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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    glw said:


    They (because it applies to most of them) are simply deluded if they think the EU is about to make some substantial concession, that Parliament will rally behind a minority govnerment trying to push Hard Brexit through, and that No Deal* is even an option.

    It's genuinely disturbing to see people who could be PM in a few weeks time talking such utter bollocks about Brexit, and other things to.

    What ARE the options in that case?

    (I don't think most of them are deluded. They are in denial, which is different)
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337

    AndyJS said:

    Guido: IDS backs Boris.

    Bone head backs bird brain shock!

    I am surprised at IDS, maybe he has one eye on who will help him keep his seat as it is within the win zone for Labour.
    That’s the same IDS who had tea with Trump and Owen Paterson last week, days before Owen Paterson also came out for Bozza? No further questions, your honour.

    Smells a bit like Boris is being lined up as the useful and malleable one who has the balls and charisma to carry off what their chums want. Gove’s too clever (by half, some might say), and most of the others don’t have the chutzpah to convince a population of 66 million voters that a tax cut for 4 million of them is “for the middle classes”, and all the other nonsense which makes sense on the side of a bus.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    There will be no change of narrative.

    It is, and will remain, ‘anyone rather than the orange tw@t’.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    IanB2 said:

    Theresa May already doesn’t seem quite so bad.

    Ahem... I got a lot of stick for predicting that just a few days ago...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited June 2019
    The Dems need to decide if ideological purity is more important than replacing Trump with a Democrat.

    In blunt policy terms, can they afford to lose narrowly again, and have Trump replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg with a 45 year old anti-abortionist?

    IMO the best chance they have against Trump is to go with Biden, who will most likely stand down after a single term anyway.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    By the time Bozo is finished we’ll be discussing the wonder years of May .

    I have no time for May but when the chips were down she at least thought about the national interest and realized no deal would be a disaster for the country .



  • AndyJS said:
    I did wonder why Graham Brady was keeping so quiet.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    kle4 said:

    The comments in this thread about Leadsom are ridiculous. She's not remotely loathsome or witchy - she doesn't have a Thatcheresque demeanour, not that it would be reprehensible of she did. I can only conclude that she's the one people are scared will actually succeed in securing Brexit and a thriving UK.

    Just because people dislike soemone does not mean they are scared of them.

    That said, I don't recall why people think she is especially loathsome.
    Is it a sort of pun on her name - Leadsom?
    I meant besides that reason. I assume there has to be more of a reason than just the pseudo-pun.
    Give her her due, she was very prescient about Brexit back in 2013, stating that: "it would be a disaster for our economy and it would lead to a decade of economic and political uncertainty".

    Shame she didn't pay attention to herself.
    Gosh, changing her mind, what a truly foul individual.
    Why is someone who allegedly changed their mind before 2016 sound on Europe, but someone who changed their mind after 2016 is a traitorous Remoaner?
    I wouldn't call anyone traitorous, I prefer the word treacherous.

    Regarding people who've gone Remain since the referendum, I wouldn't call them treacherous, I'd call them credulous, skittish and easily demoralised. Not much else you can call people repenting something that hasn't even happened.
    "hasn't even happened."

    Your case three years ago was that you could bring about a good brexit. It transpires that you are too fecking useless to bring about any sort of brexit at all either now or in the foreseeable, and you are presenting that as a point in your favour. I salute your indefatigability.
    Who is this 'you' of whom you speak? My case as a voter was that leaving the EU was a good idea. It is still my view that leaving the EU is a good idea, and I have seen nothing to remotely dissuade me.
    In fact it may still be a very good idea, but what if it cannot be implemented?

    If you read the Communist Manifesto, you may well come to the conclusion Communism is quite a good idea. Practical results to date have however been a little disappointing.
    The Communist Manifesto didn't suggest it would get everything wrapped up in two years with a specific date in the calendar ear-marked.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    My ranking:

    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Leadsom .. getting desperate now..,
    Hancock
    Harper

    Immediate resignation from the party probably applies from here on, although I might wait to see if Johnson betrays the right supporters first

    Johnson
    Raab
    Mcvey

    I've missed out Rory Stewart because I think he'd be a superb leader of another party, yet to be formed. Hancock is a good guy but not for the current mess.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Latest numbers with 70% declared:

    Johnson 65, Hunt 36, Gove 35, Raab 24, Javid 19,
    Hancock 16, Harper 7, McVey 6, Stewart 6, Leadsom 5.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Boris Johnson telling people in a Sikh temple that we need a free trade deal with India so they can import scotch duty free...

    https://twitter.com/jamesmelville/status/1138176573121716224
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 320
    Personal ranking (sometime member of the Conservative Party, sometime Conservative candidate in council election)

    Plausible PM material
    STEWART

    Deranged, chancer, or fraud

    Gove, Johnson, Hunt, Raab

    deluded

    Sajid Hancock Leadsom

    Who?

