Still a hung parliament on that and ignore the headline and look at the provinces e.g. Trudeau still leads big in Quebec and is about tied in Ontario where most of the marginal seats are, the Tories mainly from Alberta shere they are polling well over 50%. Trudeau also still tends to lead as best PM and as Australia proved recently the incumbent can still win if they lead on that even if their party trails. Incidentally my sister met Trudeau recently at the Southsea D Day commemorations where she was performing with the First Aid Nursing Yeomanary and he was quite charismatic in person so would not rule him out yet.
That said if the Tories to win their leader Andrew Scheer is a big Brexit backer and would happily speed through a FTA with PM Boris (though Trudeau has said he would go a trade deal too)
I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.
Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.
So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.
Welcome.
The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.
The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
Thanks for the welcome.
That was the previous EU parliament's negotiations. It's not clear what will happen now.
Does anyone know if the EU's main negotiators Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk are still in power after the election?
If the Conservatives in their current form were to disappear, would they be missed?
Lib Dems, and to an extent UKIP/BXP or Farage for short, have shown that parties can come back from a period of irrelevance
Too true.
If you look in the archives, you'll see a lot of PB posts about how the LDs would take decades to recover from the coalition (if it ever happened). Yet here we are in 2019, and the LDs just beat the Tories and Labour in a nationwide election.
The LDs could retreat to zero or end up in power. (And the same is true of the Brexit Party.)
C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.
According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
Strange scenes on last nights This Week, was Michael Portillo, who has been criticial of Boris Johnson for 16 years, and cheered Michael Gove to the rafters for stopping him being PM in 2017, said Johnson by a landslide would be a great thing (The reason being a canddate winning by a landslide is better than a narrow win, he still thinks Boris is bad)
Interesting, I missed the show last night.
I think if Boris gets an immediate boost in the opinion polls he'll probably go for a snap election. But it would have to be a very big boost given the Tories are currently on 17%.
I cant see The Brexit Party competing with Boris led Conservatives committed to an Oct 31 departure, and they are 26% of the latest opinion poll.
It would certainly be a dilemma for Farage. I think lots of his supporters would prefer in a snap election to back Boris. So if the Brexit Party stands it risks denying Boris the majority he needs. At the same time, can Farage trust Boris? (a) to achieve a Hard Brexit majority and (b) to carry out No Deal.
Lots of lovely drama still to come.
This is the great unknown, would Farage do a deal with Boris, and vice versa ? They would be fools not to - I can't see Brexit getting over 100 seats ANY other way whatever the polls would say.
No way could I see Boris or any Tory leader doing a deal with Farage.
As a Remainer, would you rather have Boris or Nigel as PM?
Possibly Nigel. Leave.EU advocated Richard North's "Flexit", which involved a phased withdrawal. Plus (although I think he is anti-Muslim), he's not racist in the usually accepted sense. Plus he is a former metals dealer who entered politics, grew or resurrected two parties, engineered a referendum and won it. Plus he isn't in Bannon's pocket.
Strange scenes on last nights This Week, was Michael Portillo, who has been criticial of Boris Johnson for 16 years, and cheered Michael Gove to the rafters for stopping him being PM in 2017, said Johnson by a landslide would be a great thing (The reason being a canddate winning by a landslide is better than a narrow win, he still thinks Boris is bad)
Interesting, I missed the show last night.
I think if Boris gets an immediate boost in the opinion polls he'll probably go for a snap election. But it would have to be a very big boost given the Tories are currently on 17%.
I cant see The Brexit Party competing with Boris led Conservatives committed to an Oct 31 departure, and they are 26% of the latest opinion poll.
It would certainly be a dilemma for Farage. I think lots of his supporters would prefer in a snap election to back Boris. So if the Brexit Party stands it risks denying Boris the majority he needs. At the same time, can Farage trust Boris? (a) to achieve a Hard Brexit majority and (b) to carry out No Deal.
Lots of lovely drama still to come.
This is the great unknown, would Farage do a deal with Boris, and vice versa ? They would be fools not to - I can't see Brexit getting over 100 seats ANY other way whatever the polls would say.
No way could I see Boris or any Tory leader doing a deal with Farage.
As a Remainer, would you rather have Boris or Nigel as PM?
Boris. I still don't think he really believes in Brexit.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.
What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?
I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.
It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.
