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  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,478
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.
    The liberal left hated Thatcher just as they hate Boris, did not stop Thatcher winning 3 general elections and will not stop Boris winning the next general election either
    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.
    Thatcher's party was extreme when you consider the Britain of the 1970s and what the Tories did to change the country. We have not seen such a degree of political change since.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    Wrong, Thatcher was a big Boris fan since he was one of the few Eurosceptic journalists in Brussels.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1137516/boris-johnson-tory-leadership-election-brexit-news-eu-margaret-thatcher-spt

    Picture of Thatcher with Boris here

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-johnson-teachers-demonised-margaret-thatcher-8567367.html
    That has more than the whiff of spin and bullshit about it. Not buying it. She had no time for flamboyant flip floppers like Boris.
    Alan Clarke, Jeffrey Archer, John Moore, Cecil Parkinson, Thatcher loved charismatic opportunists
    Good point, well made. She did like pretty ones and cads, but she never gave them real power. A little colour and decoration around the place. She would have not had serious time for Boris.
    She loved Ronald Reagan too who was even more powerful than her.

    He had integrity, unlike Boris. To my knowledge Thatcher didn't appoint him
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053

    But @HYUFD, the ERG have said that the Backstop is not the only thing wrong with the WA...

    Yes, the temporary Customs Union for GB is wrong for them too and Boris would remove that.

    It was May who insisted on that NOT Barnier
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
    Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell, but arrogant to bank on it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.
    The liberal left hated Thatcher just as they hate Boris, did not stop Thatcher winning 3 general elections and will not stop Boris winning the next general election either
    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.
    Agreed
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    #rorywalkson a good indication of some people’s views, which clearly is unrepresentative but he clearly had an impact.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,482
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    It's an amusing thought that Margaret Thatcher's pro-European views would disqualify her as a Tory by present standards.
    Thatcher also cut taxes and would have backed Leave in the referendum (she endorsed IDS and almost certainly Redwood after all)
    "Would have" backed Leave in the referendum?

    Surely you've discussed it with her many times ...
    Thatcher left a letter calling the 'EU project contrary to British intrrests and Parliamentary democracy'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3441473/Why-lady-turning-grave-Revealed-23-years-letter-proves-ex-aide-wrong-say-d-Dave-Europe.html
    There isn't really any doubt what her thoughts were - there's a whole chapter in Statecraft called 'Europe: Dreams and Nightmares', where she sets it out.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,851
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.
    The liberal left hated Thatcher just as they hate Boris, did not stop Thatcher winning 3 general elections and will not stop Boris winning the next general election either
    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.
    The most right wing manifesto the Conservatives were ever elected on was the 1987 manifesto.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,005
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
    Inserts video of the Everly Brothers here...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,332
    Finally an exciting end to a match in the CWC. Looks like the Black Caps are going to miss out at the moment.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
    Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell, but arrogant to bank on it.
    If you are not confident enough to believe in your leader and their message you certainly will not deliver it, as May discovered
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    Another anti Tory myth then
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    It's an amusing thought that Margaret Thatcher's pro-European views would disqualify her as a Tory by present standards.
    Thatcher also cut taxes and would have backed Leave in the referendum (she endorsed IDS and almost certainly Redwood after all)
    "Would have" backed Leave in the referendum?

    Surely you've discussed it with her many times ...
    Thatcher left a letter calling the 'EU project contrary to British intrrests and Parliamentary democracy'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3441473/Why-lady-turning-grave-Revealed-23-years-letter-proves-ex-aide-wrong-say-d-Dave-Europe.html
    There isn't really any doubt what her thoughts were - there's a whole chapter in Statecraft called 'Europe: Dreams and Nightmares', where she sets it out.
    Yes, she was a firm Eurosceptic by the end
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    New Zealand need 8 off the final over.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
    Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell, but arrogant to bank on it.
    If you are not confident enough to believe in your leader and their message you certainly will not deliver it, as May discovered
    You sound like a Corbynite.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,482
    HYUFD said:
    I'm really beginning to think this guy has a problem. This response is creepy.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    Believe in the Britain @HYUFD and anything is possible!

    🦄
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053
    edited June 2019
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
    Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell, but arrogant to bank on it.
    If you are not confident enough to believe in your leader and their message you certainly will not deliver it, as May discovered
    You sound like a Corbynite.
    Say what you like about Corbyn (and I am no fan) but he did have a clear message and true believers in it, much like Boris, much like Trump.