    McVey, and the other bloke

    But that's just my opinion





  • Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    brendan16 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    Good job you didn't tell them that. You'd still be there.
    Have people tried flying via Dublin or Shannon and using US pre clearance to avoid the queues stateside?
    Not myself, but have heard nothing but good reports from friends and colleagues who have used it for business trips and family holidays.

    The BA flight London City > Shannon > JFK is particularly notable, but only if someone else is paying.

    At some point the US is going to realise they’re losing a lot of visitors because of the whole airport ‘experience’.
    I have decided not to visit the USA under this president. My money, my choice.
    Gove is thinking along the same lines now.
    Lines of what? (Innocent face)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    edited June 2019

    My ranking:

    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Leadsom .. getting desperate now..,
    Hancock
    Harper

    Immediate resignation from the party probably applies from here on, although I might wait to see if Johnson betrays the right supporters first

    Johnson
    Raab
    Mcvey

    I've missed out Rory Stewart because I think he'd be a superb leader of another party, yet to be formed. Hancock is a good guy but not for the current mess.

    You are very generous to Harper there. Gave the impression on Newsnight that he would be a decent backbench MP you could rely on not to embarrass the Party, by not saying or doing anything egregiously stupid, but not put in charge of much more than the photocopier.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    dixiedean said:

    My ranking:

    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Leadsom .. getting desperate now..,
    Hancock
    Harper

    Immediate resignation from the party probably applies from here on, although I might wait to see if Johnson betrays the right supporters first

    Johnson
    Raab
    Mcvey

    I've missed out Rory Stewart because I think he'd be a superb leader of another party, yet to be formed. Hancock is a good guy but not for the current mess.

    You are very generous to Harper there. Gave the impression on Newsnight that he would be a decent backbench MP you could rely on not to embarrass the Party, but not put in charge of much more than the photocopier.
    Well, yes, but look at the three I've put lower down. At least he's not actively trying to crash us out in chaos in a few weeks' time.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    Flying on BA? T7 is pretty much the worst of the terminals for arrivals. If it’s any consolation, it usually takes so long for them to get the luggage unloaded that it’s barely any faster for US passport holders with checked bags.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    In reverse order of suitability for the job:

    Pretty much. Anyone who thinks Boris should be running the country wants locking up if you ask me.
    The recent Time Magaine cover was cutting precisely because it was true. We have become an international laughing stock. Boris however can, I am sure, take us beyond ridicule.
    Its only a laughing stock to arrogant and small-minded individuals who think that Brexit is moronic and can't look past their nose. Other countries have had to face far greater sacrifices to ensure their country was independent than any trials or tribulations Britain will face.
    Strangely I don't remember hearing that from the Leave camp during the referendum campaign.

    Or seeing the slogan "Trials and Tribulations" on the side of a bus.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited June 2019
    I remember the game Stop Boris as a kid where you had to shoot a battery powered spider between the eyes to stop him crawling along the floor. Someone really needs to re-release that game for amusement value right now.

    As for who will really stop him? Its Raab or Hunt, the former if Johnson's gaffes or history catch up with him, the latter if it doesn't.

  • GazGaz Posts: 45
    franklyn said:

    Personal ranking (sometime member of the Conservative Party, sometime Conservative candidate in council election)

    Plausible PM material
    STEWART

    Deranged, chancer, or fraud

    Gove, Johnson, Hunt, Raab

    deluded

    Sajid Hancock Leadsom

    Who?

    McVey, and the other bloke

    But that's just my opinion





    As a Deputy Council leader who’s authority is a big chunk of Rory’s constituency, I agree about Rory, but not sure that feeling is currently shared by his colleagues or the wider membership. I like his attempts to strip away the hyperbole and keep to calm facts and genuinely listening to the point of view of others.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    My ranking:

    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Leadsom .. getting desperate now..,
    Hancock
    Harper

    Immediate resignation from the party probably applies from here on, although I might wait to see if Johnson betrays the right supporters first

    Johnson
    Raab
    Mcvey

    I've missed out Rory Stewart because I think he'd be a superb leader of another party, yet to be formed. Hancock is a good guy but not for the current mess.

