You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
I love that comment, it's an absolute classic. In 1964, at the age of ten, being a precocious child, I sent off for the manifestos of the Labour, Conservative, and Liberal Parties, and when they arrived in the post I carefully read them. I decided that the Conservative manifesto made the best sense. Of course, at that age I was cruelly denied a vote, but at every election after I'd reached voting age I voted Conservative, basically for the same reasons as informed my preference in 1964. Hell, I even voted Conservative in the recent Euros, which seems to be more than most Conservative Party members did.
I think with half a century's experience I know pretty well where the centre of the Conservative tradition is. Rory Stewart is absolutely bang in the middle of it. What the Conservative tradition certainly isn't is an extreme ideology obsessed with Brexit to the exclusion of all other considerations. That is Kipperism, not Conservatism.
Regarding the claim by OGH that Stewart "won" the debate [by getting 35%] it is worth looking at the breakdown and realising that the 35% he won were not the part of the public the Tories are targeting.
He won only 18% of Conservatives and only 16% of Leavers. That is pathetic for a leader of a Conservative Party seeking to Leave the EU.
He won 64% of Lib Dems, 49% of Labour voters and 57% of Remainers. However unless he implements a policy of Remaining are they going to vote for a Tory party he leads still leaving? Or would they vote for the Lib Dems or Labour?
Appealing to the "centre" is reasonable where the centre exists. It doesn't here. The nation is polarised and a Stewart-led Conservative Party would be rather dissociative. It would irritate both sides and appeal to none.
Interesting that winning 18% for the least experienced candidate in a five way contest (so for the ERG reader, average 20% each) is pathetic.
Is there a course where we can learn to speak ERG?
Hardline remainer = Someone who rules out remain and 2nd ref Very clever = Boris Johnson & Dominic Raab Reclaiming parliamentary sovereignty = Proroguing parliament
It would be very useful if those of us not in the ERG could get a copy of the latest re-definitions of the English language.
I'm not ERG but I do understand mathematics.
While 20% in a five-way contest is average, a potential leader should be better than average don't you think? Therefore it should be above 20%.
I'm not ERG but yes for anyone wanting to be leader they should be above 20%.
I haven't advocated proroguing Parliament and I would oppose it. My objection to the backstop is it is undemocratic and I object to proroguing Parliament for the same reason. I would back holding an early election if Parliament won't implement the decision and let the people decide that way.
All the candidates can not be better than average, especially when there is an odds on fav going into the debates. They can still stand and are not pathetic for not all being above average. Given he has been in the cabinet for only a couple of months and few people would have heard of him before 2019 he has done remarkably well.
All the candidates can not be worse than average.
The leader should be one that is better than average.
He's done well for a nobody. For a leadership contender its pretty pathetic - and the same goes for Hancock and the rest of the dwarves who've been knocked out so far.
Because it would, er, be a big issue with the voters when they noticed? That must be it....
Seriously though, one party planning a tax raid on gardens, another trying to make it much more difficult to get your internet porn - none of them really want the job of governing, do they?
Regarding the claim by OGH that Stewart "won" the debate [by getting 35%] it is worth looking at the breakdown and realising that the 35% he won were not the part of the public the Tories are targeting.
He won only 18% of Conservatives and only 16% of Leavers. That is pathetic for a leader of a Conservative Party seeking to Leave the EU.
He won 64% of Lib Dems, 49% of Labour voters and 57% of Remainers. However unless he implements a policy of Remaining are they going to vote for a Tory party he leads still leaving? Or would they vote for the Lib Dems or Labour?
Appealing to the "centre" is reasonable where the centre exists. It doesn't here. The nation is polarised and a Stewart-led Conservative Party would be rather dissociative. It would irritate both sides and appeal to none.
Interesting that winning 18% for the least experienced candidate in a five way contest (so for the ERG reader, average 20% each) is pathetic.
Is there a course where we can learn to speak ERG?
Hardline remainer = Someone who rules out remain and 2nd ref Very clever = Boris Johnson & Dominic Raab Reclaiming parliamentary sovereignty = Proroguing parliament
It would be very useful if those of us not in the ERG could get a copy of the latest re-definitions of the English language.
I'm not ERG but I do understand mathematics.
While 20% in a five-way contest is average, a potential leader should be better than average don't you think? Therefore it should be above 20%.
I'm not ERG but yes for anyone wanting to be leader they should be above 20%.
I haven't advocated proroguing Parliament and I would oppose it. My objection to the backstop is it is undemocratic and I object to proroguing Parliament for the same reason. I would back holding an early election if Parliament won't implement the decision and let the people decide that way.