And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
"Adhering to democratic norms" implies that you do think the government should be constrained by certain constitutional principles and it shouldn't just be the case that the majority can do what they like. It is a good thing if one of those democratic norms means not being able to trample on the rights of individual citizens in respect of their position within a broader European Union.
I would take the view that Attlee's government was indeed constrained by constitutional principles, notwithstanding that we were not part of the EU. A vigorous democratic culture is the best means of protecting constitutional principles.
Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.
What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?
I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.
It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.
And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?
Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?
If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
For the Conservative Party to throw away their USP is madness.
I expect Boris to rat and take the path of least resistance.
What is the Conservative Party really for? I used to know that in the 80s and 90s under Thatcher and Major (although I never supported them), and I still kind of get their (very niche) USP in Scotland. But what about England? Can anybody summarise the Con USP in one short paragraph? Important caveat: without mentioning Brexit.
Richard has explained it well at the end of his thread header.
The point is that it now risks losing it.
You mean: “pragmatism, business-friendly financial discipline, and facing up to difficult decisions”?
They lost those three USPs many years ago. Please don’t embarrass yourself by asking us to list all the legion examples of the Conservatives being unpragmatic, running away from difficult decisions, financial ill-discipline and telling business to go FO.
You’re a partisan anti-Conservative who sees them as the biggest obstacle to Scottish nationalism, so I wouldn’t expect you to post an objective view.
Nonsense. The biggest obstacle to Scottish independence is SLab, and they are well and truly done in finest missionary style.
The SCons are a side-show.
It looks like you are just begging for a long list of examples of the Conservatives being unpragmatic, running away from difficult decisions, financial ill-discipline and telling business to go FO.
You've proved my point for me.
You made up your mind long before you even posed the question (which was clearly purely rhetorical) so there is no point engaging with you on the subject.
It's a common enough technique here on PB.com. You start from where you want to be and construct your argument to justify that position.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.
Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.
So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.
Welcome.
The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.
The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
And if their conditions cannot be net then they are not negotiating in good faith
Things I really hate about the 21st century ================================== 1: tattoos 2: facial tattoos 3: people who say "thanks" when the mean "please" 4: people who say "are you alright" instead of "can I help you" 5: the phrase "bring you along" 6: the phrase "reach out" 7: the ability of people to alter others' behaviour by screaming on Twitter 8: vaping 9: the incorrect use of the terms "in good faith" and "in utmost good faith" 10: cheek piercing and flesh tunnels
I have to say, that's a good list. The only point I'd disagree with is vaping. It's saved me a fortune, stopped me stinking like an ashtray, and probably extended my life expectancy significantly. But I understand how it can annoy other people so I don't blow huge clouds everywhere.
Being the out of touch old git I am, I'll admit to having to look up what a flesh tunnel was too
I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.
Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.
So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.
Re-opening negotiations means an extension is needed. Even signing off May's deal requires quite a bit of legislative acivity in Westminster and Brussels.
So anyone promising re-opened negotiations really means an extension.
Given that a GE before September is a virtual impossibility, and that producing the required legislation is probably a six week task, then you are absolutely right, reopening negotiations means an extension.
So, what's Boris to do: he's promised both - reopened negotiations and to leave by October 31st?
Presumably he's betting on the EU telling him to "fuck off", and enabling the UK to leave by the end of October through being kicked out. In this scenario, he blames an problems on the EU. (Although history suggests the party in power will get the blame, irrespective of where ultimate responsibility lies.)
The risk with this is that the EU hands him an extension to 2022.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Join the Liberal Democrats/Change UK where they belong.
Then we can have a party that truly does represent huge swathes of the country, as the referendum itself proved with the huge disconnect between what 52% of the public really thought vs the Conservative Party position on Europe.
And the same applies, when you examine the polling, to issues like the death penalty, ECHR, grammar schools, military cutbacks and foreign intervention.
Still a hung parliament on that and ignore the headline and look at the provinces e.g. Trudeau still leads big in Quebec and is about tied in Ontario where most of the marginal seats are, the Tories mainly from Alberta shere they are polling well over 50%. Trudeau also still tends to lead as best PM and as Australia proved recently the incumbent can still win if they lead on that even if their party trails. Incidentally my sister met Trudeau recently at the Southsea D Day commemorations where she was performing with the First Aid Nursing Yeomanary and he was quite charismatic in person so would not rule him out yet.