    You are very generous to Harper there. Gave the impression on Newsnight that he would be a decent backbench MP you could rely on not to embarrass the Party, but not put in charge of much more than the photocopier.
    Well, yes, but look at the three I've put lower down. At least he's not actively trying to crash us out in chaos in a few weeks' time.
    Well indeed. Fair enough!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    If Boris gets the same percentage support from the remaining MPs, he'd get 95 votes in the first ballot. (Assumes everyone votes in line with their public endorsement).
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2019
    If you don't like Boris the move is to endorse him. People will will assume he has the votes in the bag for the first round and use their vote to help some other favoured candidate against a candidate they don't like. If everyone does that he gets knocked out in the first round.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    If you don't like Boris the move is to endorse him, people will will assume he has the votes in the bag for the first round and use their vote to help some other favoured candidate against a candidate they don't like. If everyone does that he gets knocked out in the first round.

    The more MPs publicly endorse a candidate, the easier it will be to tell if anyone's been telling porkies when the votes are counted. That's why I'm interested in seeing just how many of them back a candidate before Thursday.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited June 2019
    I've had a look at remaining potential support and also aggregated Guido + Wiki

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-KczH9LmgjPjvosBcads2AqlcTEZNg0i2MadKTK2j8A/edit?usp=sharing

    35 GOVE
    16 HANCOCK
    7 HARPER
    36 HUNT
    19 JAVID
    69 JOHNSON
    5 LEADSOM
    6 McVEY
    24 RAAB
    6 STEWART

    I think 2 of Leadsom's additional backers are Chris Davies and Glyn Davies (Who has also indicated he won't stay with her)

    Mcvey's extras possibly Rowley, Redwood, Hollobone, Spencer

    Stewart - Benyon/Newton perhaps.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    If you don't like Boris the move is to endorse him. People will will assume he has the votes in the bag for the first round and use their vote to help some other favoured candidate against a candidate they don't like. If everyone does that he gets knocked out in the first round.

    I suspect Boris will end up with rather fewer votes than endorsements.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    glw said:

    nico67 said:

    All this fuss over which Captain will be at the helm as the SS Brexit hits the iceberg .

    The Tories psychodrama over Europe is now becoming extremely tiresome . They really need to be removed as they’re a clear and present danger to the UK .

    There is one massive difference.

    Some of them believe we have absolutely no need of lifeboats.
    Some of them think we shouldn't even try to avoid the iceberg, but instead sail at full speed towards it, without raising any alarm.
    "Ejaculate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    Boris Johnson telling people in a Sikh temple that we need a free trade deal with India so they can import scotch duty free...

    https://twitter.com/jamesmelville/status/1138176573121716224

    Sikhs don't really stick to the whole no drinking thing. The ones I know anyway. It's completely forbidden in the Gurdwaras though - Boris was guilty of crossing a taboo there !
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The person behind that tweet has made a slight fool of themselves by assuming that Sikhs are like Muslims in terms of being non-drinkers of alcohol.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    I've had a look at remaining potential support and also aggregated Guido + Wiki

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-KczH9LmgjPjvosBcads2AqlcTEZNg0i2MadKTK2j8A/edit?usp=sharing

    35 GOVE
    16 HANCOCK
    7 HARPER
    36 HUNT
    19 JAVID
    69 JOHNSON
    5 LEADSOM
    6 McVEY
    24 RAAB
    6 STEWART

    I think 2 of Leadsom's additional backers are Chris Davies and Glyn Davies (Who has also indicated he won't stay with her)

    Mcvey's extras possibly Rowley, Redwood, Hollobone, Spencer

    Stewart - Benyon/Newton perhaps.

    Interesting figures, thanks. It's not impossible that Boris could get 100 votes on Thursday IMO.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've had a look at remaining potential support and also aggregated Guido + Wiki

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-KczH9LmgjPjvosBcads2AqlcTEZNg0i2MadKTK2j8A/edit?usp=sharing

    35 GOVE
    16 HANCOCK
    7 HARPER
    36 HUNT
    19 JAVID
    69 JOHNSON
    5 LEADSOM
    6 McVEY
    24 RAAB
    6 STEWART

    I think 2 of Leadsom's additional backers are Chris Davies and Glyn Davies (Who has also indicated he won't stay with her)

    Mcvey's extras possibly Rowley, Redwood, Hollobone, Spencer

    Stewart - Benyon/Newton perhaps.

