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  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited June 2019
    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:



    Also be wary about taking your kids to the local swimming pool - as they will be subject to a bit of chlorine washing!

    The old days of being able to scare people and bend their will seems to be coming to an end.

    I eat chicken in the US all the time - never had food poisoning yet. If only people could see how much water the Dutch pump into chickens...
    Former chief Leaver and second-favourite for next PM Michael Gove has already been concerned about foreign animal husbandry. As to food poisoning, didn't the American CDC put out some figures recently with higher death rates than ours?
    https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    rcs1000 said:

    OK. Let's talk about that US-UK trade deal for a moment.

    1. It's not about the NHS

    2. It's going to be about agriculture.:
    (a) Simply, the Labour Party isn't going to vote for a trade deal with the mortal enemy (Trump's US), while MPs from rural seats aren't going to vote for allowing food produced under US statndards to compete with that produced under UK ones.
    (b) Oh yes, and those Conservative MPs from wealthy cities? They're going to hate the fact that (i) GM crops will be allowed and (ii) the UK will be treaty bound to not even force labelling of GM products.

    3. Under a crash out Brexit scenario, the US Irish lobby is going be pretty pissed. Rightly or wrongly, we will be blamed. I cannot see the House of Representatives handing Trump or the UK a victory under those circumstances.

    4. I can't see the US softening its ISDS requirements - i.e. where there are two US judges for one of ours in dispute resolution. That has led to some seriously unbalanced decisions in NAFTA.

    A US-UK trade deal, no matter how desirable, is a chimera. There aren't the votes for it in the UK. There aren't the votes for it in the US.

    Damn. They'll just have to continue being our biggest single trading partner and largest source of investment both there and here without a trade deal then. How on earth will we cope?
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019
    isam said:
    Looks like a nice day out in the rain. That woman with the blonde hair does look rather angry - did she forget her brolly?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    brendan16 said:

    isam said:
    Looks like a nice day out in the rain. That woman with the blonde hair does look rather angry - did she forget her brolly?
    So much hate. So much venom.

    A kinder, gentler politics in action.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited June 2019
    Poor Jezza

    bitch slapped by Trump

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515506
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited June 2019
    The issue is not chlorine, but why it's needed in the US. Lower rearing standards mean higher infection rates, hence it's needed. Even more worrying is that even with chlorine-washing being completed as routine, the U.S. still has much higher rates of salmonella than ours.

    Hormone-injected beef is the next issue.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Now we know where Lady Nugee was today..

    https://twitter.com/briggs999/status/1135912340811943936
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729

    brendan16 said:

    Talking of US trade deals, or lack thereof:

    https://twitter.com/snlester/status/1135867031671246848

    Are chlorinated washed salads and vegetables ok - it keeps them looking so fresh at Tesco, Waitrose and Sainsburys.

    Also be wary about taking your kids to the local swimming pool - for a bit of chlorine washing!

    Yes, the fuss about this is completely irrational. In fact the best policy would be to have EU standards of rearing AND the US standard of washing the carcasses to reduce salmonella and other pathogens. But sadly, rationality doesn't apply.
    How high are the standards of rearing in Thailand? I believe the EU imports much of its chicken from there.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    brendan16 said:


    Looks like a nice day out in the rain. That woman with the blonde hair does look rather angry - did she forget her brolly?

    I went and yes the constant drizzle did rather spoil the experience.

    Couldn't get near enough to hear the speeches properly either. Was straining to pick up much of what Jeremy was saying, for example.

    How did he come over on the telly?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    brendan16 said:

    isam said:
    Looks like a nice day out in the rain. That woman with the blonde hair does look rather angry - did she forget her brolly?
    So much hate. So much venom.

    A kinder, gentler politics in action.
    If Tory scum deserve to be killed, what do Trump supporters deserve? :o
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Scott_P said:
    Material for a sitcom, or a psychological thriller of a descent into despair?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    This is what happens when you invite the Labour party to these things.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    brendan16 said:

    Talking of US trade deals, or lack thereof:

    https://twitter.com/snlester/status/1135867031671246848

    Are chlorinated washed salads and vegetables ok - it keeps them looking so fresh at Tesco, Waitrose and Sainsburys.

    Also be wary about taking your kids to the local swimming pool - for a bit of chlorine washing!

