> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > For PB fans of FPTP: > > Narendra Modi's BJP won 303 seats of 543 in India's parliament on only 37.5% of the vote. Overall, his allies in the National Democratic Alliance pushed the total up to 358 seats.
Most Nationalists e.g. Modi, Trump, Salvini etc have won on under 50% of the vote. Even Bolsonaro failed to get over 50% in the first round in Brazil.
> @stodge said: > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party > > What of the Conservatives ? > > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP? > > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it.
If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway
from header: "But in the cold light of day, are we sure we want a Government that ignores half the population?" When has is been otherwise - Blair perhaps very sporadically, and the coalition for an instant or two.
"May and Corbyn have been quite brave" May has shown fortitude beyond measure. Brave though? Neither of them have presided over the slightest scrap of new political thinking. They're both horribly defensive politicians.
"Ultimately one or the other will prevail." [hard leave/hard remain] Not a chance either will happen. Hard leave is going to attract mitigation like fruit flys on a Farage. and hard remain is just poppycock.
> @nichomar said: > > @rottenborough said: > > > This seems odd. Why so many Maths/Comp sci people not able to pay off their student debt and thus will be written off? Higher than English and History. > > > > > > https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1134103738182963202 > > > > > > I can't be the only one to notice that philosophy is missing from that list. That makes it pretty clear to me that philosophy is the only subject that is clearly and unambiguously positive for the country. > > Combined with politics and economics?
> @HYUFD said: > > @stodge said: > > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party > > > > What of the Conservatives ? > > > > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP? > > > > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it. > > If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway
@williamglenn said: "Which leads to a sensitive discussion as to how far away from the actual frontier checks need to be in order to not be understood as border checks. Five miles? Ten miles? Belfast? The Port of Larne?"
++++++++++++++++++++++
That's a technical discussion to have between the UK and Irish governments (who are, of course, both signatories to the Good Friday Agreement).
What it is not, is some killer argument for the impossibilty of spot checks away from the border.
Furthermore, from a technical point of view, neither Eire nor the UK will be stopping vehicles in the road. Instead, there will be occasional checks at the origin and destination to ensure that what was declared was what actually arrived.
You know, like happens under the system between Canada and the US.
> @HYUFD said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > > The key point that is missed by both sides is that getting their way won't make the other side go away. The nationalists will still be there if we stay in the EU, and the internationalists won't change their mind or flee the country if we leave. > > > > > ---------- > > > > The solution is to break up the UK. English nationalists will get a state called England again, and by turning Europe into the glue that binds the former nations of the UK, it will allow us to have a healthier and more constructive attitude to European integration. > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
Link to the polling the English would rather break up the union than stay in the EU
> @Mortimer said: > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > The mistake you (and a lot of other No Dealers) make is to think that the EU want us in the backstop. The reality is the backstop is at least as uncomfortable to the EU as to us. > > > > It leaves us in a customs union with they EU, with no barriers to the flow of (compliant*) goods between the two. > > > > But it also involves no Freedom of Movement or fees. From a purely theoretical perspective, it would allow to us (for example) remove all worker and environmental protection, and use this to get our costs down. > > > > Given the EU extracts fees from other countries in a similar position, and requires bodies to make sure that neither side engages in a race to the bottom as far as regulation goes, this is not a state they want to be in. > > > > Furthermore, the backstop is only applicable in the event that: > > (a) we cannot agree an FTA and > > (b) no technical solution like the US/Canada system for the preclearance of trucks is implemented** > > > > If the EU is not sincerely working towards either of these, then we are free to go to international arbitration***. > > > > So what are we scared of? If the EU is not sincere in wanting an FTA or a technical solution, we have a mechanism for departure. If they are sincere, then it's not an issue. > > > > * Compliant means meets EU standards for voltage, radio emissions, etc. > > ** Yes, Canada and the US have a system for preclearing shipments. > > *** The UK happily signs up to international arbitration all the time > > Indeed. I’ve been arguing similarly for months; I assumed people > Finally understanding this would lead to the deal passing. > > But it didn’t because: > > A) the opposition was entrenched and consists of no compromise no dealers and no brexiters > > the salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > So the question I ponder is this; would good salesmanship get the dal over the line?
The salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
Eighteen months earlier
The salesmanship of the manifesto was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
Did May, the people who surround her and the rest of the Conservative leadership and government learn nothing from the GE ?
How many people could fuck up so badly as the Conservative leadership did at the GE and then do nothing to ensure that a similar fuck up couldn't happen again ?
> @Sean_F said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @kle4 said: > > > > @kle4 said: > > > > > > > > @kle4 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On topic the key as ever remains Labour MPs from Leave seats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > &tip them towards the WA especially if Labpur policy shifts to EUref2 or revoke. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With 286 MPs already having voted for the WA at MV3, 50 Labour MPs added on top of that makes 336 and a majority > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's touching how you are the only person in the country still holding out for the Labour leavers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not holding out, I would rather enjoy seeing Yvette Cooper and Gloria Del Piero and Ed Miliband and Dennis Skinner lose their seats to the Brexit Party as they would on today's Yougov, if they fail to deliver Brexit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However a Withdrawal Agreement remains the best solution for Brexit and it will only be delivered with Labour MPs from Leave seats votes that is a fact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well yes, it is fact it will only be delivered that way, it is not a fact or even a likely occurence it will happen. You keep falling back on the same trick as the no dealers - 'It will happen because it must happen'. > > > > > > > > > > > > It may happen because if Labour MPs arty > > > > > > They. faced. the. choice. already. > > > > > > It was quite apparent some time ago it was the WA, or it might well be no deal or no brexit. They still said no. > > > > > > Your reasoning, unintentionally, oor. > > > > > > I happen to have more respect for their intellect than the idea they could not see 2 feet in front of themselves when rejecting the WA over and over and over. > > > > Far beyond me to comment on the intellect of n allow any form of Brexit. > > > > Exhibit A: Lisa Nandy > > > > https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1133295790120734721?s=20 > > > > https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1132772199004332032?s=20 > > They thought that by voting down the WA, they could (a) do immense harm to the Conservatives and (b) remain unscathed. > > (a) was correct (b) wasn't.
> @rcs1000 said: > > That's a technical discussion to have between the UK and Irish governments (who are, of course, both signatories to the Good Friday Agreement). > > What it is not, is some killer argument for the impossibilty of spot checks away from the border. > > Furthermore, from a technical point of view, neither Eire nor the UK will be stopping vehicles in the road. Instead, there will be occasional checks at the origin and destination to ensure that what was declared was what actually arrived. > > You know, like happens under the system between Canada and the US. -----------
In order to declare victory, it's not sufficient to find some type of check away from the border that is acceptable, but to design a system that does away with the need for regulatory alignment and a customs union. You won't find any useful lessons from Canada and the US, which has a hard border.
> @Sean_F said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @stodge said: > > > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party > > > > > > What of the Conservatives ? > > > > > > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP? > > > > > > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it. > > > > If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway > > Farage must dream of A50 being revoked.
Farage's ideal scenario would be for PM Hunt to implement a Commons vote to revoke Article 50 without even another referendum in October, in that scenario he might as well start measuring the curtains at No 10
> @rcs1000 said: > @williamglenn said: > "Which leads to a sensitive discussion as to how far away from the actual frontier checks need to be in order to not be understood as border checks. Five miles? Ten miles? Belfast? The Port of Larne?" > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > That's a technical discussion to have between the UK and Irish governments (who are, of course, both signatories to the Good Friday Agreement). > > What it is not, is some killer argument for the impossibilty of spot checks away from the border. > > Furthermore, from a technical point of view, neither Eire nor the UK will be stopping vehicles in the road. Instead, there will be occasional checks at the origin and destination to ensure that what was declared was what actually arrived. > > You know, like happens under the system between Canada and the US.