    Interesting figures, thanks. It's not impossible that Boris could get 100 votes on Thursday IMO.
    I think there are some very natural support arcs btw

    On the leavery side:
    Leadsom -> Boris
    Mcvey -> Boris
    Mcvey -> Raab -> Boris
    Raab -> Boris

    Remain side:
    Stewart -> Hunt
    Javid -> Hunt
    Javid -> Gove
    Stewart -> Gove
    Stewart -> Hancock -> Hunt
    Hancock -> Hunt

    Are some potential ones. I have no idea where Haper's support might go - I also think Boris could pick up some more remain transfers potentially.

  • Viceroy_of_OrangeViceroy_of_Orange Posts: 172
    edited June 2019
    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    What about the Iron Saj, Mark Harper or Hancock :D ?
  • Pulpstar said:

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    What about the Iron Saj, Mark Harper or Hancock :D ?
    I didn't join the Liberal Democrats.

    Also, Happy (late) 98th Birthday to Prince Philip.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    "Ejaculate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

    I think your recording of "Star Wars: A New Hope" is slightly different to mine...

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    viewcode said:

    "Ejaculate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

    I think your recording of "Star Wars: A New Hope" is slightly different to mine...

    I hated it when they released an updated version of A New Hope with new graphics. The original 1977 version was just fine as it was.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    Its only a laughing stock to arrogant and small-minded individuals who think that Brexit is moronic and can't look past their nose. Other countries have had to face far greater sacrifices to ensure their country was independent than any trials or tribulations Britain will face.

    We are entombed, but we live on. This is only the beginning. We will prepare. We will grow stronger. When the time is right, we will emerge and take our rightful place as the supreme power of the universe...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    Wouldn't you say Raab is more likely to do what you want compared to Boris?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    Welcome, Viceroy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    The irony is that Stewart is the person most likely to take the UK out the EU on our before the deadline, and Johnson the least likely.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    Why are so many Remainers supporting Johnson ?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708


    Why are so many Remainers supporting Johnson ?

    It makes sense. If one candidate promises No Deal and the other doesn't, the one who does will win. But if the winner then proceeds to keep their promise, they will destroy the party, the economy or both. The solution is to support an audacious liar.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    viewcode said:

    "Ejaculate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

    I think your recording of "Star Wars: A New Hope" is slightly different to mine...

    I hated it when they released an updated version of A New Hope with new graphics. The original 1977 version was just fine as it was.
    Oooh, now there's a debate. If memory serves (and it might be a bit garbled), due to previous releases being sold out and the original version not being deposited, the original 1977 version effectively disappeared. Some fans had to go thru all the various footages and reconstruct it. Here's the details:

    * Jeremy Jahns: Star Wars Despecialized Edition is Awesometacular!
    * Harmy: Introducing the Despecialized Edition and Its Sources
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Looking at all the leadership claims etc...have any come up with a sensible way forward for Northern Ireland (always a tricky one)? It seems that chit chat about drugs and taxes are simply a diversion from the large elephant (orange or green depending on your view) that is sitting in the room. The clock is ticking, Rome is burning and yet we are sitting through a bizarre Tory beauty contest.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Looking at all the leadership claims etc...have any come up with a sensible way forward for Northern Ireland (always a tricky one)? It seems that chit chat about drugs and taxes are simply a diversion from the large elephant (orange or green depending on your view) that is sitting in the room. The clock is ticking, Rome is burning and yet we are sitting through a bizarre Tory beauty contest.

    This is true, OTOH the core skill needed to get through the crisis is the ability to bamboozle Conservative Party members.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Looking at all the leadership claims etc...have any come up with a sensible way forward for Northern Ireland (always a tricky one)? It seems that chit chat about drugs and taxes are simply a diversion from the large elephant (orange or green depending on your view) that is sitting in the room. The clock is ticking, Rome is burning and yet we are sitting through a bizarre Tory beauty contest.

    The idea now is to hoodwink the Tory party members by saying whatever is necessary. Thereafter, the backsliding can start.

    Johnson is the finest snake oil salesman. Ironically, the one who is totally honest and means what she says is McVey. Of course, she is completely barmy.
  • Viceroy_of_OrangeViceroy_of_Orange Posts: 172
    edited June 2019
    Boris Johnson has been more categorical than Dominic Raab so far, and is the frontrunner. If Boris does backslide, it really will be the end of the Tory Party. They're currently polling 20% - if the great Eurosceptic hope Boris turns out to be a liar, they'll sink faster than the Titanic and so will his premiership. It would only take a handful of the ERG to go on 'strike' and the government wouldn't be able to pass any legislation. Then they would face Farage and a Brexit Party on steroids. Much of my family and social circle voted Tory in 2017 - continued support is now hanging by a thread.