That said if the Tories to win their leader Andrew Scheer is a big Brexit backer and would happily speed through a FTA with PM Boris (though Trudeau has said he would go a trade deal too)
Note too the biggest gainers in Canadian polls are the Greens, up 8% from the last election to 11% from 3% ie more than the Conservatives current lead over the Liberals.
Whether Trudeau can squeeze the Greens back by polling day could be crucial as to whether he is re elected or not
C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.
According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
For the Conservative Party to throw away their USP is madness.
I expect Boris to rat and take the path of least resistance.
What is the Conservative Party really for? I used to know that in the 80s and 90s under Thatcher and Major (although I never supported them), and I still kind of get their (very niche) USP in Scotland. But what about England? Can anybody summarise the Con USP in one short paragraph? Important caveat: without mentioning Brexit.
Reform that you may preserve
Acting as a sea anchor on change so that it happens gradually and with deliberation rather than at a rate that unsettles people
And a No Deal Brexit is consistent with that how, exactly?
The rule was not to mention Brexit
As a good Conservative I abide by the rules
I’m asking the question now.
How do you reconcile a No Deal Brexit with your definition of Conservatism?
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.
What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?
I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.
It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.
And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?
Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?
If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
Are you against having a constitution in principle?
C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.
According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.
What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?
I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.
It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.
And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?
Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?
If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
Are you against having a constitution in principle?
And your answers to my other two questions are?
I see no reason for a written constitution.
As to the rest, I think that a vigorous democracy is the best bastion against tyranny. Plenty of tyrannies have had written constitutions that theoretically guarantee all kinds of rights, while violating them in practice.
I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.
Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.
So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.
Welcome.
The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.
The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
And if their conditions cannot be net then they are not negotiating in good faith
Things I really hate about the 21st century ================================== 1: tattoos 2: facial tattoos 3: people who say "thanks" when the mean "please" 4: people who say "are you alright" instead of "can I help you" 5: the phrase "bring you along" 6: the phrase "reach out" 7: the ability of people to alter others' behaviour by screaming on Twitter 8: vaping 9: the incorrect use of the terms "in good faith" and "in utmost good faith" 10: cheek piercing and flesh tunnels
I had "thank you for your outreach" the other day.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
By that reckoning young graduates in London should care only about housing and debt.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
By that reckoning young graduates in London should care only about housing and debt.
Young graduates in London do care about housing. Very much so.
C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.
According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
England is due what market traders euphemistically call a “correction”. A bit of bread and water might do them good.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
People have affection and loyalty towards it.
As you're discovering, people have affection and loyalty towards the European Union too. Is there a tipping point beyond which you would accept that membership of the EU should be regarded as a conservative principle?
I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.
Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.
So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.
Welcome.
The EU essentially has three preconditions to negotiations. One, to do with citizen rights is uncontroversial to most people. The second is only money. The third the is the blocker. The Irish "backstop" - actually the requirement that Northern Ireland must not diverge from a Republic of Ireland in the EU.
The EU won't budge from these conditions. Everything else is up for negotiation. But it was anyway, with "May's Deal"
Thanks for the welcome.
That was the previous EU parliament's negotiations. It's not clear what will happen now.
Does anyone know if the EU's main negotiators Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk are still in power after the election?
Ireland can't afford to compromise on the border, either to get a deal or as a collateral of No Deal. That hasn't changed. The other members don't have the same compulsion but will likely prioritise the interest of a fellow member over a non member.
Northern Ireland can afford a hard border even less than the Republic. If people in GB cared two hoots about Northern Ireland they would sign up to the backstop in an instant. But they don't and so they haven't.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
Don't disclose the following numbers (because it's personal information and this is the internet!), but bank balance is not enough info to categorise wealth. Salary, positive equity and credit limit are also important, arguably more so.
Can somebody just remind me, what is conservative about Brexit?
There is nothing conservative about the act of Brexit; therein lies the problem.
The motivation for wanting Brexit - the hankering for an imagined past and for past glories - is of course very conservative.
That hankering for an imagined (or even real but long-gone) past is not conservatism; you cannot conserve what is long-since gone. If anything it is historical re-enactmentism.
Maybe the Conservative Party should rename itself the History Party. The name may soon become very appropriate.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
You view, in hindsight, pride in the UK as the central rationale for Brexit and see its dissolution as just punishment for voting for it in the first place, and protection against it ever happening again.