The whole Irish border thing is a non-issue. If it becomes an issue then the communities along the border will be belly-aching to do something or other, as the lorry-loads of widgets crossing the border for tax reasons are disturbing their sleep.
The EU has yet to make recommendations about hair-nets made from human skin. (No idea if there is such a thing, but seems sufficiently ickey and unlikely.) Do they need to do so?
Governments should try to ignore as much as possible.
> @HYUFD said: > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it ---------
I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> @HYUFD said: > > @Sean_F said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > @stodge said: > > > > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party > > > > > > > > What of the Conservatives ? > > > > > > > > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP? > > > > > > > > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it. > > > > > > If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway > > > > Farage must dream of A50 being revoked. > > Farage's ideal scenario would be for PM Hunt to implement a Commons vote to revoke Article 50 without even another referendum in October, in that scenario he might as well start measuring the curtains at No 10
Sure. The Conservative vote would simply crater in that scenario.
> @another_richard said: > > @Mortimer said: > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > > The mistake you (and a lot of other No Dealers) make is to think that the EU want us in the backstop. The reality is the backstop is at least as uncomfortable to the EU as to us. > > > > > > It leaves us in a customs union with they EU, with no barriers to the flow of (compliant*) goods between the two. > > > > > > But it also involves no Freedom of Movement or fees. From a purely theoretical perspective, it would allow to us (for example) remove all worker and environmental protection, and use this to get our costs down. > > > > > > Given the EU extracts fees from other countries in a similar position, and requires bodies to make sure that neither side engages in a race to the bottom as far as regulation goes, this is not a state they want to be in. > > > > > > Furthermore, the backstop is only applicable in the event that: > > > (a) we cannot agree an FTA and > > > (b) no technical solution like the US/Canada system for the preclearance of trucks is implemented** > > > > > > If the EU is not sincerely working towards either of these, then we are free to go to international arbitration***. > > > > > > So what are we scared of? If the EU is not sincere in wanting an FTA or a technical solution, we have a mechanism for departure. If they are sincere, then it's not an issue. > > > > > > * Compliant means meets EU standards for voltage, radio emissions, etc. > > > ** Yes, Canada and the US have a system for preclearing shipments. > > > *** The UK happily signs up to international arbitration all the time > > > > Indeed. I’ve been arguing similarly for months; I assumed people > > Finally understanding this would lead to the deal passing. > > > > But it didn’t because: > > > > A) the opposition was entrenched and consists of no compromise no dealers and no brexiters > > > > the salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > > > So the question I ponder is this; would good salesmanship get the dal over the line? > > The salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > Eighteen months earlier > > The salesmanship of the manifesto was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > Did May, the people who surround her and the rest of the Conservative leadership and government learn nothing from the GE ? > > How many people could fuck up so badly as the Conservative leadership did at the GE and then do nothing to ensure that a similar fuck up couldn't happen again ?
Absolutely.
The manifesto was entirely sellable - ‘you’ll never have to sell your house to get care - and we’re doubling the amount your heirs wil get to keep in the unlikely event that you do need residential care in your final days’
> @jayfdee said: > Well, I am sure , I am not alone. I have now voted LibDems twice, a bad habit is developing, but in a GE, I would vote for them again. > It is worth one 5 year period to kill Brexit, and ensure no Corbyn, and then revert to whatever new sensible party emerges.
If you think Brexit can be killed in 5, 10 or 20 years then you are sorely mistaken. Just because you might manage to stop it now won't make the anger go away, nor the causes of Brexit. All you will do is ensure that next time around it is far more extreme.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > > > > The key point that is missed by both sides is that getting their way won't make the other side go away. The nationalists will still be there if we stay in the EU, and the internationalists won't change their mind or flee the country if we leave. > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > The solution is to break up the UK. English nationalists will get a state called England again, and by turning Europe into the glue that binds the former nations of the UK, it will allow us to have a healthier and more constructive attitude to European integration. > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > Link to the polling the English would rather break up the union than stay in the EU > > That is some claim
52% of English voters say a Scottish vote for independence in a second referendum would still be a price worth paying in order to deliver Brexit (Including 77% of Tory voters and 88% of Leave voters)
> @williamglenn said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > --------- > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > The only transformation will be the removal of the Scottish Remain vote which makes it more likely we never rejoin.
> @rcs1000 said: > > @rottenborough said: > > This seems odd. Why so many Maths/Comp sci people not able to pay off their student debt and thus will be written off? Higher than English and History. > > > > https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1134103738182963202 > > I can't be the only one to notice that philosophy is missing from that list. That makes it pretty clear to me that philosophy is the only subject that is clearly and unambiguously positive for the country.
> @Mortimer said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @Mortimer said: > > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > > > > The mistake you (and a lot of other No Dealers) make is to think that the EU want us in the backstop. The reality is the backstop is at least as uncomfortable to the EU as to us. > > > > > > > > If the EU is not sincerely working towards either of these, then we are free to go to international arbitration***. > > > > > > > > So what are we scared of? If the EU is not sincere in wanting an FTA or a technical solution, we have a mechanism for departure. If they are sincere, then it's not an issue. > > > > > > > > * Compliant means meets EU standards for voltage, radio emissions, etc. > > > > ** Yes, Canada and the US have a system for preclearing shipments. > > > > *** The UK happily signs up to international arbitration all the time > > > > > > Indeed. I’ve been arguing similarly for months; I assumed people > > > Finally understanding this would lead to the deal passing. > > > > > > But it didn’t because: > > > > > > A) the opposition was entrenched and consists of no compromise no dealers and no brexiters > > > > > > the salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > > > > > So the question I ponder is this; would good salesmanship get the dal over the line? > > > > The salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > > > Eighteen months earlier > > > > The salesmanship of the manifesto was SO APPALLINGLY BAD > > > > Did May, the people who surround her and the rest of the Conservative leadership and government learn nothing from the GE ? > > > > How many people could fuck up so badly as the Conservative leadership did at the GE and then do nothing to ensure that a similar fuck up couldn't happen again ? > > Absolutely. > > The manifesto was entirely sellable - ‘you’ll never have to sell your house to get care - and we’re doubling the amount your heirs wil get to keep in the unlikely event that you do need residential care in your final days’
I agree, I watched it live and then the next day as well and I could not believe what a horlicks she made of a good argument. She could even have mentioned that the alternative was the young struggling to get on the housing ladder or raising young children would otherwise have to pay more tax.
Also I do not think she created the bad arguments, that must have been her advisers.
> @williamglenn said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > --------- > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. >
It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
...site, eliminates the problem completely. There seem to be plenty who prefer chaos to compromise, but I’m sure someone posted a fix (right click on the mouse?) the other day
> @HYUFD said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > > > > > > The key point that is missed by both sides is that getting their way won't make the other side go away. The nationalists will still be there if we stay in the EU, and the internationalists won't change their mind or flee the country if we leave. > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > The solution is to break up the UK. English nationalists will get a state called England again, and by turning Europe into the glue that binds the former nations of the UK, it will allow us to have a healthier and more constructive attitude to European integration. > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > > Link to the polling the English would rather break up the union than stay in the EU > > > > That is some claim > > 52% of English voters say a Scottish vote for independence in a second referendum would still be a price worth paying in order to deliver Brexit (Including 77% of Tory voters and 88% of Leave voters) > > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed
Small point but why do people post comments they deem off topic preceded by ‘OT’, when that could just as easily mean ‘on topic’ which people also precede posts with at times?