Re your last paragraph: What happens if Remain supporting parties win any your mooted early GE? Would that make it acceptable for them to revoke without a 2nd referendum in your opinion?
What can I say, we love freedom. *shifts nervously*
I do wonder why people on here get so heated about this.
Reminds me of SeanT's predictions of Sadiq Khan's imminent downfall because Khan had the temerity to challenge Uber when the whole of London (well SeanT at least) absolutely depends on Uber for, well, everything.
Regarding the claim by OGH that Stewart "won" the debate [by getting 35%] it is worth looking at the breakdown and realising that the 35% he won were not the part of the public the Tories are targeting.
He won only 18% of Conservatives and only 16% of Leavers. That is pathetic for a leader of a Conservative Party seeking to Leave the EU.
He won 64% of Lib Dems, 49% of Labour voters and 57% of Remainers. However unless he implements a policy of Remaining are they going to vote for a Tory party he leads still leaving? Or would they vote for the Lib Dems or Labour?
Appealing to the "centre" is reasonable where the centre exists. It doesn't here. The nation is polarised and a Stewart-led Conservative Party would be rather dissociative. It would irritate both sides and appeal to none.
Interesting that winning 18% for the least experienced candidate in a five way contest (so for the ERG reader, average 20% each) is pathetic.
Is there a course where we can learn to speak ERG?
Hardline remainer = Someone who rules out remain and 2nd ref Very clever = Boris Johnson & Dominic Raab Reclaiming parliamentary sovereignty = Proroguing parliament
It would be very useful if those of us not in the ERG could get a copy of the latest re-definitions of the English language.
I'm not ERG but I do understand mathematics.
While 20% in a five-way contest is average, a potential leader should be better than average don't you think? Therefore it should be above 20%.
I'm not ERG but yes for anyone wanting to be leader they should be above 20%.
I haven't advocated proroguing Parliament and I would oppose it. My objection to the backstop is it is undemocratic and I object to proroguing Parliament for the same reason. I would back holding an early election if Parliament won't implement the decision and let the people decide that way.
Re your last paragraph: What happens if Remain supporting parties win any your mooted early GE? Would that make it acceptable for them to revoke without a 2nd referendum in your opinion?
If that was in their manifesto, yes.
Fair enough.
Presumably then, if a 2nd ref was in the GE winners' manifestos (a more likely possibility) you'd support a 2nd ref.
How do they diffuse it by cancelling it without alienating the majority who voted for it or the vast, vast majority of their own supporters who still back it?
Have a referendum and lose it convincingly. There will be some brexit enthusiasts who will variously never forgive them for having the referendum, losing it or cancelling brexit after they lost it, and they'll go back to Farage, but that won't be the response of everyone who voted Leave.
You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
I love that comment, it's an absolute classic. In 1964, at the age of ten, being a precocious child, I sent off for the manifestos of the Labour, Conservative, and Liberal Parties, and when they arrived in the post I carefully read them. I decided that the Conservative manifesto made the best sense. Of course, at that age I was cruelly denied a vote, but at every election after I'd reached voting age I voted Conservative, basically for the same reasons as informed my preference in 1964. Hell, I even voted Conservative in the recent Euros, which seems to be more than most Conservative Party members did.
I think with half a century's experience I know pretty well where the centre of the Conservative tradition is. Rory Stewart is absolutely bang in the middle of it. What the Conservative tradition certainly isn't is an extreme ideology obsessed with Brexit to the exclusion of all other considerations. That is Kipperism, not Conservatism.
Even though I am not a member of the Tories, I think I might get some satisfaction from the fact that I am technically a more loyal voter than most of its members given I was one of the few who voted Tory in the EU parliamentary elections. Granted that was the result of a coin toss between them and the Tigchangers, but still.
Of course, the worse Tories are as bad as Corbynites in not wanting floating voters. They aren't real Tories after all.
What can I say, we love freedom. *shifts nervously*
I do wonder why people on here get so heated about this.
Well it did sound like something that was never going to work, and unlike most political issues very easy to comprehend. Also, I'm actually 15 and proving my age for porn could be problematic.
I still think the Brexit denouement will have to be a three-way 2nd Ref: No Deal vs Deal vs Remain. The WA could be passed conditional to the results of this 2nd Ref.
There is no candidate left who is prepared to work with the deal on the table. This makes both no deal Brexit and revoke more likely.
Who is going to lead any kind of drive to compromise now?
Oh I do hope we end up revoking. Just to teach the stupid malicious Brexiteers a lesson.
In that way can I hope we end up no dealing? Just to teach the stupid malicious Remainers a lesson.
