The figure you quoted is 'After accounting for student background characteristics, school autonomy and school competition for students (net difference)'

    Hopefully, as Gove's reforms take effect - most notably the massive increase in school autonomy from the Academy revolution, plus increased parental choice meaning schools have to compete for pupils - we should begin to see the gap narrowing.

    On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

    The wealthy would be better off sending their kids to a state school and then paying for coaching in areas where the kid is failing rather than spraying huge amounts of cash at a schools with a big astroturf bill.
    I went to a private school and have to say the teaching was pretty good. Of course I don't have a state secondary to compare it with. I'm most grateful for the fact that whilst results mattered it wasn't a boring exam factory. Whether it provided value for money is another matter. Used to be a bit of a running joke at lunchtime that people would ask each other 'Do you think you got your £100 worth this morning?'
  • taffys said:

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship

    "Students from comprehensive schools are likely to achieve higher class degrees at university than independent and grammar school students with similar A-levels and GCSE results, a major study commissioned by the Sutton Trust and the Government shows. This is one of the main findings from a five year study by the National Foundation for Educational Research tracking 8000 A-level students to investigate whether the US based SAT could be used in university admissions in the UK."

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/comprehensive-pupils-outperform/

    Which is another way of saying that kids with similar levels of ability are likely to get higher grades at private or grammar schools than at comprehensives.
  • tim said:

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

    Actually it doesn't show that. The figure you quoted is 'After accounting for student background characteristics, school autonomy and school competition for students (net difference)'

    Hopefully, as Gove's reforms take effect - most notably the massive increase in school autonomy from the Academy revolution, plus increased parental choice meaning schools have to compete for pupils - we should begin to see the gap narrowing.

    On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

    The wealthy would be better off sending their kids to a state school and then paying for coaching in areas where the kid is failing rather than spraying huge amounts of cash at a schools with a big astroturf bill.
    Erm...you clearly don't understand the mindset at all. I educate my two girls privately because:
    1. They'll learn something. Their education is just that.
    2. They get great 'soft' opportunities (music, sport, drama, field trips, etc)
    3. They get discipline, manners, are forced to work hard - it rounds them to life's harsh realities a bit. It's not a picnic.
    4. A controversial one maybe - they have nice friends. I'm sure society would be better if we 'all mucked in together' and all that but I just don't want them mixing with the sofa chav / Jeremy Kyle tendency. I want them to learn how to get on in life not how to do smack. Schoolfriends can be friends for life too - so it's good to get some decent ones
    5. They are rigidly setted and streamed and learn (fast) at their own pace without either 'not getting it' or 'waiting for Terry Fu<kwit to catch up'.
    6. etc, etc

    No doubt the lefties will despair, but I'm paying for my kids and yours too - so STFU.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Speccie Farage love in appears over...

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/11/is-nigel-farage-losing-his-touch/

    "Just a few months ago, Farage announced he was taking a step back from the television microphones to ‘get a grip’ on Ukip. Instead, he’s just undertaken a mini-tour of UK theatres for ‘An Evening with Nigel Farage’ — some of which I understand drew the sort of audiences Ukip had five years ago (i.e. rather small ones).

    Every party leader can have bad days. But not every party is so dependent on the star quality of its leader. Farage is placing a very large bet on the potency of his cheeky chap persona. If this wears thin, what’s left of Ukip?"
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    Bobajob said:

    Anna Soubry is a very left wing Tory - she must be among the most left wing in the party. A formidable opponent for Nick in an urban seat.

    Nick's probably the more right-wing candidate of the two.
    LOL

  • Scrapheap_as_was
    November 4
    £5.87 - that'll do for me Vince and for that reason, I'm out.
    Thanks v much.



    Smug alert as Royal Mail heads towards £5.50....
  • taffys said:

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship

    "Students from comprehensive schools are likely to achieve higher class degrees at university than independent and grammar school students with similar A-levels and GCSE results, a major study commissioned by the Sutton Trust and the Government shows. This is one of the main findings from a five year study by the National Foundation for Educational Research tracking 8000 A-level students to investigate whether the US based SAT could be used in university admissions in the UK."