> @isam said: > Small point but why do people post comments they deem off topic preceded by ‘OT’, when that could just as easily mean ‘on topic’ which people also precede posts with at times?
Shouldn't you have preceeded that post with OT?
Pesonally I think OT should only be used for Off-topic, the assumption being most posts are repalted to the current topic or previous posts in the thread.
The standard delay for Tory leadership candidates announcing their candidacy seems to me to be the availability of a leading article in the Telegraph. Three candidates did write articles for the Guardian when announcing.
So get prepared the big lead article from a Tory politician tomorrow is, de dah, de dah roll of drums - Mark Francois.
... brexiteers ... need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
Under FPTP and with the wide geographic base of support that TBP has (and assuming some sort of Brexit betrayal that caused the GE), I think you'd find the Leavers would have the majority in parliament.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > --------- > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
"Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible"
Maybe. What actually happens if there is another referendum and we vote to leave again? We have to negotiate a "no-deal" package. Which of course will be a deal.
We also have to understand what remain would look like. If we stay, can we get the EU parliament to relocate to London?
> Well, I am sure , I am not alone. I have now voted LibDems twice, a bad habit is developing, but in a GE, I would vote for them again.
> It is worth one 5 year period to kill Brexit, and ensure no Corbyn, and then revert to whatever new sensible party emerges.
If you think Brexit can be killed in 5, 10 or 20 years then you are sorely mistaken. Just because you might manage to stop it now won't make the anger go away, nor the causes of Brexit. All you will do is ensure that next time around it is far more extreme.
Oh the obsession about what? 20 years down the road and a 65 year old faridge stands for parliament for the 24th time without being elected. The world will need new structures in 20 years that won’t involve nation states and petty minded nationalism.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > --------- > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
> > I’m assuming some seeds and saplings are safely in a lab somewhere for preservation “just in case”.
>
> I seem to recall that some Ash some trees are developing resistance to die back. It was ever thus, except for the dinosaurs who couldn't cope with an asteroid collision.
>
> Isn't that the case for Elm trees who were similarly affected by disease>?
>
The world is full of small, feathered dinosaurs, referred to by no-fun killjoys as "descended from dinosaurs."
> @another_richard said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > --------- > > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ? > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them.
England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot!
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > --------- > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
Judging by the polling, it is entirely possible that if the public are given a choice between revoking A50 and going for a No Deal Brexit, they might opt for the latter.
> @another_richard said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > --------- > > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ? > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
"Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. "
Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
> > I’m assuming some seeds and saplings are safely in a lab somewhere for preservation “just in case”.
>
> I seem to recall that some Ash some trees are developing resistance to die back. It was ever thus, except for the dinosaurs who couldn't cope with an asteroid collision.
>
> Isn't that the case for Elm trees who were similarly affected by disease>?
>
The world is full of small, feathered dinosaurs, referred to by no-fun killjoys as "descended from dinosaurs."
> @Benpointer said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > > --------- > > > > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > > > > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority > > > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ? > > > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. > > Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them. > > England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot!
Remind me what student tuition fees are in England compared with Scotland.
Or where the English parliament is.
Or why the Conservatives - the so-called party of the union - thought it a good idea to stop WFA in England but to keep paying it in Scotland.
> @Omnium said: > "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. " > > Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
Not a good enough reason, not when we English are getting taken for mugs.
> @Omnium said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > > --------- > > > > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > > > > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority > > > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ? > > > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. > > "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. " > > Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
> @another_richard said: > > @Benpointer said: > > > @another_richard said: > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > > > --------- > > > > > > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > > > > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > > > > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority > > > > > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ? > > > > > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. > > > > Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them. > > > > England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot! > > Remind me what student tuition fees are in England compared with Scotland. > > Or where the English parliament is. > > Or why the Conservatives - the so-called party of the union - thought it a good idea to stop WFA in England but to keep paying it in Scotland.
Honestly, your sense of English hurt is vastly over-developed. England has, by virtue of its size the biggest influence on the UK government. We English could easily vote in a government that removed student fees, or set up an English parliament if we wanted (I have no idea what WFA is btw). It's just that the electorate has chosen not to.
> @Philip_Thompson said: > > @Omnium said: > > "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. " > > > > Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin. > > Not a good enough reason, not when we English are getting taken for mugs.
So start an English Independence from the UK party.
Personally I think OT should only be used for Off-topic, the assumption being most posts are repalted to the current topic or previous posts in the thread.
> @Benpointer said: > > So start an English Independence form the UK party.
You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
> @ydoethur said: > Personally I think OT should only be used for Off-topic, the assumption being most posts are repalted to the current topic or previous posts in the thread. > > On PB?!!!
> @Benpointer said: > > @Philip_Thompson said: > > > @Omnium said: > > > "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. " > > > > > > Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin. > > > > Not a good enough reason, not when we English are getting taken for mugs. > > So start an English Independence from the UK party.
> @Benpointer said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @Benpointer said: > > > > @another_richard said: > > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union > > > > > > > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible > > > > > > > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority > > > > > > > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ? > > > > > > > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. > > > > > > Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them. > > > > > > England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot! > > > > Remind me what student tuition fees are in England compared with Scotland. > > > > Or where the English parliament is. > > > > Or why the Conservatives - the so-called party of the union - thought it a good idea to stop WFA in England but to keep paying it in Scotland. > > Honestly, your sense of English hurt is vastly over-developed. England has, by virtue of its size the biggest influence on the UK government. We English could easily vote in a government that removed student fees, or set up an English parliament if we wanted (I have no idea what WFA is btw). It's just that the electorate has chosen not to.
Winter Fuel Allowance
And its that sort of attitude which allows England to lose out time and time again it may only be the change of a 50/50 situation to a 49/51 situation but those little differences compound up.
For that reason I admire the SNP as they are always willing to fight their hardest on behalf of Scotland.
> @williamglenn said: > > @Benpointer said: > > > > So start an English Independence form the UK party. > > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really.
A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit:
- What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more?
- What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.)
> @Pulpstar said: > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons :: > > Morph > Down with the kids > Spiritual journey > The clown > Mr 360 spin > Traditional values > Vain & vacant > "The schemer" > Mother > Splash > Hard man > > >
The posh one The bland one The weird one The brown one The black one The trendy one The scouse one The old one The fanatical one The unknown one Boris
or
Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Who ? Boris
> @another_richard said: > > @Pulpstar said: > > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons :: > > > > Morph > > Down with the kids > > Spiritual journey > > The clown > > Mr 360 spin > > Traditional values > > Vain & vacant > > "The schemer" > > Mother > > Splash > > Hard man > > > > > > > > The posh one > The bland one > The weird one > The brown one > The black one > The trendy one > The scouse one > The old one > The fanatical one > The unknown one > Boris > > or > > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Who ? > Boris
It’s hard enough remembering seven dwarves, never mind fourteen.
> @rcs1000 said: > @another_richard said: > There's more to life than the consumption of ever increasing amounts of imported tat. > > ++++++++ > > Candy Crush... you're talking about Candy Crush, right?