    As for Rory Stewart being able to take us out, erm what? The man sits on BBC Question Time telling us "love" is the answer to this impasse. His speeches sound like extracts lifted from a Miss World speech, that's why he appeals to Remainer Liberal Democrats on the Twittersphere. This surrender treaty will not get through Parliament, how many times must it be demonstrated?

    It is this Deal or No Deal. And the Tories have to deliver by October.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    Would Boris prefer to get 100 or 75 votes in the first round? He might prefer 75 counterintuitively. With 100 his supporters might get complacent, or start to think they could support other candidates for a round or two.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited June 2019

    This surrender treaty will not get through Parliament

    You must be a troll.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    This surrender treaty will not get through Parliament

    You must be a troll.
    Why ?
    However deluded, that sounds like the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party, recent import or not.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    "Take back control" of the Conservative Party for what purpose?

    Electoral oblivion ? ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    "Take back control" of the Conservative Party for what purpose?

    Electoral oblivion ? ;)
    ‘Take control’ would surely be more accurate than ‘take back control’, too.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rpjs said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    Flying on BA? T7 is pretty much the worst of the terminals for arrivals. If it’s any consolation, it usually takes so long for them to get the luggage unloaded that it’s barely any faster for US passport holders with checked bags.
    Things have got considerably worse at Dulles in recent months. A two-hour wait for US passport holders is now not uncommon. This follows a period were every US citizen used a passport reading machine, in the same manner as global entry. But all those machines have been pulled. Who knows what's going on and why it has become so much worse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited June 2019
    MTimT said:

    rpjs said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    Flying on BA? T7 is pretty much the worst of the terminals for arrivals. If it’s any consolation, it usually takes so long for them to get the luggage unloaded that it’s barely any faster for US passport holders with checked bags.
    Things have got considerably worse at Dulles in recent months. A two-hour wait for US passport holders is now not uncommon. This follows a period were every US citizen used a passport reading machine, in the same manner as global entry. But all those machines have been pulled. Who knows what's going on and why it has become so much worse.
    Trump’s determination to go back to the steam age ?


    “I don’t want Albert Einstein reading my passport...”
    https://www.ccn.com/donald-trumps-wacky-solution-boeing-737-max-8-crash-get-rid-of-computers
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Nigelb said:

    However deluded, that sounds like the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party, recent import or not.

    How can a Kipper who recently joined be " the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party"?

    The inauthentic voice, perhaps.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Scott_P said:

    Nigelb said:

    However deluded, that sounds like the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party, recent import or not.

    How can a Kipper who recently joined be " the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party"?

    The inauthentic voice, perhaps.
    If it were only UKIP/Faragist entryism, that might be true.
    To claim those types of views haven’t been significant (albeit not dominant) in the party for many years is ridiculous.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Nigelb said:

    To claim those types of views haven’t been significant (albeit not dominant) in the party for many years is ridiculous.

    To claim the view that crashing out with no deal was significant in the party for many years is ridiculous.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited June 2019

    Boris Johnson has been more categorical than Dominic Raab so far, and is the frontrunner. If Boris does backslide, it really will be the end of the Tory Party. They're currently polling 20% - if the great Eurosceptic hope Boris turns out to be a liar, they'll sink faster than the Titanic and so will his premiership. It would only take a handful of the ERG to go on 'strike' and the government wouldn't be able to pass any legislation. Then they would face Farage and a Brexit Party on steroids. Much of my family and social circle voted Tory in 2017 - continued support is now hanging by a thread.

    As for Rory Stewart being able to take us out, erm what? The man sits on BBC Question Time telling us "love" is the answer to this impasse. His speeches sound like extracts lifted from a Miss World speech, that's why he appeals to Remainer Liberal Democrats on the Twittersphere. This surrender treaty will not get through Parliament, how many times must it be demonstrated?

    It is this Deal or No Deal. And the Tories have to deliver by October.

    Any new leader will have to successfully negotiate with the DUP and keep all Tory MPs on board.

    He /she then needs to get things agreed by Parliament by October and any election before then will destroy the party - put simply nothing is going to work the way the candidates hope
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    I note the "Quiet Man" has come out for the "Silent and "Invisible Man"

    Oh Man !!!!!!!