    Yes, the fuss about this is completely irrational. In fact the best policy would be to have EU standards of rearing AND the US standard of washing the carcasses to reduce salmonella and other pathogens. But sadly, rationality doesn't apply.
    How high are the standards of rearing in Thailand? I believe the EU imports much of its chicken from there.
    In theory, for any farm in Thailand to export to the EU, it needs to obey EU, rather than Thai, food safety standards.

    However, this has been poorly policed historically, with lots of non-compliant chicken coming in.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,684
    RobD said:

    brendan16 said:

    isam said:
    Looks like a nice day out in the rain. That woman with the blonde hair does look rather angry - did she forget her brolly?
    So much hate. So much venom.

    A kinder, gentler politics in action.
    If Tory scum deserve to be killed, what do Trump supporters deserve? :o
    Forced to eat Hawaiian pizzas.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,135
    kinabalu said:

    brendan16 said:


    Looks like a nice day out in the rain. That woman with the blonde hair does look rather angry - did she forget her brolly?

    I went and yes the constant drizzle did rather spoil the experience.

    Couldn't get near enough to hear the speeches properly either. Was straining to pick up much of what Jeremy was saying, for example.

    How did he come over on the telly?
    Crazy shouty Marxist that he is
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    How the hell has Soubry become the leader of 5 ex Lab MPs ?!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
    It is all a matter of perception. Our tax take is at an historic high, yet people still believe the Conservatives are a low-tax party. A competent opposition might make more of this.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    I guess Trumps “Michael who” comments means the reported meeting with him and the president we heard about from the Gove camp is not happening now?
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    Anna Soubry "elected" leader?

    That's quite a strong word for "we're down to my name on the list"...
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Talking of US trade deals, or lack thereof:

    https://twitter.com/snlester/status/1135867031671246848

    Are chlorinated washed salads and vegetables ok - it keeps them looking so fresh at Tesco, Waitrose and Sainsburys.

    Also be wary about taking your kids to the local swimming pool - for a bit of chlorine washing!

    Yes, the fuss about this is completely irrational. In fact the best policy would be to have EU standards of rearing AND the US standard of washing the carcasses to reduce salmonella and other pathogens. But sadly, rationality doesn't apply.
    How high are the standards of rearing in Thailand? I believe the EU imports much of its chicken from there.
    In theory, for any farm in Thailand to export to the EU, it needs to obey EU, rather than Thai, food safety standards.

    However, this has been poorly policed historically, with lots of non-compliant chicken coming in.
    "Non compliant chicken" - maybe *that's* what rump ChUK should call themselves?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Pulpstar said:

    How the hell has Soubry become the leader of 5 ex Lab MPs ?!

    Have you seen those five ex-Labour MPs?
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Talking of US trade deals, or lack thereof:

    https://twitter.com/snlester/status/1135867031671246848

    Are chlorinated washed salads and vegetables ok - it keeps them looking so fresh at Tesco, Waitrose and Sainsburys.

    Also be wary about taking your kids to the local swimming pool - for a bit of chlorine washing!

    Yes, the fuss about this is completely irrational. In fact the best policy would be to have EU standards of rearing AND the US standard of washing the carcasses to reduce salmonella and other pathogens. But sadly, rationality doesn't apply.
    How high are the standards of rearing in Thailand? I believe the EU imports much of its chicken from there.
    In theory, for any farm in Thailand to export to the EU, it needs to obey EU, rather than Thai, food safety standards.

    However, this has been poorly policed historically, with lots of non-compliant chicken coming in.
    And didn't the EU have to recently block chicken from Brazil, which had previously been the main source of poultry imports, due to unacceptable levels of salmonella?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870

    DavidL said:

    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
    It is all a matter of perception. Our tax take is at an historic high, yet people still believe the Conservatives are a low-tax party. A competent opposition might make more of this.
    Maybe but it won't be taken advantage of by a Labour Party who are still obsessed with "Tory cuts". May never seemed to find a problem that tax payers money couldn't solve. The reality is the gap in economic policy between the parties is probably as narrow as it has been for a long time. But its in both their interests to deny this.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    TGOHF said:


    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

    Mr (I assume) Viewcode made the point upthread. At the moment medicines are obtained by the NHS at the best prices it can negotiate, although there are often significant month to month fluctuations, once the use of those medicines, if new, has been sanctioned by NICE.
    AFAIK there are no national constraints on non-branded (generic) medicines. They can be bought from British, European, Asian or American suppliers, depending on price
    However, it's only partially true to say that medicines are 'bought' by the NHS. Community pharmacies, whether Boots or (once upon at time) OldKingCole's Pharmacy buy medicines on the open market, and, when they've been dispensed, the NHS pays for them, telling Boots and OKC's Pharmacy how much they will pay. Even hospitals negotiate their own deals with suppliers, although in my day such deals might well be on a Regional level.
    And the price paid varies, especially for generics.
    I suspect that the fear is that any trade deal involving the NHS will require 'sweetheart' deals with American companies, and further advantage American companies, such as Boots.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    What's interesting from Trump re the Tory contest is his repeated support for Jeremy Hunt (along with Boris). Now obviously Hunt is Foreign Secretary, and Trump might have remembered him from that. But more likely is that his diplomatic brief identified Hunt as a likely winner, surely?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    Soubry will love being leader - she can talk and talk and talk

    And we can all ignore, ignore, ignore
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited June 2019
    Trump specialises in these quite unpleasant put-downs, but at other times genuinely forgets things, too. Either way, what might have been an unpleasant shock for Michael Gove, who must surely have thought Rupert Murdoch's presence at their last meeting symbolised his importance.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Poor Jezza

    bitch slapped by Trump

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515506

    In your haste to use the edgy 'man of the world' phrase 'Bitch Slapped' you have IMO misread this situation.

    The meeting request was made in the almost certain knowledge it would be rejected.

    The motions had to be gone through because Labour had already said Meeting Good / Banquet Bad.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I can't remember all the Change UK MPs. I can't work out who has left. Umunna, Allen, Woolaston and Berger are the ones I have, but aren't there two more? Resorted to wiki to be reminded of Shuker and Smith.

    It sounds like the splitters are still not joining the Lib Dems. Madness. Which is the stronger half?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:



    Also be wary about taking your kids to the local swimming pool - as they will be subject to a bit of chlorine washing!

    The old days of being able to scare people and bend their will seems to be coming to an end.

    I eat chicken in the US all the time - never had food poisoning yet. If only people could see how much water the Dutch pump into chickens...
    and bacon

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870

    TGOHF said:


    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

    Mr (I assume) Viewcode made the point upthread. At the moment medicines are obtained by the NHS at the best prices it can negotiate, although there are often significant month to month fluctuations, once the use of those medicines, if new, has been sanctioned by NICE.
    AFAIK there are no national constraints on non-branded (generic) medicines. They can be bought from British, European, Asian or American suppliers, depending on price
    However, it's only partially true to say that medicines are 'bought' by the NHS. Community pharmacies, whether Boots or (once upon at time) OldKingCole's Pharmacy buy medicines on the open market, and, when they've been dispensed, the NHS pays for them, telling Boots and OKC's Pharmacy how much they will pay. Even hospitals negotiate their own deals with suppliers, although in my day such deals might well be on a Regional level.
    And the price paid varies, especially for generics.
    I suspect that the fear is that any trade deal involving the NHS will require 'sweetheart' deals with American companies, and further advantage American companies, such as Boots.
    Surely the main point is that under US law large public health providers are not allowed by law to use their purchasing power to obtain cheaper drugs. This makes Medicare and the VET programs extremely precarious and gives an enormous subsidy to US pharma, the quid pro quo of which is supposedly more research and new drugs. The NHS is not a money making operation, it is a money spending operation and Trump will look to increase the profits of US pharma even further by seeking to prevent the NHS using its dominant market position in the way it currently does.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    What's interesting from Trump re the Tory contest is his repeated support for Jeremy Hunt (along with Boris). Now obviously Hunt is Foreign Secretary, and Trump might have remembered him from that. But more likely is that his diplomatic brief identified Hunt as a likely winner, surely?

    If one were being Machiavellian, one could suggest that Boris could have mentioned Hunt, rather than Gove, in his 20 minute call, because he thinks Jezza is an easier opponent?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:


    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

    Mr (I assume) Viewcode made the point upthread. At the moment medicines are obtained by the NHS at the best prices it can negotiate, although there are often significant month to month fluctuations, once the use of those medicines, if new, has been sanctioned by NICE.
    AFAIK there are no national constraints on non-branded (generic) medicines. They can be bought from British, European, Asian or American suppliers, depending on price
    However, it's only partially true to say that medicines are 'bought' by the NHS. Community pharmacies, whether Boots or (once upon at time) OldKingCole's Pharmacy buy medicines on the open market, and, when they've been dispensed, the NHS pays for them, telling Boots and OKC's Pharmacy how much they will pay. Even hospitals negotiate their own deals with suppliers, although in my day such deals might well be on a Regional level.
    And the price paid varies, especially for generics.
    I suspect that the fear is that any trade deal involving the NHS will require 'sweetheart' deals with American companies, and further advantage American companies, such as Boots.
    Surely the main point is that under US law large public health providers are not allowed by law to use their purchasing power to obtain cheaper drugs. This makes Medicare and the VET programs extremely precarious and gives an enormous subsidy to US pharma, the quid pro quo of which is supposedly more research and new drugs. The NHS is not a money making operation, it is a money spending operation and Trump will look to increase the profits of US pharma even further by seeking to prevent the NHS using its dominant market position in the way it currently does.
    So the NHS hasn’t been paying its fair share for international drug R&D for the past few decades ?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    DavidL said:

    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
    Wandsworth Conservatives think Justine Greening is about to jump.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:


    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

    Mr (I assume) Viewcode made the point upthread. At the moment medicines are obtained by the NHS at the best prices it can negotiate, although there are often significant month to month fluctuations, once the use of those medicines, if new, has been sanctioned by NICE.
    AFAIK there are no national constraints on non-branded (generic) medicines. They can be bought from British, European, Asian or American suppliers, depending on price
    However, it's only partially true to say that medicines are 'bought' by the NHS. Community pharmacies, whether Boots or (once upon at time) OldKingCole's Pharmacy buy medicines on the open market, and, when they've been dispensed, the NHS pays for them, telling Boots and OKC's Pharmacy how much they will pay. Even hospitals negotiate their own deals with suppliers, although in my day such deals might well be on a Regional level.
    And the price paid varies, especially for generics.
    I suspect that the fear is that any trade deal involving the NHS will require 'sweetheart' deals with American companies, and further advantage American companies, such as Boots.
    Surely the main point is that under US law large public health providers are not allowed by law to use their purchasing power to obtain cheaper drugs. This makes Medicare and the VET programs extremely precarious and gives an enormous subsidy to US pharma, the quid pro quo of which is supposedly more research and new drugs. The NHS is not a money making operation, it is a money spending operation and Trump will look to increase the profits of US pharma even further by seeking to prevent the NHS using its dominant market position in the way it currently does.
    I think that's right. At the moment the DoH effectively sets the prices for most medicines, especially generic ones, and thee's a deal of horse-trading which goes on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:


    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

    Mr (I assume) Viewcode made the point upthread. At the moment medicines are obtained by the NHS at the best prices it can negotiate, although there are often significant month to month fluctuations, once the use of those medicines, if new, has been sanctioned by NICE.
    AFAIK there are no national constraints on non-branded (generic) medicines. They can be bought from British, European, Asian or American suppliers, depending on price
    However, it's only partially true to say that medicines are 'bought' by the NHS. Community pharmacies, whether Boots or (once upon at time) OldKingCole's Pharmacy buy medicines on the open market, and, when they've been dispensed, the NHS pays for them, telling Boots and OKC's Pharmacy how much they will pay. Even hospitals negotiate their own deals with suppliers, although in my day such deals might well be on a Regional level.
    And the price paid varies, especially for generics.
    I suspect that the fear is that any trade deal involving the NHS will require 'sweetheart' deals with American companies, and further advantage American companies, such as Boots.
    Surely the main point is that under US law large public health providers are not allowed by law to use their purchasing power to obtain cheaper drugs. This makes Medicare and the VET programs extremely precarious and gives an enormous subsidy to US pharma, the quid pro quo of which is supposedly more research and new drugs. The NHS is not a money making operation, it is a money spending operation and Trump will look to increase the profits of US pharma even further by seeking to prevent the NHS using its dominant market position in the way it currently does.
    So the NHS hasn’t been paying its fair share for international drug R&D for the past few decades ?

    Nope. We have got our drugs on the cheap.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    DavidL said:

    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
    That was the impression I got for sure.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    kinabalu said:

    Poor Jezza

    bitch slapped by Trump

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515506

    In your haste to use the edgy 'man of the world' phrase 'Bitch Slapped' you have IMO misread this situation.

    The meeting request was made in the almost certain knowledge it would be rejected.

    The motions had to be gone through because Labour had already said Meeting Good / Banquet Bad.
    Read how Trump put it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Crazy shouty Marxist that he is

    Ah good news. Sounds like his voice carried fine for TV then.