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons :: > > > > > > Morph > > > Down with the kids > > > Spiritual journey > > > The clown > > > Mr 360 spin > > > Traditional values > > > Vain & vacant > > > "The schemer" > > > Mother > > > Splash > > > Hard man > > > > > > > > > > > > > The posh one > > The bland one > > The weird one > > The brown one > > The black one > > The trendy one > > The scouse one > > The old one > > The fanatical one > > The unknown one > > Boris > > > > or > > > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Who ? > > Boris > > It’s hard enough remembering seven dwarves, never mind fourteen.
Surely there are quite a few posh ones - how many went to Eton?
(And out of interest, how many went to a bog-standard comprehensive?)
When Norway got its independence in 1905 (after a referendum) they invited a Danish prince to be their king. Prince Carl of Denmark became Haakon VII of Norway. In fact, he became monarch before his father and elder brother became monarchs of Denmark.
Here’s an idea: We get Harry. You can keep Charles and William.
> @Benpointer said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @Benpointer said: > > > > > > So start an English Independence form the UK party. > > > > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England. > > The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really. > > A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit: > > - What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more? > > - What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.)
- Russia still kept its seat after the dissolution of the USSR and the People's Republic of China took the place of the Republic of China
-England and Wales, like the cricket board
Plus there is of course no guarantee Scotland would not eventually vote for independence or Northern Ireland for a united Ireland even if we did not leave the EU though the chance would be less than in the event of a No Deal Brexit
> @Benpointer said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > @another_richard said: > > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons :: > > > > > > > > Morph > > > > Down with the kids > > > > Spiritual journey > > > > The clown > > > > Mr 360 spin > > > > Traditional values > > > > Vain & vacant > > > > "The schemer" > > > > Mother > > > > Splash > > > > Hard man > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The posh one > > > The bland one > > > The weird one > > > The brown one > > > The black one > > > The trendy one > > > The scouse one > > > The old one > > > The fanatical one > > > The unknown one > > > Boris > > > > > > or > > > > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Who ? > > > Boris > > > > It’s hard enough remembering seven dwarves, never mind fourteen. > > Surely there are quite a few posh ones - how many went to Eton? > > (An out of interest, how many went to a bog-standard comprehensive?)
Poshness is relative.
So Jesse Norman is the posh one and the others are the sort of people who had to buy there own furniture / castle.
> @HYUFD said: > > @Benpointer said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > @Benpointer said: > > > > > > > > So start an English Independence form the UK party. > > > > > > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England. > > > > The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really. > > > > A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit: > > > > - What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more? > > > > - What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.) > > - Russia still kept its seat after the dissolution of the USSR and the People's Republic of China took the place of the Republic of China > > -England and Wales, like the cricket board > > Plus there is of course no guarantee Scotland would not eventually vote for independence or Northern Ireland for a united Ireland even if we did not leave the EU though the chance would be less than in the event of a No Deal Brexit
1. No chance England would (or E&W) would keep a permanent seat. 2. Ugh. Just ugh!
> @Benpointer said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @Benpointer said: > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > @Benpointer said: > > > > > > > > > > So start an English Independence form the UK party. > > > > > > > > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England. > > > > > > The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really. > > > > > > A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit: > > > > > > - What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more? > > > > > > - What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.) > > > > - Russia still kept its seat after the dissolution of the USSR and the People's Republic of China took the place of the Republic of China > > > > -England and Wales, like the cricket board > > > > Plus there is of course no guarantee Scotland would not eventually vote for independence or Northern Ireland for a united Ireland even if we did not leave the EU though the chance would be less than in the event of a No Deal Brexit > > 1. No chance England would (or E&W) would keep a permanent seat. > 2. Ugh. Just ugh!
1. Actually there is as once you are a permanent member you cannot be removed and any new member states asking to be admitted to the Security Council can be vetoed by permanent members. As with Russia after the dissolution of the USSR, England and Wales as the largest successor state would likely take the UK's place
I have great sympathy with his view. My daughter who is non political said yesterday she was ashamed at the way we are making ourselves a laughing stock. It takes something for her to comment
Comments
> For PB fans of FPTP:
>
> Narendra Modi's BJP won 303 seats of 543 in India's parliament on only 37.5% of the vote. Overall, his allies in the National Democratic Alliance pushed the total up to 358 seats.
Most Nationalists e.g. Modi, Trump, Salvini etc have won on under 50% of the vote. Even Bolsonaro failed to get over 50% in the first round in Brazil.
FPTP is thus the best hope for Farage
> After staff offered her tickets for the all-English clubs Champions' League Final, Theresa May a cricket fan, politely declined
>
>
>
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-racism-row-over-brexiteers-tweet-a4156136.html
>
> There’s no accounting for taste but maybe she didn’t want to be told the realities of brexit by Klopp!😀
Or risk the booing a la Osborne 2012
> It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party
>
> What of the Conservatives ?
>
> If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP?
>
> If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it.
If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway
"But in the cold light of day, are we sure we want a Government that ignores half the population?"
When has is been otherwise - Blair perhaps very sporadically, and the coalition for an instant or two.
"May and Corbyn have been quite brave"
May has shown fortitude beyond measure. Brave though? Neither of them have presided over the slightest scrap of new political thinking. They're both horribly defensive politicians.
"Ultimately one or the other will prevail." [hard leave/hard remain]
Not a chance either will happen. Hard leave is going to attract mitigation like fruit flys on a Farage. and hard remain is just poppycock.
> > @rottenborough said:
>
> > This seems odd. Why so many Maths/Comp sci people not able to pay off their student debt and thus will be written off? Higher than English and History.
>
> >
>
> > https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1134103738182963202
>
>
>
>
>
> I can't be the only one to notice that philosophy is missing from that list. That makes it pretty clear to me that philosophy is the only subject that is clearly and unambiguously positive for the country.
>
> Combined with politics and economics?
Presumably they come under social studies?
> > @stodge said:
> > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party
> >
> > What of the Conservatives ?
> >
> > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP?
> >
> > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it.
>
> If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway
Farage must dream of A50 being revoked.
https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-urges-peterborough-voters-to-turn-their-back-on-divisive-nationalism-of-nigel-farage-s-brexit-party-at-by-election-1-8946702
Farage rocks up over the weekend for another rally.
> So - other than Rory stalking the country (said with humorous affection) - has anything happened today?
Just another anti semitism scandal within Labour.
So business as usual.
"Which leads to a sensitive discussion as to how far away from the actual frontier checks need to be in order to not be understood as border checks. Five miles? Ten miles? Belfast? The Port of Larne?"
++++++++++++++++++++++
That's a technical discussion to have between the UK and Irish governments (who are, of course, both signatories to the Good Friday Agreement).
What it is not, is some killer argument for the impossibilty of spot checks away from the border.
Furthermore, from a technical point of view, neither Eire nor the UK will be stopping vehicles in the road. Instead, there will be occasional checks at the origin and destination to ensure that what was declared was what actually arrived.
You know, like happens under the system between Canada and the US.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @rcs1000 said:
> > >
> > > The key point that is missed by both sides is that getting their way won't make the other side go away. The nationalists will still be there if we stay in the EU, and the internationalists won't change their mind or flee the country if we leave.
> > >
> > ----------
> >
> > The solution is to break up the UK. English nationalists will get a state called England again, and by turning Europe into the glue that binds the former nations of the UK, it will allow us to have a healthier and more constructive attitude to European integration.
>
> England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
Link to the polling the English would rather break up the union than stay in the EU
That is some claim
> Gordon Brown has been campaigning in Peterborough for the Labour Party. Well make your own minds up but this could now be record low vote for Labour.