    May like Brown and Hillary did not
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,829
    edited June 2019
    nichomar said:

    #rorywalkson a good indication of some people’s views, he clearly had an impact.

    So does Piles :D
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    Kiwis have done it.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,957
    Scott_P said:
    Is the fish behind Boris supposed to be Farage?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,332
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    New Zealand need 8 off the final over.

    Just brilliant by Williamson but how many chances did SA throw away with missed catches, a caught behind not claimed, endless run out chances, so many opportunities.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
    The reaction of Betfair has been extremely boring.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    New Zealand need 8 off the final over.

    Just brilliant by Williamson but how many chances did SA throw away with missed catches, a caught behind not claimed, endless run out chances, so many opportunities.
    NZ did their best to help them... hit wicket etc.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    Wrong, Thatcher was a big Boris fan since he was one of the few Eurosceptic journalists in Brussels.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1137516/boris-johnson-tory-leadership-election-brexit-news-eu-margaret-thatcher-spt

    Picture of Thatcher with Boris here

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-johnson-teachers-demonised-margaret-thatcher-8567367.html
    That has more than the whiff of spin and bullshit about it. Not buying it. She had no time for flamboyant flip floppers like Boris.
    She also has lost her mind so badly that apparently thought she was still PM.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    HYUFD said:
    Sajid should just f*ck off and join the Lib Dems right?
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134

    HYUFD said:
    Sajid should just f*ck off and join the Lib Dems right?
    He's such a nice guy. He always takes time to be nice to the losers. Pure altruism.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,780

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into a death cult.
    How uncharacteristically hysterical!

    17.4 million people voted for Brexit. Many of them would vote Tory if there were economic disruptions, provided that Brexit has been delivered. Few will vote Tory if we don’t.

    The only thing that will utterly destroy the party is cancelling Brexit. If it doesn’t happen and someone else can be blamed, we will survive, but be out of power for a generation.
    The 17.4 million were given the opportunity to vote Tory in 2017 and they decided they did not want to do that...
    That isn't the full picture.

    The Tories got 13.6 million which is a hefty chunk of the 17.4 million. Though not all Brexit voters were in Great Britain. The DUP got a further 0.3 million so 13.9 million.

    However the Tories and DUP weren't the only pro-Brexit parties in 2017. Pro-Brexit parties won over 27.4 million votes in 2017.
    That isn't the full picture. No deal parties in the 2017 election only registered 1.8%. There was clearly a mandate for avoiding no deal.

    Now if only the Tories could find a leader who was willing to rule out remain and rule out no deal they would be able to respect both the 2017 election voters and the referendum voters.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    The reaction of Betfair has been extremely boring.

    +1
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134

    HYUFD said:
    I'm really beginning to think this guy has a problem. This response is creepy.
    You're warped.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,989

    HYUFD said:
    Sajid should just f*ck off and join the Lib Dems right?
    Hey. Nice new avatar. Beware prospective PMs chasing you around and casting amorous glances your way.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856

    But @HYUFD, the ERG have said that the Backstop is not the only thing wrong with the WA...

    We shouldn't tar most of the ERG with the brush of the self proclaimed Spartans. Most of the ERG backed the WA. However reluctantly they did so it makes a mockery of the idea it was not really leaving.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:


    Provided Boris commits to a FTA for GB the ERG will be on board with the temporary Customs Union for GB removed, only the DUP care about the backstop

    Still not enough to pass the HoC.
    Rubbish, it would last easily.

    With the ERG on board and a Tory majority even DUP and the handful of Tory Remainers could not stop it and it would again get 1 or 2 Labour Leave MPs too like Mann and Stringer as the WA did before
    You do not have a majority.
    We will when Boris wins the next general election
    Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell, but arrogant to bank on it.
    If you are not confident enough to believe in your leader and their message you certainly will not deliver it, as May discovered
    You sound like a Corbynite.
    Ouch. But its true. The tories have decided to match the worst parts of Corbyn ism.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    It is though its weird seeing a clownfish drawn as a large, fat predator. I thought they only ate plankton and algae and not other fish?
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    MangoMango Posts: 1,013
    Byronic said:



    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.

    I am second to very few in my dislike of Thatcher, and firmly believe that many of the UK's structural problems can be traced back to her government. And the best thing that can be said of her views of Germany, or gay rights, is that she was a product of her time.