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/comprehensive-pupils-outperform/

    Which is another way of saying that kids with similar levels of ability are likely to get higher grades at private or grammar schools than at comprehensives.

    Yes, it is. And that's why kids that go to Comps should not have to achieve as high grades to get into university.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    @Bobajob, have you ever voted conservative ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JoeMurphyLondon: Exclusive.. Ed Miliband's PPS Karen Buck admits Labour is losing argument over benefits @eveningstandard http://t.co/eUUZOu9JHa
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Plato said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between.

    Isn't Nottingham also the place most distant from the coast or near abouts?
    Not quite -I think the Tamworth area is the record holder. It is a good 2 and quarter hour drive though to the coast
    The roads are bad !
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483

    Plato said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between.

    Isn't Nottingham also the place most distant from the coast or near abouts?
    Not quite -I think the Tamworth area is the record holder. It is a good 2 and quarter hour drive though to the coast
    This question comes up every so often, and the question needs careful definition. For instance: you get a different answer if you say 'sea' or 'coast'. (There is a different answer if you include tidal waters, and another if you do not count rivers and estuaries.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_points_of_the_United_Kingdom
    http://mapzone.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/mapzone/didyouknow/whereis/q_16_63.html

    But according to the OS, the place furthest from the sea is Coton-on-the-Elms, in my beloved Derbyshire (even if it is the very south of the county). A quick measurement shows it is 9 miles from Lichfield cathedral, 4.3 miles from Swadlincote, and 5.5 miles from Burton-on-Trent.

    Therefore I'd take a stab at Swadlincote being the town furthest from the sea ...
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    tim said:

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.

    Actually it doesn't show that. The figure you quoted is 'After accounting for student background characteristics, school autonomy and school competition for students (net difference)'

    Hopefully, as Gove's reforms take effect - most notably the massive increase in school autonomy from the Academy revolution, plus increased parental choice meaning schools have to compete for pupils - we should begin to see the gap narrowing.

    On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

    The wealthy would be better off sending their kids to a state school and then paying for coaching in areas where the kid is failing rather than spraying huge amounts of cash at a schools with a big astroturf bill.
    So the fop class is genetically superhuman, if it overcomes that crap schooling at Eton and Winchester to outperform the better-educated chavs in Oxbridge entrance, and then everything else that matters?

    I don't think this (utterly bogus-looking) statistoid sends quite the message you want it to.

  • taffys said:

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship

    "Students from comprehensive schools are likely to achieve higher class degrees at university than independent and grammar school students with similar A-levels and GCSE results, a major study commissioned by the Sutton Trust and the Government shows. This is one of the main findings from a five year study by the National Foundation for Educational Research tracking 8000 A-level students to investigate whether the US based SAT could be used in university admissions in the UK."

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/comprehensive-pupils-outperform/

    Which is another way of saying that kids with similar levels of ability are likely to get higher grades at private or grammar schools than at comprehensives.

    Yes, it is. And that's why kids that go to Comps should not have to achieve as high grades to get into university.

    Or cure the illness rather than the symptoms by making comps better suited to actually educate bright and diligent kids
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    Labour's tussle with Unite is quite interesting. I suspect that a good many of their voters actually want Labour to be the somewhat Machiavellian controlling party that Unite seem to feel is the right way to operate. Ideas stretching back to the 1900s with their pinnacle 40 years ago.

    I'm sure that the modern Labour party isn't about that sort of thing at all really. I wonder how long it will take to disentangle themselves from the well-meaning, but now ill-fitting, causes of the past.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    SO, good point, but parents who send their kids to Private school are paying for predictability.

    The quality of teaching in the state sector is very uneven. Some teachers are amazing, others seriously poor. If you get a dud you can be f8cked, no matter how many extra lessons you pay for.

    Also Public schools do seem to breed a certain inner confidence into people, perhaps because of their long histories, traditions and famous old pupils.