>
> https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-urges-peterborough-voters-to-turn-their-back-on-divisive-nationalism-of-nigel-farage-s-brexit-party-at-by-election-1-8946702
>
> Farage rocks up over the weekend for another rally.
Well that should seal the Brexit Party victory then!
Brown compared Farage to Trump, Putin and Le Pen in a rallying call to local Labour Party members at a Holiday Inn
> > @rcs1000 said:
> >
> > The mistake you (and a lot of other No Dealers) make is to think that the EU want us in the backstop. The reality is the backstop is at least as uncomfortable to the EU as to us.
> >
> > It leaves us in a customs union with they EU, with no barriers to the flow of (compliant*) goods between the two.
> >
> > But it also involves no Freedom of Movement or fees. From a purely theoretical perspective, it would allow to us (for example) remove all worker and environmental protection, and use this to get our costs down.
> >
> > Given the EU extracts fees from other countries in a similar position, and requires bodies to make sure that neither side engages in a race to the bottom as far as regulation goes, this is not a state they want to be in.
> >
> > Furthermore, the backstop is only applicable in the event that:
> > (a) we cannot agree an FTA and
> > (b) no technical solution like the US/Canada system for the preclearance of trucks is implemented**
> >
> > If the EU is not sincerely working towards either of these, then we are free to go to international arbitration***.
> >
> > So what are we scared of? If the EU is not sincere in wanting an FTA or a technical solution, we have a mechanism for departure. If they are sincere, then it's not an issue.
> >
> > * Compliant means meets EU standards for voltage, radio emissions, etc.
> > ** Yes, Canada and the US have a system for preclearing shipments.
> > *** The UK happily signs up to international arbitration all the time
>
> Indeed. I’ve been arguing similarly for months; I assumed people
> Finally understanding this would lead to the deal passing.
>
> But it didn’t because:
>
> A) the opposition was entrenched and consists of no compromise no dealers and no brexiters
>
>
>
> So the question I ponder is this; would good salesmanship get the dal over the line?
The salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
Eighteen months earlier
The salesmanship of the manifesto was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
Did May, the people who surround her and the rest of the Conservative leadership and government learn nothing from the GE ?
How many people could fuck up so badly as the Conservative leadership did at the GE and then do nothing to ensure that a similar fuck up couldn't happen again ?
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @kle4 said:
> > > > @kle4 said:
> > >
> > > > > @kle4 said:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > On topic the key as ever remains Labour MPs from Leave seats.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > &tip them towards the WA especially if Labpur policy shifts to EUref2 or revoke.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > With 286 MPs already having voted for the WA at MV3, 50 Labour MPs added on top of that makes 336 and a majority
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > It's touching how you are the only person in the country still holding out for the Labour leavers.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I am not holding out, I would rather enjoy seeing Yvette Cooper and Gloria Del Piero and Ed Miliband and Dennis Skinner lose their seats to the Brexit Party as they would on today's Yougov, if they fail to deliver Brexit.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > However a Withdrawal Agreement remains the best solution for Brexit and it will only be delivered with Labour MPs from Leave seats votes that is a fact
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Well yes, it is fact it will only be delivered that way, it is not a fact or even a likely occurence it will happen. You keep falling back on the same trick as the no dealers - 'It will happen because it must happen'.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It may happen because if Labour MPs arty
> > >
> > > They. faced. the. choice. already.
> > >
> > > It was quite apparent some time ago it was the WA, or it might well be no deal or no brexit. They still said no.
> > >
> > > Your reasoning, unintentionally, oor.
> > >
> > > I happen to have more respect for their intellect than the idea they could not see 2 feet in front of themselves when rejecting the WA over and over and over.
> >
> > Far beyond me to comment on the intellect of n allow any form of Brexit.
> >
> > Exhibit A: Lisa Nandy
> >
> > https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1133295790120734721?s=20
> >
> > https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1132772199004332032?s=20
>
> They thought that by voting down the WA, they could (a) do immense harm to the Conservatives and (b) remain unscathed.
>
> (a) was correct (b) wasn't.
As Nandy has now finally realised
https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1132780249085882371?s=20
>
> That's a technical discussion to have between the UK and Irish governments (who are, of course, both signatories to the Good Friday Agreement).
>
> What it is not, is some killer argument for the impossibilty of spot checks away from the border.
>
> Furthermore, from a technical point of view, neither Eire nor the UK will be stopping vehicles in the road. Instead, there will be occasional checks at the origin and destination to ensure that what was declared was what actually arrived.
>
> You know, like happens under the system between Canada and the US.
-----------
In order to declare victory, it's not sufficient to find some type of check away from the border that is acceptable, but to design a system that does away with the need for regulatory alignment and a customs union. You won't find any useful lessons from Canada and the US, which has a hard border.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @stodge said:
> > > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party
> > >
> > > What of the Conservatives ?
> > >
> > > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP?
> > >
> > > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it.
> >
> > If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway
>
> Farage must dream of A50 being revoked.
Farage's ideal scenario would be for PM Hunt to implement a Commons vote to revoke Article 50 without even another referendum in October, in that scenario he might as well start measuring the curtains at No 10
> @williamglenn said:
> "Which leads to a sensitive discussion as to how far away from the actual frontier checks need to be in order to not be understood as border checks. Five miles? Ten miles? Belfast? The Port of Larne?"
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> That's a technical discussion to have between the UK and Irish governments (who are, of course, both signatories to the Good Friday Agreement).
>
> What it is not, is some killer argument for the impossibilty of spot checks away from the border.
>
> Furthermore, from a technical point of view, neither Eire nor the UK will be stopping vehicles in the road. Instead, there will be occasional checks at the origin and destination to ensure that what was declared was what actually arrived.
>
> You know, like happens under the system between Canada and the US.
The whole Irish border thing is a non-issue. If it becomes an issue then the communities along the border will be belly-aching to do something or other, as the lorry-loads of widgets crossing the border for tax reasons are disturbing their sleep.
The EU has yet to make recommendations about hair-nets made from human skin. (No idea if there is such a thing, but seems sufficiently ickey and unlikely.) Do they need to do so?
Governments should try to ignore as much as possible.
>
> England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
---------
I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @stodge said:
> > > > It may happen because if Labour MPs from Leave seats do not vote for it they will be faced with the nightmare of a Revoke v No Deal choice in October given both Macron and likely Germany will veto further extension. Do the former and lose their seats, fail to vote for revoke and allow No Deal and they lose their party
> > > >
> > > > What of the Conservatives ?
> > > >
> > > > If it's Revoke vs No Deal how would your MP vote? How would YOU vote if you were an MP?
> > > >
> > > > If the Conservatives back Revoke, BXP will sweep them aside at the next GE. If the Conservatives back No Deal and it's as severe as the CBI and Bank of England think, the Party will own the dislocation and the damage along with BXP and those in Labour who back it.
> > >
> > > If the Tories back revoke of course the Brexit Party would trounce them which is why they must leave Deal or No Deal now and of course that likely can only be delivered under a Brexiteer leader after an autumn general election anyway
> >
> > Farage must dream of A50 being revoked.
>
> Farage's ideal scenario would be for PM Hunt to implement a Commons vote to revoke Article 50 without even another referendum in October, in that scenario he might as well start measuring the curtains at No 10
Sure. The Conservative vote would simply crater in that scenario.
> > @Mortimer said:
> > > @rcs1000 said:
> > >
> > > The mistake you (and a lot of other No Dealers) make is to think that the EU want us in the backstop. The reality is the backstop is at least as uncomfortable to the EU as to us.