    But intellectually, morally and strategically, she was vastly superior to all of these current Tory shysters and clowns.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,010
    HYUFD said:
    Rory has now moved on to a full scale Mahdi delusion.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Byronic said:

    The clever, ruthless way Boris and his team have commanded and manipulated this entire election, gives me very very very faint hope he might not be a total disaster as PM.

    Faint. I did say faint. Faint hope.

    The reason it is faint is that this part is within his control and he has probably spent most of his time in the last few years working toward it. But he cannot control parliament so easily, or the EU.
    Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement remember, he wants to deliver Brexit and a Deal but needs to be elected leader first and has now eliminated his most dangerous opponent, Raab and the candidate with the most momentum, Stewart
    He wants a deal but how does he get one unless the EU are the greatest bluffers of all time? He would bring forth the WA with mere cosmetic sts.
    Win a snap general election after the EU refuse to renegotiate (which Boris will only try for show anyway), hold a referendum in NI on the backstop, then use his majority to ignore the DUP and deliver the WA and a FTA for GB.

    Perhaps you could give us a rough sketch of how you see those events fitting in between 22 July and 31 October?
    Boris wins a majority in a general election by mid September and it all follows from there
    Yes - that leaves six weeks. So when have you got the Northern Ireland referendum crayoned in for?
    Could be done in a month.

    General election by early September, Boris Tory majority.

    Backstop referendum by early October in NI, backstop majority.

    Withdrawal Agreement minus temporary Customs Union for GB but with NI backstop until a technical solution is found to the Irish border passes by October 31st with the new Tory majority in the Commons.

    Negotiations begin on a FTA for GB with the EU from November
    Your timings don't work. Please put in dates for the following key events that must by law all occur.

    Date of General Election
    Date of Queen's Speech after General Election
    Date of Third Reading of NI Referendum Act
    Date of NI Referendum
    Date of Third Reading of Withdrawal Act.
    Provided Boris wins a majority the Withdrawal Agreement can be passed quickly.

    We have then left the EU by the end of October, the NI referendum just confirmatory.
    You said the referendum was going to be in early October only a couple of hours ago!

    You _are_ Boris Johnson, aren't you?!
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nichomar said:

    #rorywalkson a good indication of some people’s views, which clearly is unrepresentative but he clearly had an impact.

    Where? On Twitter?

    Twitter is not the country.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,851

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct, that Ireland needed far fewer people working on the land, far more efficiently, with far bigger landholdings. Emigration was a sensible long-term policy. What was disgusting was their view that widespread starvation was the necessary means to achieve reform. Nassau Senior was disappointed to discover that "only" 900,000 Irish had starved, as that would be be insufficient to transform Irish agriculture.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    Rory has now moved on to a full scale Mahdi delusion.
    Please. You were told only a short while ago not to be nasty.

    Try to be more positive. Go out for a walk in the country. If you don't have time for that, watch a video of Rory going out for a walk in the country.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    Rory has now moved on to a full scale Mahdi delusion.
    How?
  • Options
    _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    I'm really beginning to think this guy has a problem. This response is creepy.
    You're warped.
    That’s hardly news. This is the same poster who stated publicly, and still believes, that Jo Cox’s murder was a false flag. He’s a crank.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    viewcode said:



    I think you could do a GE in that period, but isn't the timing tight for a Referendum? Funds have to be voted for, the Electoral Commission has to clear the question, campaigns have to be formed, nominated and chosen, then there has to be an actual campaign. There were four months and three days between Cameron s announcement and 2016ref. To do the same by Oct 31 you'd need to announce it sometime in the next week and you'll be fighting a GE campaign at the same time. So a two-front war and BXP still extant. That's...brave?

    Yup, the timing seems like the killer for the referendum idea. An Article 50 extension to have the referendum would be sensible, but it would be sub-optimal for a GE campaign against BXP, to put it mildly.

    That said, a snap election running on getting a majority to dump the DUP and put the border in the Irish Sea looks like the best bet to actually get Brexit done. He can't really run on TMay's Deal at this point.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    #rorywalkson a good indication of some people’s views, which clearly is unrepresentative but he clearly had an impact.

    Where? On Twitter?

    Twitter is not the country.
    Mango said:

    Byronic said:



    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.

    I am second to very few in my dislike of Thatcher, and firmly believe that many of the UK's structural problems can be traced back to her government. And the best thing that can be said of her views of Germany, or gay rights, is that she was a product of her time.