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Good morning, everyone.

    I wonder if anyone will drop out ahead of/immediately after* the first round.

    *Beyond the one who gets officially eliminated, of course.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Good morning, everyone.

    I wonder if anyone will drop out ahead of/immediately after* the first round.

    *Beyond the one who gets officially eliminated, of course.

    And those that fail to meet the next threshold.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:

    Nigelb said:

    However deluded, that sounds like the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party, recent import or not.

    How can a Kipper who recently joined be " the authentic voice of a significant section of the Tory party"?

    The inauthentic voice, perhaps.
    If it were only UKIP/Faragist entryism, that might be true.
    To claim those types of views haven’t been significant (albeit not dominant) in the party for many years is ridiculous.
    Oh, they've been significant. But they're just part of the party. I get the impression that some ERG-leaning fellows almost want a cleansing of the party, a process that will lead to purity.

    Purity with a side-effect of electoral oblivion.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Purity with a side-effect of electoral oblivion.

    It's curious that BoZo is positioned as the candidate that can help MPs keep their seats, by offering the least electorally palatable proposal
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
    Boris clearly keen to have a woman with him in the final two ....

    But that's another tabloid story on the editors desk ....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    None of the ten is suitable for the job but if I had to list them in order of merit, starting with the least disastrous and working my way down I'd go...:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Stewart
    Hancock
    Leadsome
    Harper
    Javid
    Raab
    McVey
    Johnson

    A PB poll on this would be fun.

    I'd switch Javid and Leadsom. Otherwise, I agree.
  • Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
    Still not convinced re Leadsom but I can see a way through for her if BoJo's campaign goes off the rails and leavers are left in a situation with Hunt in the lead and a choice between her, Raab and McVey for the Leaver vote.
  • Scott_P said:
    I had heard something like that which made me wary of betting on Raab. Obviously can't say what.
  • Scott_P said:
    The other question is, if it does snowball and force him to go, where does his support go?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    On Stewart, much of him just radiates a traditional pragmatic Conservative. He has, for example, railed against rhetoric on ‘equality’ and ‘sustainability’ where these are just buzz words thrown around by MPs with no reflection on what they might mean in terms of achievable policy. He’s also talked practically about foreign policy, and Brexit.

    But what lets him down is going so vociferously against the “horror” of tax cuts and his rhetoric that “love” is part of the answer. Quite aside from sounding a little bit too Jesus/John Lennon for many people’s liking he risks giving the impression he’s running against his own party.

    He needs to be much more careful, define his own Conservativism and put his own stamp on it if he’s going to lead the party.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    The mistake was flying to JFK in the first place.

    Newark passport control is always much quicker. Just as easy for NYC.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    As a Ukipper turned Tory member since 2016 (I knew I had to join as the next mission was to take back control of the Conservative Party), I will be using my vote for whoever pledges to pull us out as soon as possible. And at the moment of the frontrunners, Boris is the man. Last chance saloon for the Tories now.

    Favoured: Boris, Raab, McVey, Leadsom.

    Never: Stewart, Gove, Hunt.

    I think there are some holdouts in the Conservative Party who think competence, common sense and, um, conservatism are a thing and haven't gone full UKIP fruitcake. You are no doubt seeing to that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
    Still not convinced re Leadsom but I can see a way through for her if BoJo's campaign goes off the rails and leavers are left in a situation with Hunt in the lead and a choice between her, Raab and McVey for the Leaver vote.
    Yes, Gove should have been in pole position to mop that up, but isn’t anymore.

    I think McVey just comes across as too fierce and aggressive to get through too.

    I don’t think Raab is going anywhere.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    There were two women in the final two last time.

    It’s telling, though. If she’s playing that card now then she’s running short on ammunition for her USP.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    The mistake was flying to JFK in the first place.

    Newark passport control is always much quicker. Just as easy for NYC.
    Isn’t it going to the USA in general?

    They seem to view being rude and curt to non-US citizens as a sign of professionalism.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    The mistake was flying to JFK in the first place.

    Newark passport control is always much quicker. Just as easy for NYC.
    Annoyingly when I'm going later this year JFK was the only sane choice I had - mind you it's my first visit in years - I avoid the USA like the plague...
  • Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
    Still not convinced re Leadsom but I can see a way through for her if BoJo's campaign goes off the rails and leavers are left in a situation with Hunt in the lead and a choice between her, Raab and McVey for the Leaver vote.
    Yes, Gove should have been in pole position to mop that up, but isn’t anymore.