The vast, vast majority of Leavers in Parliament backed the WA MV3. It failed because it was opposed by the vast, vast majority of Remainers. It is the Remainers who have thwarted the WA and it would be karmic justice if that leads to a harder Brexit.
You missed the bit about the Remainers being hypocrites/out-and-out bare-faced liars, having told those who voted for them in 2017 that they would, of course, implement Brexit.
Quite a nasty story. If I were PM I don't think I'd want to have a humiliated senior colleague on the backbenches. It's not as though the Government was brimming with such obvious talent that they can afford to discard what they've got.
Because it would, er, be a big issue with the voters when they noticed? That must be it....
Seriously though, one party planning a tax raid on gardens, another trying to make it much more difficult to get your internet porn - none of them really want the job of governing, do they?
Pah! A tax raid on your gardens... I thought it used to be full-scale Venezuela-isation - have you gone soft on Labour?
Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one
Or of l
Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.
He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
He's anti
You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
So you are against Catholic Emancipatiubsidies to powerful interest groups?
Well a majority of TWhigs
One of the paradoxes of that time is .
It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
Whig economists were undoubtedly correct,
I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
Being anti welfare and outdoor relief was a way of allowing market forces. The deaths were merely market mechanisms at work in the 19th Century Libertarian view.
Malthusian?
It is much like the right wing perspectivetoo high for them.
I'd have thought it's the hardline Greens who would be most keen on population reduction, and oppose economic growth in poorer countries.
There is a world of difference bet.
You achieve falling birth rates and female emancipation by moving from subsistence to intensive farming and industrialisation.
Greens have always stood for economic justice as part o
You're being very emotive.
There is simply no substitute for making poor countries richer in order to achieve desirable social goals. That is achieved by capitalism, not by making rich countries poorer. It's great that thanks to their own industrial revolutions, Chinese, Taiwanese, South Koreans are no longer living in dire poverty. In due course, the same will be true of Indians and Sri Lankans. Their environments are doubtless less pristine than they were 60 years ago, but on every measure, their lives are a hell of a lot better.
Quite a nasty story. If I were PM I don't think I'd want to have a humiliated senior colleague on the backbenches. It's not as though the Government was brimming with such obvious talent that they can afford to discard what they've got.
They need to make room for Boris lickspittles, I mean supporters. Not all will actually believe in him, and of those that don't not all will be swayed by being junior minister at DfID, they need that 'The Rt Honourable' to their name.
I am disappointed Rory is out of the race. For me he was the only candidate being realistic about the challenges of Brexit.
And not just that. But about other challenges facing the country too.
Still, the Tory electorate - whether MPs or members - simply don't want to hear. So they will continue in La-La-Land, dragging us along as hostages, until reality finally hits them in the face.
Yes - the Brexit Tories should know their place and bow to the great and superior EU masters...
Calling the EU our “masters” is invariably a sign of someone who has little understanding of how the EU works.
Still, when No Deal happens, you will learn how much control you will have actually taken back.
I did a YouGov recently and this was part of the questioning. Apparently this age verification and ID system goes beyond adult websites. They were even talking about it being used to shop online for non pornographic material/ non adult material!
I hope they put this into the long grass as I cannot understand the need for such a statist draconian approach. If people are worried about children accessing pornography then the parents should filter their broadband or Wi-fi or whatever they use via parental settings.
When I was a lad people used to leave pornographic magazines in fields or in bushes in parks; the internet has diminished this activity. What I am saying is there has since the 1960s always been this problem. An ill-judged heavy handed Government decision to complicate life beyond pornography is unacceptable and the people who use pornography legally should not be targeted in this way either.
I think it's a mad and impractical idea, but polling shows compulsory Age ID for online porn is a very popular policy.
Do you support the state intervention that forces companies not to discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, age?
Yes. I'm not an anarchist, I do believe in minimialist interventionism and that is part of the minimalist that I believe in.
There is no candidate left who is prepared to work with the deal on the table. This makes both no deal Brexit and revoke more likely.
Who is going to lead any kind of drive to compromise now?
Oh I do hope we end up revoking. Just to teach the stupid malicious Brexiteers a lesson.
In that way can I hope we end up no dealing? Just to teach the stupid malicious Remainers a lesson.
The vast, vast majority of Leavers in Parliament backed the WA MV3. It failed because it was opposed by the vast, vast majority of Remainers. It is the Remainers who have thwarted the WA and it would be karmic justice if that leads to a harder Brexit.
You’re someone who is willing to see people in Northern Ireland and elsewhere killed or maimed in order to get your precious Brexit. So it’s not surprising you are willing to impose economic harm as well.