    But intellectually, morally and strategically, she was vastly superior to all of these current Tory shysters and clowns.
    I ripped my conservative membership card up when she was elected and never regretted it.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    But @HYUFD, the ERG have said that the Backstop is not the only thing wrong with the WA...

    We shouldn't tar most of the ERG with the brush of the self proclaimed Spartans. Most of the ERG backed the WA. However reluctantly they did so it makes a mockery of the idea it was not really leaving.
    I would have been one of the Spartans.

    However Gallowgate is wrong. The Brady Amendment (back the Withdrawal Agreement so long as backstop is changed) was backed in the Commons 317 - 301.

    The real hardcore extremists in the Tory Party are the 8 MPs who voted even against that. Of those 8 already 3 are no longer in the party (Heidi, Wollaston and Soubry) and Anne Marie Morris was the sole Brexiteer to rebel on that vote. The other hardcore extremists who rebelled even then were Bebb, Clarke, Grieve and Lee.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    Updated spreadsheet with 4 candidates.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0

    Endorsements:

    Johnson 128
    Hunt 42
    Gove 35
    Javid 22

    Number of votes more than endorsements in today's round:

    Johnson +15
    Hunt +12
    Gove +16
    Javid +16
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,708

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    Rory has now moved on to a full scale Mahdi delusion.
    How?
    Supersonic hyperbole, Mike.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sajid should just f*ck off and join the Lib Dems right?
    He's such a nice guy. He always takes time to be nice to the losers. Pure altruism.
    Always be nice to people as you climb the ladder. You may need help getting down.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,708
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    You really have a thing for chasing others away from their party don't you?

    If you cut Rory he would bleed Tory.
    “... the party has left me..” has become a cliche for a reason.

  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,880
    Penddu said:

    Serious question... how do you say VONC'd...

    Vee Oh En Seed
    Vonked

    ????

    Vonked. Well, it's how I say it.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,308
    edited June 2019
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.
    The liberal left hated Thatcher just as they hate Boris, did not stop Thatcher winning 3 general elections and will not stop Boris winning the next general election either
    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.
    You forgot c) meanwhile, society becomes ever more liberal

    Which may have something to do with a) and b.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Thursday June 20

    10.00 – 12.00: Fourth ballot.

    13.00 approx: Announcement of result.

    14.00: Deadline for candidate withdrawal.

    15.30 – 17.30: Fifth ballot.

    18.00 approx: Announcement of result."

    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/timetable-for-the-parliamentary-stage-of-the-conservative-leadership-election.html
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,880
    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is the fish behind Boris supposed to be Farage?
    If you look at the bottom half of the purple fish it has the word "Brexit" in white letters on it.

    A good rule of thumb is that if you have to have a word on your cartoon to tell people what it is, then it isn't a good cartoon.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    viewcode said:

    Penddu said:

    Serious question... how do you say VONC'd...

    Vee Oh En Seed
    Vonked

    ????

    Vonked. Well, it's how I say it.
    “no confidenced”
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,708
    From the musical Hamilton; substitute candidates’ names as appropriate...

    The people are asking to hear my voice (oh!)
    For the country is facing a difficult choice (oh!)
    And if you were to ask me who I'd promote (oh!)
    Jefferson has my vote (oh!)
    I have never agreed with Jefferson once (oh!)
    We have fought on like seventy-five different fronts (oh!)
    But when all is said and all is done
    Jefferson has beliefs, Burr has none (ooh!)

    Well, I'll be damned
    Well, I'll be damned
    Hamilton's on your side
    Well, I'll be damned
    Well, I'll be damned
    And?
    You won in a landslide!...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2019
    Apparently mr patel twitter account was active just two days before the debate. I think the bbc are telling porkies about the level of their background checks or their incredibly incompetent.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
    AndyJS said:

    "Thursday June 20

    10.00 – 12.00: Fourth ballot.

    13.00 approx: Announcement of result.

    14.00: Deadline for candidate withdrawal.

    15.30 – 17.30: Fifth ballot.

    18.00 approx: Announcement of result."

    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/timetable-for-the-parliamentary-stage-of-the-conservative-leadership-election.html

    Wow.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.
    The liberal left hated Thatcher just as they hate Boris, did not stop Thatcher winning 3 general elections and will not stop Boris winning the next general election either
    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.
    You forgot c) meanwhile, society becomes ever more liberal

    Does it?