    Being there live I could hardly hear a word.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,575
    The daft thing is, this is what the Change MPs who have gone to the Lib Dems should have done in the first place instead of setting up a new party. They would have had plenty of influence and may well have resulted in a couple more seats for the Lib Dems at the Euro elections. Unless you have a genuinely niche market that is not currently served by the existing parties, starting a new one is really not bright.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843

    kinabalu said:

    Poor Jezza

    bitch slapped by Trump

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515506

    In your haste to use the edgy 'man of the world' phrase 'Bitch Slapped' you have IMO misread this situation.

    The meeting request was made in the almost certain knowledge it would be rejected.

    The motions had to be gone through because Labour had already said Meeting Good / Banquet Bad.
    Read how Trump put it.
    Trump is about as unreptuable a source as you can get though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DavidL said:

    This is what happens when you invite the Labour party to these things.
    I walked through it earlier today. A lot of Free Palestine badges and Palestinian flags. Because, er.... @TheJezziah help me out here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
    Wandsworth Conservatives think Justine Greening is about to jump.
    When MPs start going down the line that I haven't changed my views, its the party that's changed its time to call it a day. I'm not saying I disagree with all her points, the Augar report seems to have managed to infuriate every side of the argument at once, but there was no vestige of loyalty there.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    kinabalu said:

    Poor Jezza

    bitch slapped by Trump

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515506

    In your haste to use the edgy 'man of the world' phrase 'Bitch Slapped' you have IMO misread this situation.

    The meeting request was made in the almost certain knowledge it would be rejected.

    The motions had to be gone through because Labour had already said Meeting Good / Banquet Bad.
    Read how Trump put it.
    Trump is about as unreptuable a source as you can get though.
    Unlikely. I can think of lots worse. Too many people are so keen to jump on the Trunp hate bus, they lose perspective of where he sits.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited June 2019
    Trump is notably closer to US health insurance providers, and arguably also the Pharmaceutical industry, than almost any other US big business, ever since his attempts to roll back Obama's health reforms. Around 18 months ago he hosted around 20 heads of US health insurance firms and their underlings, and posed proudly for a "boardroom"-style photo with all of them at the White House. They will be near the top of his agenda for Brexit, along with US agriculture, and driving a wedge into the EU.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    Why have the splitters of the splitters not just gone directly to the lib dems? Is there something to be gained in dragging it out? Lib Dems may only want to accept MPs from winnable seats, taking ones that will certainly lose next time will just suppress their overall net gains
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:
    Very few. The consensus was always that they were doomed to fail.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jun/03/the-truth-about-chlorinated-chicken-review-an-instant-appetite-ruiner

    "US rates of campylobacter infection are 10 times higher than in the UK. The US records hundreds of salmonella deaths a year; the UK has in recent years recorded none."
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    She can wandle off down the Wandle.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    Why have the splitters of the splitters not just gone directly to the lib dems? Is there something to be gained in dragging it out? Lib Dems may only want to accept MPs from winnable seats, taking ones that will certainly lose next time will just suppress their overall net gains

    South Cambs and Totnes are very winnable for the Lib Dems.
  • Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    There are quite a number of Tory MPs who ought to be Lib Dems unfortunately.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    This is what happens when you invite the Labour party to these things.
    I walked through it earlier today. A lot of Free Palestine badges and Palestinian flags. Because, er.... @TheJezziah help me out here.
    I must be feeling particularly contrary today but maybe because his policies are so pro Israel, the acceptance of new settlements on occupied land and the transfer of the embassy to Jerusalem? The Palestinians have a lot more to complain about so far as Trump is concerned than we do. A lot more.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    isam said:
    Very few. The consensus was always that they were doomed to fail.
    :D
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Meeks, to be fair, there was far more potential than was realised. They had a fair wind up until (and including) the trio of Conservative defections.

    But since then they've been dramatically outperformed by the Lib Dems and BP.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Awb683 said:

    There are quite a number of Tory MPs who ought to be Lib Dems unfortunately.

    Unfortunate for who? :p
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited June 2019
    CatMan said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jun/03/the-truth-about-chlorinated-chicken-review-an-instant-appetite-ruiner

    "US rates of campylobacter infection are 10 times higher than in the UK. The US records hundreds of salmonella deaths a year; the UK has in recent years recorded none."

    Yup - and it's a mixture of EU standards and pre-EU British methods that's at the root of that, but the EU has definitely played a fair role.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Raab wonders in from 30 to 22..
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    RobD said:

    Awb683 said:

    There are quite a number of Tory MPs who ought to be Lib Dems unfortunately.