    If the government of whatever colour left the state sector alone for 10 minutes schools might have a chance to mature and grow organically.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Tyke

    Nope. Have you? ;-)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Plato said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between.

    Isn't Nottingham also the place most distant from the coast or near abouts?
    Not quite -I think the Tamworth area is the record holder. It is a good 2 and quarter hour drive though to the coast
    This question comes up every so often, and the question needs careful definition. For instance: you get a different answer if you say 'sea' or 'coast'. (There is a different answer if you include tidal waters, and another if you do not count rivers and estuaries.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_points_of_the_United_Kingdom
    http://mapzone.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/mapzone/didyouknow/whereis/q_16_63.html

    But according to the OS, the place furthest from the sea is Coton-on-the-Elms, in my beloved Derbyshire (even if it is the very south of the county). A quick measurement shows it is 9 miles from Lichfield cathedral, 4.3 miles from Swadlincote, and 5.5 miles from Burton-on-Trent.

    Therefore I'd take a stab at Swadlincote being the town furthest from the sea ...
    My house is probably the furthest from the sea amongst PBers.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Exclusive.. Ed Miliband's PPS Karen Buck admits Labour is losing argument over benefits @eveningstandard http://t.co/eUUZOu9JHa

    "Polling expert Mr Morris told a trade union meeting that voters on average backed David Cameron’s reforms by about two to one — but that among Labour-Conservative swing voters the divide was a huge 64 per cent to nine per cent."

    Silly Cameron - he will never learn - always wrong.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Exactly. We endured our class clowns in State primary school and I went to a pretty good one back in the 70s. And we had one in my public school who lasted one year before her parents gave in.

    They were scrap metal magnets and clearly wanted their daughter to have the best on offer - but she was disruptive, childish and a drag on the rest of us who wanted to learn. I recall one biology lesson where the Old Girl teacher told her that she'd make nothing of herself until she took herself seriously. A week or two later she was gone.

    The peer group mentality in my school was very strong. You're female, smart and have your destiny in your own hands - its up to you to do the most with it.
    Patrick said:

    tim said:

    Just like our private schools which, as PISA shows, actually let their fee paying clients down quite spectacularly.



    The wealthy would be better off sending their kids to a state school and then paying for coaching in areas where the kid is failing rather than spraying huge amounts of cash at a schools with a big astroturf bill.
    Erm...you clearly don't understand the mindset at all. I educate my two girls privately because:
    1. They'll learn something. Their education is just that.
    2. They get great 'soft' opportunities (music, sport, drama, field trips, etc)
    3. They get discipline, manners, are forced to work hard - it rounds them to life's harsh realities a bit. It's not a picnic.
    4. A controversial one maybe - they have nice friends. I'm sure society would be better if we 'all mucked in together' and all that but I just don't want them mixing with the sofa chav / Jeremy Kyle tendency. I want them to learn how to get on in life not how to do smack. Schoolfriends can be friends for life too - so it's good to get some decent ones
    5. They are rigidly setted and streamed and learn (fast) at their own pace without either 'not getting it' or 'waiting for Terry Fu
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Josias

    Derbyshire, while undeniably one of the most beautiful and interesting of all the counties, is also one of the weirdest, geographically. Its county town is Matlock, not Derby, and in any event Derby itself is small and an irrelevance - the east of the county (Ilkeston etc) is nearer Nottingham and looks towards that city, the north of the county nearer Manchester and Sheffield and looks towards them. The county itself is very long - bordering Yorkshire to the north and the rolling hills of the relatively dull Leicestershire to the south.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Southam - that evidence about state school kids doing comparatively better at university is not new of course. I remember my Maths teacher at my private school putting a newspaper cutting on the wall that said just that. The message being that we shouldn't be complacent. I'm not a leftie who fawns over private education but I think the assumption that private schools breed arrogance is a bit unfair at times.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Plato

    Scrap metal magnets :)

    Brilliant homophone call!
  • taffys said:

    I can see why you want the state to pay for schools that have developed a highly efficient way of filtering out poor bright children in favour of the wealthier less bright ones who have been coached,but just don't pretend they are any more than that.