> > >
> > > It leaves us in a customs union with they EU, with no barriers to the flow of (compliant*) goods between the two.
> > >
> > > But it also involves no Freedom of Movement or fees. From a purely theoretical perspective, it would allow to us (for example) remove all worker and environmental protection, and use this to get our costs down.
> > >
> > > Given the EU extracts fees from other countries in a similar position, and requires bodies to make sure that neither side engages in a race to the bottom as far as regulation goes, this is not a state they want to be in.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, the backstop is only applicable in the event that:
> > > (a) we cannot agree an FTA and
> > > (b) no technical solution like the US/Canada system for the preclearance of trucks is implemented**
> > >
> > > If the EU is not sincerely working towards either of these, then we are free to go to international arbitration***.
> > >
> > > So what are we scared of? If the EU is not sincere in wanting an FTA or a technical solution, we have a mechanism for departure. If they are sincere, then it's not an issue.
> > >
> > > * Compliant means meets EU standards for voltage, radio emissions, etc.
> > > ** Yes, Canada and the US have a system for preclearing shipments.
> > > *** The UK happily signs up to international arbitration all the time
> >
> > Indeed. I’ve been arguing similarly for months; I assumed people
> > Finally understanding this would lead to the deal passing.
> >
> > But it didn’t because:
> >
> > A) the opposition was entrenched and consists of no compromise no dealers and no brexiters
> >
> >
> >
> > So the question I ponder is this; would good salesmanship get the dal over the line?
>
> The salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
>
> Eighteen months earlier
>
> The salesmanship of the manifesto was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
>
> Did May, the people who surround her and the rest of the Conservative leadership and government learn nothing from the GE ?
>
> How many people could fuck up so badly as the Conservative leadership did at the GE and then do nothing to ensure that a similar fuck up couldn't happen again ?
Absolutely.
The manifesto was entirely sellable - ‘you’ll never have to sell your house to get care - and we’re doubling the amount your heirs wil get to keep in the unlikely event that you do need residential care in your final days’
> Well, I am sure , I am not alone. I have now voted LibDems twice, a bad habit is developing, but in a GE, I would vote for them again.
> It is worth one 5 year period to kill Brexit, and ensure no Corbyn, and then revert to whatever new sensible party emerges.
If you think Brexit can be killed in 5, 10 or 20 years then you are sorely mistaken. Just because you might manage to stop it now won't make the anger go away, nor the causes of Brexit. All you will do is ensure that next time around it is far more extreme.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > @rcs1000 said:
> > > >
> > > > The key point that is missed by both sides is that getting their way won't make the other side go away. The nationalists will still be there if we stay in the EU, and the internationalists won't change their mind or flee the country if we leave.
> > > >
> > > ----------
> > >
> > > The solution is to break up the UK. English nationalists will get a state called England again, and by turning Europe into the glue that binds the former nations of the UK, it will allow us to have a healthier and more constructive attitude to European integration.
> >
> > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
>
> Link to the polling the English would rather break up the union than stay in the EU
>
> That is some claim
52% of English voters say a Scottish vote for independence in a second referendum would still be a price worth paying in order to deliver Brexit (Including 77% of Tory voters and 88% of Leave voters)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed
> > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> ---------
>
> I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
>
The only transformation will be the removal of the Scottish Remain vote which makes it more likely we never rejoin.
> > @rottenborough said:
> > This seems odd. Why so many Maths/Comp sci people not able to pay off their student debt and thus will be written off? Higher than English and History.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1134103738182963202
>
> I can't be the only one to notice that philosophy is missing from that list. That makes it pretty clear to me that philosophy is the only subject that is clearly and unambiguously positive for the country.
I thought - therefore it was not there!
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @Mortimer said:
> > > > @rcs1000 said:
> > > >
> > > > The mistake you (and a lot of other No Dealers) make is to think that the EU want us in the backstop. The reality is the backstop is at least as uncomfortable to the EU as to us.
> > > >
> > > > If the EU is not sincerely working towards either of these, then we are free to go to international arbitration***.
> > > >
> > > > So what are we scared of? If the EU is not sincere in wanting an FTA or a technical solution, we have a mechanism for departure. If they are sincere, then it's not an issue.
> > > >
> > > > * Compliant means meets EU standards for voltage, radio emissions, etc.
> > > > ** Yes, Canada and the US have a system for preclearing shipments.
> > > > *** The UK happily signs up to international arbitration all the time
> > >
> > > Indeed. I’ve been arguing similarly for months; I assumed people
> > > Finally understanding this would lead to the deal passing.
> > >
> > > But it didn’t because:
> > >
> > > A) the opposition was entrenched and consists of no compromise no dealers and no brexiters
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So the question I ponder is this; would good salesmanship get the dal over the line?
> >
> > The salesmanship of the deal was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
> >
> > Eighteen months earlier
> >
> > The salesmanship of the manifesto was SO APPALLINGLY BAD
> >
> > Did May, the people who surround her and the rest of the Conservative leadership and government learn nothing from the GE ?
> >
> > How many people could fuck up so badly as the Conservative leadership did at the GE and then do nothing to ensure that a similar fuck up couldn't happen again ?
>
> Absolutely.
>
> The manifesto was entirely sellable - ‘you’ll never have to sell your house to get care - and we’re doubling the amount your heirs wil get to keep in the unlikely event that you do need residential care in your final days’
I agree, I watched it live and then the next day as well and I could not believe what a horlicks she made of a good argument. She could even have mentioned that the alternative was the young struggling to get on the housing ladder or raising young children would otherwise have to pay more tax.
Also I do not think she created the bad arguments, that must have been her advisers.
> > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> ---------
>
> I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
>
It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7649/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-corbyn-may-and-the-death-of-british-compromise#latest
...site, eliminates the problem completely. There seem to be plenty who prefer chaos to compromise, but I’m sure someone posted a fix (right click on the mouse?) the other day
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > > @rcs1000 said:
> > > > >
> > > > > The key point that is missed by both sides is that getting their way won't make the other side go away. The nationalists will still be there if we stay in the EU, and the internationalists won't change their mind or flee the country if we leave.
> > > > >
> > > > ----------
> > > >
> > > > The solution is to break up the UK. English nationalists will get a state called England again, and by turning Europe into the glue that binds the former nations of the UK, it will allow us to have a healthier and more constructive attitude to European integration.
> > >
> > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> >
> > Link to the polling the English would rather break up the union than stay in the EU
> >
> > That is some claim
>
> 52% of English voters say a Scottish vote for independence in a second referendum would still be a price worth paying in order to deliver Brexit (Including 77% of Tory voters and 88% of Leave voters)
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed
Utter madness
> Small point but why do people post comments they deem off topic preceded by ‘OT’, when that could just as easily mean ‘on topic’ which people also precede posts with at times?
Shouldn't you have preceeded that post with OT?
Pesonally I think OT should only be used for Off-topic, the assumption being most posts are repalted to the current topic or previous posts in the thread.
This is the best project IMHO
https://www.frozenark.org/
So get prepared the big lead article from a Tory politician tomorrow is, de dah, de dah roll of drums - Mark Francois.
Under FPTP and with the wide geographic base of support that TBP has (and assuming some sort of Brexit betrayal that caused the GE), I think you'd find the Leavers would have the majority in parliament.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > >
> > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > ---------
> >
> > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> >
>
> It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
>
> Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
>
> And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
"Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible"
Maybe.