    Unfortunate for who? :p
    For whom, shirley.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,684

    What's interesting from Trump re the Tory contest is his repeated support for Jeremy Hunt (along with Boris). Now obviously Hunt is Foreign Secretary, and Trump might have remembered him from that. But more likely is that his diplomatic brief identified Hunt as a likely winner, surely?

    I like your thinking.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    Pulpstar said:

    Raab wonders in from 30 to 22..

    a wonder to behold
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    #20 was traded on Justine Greening at 7.0 for next Tory leader at one point.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Meeks, to be fair, there was far more potential than was realised. They had a fair wind up until (and including) the trio of Conservative defections.

    But since then they've been dramatically outperformed by the Lib Dems and BP.

    I wrote this at the time and I think I was more charitable to them than most:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/02/21/the-prospects-for-the-independent-group/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,870
    RobD said:

    Awb683 said:

    There are quite a number of Tory MPs who ought to be Lib Dems unfortunately.

    Unfortunate for who? :p
    The Tory majority? Even with DUP support this government is on life support. Two or three more defectors on the back of the leadership contest and the new PM will only be in office long enough to call an election.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,492
    rcs1000 said:

    OK. Let's talk about that US-UK trade deal for a moment.

    1. It's not about the NHS

    2. It's going to be about agriculture.:
    (a) Simply, the Labour Party isn't going to vote for a trade deal with the mortal enemy (Trump's US), while MPs from rural seats aren't going to vote for allowing food produced under US statndards to compete with that produced under UK ones.
    (b) Oh yes, and those Conservative MPs from wealthy cities? They're going to hate the fact that (i) GM crops will be allowed and (ii) the UK will be treaty bound to not even force labelling of GM products.

    3. Under a crash out Brexit scenario, the US Irish lobby is going be pretty pissed. Rightly or wrongly, we will be blamed. I cannot see the House of Representatives handing Trump or the UK a victory under those circumstances.

    4. I can't see the US softening its ISDS requirements - i.e. where there are two US judges for one of ours in dispute resolution. That has led to some seriously unbalanced decisions in NAFTA.

    A US-UK trade deal, no matter how desirable, is a chimera. There aren't the votes for it in the UK. There aren't the votes for it in the US.

    So, what you’re saying is, that No Deal is better than a Bad Deal?

    Got it.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    tlg86 said:

    If any of the Chukkas join the Lib Dems, then the Yellow Team should insist on them holding by-elections.

    Why do you Tories spend all your time telling other people what they ought to do?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. Let's talk about that US-UK trade deal for a moment.

    1. It's not about the NHS

    2. It's going to be about agriculture.:
    (a) Simply, the Labour Party isn't going to vote for a trade deal with the mortal enemy (Trump's US), while MPs from rural seats aren't going to vote for allowing food produced under US statndards to compete with that produced under UK ones.
    (b) Oh yes, and those Conservative MPs from wealthy cities? They're going to hate the fact that (i) GM crops will be allowed and (ii) the UK will be treaty bound to not even force labelling of GM products.

    3. Under a crash out Brexit scenario, the US Irish lobby is going be pretty pissed. Rightly or wrongly, we will be blamed. I cannot see the House of Representatives handing Trump or the UK a victory under those circumstances.

    4. I can't see the US softening its ISDS requirements - i.e. where there are two US judges for one of ours in dispute resolution. That has led to some seriously unbalanced decisions in NAFTA.

    A US-UK trade deal, no matter how desirable, is a chimera. There aren't the votes for it in the UK. There aren't the votes for it in the US.

    So, what you’re saying is, that No Deal is better than a Bad Deal?

    Got it.
    Here's the thing. The swashbuckling Captain Onedin Brexiteers all claim to be very keen on trade deals around the world in the abstract. So keen are they, they're tearing up the biggest and deepest trade deal that Britain has in order to get others. But when it comes to the concrete, they shun the necessary compromises.

    Just what is it that Leavers are now trying to achieve?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,492
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Tabman said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen should always have been in the Lib Dems.

    And, judging by her interview this morning, so should Justine Greening
    That was a pretty extraordinary interview. A Tory wanting cross subsidy of University fees by high earners. And more Inheritance tax to top it up. And more taxes on business to top it up some more. And use those top ups to fund apprenticeships to boot. I have rarely heard a Tory quite so keen on tax. You honestly felt that she had already left the party, at least mentally.
    Wandsworth Conservatives think Justine Greening is about to jump.
    She’s been on a journey for some time, I think.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if she kept going and ended up in the Labour Party.