Quite aside from being an utterly barking and fanatical belief, it's also delusional.
An independent England would be even more likely to plough its own furrow.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
People have affection and loyalty towards it.
Pull the other one. If that was true then there would have been no need for Project Fear.
Better Together kept the Union going in 2014 through good old fashioned threats. That card has been played now.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
People have affection and loyalty towards it.
As you're discovering, people have affection and loyalty towards the European Union too. Is there a tipping point beyond which you would accept that membership of the EU should be regarded as a conservative principle?
Many Conservatives would be happy with de Gaulle's Europe des Patries.
C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.
According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
People have affection and loyalty towards it.
As you're discovering, people have affection and loyalty towards the European Union too. Is there a tipping point beyond which you would accept that membership of the EU should be regarded as a conservative principle?
A minority do, yes.
Suppose the EU was like the Roman Empire in 300 AD and I lived in Britain. I expect I'd be a Roman patriot, and see no reason to change things. I'd see it as working well.
But now, I'm being asked to give up an independence which I cherish, for reasons which seem trivial to me - a couple of extra points on GDP.
I note the comedy police have determined that Farage is just another snowflake and they'll not be placing Jo Brand in pink furry handcuffs any time soon.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
People have affection and loyalty towards it.
Pull the other one. If that was true then there would have been no need for Project Fear.
Better Together kept the Union going in 2014 through good old fashioned threats. That card has been played now.
You are the living embodiment of the No True Scotsman fallacy. You believe that No True Scotsman is a Unionist.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
England is due what market traders euphemistically call a “correction”. A bit of bread and water might do them good.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Do you think these people are protesting about GDP figures?
Brexit will fail. It essentially has already. Will those that voted Leave admit they made a mistake and embrace the European Union? Like Heck. But there is a market for those that don't want to be eaten up by the Farage poison of betrayal. As they adapt to the new reality of the UK as a second class satellite of the EU and national stasis they will look for moral superiority in other ways. That's a market Johnson can address.
What reason do people on the centre-right have to embrace the European Union?
I know you love the EU, but sell it to me. Tell me why I should love it.
Being in the EU decisively increases the power of the citizen versus the state by guaranteeing that your economic freedoms cannot be curtailed at the national level.
I take the view that if a voting majority wishes to pursue left wing policies, they are entitled to do so, so long as they adhere to democratic norms.
It would be a disgrace if a government like Attlee's was barred from pursuing policies that had got them elected.
And, the same applies to right wing governments, too.
Are you against constitutions and the ECHR in principle as well?
Do you think that an elected government should be completely unrestrained?
If a government was democratically elected on a policy of slaughtering every person called Sean or Siobhan, would you have any issues with that?
I would indeed be against the ECHR in principle.
Are you against having a constitution in principle?
And your answers to my other two questions are?
I see no reason for a written constitution.
As to the rest, I think that a vigorous democracy is the best bastion against tyranny. Plenty of tyrannies have had written constitutions that theoretically guarantee all kinds of rights, while violating them in practice.
Who would write it, and why? How would it be approved and endorsed?
How would we know it wouldn't stack the deck one way or another?
I suspect any constitution written now, today, as opposed to the eighteenth, nineteenth or early twentieth century would be biased towards favouring internationalism, banning hate speech, and promoting diversity and identity equality, whilst containing rather less on privacy, personal freedoms and protection against arbitrary powers of the state.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
You view, in hindsight, pride in the UK as the central rationale for Brexit and see its dissolution as just punishment for voting for it in the first place, and protection against it ever happening again.
Quite aside from being an utterly barking and fanatical belief, it's also delusional.
An independent England would be even more likely to plough its own furrow.
Brexit has shrivelled the Leaver homeland from the UK to Great Britain to England to provincial England. The boundaries continue to shrink.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
So don't tell me what my class is.
Yawn. Don't tell people that money isn't important then, when it clearly is. Don't tell people that a recession is worth it when real people's lives are on the line.
Your Grandfather's past situation is irrelevant. My grandfather grew up in a refugee camp because he was sent to Siberia by the Soviets when they invaded Poland. He then escaped and came to the UK as a refugee. I am comfortably middle class now.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Do you think these people are protesting about GDP figures?
Those people are a small minority, mainly confined to north London.
Look at the figures on how many people identity as European.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
The European Project is as idealistic and fanatical as that of the ultra-hard ERG'ers.