    I'm not seeing that with personal privacy, free speech or regulation.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,334
    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Nigelb said:

    From the musical Hamilton; substitute candidates’ names as appropriate...

    The people are asking to hear my voice (oh!)
    For the country is facing a difficult choice (oh!)
    And if you were to ask me who I'd promote (oh!)
    Jefferson has my vote (oh!)
    I have never agreed with Jefferson once (oh!)
    We have fought on like seventy-five different fronts (oh!)
    But when all is said and all is done
    Jefferson has beliefs, Burr has none (ooh!)

    Well, I'll be damned
    Well, I'll be damned
    Hamilton's on your side
    Well, I'll be damned
    Well, I'll be damned
    And?
    You won in a landslide!...

    Talk less

    Smile more

    Don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,421
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct, that Ireland needed far fewer people working on the land, far more efficiently, with far bigger landholdings. Emigration was a sensible long-term policy. What was disgusting was their view that widespread starvation was the necessary means to achieve reform. Nassau Senior was disappointed to discover that "only" 900,000 Irish had starved, as that would be be insufficient to transform Irish agriculture.
    I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    SeanT will be pleased to hear that.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,723
    viewcode said:

    Penddu said:

    Serious question... how do you say VONC'd...

    Vee Oh En Seed
    Vonked

    ????

    Vonked. Well, it's how I say it.
    Confidence has a hard C, so Vonked is the correct neologism.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,708

    Nigelb said:

    From the musical Hamilton; substitute candidates’ names as appropriate...

    The people are asking to hear my voice (oh!)
    For the country is facing a difficult choice (oh!)
    And if you were to ask me who I'd promote (oh!)
    Jefferson has my vote (oh!)
    I have never agreed with Jefferson once (oh!)
    We have fought on like seventy-five different fronts (oh!)
    But when all is said and all is done
    Jefferson has beliefs, Burr has none (ooh!)

    Well, I'll be damned
    Well, I'll be damned
    Hamilton's on your side
    Well, I'll be damned
    Well, I'll be damned
    And?
    You won in a landslide!...

    Talk less

    Smile more

    Don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for
    Yes, Boris is Burr.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    England's Dylan Hartley, Danny Care & Chris Robshaw set to miss out on World Cup
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,723

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct, that Ireland needed far fewer people working on the land, far more efficiently, with far bigger landholdings. Emigration was a sensible long-term policy. What was disgusting was their view that widespread starvation was the necessary means to achieve reform. Nassau Senior was disappointed to discover that "only" 900,000 Irish had starved, as that would be be insufficient to transform Irish agriculture.
    I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
    Being anti welfare and outdoor relief was a way of allowing market forces. The deaths were merely market mechanisms at work in the 19th Century Libertarian view.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:
    Rory has now moved on to a full scale Mahdi delusion.
    How?
    Supersonic hyperbole, Mike.

    It is a shame he put in that stuff about believing.

    It tends to take the shine off the most memorable quotation from the campaign so far.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    Hopefully Boris will get rid of it. It's completely stupid.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    Piss off the wankers and there really is no-one left to vote Tory.......
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,482
    How would any PM give the man a job without him being a constant worry?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    MaxPB said:

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    Hopefully Boris will get rid of it. It's completely stupid.
    Sums up Mays premiership...its cone hotline for 21st century.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    It's nice that you guys have all come round to accepting Thatcher's Unquestionable Greatness.
    The liberal left hated Thatcher just as they hate Boris, did not stop Thatcher winning 3 general elections and will not stop Boris winning the next general election either
    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.
    You forgot c) meanwhile, society becomes ever more liberal

    Does it?

    I'm not seeing that with personal privacy, free speech or regulation.
    By liberal these people mean "leftist" which is more government and more state intervention. Orwellian.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,829

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    Piss off the wankers and there really is no-one left to vote Tory.......
    :D
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,829
    I always thought a fat sex-maniac like Boris would get rid of all the Puritanism and nannying...
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited June 2019

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    I did a YouGov recently and this was part of the questioning. Apparently this age verification and ID system goes beyond adult websites. They were even talking about it being used to shop online for non pornographic material/ non adult material!

    I hope they put this into the long grass as I cannot understand the need for such a statist draconian approach. If people are worried about children accessing pornography then the parents should filter their broadband or Wi-fi or whatever they use via parental settings.