    Surely, if grammars did that, they wouldn't have the outstanding results they undoubtedly do have.

    At university I remember it was the ex-grammar students who got most of the real prizes. Us comp kids were left behind with the etonians and harrovians, giving us a strange kind of kinship

    "Students from comprehensive schools are likely to achieve higher class degrees at university than independent and grammar school students with similar A-levels and GCSE results, a major study commissioned by the Sutton Trust and the Government shows. This is one of the main findings from a five year study by the National Foundation for Educational Research tracking 8000 A-level students to investigate whether the US based SAT could be used in university admissions in the UK."

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/comprehensive-pupils-outperform/

    Which is another way of saying that kids with similar levels of ability are likely to get higher grades at private or grammar schools than at comprehensives.

    Yes, it is. And that's why kids that go to Comps should not have to achieve as high grades to get into university.

    Or cure the illness rather than the symptoms by making comps better suited to actually educate bright and diligent kids

    You can do both.

  • Southam - that evidence about state school kids doing comparatively better at university is not new of course. I remember my Maths teacher at my private school putting a newspaper cutting on the wall that said just that. The message being that we shouldn't be complacent. I'm not a leftie who fawns over private education but I think the assumption that private schools breed arrogance is a bit unfair at times.

    What private schools breed, which is absolutely priceless, is confidence. And that is a wonderful thing. The products of private schools may then cross over into arrogance - but you can't blame the schools for that. I'd be very surprised if they were not constantly on guard against it.

  • Parents send their kids to private schools for the same reason that people pay for business- and first-class air tickets. Yes, the service is better but the real value is in who you don't have to sit next to.

    I say that as someone who went to a comprehensive and coasted through my GCSEs because I could and because they let me. I only really found my feet in sixth form, into which at the time only about the top third academically went.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,043
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Exclusive.. Ed Miliband's PPS Karen Buck admits Labour is losing argument over benefits @eveningstandard http://t.co/eUUZOu9JHa

    "Polling expert Mr Morris told a trade union meeting that voters on average backed David Cameron’s reforms by about two to one — but that among Labour-Conservative swing voters the divide was a huge 64 per cent to nine per cent."

    Silly Cameron - he will never learn - always wrong.
    Silly PB Tory, don't you know opinion polls are merely glorified anecdotes ;-)

  • On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

    Where does that quote come from?

    Ah yes:

    http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/about-us/

    A website set up by Fiona Miller and other politically-motivated campaigners. You'll need to do better than that.

    Odd, isn't it, that if UK state schools are so wonderful, that middle-class parents either move heaven and earth to get their kids into grammar schools or certain academies,or pay humoungous fees for private education. And even odder that we're near bottom of the OECD tables.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Bobajob said:

    @Josias

    Derbyshire, while undeniably one of the most beautiful and interesting of all the counties, is also one of the weirdest, geographically. Its county town is Matlock, not Derby, and in any event Derby itself is small and an irrelevance - the east of the county (Ilkeston etc) is nearer Nottingham and looks towards that city, the north of the county nearer Manchester and Sheffield and looks towards them. The county itself is very long - bordering Yorkshire to the north and the rolling hills of the relatively dull Leicestershire to the south.

    Utterly agree. I love the county, but know the bleak northern moors much better than the very south of the county, where there might as well be a sign: "There be dragons!". And I was born south of Derby.

    Still, it'll always be better than Nottinghamshire. Even if I prefer Nottingham to Derby. ;-)
  • Southam - that evidence about state school kids doing comparatively better at university is not new of course. I remember my Maths teacher at my private school putting a newspaper cutting on the wall that said just that. The message being that we shouldn't be complacent. I'm not a leftie who fawns over private education but I think the assumption that private schools breed arrogance is a bit unfair at times.

    What private schools breed, which is absolutely priceless, is confidence. And that is a wonderful thing. The products of private schools may then cross over into arrogance - but you can't blame the schools for that. I'd be very surprised if they were not constantly on guard against it.