What actually happens if there is another referendum and we vote to leave again?
We have to negotiate a "no-deal" package. Which of course will be a deal.
We also have to understand what remain would look like. If we stay, can we get the EU parliament to relocate to London?
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > >
> > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > ---------
> >
> > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> >
>
> It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
>
> Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
>
> And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/beauty/fashion/a20085515/camilla-outfit-royal-wedding/
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > >
> > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > > ---------
> > >
> > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > >
> >
> > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
> >
> > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
> >
> > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
>
> The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
>
> Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them.
England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot!
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > >
> > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > ---------
> >
> > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> >
>
> It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
>
> Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
>
> And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
Judging by the polling, it is entirely possible that if the public are given a choice between revoking A50 and going for a No Deal Brexit, they might opt for the latter.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > >
> > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > > ---------
> > >
> > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > >
> >
> > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
> >
> > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
> >
> > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
>
> The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
>
> Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
"Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. "
Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134544472442843136?s=20
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > >
> > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > > > ---------
> > > >
> > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
> > >
> > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
> > >
> > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
> >
> > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
> >
> > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
>
> Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them.
>
> England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot!
Remind me what student tuition fees are in England compared with Scotland.
Or where the English parliament is.
Or why the Conservatives - the so-called party of the union - thought it a good idea to stop WFA in England but to keep paying it in Scotland.
That's going to go down well with people who actually have to work....
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134542859611381761?s=20
>
"There's too much focus on the capital. Provincialism's what we need."
> "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. "
>
> Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
Not a good enough reason, not when we English are getting taken for mugs.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > >
> > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > > > ---------
> > > >
> > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
> > >
> > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
> > >
> > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
> >
> > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
> >
> > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
>
> "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. "
>
> Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
So no reason beyond tradition ?
> > @Benpointer said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > > > > ---------
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
> > > >
> > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
> > > >
> > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
> > >
> > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
> > >
> > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
> >
> > Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them.
> >
> > England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot!
>
> Remind me what student tuition fees are in England compared with Scotland.
>
> Or where the English parliament is.
>
> Or why the Conservatives - the so-called party of the union - thought it a good idea to stop WFA in England but to keep paying it in Scotland.
Honestly, your sense of English hurt is vastly over-developed. England has, by virtue of its size the biggest influence on the UK government. We English could easily vote in a government that removed student fees, or set up an English parliament if we wanted (I have no idea what WFA is btw). It's just that the electorate has chosen not to.
What's the difference between capitalism and communism?
Under Capitalism, man exploits man.
Under Communism, the reverse is the case.
> https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1133995615669633025?s=20
There's more to life than the consumption of ever increasing amounts of imported tat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0
> https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1133995615669633025?s=20
Well hurrah for that! Well done her.
> > @Omnium said:
> > "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. "
> >
> > Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
>
> Not a good enough reason, not when we English are getting taken for mugs.
So start an English Independence from the UK party.
>
> So start an English Independence form the UK party.
You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
This Is Capitalism.
thisiscommunism.
> Personally I think OT should only be used for Off-topic, the assumption being most posts are repalted to the current topic or previous posts in the thread.
>
> On PB?!!!
Mmmm... Fair point.
> > @Philip_Thompson said:
> > > @Omnium said:
> > > "Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England. "
> > >
> > > Because we have always valued it. Generation upon generation. Thick or thin.
> >
> > Not a good enough reason, not when we English are getting taken for mugs.
>
> So start an English Independence from the UK party.
There already is the English Democrats
https://www.englishdemocrats.party
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @Benpointer said:
> > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > England voted Leave as did Wales and polling is clear English voters would rather break up the UK than stay in the EU, not break up the UK to rejoin it
> > > > > > ---------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm willing to gamble that the break up of the UK would be such a seismic political change that it would transform attitudes.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It amazes me how these English leave voters want to trash our union
> > > > >
> > > > > Fortunately the trend is towards a referendum as no deal becomes politically impossible
> > > > >
> > > > > And for brexiteers saying they could collapse the government and Farage would be PM they need to understand in the make up of any new parliament the remainers would almost certainly have a majority
> > > >
> > > > The union in which England is treated as a second class nation ?
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you should tell us why the union should be valued in England.
> > >
> > > Good grief - if there's a littler Little Englander than another_richard I've yet to come across them.
> > >
> > > England a 2nd class nation within the UK? What rot!
> >
> > Remind me what student tuition fees are in England compared with Scotland.
> >
> > Or where the English parliament is.
> >
> > Or why the Conservatives - the so-called party of the union - thought it a good idea to stop WFA in England but to keep paying it in Scotland.
>
> Honestly, your sense of English hurt is vastly over-developed. England has, by virtue of its size the biggest influence on the UK government. We English could easily vote in a government that removed student fees, or set up an English parliament if we wanted (I have no idea what WFA is btw). It's just that the electorate has chosen not to.
Winter Fuel Allowance
And its that sort of attitude which allows England to lose out time and time again it may only be the change of a 50/50 situation to a 49/51 situation but those little differences compound up.
For that reason I admire the SNP as they are always willing to fight their hardest on behalf of Scotland.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1133995615669633025?s=20
>
> There's more to life than the consumption of ever increasing amounts of imported tat.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0
True but if unemployment starts to rise in New Zealand and wages fall not sure all New Zealanders will be grateful for their 'increased well being'
Morph
Down with the kids
Spiritual journey
The clown
Mr 360 spin
Traditional values
Vain & vacant
"The schemer"
Mother
Splash
Hard man
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134542859611381761
>
>
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134544472442843136
>
>
>
> Soviet joke:
>
> What's the difference between capitalism and communism?
>
> Under Capitalism, man exploits man.
>
> Under Communism, the reverse is the case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVdomcsjBA
> > @Benpointer said:
> >
> > So start an English Independence form the UK party.
>
> You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really.
A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit:
- What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more?
- What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.)
There's more to life than the consumption of ever increasing amounts of imported tat.
++++++++
Candy Crush... you're talking about Candy Crush, right?
> > @HYUFD said:
> > https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1133995615669633025?s=20
>
> Well hurrah for that! Well done her.
I don't agree but it is the argument a lot of people made to me in favour of Brexit!
> There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons ::
>
> Morph
> Down with the kids
> Spiritual journey
> The clown
> Mr 360 spin
> Traditional values
> Vain & vacant
> "The schemer"
> Mother
> Splash
> Hard man
>
>
>
The posh one
The bland one
The weird one
The brown one
The black one
The trendy one
The scouse one
The old one
The fanatical one
The unknown one
Boris
or
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Who ?
Boris
> https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1133995615669633025?s=20
Wellbeing meaning whatever the government tells you is wellbeing.
> > @Pulpstar said:
> > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons ::
> >
> > Morph
> > Down with the kids
> > Spiritual journey
> > The clown
> > Mr 360 spin
> > Traditional values
> > Vain & vacant
> > "The schemer"
> > Mother
> > Splash
> > Hard man
> >
> >
> >
>
> The posh one
> The bland one
> The weird one
> The brown one
> The black one
> The trendy one
> The scouse one
> The old one
> The fanatical one
> The unknown one
> Boris
>
> or
>
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Who ?
> Boris
It’s hard enough remembering seven dwarves, never mind fourteen.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1133995615669633025?s=20
> >
> > There's more to life than the consumption of ever increasing amounts of imported tat.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0
>
> True but if unemployment starts to rise in New Zealand and wages fall not sure all New Zealanders will be grateful for their 'increased well being'
You are completely missing the point.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/david-cameron-to-lead-advisory-board-of-ai-firm/ar-AACciNK?MSCC=1559334783&ocid=spartandhp
> @another_richard said:
> There's more to life than the consumption of ever increasing amounts of imported tat.