    Maybe that’s what coming out the other side of a relationship with Mark Clarke can do to you.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    Mr. Meeks, to be fair, there was far more potential than was realised. They had a fair wind up until (and including) the trio of Conservative defections.

    But since then they've been dramatically outperformed by the Lib Dems and BP.

    They have been even more dramatically outperformed by Tom Watson. Many may not thank him for it, but the Deputy Labour Leader may well have kept Labour together. Another 30 or 40 defections and things would look very, very different.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    “UK Change: The Group of Independents”
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,492
    Has Andrea Leadsom got any sort of launch video out or campaign going at all?

    As far as I can tell she’s just gone on Marr and LBC radio and done ten tweets.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Meanwhile on planet irrelevant:

    "Mr Cable told BBC News: "I declined the invitation to go to the palace, and I certainly haven't asked for a meeting and he was not after one with me.

    "That doesn't mean I don't believe in talking to important people."
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited June 2019

    The daft thing is, this is what the Change MPs who have gone to the Lib Dems should have done in the first place instead of setting up a new party. They would have had plenty of influence and may well have resulted in a couple more seats for the Lib Dems at the Euro elections. Unless you have a genuinely niche market that is not currently served by the existing parties, starting a new one is really not bright.

    Yes. Spot on.

    I don't think we've seen the end of the story here yet. I'm expecting Allen and Wollaston, at least, to take the Lib Dem whip at some point before the next election. Umunna will probably end up running some incredibly tedious think-tank.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    Awb683 said:

    There are quite a number of Tory MPs who ought to be Lib Dems unfortunately.

    Unfortunate for who? :p
    The Tory majority? Even with DUP support this government is on life support. Two or three more defectors on the back of the leadership contest and the new PM will only be in office long enough to call an election.
    A few more than that and the new Conservative leader might not get to be Prime Minister.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Six CUK leave, Anna is now the leader.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,492

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. Let's talk about that US-UK trade deal for a moment.

    1. It's not about the NHS

    2. It's going to be about agriculture.:
    (a) Simply, the Labour Party isn't going to vote for a trade deal with the mortal enemy (Trump's US), while MPs from rural seats aren't going to vote for allowing food produced under US statndards to compete with that produced under UK ones.
    (b) Oh yes, and those Conservative MPs from wealthy cities? They're going to hate the fact that (i) GM crops will be allowed and (ii) the UK will be treaty bound to not even force labelling of GM products.

    3. Under a crash out Brexit scenario, the US Irish lobby is going be pretty pissed. Rightly or wrongly, we will be blamed. I cannot see the House of Representatives handing Trump or the UK a victory under those circumstances.

    4. I can't see the US softening its ISDS requirements - i.e. where there are two US judges for one of ours in dispute resolution. That has led to some seriously unbalanced decisions in NAFTA.

    A US-UK trade deal, no matter how desirable, is a chimera. There aren't the votes for it in the UK. There aren't the votes for it in the US.

    So, what you’re saying is, that No Deal is better than a Bad Deal?

    Got it.
    Here's the thing. The swashbuckling Captain Onedin Brexiteers all claim to be very keen on trade deals around the world in the abstract. So keen are they, they're tearing up the biggest and deepest trade deal that Britain has in order to get others. But when it comes to the concrete, they shun the necessary compromises.

    Just what is it that Leavers are now trying to achieve?
    I’m not that interested in a comprehensive FTA with the USA - I might be interested in micro deals, like liberalising passport control, and other services equivalencies - and I was happy with May’s Deal with the EU. I’d like a closer strategic relationship with India too but that too might not be possible.

    Compromises aren’t a problem for me.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Has Andrea Leadsom got any sort of launch video out or campaign going at all?

    As far as I can tell she’s just gone on Marr and LBC radio and done ten tweets.

    She's not a serious candidate - just after a cabinet position.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Incidentally, even the rump Change UK sounds much more amenable to co-operation with the Lib Dems than Chris Leslie, at least, had previously been thought to be: "[Change UK has] called for a cross-party summit of the UK’s smaller political parties to discuss the democratic crisis facing the country, and the need to break the cartel of the bigger established parties."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Read how Trump put it.

    I have. He expressed himself as one would expect.

    He probably calculated that it would be lapped up by his fans as him 'bitch slapping' the poor hapless Labour leader.