Its just, so far, the former have been more successful.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
By that reckoning young graduates in London should care only about housing and debt.
Young graduates in London do care about housing. Very much so.
I'm sure they do but by Robert's theory they should be supporting a very hard line on immigration while not being concerned about many other issues.
I don't see why everyone is saying that nothing has changed. We've just had the EU elections and there's a completely new EU parliament.
Since the EU is democratic institution then this would naturally lead to a completely new direction for the Brexit negotiations and the EU in general.
So it makes perfect sense to try and reopen negotiations.
Re-opening negotiations means an extension is needed. Even signing off May's deal requires quite a bit of legislative acivity in Westminster and Brussels.
So anyone promising re-opened negotiations really means an extension.
Given that a GE before September is a virtual impossibility, and that producing the required legislation is probably a six week task, then you are absolutely right, reopening negotiations means an extension.
So, what's Boris to do: he's promised both - reopened negotiations and to leave by October 31st?
Presumably he's betting on the EU telling him to "fuck off", and enabling the UK to leave by the end of October through being kicked out. In this scenario, he blames an problems on the EU. (Although history suggests the party in power will get the blame, irrespective of where ultimate responsibility lies.)
The risk with this is that the EU hands him an extension to 2022.
What does he do then?
From the EUs point of view easily their most sensible move would be to grant an extension without limit. They should have done so first time.
On the Boris point - it is very unlikely that anyone can keep their promises on Brexit. No-one has yet. Not least this is because it requires alignment of parliament, government, EU and the people' vote in 2016. Boris has to keep it simple as - Rory is currently finding out - complicated several stage arguments are great but don't win elections with the public, MPs or Tory members.
The EU won't chuck us out on 31st October. No-one wants their hands in the gore at that moment. Personally I think that includes Boris. But negotiation requires non disclosure of the full hand. Something we have not quite got to grips with yet.
Suppose the EU was like the Roman Empire in 300 AD and I lived in Britain. I expect I'd be a Roman patriot, and see no reason to change things. I'd see it as working well.
But now, I'm being asked to give up an independence which I cherish, for reasons which seem trivial to me - a couple of extra points on GDP.
Who says staying means any extra points on GDP? The same halfwits who failed to predict the financial crisis?
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
If you want to retain the status quo and mistrust change without a demonstrable benefit, the Lib Dems are the party for you nowadays. Regardless of whether you like them or think they are competent. That message supported the Conservatives successfully for more than one hundred years. They have left it behind now.
To @Sean_F - I notice you don’t answer my third question.
A vigorous democracy needs some sort of constitution or concept of basic inalienable rights, some idea of a rule of law to which even the rulers, however democratically elected they may be, are subject. Rules of the game, as it were.
Otherwise it is all too easy for a government to be democratically elected to do something morally outrageous. I am sure you can think of examples.
Constitutions and human rights, an idea which had its roots in English soil, even if best articulated by the US Founding Fathers, while not sufficient on their own are essential to the promotion and maintenance of a vigorous democracy.
Conservatives used to understand this. See, for instance, Hailsham on Elective Dictatorship. Modern-day Conservatives have forgotten this - or never understood it. Otherwise some of them would never have given a moment's thought to the idea of closing Parliament to push through a policy, an idea which would normally sit more happily with the Communists advising Corbyn.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
History suggests that when people have jobs and food and security, then other things become more important. For some, that is expressed through concerns about climate change, or rights for transexuals. For others, it is expressed through concern about a changing social environment caused by immigration, or about how the country is governed.
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
That's very easy to say if you are already wealthy.
I actually grew up in and live in one of the most deprived seats in the country.
And now you are wealthy?
I have under £1,000 in my bank account, so no.
So you are saying your family is poor and deprived?
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
My family are in a good place, thankfully. But we're not swimming in cash.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Exactly. A good place. I have met many people like you. You think you can talk for the working class because you grew up in a working class area but are actually comfortable, with property. You are middle class, and you have no idea what the vulnerable in society really care about.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
So don't tell me what my class is.
Yawn. Don't tell people that money isn't important then, when it clearly is. Don't tell people that a recession is worth it when real people's lives are on the line.
Your Grandfather's past situation is irrelevant. My grandfather grew up in a refugee camp because he was sent to Siberia by the Soviets when they invaded Poland. He then escaped and came to the UK as a refugee. I am comfortably middle class now.