    This... Academics are only part of the equation, and it's often the ethos of the school, which is instilled in pupils which makes it so attractive. Not just confidence, but many other qualities.

    What state schools should be doing is something similar, but that's too 'Goveish' for many in the education establishment.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    tim said:

    Speaking of private schools leading to arrogance I see the polling is showing Camerons women problem never went away.

    What is it about the arrogant misogynist fat red fake from Eton which seems to turn of women voters?
    I think it may have something to do with Sure Start.

    Can we have some context please? Is there polling to show whether it's Cameron personally, or the tories generally, or the right generally that turns women off? Are any potential Cameron replacements fancied better than Cameron by women?

  • TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Exclusive.. Ed Miliband's PPS Karen Buck admits Labour is losing argument over benefits @eveningstandard http://t.co/eUUZOu9JHa

    "Polling expert Mr Morris told a trade union meeting that voters on average backed David Cameron’s reforms by about two to one — but that among Labour-Conservative swing voters the divide was a huge 64 per cent to nine per cent."

    Silly Cameron - he will never learn - always wrong.
    And Ed is always right:

    "Mr Miliband last month demoted Liam Byrne, who as welfare spokes- man argued that Labour should be focusing on reform rather than just opposing cuts.

    One party source said the polling evidence on welfare had “vindicated” Mr Byrne’s position."

  • On a like for like basis private schools fail their pupils:

    "OECD discovered in December 2010 that once socio-economic background was accounted for UK public schools outscored privately-managed ones by 20 score points"

    Where does that quote come from?

    Ah yes:

    http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/about-us/

    A website set up by Fiona Miller and other politically-motivated campaigners. You'll need to do better than that.

    Odd, isn't it, that if UK state schools are so wonderful, that middle-class parents either move heaven and earth to get their kids into grammar schools or certain academies,or pay humoungous fees for private education. And even odder that we're near bottom of the OECD tables.
    No, I got it from page 13 (paragraph 53) of the PISA report on the UK:

    On average across OECD countries, privately managed schools display a performance advantage of 30 score points on the PISA reading scale (in the United Kingdom even of 62 score points). However, once the socio-economic background of students and schools is accounted for, public schools come out with a slight advantage of 7 score points, on average across OECD countries (in the United Kingdom public schools outscore privately managed schools by 20 score points once the socio-economic background is accounted for).

    http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproducts/pisa2009/46624007.pdf


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,483
    Pulpstar said:

    Plato said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Had fun with the Northern O meter - fall between 0 % & 53% - Nottingham was the closest I got to being from The North - could have easily ended up in Jersey or somewhere in between.

    Isn't Nottingham also the place most distant from the coast or near abouts?
    Not quite -I think the Tamworth area is the record holder. It is a good 2 and quarter hour drive though to the coast
    This question comes up every so often, and the question needs careful definition. For instance: you get a different answer if you say 'sea' or 'coast'. (There is a different answer if you include tidal waters, and another if you do not count rivers and estuaries.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_points_of_the_United_Kingdom
    http://mapzone.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/mapzone/didyouknow/whereis/q_16_63.html

    But according to the OS, the place furthest from the sea is Coton-on-the-Elms, in my beloved Derbyshire (even if it is the very south of the county). A quick measurement shows it is 9 miles from Lichfield cathedral, 4.3 miles from Swadlincote, and 5.5 miles from Burton-on-Trent.

    Therefore I'd take a stab at Swadlincote being the town furthest from the sea ...
    My house is probably the furthest from the sea amongst PBers.
    The lowest point in the UK, Holme Fen, lies just south of Peterborough and is about thirty miles from the sea. In 1850 a post was driven into the ground so its top was level with the surface; it is now 12 foot up in the air!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holme,_Cambridgeshire#Holme_Fen

    (I've always wanted to do a walk from the lowest point, Holme Fen, to the highest point, Ben Nevis. I've never quite got around to it yet.)
This discussion has been closed.