    He's not a stupid guy, Trump. Far from it.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    If all these CHUKkers join the Lib Dems they are gonna need a bigger Taxi!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20

    "Listenin' late last night
    I heard the screen door slam
    And a big yellow taxi
    Took my girl away
    Now, don't it always seem to go
    That you don't know what you've got
    Til its gone
    They paved paradise
    And put up a parking lot"
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:


    viewcode said:



    . If a firm can gain control of the NHS

    Well that is up to the government not a byproduct of trading.

    People want healthcare - do they cure if the cure for their disease comes from Glaxo, Roche or Astra Zeneca ?

    Mr (I assume) Viewcode made the point upthread. At the moment medicines are obtained by the NHS at the best prices it can negotiate, although there are often significant month to month fluctuations, once the use of those medicines, if new, has been sanctioned by NICE.
    AFAIK there are no national constraints on non-branded (generic) medicines. They can be bought from British, European, Asian or American suppliers, depending on price
    However, it's only partially true to say that medicines are 'bought' by the NHS. Community pharmacies, whether Boots or (once upon at time) OldKingCole's Pharmacy buy medicines on the open market, and, when they've been dispensed, the NHS pays for them, telling Boots and OKC's Pharmacy how much they will pay. Even hospitals negotiate their own deals with suppliers, although in my day such deals might well be on a Regional level.
    And the price paid varies, especially for generics.
    I suspect that the fear is that any trade deal involving the NHS will require 'sweetheart' deals with American companies, and further advantage American companies, such as Boots.
    Surely the main point is that under US law large public health providers are not allowed by law to use their purchasing power to obtain cheaper drugs. This makes Medicare and the VET programs extremely precarious and gives an enormous subsidy to US pharma, the quid pro quo of which is supposedly more research and new drugs. The NHS is not a money making operation, it is a money spending operation and Trump will look to increase the profits of US pharma even further by seeking to prevent the NHS using its dominant market position in the way it currently does.
    So the NHS hasn’t been paying its fair share for international drug R&D for the past few decades ?

    The NHS has negotiated with drug providers, and got them competing against each other. It has done what US private hospitals and health groups do.

    Because of lobbying pressure from US pharmaceutical compaies Medicare and Medicaid are not allowed to negotiate with Pfizer, Glaxo, etc. The result is that they pay 2-3x the world market price for most drugs.

    However, it is worth remembering that most drugs in the US are not bought by Medicare/Medicaid but by patients directly. If you are prescribed a drug, it's your responsibility to pay for it, and it may (or may not) be subsidised by your healthcare provider.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Mark, indeed. And that might see Corbyn become PM.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    TGOHF said:

    Has Andrea Leadsom got any sort of launch video out or campaign going at all?

    As far as I can tell she’s just gone on Marr and LBC radio and done ten tweets.

    She's not a serious candidate - just after a cabinet position.
    Someone has invested the best part of half a million shoring up her position as third favourite on Betfair.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    edited June 2019
    The alt-centre?
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Incidentally, even the rump Change UK sounds much more amenable to co-operation with the Lib Dems than Chris Leslie, at least, had previously been thought to be: "[Change UK has] called for a cross-party summit of the UK’s smaller political parties to discuss the democratic crisis facing the country, and the need to break the cartel of the bigger established parties."

    Wouldn't it be ironic if they did this at the time FPTP finally works in their favour?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    TOPPING said:


    I walked through it earlier today. A lot of Free Palestine badges and Palestinian flags. Because, er.... @TheJezziah help me out here.

    Yes I saw you.

    Why were you just in shorts and singlet on a day like today?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,264
    edited June 2019
    I'm glad that someone wrote their names down; was having trouble remembering.

    Anyhoo, who's going to write the new song?

    Souby-doobie-do ... where are you?
    You've got some work to do now

    Souby-doobie-do ... where are you?
    They need some help from you now

    Come on Souby-Doo - I see you
    Pretending you've got a party

    But you're not fooling me, cos I can see
    You don't sound very hearty


    ie Obviously not me.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    edited June 2019

    I can't remember all the Change UK MPs. I can't work out who has left. Umunna, Allen, Woolaston and Berger are the ones I have, but aren't there two more? Resorted to wiki to be reminded of Shuker and Smith.

    It sounds like the splitters are still not joining the Lib Dems. Madness. Which is the stronger half?

    Why else would they have left?

    These things take a little time to organise. Aside from anything else the LibDems will want to interview them before taking them in. And it's an opportunity worth leaving for the new leader to enjoy. And the MPs will want to talk about fighting their seats, which might be tricky where there's an established LD PPC.
This discussion has been closed.