You're middle class? I guessed.
How nice of you to be able to hector the working class, after questioning whether they even are working class, on what is and is not good for them. My vote is as equal to yours.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
So don't tell me what my class is.
- Ostentatiously working class. - Works in Spain. - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.
How nice of you to be able to hector the working class, after questioning whether they even are working class, on what is and is not good for them.
Get back to the early 1800s.
Yes. I'm middle class because my parents, both children of the victims of war and pogroms were the first in their families to go to university and were lucky enough to buy a property when property was affordable.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
So don't tell me what my class is.
- Ostentatiously working class. - Works in Spain. - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.
Are you Cilla Black's grandson?
No haha, but my Grandparents actually knew Cilla Black growing up.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
So don't tell me what my class is.
- Ostentatiously working class. - Works in Spain. - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.
C4: Boris Johnson will be represented by an empty podium in a television debate on Sunday night as his five remaining rivals to be Britain’s next prime minister fight it out for a place alongside him in the ballot of Conservative members.
According to the Guardian the Channel 4 debate is with a "live studio audience of potential Tory voters", potential for some foul play there.
Channel 4? They'd might as well ask RT to host it!
You're overlooking the fact that C4 are subject to the political balance requirements of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code
Boris should just stick with the Beeb and Sky
He should stay off the telly as much as possible so as to minimize the risk that the punters will notice that's snake oil he's selling.
I didn't just grow up in a working class area, I still live there. Currently living and working in Spain I am one month off being unable to afford my rent if I were to lose my job. The same applies to most of my friends back home also. When my father lost his job a few years back, we relied on family members to keep paying the mortgage. I had a Grandmother who grew up on Scotland Road who used to jump on the back of dog biscuit trucks and steal them in order to be able to eat.
So don't tell me what my class is.
- Ostentatiously working class. - Works in Spain. - Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.
The true conservative answer to Brexit would have been 10 years of transition to an EFTA like state.
This is the key point. The Tories rightly championed free trade and business. To bin off free trade and throw business into God knows what is beyond unConservative.
You confuse conservatism, after which the party is named, for economic liberalism, for which the party is not named.
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Spot on. Many of the self-described Conservatives on here seem to be confused Liberal Democrats who just like paying less tax.
So what should/do they stand for then?
Tradition, independence, and democratic accountability.
If restoring Independence overrides the importance of preserving the status quo, why would they support the union?
I would take the view that it was a massive mistake for the UK to join the European Union, for the very reason that you think it was a great idea - that we are part of a project that requires us to forge a new country called Europe.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
But the UK union is? Why?
People have affection and loyalty towards it.
Much of it is about occupying the same small island. Good reason for union of Britain, Union of Ireland and (sotto voce) reunion of both. Works OK for new Zealand.
Comments
That said if the Tories to win their leader Andrew Scheer is a big Brexit backer and would happily speed through a FTA with PM Boris (though Trudeau has said he would go a trade deal too)
That was the previous EU parliament's negotiations. It's not clear what will happen now.
Does anyone know if the EU's main negotiators Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk are still in power after the election?
If you look in the archives, you'll see a lot of PB posts about how the LDs would take decades to recover from the coalition (if it ever happened). Yet here we are in 2019, and the LDs just beat the Tories and Labour in a nationwide election.
The LDs could retreat to zero or end up in power. (And the same is true of the Brexit Party.)
The Conservatives will no longer win power by appealing to wealthy middle classes in the south east fretting about GDP figures effecting the purchase of their third rental property.
I guess what I am trying to say is, for many of us, there are things more important than GDP figures and money in general. And it is about time we had a voice in this country.
* Except for Zac Goldsmith. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
It lasted about two days and was basically “David Brent does Westminster”.
There's this weird belief among non-Conservatives that the Conservatives' job is to be the mouthpiece for big business and sod the rest.
Being the out of touch old git I am, I'll admit to having to look up what a flesh tunnel was too
So, what's Boris to do: he's promised both - reopened negotiations and to leave by October 31st?
Presumably he's betting on the EU telling him to "fuck off", and enabling the UK to leave by the end of October through being kicked out. In this scenario, he blames an problems on the EU. (Although history suggests the party in power will get the blame, irrespective of where ultimate responsibility lies.)
The risk with this is that the EU hands him an extension to 2022.
What does he do then?