    I think McVey just comes across as too fierce and aggressive to get through too.

    I don’t think Raab is going anywhere.
    I agree you on Raab. If his personality was better, he would be in a real chance.

    I get the point on McVey. But I think many Conservative MPs also realise they are in the last chance saloon and that JC could easily get in on the back of the Brexit Party eating into their vote and letting Labour in on a reduced share of the vote a la Peterborough. I don't see how Leadsom would win those people back but I can see how McVey would.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    On Stewart, much of him just radiates a traditional pragmatic Conservative. He has, for example, railed against rhetoric on ‘equality’ and ‘sustainability’ where these are just buzz words thrown around by MPs with no reflection on what they might mean in terms of achievable policy. He’s also talked practically about foreign policy, and Brexit.

    But what lets him down is going so vociferously against the “horror” of tax cuts and his rhetoric that “love” is part of the answer. Quite aside from sounding a little bit too Jesus/John Lennon for many people’s liking he risks giving the impression he’s running against his own party.

    He needs to be much more careful, define his own Conservativism and put his own stamp on it if he’s going to lead the party.

    Stewart appears to be in the wrong party.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    The mistake was flying to JFK in the first place.

    Newark passport control is always much quicker. Just as easy for NYC.
    Isn’t it going to the USA in general?

    They seem to view being rude and curt to non-US citizens as a sign of professionalism.
    Some US airports are way worse than others. Chicago O'Hare and JFK are two that I always avoid.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Royale, ha. That sounds about right.

    If a situation is mostly a problem for women, it gets gendered a lot (domestic abuse, for example), if it's mostly a male problem (homelessness, suicide) it's less likely to get a gendered report/response. It's also disturbing that the hundreds of male victims in Rotherham barely ever get acknowledged.

    My favourite "Think of the women" line was with apocalyptic climate change warnings. "World about to end - women most affected!"

    Anyway, back on topic: I agree with you. If Leadsom's line is "We need someone with ovaries. I have ovaries" it's not a good look.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Jonathan said:

    On Stewart, much of him just radiates a traditional pragmatic Conservative. He has, for example, railed against rhetoric on ‘equality’ and ‘sustainability’ where these are just buzz words thrown around by MPs with no reflection on what they might mean in terms of achievable policy. He’s also talked practically about foreign policy, and Brexit.

    But what lets him down is going so vociferously against the “horror” of tax cuts and his rhetoric that “love” is part of the answer. Quite aside from sounding a little bit too Jesus/John Lennon for many people’s liking he risks giving the impression he’s running against his own party.

    He needs to be much more careful, define his own Conservativism and put his own stamp on it if he’s going to lead the party.

    Stewart appears to be in the wrong party.
    Easy strap line. Did you even read my post?

    Like I said, I don’t think he is, but he’s enjoying being the outsider far too much without realising he has to lead the inside.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    None of the ten is suitable for the job but if I had to list them in order of merit, starting with the least disastrous and working my way down I'd go...:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Stewart
    Hancock
    Leadsome
    Harper
    Javid
    Raab
    McVey
    Johnson

    A PB poll on this would be fun.

    I'd switch Javid and Leadsom. Otherwise, I agree.
    Switch Gove and Hunt as well, and I could live with that list.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Scott_P said:

    Purity with a side-effect of electoral oblivion.

    It's curious that BoZo is positioned as the candidate that can help MPs keep their seats, by offering the least electorally palatable proposal

    The desperation of being in a deep hole of one’s own creation. Cf. HY’s recent posts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Given the Raab bullying case was settled by means of an NDA, is there any justification at all for his surrogate Maria Miller to claim, as she did on R4 this morning, that the original claim against him was ‘vexatious’ ?
    And might this indicate a potential breach of the NDA on Raab’s part ?

    Miller’s claim appears to be potentially libellous.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    None of the ten is suitable for the job but if I had to list them in order of merit, starting with the least disastrous and working my way down I'd go...:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Stewart
    Hancock
    Leadsome
    Harper
    Javid
    Raab
    McVey
    Johnson

    A PB poll on this would be fun.

    I'd switch Javid and Leadsom. Otherwise, I agree.
    The more important switch is Gove with the blank space at the bottom.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
    Still not convinced re Leadsom but I can see a way through for her if BoJo's campaign goes off the rails and leavers are left in a situation with Hunt in the lead and a choice between her, Raab and McVey for the Leaver vote.
    Yes, Gove should have been in pole position to mop that up, but isn’t anymore.