>
> ++++++++
>
> Candy Crush... you're talking about Candy Crush, right?
Super Stacker and Phage Wars.
Wellbeing meaning whatever the government tells you is wellbeing.
+++++++++++
Gross National Happiness has not been an obvious success in Bhutan.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons ::
> > >
> > > Morph
> > > Down with the kids
> > > Spiritual journey
> > > The clown
> > > Mr 360 spin
> > > Traditional values
> > > Vain & vacant
> > > "The schemer"
> > > Mother
> > > Splash
> > > Hard man
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The posh one
> > The bland one
> > The weird one
> > The brown one
> > The black one
> > The trendy one
> > The scouse one
> > The old one
> > The fanatical one
> > The unknown one
> > Boris
> >
> > or
> >
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Who ?
> > Boris
>
> It’s hard enough remembering seven dwarves, never mind fourteen.
Surely there are quite a few posh ones - how many went to Eton?
(And out of interest, how many went to a bog-standard comprehensive?)
Here’s an idea:
We get Harry.
You can keep Charles and William.
https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1134526368136466440
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @Benpointer said:
> > >
> > > So start an English Independence form the UK party.
> >
> > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
>
> The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really.
>
> A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit:
>
> - What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more?
>
> - What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.)
- Russia still kept its seat after the dissolution of the USSR and the People's Republic of China took the place of the Republic of China
-England and Wales, like the cricket board
Plus there is of course no guarantee Scotland would not eventually vote for independence or Northern Ireland for a united Ireland even if we did not leave the EU though the chance would be less than in the event of a No Deal Brexit
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @Pulpstar said:
> > > > There's a Tory leadership contender for all seasons ::
> > > >
> > > > Morph
> > > > Down with the kids
> > > > Spiritual journey
> > > > The clown
> > > > Mr 360 spin
> > > > Traditional values
> > > > Vain & vacant
> > > > "The schemer"
> > > > Mother
> > > > Splash
> > > > Hard man
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > The posh one
> > > The bland one
> > > The weird one
> > > The brown one
> > > The black one
> > > The trendy one
> > > The scouse one
> > > The old one
> > > The fanatical one
> > > The unknown one
> > > Boris
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Who ?
> > > Boris
> >
> > It’s hard enough remembering seven dwarves, never mind fourteen.
>
> Surely there are quite a few posh ones - how many went to Eton?
>
> (An out of interest, how many went to a bog-standard comprehensive?)
Poshness is relative.
So Jesse Norman is the posh one and the others are the sort of people who had to buy there own furniture / castle.
> > @Benpointer said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > @Benpointer said:
> > > >
> > > > So start an English Independence form the UK party.
> > >
> > > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
> >
> > The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really.
> >
> > A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit:
> >
> > - What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more?
> >
> > - What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.)
>
> - Russia still kept its seat after the dissolution of the USSR and the People's Republic of China took the place of the Republic of China
>
> -England and Wales, like the cricket board
>
> Plus there is of course no guarantee Scotland would not eventually vote for independence or Northern Ireland for a united Ireland even if we did not leave the EU though the chance would be less than in the event of a No Deal Brexit
1. No chance England would (or E&W) would keep a permanent seat.
2. Ugh. Just ugh!
> David Cameron to join the advisory board of Washington-based AI company, Afiniti
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/david-cameron-to-lead-advisory-board-of-ai-firm/ar-AACciNK?MSCC=1559334783&ocid=spartandhp
There's a company specialising in Artificial Incompetence? Who'd have thought.
Or is that only when John McDonnell is talking about it?
> Rory Stewart makes adult social care a campaign issue:
>
> https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1134526368136466440
At last an adult in the running.
criticising “stupid, colonial English idiots” who voted for Brexit.
“I am sick to death of Brexit,“ he continued to cheers from the crowd. ”I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.”
He added: “I’m ashamed of my country for what it has done. It’s torn people apart.”
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/elton-john-attacks-brexit-and-says-hes-not-a-stupid-colonial-english-idiot-during-concert/ar-AACbLut?ocid=spartanntp
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @Benpointer said:
> > > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > > @Benpointer said:
> > > > >
> > > > > So start an English Independence form the UK party.
> > > >
> > > > You couldn't get them to vote for it, so you have to do it by stealth. You start a UK Independence Party, and then as the UK leaves the EU, bits of it get torn off, leaving an independent England.
> > >
> > > The hard-line Brexiteers are just a bunch of anarchist wreckers really.
> > >
> > > A couple of questions for those prepared to accept the break-up of the Union as the price of Brexit:
> > >
> > > - What do they think should happen to the UK's permanent seat on the UN security council after the UK is no more?
> > >
> > > - What will the post-break-up UK be called? (Presumably just England, or England-and-Wales until Wales goes. Little Britain would of course be more appropriate.)
> >
> > - Russia still kept its seat after the dissolution of the USSR and the People's Republic of China took the place of the Republic of China
> >
> > -England and Wales, like the cricket board
> >
> > Plus there is of course no guarantee Scotland would not eventually vote for independence or Northern Ireland for a united Ireland even if we did not leave the EU though the chance would be less than in the event of a No Deal Brexit
>
> 1. No chance England would (or E&W) would keep a permanent seat.
> 2. Ugh. Just ugh!
1. Actually there is as once you are a permanent member you cannot be removed and any new member states asking to be admitted to the Security Council can be vetoed by permanent members. As with Russia after the dissolution of the USSR, England and Wales as the largest successor state would likely take the UK's place
> > @williamglenn said:
> > Rory Stewart makes adult social care a campaign issue:
> >
> > https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1134526368136466440
>
> At last an adult in the running.
>
It is refreshing to see a politician actually thinking
> Sir Elton John has said he feels “ashamed” of the UK while seemingly
> criticising “stupid, colonial English idiots” who voted for Brexit.
>
> “I am sick to death of Brexit,“ he continued to cheers from the crowd. ”I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.”
>
> He added: “I’m ashamed of my country for what it has done. It’s torn people apart.”
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/elton-john-attacks-brexit-and-says-hes-not-a-stupid-colonial-english-idiot-during-concert/ar-AACbLut?ocid=spartanntp
I have great sympathy with his view. My daughter who is non political said yesterday she was ashamed at the way we are making ourselves a laughing stock. It takes something for her to comment
> Sir Elton John has said he feels “ashamed” of the UK while seemingly
> criticising “stupid, colonial English idiots” who voted for Brexit.
>
> “I am sick to death of Brexit,“ he continued to cheers from the crowd. ”I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.”
>
> He added: “I’m ashamed of my country for what it has done. It’s torn people apart.”
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/elton-john-attacks-brexit-and-says-hes-not-a-stupid-colonial-english-idiot-during-concert/ar-AACbLut?ocid=spartanntp
Sounds like a boost for Brexit support.
Nurse!!
> https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1134537560691290112
>
> Nurse!!
Deluded
> > @ydoethur said:
> > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134542859611381761
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134544472442843136
> >
> >
> >
> > Soviet joke:
> >
> > What's the difference between capitalism and communism?
> >
> > Under Capitalism, man exploits man.
> >
> > Under Communism, the reverse is the case.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVdomcsjBA
If he thinks I'm going to hold my house in common with anyone other than my family, he can think again.