Then we can have a party that truly does represent huge swathes of the country, as the referendum itself proved with the huge disconnect between what 52% of the public really thought vs the Conservative Party position on Europe.
And the same applies, when you examine the polling, to issues like the death penalty, ECHR, grammar schools, military cutbacks and foreign intervention.
Whether Trudeau can squeeze the Greens back by polling day could be crucial as to whether he is re elected or not
How do you reconcile a No Deal Brexit with your definition of Conservatism?
But when people do not have jobs and food and security, then all they care about is those things.
And your answers to my other two questions are?
And likewise when the trade balance stopped being reported on the news.
The motivation for wanting Brexit - the hankering for an imagined past and for past glories - is of course very conservative.
I just don't see how any Conservative could think that that was consistent with their principles.
My point is that unless you are vulnerable to a recession, with no safety net, you have no place talking about how money is not important.
As to the rest, I think that a vigorous democracy is the best bastion against tyranny. Plenty of tyrannies have had written constitutions that theoretically guarantee all kinds of rights, while violating them in practice.
My area voted 53% Leave. The working class deserve their voice to be heard, and not to be told by their multiple-home owning superiors in London that it'll knock GDP figures. GDP figures matter very little when you're just getting by.
Northern Ireland can afford a hard border even less than the Republic. If people in GB cared two hoots about Northern Ireland they would sign up to the backstop in an instant. But they don't and so they haven't.
Maybe the Conservative Party should rename itself the History Party. The name may soon become very appropriate.
Quite aside from being an utterly barking and fanatical belief, it's also delusional.
An independent England would be even more likely to plough its own furrow.
Better Together kept the Union going in 2014 through good old fashioned threats. That card has been played now.
Suppose the EU was like the Roman Empire in 300 AD and I lived in Britain. I expect I'd be a Roman patriot, and see no reason to change things. I'd see it as working well.
But now, I'm being asked to give up an independence which I cherish, for reasons which seem trivial to me - a couple of extra points on GDP.
So don't tell me what my class is.
Is that why you emigrated ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNlngb66zsI
How would we know it wouldn't stack the deck one way or another?
I suspect any constitution written now, today, as opposed to the eighteenth, nineteenth or early twentieth century would be biased towards favouring internationalism, banning hate speech, and promoting diversity and identity equality, whilst containing rather less on privacy, personal freedoms and protection against arbitrary powers of the state.
So, I prefer politics.
Your Grandfather's past situation is irrelevant. My grandfather grew up in a refugee camp because he was sent to Siberia by the Soviets when they invaded Poland. He then escaped and came to the UK as a refugee. I am comfortably middle class now.
https://twitter.com/KellyTolhurst/status/1139611823551012867
Look at the figures on how many people identity as European.
Its just, so far, the former have been more successful.
On the Boris point - it is very unlikely that anyone can keep their promises on Brexit. No-one has yet. Not least this is because it requires alignment of parliament, government, EU and the people' vote in 2016. Boris has to keep it simple as - Rory is currently finding out - complicated several stage arguments are great but don't win elections with the public, MPs or Tory members.
The EU won't chuck us out on 31st October. No-one wants their hands in the gore at that moment. Personally I think that includes Boris. But negotiation requires non disclosure of the full hand. Something we have not quite got to grips with yet.
Because, Leadsom.
A vigorous democracy needs some sort of constitution or concept of basic inalienable rights, some idea of a rule of law to which even the rulers, however democratically elected they may be, are subject. Rules of the game, as it were.
Otherwise it is all too easy for a government to be democratically elected to do something morally outrageous. I am sure you can think of examples.
Constitutions and human rights, an idea which had its roots in English soil, even if best articulated by the US Founding Fathers, while not sufficient on their own are essential to the promotion and maintenance of a vigorous democracy.
Conservatives used to understand this. See, for instance, Hailsham on Elective Dictatorship. Modern-day Conservatives have forgotten this - or never understood it. Otherwise some of them would never have given a moment's thought to the idea of closing Parliament to push through a policy, an idea which would normally sit more happily with the Communists advising Corbyn.
How nice of you to be able to hector the working class, after questioning whether they even are working class, on what is and is not good for them. My vote is as equal to yours.
Get back to the early 1800s.
- Works in Spain.
- Grandmother who grew up on the Scottie Road.
Are you Cilla Black's grandson?
Get a grip.
And do we know which PBers made money from it ?