    I think McVey just comes across as too fierce and aggressive to get through too.

    I don’t think Raab is going anywhere.
    Raab is the purest Leaver of the top tier and I suspect McVey will endorse Raab when she is eliminated, maybe Javid too.

    I think both Raab and Hancock will do better than expected and Hancock might pick up votes from Stewart and Gyimah
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    Boris Johnson has been more categorical than Dominic Raab so far, and is the frontrunner. If Boris does backslide, it really will be the end of the Tory Party. They're currently polling 20% - if the great Eurosceptic hope Boris turns out to be a liar, they'll sink faster than the Titanic and so will his premiership. It would only take a handful of the ERG to go on 'strike' and the government wouldn't be able to pass any legislation. Then they would face Farage and a Brexit Party on steroids. Much of my family and social circle voted Tory in 2017 - continued support is now hanging by a thread.

    As for Rory Stewart being able to take us out, erm what? The man sits on BBC Question Time telling us "love" is the answer to this impasse. His speeches sound like extracts lifted from a Miss World speech, that's why he appeals to Remainer Liberal Democrats on the Twittersphere. This surrender treaty will not get through Parliament, how many times must it be demonstrated?

    It is this Deal or No Deal. And the Tories have to deliver by October.

    The irony is that the more maniacal a Leaver the Tories choose, the less likely that we actually leave at all.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that passport control at JFK airport is the absolute pits. Awful. A form of purgatory. Over 2 hours to get through.

    US customer service - pah!!!!

    The mistake was flying to JFK in the first place.

    Newark passport control is always much quicker. Just as easy for NYC.
    Isn’t it going to the USA in general?

    They seem to view being rude and curt to non-US citizens as a sign of professionalism.
    It's 3-4 years since we went to the USA, but I don't recall either Honolulu or San Francisco as being worse than anywhere else. Maybe, as a European, sneaking round the back helps!
    Hawaiian Airlines website was dire, though.

    And, unless one's over 70, Bangkok can be tedious.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019

    On Stewart, much of him just radiates a traditional pragmatic Conservative. He has, for example, railed against rhetoric on ‘equality’ and ‘sustainability’ where these are just buzz words thrown around by MPs with no reflection on what they might mean in terms of achievable policy. He’s also talked practically about foreign policy, and Brexit.

    But what lets him down is going so vociferously against the “horror” of tax cuts and his rhetoric that “love” is part of the answer. Quite aside from sounding a little bit too Jesus/John Lennon for many people’s liking he risks giving the impression he’s running against his own party.

    He needs to be much more careful, define his own Conservativism and put his own stamp on it if he’s going to lead the party.

    Rory Stewart is the Liz Kendall of this race, his problem is most of his most prominent supporters are from the opposition parties
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Team Leadsom are playing the woman card. "We must have a woman in the final two."

    Perhaps the mystery backer is a woman not a man...

    Ether McVey is probably a woman...
    Still not convinced re Leadsom but I can see a way through for her if BoJo's campaign goes off the rails and leavers are left in a situation with Hunt in the lead and a choice between her, Raab and McVey for the Leaver vote.
    Leadsom I think goes out first on Thursday unfortunately, she has only 2 backers compared to over 60 in 2016. She probably then backs Boris
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    On Stewart, much of him just radiates a traditional pragmatic Conservative. He has, for example, railed against rhetoric on ‘equality’ and ‘sustainability’ where these are just buzz words thrown around by MPs with no reflection on what they might mean in terms of achievable policy. He’s also talked practically about foreign policy, and Brexit.

    But what lets him down is going so vociferously against the “horror” of tax cuts and his rhetoric that “love” is part of the answer. Quite aside from sounding a little bit too Jesus/John Lennon for many people’s liking he risks giving the impression he’s running against his own party.

    He needs to be much more careful, define his own Conservativism and put his own stamp on it if he’s going to lead the party.

    Stewart appears to be in the wrong party.
    Easy strap line. Did you even read my post?

    Like I said, I don’t think he is, but he’s enjoying being the outsider far too much without realising he has to lead the inside.
    I read your post. I get the impression that he would be far happier and more at home as a Lib Dem. He is not cut from the same ideological cloth as the likes of Raab or the flamboyance for flamboyance sake Johnson. At best the sort of thoughtful, wet Tory that Thatcher did away with
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    My order

    Gove

    gap

    Javid
    McVey
    Raab

    gap

    Boris
    Hunt

    gap

    Stewart
    The other one
    Handcock
    Leadsom

This discussion has been closed.