It was the ERG which trashed the WA and gave cover to Labour and others not to vote for it. Anyway, it is now dead. There will be no transition, despite Boris’s lies about this last night. A crash out of the EU will have damaging effects on industry and agriculture and NI and much else besides. It won’t be good for the Tories. Nor will it do much for democracy either, which will likely come under strain when people realise they have been sold a pup.
But, hey, this is all an acceptable price to pay for those who’ve decided that the EU is some sort of evil being.
Do you support the state intervention that forces companies not to discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, age?
Yes. I'm not an anarchist, I do believe in minimialist interventionism and that is part of the minimalist that I believe in.
That's a rather large definition of "minimalist"
Treating people equally is a large definition? Its pretty minor to me. Not minor as in unimportant, but minor as in I've never once felt inconvenienced by not being able to discriminate against people - which is fine because I don't want to.
There is a wide variety of ways you can act without discriminating people on those grounds.
Regarding the claim by OGH that Stewart "won" the debate [by getting 35%] it is worth looking at the breakdown and realising that the 35% he won were not the part of the public the Tories are targeting.
He won only 18% of Conservatives and only 16% of Leavers. That is pathetic for a leader of a Conservative Party seeking to Leave the EU.
He won 64% of Lib Dems, 49% of Labour voters and 57% of Remainers. However unless he implements a policy of Remaining are they going to vote for a Tory party he leads still leaving? Or would they vote for the Lib Dems or Labour?
Appealing to the "centre" is reasonable where the centre exists. It doesn't here. The nation is polarised and a Stewart-led Conservative Party would be rather dissociative. It would irritate both sides and appeal to none.
Interesting that winning 18% for the least experienced candidate in a five way contest (so for the ERG reader, average 20% each) is pathetic.
Is there a course where we can learn to speak ERG?
Hardline remainer = Someone who rules out remain and 2nd ref Very clever = Boris Johnson & Dominic Raab Reclaiming parliamentary sovereignty = Proroguing parliament
It would be very useful if those of us not in the ERG could get a copy of the latest re-definitions of the English language.
I’m not sure I agree with the tweet in the header - just because Stewart was popular with non Tories doesn’t mean he appeals to floating voters. The best way to assess that would be to screen for those who would consider voting Conservative and then present the leaders.
Do you support the state intervention that forces companies not to discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, age?
Yes. I'm not an anarchist, I do believe in minimialist interventionism and that is part of the minimalist that I believe in.
That's a rather large definition of "minimalist"
Treating people equally is a large definition?
Well, yes. That's why I said it. It's a nice stance (and one I quite like) but it's not a minimalist position.
Comments
I think with half a century's experience I know pretty well where the centre of the Conservative tradition is. Rory Stewart is absolutely bang in the middle of it. What the Conservative tradition certainly isn't is an extreme ideology obsessed with Brexit to the exclusion of all other considerations. That is Kipperism, not Conservatism.
The leader should be one that is better than average.
He's done well for a nobody. For a leadership contender its pretty pathetic - and the same goes for Hancock and the rest of the dwarves who've been knocked out so far.
Seriously though, one party planning a tax raid on gardens, another trying to make it much more difficult to get your internet porn - none of them really want the job of governing, do they?
Reminds me of SeanT's predictions of Sadiq Khan's imminent downfall because Khan had the temerity to challenge Uber when the whole of London (well SeanT at least) absolutely depends on Uber for, well, everything.
Presumably then, if a 2nd ref was in the GE winners' manifestos (a more likely possibility) you'd support a 2nd ref.
Of course, the worse Tories are as bad as Corbynites in not wanting floating voters. They aren't real Tories after all.
I can't see any other way out of this mess.
There is simply no substitute for making poor countries richer in order to achieve desirable social goals. That is achieved by capitalism, not by making rich countries poorer. It's great that thanks to their own industrial revolutions, Chinese, Taiwanese, South Koreans are no longer living in dire poverty. In due course, the same will be true of Indians and Sri Lankans. Their environments are doubtless less pristine than they were 60 years ago, but on every measure, their lives are a hell of a lot better.
Tell me which of us is being callous here.
Still, when No Deal happens, you will learn how much control you will have actually taken back.
It was the ERG which trashed the WA and gave cover to Labour and others not to vote for it. Anyway, it is now dead. There will be no transition, despite Boris’s lies about this last night. A crash out of the EU will have damaging effects on industry and agriculture and NI and much else besides. It won’t be good for the Tories. Nor will it do much for democracy either, which will likely come under strain when people realise they have been sold a pup.
But, hey, this is all an acceptable price to pay for those who’ve decided that the EU is some sort of evil being.
There is a wide variety of ways you can act without discriminating people on those grounds.