    When I was a lad people used to leave pornographic magazines in fields or in bushes in parks; the internet has diminished this activity. What I am saying is there has since the 1960s always been this problem. An ill-judged heavy handed Government decision to complicate life beyond pornography is unacceptable and the people who use pornography legally should not be targeted in this way either.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    I did a YouGov recently and this was part of the questioning. Apparently this age verification and ID system goes beyond adult websites. They were even talking about it being used to shop online non pornographic material!

    I hope they put this into the long grass as I cannot understand the need for such a statist draconian approach. If people are worried about children accessing pornography then the parents should filter their broadband or Wi-fi or whatever they use via parental settings. When I was a lad people used to leave pornographic magazines in fields or in bushes in parks the internet has diminished this activity. What I am saying is there has since the 1960s always been this problem. An ill-judged heavy handed Government decision to complicate life beyond pornography is unacceptable and the people who use pornography legally should not be targeted in this way either.
    Theresa May. That's the real reason. She is a big state authoritarian who would be at home in the old SDP.
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thatcher would have no time for Boris. Wouldn’t have made it to cabinet.

    Wrong, Thatcher was a big Boris fan since he was one of the few Eurosceptic journalists in Brussels.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1137516/boris-johnson-tory-leadership-election-brexit-news-eu-margaret-thatcher-spt

    Picture of Thatcher with Boris here

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-johnson-teachers-demonised-margaret-thatcher-8567367.html
    That has more than the whiff of spin and bullshit about it. Not buying it. She had no time for flamboyant flip floppers like Boris.
    She also has lost her mind so badly that apparently thought she was still PM.
    Johnson was one of numerous people who helped to poison the relationship between the UK and the rest of the EU, mis-led newspaper readers and paved the way for the 2016 vote. When Nick Robinson interviewed David Lidington on R4 today, Lidington conspicuously avoided saying that he had any confidence in Johnson.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    AndyJS said:

    "Thursday June 20

    10.00 – 12.00: Fourth ballot.

    13.00 approx: Announcement of result.

    14.00: Deadline for candidate withdrawal.

    15.30 – 17.30: Fifth ballot.

    18.00 approx: Announcement of result."

    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/timetable-for-the-parliamentary-stage-of-the-conservative-leadership-election.html

    What time does the runner up resign?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct, that Ireland needed far fewer people working on the land, far more efficiently, with far bigger landholdings. Emigration was a sensible long-term policy. What was disgusting was their view that widespread starvation was the necessary means to achieve reform. Nassau Senior was disappointed to discover that "only" 900,000 Irish had starved, as that would be be insufficient to transform Irish agriculture.
    I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
    Being anti welfare and outdoor relief was a way of allowing market forces. The deaths were merely market mechanisms at work in the 19th Century Libertarian view.
    Malthusian?
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Sean_F said:



    There are two constants with the liberal left in every age:-

    (a) the Conservative party as it presently is is the most extreme it's ever been;

    (b) it will invariably be contrasted with a far more liberal Conservative party in the past (in this case, the party of Margaret Thatcher) despite the fact that a previous generation of liberal left wingers reviled that party as being extreme.

    Yeah, if you exclude the times that wasn't the case. I don't remember people saying Cameron was to the right of Thatcher between 2007 and 2010, for instance. During the Coalition years you might have had a few people on the fringe say it. Was John Major reviled as further right than Thatcher? Don't think so.

    And then you can flip it round: Brown was more extreme than Blair, Miliband more extreme than Brown, Corbyn more extreme than Miliband.

  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,957
    viewcode said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is the fish behind Boris supposed to be Farage?
    If you look at the bottom half of the purple fish it has the word "Brexit" in white letters on it.

    A good rule of thumb is that if you have to have a word on your cartoon to tell people what it is, then it isn't a good cartoon.
    Ah, I see it now. A cartoonist from the Ben Garrison school then.

    I still think Farage is probably the fish that eats Boris, given 46% of Tories would be happy to have him as leader, and Boris is arrogant enough to believe he has enough charisma to do a reverse ferret on Brexit.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,829
    Jonathan said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Thursday June 20

    10.00 – 12.00: Fourth ballot.

    13.00 approx: Announcement of result.

    14.00: Deadline for candidate withdrawal.

    15.30 – 17.30: Fifth ballot.

    18.00 approx: Announcement of result."

    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/timetable-for-the-parliamentary-stage-of-the-conservative-leadership-election.html

    What time does the runner up resign?
    Just think if Javid withdraws at 9am, Gove beats Hunt at 1pm and then Gove withdraws at 2pm (after being promised Number 11) Boris Johnson could be Prime Minister by this time tomorrow! :D
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,851

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct, that Ireland needed far fewer people working on the land, far more efficiently, with far bigger landholdings. Emigration was a sensible long-term policy. What was disgusting was their view that widespread starvation was the necessary means to achieve reform. Nassau Senior was disappointed to discover that "only" 900,000 Irish had starved, as that would be be insufficient to transform Irish agriculture.
    I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
    It's possible for people to be enlightened on one issue, and completely blind on another. The same economists objected to laws banning the use of child labour, for example. We had to wait till 1886 before it became unlawful to employ children in brothels.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,880
    MaxPB said:

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    Hopefully Boris will get rid of it. It's completely stupid.
    He might. He might not. He's Boris. Who can tell... :(
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,723

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct,
    I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
    Being anti welfare and outdoor relief was a way of allowing market forces. The deaths were merely market mechanisms at work in the 19th Century Libertarian view.
    Malthusian?
    It is much like the right wing perspective on climate change now, only the deaths will be further offshore. The price of saving lives is too high for them.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    The Tory Party is full of twits I see.

    Boo. Hiss.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,723
    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Thursday June 20

    10.00 – 12.00: Fourth ballot.

    13.00 approx: Announcement of result.

    14.00: Deadline for candidate withdrawal.

    15.30 – 17.30: Fifth ballot.

    18.00 approx: Announcement of result."

    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/timetable-for-the-parliamentary-stage-of-the-conservative-leadership-election.html

    What time does the runner up resign?
    Just think if Javid withdraws at 9am, Gove beats Hunt at 1pm and then Gove withdraws at 2pm (after being promised Number 11) Boris Johnson could be Prime Minister by this time tomorrow! :D
    With the history between Gove and Johnson, is it really possible for Gove to be in his cabinet?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Isnt chris grayling nailed on for #11 ;-)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,851
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rory has more chance of being the next Liberal PM than a Tory one

    Or of leading a new centre-right One Nation Party if Boris is stupid enough to crash us out in chaos and thereby convert the Conservative Party into an unelectable death cult if it's not one already.
    Rory is anti tax cuts and anti hard Brexit, his agenda was more LD than Tory.

    He may as well join Umunna in the LDs if he really wants to be PM, there is little room for a pro EU, anti tax cut 2nd Tory Party
    He's anti stupid and irresponsible tax cuts, which is bang slap in the middle of Conservativism. And he's anti a chaotic ideologically-driven crash-out which would destroy jobs and disrupt citizens' lives, which is pure Conservativism.
    You and Rory are really Peelite Liberals not Tories
    So you are against Catholic Emancipation then? And in favour of starving the Irish? Against free trade? And in favour of subsidies to powerful interest groups?
    Well a majority of Tory MPs at the time did vote for the Corn Laws and tariffs which was why the Peelites left to form the Liberals with the Whigs
    One of the paradoxes of that time is that if the Conservatives had not fallen from power, the Irish would not have starved. The Conservatives were willing to maintain outdoor relief in Ireland, whereas the Whigs took a much harder line - basically starve or emigrate. Abolishing the Corn Laws did f*ck all to ease the plight of the Irish.
    It's hard to understand now, even by the standards of the time, why that was an acceptable policy in the UK.
    Whig economists were undoubtedly correct,
    I just struggle to understand that was serious in an age where Parliament had just voted to abolish slavery on moral grounds.
    Being anti welfare and outdoor relief was a way of allowing market forces. The deaths were merely market mechanisms at work in the 19th Century Libertarian view.
    Malthusian?
    It is much like the right wing perspective on climate change now, only the deaths will be further offshore. The price of saving lives is too high for them.
    I'd have thought it's the hardline Greens who would be most keen on population reduction, and oppose economic growth in poorer countries.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    Breaking

    HMG delays age verification for adult videos

    Hopefully Boris will get rid of it. It's completely stupid.
    He might. He might not. He's Boris. Who can tell... :(
    I should imagine Boris enjoys a bit pornography!

    In a hundred years time no doubt they will refer to Boris's weakness for female flesh as glowingly as Lloyd George's! At public schools pupils will refer to doing a 'Boris' as part of the fagging ritual of initiation! The definition of a Boris is still to be distilled and crystallised but I am sure it will stick around in the annals of history!
This discussion has been closed.